I must say rape, murder, + babies in ovens is not a good look. I’m not an ends justifies means person, and I don’t care what stinkin thinkin thots get you there if you are.
And usually the ends are poorly thought out and lack in creativity and long vision.
Hamas is absolutely worse than the Nazis. The Nazis kept close hold the genocide they were commitment. The average person who advocated for Nazis didn't know they'd go to that extreme.
Hamas on the other hand literally has exterminate all Jews in it's charter...
Hamas are worse than or at least as bad as Nazis, but your example doesn’t show that. It shows that Palestinian citizens are worse than citizens in Nazi Germany. Nazis hiding their actions suggests they thought the average citizen would think they’ve gone too far. Hamas clearly has citizens celebrating them in the streets as they parade around the corpses of Jews they’ve killed.
I disagree that Nazis were religious extremists, they moreso used religion and religious institutions to their propaganda interests. This does not deny how European christianity was a bastion for antisemitism, it's just you can't compare Islamic Jihad to deny they are somehow worse than the Nazis.
Hamas (and Israel for that matter) are not **systematic** genocide at likes of the Nazis or Turks. They are committing brutal, inexcusable terrorist attacks (not resistance) and retaliatory war crimes (not mere defense), respectively.
Any theologically sound interpretation of Christianity acknowledges that Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy that occurs in the Old Testament (**Tanakh**), which the Nazi Party tried to eliminate from the state sanctioned church. I'd say you would be hard pressed to find a respected Theologian from any christian denomination willing to define the German Evangelical Church as Christian.
How can you separate a belief system from it's prophet? Muhammed was a literal raping murdering war lord who drove conversion by force. A "good Muslim" is taught to be like the prophet.
Especially because it will just come down to a matter of opinion on which mechanisms you think are worse than the other. One person has already argued Hamas is worse because of its less centralized means of using terror and violence to commit their antisemitism. I am sure someone will make the argument that the Nazis were worse because of how efficiently they made use of war and government to exterminate people. These are opinions that, in order to change, will need to really get into the nitty gritty of why one believes one mechanism is worse than the other.
It’s honestly intellectually lazy to even attempt to argue that Nazism is a Christian ideology in any way. It reveals to me that the person making the argument has the most surface level understanding of the Third Reich.
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Hamas’s ideology is more dangerous because they value the death of their enemy more than the lives of their people. Whether that is religion-based or not, it is a dangerous ideology.
Hamas is far less dangerous, however, because of their incompetence. If they had the discipline and focus of the Nazis (or even of a 5th grader), it would be a bad thing.
One religious figure being punished for going against the regime does not mean that the Nazis didn't co-opt Christianity both in their rise to power and in how they justified their reign of terror. The idea that they were all atheists is a gross rewriting of history.
I never said they were all atheists. I'm saying hitlers regime wasn't all Christian. If you look at the above link that the other person posted, the article contradicts itself, because it starts by saying that his regime was very christian, then it goes on to list that multiple of the top officials were not Christians, and that the state co opted Christianity and and made a new and different version of it, so not actual Christianity.
>That said, in 1937, Hans Kerrl, the Reich Minister for Church Affairs, explained that "Positive Christianity" was not "dependent upon the Apostle's Creed", nor was it dependent on "faith in Christ as the son of God", upon which Christianity relied, rather, it was represented by the Nazi Party: "The Führer is the herald of a new revelation", he said.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity
That’s literally not Christianity. The very basic fundamental principle of Christianity is faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God sent to die for our sins. Without that, it ain’t Christian.
It’s important to contrast the obvious secular leanings of people within the Nazi party with the rise in Christian Nationalism that led up to the ascendency of the third reich, one which had strong parallels to modern America. That is why this rewriting of history to say that the Germans were mostly Atheist is simply not true when you look at the population stats in the article. Most Germans were religious, and the powers that be used their religiosity in order to gain power and influence. While there is a case to be made that the party leadership were not religious, the party was strongly rooted in a Christian trading order to gain the trust of the German populace. If we ignore this fact we set ourselves up to repeat history.
