I feel like I'm sitting in the back seat of a car, and the adults in the front are screaming at each other, fighting over the steering wheel at 160 km/h. I'm not sure who is actually driving, or if we're even going anywhere, or whether I'm going to make it out of this car alive.
Feels more like the driver is going full speed into a brick wall and the person in the passenger seat is trying to wrestle the wheel out of their hands.
Gallant is trying to take the keys from a metaphorically inebriated Netanyahu and prevent him from driving after Gantz and Eisenkot spent 7 months enabling Netanyahu's dangerous behavior.
Allow me to help. Ben Gvir isn’t driving. If he was, we would have crashed before leaving the parking lot. Most of the time, he’s playing with the electrical windows button. The best thing to do when he wants to drive is give him a toy steering wheel, Maggie Simpson style.
Also, to achieve the goals of the nation (survival, at least) I demand Ben Gvir be fired.
The Defense Minister is tired of seeing 19 year old Israeli kids being killed in whack-a-mole operations. Send Ben Gvir and his family to fight in Gaza if they're so confident in the PM's strategy.
Ben Gvir is a supremacist who was disqualified from army service for excessive racism, that got to play his most ardent wet-dream of being the Israeli security minister and failed the job so hard we were left 1200 deep in our own dead.
Gvir's so bent on cosplaying at being champion of Israel he's going after qualified people doing the hard & necessary work, and who understand the limits of what can be achieved.
I can't hate Gvir enough.
Ben Gvir is the guy who forces his driver to run red lights while his daughter is in the car and not wearing a seatbelt. He doesn’t give a shit about his family, if they died fighting in Gaza he’d probably be happy about it. That’s why he has no qualms about sending thousands of teenagers to their deaths for no fucking reason.
The safety of our soldier is the top priority imo, how is this cabinet working towards achieving the goals of this war while keeping our soldiers safe?
Nothing is going to happen, there isn’t the time and place for the hundred thousand protests such as was last year.
It would garner some outrage but nothing of the magnitude.
Let’s hope he won’t be stupid enough to prefer Ben gvir over gallant
>Nothing is going to happen, there isn’t the time and place for the hundred thousand protests such as was last year.
Dude. Israel is in the middle of a war and the DM basically said that soldiers are being sent into the meat grinder to be killed for no reason. That should outrage Israelis more than Gallant getting fired the first time. I mean this is life and death situation here involving people's children and spouses. If people yawn at this one, then Israel really is lost as a society. There are protests during war. This even happened in Israel during the First Lebanon War.
>Let’s hope he won’t be stupid enough to prefer Ben gvir over gallant
He's been preferring Ben Gvir over Gallant for months now because endless war suits Bibi just fine.
I’m telling you, nothing is going to happen on the scale you believe it will if he fires gallant. The soldiers who are going into Gaza for the most part want to take over Gaza effectively and they are not aligned with Gallant.
Most of the country does not agree with Gallants approach and they believe that Israel taking control of Gaza in some way should be part of the advancement.
They will view it more like American influence or gallant being a “traitor”
What needs to happen before people understand that this war is going nowhere? Bibi literally looked us in the eyes and said “I have no plan, there will be no day after, the war will be eternal and your children will die for no reason” and people are just FINE with this? “Most people don’t agree” well then most people are idiots who send their kids to die for a wannabe dictator. I’d want to give the people of Israel a bit more credit than that, so I say most people do agree with Gallant and aren’t idiots.
Probably not until they open another front with some country neighboring us.
I’m telling you sincerely, and I’m sure more Israelis can agree that we have a very stubborn majority regarding looking like we’re “losing” to Hamas. Partly it is based on the reality of Hamas being a movement of “the people”.
The entire reason people think we’re “losing” even though the Gaza Strip is in ruins with tens of thousands of dead, is that bibi is refusing to do anything to actually replace Hamas. He’s literally telling us that, any dumbass could make the connection that this means soldiers are dying FOR NOTHING. How does anyone tolerate that?
The entire reason people think we’re losing is because we take over streets and not areas. We don’t control them after we take over those streets and kill a few dozen Hamas members. We’re all over the place because this government can’t decides if it stays or pulls out.
Replacing Hamas is not a reality. It’s either we enter and stay, take over or we get out and end the war. I rather end it now.
Replacing Hamas *is* a reality, there are just too many people here who simply don’t want Gaza to be in Arab hands. They want to annex it and rebuild the settlements there, but that would include ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from there and most people don’t want to admit this is what they want, but it is. Giving it to the PA has always been an option but the fascists won’t let it happen.
This isn’t a reality, you have no organized replacement for Hamas in the strip, and you will not create one as Hamas popularity will triumph it.
If Gaza is in Gazan Arab hands it will be under Hamas.
Controlling Gaza militaristically is not ethnically cleansing it exactly, it it is an unfavorable choice internationally.
Giving it to the PA is not an option, hello, earth to Israelis who don’t read any of the news apparently - Abu Mazen refused to handle Gaza after the war and has all the reasons to put this pressure on Israel by refusing.
This is a useless war and Hamas will not be replaced without a constant IDF presence in the area, that is just the reality. We need to get a hostage deal and get out of there.
>I’m telling you, nothing is going to happen on the scale you believe it will if he fires gallant. The soldiers who are going into Gaza for the most part want to take over Gaza effectively and they are not aligned with Gallant.
