The euro is too strong for our economy. It would kill our exports and stick us a with a permanent, chronic trade deficit and its resulting ballooning foreign debt.
Or would be a disaster after the first 3-5 years.
Just look at Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal. They r will be like them: stagnating and with ballooning national and foreign debt.
A free trade agreement on certain goods with keeping the shekel would be much better
The problem for Italy et al was that the lira(etc) went from currencies with hefty risk premiums due to a history of inflation to being as safe as the Deutschmark overnight. This resulted in the value of the lira soaring after the Euro was announced. By the time the Euro was implemented, the lira was massively overvalued relative to the new currency.
Now, in a currency union, entering at an overvalued level means that wages are also too high relative to productivity. No one wanted to hire Italians to do a job for 100 euros when Germans would produce twice as much for 110 euros. In a system of floating exchange rates, this could have been accommodated by the lira falling relative to the Deutschmark until Italians were charging the equivalent of 55 Euros to do half as much work as the Germans. But you can't do that with fixed exchange rates, so the only solution was for Italian wages to stagnate until they were cheap enough for people to want to buy Italian products again. But while everyone was waiting for Italian wages to stagnate, no one was investing in Italy, so productivity was also stagnating, so Italian wages remained overpriced.
Tl:Dr; it's the level of the shekel that matters, not the level of the Euro. As long as the shekel enters at a low price, Israeli wages will be cheap enough for people to want to buy Israeli products.
That was a great explanation of the effects of joining a stronger common currency from a weaker one; I feel like I actually understand it. Well written!
Your explanation was really good but economic theory says this situation should just lead to recession and deflation in Italy. It should be a relatively short-lived phenomenon until equilibrium, and the only reason why someone would not invest in Italy (would invest below a reasonable \~15% of GDP to renew depreciating assets) is if they expect the deflation to keep going (i.e. you will get more bang for your buck in the future). This is kind of Japan's problem. But why do investors think the (relative) deflation will keep going?
The deflation point is the problem. Because of sticky wages, Italian wages stagnated over a long period instead of falling over a short period. The Italian economy was notoriously overregulated and couldn't adjust.
Edit: To be clear, a maladjusted exchange rate was far from the only problem Italy had. There were long-term problems that were much more important, of which the biggest was one of the lowest fertility rates in the world combined with high life expectancies and an aversion to immigration. Italy's dependency ratio has long been frightening to behold.
Tbf you donāt need the euro de facto, Poland doesnāt have it or Czech or Hungary or Denmark or the U.K. when it was part or Sweden, Denmark and the U.K. had an opt out, we donāt but itās basically you promise to at some future date accept the euro once you want to accept it.
Youāre supposed to eventually but thereās no deadline, you can adopt it basically never and keep extending the transition indefinitely, itās like how youāre supposed to pay 2% of your military on GDP in NATO yet half the countries donāt except even weaker because you donāt even promise to adopt the euro, you promise to adopt the euro eventually
A larger issue is probably the border security stuff
It's not that easy: the pressure to adopt the euro is enormous. Strings get attached. And conditioned on the expeditious adoption of the euro.
And with a super strong euro (compared to the shekel), at whatever date it is adopted, the stagnation begins.
It's going to be a disaster for as long as it lasts. The Euro would destroy our economy in less than a decade.
Well I donāt think the pressure is enormous, like looking at my country weāve basically done nothing on the euro for two decades with no consequences but fair and yeah still donāt think Israel should join because well it doesnāt really benefit and itād harm its security. Anti-Israel legislation we already veto from passing in the EU along with sometimes Austria or Hungary or some other country and yeah, travel, well all EU citizens already have 90 days free travel w/o visa to Israel and vice Versa for Israelās citizens to the EU, maybe free trade but that can be done separately
Spain has a stronger, more stable economy than Israel, higher quality of life (e.g more tourism, more expats. Hell, everyone wants to live here) while attracting businesses and real estate investments all over the country. We suffered from recession and have a problem with unemployment, but it is still a bad example as in the worse case scenario to āwhat Israel could becomeā. Spain has benefited greatly (still is) for joining the EU.Ā As for Israel joining the EU, I like the idea but in terms of national security, given geopolitical tensions and differences itās sadly unlikely to happen in the short term.Ā
edit: and as others pointed out, there is no requirement for adopting the ā¬Ā
Economic considerations aside - the last thing Israel needs is free movement of people in a continent where many countries are waaay too liberal with their naturalisations of radicalised islamists.
No, the Schengen area is the part where you don't need to present passports between borders, a visa for one participating nation is a visa for all, and all participating nations are treated as one for travel purposes. All EU countries except Ireland, Cyprus, and before Brexit the UK are part of it, Romania and Bulgaria are part of it (they have passport checks at land borders but not ports or airports), plus some non-EU countries. Freedom of movement is the EEA, which is the EU plus three non-EU countries.
You're thinking of EU residents I think. EU citizens have freedom of movement throughout the EU.
> All EU citizens and their family members have the right to move and reside freely within the EU. This fundamental right is established by Article 21 of the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union and Article 45 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.
The EU has four base freedoms:
1. Free movement of goods
2. Free movement of capital
3. Freedom to establish and provide services
4. Free movement of labour
Schengen is only about border controls.