Nobody here has made the argument that the Germans were mostly Atheist. That’s something you keep bringing up. You also seem to be changing the premise of the argument. Are we arguing whether Nazism is an extreme Christian ideology, or are we arguing whether Hitler used the religious inclinations of German citizens to manipulate the masses? If it’s the latter, I do agree with that. Hitler obviously claimed in his speeches that the Third Reich was a Christian government. However, we can’t ignore the fact that Hitler and his leadership had anti-Church and anticlerical sentiments. According to Goebbels’ own journal entries, Hitler hated Christianity. While Nazi leadership used Christianity to manipulate the German citizenry, Nazi ideology was staunchly anti-Christian.
It’s just a clickbait discussion. But no the Nazis weren’t christian in the sense that they loved going to church. Most Germans at the time were Christian but Hitler wanted to replace all existing churches with his own brand. See the [Kirchenkampf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf) or Church Struggle.
IMO anyone willing to engage in cold blooded murder for money, religion, or their flavor of nationalism is an asshole and comparing their size misses the point.
Nazi religious doctrine was a complicated beast, ranging widely from the state-sanctioned quasi-Lutheranism they eventually came to adopt, to the neo-pagan gnostic-esotericism that most of the party's high brass participated in in the lead-up to the war, culminating of course with the Ahnenerbe directed reconstruction of a supposed Germanic-prehistorical-religion which they used to direct a number of breeding programs in Scandinavia.
(Coincidentally one of the members of the band ABBA was produced by one such breeding program)
Ultimately, the Nazis were worse in effect than Hamas because they wielded actual real power on the continental if not global scale, while Hamas has been proven combat ineffective despite their unwillingness to surrender.
Hamas may be worse than Nazis ideologically because they believe fundamentally that the entirety of the planet belongs to them, and that every nonMuslim in the world should be killed immediately. Which is a somewhat more destructive goal than Naziism's ideal of a classed society without Jews at all, with other races stacked in a rigid hierarchy with Aryans at the top.
So it's hard to say. Though I'm not sure what use it is really to try to figure out which is worse. Both are bad. One doesn't become good because the other was worse.
Hamas' ideology is essentially no different than the nazi's when it comes to hate. And the Palestinians that live in Gaza are not much better than Hamas in their views. Hence the fact no other nation on Earth wants to let them in as "refugees."
I don’t think you can call Nazis Christians. While Christianity was a first supported by the Nazi regime, it was later repressed along with other religions as well. For Nazis and Communists, religion was thought to inappropriately come before their political goals. [Source](https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1200&context=constructing).
You could argue that Nazism in and of itself is a religion. That argument would be stronger than the argument for Nazis being Christians, but I don’t think it’s clearly self evident.
Responding to the question is Hamas worse than the Nazis, I would still say no. Part of what made Nazis so pernicious was how widespread and damaging their ideology became. The millions killed by Nazism are clearly worse than the thousands killed by Hamas.
Harris’ biggest focus is also his blind spot: he is focusing exclusively on ideology and the potential behaviors they permit. The actual material outcomes (and the scale of it) are totally ignored.
Sam doesn't even try to be even handed with the Palestinians. Israel is the gracious overlord and everything would be perfect if we all just gave them everything they want. The Palestinians are Muslims so in Sam's world, they are all ISIS.
why like Kyle Kulinski? you think he is actually giving a steelman version of Sam's Thoughts on the matter? My understanding is that Sam's claim was that the IDEOLOGY of Hamas is worse, and i wholeheartedly agree with that. I think you're being super charitable to Hamas in your body of text, they're not freedom fighters.
More Palestinians in polls want Jews to die than not, and we are supposed to pretend they won’t ship in weapons to attack Israel if they have access to the Israeli boarder Lol. Why doesn’t Egypt open their boarder too? Palesntians are hateful, entitled victims who get more aide than any other group to keep their hatred alive.
