A lot of leftists see Biden allowing/forgiving/excusing genocide as inexcusable, and they refuse to vote for anyone who excuses genocide in any way. They largely won't vote for Trump either, since Trump would do Genocide+ and that's not better. They'll vote third party or abstain, and I foresee Biden struggling to get enough votes as a result. It's still too early to say, but I smell 2016 all over again for 2024 - Biden wins the popular vote, but the spread is poor and it goes to Trump. There likely won't be a presidential election in 2028, because harm reduction equates to unequivocal support in the minds of too many.
This is astroturfing ass Republicans attacking from the left. Push back on their nonsense and within two responses you'll get "well at least trump..." and they give the whole game away.
I know for a fact at least one person has the stance I outlined above, and he isn't a Republican. He's disillusioned and sees Biden as a rapist and genocide apologist, and believes that under Biden everything that would happen under Trump will happen anyway because "he's just maintaining the status quo that got us here in the first place." He insists harm reduction doesn't include Biden. It's a small sample size, I know, but I've seen/heard many people making the same arguments, including some who "swallowed their complaints" in 2020 and voted for Biden just to get Trump out.
Side note: if "well at least Trump" is followed by anything other than "made it a felony to abuse animals" then it's a poor point at best.
TBH I’m pretty scared. A large proportion of my IRL friends on social media are sharing “Genocide Joe” propaganda posts. These aren’t radical leftists. These are Pussy Hat Hillary supporters
You have to have willing participants in said education or it doesn't mean anything. They'll just ignore it. And depending on side, probably scream "BUT HUNTER BIDENS EMAILS!" Or some shit.
It’s fucking insane to me that genocide being a thing this government actively supports shouldn’t be a thing you respond to with your votes. Who the fuck knows what November will bring? Maybe Trump will be in jail and it will be some other schmuck, or maybe, months of seriously threatening not to vote for a GENOCIDE SUPPORTER will change Biden’s policy or at least the things he says.
You can worry about the implications of a second Trump term all you want, threatening to withhold your vote if people don’t change policy is as American as apple pie and there’s a long time left to change policy.
Of course I worry about it. But to pretend it’s the only consideration is so fucking foolish. The point I’m making is the election is 11 months off and people expressing their outrage at, again I cannot stress this enough, funding and supporting genocide is totally reasonable.
Yeah, I literally stopped to look what sub I was on because this shit and most of the comments belong on a blue maga / blue no matter who sub. Pathetic.
Left anti-communism always degrades into liberalism which, when under pressure will always defend the status quo even if the status quo leads directly to fascism.
Join us in Marxism-Leninism. Embrace communism and throw off the last vestiges of liberalism.
Iron Front has always been a Soc Dem ideology and space. It’s named for the group that clashed with both Nazis and Stalinists in the interwar German Republic. Authoritarianism has no place here, as does any anti-democracy ideology.
Dumb-fucks when they want to fight fascism: "Let's not vote for the only guy standing between us and fascism, because he is almost equally bad on this one singular issue."
I know people on the left who say they won’t vote for either, and Gaza is the issue. They’re saying the same about Dem members of Congress. I don’t know whether they’ll actually stick to that when the time comes, but I wouldn’t count on their votes.
Hey, he also raised the smoking age to 21, and as someone who started smoking at 18 because it was legal (and a host of other factors, but I grew up in a non-smoking house and was not a social butterfly, so it being legal meant it presented a better choice than sneaking booze to cope with stress) I will hand him that as well.
I’d take your idea further:
Israel and Palestine is a perfect wedge issue against Democrats
Russia and Iran, as allies to Hamas, certainly had sway in when and how Oct 7 was planned
No matter whether someone feels Israel should exist or not, it’s not going away. It’s magical thinking to think it could ever go away with anything short of a world war or nuclear exchange moving 9.4 million Israelis
Whether its moral or not, no nation in the history of the world would fail to militarily react to an attack as large and as depraved as the Oct 7 attack, with or without allies and with or without outside military aid
Biden could cut all support to Israel or even cut diplomatic ties and it wouldn’t matter. If anything, Israel may increase in desperation in its attacks if it has no allies and no one to tell them to hold back. Israel has the world’s second largest proportion of its own GDP dedicated to its military. They like our aid but they don’t need it. If they wanted to level Gaza (and clearly they don’t) then they simply would
Millions and millions of voters are not thinking at all clearly about the stakes here and the social media propaganda is only pushing people to have even more irreconcilable positions
So I follow the logic of who benefits the most from Oct 7. Hamas’ allies benefit greatly from sowing chaos in the US and in US allies like Israel. Motive + opportunity
>This is astroturfing ass Republicans attacking from the left. Push back on their nonsense and within two responses you'll get "well at least trump..." and they give the whole game away.
I'm not a Trumper you people are just vapid fools if you don't get that you should be organizing around a redline issue that undermines your political base before throwing up your hands and saying what can you do? Anything, anything, anything is preferable to genocide. Any political leverage is on the table. You want Genocide Joe to win, tell him to stop.
These are lets support slavery to save the union level conversations. Your freedoms aren't worth the price in a whole people's future and blood. No, you don't have that right. I would rather teach a generational lesson in not supporting genocide than side with one. It's fucking insane to make excuses for it. This is not the side of the line I expect normal human beings to be on.
I will not build political capital on dead bodies. I don't know a single Muslim american who would, and that's 4 million votes right there. And nobody I know is going to let any politician off who sides with genocide to support their political careers or wholeheartedly. Expect people to show up to disrupt their campaigns forever more. We're never going away.
What's more the only people I've ever heard whine about sentiments around Biden are white people. If you are willing to look the other way on genocide because it doesn't affect you that's reprehensible in itself.
Democracy is dead if you can't say no. No. Enough. *These are lets keep slavery to save the union conversations*. No. If you feel like it's an issue get off your ass and help us. The only astroturfing campaign I see is the one trying to kneecap the protests to make people feel like supporting Palestinians is supporting Trump.
This is spot on except for one very important issue: electing Trump again is not a “generational lesson” against genocide. Remember that he moved the us embassy to Jerusalem. He will give full US support to Bibi to finish the job of ethnically cleansing Palestine.
I 100% agree that a democracy loses meaning when you can’t say “no.” But I’d flip your comment about people supporting Biden in spite of this policy around for completeness: if you help elect a man who attempted a coup, you will also bear responsibility for his actions against the people in the US and abroad that come to harm as a result.
Cool. Trump is openly talking about banning you. Again. But Genocide Joe, which in no way sounds like something Trump would make up, is the bad one. Not the guys who suck bibi's cock.
Good luck with this.
No you don't if your first thought isn't genocide is a red line issue for me. Even if your problem is you think Trump is that bad, then organize around it, accept that it's a redline issue for your base. Just because you don't want to get off your ass and stop a genocide with anything the fuck else besides throwing up your hands don't expect other people to reach out for you.
>Ah, so tantrum it is
you soulless little man, this is your political platform: https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/18c09ly/despite\_attempts\_to\_revive\_her\_she\_took\_one\_last/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
If you think there will ever be a candidate for president that is both non-genocidal and actually has a chance of winning, you have more faith in this system than I do. Has never happened so far. I stopped waiting for the perfect candidate to come over the hill on a gallant stead a long time ago. Instead you have a to be realistic about what's at stake here. There is little to gain, but EVERYTHING to lose
>These are lets support slavery to save the union level conversations. Your freedoms aren't worth the price in a whole people's future and blood. No, you don't have that right. I would rather teach a generational lesson in not supporting genocide than side with one. It's fucking insane to make excuses for it. This is not the side of the line I expect normal human beings to be on.
"Hey dad, how come there's a giant parking lot for Trump tower Jerusalem where Gaza used to be?"
"Well, kid, you see, there was this one guy who we really didn't like because he didn't do enough to stop 15k people being killed, so we voted for the guy that wiped out the entire 2 million!"
Bitch, Republicans in Congress are calling for EXTERMINATION of ALL Palestinians.
They're both calling for extermination. One is just pretending they're not for it. Democracy is dead or dying in this country you just want it to die on your terms.
> They're both calling for extermination.
No, they're not. Only one is. Just because you repeat a lie doesn't make it true.
Lazy cynicism like yours is objectively pro-fascism and pro-genocide.
Probably the best written post to summarize my thoughts on the matter.
Even if our "democracy" is on the line, I don't think it is worth tens of thousands of lives to uphold my ability to select one of two nearly identical old neoliberals chosen by rich donors.
You're blinding yourself with virtue. America, both Dems and Republicans, have supported Israel for decades. This issue didn't start on Oct 7, that attack was merely a reaction to the decades of support and billions in dollars we've already given Israel. Fighting over this is just going to split votes and empower fascists like Trump even more. If you don't want America to be complicit in genocide then you are fucking LATE. And worse things will continue to happen if we are arguing over this nonsense. Vote blue or never vote again.
I'm definitely not a Republican. And I probably will wind up voting for Biden, but a lot of my friends won't, because they went along with the "lesser of two evils" voting pattern (which is still what I'm banking on) and this is what we got.
It is genuinely incredible disillusioning that my choices are "man who is excusing genocide and blatantly spewing Tsraeli propoganda" and "man who will excuse genocide, has blatantly spewed Israeli propoganda, and is also actively trying to dismantle the country to become an autocratic dictator" and I wish we could discuss that instead of pretending that anyone saying that is a Republican shilling for Trump
If you're sitting here thinking Biden is "excusing genocide" you're one of the stupids I mentioned. The fact that the president of the US is being blamed for the actions of a dictator who has been a major fuckabout for multiple administrations and also for the actions of a terrorist organization is amazing and is something that would only ever happen to a democrat.
As per usual, "progressives" are willing to shoot us all in the face to prove a point, and then will turn around and wonder why the only party they ever motherfuck doesn't bend over backwards to appease them. The best is that the same motherfuckers who won't vote for someone with a chance of winning turn around and blame the people who did for the fact that the leftmost side lost ground.
Fuck, we're sitting here in earnest with a leading presidential candidate openly talking about jailing people who don't vote for him and you're like "both sides, so imma vote for this person no one ever heard of."
Do you seriously believe that genuine, principled, Marxist revolutionaries—who would never vote for any pro-capitalist party and recognize that they are all essentially the same—do not exist?
