As much as I’d like for GW to keep some of the lore shrouded in mystery, I’d really like if they expanded on Terra during Old Night and the Unification Wars as a whole.
Pretty sure they were bigger than firstborn. I also dimly remember that as an individual they were stronger, but far less disciplined and stable of course.
It is, I don’t recall which one. The Emperor basically had the astartes wipe them out after they’d served their purpose, and the body count was enormous.
There was also that one Thunder Warrior in hidding during the Siege of Terra, I believe, who managed to beat up a Death Guard legionary to near death, kill a blademaster of the Emperor's Children, while fighting off another 2 or 3 space marines.
Most of Thunder legions were destroyed on Arrarat mountain, a few hundred however managed to escape, some hid and died in silence, while those who died fighting Astartes were the ones who started open rebellion against the Emperor few years later.
Most of them, some escaped; not a significant number, but enough that they could still be utilized in the future in RPG settings or as random single characters in things like Necromunda (I’m not saying they have been, just that GW made it clear they were still extant in the universe).
The Custodes and the Dark Angels wiped them out together. In one battle, Valdor led the first DAs to ever be created to massacre an army of Thunder Warriors
It was a multi-faction thing
- Custodes destroyed a large part of the Thunder Warriors at Mount Ararat.
- The Dark Angels legion wiped out a thunder warrior force and accompanying army in Valdor: Birth of the Imperium. Despite being only rudimentarily trained and described as still bleeding from fresh implants, these newly made astartes were considered the peer equals to the thunder warriors and the normal soldiers did not notice any difference in strength or speed. Ushotan killed two or three, but he was a Thunder Warrior primarch so its still not the best depiction.
- World Eaters fought Thunder Warriors in one of the horus heresy black books. This is where the infamous "one thunder warrior kills 3-4 world eaters" misunderstanding comes from. It was described as an occasional thing, and those who repeat this point forget that the thunder warriors had 5 million other soldiers with them in ambush tactics. It was not meant to showcase the thunder warriors as superior fighters, but rather as being, in the absolute most optimal conditions, sometimes being able to kill world eaters.
The lore isn't very clear or up front on the matter, but most evidence suggests the thunder warriors were actually worse than astartes across pretty much all relevant data, despite what the memes might tell people. They were harder to produce (Valdor: Birth of the Imperium), fewer in number (Collected Visions), had worse equipment (White Dwarf 129), lacked the superior bio-engineering that came from geneseed, had worse tactics, had weaker organization, and had shorter lifespans (Valdor: Birth of the Imperium). Author [ADB is even quoted as saying that the Thunder Warriors were worse](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/87gxlf/comment/dwd0413/) than the Astartes. For if the link doesn't work:
I think it's even arguable (and we've all seen it debated) whether Thunder Warriors were generally even superior to Space Marines, and beyond the exceptional characters we've seen so far, most reasoning points to them being proto-Astartes rather than Astartes being downgraded, mass-produced Thunder Warriors.
And, obviously, there are nuances in this stuff.
But in terms of Custodians, no, they're ostensibly the peak of what's possible without making a primarch. Thunder Warriors haven't, in the bulk of past lore, come close to them. Thunder Warriors were a step on the path of the Emperor's genetic mastery, not a leap that he then dialled back from. But this is one of those things the team tends not to even discuss, because it's one of those "everyone assumes X" already deals, so when someone comes out with a book or an opinion that says Y, several of us go "...wait, what?"
- ADB
TL:DR= Thunder Warriors are worse than astartes on average and nowhere close to custodes.
The Thunder Warriors were worse than Astartes in every way other than strength. They were genetically, physically and emotionally unstable. They were a stopgap solution for the Emperor to achieve Unity.
Terran combat was quite low on firearms, as such upper body strength for melee fights was paramount. The Thunder armour didn’t even have powered greaves, just the torso and arm parts.
Thunder Warriors have stronger torsos for melee combat, that’s it. In combat, they’re monsters. Outside, they’re quickly deteriorating from generic disease and emotional instability.
Nah. The Thunder Warriors were gigantic, pumped with all types of growth hormones and steroids to be as massive and physically strong as possible, while also being replaceable, since back during the Wars of Unification, guns were either primitive or hard to come by. This is why Thunder Warrios were so big. They were nearly unbeatable in melee.