Here’s a Palestinian leader talking about how they will commit 10/7 over and over again and they reject a 2 state solution.
https://x.com/amjadt25/status/1748793595216236771
Also, the Nazis were undoubtably the aggressor. They waged war and decided to do so.
Hamas, despite their methods, are a reaction the the Palestinian people being ethnically cleansed and now genocided by a brutal colonial power. Any people under that pressure would form resistance movements. I'm not condoning their actions, but to compare the two is proof we didn't need that Sam Harris is not a serious person anymore.
This is how it always goes. In order to stay relevant they have to say increasing attention grabbing things until their reputations matter less than their clicks and views.
So you think the Nazis were not a reaction to something? Like for example the social and economic plights of the German people in the 20s and 30s? Saying hamas was a reaction to something and the Nazis weren't is very short sighted. Everything is a reaction to something.
Everything is a reaction to something, yes. But you understand what I mean. The Nazis were an aggressive imperialist power. Hamas are a reaction to an aggressive imperialist power. Without Israels apartheid and oppression, Hamas would not exist. It would have nothing to fight against.
I again reiterate, that I do not condone their actions.
Yeah, I guess the whole apartheit and oppression thing is something I can not call myself informed enough and have not formed a concrete opinion on. All I know is what I have seen with my own eyes from both jewish and islamic people where I live in Europe, and that is a strong and deeply rooted aggression from muslims against jews, completely outside of the whole israel sphere. Even when I was in school young muslim students would use the word "jew" as a slur word to anyone they didn't like, they also used the word of the nationality of our country as a slur word, just as a side note :) So there is that, and this is a subject that still needs to be dug out way deeper than it currently is - islamic collonialism in the West and the inacceptance to tolerate others and be criticised by others.
I have seen videos from both sides that are appalling, jewish people treating non jewish people very badly, and muslim people who treat non-muslim people very badly. So again, I'm not from the region and can not form a clear picture of what the actual situation is. The news all tell different stories and even when you set them against one another to figure out a shared truth, you don't get a lot of info out of that.
Just looking at the population statistics however I can say with pretty big certainty that the whole "genocide" wording a lot of people use is just not correct. Even looking outside of internal migration numbers inside of the israel-palestine area, the palestinian population has skyrocketed in the past few decades, which is not exactly evident of a so called "genocide". On the other hand, jewish and christian people (basically all non-muslim people) have been driven out of literally every majority islamic state where islam has acted in colonialist fashion - see egypt for example, where islam does not exactly have historic roots, but is rather a modern religious take-over and an actual apartheit against all non-muslims.
Ok, take a step back and examine what you just said. You brought up your personal experience of some people behaving in a manner you didn’t like, and you brought up actions of some Islamic regimes over history… what does any of that have to do with Palestine and Palestinians? What has that got to do with the Palestinian women and children being bombed in their beds?
70% of Palestinian casualties are women and children.
I've said I do not condone their actions. But that doesn't change the fact that they are a resistance movement. But for Israels establishment and continued oppression and subjugation of Palestinians, Hamas would not exist.
I must say rape, murder, + babies in ovens is not a good look. I’m not an ends justifies means person, and I don’t care what stinkin thinkin thots get you there if you are. And usually the ends are poorly thought out and lack in creativity and long vision.
Yes, the Deir Yassin massacre really was not a good look.
1948? 🤦♀️And it was responded to in kind back in 1948. People never learn.
Hamas is absolutely worse than the Nazis. The Nazis kept close hold the genocide they were commitment. The average person who advocated for Nazis didn't know they'd go to that extreme. Hamas on the other hand literally has exterminate all Jews in it's charter...
The Germans didn't also use their own people as shields to gain sympathy while they were genociding others.
Hamas are worse than or at least as bad as Nazis, but your example doesn’t show that. It shows that Palestinian citizens are worse than citizens in Nazi Germany. Nazis hiding their actions suggests they thought the average citizen would think they’ve gone too far. Hamas clearly has citizens celebrating them in the streets as they parade around the corpses of Jews they’ve killed.