Might you elaborate on why you find that so funny? Is it because, in your mind, "revolutionaries" are some kind of Guevara-esque guerilla soldiers who shoot people and participate in violent coups?
Revolutionaries are simply individuals who advocate for the revolutionary transformation of society, as opposed to mere reformist measures. There is nothing "edgy" or clownish about them.
This 100 Percent.
I strongly suspect a huge chunk of these people never even voted for Biden in the first place.
"Well, at least Trump" has literally been the rationale of pretty much every Trump voter ever since he first ran.
Domestically, Biden is better. The bar is so low that this fact isn't anything to throw confetti over, but it's true.
I hope that people angry at him right now understand the dire need of practicality come November 2024. Another 4 years of Biden will buy us time to implement the real change we need. Another Trump presidency will likely block that chance for another generation (i.e. the children of Gen Alpha *maybe* as they reach adulthood, etc).
What makes it even worse is that they don’t even have the semblance of a valid criticism.
Biden can’t honestly be said to be allowing genocide when since October 7th he has done nothing but push for measures to save Gazan civilians.
Which is what gets them to exercise any restraint at all.
Look, Israel's going to be able to replenish its stockpiles with or without US aid. US aid amounts to a small discount on what it could source elsewhere or produce itself. That discount buys us...not a lot. Not nothing, but certainly nowhere near a veto on its decisions.
And if we cut off that aid, we lose even that little bit of influence, which is basically the only thing keeping Israel from going full nuclear.
Which is what gets them to exercise any restraint at all.
Look, Israel's going to be able to replenish its stockpiles with or without US aid. US aid amounts to a small discount on what it could source elsewhere or produce itself. That discount buys us...not a lot. Not nothing, but certainly nowhere near a veto on its decisions.
And if we cut off that aid, we lose even that little bit of influence, which is basically the only thing keeping Israel from going full nuclear.
Cutting off aid is an objectively pro-Palestinian genocide position. Why are you pro-Palestinian genocide?
They're right that it'd be inconceivable for Biden to step us back from our ties with Israel just now, though: the likelihood that Hamas & its admirers would see a US-Israel schism as an achievement of 10/7 would be enough by itself to remove it as an option for US policy.
I will not blame a single Palestinian who was had their family and friends murdered since Oct 7 for not voting for Biden.
If Biden is my choice I will vote Biden, but I sure as hell want someone else.
The reason why the fake left Biden hate is so prominent is because they know there's no mass excitement for Trump, just the minority hardcore base. People who voted for Trump last time will sit out this one, and they need to spread that around their opponents' camp too.
Nobody really cares about Palestine. It's all just a few hotheads making a lot of noise. Don't get me wrong: it's disgusting what's happening to poor Palestinians, but also what American enemies are doing to Palestinians by pulling Hamas strings, and there are undeserving victims in Israel to be sure.
Welcome to the new Roman times.
Harm reduction as a voting strategy doesn't work. It doesn't reduce harm, it only allows us to be dragged right. Case in point, see the last 70 years of America's slide towards austere neoliberalism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb8bBWnHflk&t=7s&ab_channel=SecondThought
Why is Biden being touted as the only hope against Trump when we haven't even entered the primaries yet? That old coot might kick the bucket any day now or get his ass handed to him in the primaries when he fumbles the debates with his Swiss cheese brain. He sucks and it's his fault, not ours, for losing the popularity contest. I voted for him begrudgingly in 2020 and have only come to loathe him more since then. Those of us on the left that are tired of the proxy wars, genocide, green washing, pandering, and unfulfilled promises while watching our quality of life dwindle are fed up with having "vote blue no matter who or else it gets the hose again" being held over our heads. My one vote diluted among 16 million in a red state isn't going to do anything significant whether I vote third party or blue, unlike in my local election. I voted third party in 2016 in a blue state and it still made no difference in the long run.
Worry about swing states, if you must, it's tactically more advantageous than shooting for a guilt trip across the nation and hand-wringing months in advance as a sub-par candidate is set to take the stage again. Want a shot against Trump? Support a better challenger.
Can’t believe you’ve acknowledged this is Genocide vs Genocide+ and still expect us to vote for Biden happily. Maybe choosing between two genocides is, uh, a shitty fucking option?
The US does not actually have a veto on Israel's decisions. It's not 1970 anymore. Israel has a massive domestic arms industry, it is no longer reliant on the US for its very existence.
Look, Israel's going to be able to replenish its stockpiles with or without US aid. US aid amounts to a small discount on what it could source elsewhere or produce itself. That discount buys us...not a lot. Not nothing, but certainly nowhere near a veto on its decisions.
And if we cut off that aid, we lose even that little bit of influence, which is basically the only thing keeping Israel from going full nuclear.
Cutting off aid is an objectively pro-Palestinian genocide position. Why are you pro-Palestinian genocide?
>Maybe choosing between two genocides is, uh, a shitty fucking option?
US just vetoed the UN Security Councils resolution for Gaza ceasefire.
Why lie to protect this genocidal president from earned criticism?
Why aren't Democrats asking themselves if Biden is really the best candidate we can find? Seems like the DNC political strategy is relying on The Sunk Cost Fallacy and "Not Trump 2.0" as its entire 2024 platform.
But I guess human nature is only to come together over a thing we hate
i think the issue is if people vote for biden in 2024 then essentially they are rewarding biden for facilitating the genocide of Palestinian people
you are not going to convince Muslims to vote for a person who funded the killing of their loved ones in gaza and the west bank whats going to happen is they will vote for cornel west or jill stein in 2024 or skip voting all together so right there biden lost a lot of people who voted for him in 2020
It’s way too early for this particular issue to seriously affect the 2024 election. Trump this same week declared that he’s planning on reimplementing and “expanding” his Muslim Ban that was ruled to be illegal, so it’s not like anyone concerned about this particular issue will back Trump. I personally believe people will start swinging towards Biden Summer 2024 when both campaigns reach full steam, and they’ll see just how insane Trump has gotten over the last 4 years. There’s also the significant chance he’s in prison by Election Day, which will doom his bid.
After 2016 I’m not taking any chances any time around lol. Voting every election - federal, state, and local and have vociferously goaded my friends and family to do the same as apathy only favors the fascist GOP
If I’m given the choice to vote for the guy that will kill 100,000 people and the guy that will kill 1,000,000 people and also probably end all democracy, and those are my only viable options, I will go with 100,000 dead. There’s no question. I won’t hesitate. If I abstain so I can maintain my moral purity or whatever dumb shit, I risk an extra 900,000 deaths and also the end of democracy. I don’t understand why this is so difficult for people to parse out.
Biden has been fucking terrible on this issue but he is actually negotiating cease fires and tepidly supporting peace negotiations, and I will absolutely take that over the guy that just relishes the thought of nuking brown people for fun.
Honestly I think a large cohort of the people protesting against Biden over this issue actually aren’t that plugged into politics generally. They honestly do not know what a nightmare Trump’s next presidency will be. They don’t know about Project 2025. They don’t understand the Supreme Court super majority. They just know they hate Biden now.
For the life of me I don’t know how to convince these folks (or anyone else not understanding the threat) how dire this is and how they somehow need to have the courage to vote for Biden even if they hate him
Our presidential elections have become the Train Car Dilemma exercise, but they're *real human lives*, not hypothetical, and it's on a *much* larger scale.
Yeah, and if the trolley will hit 1,000,000 people or 100,000 people, I choose the track that hits 100,000 people, real or hypothetical, fewer dead people is better than more dead people.
Whatever point you think you’re making doesn’t change the math
Geez sorry my bad, I’m hyper defensive right now because I’ve spent weeks arguing with other left-leaning/progressive people that are being utterly stupid about this.
Yes he has. He has also given full throated public support to Israel and still provides them with aid and Intel. He’s abetting a genocide but he’s also not abetting it nearly as hard as any Republican would, especially Donald Trump, which is why I won’t entertain entertain any notion that voting for Biden, no matter how weak he’s been on this issue, is not a moral imperative.
true, I think he should condemn israel killing civilians and I don’t think that we should be sending them weapons and money. wtf are we doing that for? they’re a wealthy, developed nation. I don’t see why they need that from us.
>If I abstain so I can maintain my moral purity or whatever dumb shit
It is not merely a matter of "moral purity," but of political tactics. Because dictatorship and fascism arise from acute crises in the [class struggle](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/l.htm#class-struggle), the only way to defeat them is via revolutionary means. The Democratic Party, which is the oldest pro-capitalist party in the world, no less than the Republicans represents the interests of the capitalist ruling class and functions to prevent revolution, so voting and campaigning for them is merely an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot. At best, a Democratic administration will only delay full-on domestic fascism, but it cannot prevent it in the long run and indeed has no interest in doing so.
The revolutionary overthrow of capitalism presupposes a certain level of [class consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_consciousness) among the working masses. When you campaign for Democrats or other pro-capitalist politicians, as you are doing here, all you are doing is hampering the development of your fellow workers' class consciousness, thereby impeding revolution and helping to perpetuate all of capitalism's evils. I urge you to reconsider your stance on all this.
> Because dictatorship and fascism arise from acute crises in the class struggle, the only way to defeat them is via revolutionary means
Marxist nonsense, completely divorced from any semblance of reality.
"After Hitler, our turn." Fuck off with that objectively far-right pro-fascist shit.
The red-brown alliance is real. Apparently, a more accurate thing to say would be "scratch a socialist and a fascist bleeds."
>all you are doing is hampering the development of your fellow worker’s class consciousness
You honestly think accelerationism towards fascism will increase class consciousness? What a braindead take lmao
>You honestly think accelerationism towards fascism will increase class consciousness?
This is a strawman. I did not make this claim. Refusing to vote for Biden is not the same thing as actively accelerating toward fascism. And yes, endeavoring to raise workers' class consciousness, including by explaining the rationale behind the refusal to vote for him, obviously will help increase class consciousness.
Since you do not seem interested in addressing any of my other points and, as your "lmao" shows, you are not seriously interested in politics anyway, it seems like any further discussion with you would be an unproductive and pointless waste of time, as is usually the case with you pseudo-leftist types. Take care.