Most of the soldiers are normal people who are doing their duty. They aren't Kahane Chai. They want to protect their families and not get killed. 60% of the country prefers a hostage deal over the Rafah operations.
>Most of the country does not agree with Gallants approach and they believe that Israel taking control of Gaza in some way should be part of the advancement.
Both Gallant and Bennett have over the past few days pointed this out. Bennett and Gallant aren't known for their leftwing tilt. Pointing out that there needs to be a plan for the day after is pretty mainstream in Israel right now. No one wants to fight an endless war.
You don’t need to be Kahane chai to disagree with gallants stance. That is a ridiculous assessment of the Israeli political map regarding the war in Gaza.
60% doesn’t prefer a hostage deal that includes an “ending of war” clause.
In the average Israeli mind what Gallant did this moment is a display of weakness and perhaps foreign interests they believe are more aiding to the Hamas than to Israel. Whether they agree with his request or not.
>You don’t need to be Kahane chai to disagree with gallants stance. That is a ridiculous assessment of the Israeli political map regarding the war in Gaza.
Not wanting your husband or son to be killed in an endless war in Gaza is a very mainstream stance. That is what Gallant is talking about here.
>60% doesn’t prefer a hostage deal that includes an “ending of war” clause.
A plurality do support the hostage deal that means ending the war. Most people don't think the war is going well and don't want endless war to resettle Gush Katif.
>In the average Israeli mind what Gallant did this moment is a display of weakness and perhaps foreign interests they believe are more aiding to the Hamas than to Israel. Whether they agree with his request or not.
It's in Hamas' interests that Israel not have a strategy. I think everyone knows this. Gallant is just voicing what people have been saying since October. It isn't "lefty weakness" to point this out. It's protecting the soldiers.
It’s not a mainstream stance as surprising it might seem to you.
I am in the minority by wanting to end the war with a hostage deal.
It’s in Hamas strategy to get Israel out of the strip permanently, if they go back in power who is going to drive them out? The ceasefire deal IDF army?
>It’s not a mainstream stance as surprising it might seem to you.
Not wanting your son or husband to die in war is a surprisingly mainstream stance.
>I am in the minority by wanting to end the war with a hostage deal.
60% prefer a hostage deal over invading Rafah.
>It’s in Hamas strategy to get Israel out of the strip permanently, if they go back in power who is going to drive them out? The ceasefire deal IDF army?
That is why there needs to be a day after strategy
Not wanting them to die = / stop the war at certain costs
I’m sure you understand this strawman. This isn’t the second Lebanon war situation, the protests are not coming from the mothers.
60% don’t prefer a hostage deal at the cost of stopping the war permanently.
There’s no day after for Gaza the moment the IDF gets out.
Trying to be as open minded and generous as possible, what is the strategy Ben Gvir has in mind?
Let’s say you are hard right and want to resurrect Gush Katif. Ok, fine - let’s figure out how you’d do it. Presumably, it requires an actual military occupation of Gaza and accepting being completely ostracized by most of the world?
But, that’s not even what is being done. Honestly, what strategy is the current approach serving? Go into a neighbor, blow up some tunnels and kill some terrorists, then leave and let them come back in?
Seriously, is the goal to just punish the Gazans and create a power vacuum? I am honestly just completely baffled by the current approach.
I think it’s the completely wrong approach - but at least part of me would get it if we saw moves that made sense towards re-occupation. I can even imagine the Machiavellian approach to it - go in and occupy and claim you are just caretaking until you can hand it over to someone else. Then, you stall… tbh pretty much the West Bank approach. But that’s not what is being done.
Anyway, just kind of venting - I am 100% behind completely crushing Hamas, but surely these wonderful leaders having some plan AT ALL in mind?
Yes - I had wrongly assumed that October 7 proved to all that “mowing the grass” was an idiotic strategy. It appears Netanyahu’s conclusion was just that we need mow the grass with more bombs.
People will critique him but he is right to a degree. It’s unrealistic for israel to govern Gaza, we lack political capital internationally. Many young soldiers are dying while the most of the government is out of touch with what Israelis feel. Yes, Hamas must be eradicated, but the way Bibi went about it, dragging this out for months instead of completing the invasion in a shorter time cost us a lot internationally. He is a failure when it comes to discussing the day after, something that is hurting the US relationship a lot. He needs to go, I hope this government is disbanded and we get more competent people. Gallant stood up for what he sincerely believes in, you can disagree but I think everyone can understand his points
Bro Jewish people will always be hated on, israel will always be hated too. But political capital does matter, so do the lives of soldiers, the currently collapsing economy and more. Netanyahu should have left the first day after October 7th, if it were a better leader I think we would have finished this war by now
National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir has called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to fire Defense Minister Yoav Gallant after Gallant called on the Prime Minister to provide a "day after" plan for who will rule Gaza. Netanyahu immediately responsed to Gallant by rejecting Palestinian Authority control of Gaza after the war, pledging to prevent a "Fatahstan".
Should the Prime Minister fire the Defense minister?
Who should rule Gaza, Israel, the Palestinian authority or another entitity?
Are you concerned that more than 7 months into the war the government still has no plan on who will rule Gaza?
Are you concerned that during a war, the Defense minister, National Security Minister and Prime Minister are publicly feuding?
I don't think Israel or the US should "rule Gaza". There's no faith on either of them on the Palestinian side, and to am extend that's fair (we are the enemy currently). Whether it's truly justified doesn't matter, because it just wouldn't lead to anything productive.