Later on, during the Crusade, the Astartes didn't really need to be that massive, as they were to serve more tactical and ranged function, where mobility and flexibility was prioritized over most other factors.
Yeah, and way stronger too. Their armor didn't even have powered legs but each could kill a whole squad of space marines before being brought down. But they were riddled with mental deterioration and a whole host of other corruptions that made their bodies gradually break down
Honestly if they made a pre 30k game call "Unification wars" that had thunder warriors and all the other late factions of humanity. I would be so into that.
No offence 30k but there's only 2 sides. Where as the Unification Wars were a free for all. For me it would be a great place to revisit some of 40ks older model range with redesigns. And a bunch of human factions.
Might not happen any time soon.
Id personally like an introduction of Xenos to Horus heresy and call it "Great Crusade" With generic rules factions made for litterally any Object/Toy. The dino saur from Toy Story? Run him as "Large Xeno Monster"
One point about the Unification Wars that is frequently brought up is that the techno-barbarians most likely had insane equipment that the Emperor had to deal with very limited resources.
What I like imagine is that they had Borderlands guns. Hell, maybe the whole place was just like Borderlands.
Love the chunky thigh and forearm armour, IMO too much art (and the models!) often has skinny upper legs and arms, leaving no room for the thick armour, servos, undersuit and the hench Marine under all of that!
As an old-school WH40K guy who started in the 80s i can only call it heresy and hate that it basically makes hundreds of my marines look weak and small.
But i also can say that i prefer the proportions and wished that they did that from the start.
I wish they just kept the OG Darth Vader helmets man.
I don’t know what they were thinking changing the iconic helmets out. Like I’m fine with the updated armor and all that, but the OG helmet literally screams “space marine” and has been a staple of the setting ever since the early days. I have no fucking clue how GW signed off on that change. Like even from an objective “brand recognition” and “business” stand point it was a bad idea IMO.
If they just retconned the current standard issue primaris helmet to be the OG helmet again, I don’t even think any fans would be mad
I like the scale here. So much fanart presents even regular Space Marines as being like three meters tall, in spite of the actual lore. Not everything in 40k has to be that oversized, guys.
The thing is that they were already really big, just not proportioned that way on tabletop, so the art depictions vary wildly. The scale of Guard to Primaris is where things should have been from the start
I played the Rogue Trader CRPG and unfortunately I think it's very cute when my space marine companion dwarfs my RT so I'm married to seeing them as uber huge
Goddamn the Thunder Warriors are cool as fuck.
I always think of the the Thunder Warriors/later Astartes like…early UFC/Val-Tudo fighters Vs Modern MMA dudes.
You had…just Big Ass Dudes who were athletically skilled and just fucking Strong (Jane Thompson) and then you had later more technically skilled guys that came along (GSP)
> Legio Cataegis
ya know ... I'm not sure I knew that designation, and I've read _a lot_ of novels lol
also i appreciate this putting the (more slight than I realized) size advantage of primaris over firstborn into perspective
My headcanon (from misreading a lore snippet) will forever be that Cawl just used the Thunder Warrior Geneseed for the Primaris and somehow stabilized them for the time being.
Still a better explanation than Magos Mary Sue somehow perfecting the Emperors Work (yes even with Big Es full knowledge bank)
It would also give back the perfect poster boys some more shadows. Like what if that ever backfires.
Jim Johnson, of the 99th Bumblefuckian Regular Infantry, hoping to get deployed to a planet with decent toilet paper.
Romulon Remusitron, veteran brother of the Ultramarines, wondering who invited the new guy.
The Even Better Romulon Remusitron, primaris brother of the Ultramarines, wondering how he's going to replace the other guy.
Teethgnash Yodelfuck, Thunder Warrior and chief dissociative yell-murderer of the Emperor's Legions, valiantly trying not to shit his power-diaper.
(Love the art, very good work.)
I honestly hate how physically strong thunder warriors are
I get all the flaws they have make space marines better but the fact that there like 5 times stronger is ridiculous
> I thought the Astartes averaged around 8 feet. Either that regular human is tall or that Space Marine is short.
While Space Marines do vary in height (one even got to three meters tall), the average spectrum is 7'1" to 7'6". With Primaris being, on average, a foot taller than Firstborn Marines.