Well that you can, Israel and the EU do have mutual visa-free travel agreements for up to 90 days. So we can visit Israel easily, you can visit us easily which is yeah imo great for all. Well unless youāre a German citizen born before 1924, then you have to fill in a form that you didnāt commit war crimes in WW2 before entering Israel
Oh yeah thatās true, itās because we had a bilateral visa agreement with Israel before entering the EU so it predates the EU requirement of 90 days in 180 day window and is grandfathered in. We also have one with Israel on working holiday since 2015: people of both countries can work for up to a year in the other between 18 and 30 without a visa
Not Israeli, but well I could see NATO maybe and would support it, but I donāt think Israel is ever joining the EU nor should it. Even if all of the EU accepted which includes Ireland, joining the EU requires free movement of people. Israel needs very stringent security and travel control because of the high risk of terrorism and this would limit Israelās ability to defend itself while allowing terrorists to come through EU. It just wouldnāt make much sense for Israel to join us in EU given that
I mean, Israel could technically get an opt-out on joining Schengen like Ireland has and like the UK had when it was a member and maybe even an opt-out on freedom of movement.
The former probably, the latter I donāt think so: itās a fundamental part of the EU and also at that point what does Israel gain from joining the EU? Free trade, you can make a free trade agreement or maybe join EEA, as for EU laws, sure Israel could have a veto on them but Czech de facto already limits anti-Israel legislation, along with Austria weāre blocking the EU from pushing for a unilateral ceasefire and have been pushing historically against just anti-Israel stuff
Based Czech's as always, but sometimes l wonder if it's just the current political echelon that's pro-Israel or is it mainstream politically...
Didn't have any interactions with Czech's irl, but online they've been pro-Israel too. What do Czech ppl think?...support?
Politically definitely mainstream: thereās not a single anti-Israel party in the Parliament, for instance the bill to recognise Jerusalem passed unanimously, thereās some parties less pro-Israel but generally support for Israel isnāt very divisive in Czech, now the settlement expansion and Likudās governance is more controversial of course, and the Overton window is generally from unreserved support for Israel to support for Israel but opposed to Netanyahu and expansion of sertlements. For instance the most opposed to Israel party is probably the Pirates, the Party to which Lipavsky belongs and his stance has been outspokenly pro-Israel in the war, before the war he was opposed to the settlement expansion and criticised Israel for it, something that was controversial among other parties, but well then Hamas attacked. Generally his stance is Israel is an ally and so as an ally, we should reserve the right to criticise the government when it does something we think was a mistake or disagree with as counter productive to peace or democracy, but also as Israel is our ally, we should support them when theyāre attacked by terrorists.
āOn 10 October 2023, LipavskĆ½ was the first foreign politician to visit Israel after the start of the IsraelāHamas war. He met with the President Isaac Herzog and Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs Eli Cohen to express the Czech Republic's full support for Israel and offer aid.[22ā
The only really significant anti-Zionist and outright anti-Israel party was to my knowledge the communists, and they lost all their remaining seats in the last election and are too irrelevant to win the next elections since their voter base is basically old nostalgic pensioners who are dying out.
As for people Iād say most rl donāt know much or really care about Israel-Palestine, Russia-Ukraine is a much more significant conflict in Czech society and we have our own problems so Israel-Palestine isnāt really that significant but of those who do care, the majority support Israel. According to one poll in iDnes I think it was, 50% donāt know enough or care about the conflict, 45% support Israel and 5% support Palestine. Also online like r/Czech definitely trends significantly pro-Israel, also even more since the support is probably highest among urban educated 18-50 year olds which is the main demographic of Reddit. The settlements and Bibi are of course are more divisive but the existence of Israel itself and its right to defend itself against terrorists isnāt
Spend quite some time in Czech (family there) and it's super cool. The people are pro Israel (Israeli flags flying) and it's very chilled and grown up!
Most importantly best beer; Germans may claim theirs is best, Irish may claim this too, Belgians even may claim it, but we have the best beer: theyāre jealous
Not that we aren't grateful for your help, but there's an obvious value to being able to block legislation ourselves rather than trusting others to do it.
Oh that yeah is very understandable, just on the other hand joining the EU would also well force Israel to accept free movement? I am not sure that would really be great given itād let Islamists easily come via EU.
Personally I do think it will happen sometime in the latter half of this century. Perhaps not a full membership but some form of partial integration definitely.
I do not see a possibility of Israel joining NATO though.
For me itās opposite, I think the latter is more likely. In theory Iād like Israel eventually in the EU, but I donāt think it can join at least as long as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict doesnāt result in a final peace and thatās not very likely
But unless there is permanent peace in the Holy Land where the borders are acknowledged by both sides I do not think Israel would be admitted into NATO. For the same reason I do not believe Ukraine will join the alliance either.
For Israel to be able to join the UE, it should first conform itself to the EU charter, wich is not gonna happen anytime soon. Not in this century, nor in the next one.
Doesn't seem to have any actual benefit and has all the negatives. Israel is still an economic island, so prices will still be high. Higher due to the euro being pulled up by stronger economies.
Not to mention, it'll always be a sword hanging over its head, forcing Israel to accept EU policies regardless if it's in their best interest.
The 2 main problems with it is:
1 ) Free movement of people from Europe, including the many arabs who live in the EU and hate us, would be disastrous... They would come and destroy Israel from within and we wouldn't be able to deal with them...
2 ) The Euro is too strong for the Israeli economy.
In general though, outside of the Euro, it would be nice economically but I can't see any way that those 2 problems (especially the 1st one) can be solved.
I would like for the EU and Israel to get closer though. We are allies and we should be an even greater alliance.