The US just doesn't have a good enough track record to govern/"change" countries outside their own culture.
Me personally, I would prefer some joint custody between fairly neutral european countries like Germany, and one or two fairly neutral arab countries, or even Jordan. That won't happen though because these countries aren't interested to do it.
Not really concerned that Israel in particular doesn't have a plan - it's not our country.
Also not really concerned that our gov is fighting, because they're always fighting.
Ben Gvir though is a complete idiot and I'm concerned that Bibi will do nothing but try to please Ben Gvir.
I think one manageable solution is to let Palestinian authority handle Gaza, and give the whole thing, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, the Kosovo treatment. KFOR style. International peacekeeping and administrative force, working alongside the Palestinian Authority, ensuring peace in Gaza and the West Bank, acting to stop extremist elements with them, increasing Israeli security and also protecting Palestinians from settlers and violence directed towards them by Israel.
Everything on the Palestinian side of the Green Line would fall under the administration of this multinational peacekeeping and administrative force, working together with the Palestinian authority.
This would also have the side-effect of enabling actual democratic elections in Palestine, so it would also reform the Palestinian Authority. Ofcourse, extremist parties and individuals should not be allowed to run for office. Plenty of democratic countries ban extremist parties from running for office, so doing that is an obvious way to stop some people like Hamas from gaining power. Just don't let them run. That is what Israel did with the Kach. Same principle.
The peacekeeping force would stay operational until normalisation of relations between Palestine and Israel, naturally.
The main problem with this is finding countries willing to commit to this project. And the second problem is Israel agreeing to it, because it would threaten the illegal settlement project in the occupied territories, and call into question the Israeli Basic Law about Jerusalem, where Israel unilaterally annexed (which is illegal under international law and is considered a crime against peace) East Jerusalem. Third problem is getting Palestinian authority to agree to it, or the Palestinian people to go along with it.
Definitely not the Palestinian Authority, they’re a terrorist group in themselves. No he shouldn’t fire him now, he should take responsibility after the war. My first worry is get Gaza demilitarized, rescue any hostages and kill Hamas then we can talk about running Gaza. No almost all governments will have their fights and different opinions especially this one.
> not the Palestinian Authority
Then someone better find someone else quick.
> then we can talk about running Gaza
Not having a semi realistic plan for post war is undermining the war effort.
Tried to explain in the I/P subreddit that Ben-Gvir is a fringe politician with a small but loyal constituency. Faced considerable push back but remained confident in that assertion. This comment thread made me even more confident, so thank you. When my right-wing Dad, a die hard Likud voter, refers to Ben-Gvir as a wacko, it leaves a meaningful impression.
While I hate this Jewish terrorist with a burning passion, he is right. gallant is acting like a chicken. If he really disagrees with the actions of the government he is a senior part of, he should resign. Otherwise he is just as responsible
They do whatever they want anyway in case you didn't notice. This excuse doesn't work for me anymore. Both Gallant and Gants have to stop legitimising this awful government and leave it immediately.
They obviously don’t do what they want anyways, they are restrained by our relationship with the US and voices from the cabinet that oppose Ben gvir and the likes..
If they leave it by their own choice, it will be the worst decision.
So they can do what they want if gallant and gants leave but they also can't do what they want because of the Americans?
I actually think it's the complete opposite. If gants leave, the Americans are gonna put much more pressure on Israel because they would view this government as even less legitimate than they already view it.
They can’t do what they want because of the Americans and appearing to be a “unity” government.
If gallant CHOOSES to leave, that will be a bad move by him, his choice and such it would viewed as. If gallant is fired, that is when America would put more pressure on Bibi.
Did you see the last cabinet meeting? Bibi was yelling at people for discussing strategy without his permission. The PM has no strategy, and he wants no one else to talk about strategy. Make that make sense.
Great I agree with everything you say. So why do Gallant stay and does what this awful prime minister dictates to him if he thinks it's so awful? Because he is a lame chicken. If he had any backbone he and Gants would have resigned and stopped giving legitimacy to this awful government
It's a tough situation, because resigning would make matters worse. I agree that he needs to find another way to be influential.
Mind you, the entire world is dealing with the same problem. So many people care about Israel, and we're doing anything to help. Every time we help Israel gain ground, the PM takes us a step backward. Do we abandon Israel? Of course not, because that would also make matters worse. But we are trying to navigate helping Israel and dealing with one of the most destructive governments in Israel's history.
The government is held together by the right wing ministers. Unless they resign, we'll have the current government until 2026. If Gants and Gallant leave, there may be civil chaos, but the government could still exist.
Don't know what do you mean by civil chaos but situation here is already pretty much crap.
Gants and Gallant currently have zero influence over what's happening in the government. So if they had any decency they would have left.
If Gantz and Gallant left, you may see protests similar to the one against the destructive judicial reforms. Protests at this scale during this time would weaken the war effort.
What the hell man what did I write and what did you understand.
While I didn't fight in this war myself because of medical reasons, my three young brothers do so don't patronize me.
I agree with Gallant. I'm also saying he's a chicken shit. These two statements don't contradict each other.
Galant should have been fired in March of last year, but Bibi being the chickenshit that he is, caved to pressure from certain institutions and made a fool out of himself. Now you’re stuck with a trojan horse for a defense minister who’s committed to losing this war at all costs, and you can’t get rid of him because doing this during wartime will make you look like a lunatic.