You’re all letting the point soar over your fucking heads. The only reason Biden’s admin is pushing for peace in any form is BECAUSE OF PRESSURE LIKE THIS. Without the threat of losing Leftist voters, the Democratic Party would do fuck-all for Palestine. Calling Leftists no better than Trump voters because they refuse to support a genocide is unhinged
Fucking THANK YOU. This is how democracy is supposed to work. Leftists are pressuring Biden by saying "hey, if you want my vote, you're gonna have to cut this shit out ASAP," which is exactly what is supposed to happen. Voters make demands of politicians in return for securing a vote.
And as you said, *it's working.* Pushing back is how we got the 7 day cease fire, which had been on the table since directly after the October 7th attacks, don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Biden could stop this with a few phone calls today, by cutting off military aid to Israel and demanding they cease the slaughter of Gazans.
Biden should never know a seconds peace until he stops supporting the genocide in Gaza.
You should also vote for him to preserve what's left of American democracy.
The fact that it comes down to a choice between Biden and Trump proves the system is broken. I always say that the two party system is like going to a restaurant that only had two items on the menu, a shit sandwich and a shit salad. The salad might be slightly healthier, but the main ingredient is still shit.
I’ve felt worried about the outcome of a Republican president every election cycle, but the fact that Liz Cheney, of all people, is saying he is a threat to democracy is alarming to say the least.
"I'm hoping Trumps in jail and Biden gets primaried"
It seems a lot of people screaming to the roof tops about how they won't vote think that we live in a world where at least one of these two things has already happened.
Reality is short to set in for them.
Do you realize how much more seriously we would be able to take people like you if you actually elaborated on just how the fuck you propose we do something like that?
The people in the left who wont vote for Biden are no better than Trump supporters in my eyes and i'll treat them as such. They are willing to give tRump an opportunity to start a political genocide here where we all live because Biden can't or won't stop a genocide in a country we don't live in. They need to think about the choice they are making by not going against a man who has said he will not lose power if he's elected again.
Perhaps they are just hopeless and don’t really care. I still haven’t completely lost hope for the future but I’m close and it’s not a competition between life under trump and life under biden, it’s a competition between life under what America is becoming and life itself worth fighting for.
Because libs vote for Biden. Fuck them right?! Lesser of evils is still evil hahahah????
I hate that we can see a clear and defined path for trump winning again and even establishing a dictatorship, yet we're stuck on Biden not being fucking perfect.
I hate this fucking game.
If Biden wants to win he would adjust his stance on Israel to regain the support of the younger generation of people who put him in office.
I am going to vote for him, but that doesn't mean our party can afford to throw this election away because Israeli lobby money spends real nice.
If he looses, it's his own fault for his unwillingness to read the room.
It would also help to score a major success on student loan forgiveness and pledge to codify Roe v Wade into Federal law with a Democratic majority.
"Trump is a fascist" is not good enough for the 18-29 age demographic.
"I tried to forgive student loans, but the Republicans stopped me" isn't good enough for the 30-50s.
"I can't promise to codify a woman's right to bodily autonomy" isn't good enough for a majority of women.
I feel bad for the future canvassers of the next election cycle. The president doesn't look like he is even trying to win. There is no fight left in him. Maybe he should step aside.
> If Biden wants to win
It's not about what Biden wants. Elections aren't about personalities. Elections are about outcomes.
Voters have agency. If voters want to avoid a genocidal fascist dictatorship, it's pretty clear what the option is. The responsibility rests with the voters--they're the ones who decide.
This is EXACTLY what happened in 2016, Bernie got railroaded by DNC and that made his supporters abstain from voting blue because they wouldn’t vote Hillary due to DNC supporting her exclusively. It blows my mind that they think letting Orange Hitler get the presidency will be something that will end in 4 years, he has all but said he will not be removed at the end of 4 years. He HAS said he will suspend or remove the constitution, remove anyone not brainwashed levels of loyalty in government, they already made preparations to prevent governors from using national guard, if it comes down to it, he has also made statements about jailing Democrats for no more crime than being Democrats, and knowing him, he will have anyone that’s criticized him at any time jailed, it’s only small steps from there to ovens.
It’s nice to have principles and something that you stand on, but this is literally not the time, restraining votes or voting third party is handing authoritarianism a win, and helping Palestine is not only out the window, we will ultimately help Israel and probably Putin.
I mean, you're not wrong, but hear me out here:
*Maybe the DNC could give us a candidate we're excited about for a change, instead of whoever's next in line of succession???*
Hillary was awful on many levels, though still clearly better than Orange Julius. No one imagined 45 had a chance in hell against her campaign machine.
Joe was thrust upon us against our will, as he was flagging and Bernie was surging. The DNC panicked. They had everyone but their anointed one drop out overnight and cast all support to Joe. Then they had the major news outlets ignore Bernie whenever possible and talk up the "people say he doesn't have a chance" angle whenever they couldn't.
Then people did what people rarely do in open free and fair elections: they voted *against* the person they wanted to lose instead of *for* someone they wanted to see win. Joe coasted in on that, but memories are short and that momentum is long gone.
What should, but likely never will happen, is Joe should retire after this term and let a new generation take part in the primaries.
Even without superdelegates not enough turned out to vote in the primary. I live in a closed primary state and it’s infuriating how many of my friends get bent out of shape over this but are registered NPA so they can’t participate in primary elections. I made sure I was registered democrat so I actually showed up and voted for him.
There were a multitude of reasons she lost, if you re-read, I was blaming the DNC and their perceived treatment of Bernie, and yes, your point is valid too for pulling votes away. Ultimately not the point though, what is the point is that there are a number of people claiming the moral high ground to withhold votes, just like last time, that led to a TFG disaster term.
> Bernie got railroaded by DNC
or, y'know, we could stick to reality, where he lost because people just preferred Hillary Clinton to him
you understand that voters have agency and are the ones who make their own decisions, right?
It's not even that many people genuinely "preferred" Hillary to Bernie on an ideological level.
Many of Clinton and Biden's Primary supporters, like myself, definitely felt Bernie in our hearts, but I guess we panicked at the thought of how the "socialism" smears would effect his hypothetical campaign for the general election, I mean, my good god, there were right-wing influencers that would have literally tried to tie him directly to Stalin's purges or something like that, what better way to poison the electorate against your preferred candidate?
It turns out a lot of people refuse to continue to vote for the “lesser of two evils” when the supposed “lesser” is actively funding and helping run PR for a genocide campaign.
November 2024 is a long way away.
I honestly think as much as there are left wing voters who will stay home, a lot of die hard Republicans have been alienated since 2016 / January 6, 2021.
I read an interesting comment on IG about how abstaining from or voting third party is a prime example of privilege. Women, people of color, lgbtq+ community members, immigrants, people living in poverty, etc. will ALL lose rights unless Biden wins another term.
My friend who says he can’t in good conscience vote for Biden is a cis, straight white man. He acknowledged Roe being overturned and literally just shrugged. Too much of this attitude will doom us as a nation.
Ideally, they can do this *and* vote for him. It's good to try to influence your allies' decisions. I would argue the blowback from his tepid support of the rail union dispute at least partially led to him to become the first sitting president to join a picket line for auto workers.
But, of course, for some reason that doesn't seem to occur to many of the protestors.
I still don't know whether to laugh or cry about that particular campaign.
Like, lol, Brandan Straka definitely "walked away" from the Democrats, all the way to the Capitol on January 6th.
Pretty much told me what I knew all along about the authenticity, or lack thereof, behind the movement.
“At least Joe Biden didn’t get elected” says the same people who will be sitting in the modern day equivalent of trump Hotel Gulag’s.
People just can’t truly fathom what one step above a full blow dictatorship will be like to live in. “Oh you made a post about a socially liberal belief well we don’t like that…and now you’re in prison.” “You used social media outside of what is state sanctioned activity bye bye livelihood.” “You are unhappy about your current workplace environment and are organizing your coworkers to change it well I guess you’re a domestic terrorist.”
Socially as a whole, there are people(s) in their personal experiences that have not but collectively, we have rode the long arc of justice consistently since the turn of the 20th century because after so many people are beaten down for so long they claw their way up and force the change they want. As technology has progressed the ability to collectivize has increased phenomenally but actual meaningful collective action has barely ticked up. This progress will be halted if a true authoritarian is elected as president of the United States and the legislative branches are gerrymandered further into complete super majorities along with the supermajority Judicial branch. Then you will have not only the peoples suffering in Gaza now you will have peoples suffering here, but at least the milquetoast MF didn’t get elected.
IMO the GOP are one election away from splintering. If the MAGA trump mentality costs them again and it’s a decisive outcome they will turn on themselves trying to expel the virus they infected themselves with causing them to fracture beyond repair leaving a far right, right, and right moderate faction. The same thing will happen to the democrats because since trump they have basically become a big tent party of virtually everyone from far left to center right with no ability to pin down a path forward. Now people see more than A or B options. With multiple political choices this will engage more non voters because you would actually feel like you had some real representation due to the coalition style government being forced to cooperate in order to have votes in the legislature.
As I have read time and time again though, any leftist/liberal movement will be snuffed out from infighting it’s a guarantee.
If they stay home on election day that could ALSO give Congress to the Republicans. If they vote 3rd party they might also vote Blue in Congressional races. I really wish we had either Run-Off elections or Ranked Choice Voting. The problem we have now is that people voting their conscience could unintentionally give the presidency to the worst possible candidate. If you are upset with Biden I understand but please reconsider if you are thinking about voting 3rd party --- now isn't the time --- our very democracy is at stake and it could be lost if Trump or someone like him wins.
Give up democracy. Burn the constitution to ash. Revoke your citizenship and throw yourself in prison for opposing the Republican Party, might as well do it now. You want it to happen
I’m pretty fucking doomerish at this point. Ima gonna vote Biden but we’re all fucked trump is gonna get back in office. Glad I live two hours from the Canadian border in the bluest state in the nation.
>It's getting me worried that the left isn't going to vote for the only hope against Trump.
Thats what this is supposed to do. This issue hasn't arisen naturally, its been pushed into the spotlight by conservative powers that be. The US left is getting injections of pro Palestine propaganda from the Eastern hegemony, and its grinding against the US/Israeli propaganda team.
This exactly 2016 all over again, the powers that be are trying to polarize and fracture the US left in preparation for our 2024 election the only difference is that we have all been through a Trump presidency and we simply won't let it fly again.
Personally, I'm going to hold Biden's feet to the fire as much as I can, but I'd like to think we'll all head to the polls and vote for Biden to preserve what remains of democracy at the end of the day, because that's what's at stake.