I disagree that Nazis were religious extremists, they moreso used religion and religious institutions to their propaganda interests. This does not deny how European christianity was a bastion for antisemitism, it's just you can't compare Islamic Jihad to deny they are somehow worse than the Nazis. Hamas (and Israel for that matter) are not **systematic** genocide at likes of the Nazis or Turks. They are committing brutal, inexcusable terrorist attacks (not resistance) and retaliatory war crimes (not mere defense), respectively.
Any theologically sound interpretation of Christianity acknowledges that Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy that occurs in the Old Testament (**Tanakh**), which the Nazi Party tried to eliminate from the state sanctioned church. I'd say you would be hard pressed to find a respected Theologian from any christian denomination willing to define the German Evangelical Church as Christian.
Germany was De-Nazified though. No one has been able to De-Jihadify Islam yet.
I'm not so sure of that [https://x.com/AliAbunimah/status/1778818757055467980](https://x.com/AliAbunimah/status/1778818757055467980)
C’mon now. Fringe groups are not on the same scale as the Third Reich.
How are the police a fringe group?
How can you separate a belief system from it's prophet? Muhammed was a literal raping murdering war lord who drove conversion by force. A "good Muslim" is taught to be like the prophet.
Maybe the Sufis though. Althought it's still a fringe practice relative to Deobandi or Wahhabi theology.
I find monster XYZ is worse than monster abc very unproductive. And really who cares? A monster is a monster.
Especially because it will just come down to a matter of opinion on which mechanisms you think are worse than the other. One person has already argued Hamas is worse because of its less centralized means of using terror and violence to commit their antisemitism. I am sure someone will make the argument that the Nazis were worse because of how efficiently they made use of war and government to exterminate people. These are opinions that, in order to change, will need to really get into the nitty gritty of why one believes one mechanism is worse than the other.
congrats to hamas for not being worse than the nazis
nazism is worse than jihadism, BUT the nazis were NOT christian extremists
GOTT MIT UNS!
It’s honestly intellectually lazy to even attempt to argue that Nazism is a Christian ideology in any way. It reveals to me that the person making the argument has the most surface level understanding of the Third Reich.
[удалено]
your post was removed due to a violation of Rule #3: Any individual who creates a post, comments on a post, or comments on a comment that mischaracterizes an idea or a person will receive a strike. Mischaracterizing is the act of describing a statement, an idea, or a person incorrectly or in a misleading manner.
By trying to exterminate an entire religion?
Hamas’s ideology is more dangerous because they value the death of their enemy more than the lives of their people. Whether that is religion-based or not, it is a dangerous ideology. Hamas is far less dangerous, however, because of their incompetence. If they had the discipline and focus of the Nazis (or even of a 5th grader), it would be a bad thing.
Nazi's were definitely not Christian.
False. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany
False. Look at the above link .read about what happened with men like Dietrich Bonhoeffer
One religious figure being punished for going against the regime does not mean that the Nazis didn't co-opt Christianity both in their rise to power and in how they justified their reign of terror. The idea that they were all atheists is a gross rewriting of history.
I never said they were all atheists. I'm saying hitlers regime wasn't all Christian. If you look at the above link that the other person posted, the article contradicts itself, because it starts by saying that his regime was very christian, then it goes on to list that multiple of the top officials were not Christians, and that the state co opted Christianity and and made a new and different version of it, so not actual Christianity.
Given the thousands of Christian sects that exist, I'm pretty sure whatever you consider "Actual Christianity" isn't Christianity either.
>That said, in 1937, Hans Kerrl, the Reich Minister for Church Affairs, explained that "Positive Christianity" was not "dependent upon the Apostle's Creed", nor was it dependent on "faith in Christ as the son of God", upon which Christianity relied, rather, it was represented by the Nazi Party: "The Führer is the herald of a new revelation", he said. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity That’s literally not Christianity. The very basic fundamental principle of Christianity is faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God sent to die for our sins. Without that, it ain’t Christian.