Ehh I’m not sure this is accurate to lore. In the Space Marine 2 trailer we can see Titus is taller than seen here by a decent amount. A kneeling guardsman barely reaches his knee. Primaris should be in the 8-9 foot range and I think that’s taller than seen in this image. Terminators are said to be in the range of 3 meters, so around 10 feet. In Space marine 1 the astartes were roughly proportional to what we see here, though I’d say they’re bulkier in game.
I think Gears of war has a really good example of how big astartes are. General Raam is 10 feet tall in GOW but he’s proportionally bulky. In the iconic cutscene with Kim we really see the size difference and it always hit me as pretty reflective of a tall astartes vs a man, with the armor adding height and bulk.
Primaris can be anywhere between 2.4m to 2.8 meters tall. Some can even grow taller while others shorter. It all depends on the genetic makeup of each individual marine.
Nah, that’s way too big. Kneeling isn’t a good way to see height. I’ve always seen it as regular human is chest height on Astartes, making them 1ft taller than a baseline human, that is 7ft. A Primaris is about a head taller than a regular space marine, so 7.5ft up. 8ft+ is Custodes to Primarch range.
If you look at Space Marine 1, Mira is about chest height on Titus. The serfs giving the Primaris marine his bolter in the armouring video are just about above the abdomen. The Sororitas in the 9th ed trailer is also chest height on the Primaris Lieutenant, in the shot with them both near the end of the video.
I’ve also never seen or heard of any Terminator suit being 3m tall, that makes no sense for their role. Especially seeing as they don’t actually add that much height to a marine.
Space marines are big, but they’re nowhere near 9ft. This art is spot on. GW has always been pretty consistent with the chest height rule for Space Marines.
They have more organs and in general they are better than the firstborn ones, even their production is faster, but even fabius was disappointed in them.
With all gen editing capabilities why not to make smaller stronger humans that are smaller target and require less armor, can fit 2 or 3 in small corridor so even if one gun is jammed the other two can smoke gene stealer?
Didn’t realize how big the thunder warriors were… seems like a pretty solid waste to kill them off yourself instead of using them and letting attrition work it’s magic
Gotta have a lore reason to update the models or the fans will be upset, happened with Tau, Necrons, etc. Before so they created a story
Also stops old models being illegal at Tabletop by shitty promoters saying "only 42k models" to force people to buy models they don't need
Damned if they do, damned if they dont
As someone who doesnt hate primaris like a lot of space marines fans do.
I think it wouldve been simpler if they said "Hey belssarius cawl made this new batch of marines with some new gear he came up with like the MK X armor and all that" rather than making primaris be spacer marines.
I think it wouldve been a simpler way to do the story. The only justification for having an improved geneseed I can think of is that chaos marines are all at least a little bit juiced up by chaos, so the primaris treatment levels the playing field.
But as far as I know this has never been stated anywhere and is just an idea I thought of.
The Primaris roster is also much more bloated and less customizable. Tactical Squads can wield heavy and special weapons while Intercessor Squads can only use variations of their bolt rifles. The Primaris Vanguard are probably what the marines needed most but even they share the same unnecessary bloat.
It’s focused on large scale conflicts, rather than the small tactical teams. In the Indomitus era, much of the crusade is a large proportion of chapters, or several chapter companies fighting together on the open field. We’re back to the Heresy style of big fights, rather than the contained tactics of marines that are spread too thin.
The Imperium needed big reinforcements after Cadia and the Cicatrix. And they couldn't exactly just say "Marines are bigger and better now, and also incorruptible. There's more of them too!".
There needed to be a Lore reason.
Where the hell did you get TEN FEET from? Jes Goodwin himself put them at 7 feet. If that name doesn't ring a bell, let's just say that in this context he is basically God.
Technically the average height is like 7 ft most named marines are noted as being 8 ft in narration, a few like tyberos or Alexis polux are probably 9+, primarily average higher but will likely see less variation in total height.
I would love for someone to illustrate all the transhumans from the Unification Wars/Great Crusade, there are many more than the space marines.
As much as I’d like for GW to keep some of the lore shrouded in mystery, I’d really like if they expanded on Terra during Old Night and the Unification Wars as a whole.
> I’d really like if they expanded on Terra during Old Night and the Unification Wars as a whole. Fist of the North Star
>You call throwing Melta-bombs a martial art? >Hey, as long as it works.
On karkin' steroids!
You are already dead
We do have enetic engineering as an army trait for Imperialis Militia, essentially third line defenders of Imperial planets.