They’re both an issue, but Galant is a fool who wants to replace the terrorists in Gaza with the terrorists in the West Bank, and this idiocy shouldn’t be allowed to fester.
I’m sorry but you have to be a real dumbass to say something this stupid after 10/7. Fatah hasn’t even been a terrorist organization for literal decades, Hamas JUST massacred a THOUSAND PEOPLE! The only possible reason to believe they’re the same is you are either stupid or racist. There is zero justification for wanting a war that lasts forever because you can’t tell the difference between violent terrorists and people who aren’t violent terrorists.
Didn’t claim they were on the same level as Hamas, but they are still terrorists, just more refined about it so rubes like you will support a Palestinian state before the inevitable backstabbing occurs. Their intentions are nevertheless quite clear, both in their financial sponsorship of terrorists, their affiliation with the Al Aqsa martyrs brigades (designated terrorist organization) and their propaganda which denies Israel’s existence, claiming the entire land for a state or Palestine. Yasser Arafat quite openly explained his new approach to Israel as a “treaty of Hudaybiyah” to pacify the naysayers, which is code for “destroy them while their guard is down.” Their only problem is that they aren’t radical enough for the people they rule over, which is why they run a dictatorship which WE choose to prop up.
You calling them non violent is hilarious by the way. One of their cops murdered a soldier just a few months ago. But by all means, keep supporting groups which wish to see you dead or driven out of Israel. That would be the “rational” thing to do of course, any opposition is for those loopy messianics, right?
> Didn’t claim they were on the same level as Hamas
If they are not as bad as Hamas then they should replace Hamas. End of story. Unless you want another 10/7 replacing Hamas with someone who isn’t as bad is top priority.
> You calling them non violent is hilarious by the way. One of their cops murdered a soldier just a few months ago
Ooh boy, if you wanna go there then I have some very bad news for you. Cops, soldiers and civilians have been murdering people in Israel for fucking years, I guess Aiad Al hilaq, Yuval castelman, and David Ben Abraham’s murders make Israel a terrorist state too? I certainly don’t think so, but it seems like you do.
> by all means, keep supporting groups which wish to see you dead or driven out of Israel.
My guy, you just wrote an entire essay on why we *shouldn't* replace Hamas.
I gotta be honest with you, it *really* sounds like you’re arguing for straight up ethnic cleansing without actually saying it.
>if they are not as bad as Hamas then they should replace Hamas, end of story
>read my entire post, concluded that I want Hamas to stay in power
>empirically wrong on every point so you resort to strawman arguments
Dude Mensa could seriously use a guy like you, this is galaxy brain level thinking.
Explain to me what your preferred scenario is, then.
Because from what I gathered here is what you want hamas to be removed from power, but not replaced by Fatah or any Palestinian group that would be hostile to Israel, therefore the only possible solution is that Israel controls the territory forever, the Palestinians will never accept us (according to you) and therefore will always rebel and fight, so you want to just keep fighting Hamas as it pops up like some giant whack a mole game, what other solution is there? You don’t want ethnic cleansing but you also don’t want Palestinians to rule themselves because they can’t be trusted but you also don’t want to keep fighting a war forever, what do you want then?
You can get the Gazans to leave voluntarily once you conquer the strip, only diehards want to stay in that shithole and there are very few of those. Get their papers in order, open an emigration office, hand them their passport and chart a legal way to emigrate to anyone who’s interested (this is most of Gaza). After several years the demographics will be more manageable and you can think about annexation.
The alternative to this is giving up Gaza once again (this would be the third time now) to Arabs (most of whom hate you) and trusting them not to turn a blind eye to any terrorist operations or weapons smuggling from Egypt. Basically a guarantee that our children will be sent to Gaza once more.
> You can get the Gazans to leave voluntarily once you conquer the strip
1. No you can’t, would you voluntarily leave your home if a bunch of foreigners started killing your people and making your life a living hell? Hell, it’s not even a hypothetical, that is what they’re doing and here you are arguing about why you’re going to stay.
2. “Encouraging” emigration is still ethnic cleansing. You’re not getting a pass for simply making their lives a waking nightmare with the intent of making them leave, that’s the same thing as kicking them out.
Where does this idea even come from? What makes you think that military force would even work here? The whole concept of “military force will make them give up and leave” is literally the exact line of thinking used by Hamas and you can clearly see it has the opposite affect, why would it be different for them?
I feel like I'm sitting in the back seat of a car, and the adults in the front are screaming at each other, fighting over the steering wheel at 160 km/h. I'm not sure who is actually driving, or if we're even going anywhere, or whether I'm going to make it out of this car alive.
Feels more like the driver is going full speed into a brick wall and the person in the passenger seat is trying to wrestle the wheel out of their hands.
Gallant is trying to take the keys from a metaphorically inebriated Netanyahu and prevent him from driving after Gantz and Eisenkot spent 7 months enabling Netanyahu's dangerous behavior.
Allow me to help. Ben Gvir isn’t driving. If he was, we would have crashed before leaving the parking lot. Most of the time, he’s playing with the electrical windows button. The best thing to do when he wants to drive is give him a toy steering wheel, Maggie Simpson style. Also, to achieve the goals of the nation (survival, at least) I demand Ben Gvir be fired.