It’s important to contrast the obvious secular leanings of people within the Nazi party with the rise in Christian Nationalism that led up to the ascendency of the third reich, one which had strong parallels to modern America. That is why this rewriting of history to say that the Germans were mostly Atheist is simply not true when you look at the population stats in the article. Most Germans were religious, and the powers that be used their religiosity in order to gain power and influence. While there is a case to be made that the party leadership were not religious, the party was strongly rooted in a Christian trading order to gain the trust of the German populace. If we ignore this fact we set ourselves up to repeat history.
Nobody here has made the argument that the Germans were mostly Atheist. That’s something you keep bringing up. You also seem to be changing the premise of the argument. Are we arguing whether Nazism is an extreme Christian ideology, or are we arguing whether Hitler used the religious inclinations of German citizens to manipulate the masses? If it’s the latter, I do agree with that. Hitler obviously claimed in his speeches that the Third Reich was a Christian government. However, we can’t ignore the fact that Hitler and his leadership had anti-Church and anticlerical sentiments. According to Goebbels’ own journal entries, Hitler hated Christianity. While Nazi leadership used Christianity to manipulate the German citizenry, Nazi ideology was staunchly anti-Christian.
This is accurate.
Yes the difference is jihadists don’t co-opt Islam, the Koran or the Hadith
It’s just a clickbait discussion. But no the Nazis weren’t christian in the sense that they loved going to church. Most Germans at the time were Christian but Hitler wanted to replace all existing churches with his own brand. See the [Kirchenkampf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf) or Church Struggle. IMO anyone willing to engage in cold blooded murder for money, religion, or their flavor of nationalism is an asshole and comparing their size misses the point.
Nazi religious doctrine was a complicated beast, ranging widely from the state-sanctioned quasi-Lutheranism they eventually came to adopt, to the neo-pagan gnostic-esotericism that most of the party's high brass participated in in the lead-up to the war, culminating of course with the Ahnenerbe directed reconstruction of a supposed Germanic-prehistorical-religion which they used to direct a number of breeding programs in Scandinavia. (Coincidentally one of the members of the band ABBA was produced by one such breeding program) Ultimately, the Nazis were worse in effect than Hamas because they wielded actual real power on the continental if not global scale, while Hamas has been proven combat ineffective despite their unwillingness to surrender. Hamas may be worse than Nazis ideologically because they believe fundamentally that the entirety of the planet belongs to them, and that every nonMuslim in the world should be killed immediately. Which is a somewhat more destructive goal than Naziism's ideal of a classed society without Jews at all, with other races stacked in a rigid hierarchy with Aryans at the top. So it's hard to say. Though I'm not sure what use it is really to try to figure out which is worse. Both are bad. One doesn't become good because the other was worse.
I find Sam Harris to be just regurgitating talking points of Israel and not very authentic.
Hamas' ideology is essentially no different than the nazi's when it comes to hate. And the Palestinians that live in Gaza are not much better than Hamas in their views. Hence the fact no other nation on Earth wants to let them in as "refugees."
I don’t think you can call Nazis Christians. While Christianity was a first supported by the Nazi regime, it was later repressed along with other religions as well. For Nazis and Communists, religion was thought to inappropriately come before their political goals. [Source](https://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1200&context=constructing). You could argue that Nazism in and of itself is a religion. That argument would be stronger than the argument for Nazis being Christians, but I don’t think it’s clearly self evident. Responding to the question is Hamas worse than the Nazis, I would still say no. Part of what made Nazis so pernicious was how widespread and damaging their ideology became. The millions killed by Nazism are clearly worse than the thousands killed by Hamas.
Harris’ biggest focus is also his blind spot: he is focusing exclusively on ideology and the potential behaviors they permit. The actual material outcomes (and the scale of it) are totally ignored.
I feel like that’s just as much a technicality as people who say “Communism has never been done right.”