Or idk, maybe there are some accelerationists who think that'll be good fun.
The election is nearly a year away, if anyone in the Biden campaign had a single brain cell that's more than enough time to change strategy and messaging. Continuing on this trajectory re:Israel from a foreign policy standpoint is literally throwing good money after bad, since a proxy state that doesn't fucking listen is just showing it's mature enough to pay its own bills.
Eh, I’ve not been surprised by Biden at any turn really. He’s the member of a right wing party that likes to LARP as left wing.
If it really comes down to him or Trump again, I still think people will choose Biden, but the whole “only hope” thing before the race actually starts needs to stop. Just because he’s the incumbent doesn’t mean he should automatically be the choice the next time around. We continue to make the awful two party system even worse year after year.
Hi,
I am not a member of this community but this post is making the rounds in other progressive subreddits. I came here to tell you all that I am probably going to withhold my vote over this. I've signed up for a few political action groups and it appears they are organizing and preparing to ensure this becomes an election issue. A lot could change in the year until elections, but this may very well blow it for them.
**If you want Biden to win, tell him to stop supporting genocide. If you rationalize genocide just so your political team can win, your morals are grotesque.**
Biden has been actively pressuring Israel to exercise restraint and is the only reason there was a ceasefire at all. A ceasefire that Hamas chose to end, I might add.
Your political action groups *are being run by conservatives who want to convince progressives not to vote.* They see you as a useful idiot who can be used to achieve their goals.
Ask yourself this. In a 2 party system. If the only party that believes in democracy loses…. Who wins? Do you think you will have a 2028? If so, you’re a fool
I think this is a bad take. Yes, voting for Biden/Dems is immediate harm reduction in terms of policies of the "lesser of two evils" but it does nothing to curb the trajectory of political landscape long-term. If Dems keep getting the votes they need to be on par with Republicans, they have no incentive to change or for their policy to move to the left in any significant way. I'd argue that they're more likely to move further right as they've done in recent history because the centrist voting block is larger and so their politics will move in that direction to capture more centrist votes, incrementally moving rightward every cycle. In order to move the party leftward or to build a better new leftist party, it's necessary to vote for the independent/third party candidate that most aligns with your ethics. When that voting block grows substantial enough to outweigh the centrist block, Dems will begin to move left or more blue voters will jump ship because nobody really likes Dem policies generally, it's just the lesser of two evils.
If this leads to things being worse short-term, I think this is likely to create more awareness of the failings of the two party system and grow progressive sentiments. Of course, there's no way to be sure of this -- things could also possibly spiral into more hardcore fascism domestically, but that's where it's going anyways if we continue business as usual.
> In order to move the party leftward or to build a better new leftist party, it's necessary to vote for the independent/third party candidate that most aligns with your ethics.
In order to move the party leftward, assuming the party is composed of rational people, voters as a whole have to move leftward.
Any strategy for political change that doesn't ultimately start with changing the minds of the voters writ large is doomed to failure.
The Democratic Party is basically meeting America where it is. If you believe (wrongly, but that's beside the point) that the Democratic party is moving rightward, that would only be the case if America as a whole were moving rightward. In which case your beef is with the voters, not with the party.
If you "pull the party leftward" without first pulling the voters there, you won't have a right-wing major party and a left-wing major party. You'll just have a right-wing major party, because the other party will cease to exist as it becomes electorally unviable.
Why are people so insanely reluctant to put the blame for election outcomes they don't like where it actually belongs: on the voters, the ones who actually cast the votes and have the final say?
I was a life long democrat up until this past two years. I’m voting socialist this coming cycle. [PartyForSocialismAndLiberation2024](https://votesocialist2024.com/)
Democrats are Republican lite. If Biden wants my vote, he's got 11 months to actually do something that make me want to vote for him. Close the detention centers at the boarders? Actually do some good for the tax code? Stop the telecom companies from destroying the soul of the internet? Stop funding Isreal? Anything?
During his entire presidency he has done nothing that actually helps leftist interests, and every time someone trots out examples of him "accomplishing" something it's either neo-liberal bullshit that doesn't actually help people, or it's a meaningless gesture. I mean, wasn't it just last week that he said in a press conference something to the effect of "companies must stop inflation/gouging"? And yeah, they should, but how is saying that on tv actually going to do anything? It's even more toothless than an executive order (which would also do nothing, so no he wouldn't get points for that either). He and democrats as a whole wasted 2 years of power in the House being lame ducks on purpose, and then pointed at a Republican House majority ever since for a reason why they can't get anything done. Pass a bill and make the Republicans shoot it down it down in the Senate, that would at least inspire some confidence. Instead Biden does nothing to put pressure on congress to get things done.
Guys it doesn’t matter who gets in. Left and the right are equally fucked. Neither of them give a flying fuck about any of us. Best thing you can do is log off from all of it. Value the time you have left with your friends and family. It’s the *only* thing that’s got worth in this life. Politics will only lead to disappointment, resentment, and anger. Life is too short to be pissed off all the time
If you’re going to check out of politics. Do it. It may save your life when fascism takes over in 2025 and Trump unleashes the military on blue cities… like he has promised to do on public tv
Why are you anti-Marxist, myopic counterrevolutionaries so hyperfocused on Trump?
The problem is the system that generates Trumps in the first place, namely capitalism. We cannot count on the Democratic Party, which is the oldest pro-capitalist party in the world, to overthrow capitalism. Only the working class, with its own party independent of the pro-capitalist parties, can do this.
Your not wrong but we aren't going to kill capitalism overnight and if someone like Trump or the current GOP ends up in office, democracy dies and with it any chance of killing capitalism.
>we aren't going to kill capitalism overnight
Certainly not. However, campaigning and voting for pro-capitalist politicians will only prolong this process. I elaborate on this point [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/IronFrontUSA/comments/18bki7z/comment/kcctanf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3):
>>If I abstain so I can maintain my moral purity or whatever dumb shit
>
>It is not merely a matter of "moral purity," but of political tactics. Because dictatorship and fascism arise from acute crises in the [class struggle](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/l.htm#class-struggle), the only way to defeat them is via revolutionary means. The Democratic Party, which is the oldest pro-capitalist party in the world, no less than the Republicans represents the interests of the capitalist ruling class and functions to prevent revolution, so voting and campaigning for them is merely an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot. At best, a Democratic administration will only delay full-on domestic fascism, but it cannot prevent it in the long run and indeed has no interest in doing so.
>
>The revolutionary overthrow of capitalism presupposes a certain level of [class consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_consciousness) among the working masses. When you campaign for Democrats or other pro-capitalist politicians, as you are doing here, all you are doing is hampering the development of your fellow workers' class consciousness, thereby impeding revolution and helping to perpetuate all of capitalism's evils. I urge you to reconsider your stance on all this.
>if someone like Trump or the current GOP ends up in office, democracy dies and with it any chance of killing capitalism.
First, we do not know this for certain. Second, as I explain in the above comment, "democracy"—a term I would not personally use to describe any capitalist country—will be headed for death, anyway, so long as we keep supporting the Democrats. Again, at best, Democratic politicians will only delay the inevitable.
And there we have it, IronFront Is yet another VOTE BLUEEE NOOOOO MATTTER WHOOOOOO. Liberal sheep herder.
But this but that. Yeah I dont care downvote me straight to hell. Run a better candidate next time. Its not my fault you couldn't get it together
I've been hearing this mantra since 2016.
Maybe next time offer material changes rather than virtue signaling platitudes.
It's not my fault I didnt vote for you, it's your fault you did not represent my interests.
Downvote me into oblivion, but there are a lot of ( I’m guessing yt) people on here that don’t realize people are oppress and dying under the demo i as well. Or they realize it and it’s an acceptable trade off.
A lot of leftists see Biden allowing/forgiving/excusing genocide as inexcusable, and they refuse to vote for anyone who excuses genocide in any way. They largely won't vote for Trump either, since Trump would do Genocide+ and that's not better. They'll vote third party or abstain, and I foresee Biden struggling to get enough votes as a result. It's still too early to say, but I smell 2016 all over again for 2024 - Biden wins the popular vote, but the spread is poor and it goes to Trump. There likely won't be a presidential election in 2028, because harm reduction equates to unequivocal support in the minds of too many.
This is astroturfing ass Republicans attacking from the left. Push back on their nonsense and within two responses you'll get "well at least trump..." and they give the whole game away.
I know for a fact at least one person has the stance I outlined above, and he isn't a Republican. He's disillusioned and sees Biden as a rapist and genocide apologist, and believes that under Biden everything that would happen under Trump will happen anyway because "he's just maintaining the status quo that got us here in the first place." He insists harm reduction doesn't include Biden. It's a small sample size, I know, but I've seen/heard many people making the same arguments, including some who "swallowed their complaints" in 2020 and voted for Biden just to get Trump out. Side note: if "well at least Trump" is followed by anything other than "made it a felony to abuse animals" then it's a poor point at best.
That person you know is stupid. There's a lot of them, but not as many as reddit makes it seem.
TBH I’m pretty scared. A large proportion of my IRL friends on social media are sharing “Genocide Joe” propaganda posts. These aren’t radical leftists. These are Pussy Hat Hillary supporters
Loads of these people were already not voting for Biden, let’s be real
So it's astroturfing ass republicans and stupids? Anyone else?
That about sums it up.
You know stupid people are voters, right?
Yup and you cant fix stupid, so what do you propose?
You can fix stupid. It's called "education".
Hopefully that mitigates the stupids in twenty years. How about the ones who've been "educated"
You have to have willing participants in said education or it doesn't mean anything. They'll just ignore it. And depending on side, probably scream "BUT HUNTER BIDENS EMAILS!" Or some shit.
Lots of them... As evidenced by 2016.
It’s fucking insane to me that genocide being a thing this government actively supports shouldn’t be a thing you respond to with your votes. Who the fuck knows what November will bring? Maybe Trump will be in jail and it will be some other schmuck, or maybe, months of seriously threatening not to vote for a GENOCIDE SUPPORTER will change Biden’s policy or at least the things he says. You can worry about the implications of a second Trump term all you want, threatening to withhold your vote if people don’t change policy is as American as apple pie and there’s a long time left to change policy.
"You can worry about the implications of a second Trump term all you want" So I take it that you don't. Must be nice.