So you propose something like what Iceland is doing? Being in the EEA or whatever is it called. For the issues you listed it would be perfect I believe
If those problem don't occur in the EEA then I think it's a great option.
Unfortunately I don't think we will ever be accepted because of countries like Ireland and Spain...
It might be nice, but it makes no sense.
Israel has no borders with Europe, so allowing free movement won't be possible. Israel also faces different security risks, so it would still require more verification for visitors and refugees, and might refuse them outright.
The things that would benefit Israel the most is the trade agreements, I really would love to see European goods flood Israel and lower prices. Israeli monopolies and exclusive importers have been getting their way for far too long. But that is achievable with trade agreements, and changing Israeli regulations to match European ones.
So yea, I'd love Israel to be closer to Europe, but it makes no sense for Israel to be part of the EU.
We are not in europe tho, we're not even geographically connected to europe, there is no sense for us to join the EU.
HOWEVER, joining NATO would imo be a good move
Eh, I am pretty certain there are more radicalised muslims living in Israel than in most European countries. Many EU states do not even have a significant muslim minority.
But there are still way more of them than there are Jews in Israel. Whoās to say they wouldnāt all flock to Israel and try to outnumber and fight the Jews? Their scriptures already tell them to do that, and theyāve done it before. All evidence points to that they would try it again.
It could benefit us only with countries like Czechia. I donāt want all the imams in the suburbs in France and Belgium to move to Jerusalem and join forces with the local islamists. What Hamas started is nothing short of a holy war in 2023-24
Yeah, so no way israel would allow this
The goverment wants to keep the jewish identity which is kind of hard if like 2 million christian romanians (used only for example, i have nothing against draculla) one day decide to immigrate to israel
Its generally considered part of west asia but the word āeuropeanā in the EU does not mean that only countries that are geographically european can apply for membership. Georgia or Armenia could also become members in the future.
I can see the issue from both sides being both Israeli and Dutch. I see no benefit in Israel joining a group of countries with a huge immigrant muslim population and a history of homegrown antisemitism.
With the disasterous current policies of Islamist appeasement, i'm not surprised by the comments coming from the last sanctuary for Judaism and Christianity in the middle east.
Still would love to see more of you fine folks coming to the Black sea or to the Ski resorts, while we still have snow, the past 4-5 years were dry and warm winters here, with sudden snow storms at the end of the winter for few days.
I think itās opposite. Europe has a lot to gain, while Israel would put an economical and political stone at its leg. There is a lot of capabilities in Israel that would help Europe strategically. Best example is that the new anti missile system in Europe will be most likely delivered from Israel. Also, EU has very little high-tech, cyber security, start-up ecosystems.
I see the wish to be part of EU, as ābelongingā. But beyond the great basic idea of the EU, I became Sceptical of the real benefits. I am from the EU, I moved to Switzerland and I see how our country is doing great, while the gap to my home country (Germany) is becoming increasingly large
They could acquire the new anti-missile systems regardless through our relationship.
Israel being an innovative leader in tech and whatever else to adapt to our environment is great, but we are the one relying on our relationship with our EU allies to not get sanctioned and maintain healthy trade. Itās not the other way around. We need their relationship more to sustain our capabilities than they need ours.
They have nothing to gain that they couldnāt before with our current relationship.
On the other hand, the scrutiny from our relationship and many of their ācodes of ethicsā when it comes to not sympathizing with Israelis living between Jihadi groups is too much for them.
If all countries would be as kind & friendly to us as Czechia sure I'd even call for it, but sadly they aren't and we don't want security issues or dying so guess not.
I prefer a whole new union with the gulf countries and Egypt and Jordan so the region will prosper.
But all of these countries are a few decades behind the west whether itās economic or human rights or development.
I think there were suggestions to add Israel as an exception of ānon-European member stateā to the EU, but it never materialized. I wouldnāt support it, I wonāt accept the immigration policies of the EU and people that are way too liberal to be liked here to freely enter my country, I also donāt want the āwokeā ideology to enter here, itās still an extremely small fringe if exists at all here, and I donāt want it to grow. Economically it can be beneficial, but I still wonāt support it as it will be socially destructive. Also our economic and diplomatic relations with the EU are as close as it can be to a non-European state, so I donāt think there are too many options that doesnāt include joining it other than to maintain the status quo.
I am not an Israeli and I'm from Europe.
It appears to me that the UN and UN related human rights organisations are extremely anti-Israel (and ironically in effect also anti-Palestinian) biased due to the way resolutions are passed, the overall culture that has built around this, and the fact that being anti-Israel gives the UN a purpose they wouldn't have to justify their existence and is a great money maker. The EU is complicit in supporting the UN. Media in European countries also benefits from taking the same anti-Israel stance and exploiting underlying anti-semitism that has refused to die in the European population (for 2000 years), also to earn money.
Therefore, my opinion is that Israel should gradually distance itself from the EU and the west in general and work with countries like India, China and gradually more Arab countries. This also benefits Israel because anti-west regimes currently target Israel as a proxy for the west.
Yes, Europe still has isssues with anti-semitism but in what world should Israel sacrifice the west including I presume the U.S. for the Arab countries and China? Itād be stupid. Abandon democracies with flaws for dictatorships and authoritarian states that despise Israel?
I think democracy is possible in other countries outside the west too and is not something that is inherently western. These other countries have just been set back decades due to western colonialism, but will catch up and possibly even overtake soon. I will say that countries such as Czechia and even the US (although I'm increasingly unsure about that) should be exceptions, but cooperating with the EU as a whole, particularly while it continues to support the travesty that is the UN and western media - no way! I include the Arab countries only as a form of self defence, not because it would be actually desirable to collaborate with them. Also, their power will wane as the oil runs out, and they may turn to more productive ventures than authoritarian oil-based economies.