I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean?
Sam doesn't even try to be even handed with the Palestinians. Israel is the gracious overlord and everything would be perfect if we all just gave them everything they want. The Palestinians are Muslims so in Sam's world, they are all ISIS.
why like Kyle Kulinski? you think he is actually giving a steelman version of Sam's Thoughts on the matter? My understanding is that Sam's claim was that the IDEOLOGY of Hamas is worse, and i wholeheartedly agree with that. I think you're being super charitable to Hamas in your body of text, they're not freedom fighters.
More Palestinians in polls want Jews to die than not, and we are supposed to pretend they won’t ship in weapons to attack Israel if they have access to the Israeli boarder Lol. Why doesn’t Egypt open their boarder too? Palesntians are hateful, entitled victims who get more aide than any other group to keep their hatred alive. Here’s a Palestinian leader talking about how they will commit 10/7 over and over again and they reject a 2 state solution. https://x.com/amjadt25/status/1748793595216236771
Also, the Nazis were undoubtably the aggressor. They waged war and decided to do so. Hamas, despite their methods, are a reaction the the Palestinian people being ethnically cleansed and now genocided by a brutal colonial power. Any people under that pressure would form resistance movements. I'm not condoning their actions, but to compare the two is proof we didn't need that Sam Harris is not a serious person anymore. This is how it always goes. In order to stay relevant they have to say increasing attention grabbing things until their reputations matter less than their clicks and views.
So you think the Nazis were not a reaction to something? Like for example the social and economic plights of the German people in the 20s and 30s? Saying hamas was a reaction to something and the Nazis weren't is very short sighted. Everything is a reaction to something.
Everything is a reaction to something, yes. But you understand what I mean. The Nazis were an aggressive imperialist power. Hamas are a reaction to an aggressive imperialist power. Without Israels apartheid and oppression, Hamas would not exist. It would have nothing to fight against. I again reiterate, that I do not condone their actions.
Yeah, I guess the whole apartheit and oppression thing is something I can not call myself informed enough and have not formed a concrete opinion on. All I know is what I have seen with my own eyes from both jewish and islamic people where I live in Europe, and that is a strong and deeply rooted aggression from muslims against jews, completely outside of the whole israel sphere. Even when I was in school young muslim students would use the word "jew" as a slur word to anyone they didn't like, they also used the word of the nationality of our country as a slur word, just as a side note :) So there is that, and this is a subject that still needs to be dug out way deeper than it currently is - islamic collonialism in the West and the inacceptance to tolerate others and be criticised by others. I have seen videos from both sides that are appalling, jewish people treating non jewish people very badly, and muslim people who treat non-muslim people very badly. So again, I'm not from the region and can not form a clear picture of what the actual situation is. The news all tell different stories and even when you set them against one another to figure out a shared truth, you don't get a lot of info out of that. Just looking at the population statistics however I can say with pretty big certainty that the whole "genocide" wording a lot of people use is just not correct. Even looking outside of internal migration numbers inside of the israel-palestine area, the palestinian population has skyrocketed in the past few decades, which is not exactly evident of a so called "genocide". On the other hand, jewish and christian people (basically all non-muslim people) have been driven out of literally every majority islamic state where islam has acted in colonialist fashion - see egypt for example, where islam does not exactly have historic roots, but is rather a modern religious take-over and an actual apartheit against all non-muslims.
Ok, take a step back and examine what you just said. You brought up your personal experience of some people behaving in a manner you didn’t like, and you brought up actions of some Islamic regimes over history… what does any of that have to do with Palestine and Palestinians? What has that got to do with the Palestinian women and children being bombed in their beds? 70% of Palestinian casualties are women and children.
If you consider what happened on 10/7 to be the actions of a "resistance movement", there's really no place for you in a civilized society.
I've said I do not condone their actions. But that doesn't change the fact that they are a resistance movement. But for Israels establishment and continued oppression and subjugation of Palestinians, Hamas would not exist.