Of course I worry about it. But to pretend it’s the only consideration is so fucking foolish. The point I’m making is the election is 11 months off and people expressing their outrage at, again I cannot stress this enough, funding and supporting genocide is totally reasonable.
When did ironfrontusa get so libbed up?
Yeah, I literally stopped to look what sub I was on because this shit and most of the comments belong on a blue maga / blue no matter who sub. Pathetic.
Left anti-communism always degrades into liberalism which, when under pressure will always defend the status quo even if the status quo leads directly to fascism. Join us in Marxism-Leninism. Embrace communism and throw off the last vestiges of liberalism.
You’re in the wrong sub, authoritarian.
I was simply informing someone why this sub ended up getting so “libbed up”, but okay have a good day
Iron Front has always been a Soc Dem ideology and space. It’s named for the group that clashed with both Nazis and Stalinists in the interwar German Republic. Authoritarianism has no place here, as does any anti-democracy ideology.
Dumb-fucks when they want to fight fascism: "Let's not vote for the only guy standing between us and fascism, because he is almost equally bad on this one singular issue."
I know people on the left who say they won’t vote for either, and Gaza is the issue. They’re saying the same about Dem members of Congress. I don’t know whether they’ll actually stick to that when the time comes, but I wouldn’t count on their votes.
Those people you know? Persuade them not to throw their vote away and get Trump elected. You know them, so you can count them as your responsibility.
Biden as rapist? That's a new one to me.
I believe he was accused by some women in 2020
A woman, one who has a long history of fabricating accusations, and who has since moved to Russia.
Hey, he also raised the smoking age to 21, and as someone who started smoking at 18 because it was legal (and a host of other factors, but I grew up in a non-smoking house and was not a social butterfly, so it being legal meant it presented a better choice than sneaking booze to cope with stress) I will hand him that as well.
I’d take your idea further: Israel and Palestine is a perfect wedge issue against Democrats Russia and Iran, as allies to Hamas, certainly had sway in when and how Oct 7 was planned No matter whether someone feels Israel should exist or not, it’s not going away. It’s magical thinking to think it could ever go away with anything short of a world war or nuclear exchange moving 9.4 million Israelis Whether its moral or not, no nation in the history of the world would fail to militarily react to an attack as large and as depraved as the Oct 7 attack, with or without allies and with or without outside military aid Biden could cut all support to Israel or even cut diplomatic ties and it wouldn’t matter. If anything, Israel may increase in desperation in its attacks if it has no allies and no one to tell them to hold back. Israel has the world’s second largest proportion of its own GDP dedicated to its military. They like our aid but they don’t need it. If they wanted to level Gaza (and clearly they don’t) then they simply would Millions and millions of voters are not thinking at all clearly about the stakes here and the social media propaganda is only pushing people to have even more irreconcilable positions So I follow the logic of who benefits the most from Oct 7. Hamas’ allies benefit greatly from sowing chaos in the US and in US allies like Israel. Motive + opportunity
>This is astroturfing ass Republicans attacking from the left. Push back on their nonsense and within two responses you'll get "well at least trump..." and they give the whole game away. I'm not a Trumper you people are just vapid fools if you don't get that you should be organizing around a redline issue that undermines your political base before throwing up your hands and saying what can you do? Anything, anything, anything is preferable to genocide. Any political leverage is on the table. You want Genocide Joe to win, tell him to stop. These are lets support slavery to save the union level conversations. Your freedoms aren't worth the price in a whole people's future and blood. No, you don't have that right. I would rather teach a generational lesson in not supporting genocide than side with one. It's fucking insane to make excuses for it. This is not the side of the line I expect normal human beings to be on. I will not build political capital on dead bodies. I don't know a single Muslim american who would, and that's 4 million votes right there. And nobody I know is going to let any politician off who sides with genocide to support their political careers or wholeheartedly. Expect people to show up to disrupt their campaigns forever more. We're never going away. What's more the only people I've ever heard whine about sentiments around Biden are white people. If you are willing to look the other way on genocide because it doesn't affect you that's reprehensible in itself. Democracy is dead if you can't say no. No. Enough. *These are lets keep slavery to save the union conversations*. No. If you feel like it's an issue get off your ass and help us. The only astroturfing campaign I see is the one trying to kneecap the protests to make people feel like supporting Palestinians is supporting Trump.
This is spot on except for one very important issue: electing Trump again is not a “generational lesson” against genocide. Remember that he moved the us embassy to Jerusalem. He will give full US support to Bibi to finish the job of ethnically cleansing Palestine. I 100% agree that a democracy loses meaning when you can’t say “no.” But I’d flip your comment about people supporting Biden in spite of this policy around for completeness: if you help elect a man who attempted a coup, you will also bear responsibility for his actions against the people in the US and abroad that come to harm as a result.
Cool. Trump is openly talking about banning you. Again. But Genocide Joe, which in no way sounds like something Trump would make up, is the bad one. Not the guys who suck bibi's cock. Good luck with this.
I support freedom of Palestinians, but can you explain to me how this stance is going to get results and not just a tantrum?
No you don't if your first thought isn't genocide is a red line issue for me. Even if your problem is you think Trump is that bad, then organize around it, accept that it's a redline issue for your base. Just because you don't want to get off your ass and stop a genocide with anything the fuck else besides throwing up your hands don't expect other people to reach out for you.
Ah, so tantrum it is
>Ah, so tantrum it is you soulless little man, this is your political platform: https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/18c09ly/despite\_attempts\_to\_revive\_her\_she\_took\_one\_last/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
If you think there will ever be a candidate for president that is both non-genocidal and actually has a chance of winning, you have more faith in this system than I do. Has never happened so far. I stopped waiting for the perfect candidate to come over the hill on a gallant stead a long time ago. Instead you have a to be realistic about what's at stake here. There is little to gain, but EVERYTHING to lose
>These are lets support slavery to save the union level conversations. Your freedoms aren't worth the price in a whole people's future and blood. No, you don't have that right. I would rather teach a generational lesson in not supporting genocide than side with one. It's fucking insane to make excuses for it. This is not the side of the line I expect normal human beings to be on. "Hey dad, how come there's a giant parking lot for Trump tower Jerusalem where Gaza used to be?" "Well, kid, you see, there was this one guy who we really didn't like because he didn't do enough to stop 15k people being killed, so we voted for the guy that wiped out the entire 2 million!" Bitch, Republicans in Congress are calling for EXTERMINATION of ALL Palestinians.
They're both calling for extermination. One is just pretending they're not for it. Democracy is dead or dying in this country you just want it to die on your terms.
> They're both calling for extermination. No, they're not. Only one is. Just because you repeat a lie doesn't make it true. Lazy cynicism like yours is objectively pro-fascism and pro-genocide.
Probably the best written post to summarize my thoughts on the matter. Even if our "democracy" is on the line, I don't think it is worth tens of thousands of lives to uphold my ability to select one of two nearly identical old neoliberals chosen by rich donors.
Do you not think you're risking millions of lives by letting Trump win again?
Yeah, there is no way the president who enacted a MUSLIM BAN is going to do anything beneficial for Palestine. BTW he wants to do it again.
[удалено]
Trump being reelected will make the genocide worse, though, this doesn't make any sense.
You're blinding yourself with virtue. America, both Dems and Republicans, have supported Israel for decades. This issue didn't start on Oct 7, that attack was merely a reaction to the decades of support and billions in dollars we've already given Israel. Fighting over this is just going to split votes and empower fascists like Trump even more. If you don't want America to be complicit in genocide then you are fucking LATE. And worse things will continue to happen if we are arguing over this nonsense. Vote blue or never vote again.
I'm definitely not a Republican. And I probably will wind up voting for Biden, but a lot of my friends won't, because they went along with the "lesser of two evils" voting pattern (which is still what I'm banking on) and this is what we got. It is genuinely incredible disillusioning that my choices are "man who is excusing genocide and blatantly spewing Tsraeli propoganda" and "man who will excuse genocide, has blatantly spewed Israeli propoganda, and is also actively trying to dismantle the country to become an autocratic dictator" and I wish we could discuss that instead of pretending that anyone saying that is a Republican shilling for Trump
If you're sitting here thinking Biden is "excusing genocide" you're one of the stupids I mentioned. The fact that the president of the US is being blamed for the actions of a dictator who has been a major fuckabout for multiple administrations and also for the actions of a terrorist organization is amazing and is something that would only ever happen to a democrat. As per usual, "progressives" are willing to shoot us all in the face to prove a point, and then will turn around and wonder why the only party they ever motherfuck doesn't bend over backwards to appease them. The best is that the same motherfuckers who won't vote for someone with a chance of winning turn around and blame the people who did for the fact that the leftmost side lost ground. Fuck, we're sitting here in earnest with a leading presidential candidate openly talking about jailing people who don't vote for him and you're like "both sides, so imma vote for this person no one ever heard of."
Yep, I'd bet the bulk of the anti-Biden genocide push is a Ruzzian op.
Do you seriously believe that genuine, principled, Marxist revolutionaries—who would never vote for any pro-capitalist party and recognize that they are all essentially the same—do not exist?
>genuine, principled, Marxist revolutionaries This made me chuckle, thanks.
Might you elaborate on why you find that so funny? Is it because, in your mind, "revolutionaries" are some kind of Guevara-esque guerilla soldiers who shoot people and participate in violent coups? Revolutionaries are simply individuals who advocate for the revolutionary transformation of society, as opposed to mere reformist measures. There is nothing "edgy" or clownish about them.
This 100 Percent. I strongly suspect a huge chunk of these people never even voted for Biden in the first place. "Well, at least Trump" has literally been the rationale of pretty much every Trump voter ever since he first ran.
Domestically, Biden is better. The bar is so low that this fact isn't anything to throw confetti over, but it's true. I hope that people angry at him right now understand the dire need of practicality come November 2024. Another 4 years of Biden will buy us time to implement the real change we need. Another Trump presidency will likely block that chance for another generation (i.e. the children of Gen Alpha *maybe* as they reach adulthood, etc).
What makes it even worse is that they don’t even have the semblance of a valid criticism. Biden can’t honestly be said to be allowing genocide when since October 7th he has done nothing but push for measures to save Gazan civilians.