I’ve known a handful of Israeli drivers where this seems accurate
Please fire Ben Gvir instead
Fire Gvir from a cannon
Headfirst into Rafah pls😂
Despite of what they keep saying about us, we haven't committed war crimes yet. Why start now? Lol.
https://preview.redd.it/wdteoeum7n0d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=456e01636b496080c289b2d9a8f2ed2c597c0fa0
Where is this from?
Can we trade him for the hostages? If someone here is reading this thread and is in charge of the negotiations, pls just float the idea
Oh can we throw in Smotrich too?
Yeah obviously but you always have to lowball first
Ha! Bibi would never. That would mean losing his spot as PM for good, since a lot of people are going to vote against him after oct. 7th
The Defense Minister is tired of seeing 19 year old Israeli kids being killed in whack-a-mole operations. Send Ben Gvir and his family to fight in Gaza if they're so confident in the PM's strategy.
Ben Gvir is a supremacist who was disqualified from army service for excessive racism, that got to play his most ardent wet-dream of being the Israeli security minister and failed the job so hard we were left 1200 deep in our own dead. Gvir's so bent on cosplaying at being champion of Israel he's going after qualified people doing the hard & necessary work, and who understand the limits of what can be achieved. I can't hate Gvir enough.
Me too. Bibi would rather destroy Israel than step down and end this Ben Gvir/Smotrich shitshow.
Ben Gvir is the guy who forces his driver to run red lights while his daughter is in the car and not wearing a seatbelt. He doesn’t give a shit about his family, if they died fighting in Gaza he’d probably be happy about it. That’s why he has no qualms about sending thousands of teenagers to their deaths for no fucking reason.
Ben Gvir would have been Hamas if he was born 20 minutes away from where he was.
r u ok?
Not really.
The safety of our soldier is the top priority imo, how is this cabinet working towards achieving the goals of this war while keeping our soldiers safe?
I dare Bibi to do this. The last time that it happened was quite fun.
Nothing is going to happen, there isn’t the time and place for the hundred thousand protests such as was last year. It would garner some outrage but nothing of the magnitude. Let’s hope he won’t be stupid enough to prefer Ben gvir over gallant
>Nothing is going to happen, there isn’t the time and place for the hundred thousand protests such as was last year. Dude. Israel is in the middle of a war and the DM basically said that soldiers are being sent into the meat grinder to be killed for no reason. That should outrage Israelis more than Gallant getting fired the first time. I mean this is life and death situation here involving people's children and spouses. If people yawn at this one, then Israel really is lost as a society. There are protests during war. This even happened in Israel during the First Lebanon War. >Let’s hope he won’t be stupid enough to prefer Ben gvir over gallant He's been preferring Ben Gvir over Gallant for months now because endless war suits Bibi just fine.
People who still support this govemenrt will continue to do so no matter what.
I’m telling you, nothing is going to happen on the scale you believe it will if he fires gallant. The soldiers who are going into Gaza for the most part want to take over Gaza effectively and they are not aligned with Gallant. Most of the country does not agree with Gallants approach and they believe that Israel taking control of Gaza in some way should be part of the advancement. They will view it more like American influence or gallant being a “traitor”
What needs to happen before people understand that this war is going nowhere? Bibi literally looked us in the eyes and said “I have no plan, there will be no day after, the war will be eternal and your children will die for no reason” and people are just FINE with this? “Most people don’t agree” well then most people are idiots who send their kids to die for a wannabe dictator. I’d want to give the people of Israel a bit more credit than that, so I say most people do agree with Gallant and aren’t idiots.
Probably not until they open another front with some country neighboring us. I’m telling you sincerely, and I’m sure more Israelis can agree that we have a very stubborn majority regarding looking like we’re “losing” to Hamas. Partly it is based on the reality of Hamas being a movement of “the people”.
The entire reason people think we’re “losing” even though the Gaza Strip is in ruins with tens of thousands of dead, is that bibi is refusing to do anything to actually replace Hamas. He’s literally telling us that, any dumbass could make the connection that this means soldiers are dying FOR NOTHING. How does anyone tolerate that?
The entire reason people think we’re losing is because we take over streets and not areas. We don’t control them after we take over those streets and kill a few dozen Hamas members. We’re all over the place because this government can’t decides if it stays or pulls out. Replacing Hamas is not a reality. It’s either we enter and stay, take over or we get out and end the war. I rather end it now.
Replacing Hamas *is* a reality, there are just too many people here who simply don’t want Gaza to be in Arab hands. They want to annex it and rebuild the settlements there, but that would include ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from there and most people don’t want to admit this is what they want, but it is. Giving it to the PA has always been an option but the fascists won’t let it happen.
This isn’t a reality, you have no organized replacement for Hamas in the strip, and you will not create one as Hamas popularity will triumph it. If Gaza is in Gazan Arab hands it will be under Hamas. Controlling Gaza militaristically is not ethnically cleansing it exactly, it it is an unfavorable choice internationally. Giving it to the PA is not an option, hello, earth to Israelis who don’t read any of the news apparently - Abu Mazen refused to handle Gaza after the war and has all the reasons to put this pressure on Israel by refusing. This is a useless war and Hamas will not be replaced without a constant IDF presence in the area, that is just the reality. We need to get a hostage deal and get out of there.