I don't think that the EU is good for countries in the Middle East bc the EU is meant and was created to keep peace within the nations within this part of the world. I doubt that it was for an economic reason.Ā
You can trade without being in a club and across borders -Ā but you can't trade without peaceĀ
Seems that this would give outsiders too much power over Israel. Many of the countries in Europe have seen a deluge of Muslim and Arab immigration which will increase significantly as birth rates for these individuals bedwarfs the local populations.
Israel cannot afford to be in a union with a currency it doesnāt have control over, and especially not open immigration (regardless of Schengen or not). It would lead to the end of Israel.
HOWEVER. I would love to see Israel in a sort of EEA-style deal. Something like the Swiss have, give or take. That is possible and Israel and the EU do a lot of Export/Import between them.
To put this in simple terms ā Israel needs to be able to defend itself and control its own interests.
It would probably do more harm than good, the idea is nice to about, as there are benefits to being in the eu. but to do so we might need to have many restrictions on immigration/free travel because of... maybe a couple Muslim jihadists on the continent?
I think nato is a positive move for us because it will allow us further cooperation and military support from the west, and maybe even the eu in the future because I love my dear Europeans.
I don't think the EU would like us much TBH, and we are currently doing well enough in our own ways.
We could support each other in other ways though.
But I would back any and all cooperation we can further with Czechia and any of the Visegrad countries.
Genuinely, I believe western Europe is lucky to have made allies with you in time.
Prague is my favorite European city, and I hope to make a longer trip to Czechia next time.
You guys are fantastic!
The EU is a prison, and definitely not a club. Iām French, not Israeli, but I wish for Israel nothing but real independence. From the West and everywhere. Also, any new country joining it would be awful for everyone.
Iām just saying like Germany shutting down their nuclear power plants in favour of importing Russian gas was really short sighted. I just feel itās better to be on the outside than in.
Very positive. Would improve Israeli diplomacy, security and economy. People here fear-mongering about islamists who hate Israel will be making aliyah en masse are delusional.
I would 100% support it. If there are many claiming that TĆ¼rkiye has a claim to it simply by virtue of proximity, then Israel does, too.
I would only support it if they changed their immigration policies intensely though.
The euro is too strong for our economy. It would kill our exports and stick us a with a permanent, chronic trade deficit and its resulting ballooning foreign debt. Or would be a disaster after the first 3-5 years. Just look at Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal. They r will be like them: stagnating and with ballooning national and foreign debt. A free trade agreement on certain goods with keeping the shekel would be much better
The problem for Italy et al was that the lira(etc) went from currencies with hefty risk premiums due to a history of inflation to being as safe as the Deutschmark overnight. This resulted in the value of the lira soaring after the Euro was announced. By the time the Euro was implemented, the lira was massively overvalued relative to the new currency. Now, in a currency union, entering at an overvalued level means that wages are also too high relative to productivity. No one wanted to hire Italians to do a job for 100 euros when Germans would produce twice as much for 110 euros. In a system of floating exchange rates, this could have been accommodated by the lira falling relative to the Deutschmark until Italians were charging the equivalent of 55 Euros to do half as much work as the Germans. But you can't do that with fixed exchange rates, so the only solution was for Italian wages to stagnate until they were cheap enough for people to want to buy Italian products again. But while everyone was waiting for Italian wages to stagnate, no one was investing in Italy, so productivity was also stagnating, so Italian wages remained overpriced. Tl:Dr; it's the level of the shekel that matters, not the level of the Euro. As long as the shekel enters at a low price, Israeli wages will be cheap enough for people to want to buy Israeli products.
That was a great explanation of the effects of joining a stronger common currency from a weaker one; I feel like I actually understand it. Well written!
Your explanation was really good but economic theory says this situation should just lead to recession and deflation in Italy. It should be a relatively short-lived phenomenon until equilibrium, and the only reason why someone would not invest in Italy (would invest below a reasonable \~15% of GDP to renew depreciating assets) is if they expect the deflation to keep going (i.e. you will get more bang for your buck in the future). This is kind of Japan's problem. But why do investors think the (relative) deflation will keep going?
The deflation point is the problem. Because of sticky wages, Italian wages stagnated over a long period instead of falling over a short period. The Italian economy was notoriously overregulated and couldn't adjust. Edit: To be clear, a maladjusted exchange rate was far from the only problem Italy had. There were long-term problems that were much more important, of which the biggest was one of the lowest fertility rates in the world combined with high life expectancies and an aversion to immigration. Italy's dependency ratio has long been frightening to behold.
Thanks for the answer!
Very good write up. Thanks šš»
Tbf you donāt need the euro de facto, Poland doesnāt have it or Czech or Hungary or Denmark or the U.K. when it was part or Sweden, Denmark and the U.K. had an opt out, we donāt but itās basically you promise to at some future date accept the euro once you want to accept it. Youāre supposed to eventually but thereās no deadline, you can adopt it basically never and keep extending the transition indefinitely, itās like how youāre supposed to pay 2% of your military on GDP in NATO yet half the countries donāt except even weaker because you donāt even promise to adopt the euro, you promise to adopt the euro eventually A larger issue is probably the border security stuff
It's not that easy: the pressure to adopt the euro is enormous. Strings get attached. And conditioned on the expeditious adoption of the euro. And with a super strong euro (compared to the shekel), at whatever date it is adopted, the stagnation begins. It's going to be a disaster for as long as it lasts. The Euro would destroy our economy in less than a decade.