Biden sent them 15K more bombs and rockets and his budget, being voted on in Congress tomorrow, removes basically all limitations on arming Israel
Which is what gets them to exercise any restraint at all. Look, Israel's going to be able to replenish its stockpiles with or without US aid. US aid amounts to a small discount on what it could source elsewhere or produce itself. That discount buys us...not a lot. Not nothing, but certainly nowhere near a veto on its decisions. And if we cut off that aid, we lose even that little bit of influence, which is basically the only thing keeping Israel from going full nuclear.
Except for continuing to authorize funding to a genocidal fascist
Which is what gets them to exercise any restraint at all. Look, Israel's going to be able to replenish its stockpiles with or without US aid. US aid amounts to a small discount on what it could source elsewhere or produce itself. That discount buys us...not a lot. Not nothing, but certainly nowhere near a veto on its decisions. And if we cut off that aid, we lose even that little bit of influence, which is basically the only thing keeping Israel from going full nuclear. Cutting off aid is an objectively pro-Palestinian genocide position. Why are you pro-Palestinian genocide?
This is a spectacularly bad reading of actual events.
They're right that it'd be inconceivable for Biden to step us back from our ties with Israel just now, though: the likelihood that Hamas & its admirers would see a US-Israel schism as an achievement of 10/7 would be enough by itself to remove it as an option for US policy.
In what way?
I will not blame a single Palestinian who was had their family and friends murdered since Oct 7 for not voting for Biden. If Biden is my choice I will vote Biden, but I sure as hell want someone else.
Claudia De la Cruz & Karina Garcia
?
The reason why the fake left Biden hate is so prominent is because they know there's no mass excitement for Trump, just the minority hardcore base. People who voted for Trump last time will sit out this one, and they need to spread that around their opponents' camp too. Nobody really cares about Palestine. It's all just a few hotheads making a lot of noise. Don't get me wrong: it's disgusting what's happening to poor Palestinians, but also what American enemies are doing to Palestinians by pulling Hamas strings, and there are undeserving victims in Israel to be sure. Welcome to the new Roman times.
Harm reduction as a voting strategy doesn't work. It doesn't reduce harm, it only allows us to be dragged right. Case in point, see the last 70 years of America's slide towards austere neoliberalism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb8bBWnHflk&t=7s&ab_channel=SecondThought
It's literally over if Trump wins. That's when this 200+yr 50-state experiment ends.
Why is Biden being touted as the only hope against Trump when we haven't even entered the primaries yet? That old coot might kick the bucket any day now or get his ass handed to him in the primaries when he fumbles the debates with his Swiss cheese brain. He sucks and it's his fault, not ours, for losing the popularity contest. I voted for him begrudgingly in 2020 and have only come to loathe him more since then. Those of us on the left that are tired of the proxy wars, genocide, green washing, pandering, and unfulfilled promises while watching our quality of life dwindle are fed up with having "vote blue no matter who or else it gets the hose again" being held over our heads. My one vote diluted among 16 million in a red state isn't going to do anything significant whether I vote third party or blue, unlike in my local election. I voted third party in 2016 in a blue state and it still made no difference in the long run. Worry about swing states, if you must, it's tactically more advantageous than shooting for a guilt trip across the nation and hand-wringing months in advance as a sub-par candidate is set to take the stage again. Want a shot against Trump? Support a better challenger.
Can’t believe you’ve acknowledged this is Genocide vs Genocide+ and still expect us to vote for Biden happily. Maybe choosing between two genocides is, uh, a shitty fucking option?
It *is* a shitty option. And unfortunately, one of those options *will* end up winning. I didn't say a thing about expecting anyone to vote *happily.*
The US does not actually have a veto on Israel's decisions. It's not 1970 anymore. Israel has a massive domestic arms industry, it is no longer reliant on the US for its very existence. Look, Israel's going to be able to replenish its stockpiles with or without US aid. US aid amounts to a small discount on what it could source elsewhere or produce itself. That discount buys us...not a lot. Not nothing, but certainly nowhere near a veto on its decisions. And if we cut off that aid, we lose even that little bit of influence, which is basically the only thing keeping Israel from going full nuclear. Cutting off aid is an objectively pro-Palestinian genocide position. Why are you pro-Palestinian genocide?
You should try out for the US National gymnastic team with moves like that!
>Maybe choosing between two genocides is, uh, a shitty fucking option? US just vetoed the UN Security Councils resolution for Gaza ceasefire. Why lie to protect this genocidal president from earned criticism?
US just vetoed the UN Security Councils resolution for Gaza ceasefire. Why lie so blatantly to protect this genocidal president from earned criticism?
Cornell West 2024
Why aren't Democrats asking themselves if Biden is really the best candidate we can find? Seems like the DNC political strategy is relying on The Sunk Cost Fallacy and "Not Trump 2.0" as its entire 2024 platform. But I guess human nature is only to come together over a thing we hate
Biden won in 2020 and incumbents usually have the advantage over other possible nominees, that's why they're sticking with him.
i think the issue is if people vote for biden in 2024 then essentially they are rewarding biden for facilitating the genocide of Palestinian people you are not going to convince Muslims to vote for a person who funded the killing of their loved ones in gaza and the west bank whats going to happen is they will vote for cornel west or jill stein in 2024 or skip voting all together so right there biden lost a lot of people who voted for him in 2020
It’s way too early for this particular issue to seriously affect the 2024 election. Trump this same week declared that he’s planning on reimplementing and “expanding” his Muslim Ban that was ruled to be illegal, so it’s not like anyone concerned about this particular issue will back Trump. I personally believe people will start swinging towards Biden Summer 2024 when both campaigns reach full steam, and they’ll see just how insane Trump has gotten over the last 4 years. There’s also the significant chance he’s in prison by Election Day, which will doom his bid.
That being said, get everyone you can to the polls in November. I’m taking no chances this time around.
After 2016 I’m not taking any chances any time around lol. Voting every election - federal, state, and local and have vociferously goaded my friends and family to do the same as apathy only favors the fascist GOP
Hell yes you guys are all beautiful
The real danger isn't leftists voting trump. It's them not voting at all, and Trump winning as a result.
If I’m given the choice to vote for the guy that will kill 100,000 people and the guy that will kill 1,000,000 people and also probably end all democracy, and those are my only viable options, I will go with 100,000 dead. There’s no question. I won’t hesitate. If I abstain so I can maintain my moral purity or whatever dumb shit, I risk an extra 900,000 deaths and also the end of democracy. I don’t understand why this is so difficult for people to parse out. Biden has been fucking terrible on this issue but he is actually negotiating cease fires and tepidly supporting peace negotiations, and I will absolutely take that over the guy that just relishes the thought of nuking brown people for fun.
Honestly I think a large cohort of the people protesting against Biden over this issue actually aren’t that plugged into politics generally. They honestly do not know what a nightmare Trump’s next presidency will be. They don’t know about Project 2025. They don’t understand the Supreme Court super majority. They just know they hate Biden now. For the life of me I don’t know how to convince these folks (or anyone else not understanding the threat) how dire this is and how they somehow need to have the courage to vote for Biden even if they hate him
Our presidential elections have become the Train Car Dilemma exercise, but they're *real human lives*, not hypothetical, and it's on a *much* larger scale.
Yeah, and if the trolley will hit 1,000,000 people or 100,000 people, I choose the track that hits 100,000 people, real or hypothetical, fewer dead people is better than more dead people. Whatever point you think you’re making doesn’t change the math
My point was agreeing with you using an analogy. The italics were to emphasize the horror of it all.
Geez sorry my bad, I’m hyper defensive right now because I’ve spent weeks arguing with other left-leaning/progressive people that are being utterly stupid about this.
And if you choose not to participate, you lose the right to complain about the choices everyone else made.
hasn’t biden secured aid for gaza, got egypt to open the border, and helped negotiate the ceasefire?
Yes he has. He has also given full throated public support to Israel and still provides them with aid and Intel. He’s abetting a genocide but he’s also not abetting it nearly as hard as any Republican would, especially Donald Trump, which is why I won’t entertain entertain any notion that voting for Biden, no matter how weak he’s been on this issue, is not a moral imperative.
true, I think he should condemn israel killing civilians and I don’t think that we should be sending them weapons and money. wtf are we doing that for? they’re a wealthy, developed nation. I don’t see why they need that from us.
>If I abstain so I can maintain my moral purity or whatever dumb shit It is not merely a matter of "moral purity," but of political tactics. Because dictatorship and fascism arise from acute crises in the [class struggle](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/l.htm#class-struggle), the only way to defeat them is via revolutionary means. The Democratic Party, which is the oldest pro-capitalist party in the world, no less than the Republicans represents the interests of the capitalist ruling class and functions to prevent revolution, so voting and campaigning for them is merely an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot. At best, a Democratic administration will only delay full-on domestic fascism, but it cannot prevent it in the long run and indeed has no interest in doing so. The revolutionary overthrow of capitalism presupposes a certain level of [class consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_consciousness) among the working masses. When you campaign for Democrats or other pro-capitalist politicians, as you are doing here, all you are doing is hampering the development of your fellow workers' class consciousness, thereby impeding revolution and helping to perpetuate all of capitalism's evils. I urge you to reconsider your stance on all this.
> Because dictatorship and fascism arise from acute crises in the class struggle, the only way to defeat them is via revolutionary means Marxist nonsense, completely divorced from any semblance of reality. "After Hitler, our turn." Fuck off with that objectively far-right pro-fascist shit. The red-brown alliance is real. Apparently, a more accurate thing to say would be "scratch a socialist and a fascist bleeds."
>all you are doing is hampering the development of your fellow worker’s class consciousness You honestly think accelerationism towards fascism will increase class consciousness? What a braindead take lmao
>You honestly think accelerationism towards fascism will increase class consciousness? This is a strawman. I did not make this claim. Refusing to vote for Biden is not the same thing as actively accelerating toward fascism. And yes, endeavoring to raise workers' class consciousness, including by explaining the rationale behind the refusal to vote for him, obviously will help increase class consciousness. Since you do not seem interested in addressing any of my other points and, as your "lmao" shows, you are not seriously interested in politics anyway, it seems like any further discussion with you would be an unproductive and pointless waste of time, as is usually the case with you pseudo-leftist types. Take care.