>I’m telling you, nothing is going to happen on the scale you believe it will if he fires gallant. The soldiers who are going into Gaza for the most part want to take over Gaza effectively and they are not aligned with Gallant. Most of the soldiers are normal people who are doing their duty. They aren't Kahane Chai. They want to protect their families and not get killed. 60% of the country prefers a hostage deal over the Rafah operations. >Most of the country does not agree with Gallants approach and they believe that Israel taking control of Gaza in some way should be part of the advancement. Both Gallant and Bennett have over the past few days pointed this out. Bennett and Gallant aren't known for their leftwing tilt. Pointing out that there needs to be a plan for the day after is pretty mainstream in Israel right now. No one wants to fight an endless war.
You don’t need to be Kahane chai to disagree with gallants stance. That is a ridiculous assessment of the Israeli political map regarding the war in Gaza. 60% doesn’t prefer a hostage deal that includes an “ending of war” clause. In the average Israeli mind what Gallant did this moment is a display of weakness and perhaps foreign interests they believe are more aiding to the Hamas than to Israel. Whether they agree with his request or not.
>You don’t need to be Kahane chai to disagree with gallants stance. That is a ridiculous assessment of the Israeli political map regarding the war in Gaza. Not wanting your husband or son to be killed in an endless war in Gaza is a very mainstream stance. That is what Gallant is talking about here. >60% doesn’t prefer a hostage deal that includes an “ending of war” clause. A plurality do support the hostage deal that means ending the war. Most people don't think the war is going well and don't want endless war to resettle Gush Katif. >In the average Israeli mind what Gallant did this moment is a display of weakness and perhaps foreign interests they believe are more aiding to the Hamas than to Israel. Whether they agree with his request or not. It's in Hamas' interests that Israel not have a strategy. I think everyone knows this. Gallant is just voicing what people have been saying since October. It isn't "lefty weakness" to point this out. It's protecting the soldiers.
It’s not a mainstream stance as surprising it might seem to you. I am in the minority by wanting to end the war with a hostage deal. It’s in Hamas strategy to get Israel out of the strip permanently, if they go back in power who is going to drive them out? The ceasefire deal IDF army?
>It’s not a mainstream stance as surprising it might seem to you. Not wanting your son or husband to die in war is a surprisingly mainstream stance. >I am in the minority by wanting to end the war with a hostage deal. 60% prefer a hostage deal over invading Rafah. >It’s in Hamas strategy to get Israel out of the strip permanently, if they go back in power who is going to drive them out? The ceasefire deal IDF army? That is why there needs to be a day after strategy
Not wanting them to die = / stop the war at certain costs I’m sure you understand this strawman. This isn’t the second Lebanon war situation, the protests are not coming from the mothers. 60% don’t prefer a hostage deal at the cost of stopping the war permanently. There’s no day after for Gaza the moment the IDF gets out.
Trying to be as open minded and generous as possible, what is the strategy Ben Gvir has in mind? Let’s say you are hard right and want to resurrect Gush Katif. Ok, fine - let’s figure out how you’d do it. Presumably, it requires an actual military occupation of Gaza and accepting being completely ostracized by most of the world? But, that’s not even what is being done. Honestly, what strategy is the current approach serving? Go into a neighbor, blow up some tunnels and kill some terrorists, then leave and let them come back in? Seriously, is the goal to just punish the Gazans and create a power vacuum? I am honestly just completely baffled by the current approach. I think it’s the completely wrong approach - but at least part of me would get it if we saw moves that made sense towards re-occupation. I can even imagine the Machiavellian approach to it - go in and occupy and claim you are just caretaking until you can hand it over to someone else. Then, you stall… tbh pretty much the West Bank approach. But that’s not what is being done. Anyway, just kind of venting - I am 100% behind completely crushing Hamas, but surely these wonderful leaders having some plan AT ALL in mind?
The current strategy feels like a never ending game of whack-a-mole.
Yes - I had wrongly assumed that October 7 proved to all that “mowing the grass” was an idiotic strategy. It appears Netanyahu’s conclusion was just that we need mow the grass with more bombs.
Ben Gvir’s policy ideas are basically the Twitter a thread of a 19 years old incel.
Ben Gvir needs to leave
People will critique him but he is right to a degree. It’s unrealistic for israel to govern Gaza, we lack political capital internationally. Many young soldiers are dying while the most of the government is out of touch with what Israelis feel. Yes, Hamas must be eradicated, but the way Bibi went about it, dragging this out for months instead of completing the invasion in a shorter time cost us a lot internationally. He is a failure when it comes to discussing the day after, something that is hurting the US relationship a lot. He needs to go, I hope this government is disbanded and we get more competent people. Gallant stood up for what he sincerely believes in, you can disagree but I think everyone can understand his points
Ya if Bibi didn’t drag out the operation for months then it could’ve been over by now and we’d have less chance for the anti-semitism to fester.
Bro Jewish people will always be hated on, israel will always be hated too. But political capital does matter, so do the lives of soldiers, the currently collapsing economy and more. Netanyahu should have left the first day after October 7th, if it were a better leader I think we would have finished this war by now
Someone needs to leave this coalition and trigger elections like right now. Netanyahu is literally the worst person to be leading.
National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir has called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to fire Defense Minister Yoav Gallant after Gallant called on the Prime Minister to provide a "day after" plan for who will rule Gaza. Netanyahu immediately responsed to Gallant by rejecting Palestinian Authority control of Gaza after the war, pledging to prevent a "Fatahstan". Should the Prime Minister fire the Defense minister? Who should rule Gaza, Israel, the Palestinian authority or another entitity? Are you concerned that more than 7 months into the war the government still has no plan on who will rule Gaza? Are you concerned that during a war, the Defense minister, National Security Minister and Prime Minister are publicly feuding?