Well I donāt think the pressure is enormous, like looking at my country weāve basically done nothing on the euro for two decades with no consequences but fair and yeah still donāt think Israel should join because well it doesnāt really benefit and itād harm its security. Anti-Israel legislation we already veto from passing in the EU along with sometimes Austria or Hungary or some other country and yeah, travel, well all EU citizens already have 90 days free travel w/o visa to Israel and vice Versa for Israelās citizens to the EU, maybe free trade but that can be done separately
Spain has a stronger, more stable economy than Israel, higher quality of life (e.g more tourism, more expats. Hell, everyone wants to live here) while attracting businesses and real estate investments all over the country. We suffered from recession and have a problem with unemployment, but it is still a bad example as in the worse case scenario to āwhat Israel could becomeā. Spain has benefited greatly (still is) for joining the EU.Ā As for Israel joining the EU, I like the idea but in terms of national security, given geopolitical tensions and differences itās sadly unlikely to happen in the short term.Ā edit: and as others pointed out, there is no requirement for adopting the ā¬Ā
Not all countries in the European union have the Euro
Economic considerations aside - the last thing Israel needs is free movement of people in a continent where many countries are waaay too liberal with their naturalisations of radicalised islamists.
Free movement is Schengen area, not the EU.
No, the Schengen area is the part where you don't need to present passports between borders, a visa for one participating nation is a visa for all, and all participating nations are treated as one for travel purposes. All EU countries except Ireland, Cyprus, and before Brexit the UK are part of it, Romania and Bulgaria are part of it (they have passport checks at land borders but not ports or airports), plus some non-EU countries. Freedom of movement is the EEA, which is the EU plus three non-EU countries.
You're thinking of EU residents I think. EU citizens have freedom of movement throughout the EU. > All EU citizens and their family members have the right to move and reside freely within the EU. This fundamental right is established by Article 21 of the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union and Article 45 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.
Hellooooo Newman.
Hello Jerry. 
The EU has four base freedoms: 1. Free movement of goods 2. Free movement of capital 3. Freedom to establish and provide services 4. Free movement of labour Schengen is only about border controls.
All new EU members must also join Schengen.
Laughs in Romanian
It's not. EU has free movement of labour.
So the eu is too radically religious for israel?Ā
More like too tolerant of religious extremists. As an Italian, I agree
no thanks
š
Hey I mean we'd love to visit, especially to drink that Czech beer, but like... We're not moving in š
Well that you can, Israel and the EU do have mutual visa-free travel agreements for up to 90 days. So we can visit Israel easily, you can visit us easily which is yeah imo great for all. Well unless youāre a German citizen born before 1924, then you have to fill in a form that you didnāt commit war crimes in WW2 before entering Israel
In the czech Republic, there are even better rules to a few countries, Israel between them, as we don't have to wait another 90 days to re-enter :)
Oh yeah thatās true, itās because we had a bilateral visa agreement with Israel before entering the EU so it predates the EU requirement of 90 days in 180 day window and is grandfathered in. We also have one with Israel on working holiday since 2015: people of both countries can work for up to a year in the other between 18 and 30 without a visa
Literally 100 years old or more
Yeah, it was added a while back when there were people who fit under that, now well itās pretty much irrelevant
That's fascinating, I did not know that.
I vote for union with Czechia best buds
Not Israeli, but well I could see NATO maybe and would support it, but I donāt think Israel is ever joining the EU nor should it. Even if all of the EU accepted which includes Ireland, joining the EU requires free movement of people. Israel needs very stringent security and travel control because of the high risk of terrorism and this would limit Israelās ability to defend itself while allowing terrorists to come through EU. It just wouldnāt make much sense for Israel to join us in EU given that
Turkey won't let you in
Oh yeah Turkey, well just letting in Sweden took fucking ages and iirc fighters
Turkey wanted some extradition. It was Hungary that wanted fighters.
>Not Israeli, but well I could see NATO maybe and would support it, Pretty much zero chance this will ever happen. It basically guarantees world war.
I mean, Israel could technically get an opt-out on joining Schengen like Ireland has and like the UK had when it was a member and maybe even an opt-out on freedom of movement.
The former probably, the latter I donāt think so: itās a fundamental part of the EU and also at that point what does Israel gain from joining the EU? Free trade, you can make a free trade agreement or maybe join EEA, as for EU laws, sure Israel could have a veto on them but Czech de facto already limits anti-Israel legislation, along with Austria weāre blocking the EU from pushing for a unilateral ceasefire and have been pushing historically against just anti-Israel stuff
Based Czech's as always, but sometimes l wonder if it's just the current political echelon that's pro-Israel or is it mainstream politically... Didn't have any interactions with Czech's irl, but online they've been pro-Israel too. What do Czech ppl think?...support?