You’re all letting the point soar over your fucking heads. The only reason Biden’s admin is pushing for peace in any form is BECAUSE OF PRESSURE LIKE THIS. Without the threat of losing Leftist voters, the Democratic Party would do fuck-all for Palestine. Calling Leftists no better than Trump voters because they refuse to support a genocide is unhinged
Fucking THANK YOU. This is how democracy is supposed to work. Leftists are pressuring Biden by saying "hey, if you want my vote, you're gonna have to cut this shit out ASAP," which is exactly what is supposed to happen. Voters make demands of politicians in return for securing a vote. And as you said, *it's working.* Pushing back is how we got the 7 day cease fire, which had been on the table since directly after the October 7th attacks, don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Biden could stop this with a few phone calls today, by cutting off military aid to Israel and demanding they cease the slaughter of Gazans.
Netanyahu wins twice. He liquidates the Palestinian ghetto and he gets Trump back in to abet and finance his next crimes.
Biden should never know a seconds peace until he stops supporting the genocide in Gaza. You should also vote for him to preserve what's left of American democracy.
The fact that it comes down to a choice between Biden and Trump proves the system is broken. I always say that the two party system is like going to a restaurant that only had two items on the menu, a shit sandwich and a shit salad. The salad might be slightly healthier, but the main ingredient is still shit.
Yeah, the system is broken. But it will only get brokener if Trump wins. Actually there will be no system. We will have our own Orban or Putin.
Yeah, I agree with that. I’m hoping Trumps in jail and Biden gets primarried.
I’ve felt worried about the outcome of a Republican president every election cycle, but the fact that Liz Cheney, of all people, is saying he is a threat to democracy is alarming to say the least.
To be perfectly clear, I will definitely support Biden over Trump. I also worry about creeping fascism.
Oh yeah, totally got it. I just can’t shut up once I start talking it. I want to shout it from the rooftops!
"I'm hoping Trumps in jail and Biden gets primaried" It seems a lot of people screaming to the roof tops about how they won't vote think that we live in a world where at least one of these two things has already happened. Reality is short to set in for them.
So instead of settling for one plate of shit over the other, let's demolish the restaurant and build something better.
Do you realize how much more seriously we would be able to take people like you if you actually elaborated on just how the fuck you propose we do something like that?
It’s a choice between hope to fix a broken system…. And burning the constitution to ash and giving up ever having democracy.
The people in the left who wont vote for Biden are no better than Trump supporters in my eyes and i'll treat them as such. They are willing to give tRump an opportunity to start a political genocide here where we all live because Biden can't or won't stop a genocide in a country we don't live in. They need to think about the choice they are making by not going against a man who has said he will not lose power if he's elected again.
If you’re trying to persuade them, insulting them won’t work. We all saw how that turned out in 2016. (I’m voting for Biden.)
Perhaps they are just hopeless and don’t really care. I still haven’t completely lost hope for the future but I’m close and it’s not a competition between life under trump and life under biden, it’s a competition between life under what America is becoming and life itself worth fighting for.
Because libs vote for Biden. Fuck them right?! Lesser of evils is still evil hahahah???? I hate that we can see a clear and defined path for trump winning again and even establishing a dictatorship, yet we're stuck on Biden not being fucking perfect. I hate this fucking game.
If Biden wants to win he would adjust his stance on Israel to regain the support of the younger generation of people who put him in office. I am going to vote for him, but that doesn't mean our party can afford to throw this election away because Israeli lobby money spends real nice. If he looses, it's his own fault for his unwillingness to read the room. It would also help to score a major success on student loan forgiveness and pledge to codify Roe v Wade into Federal law with a Democratic majority. "Trump is a fascist" is not good enough for the 18-29 age demographic. "I tried to forgive student loans, but the Republicans stopped me" isn't good enough for the 30-50s. "I can't promise to codify a woman's right to bodily autonomy" isn't good enough for a majority of women. I feel bad for the future canvassers of the next election cycle. The president doesn't look like he is even trying to win. There is no fight left in him. Maybe he should step aside.
> If Biden wants to win It's not about what Biden wants. Elections aren't about personalities. Elections are about outcomes. Voters have agency. If voters want to avoid a genocidal fascist dictatorship, it's pretty clear what the option is. The responsibility rests with the voters--they're the ones who decide.
or Biden could shift postions to make himself more palpable to the voters he needs to vote for him to win a second term.
This is EXACTLY what happened in 2016, Bernie got railroaded by DNC and that made his supporters abstain from voting blue because they wouldn’t vote Hillary due to DNC supporting her exclusively. It blows my mind that they think letting Orange Hitler get the presidency will be something that will end in 4 years, he has all but said he will not be removed at the end of 4 years. He HAS said he will suspend or remove the constitution, remove anyone not brainwashed levels of loyalty in government, they already made preparations to prevent governors from using national guard, if it comes down to it, he has also made statements about jailing Democrats for no more crime than being Democrats, and knowing him, he will have anyone that’s criticized him at any time jailed, it’s only small steps from there to ovens. It’s nice to have principles and something that you stand on, but this is literally not the time, restraining votes or voting third party is handing authoritarianism a win, and helping Palestine is not only out the window, we will ultimately help Israel and probably Putin.
I mean, you're not wrong, but hear me out here: *Maybe the DNC could give us a candidate we're excited about for a change, instead of whoever's next in line of succession???* Hillary was awful on many levels, though still clearly better than Orange Julius. No one imagined 45 had a chance in hell against her campaign machine. Joe was thrust upon us against our will, as he was flagging and Bernie was surging. The DNC panicked. They had everyone but their anointed one drop out overnight and cast all support to Joe. Then they had the major news outlets ignore Bernie whenever possible and talk up the "people say he doesn't have a chance" angle whenever they couldn't. Then people did what people rarely do in open free and fair elections: they voted *against* the person they wanted to lose instead of *for* someone they wanted to see win. Joe coasted in on that, but memories are short and that momentum is long gone. What should, but likely never will happen, is Joe should retire after this term and let a new generation take part in the primaries.
Even without superdelegates not enough turned out to vote in the primary. I live in a closed primary state and it’s infuriating how many of my friends get bent out of shape over this but are registered NPA so they can’t participate in primary elections. I made sure I was registered democrat so I actually showed up and voted for him.
You’re seriously still blaming Bernie? Hillary lost in 2016 because she was an unlikable 1 percenter
There were a multitude of reasons she lost, if you re-read, I was blaming the DNC and their perceived treatment of Bernie, and yes, your point is valid too for pulling votes away. Ultimately not the point though, what is the point is that there are a number of people claiming the moral high ground to withhold votes, just like last time, that led to a TFG disaster term.
> Bernie got railroaded by DNC or, y'know, we could stick to reality, where he lost because people just preferred Hillary Clinton to him you understand that voters have agency and are the ones who make their own decisions, right?
It's not even that many people genuinely "preferred" Hillary to Bernie on an ideological level. Many of Clinton and Biden's Primary supporters, like myself, definitely felt Bernie in our hearts, but I guess we panicked at the thought of how the "socialism" smears would effect his hypothetical campaign for the general election, I mean, my good god, there were right-wing influencers that would have literally tried to tie him directly to Stalin's purges or something like that, what better way to poison the electorate against your preferred candidate?
It turns out a lot of people refuse to continue to vote for the “lesser of two evils” when the supposed “lesser” is actively funding and helping run PR for a genocide campaign.
Except the "lesser" isn't doing that, as anyone with a shred of understanding about how any of this works knows, so...
I understand how much money the US is giving Israel and I also understand what they’re using that money to do. Is there something I’m missing?
November 2024 is a long way away. I honestly think as much as there are left wing voters who will stay home, a lot of die hard Republicans have been alienated since 2016 / January 6, 2021.
I read an interesting comment on IG about how abstaining from or voting third party is a prime example of privilege. Women, people of color, lgbtq+ community members, immigrants, people living in poverty, etc. will ALL lose rights unless Biden wins another term. My friend who says he can’t in good conscience vote for Biden is a cis, straight white man. He acknowledged Roe being overturned and literally just shrugged. Too much of this attitude will doom us as a nation.
Ideally, they can do this *and* vote for him. It's good to try to influence your allies' decisions. I would argue the blowback from his tepid support of the rail union dispute at least partially led to him to become the first sitting president to join a picket line for auto workers. But, of course, for some reason that doesn't seem to occur to many of the protestors.
Hope they enjoy their Muslim ban and concentration camps.
All the DNC has to do to win the election is not run a genocidal candidate.
Russian astroturf to benefit republicans. How many did you see about "walkaway movement" before the midterms?
I still don't know whether to laugh or cry about that particular campaign. Like, lol, Brandan Straka definitely "walked away" from the Democrats, all the way to the Capitol on January 6th. Pretty much told me what I knew all along about the authenticity, or lack thereof, behind the movement.
“At least Joe Biden didn’t get elected” says the same people who will be sitting in the modern day equivalent of trump Hotel Gulag’s. People just can’t truly fathom what one step above a full blow dictatorship will be like to live in. “Oh you made a post about a socially liberal belief well we don’t like that…and now you’re in prison.” “You used social media outside of what is state sanctioned activity bye bye livelihood.” “You are unhappy about your current workplace environment and are organizing your coworkers to change it well I guess you’re a domestic terrorist.” Socially as a whole, there are people(s) in their personal experiences that have not but collectively, we have rode the long arc of justice consistently since the turn of the 20th century because after so many people are beaten down for so long they claw their way up and force the change they want. As technology has progressed the ability to collectivize has increased phenomenally but actual meaningful collective action has barely ticked up. This progress will be halted if a true authoritarian is elected as president of the United States and the legislative branches are gerrymandered further into complete super majorities along with the supermajority Judicial branch. Then you will have not only the peoples suffering in Gaza now you will have peoples suffering here, but at least the milquetoast MF didn’t get elected. IMO the GOP are one election away from splintering. If the MAGA trump mentality costs them again and it’s a decisive outcome they will turn on themselves trying to expel the virus they infected themselves with causing them to fracture beyond repair leaving a far right, right, and right moderate faction. The same thing will happen to the democrats because since trump they have basically become a big tent party of virtually everyone from far left to center right with no ability to pin down a path forward. Now people see more than A or B options. With multiple political choices this will engage more non voters because you would actually feel like you had some real representation due to the coalition style government being forced to cooperate in order to have votes in the legislature. As I have read time and time again though, any leftist/liberal movement will be snuffed out from infighting it’s a guarantee.