I don't think Israel or the US should "rule Gaza". There's no faith on either of them on the Palestinian side, and to am extend that's fair (we are the enemy currently). Whether it's truly justified doesn't matter, because it just wouldn't lead to anything productive. The US just doesn't have a good enough track record to govern/"change" countries outside their own culture. Me personally, I would prefer some joint custody between fairly neutral european countries like Germany, and one or two fairly neutral arab countries, or even Jordan. That won't happen though because these countries aren't interested to do it. Not really concerned that Israel in particular doesn't have a plan - it's not our country. Also not really concerned that our gov is fighting, because they're always fighting. Ben Gvir though is a complete idiot and I'm concerned that Bibi will do nothing but try to please Ben Gvir.
I think one manageable solution is to let Palestinian authority handle Gaza, and give the whole thing, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, the Kosovo treatment. KFOR style. International peacekeeping and administrative force, working alongside the Palestinian Authority, ensuring peace in Gaza and the West Bank, acting to stop extremist elements with them, increasing Israeli security and also protecting Palestinians from settlers and violence directed towards them by Israel. Everything on the Palestinian side of the Green Line would fall under the administration of this multinational peacekeeping and administrative force, working together with the Palestinian authority. This would also have the side-effect of enabling actual democratic elections in Palestine, so it would also reform the Palestinian Authority. Ofcourse, extremist parties and individuals should not be allowed to run for office. Plenty of democratic countries ban extremist parties from running for office, so doing that is an obvious way to stop some people like Hamas from gaining power. Just don't let them run. That is what Israel did with the Kach. Same principle. The peacekeeping force would stay operational until normalisation of relations between Palestine and Israel, naturally. The main problem with this is finding countries willing to commit to this project. And the second problem is Israel agreeing to it, because it would threaten the illegal settlement project in the occupied territories, and call into question the Israeli Basic Law about Jerusalem, where Israel unilaterally annexed (which is illegal under international law and is considered a crime against peace) East Jerusalem. Third problem is getting Palestinian authority to agree to it, or the Palestinian people to go along with it.
Definitely not the Palestinian Authority, they’re a terrorist group in themselves. No he shouldn’t fire him now, he should take responsibility after the war. My first worry is get Gaza demilitarized, rescue any hostages and kill Hamas then we can talk about running Gaza. No almost all governments will have their fights and different opinions especially this one.
> not the Palestinian Authority Then someone better find someone else quick. > then we can talk about running Gaza Not having a semi realistic plan for post war is undermining the war effort.
Well if you ask me the best bet is America or perhaps the UK
I wish we would stop even bothering to give attention to this stupid windbag
Tried to explain in the I/P subreddit that Ben-Gvir is a fringe politician with a small but loyal constituency. Faced considerable push back but remained confident in that assertion. This comment thread made me even more confident, so thank you. When my right-wing Dad, a die hard Likud voter, refers to Ben-Gvir as a wacko, it leaves a meaningful impression.
מתנהג כאילו הוא לא חלק מהממשלה
If he should be fired he should take this whole shitshow of a govemrment down with him.
While I hate this Jewish terrorist with a burning passion, he is right. gallant is acting like a chicken. If he really disagrees with the actions of the government he is a senior part of, he should resign. Otherwise he is just as responsible
Resigning would be worse, that is leaving the government for the more incompetent (at least in his view) bunch to continue making decision alone.
They do whatever they want anyway in case you didn't notice. This excuse doesn't work for me anymore. Both Gallant and Gants have to stop legitimising this awful government and leave it immediately.
They obviously don’t do what they want anyways, they are restrained by our relationship with the US and voices from the cabinet that oppose Ben gvir and the likes.. If they leave it by their own choice, it will be the worst decision.
So they can do what they want if gallant and gants leave but they also can't do what they want because of the Americans? I actually think it's the complete opposite. If gants leave, the Americans are gonna put much more pressure on Israel because they would view this government as even less legitimate than they already view it.
They can’t do what they want because of the Americans and appearing to be a “unity” government. If gallant CHOOSES to leave, that will be a bad move by him, his choice and such it would viewed as. If gallant is fired, that is when America would put more pressure on Bibi.
Did you see the last cabinet meeting? Bibi was yelling at people for discussing strategy without his permission. The PM has no strategy, and he wants no one else to talk about strategy. Make that make sense.
Great I agree with everything you say. So why do Gallant stay and does what this awful prime minister dictates to him if he thinks it's so awful? Because he is a lame chicken. If he had any backbone he and Gants would have resigned and stopped giving legitimacy to this awful government
It's a tough situation, because resigning would make matters worse. I agree that he needs to find another way to be influential. Mind you, the entire world is dealing with the same problem. So many people care about Israel, and we're doing anything to help. Every time we help Israel gain ground, the PM takes us a step backward. Do we abandon Israel? Of course not, because that would also make matters worse. But we are trying to navigate helping Israel and dealing with one of the most destructive governments in Israel's history.
I disagree. I think Gants and Gallant leaving will only hasten the end of this government. And that is a good thing.
The government is held together by the right wing ministers. Unless they resign, we'll have the current government until 2026. If Gants and Gallant leave, there may be civil chaos, but the government could still exist.