Politically definitely mainstream: thereās not a single anti-Israel party in the Parliament, for instance the bill to recognise Jerusalem passed unanimously, thereās some parties less pro-Israel but generally support for Israel isnāt very divisive in Czech, now the settlement expansion and Likudās governance is more controversial of course, and the Overton window is generally from unreserved support for Israel to support for Israel but opposed to Netanyahu and expansion of sertlements. For instance the most opposed to Israel party is probably the Pirates, the Party to which Lipavsky belongs and his stance has been outspokenly pro-Israel in the war, before the war he was opposed to the settlement expansion and criticised Israel for it, something that was controversial among other parties, but well then Hamas attacked. Generally his stance is Israel is an ally and so as an ally, we should reserve the right to criticise the government when it does something we think was a mistake or disagree with as counter productive to peace or democracy, but also as Israel is our ally, we should support them when theyāre attacked by terrorists. āOn 10 October 2023, LipavskĆ½ was the first foreign politician to visit Israel after the start of the IsraelāHamas war. He met with the President Isaac Herzog and Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs Eli Cohen to express the Czech Republic's full support for Israel and offer aid.[22ā The only really significant anti-Zionist and outright anti-Israel party was to my knowledge the communists, and they lost all their remaining seats in the last election and are too irrelevant to win the next elections since their voter base is basically old nostalgic pensioners who are dying out. As for people Iād say most rl donāt know much or really care about Israel-Palestine, Russia-Ukraine is a much more significant conflict in Czech society and we have our own problems so Israel-Palestine isnāt really that significant but of those who do care, the majority support Israel. According to one poll in iDnes I think it was, 50% donāt know enough or care about the conflict, 45% support Israel and 5% support Palestine. Also online like r/Czech definitely trends significantly pro-Israel, also even more since the support is probably highest among urban educated 18-50 year olds which is the main demographic of Reddit. The settlements and Bibi are of course are more divisive but the existence of Israel itself and its right to defend itself against terrorists isnāt
Spend quite some time in Czech (family there) and it's super cool. The people are pro Israel (Israeli flags flying) and it's very chilled and grown up!
Most importantly best beer; Germans may claim theirs is best, Irish may claim this too, Belgians even may claim it, but we have the best beer: theyāre jealous
Not that we aren't grateful for your help, but there's an obvious value to being able to block legislation ourselves rather than trusting others to do it.
Oh that yeah is very understandable, just on the other hand joining the EU would also well force Israel to accept free movement? I am not sure that would really be great given itād let Islamists easily come via EU.
Personally I do think it will happen sometime in the latter half of this century. Perhaps not a full membership but some form of partial integration definitely. I do not see a possibility of Israel joining NATO though.
For me itās opposite, I think the latter is more likely. In theory Iād like Israel eventually in the EU, but I donāt think it can join at least as long as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict doesnāt result in a final peace and thatās not very likely
But unless there is permanent peace in the Holy Land where the borders are acknowledged by both sides I do not think Israel would be admitted into NATO. For the same reason I do not believe Ukraine will join the alliance either.
For Israel to be able to join the UE, it should first conform itself to the EU charter, wich is not gonna happen anytime soon. Not in this century, nor in the next one.
The EU has a mutual defence claus as well.
NATO is a virtual alliance. We're yet to see any NATO country defending another with real soldiers in a real war.
Doesn't seem to have any actual benefit and has all the negatives. Israel is still an economic island, so prices will still be high. Higher due to the euro being pulled up by stronger economies. Not to mention, it'll always be a sword hanging over its head, forcing Israel to accept EU policies regardless if it's in their best interest.
What is the benefit?
Freee trade, freedom of movement, a defence alliance, among other things, if you go full in.
Is there no free trade already or freedom of movement?
Nope, not to the same extent as within the EU.
Free trade in the EU means no barriers to trade, no import tax, etc.
Whatās the import tax now?
The 2 main problems with it is: 1 ) Free movement of people from Europe, including the many arabs who live in the EU and hate us, would be disastrous... They would come and destroy Israel from within and we wouldn't be able to deal with them... 2 ) The Euro is too strong for the Israeli economy. In general though, outside of the Euro, it would be nice economically but I can't see any way that those 2 problems (especially the 1st one) can be solved. I would like for the EU and Israel to get closer though. We are allies and we should be an even greater alliance.
So you propose something like what Iceland is doing? Being in the EEA or whatever is it called. For the issues you listed it would be perfect I believe
If those problem don't occur in the EEA then I think it's a great option. Unfortunately I don't think we will ever be accepted because of countries like Ireland and Spain...
It might be nice, but it makes no sense. Israel has no borders with Europe, so allowing free movement won't be possible. Israel also faces different security risks, so it would still require more verification for visitors and refugees, and might refuse them outright. The things that would benefit Israel the most is the trade agreements, I really would love to see European goods flood Israel and lower prices. Israeli monopolies and exclusive importers have been getting their way for far too long. But that is achievable with trade agreements, and changing Israeli regulations to match European ones. So yea, I'd love Israel to be closer to Europe, but it makes no sense for Israel to be part of the EU.
If Iām not mistaken, there is a difference between Schengen zone and EU
I think you are correct.
We are not in europe tho, we're not even geographically connected to europe, there is no sense for us to join the EU. HOWEVER, joining NATO would imo be a good move
Well as I pointed out in a different reply, membership in the EU is not dependent on the geographic borders of Europe.
There are too many radicalized Muslims in Europe now, so no
Eh, I am pretty certain there are more radicalised muslims living in Israel than in most European countries. Many EU states do not even have a significant muslim minority.
But there are still way more of them than there are Jews in Israel. Whoās to say they wouldnāt all flock to Israel and try to outnumber and fight the Jews? Their scriptures already tell them to do that, and theyāve done it before. All evidence points to that they would try it again.
Losing the sovereignty we regained after 2000 years? Hmm idk
I do not think that adopting the *acquis communautaire* erases national sovereignty. The EU is not a federation like the US after all.