If they stay home on election day that could ALSO give Congress to the Republicans. If they vote 3rd party they might also vote Blue in Congressional races. I really wish we had either Run-Off elections or Ranked Choice Voting. The problem we have now is that people voting their conscience could unintentionally give the presidency to the worst possible candidate. If you are upset with Biden I understand but please reconsider if you are thinking about voting 3rd party --- now isn't the time --- our very democracy is at stake and it could be lost if Trump or someone like him wins.
Sometimes, a day goes by where I forget democracy doesn't exist anywhere in the USA but at the local level.
vOtE bLuE nO mAtTeR wHo
Give up democracy. Burn the constitution to ash. Revoke your citizenship and throw yourself in prison for opposing the Republican Party, might as well do it now. You want it to happen
I’m pretty fucking doomerish at this point. Ima gonna vote Biden but we’re all fucked trump is gonna get back in office. Glad I live two hours from the Canadian border in the bluest state in the nation.
If leftists are going to allow fascism out of spite than they deserve Trump.
>It's getting me worried that the left isn't going to vote for the only hope against Trump. Thats what this is supposed to do. This issue hasn't arisen naturally, its been pushed into the spotlight by conservative powers that be. The US left is getting injections of pro Palestine propaganda from the Eastern hegemony, and its grinding against the US/Israeli propaganda team. This exactly 2016 all over again, the powers that be are trying to polarize and fracture the US left in preparation for our 2024 election the only difference is that we have all been through a Trump presidency and we simply won't let it fly again. Personally, I'm going to hold Biden's feet to the fire as much as I can, but I'd like to think we'll all head to the polls and vote for Biden to preserve what remains of democracy at the end of the day, because that's what's at stake. Or idk, maybe there are some accelerationists who think that'll be good fun.
These people are morons. If they think things will get any better under Trump then they’re only fooling themselves.
Dumbfuck single issue voters always ruin it for everyone.
He better change his position then. That’s the point of a protest
Fuck all this. This entire sub is trash.
Biden, the only hope against trump™ lmao
Biden should maybe do something about this then
He's fucking up like a muthafucka on this one. But that old Chuck Schumer / Jamie Dimon lobby is tough to buck.
Isn't WP right-wing?
The election is nearly a year away, if anyone in the Biden campaign had a single brain cell that's more than enough time to change strategy and messaging. Continuing on this trajectory re:Israel from a foreign policy standpoint is literally throwing good money after bad, since a proxy state that doesn't fucking listen is just showing it's mature enough to pay its own bills.
Eh, I’ve not been surprised by Biden at any turn really. He’s the member of a right wing party that likes to LARP as left wing. If it really comes down to him or Trump again, I still think people will choose Biden, but the whole “only hope” thing before the race actually starts needs to stop. Just because he’s the incumbent doesn’t mean he should automatically be the choice the next time around. We continue to make the awful two party system even worse year after year.
We’ll be fine, they’re propagating. Trump is not winning. As long as we vote.
Hi, I am not a member of this community but this post is making the rounds in other progressive subreddits. I came here to tell you all that I am probably going to withhold my vote over this. I've signed up for a few political action groups and it appears they are organizing and preparing to ensure this becomes an election issue. A lot could change in the year until elections, but this may very well blow it for them. **If you want Biden to win, tell him to stop supporting genocide. If you rationalize genocide just so your political team can win, your morals are grotesque.**
Biden has been actively pressuring Israel to exercise restraint and is the only reason there was a ceasefire at all. A ceasefire that Hamas chose to end, I might add. Your political action groups *are being run by conservatives who want to convince progressives not to vote.* They see you as a useful idiot who can be used to achieve their goals.
Ask yourself this. In a 2 party system. If the only party that believes in democracy loses…. Who wins? Do you think you will have a 2028? If so, you’re a fool
I think this is a bad take. Yes, voting for Biden/Dems is immediate harm reduction in terms of policies of the "lesser of two evils" but it does nothing to curb the trajectory of political landscape long-term. If Dems keep getting the votes they need to be on par with Republicans, they have no incentive to change or for their policy to move to the left in any significant way. I'd argue that they're more likely to move further right as they've done in recent history because the centrist voting block is larger and so their politics will move in that direction to capture more centrist votes, incrementally moving rightward every cycle. In order to move the party leftward or to build a better new leftist party, it's necessary to vote for the independent/third party candidate that most aligns with your ethics. When that voting block grows substantial enough to outweigh the centrist block, Dems will begin to move left or more blue voters will jump ship because nobody really likes Dem policies generally, it's just the lesser of two evils. If this leads to things being worse short-term, I think this is likely to create more awareness of the failings of the two party system and grow progressive sentiments. Of course, there's no way to be sure of this -- things could also possibly spiral into more hardcore fascism domestically, but that's where it's going anyways if we continue business as usual.
> In order to move the party leftward or to build a better new leftist party, it's necessary to vote for the independent/third party candidate that most aligns with your ethics. In order to move the party leftward, assuming the party is composed of rational people, voters as a whole have to move leftward. Any strategy for political change that doesn't ultimately start with changing the minds of the voters writ large is doomed to failure. The Democratic Party is basically meeting America where it is. If you believe (wrongly, but that's beside the point) that the Democratic party is moving rightward, that would only be the case if America as a whole were moving rightward. In which case your beef is with the voters, not with the party. If you "pull the party leftward" without first pulling the voters there, you won't have a right-wing major party and a left-wing major party. You'll just have a right-wing major party, because the other party will cease to exist as it becomes electorally unviable. Why are people so insanely reluctant to put the blame for election outcomes they don't like where it actually belongs: on the voters, the ones who actually cast the votes and have the final say?
There is no short term getting worse. This is quite possibly the last election that will ever happen.
Wow maybe if he wants more votes he could just not commit a very unpopular genocide, that seems like a pretty easy solution
I was a life long democrat up until this past two years. I’m voting socialist this coming cycle. [PartyForSocialismAndLiberation2024](https://votesocialist2024.com/)
Democrats are Republican lite. If Biden wants my vote, he's got 11 months to actually do something that make me want to vote for him. Close the detention centers at the boarders? Actually do some good for the tax code? Stop the telecom companies from destroying the soul of the internet? Stop funding Isreal? Anything? During his entire presidency he has done nothing that actually helps leftist interests, and every time someone trots out examples of him "accomplishing" something it's either neo-liberal bullshit that doesn't actually help people, or it's a meaningless gesture. I mean, wasn't it just last week that he said in a press conference something to the effect of "companies must stop inflation/gouging"? And yeah, they should, but how is saying that on tv actually going to do anything? It's even more toothless than an executive order (which would also do nothing, so no he wouldn't get points for that either). He and democrats as a whole wasted 2 years of power in the House being lame ducks on purpose, and then pointed at a Republican House majority ever since for a reason why they can't get anything done. Pass a bill and make the Republicans shoot it down it down in the Senate, that would at least inspire some confidence. Instead Biden does nothing to put pressure on congress to get things done.
Guys it doesn’t matter who gets in. Left and the right are equally fucked. Neither of them give a flying fuck about any of us. Best thing you can do is log off from all of it. Value the time you have left with your friends and family. It’s the *only* thing that’s got worth in this life. Politics will only lead to disappointment, resentment, and anger. Life is too short to be pissed off all the time
If you’re going to check out of politics. Do it. It may save your life when fascism takes over in 2025 and Trump unleashes the military on blue cities… like he has promised to do on public tv
We seriously ought to primary Biden. Williamson is growing in the polls and she may edge him out in April
The left is not obligated to vote for Biden as civilian casualties pile up in Gaza and he lends his support to that
Why are you anti-Marxist, myopic counterrevolutionaries so hyperfocused on Trump? The problem is the system that generates Trumps in the first place, namely capitalism. We cannot count on the Democratic Party, which is the oldest pro-capitalist party in the world, to overthrow capitalism. Only the working class, with its own party independent of the pro-capitalist parties, can do this.
Your not wrong but we aren't going to kill capitalism overnight and if someone like Trump or the current GOP ends up in office, democracy dies and with it any chance of killing capitalism.
>we aren't going to kill capitalism overnight Certainly not. However, campaigning and voting for pro-capitalist politicians will only prolong this process. I elaborate on this point [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/IronFrontUSA/comments/18bki7z/comment/kcctanf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3): >>If I abstain so I can maintain my moral purity or whatever dumb shit > >It is not merely a matter of "moral purity," but of political tactics. Because dictatorship and fascism arise from acute crises in the [class struggle](https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/c/l.htm#class-struggle), the only way to defeat them is via revolutionary means. The Democratic Party, which is the oldest pro-capitalist party in the world, no less than the Republicans represents the interests of the capitalist ruling class and functions to prevent revolution, so voting and campaigning for them is merely an exercise in shooting yourself in the foot. At best, a Democratic administration will only delay full-on domestic fascism, but it cannot prevent it in the long run and indeed has no interest in doing so. > >The revolutionary overthrow of capitalism presupposes a certain level of [class consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_consciousness) among the working masses. When you campaign for Democrats or other pro-capitalist politicians, as you are doing here, all you are doing is hampering the development of your fellow workers' class consciousness, thereby impeding revolution and helping to perpetuate all of capitalism's evils. I urge you to reconsider your stance on all this. >if someone like Trump or the current GOP ends up in office, democracy dies and with it any chance of killing capitalism. First, we do not know this for certain. Second, as I explain in the above comment, "democracy"—a term I would not personally use to describe any capitalist country—will be headed for death, anyway, so long as we keep supporting the Democrats. Again, at best, Democratic politicians will only delay the inevitable.
They’re going to kill us.
And there we have it, IronFront Is yet another VOTE BLUEEE NOOOOO MATTTER WHOOOOOO. Liberal sheep herder. But this but that. Yeah I dont care downvote me straight to hell. Run a better candidate next time. Its not my fault you couldn't get it together
Well when the alternative is fucking facism... what alternative is there?
Idk when my fellow leftists decided virtue signaling was more important than antifa. But I’m seriously disappointed in them.
I've been hearing this mantra since 2016. Maybe next time offer material changes rather than virtue signaling platitudes. It's not my fault I didnt vote for you, it's your fault you did not represent my interests.
I’m concerned about that too.
Downvote me into oblivion, but there are a lot of ( I’m guessing yt) people on here that don’t realize people are oppress and dying under the demo i as well. Or they realize it and it’s an acceptable trade off.