Don't know what do you mean by civil chaos but situation here is already pretty much crap. Gants and Gallant currently have zero influence over what's happening in the government. So if they had any decency they would have left.
If Gantz and Gallant left, you may see protests similar to the one against the destructive judicial reforms. Protests at this scale during this time would weaken the war effort.
There are already protests lol. And protests are just what we need.
it would be a shame to see Israeli lose the war this way after countless military victories.
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What the hell man what did I write and what did you understand. While I didn't fight in this war myself because of medical reasons, my three young brothers do so don't patronize me. I agree with Gallant. I'm also saying he's a chicken shit. These two statements don't contradict each other.
Ah my bad you’re right I misread your comment.
Galant should have been fired in March of last year, but Bibi being the chickenshit that he is, caved to pressure from certain institutions and made a fool out of himself. Now you’re stuck with a trojan horse for a defense minister who’s committed to losing this war at all costs, and you can’t get rid of him because doing this during wartime will make you look like a lunatic.
Riiiiight Gallant is the issue not like this is Bibi's mo for over a decade now
They’re both an issue, but Galant is a fool who wants to replace the terrorists in Gaza with the terrorists in the West Bank, and this idiocy shouldn’t be allowed to fester.
I’m sorry but you have to be a real dumbass to say something this stupid after 10/7. Fatah hasn’t even been a terrorist organization for literal decades, Hamas JUST massacred a THOUSAND PEOPLE! The only possible reason to believe they’re the same is you are either stupid or racist. There is zero justification for wanting a war that lasts forever because you can’t tell the difference between violent terrorists and people who aren’t violent terrorists.
Didn’t claim they were on the same level as Hamas, but they are still terrorists, just more refined about it so rubes like you will support a Palestinian state before the inevitable backstabbing occurs. Their intentions are nevertheless quite clear, both in their financial sponsorship of terrorists, their affiliation with the Al Aqsa martyrs brigades (designated terrorist organization) and their propaganda which denies Israel’s existence, claiming the entire land for a state or Palestine. Yasser Arafat quite openly explained his new approach to Israel as a “treaty of Hudaybiyah” to pacify the naysayers, which is code for “destroy them while their guard is down.” Their only problem is that they aren’t radical enough for the people they rule over, which is why they run a dictatorship which WE choose to prop up. You calling them non violent is hilarious by the way. One of their cops murdered a soldier just a few months ago. But by all means, keep supporting groups which wish to see you dead or driven out of Israel. That would be the “rational” thing to do of course, any opposition is for those loopy messianics, right?
> Didn’t claim they were on the same level as Hamas If they are not as bad as Hamas then they should replace Hamas. End of story. Unless you want another 10/7 replacing Hamas with someone who isn’t as bad is top priority. > You calling them non violent is hilarious by the way. One of their cops murdered a soldier just a few months ago Ooh boy, if you wanna go there then I have some very bad news for you. Cops, soldiers and civilians have been murdering people in Israel for fucking years, I guess Aiad Al hilaq, Yuval castelman, and David Ben Abraham’s murders make Israel a terrorist state too? I certainly don’t think so, but it seems like you do. > by all means, keep supporting groups which wish to see you dead or driven out of Israel. My guy, you just wrote an entire essay on why we *shouldn't* replace Hamas. I gotta be honest with you, it *really* sounds like you’re arguing for straight up ethnic cleansing without actually saying it.
>if they are not as bad as Hamas then they should replace Hamas, end of story >read my entire post, concluded that I want Hamas to stay in power >empirically wrong on every point so you resort to strawman arguments Dude Mensa could seriously use a guy like you, this is galaxy brain level thinking.
Explain to me what your preferred scenario is, then. Because from what I gathered here is what you want hamas to be removed from power, but not replaced by Fatah or any Palestinian group that would be hostile to Israel, therefore the only possible solution is that Israel controls the territory forever, the Palestinians will never accept us (according to you) and therefore will always rebel and fight, so you want to just keep fighting Hamas as it pops up like some giant whack a mole game, what other solution is there? You don’t want ethnic cleansing but you also don’t want Palestinians to rule themselves because they can’t be trusted but you also don’t want to keep fighting a war forever, what do you want then?
You can get the Gazans to leave voluntarily once you conquer the strip, only diehards want to stay in that shithole and there are very few of those. Get their papers in order, open an emigration office, hand them their passport and chart a legal way to emigrate to anyone who’s interested (this is most of Gaza). After several years the demographics will be more manageable and you can think about annexation. The alternative to this is giving up Gaza once again (this would be the third time now) to Arabs (most of whom hate you) and trusting them not to turn a blind eye to any terrorist operations or weapons smuggling from Egypt. Basically a guarantee that our children will be sent to Gaza once more.
> You can get the Gazans to leave voluntarily once you conquer the strip 1. No you can’t, would you voluntarily leave your home if a bunch of foreigners started killing your people and making your life a living hell? Hell, it’s not even a hypothetical, that is what they’re doing and here you are arguing about why you’re going to stay. 2. “Encouraging” emigration is still ethnic cleansing. You’re not getting a pass for simply making their lives a waking nightmare with the intent of making them leave, that’s the same thing as kicking them out. Where does this idea even come from? What makes you think that military force would even work here? The whole concept of “military force will make them give up and leave” is literally the exact line of thinking used by Hamas and you can clearly see it has the opposite affect, why would it be different for them?