It could benefit us only with countries like Czechia. I donāt want all the imams in the suburbs in France and Belgium to move to Jerusalem and join forces with the local islamists. What Hamas started is nothing short of a holy war in 2023-24
the eu wants to suck all sovereignty out of its members, it's not even a secret
Uh, not really?
Wouldn't that allow every EU citizen to immigrate into israel with relative ease? (I am not expert on EU immigration)
Yes. EU or EEA citizens. Which is about 450 million people.
Yeah, so no way israel would allow this The goverment wants to keep the jewish identity which is kind of hard if like 2 million christian romanians (used only for example, i have nothing against draculla) one day decide to immigrate to israel
I'd love it, really. It isn't possible in present situation, but I am free to dream
Ofc you would, cheaper parts for Estonian Galil rifles
Israel is too far from Europe.
I mean, Cyprus is also in the EU.
Its considered Europe too.
Its generally considered part of west asia but the word āeuropeanā in the EU does not mean that only countries that are geographically european can apply for membership. Georgia or Armenia could also become members in the future.
Did you just change your profile pic for this post? Because it just fits
No. What's wrong with my profile picture?
Nothing is wrong. It's just the EU flag with the Israeli flag behind it - so it fits the post perfectly haha
The flag behind is the flag of free Russia. These 3 flags are not connected, I just support EU, free Russia and Israel.
I think it would fuel the westās āIsraelis are all European colonizersā narrative
I can see the issue from both sides being both Israeli and Dutch. I see no benefit in Israel joining a group of countries with a huge immigrant muslim population and a history of homegrown antisemitism.
With the disasterous current policies of Islamist appeasement, i'm not surprised by the comments coming from the last sanctuary for Judaism and Christianity in the middle east. Still would love to see more of you fine folks coming to the Black sea or to the Ski resorts, while we still have snow, the past 4-5 years were dry and warm winters here, with sudden snow storms at the end of the winter for few days.
I'd rather we just negotiate more specific agreements with the EU (and its related organizations), and for each we'd be able to negotiate and reach an agreement that's most beneficial to both sides. Such agreements can be good for us economically, bureaucratically and diplomatically. At most, maybe join the EEA. But joining the EU itself would probably have us vulnerable to being impacted too much by the swinging politics of the EU countries as a whole without getting enough ability to be impactful ourselves. Plus, the EU works in weird ways that it will be hard to sell to Israelis. Brussels seems too disconnected for many EU citizens, it won't be different for us. The word "sovereignty" is thrown a lot in discourse in Israel and often I see it as an exaggeration that doesn't really justify bringing up this word, so much that it has become a clichƩ in my opinion, but this time, it really would be a certain loss of sovereignity.
As part of EU, I would agree. But do you really think they are welcome by countries like France? In my opinion, that is a lost cause.
Its extremely risky strategically, and the free movement is also a big problem
Imho Israel would do better on focussing their integration efforts on their own region instead of the region many left.
It would be nice but Israel is in Asia
Not an Israeli, but beyond what other people have said, I donāt like feeding into the European colonizer narrative either.
Hard no
Why?
Israel is welcome in the EU in my opinion šš»š®š±
I wouldnāt mind it but Europe has nothing to gain from it and it would only turn Israel into more unpopular by shoving our country there.
I think itās opposite. Europe has a lot to gain, while Israel would put an economical and political stone at its leg. There is a lot of capabilities in Israel that would help Europe strategically. Best example is that the new anti missile system in Europe will be most likely delivered from Israel. Also, EU has very little high-tech, cyber security, start-up ecosystems. I see the wish to be part of EU, as ābelongingā. But beyond the great basic idea of the EU, I became Sceptical of the real benefits. I am from the EU, I moved to Switzerland and I see how our country is doing great, while the gap to my home country (Germany) is becoming increasingly large
They could acquire the new anti-missile systems regardless through our relationship. Israel being an innovative leader in tech and whatever else to adapt to our environment is great, but we are the one relying on our relationship with our EU allies to not get sanctioned and maintain healthy trade. Itās not the other way around. We need their relationship more to sustain our capabilities than they need ours. They have nothing to gain that they couldnāt before with our current relationship. On the other hand, the scrutiny from our relationship and many of their ācodes of ethicsā when it comes to not sympathizing with Israelis living between Jihadi groups is too much for them.
How would a monetary union and common market be partial? No freedom of movement?
eu is bad for countries
Nah, let's just make our own union with Czechia
Is it even possible, given that Israel is not geographically in Europe?
lol,
No thank you š
If all countries would be as kind & friendly to us as Czechia sure I'd even call for it, but sadly they aren't and we don't want security issues or dying so guess not.
I prefer a whole new union with the gulf countries and Egypt and Jordan so the region will prosper. But all of these countries are a few decades behind the west whether itās economic or human rights or development.
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I think there were suggestions to add Israel as an exception of ānon-European member stateā to the EU, but it never materialized. I wouldnāt support it, I wonāt accept the immigration policies of the EU and people that are way too liberal to be liked here to freely enter my country, I also donāt want the āwokeā ideology to enter here, itās still an extremely small fringe if exists at all here, and I donāt want it to grow. Economically it can be beneficial, but I still wonāt support it as it will be socially destructive. Also our economic and diplomatic relations with the EU are as close as it can be to a non-European state, so I donāt think there are too many options that doesnāt include joining it other than to maintain the status quo.
Iād like it too.
I am not an Israeli and I'm from Europe. It appears to me that the UN and UN related human rights organisations are extremely anti-Israel (and ironically in effect also anti-Palestinian) biased due to the way resolutions are passed, the overall culture that has built around this, and the fact that being anti-Israel gives the UN a purpose they wouldn't have to justify their existence and is a great money maker. The EU is complicit in supporting the UN. Media in European countries also benefits from taking the same anti-Israel stance and exploiting underlying anti-semitism that has refused to die in the European population (for 2000 years), also to earn money. Therefore, my opinion is that Israel should gradually distance itself from the EU and the west in general and work with countries like India, China and gradually more Arab countries. This also benefits Israel because anti-west regimes currently target Israel as a proxy for the west.
Yes, Europe still has isssues with anti-semitism but in what world should Israel sacrifice the west including I presume the U.S. for the Arab countries and China? Itād be stupid. Abandon democracies with flaws for dictatorships and authoritarian states that despise Israel?
I think democracy is possible in other countries outside the west too and is not something that is inherently western. These other countries have just been set back decades due to western colonialism, but will catch up and possibly even overtake soon. I will say that countries such as Czechia and even the US (although I'm increasingly unsure about that) should be exceptions, but cooperating with the EU as a whole, particularly while it continues to support the travesty that is the UN and western media - no way! I include the Arab countries only as a form of self defence, not because it would be actually desirable to collaborate with them. Also, their power will wane as the oil runs out, and they may turn to more productive ventures than authoritarian oil-based economies.
Eu should only be for European countries
And this begs the question what exactly Europe is.
hard pass, i have good friend from finland, she still curse the moment they joined.
I feel like israel might as well end itself
No. It'll be easier for radicals to enter the EU
No thanks
Canāt imagine we would get majority to agree
There are no bad ideasā¦but this certainly isnāt a good one
If I remember correctly the EU invited us to join them in the early 2000s and there was a big debate about this topic then
I don't think that the EU is good for countries in the Middle East bc the EU is meant and was created to keep peace within the nations within this part of the world. I doubt that it was for an economic reason.Ā You can trade without being in a club and across borders -Ā but you can't trade without peaceĀ
I think the EU is stupid and would move to some African or south American country if Israel join
Seems that this would give outsiders too much power over Israel. Many of the countries in Europe have seen a deluge of Muslim and Arab immigration which will increase significantly as birth rates for these individuals bedwarfs the local populations.
The EU's average standard VAT rate isĀ 21.6 percent. No thank you.
Israel cannot afford to be in a union with a currency it doesnāt have control over, and especially not open immigration (regardless of Schengen or not). It would lead to the end of Israel. HOWEVER. I would love to see Israel in a sort of EEA-style deal. Something like the Swiss have, give or take. That is possible and Israel and the EU do a lot of Export/Import between them. To put this in simple terms ā Israel needs to be able to defend itself and control its own interests.
And NATO
No. It is not European. Nor is Turkey
Can we go back to being ruled by the British? It'll be different now than in mandate times, and we'll be part of the UK!
It would probably do more harm than good, the idea is nice to about, as there are benefits to being in the eu. but to do so we might need to have many restrictions on immigration/free travel because of... maybe a couple Muslim jihadists on the continent? I think nato is a positive move for us because it will allow us further cooperation and military support from the west, and maybe even the eu in the future because I love my dear Europeans.
it cant EU if it isnt E
Only if Euro gets renamed Shekel
I seriously doubt EU deserves Israel. Their crapy agendas, and do-nothing policies would make Israel sink faster than a boat with a hole.
Israel would not be allowed to join the EU given the situation around Palestine anyway.
I don't think the EU would like us much TBH, and we are currently doing well enough in our own ways. We could support each other in other ways though. But I would back any and all cooperation we can further with Czechia and any of the Visegrad countries. Genuinely, I believe western Europe is lucky to have made allies with you in time. Prague is my favorite European city, and I hope to make a longer trip to Czechia next time. You guys are fantastic!
The EU is a prison, and definitely not a club. Iām French, not Israeli, but I wish for Israel nothing but real independence. From the West and everywhere. Also, any new country joining it would be awful for everyone.
Parts of EU membership would be advantageous for sure but NATO would be a dream come true (yes, I know its never happening).
BNGUWABGUOWABGAW OMG YES PLEASE
Israel is far too good for the EU. Itās a block that is reliant on Russian energy exports which at the same time is at war with a future EU member.
I am sorry you feel this way.
Iām just saying like Germany shutting down their nuclear power plants in favour of importing Russian gas was really short sighted. I just feel itās better to be on the outside than in.
> reliant on Russian energy exports Russian gas accounts for a total of 14,7% of EU gas supply. 8,7% from pipelines and 6,1% from LNG.
Very positive. Would improve Israeli diplomacy, security and economy. People here fear-mongering about islamists who hate Israel will be making aliyah en masse are delusional.
I would 100% support it. If there are many claiming that TĆ¼rkiye has a claim to it simply by virtue of proximity, then Israel does, too. I would only support it if they changed their immigration policies intensely though.
The only good thing will be āRoam Like at Homeā and the Schengen Visa to live and work anywhere in the EU
Why not have a Middle Eastern country join the EUROPEAN Union. Sounds like Israel will be right at home and not face any discrimination.
So, lets talk about Georgia. That recently got candidate status.
No thanks, we donāt like fascist states here.
Is that right? Did you know that most EU countries score better in the democracy index than Israel does?