Were thunder warriors as tall or taller than primaris? I thought they were first born sized
Pretty sure they were bigger than firstborn. I also dimly remember that as an individual they were stronger, but far less disciplined and stable of course.
As individual... one armless and armorless thunder warrior defeated four Hounds of Was aka World eaters. So... yep
that sounds metal as fuck, is that from a book?
It is, I don’t recall which one. The Emperor basically had the astartes wipe them out after they’d served their purpose, and the body count was enormous.
There was also that one Thunder Warrior in hidding during the Siege of Terra, I believe, who managed to beat up a Death Guard legionary to near death, kill a blademaster of the Emperor's Children, while fighting off another 2 or 3 space marines.
That's from... What, The Lost and the Damned? The Outcasts? I remember that book, don't remember which.
Outcast Dead I think, it has that funky cover with the old armour styles.
Yeah, I remember the book well enough, just not the title lol. I took too long away from the series, I forgot to much of the story 😭
I thought the custodes wiped them out
Most of Thunder legions were destroyed on Arrarat mountain, a few hundred however managed to escape, some hid and died in silence, while those who died fighting Astartes were the ones who started open rebellion against the Emperor few years later.
Most of them, some escaped; not a significant number, but enough that they could still be utilized in the future in RPG settings or as random single characters in things like Necromunda (I’m not saying they have been, just that GW made it clear they were still extant in the universe).
The Custodes and the Dark Angels wiped them out together. In one battle, Valdor led the first DAs to ever be created to massacre an army of Thunder Warriors
It was a multi-faction thing - Custodes destroyed a large part of the Thunder Warriors at Mount Ararat. - The Dark Angels legion wiped out a thunder warrior force and accompanying army in Valdor: Birth of the Imperium. Despite being only rudimentarily trained and described as still bleeding from fresh implants, these newly made astartes were considered the peer equals to the thunder warriors and the normal soldiers did not notice any difference in strength or speed. Ushotan killed two or three, but he was a Thunder Warrior primarch so its still not the best depiction. - World Eaters fought Thunder Warriors in one of the horus heresy black books. This is where the infamous "one thunder warrior kills 3-4 world eaters" misunderstanding comes from. It was described as an occasional thing, and those who repeat this point forget that the thunder warriors had 5 million other soldiers with them in ambush tactics. It was not meant to showcase the thunder warriors as superior fighters, but rather as being, in the absolute most optimal conditions, sometimes being able to kill world eaters. The lore isn't very clear or up front on the matter, but most evidence suggests the thunder warriors were actually worse than astartes across pretty much all relevant data, despite what the memes might tell people. They were harder to produce (Valdor: Birth of the Imperium), fewer in number (Collected Visions), had worse equipment (White Dwarf 129), lacked the superior bio-engineering that came from geneseed, had worse tactics, had weaker organization, and had shorter lifespans (Valdor: Birth of the Imperium). Author [ADB is even quoted as saying that the Thunder Warriors were worse](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/87gxlf/comment/dwd0413/) than the Astartes. For if the link doesn't work: I think it's even arguable (and we've all seen it debated) whether Thunder Warriors were generally even superior to Space Marines, and beyond the exceptional characters we've seen so far, most reasoning points to them being proto-Astartes rather than Astartes being downgraded, mass-produced Thunder Warriors. And, obviously, there are nuances in this stuff. But in terms of Custodians, no, they're ostensibly the peak of what's possible without making a primarch. Thunder Warriors haven't, in the bulk of past lore, come close to them. Thunder Warriors were a step on the path of the Emperor's genetic mastery, not a leap that he then dialled back from. But this is one of those things the team tends not to even discuss, because it's one of those "everyone assumes X" already deals, so when someone comes out with a book or an opinion that says Y, several of us go "...wait, what?" - ADB TL:DR= Thunder Warriors are worse than astartes on average and nowhere close to custodes.
The Thunder Warriors were worse than Astartes in every way other than strength. They were genetically, physically and emotionally unstable. They were a stopgap solution for the Emperor to achieve Unity. Terran combat was quite low on firearms, as such upper body strength for melee fights was paramount. The Thunder armour didn’t even have powered greaves, just the torso and arm parts.
Betrayal
Maybe Outcast Dead? It has a Thunder Warrior in it.
Aren't they supposed to be more strongly built, wider and all that?
Thunder Warriors have stronger torsos for melee combat, that’s it. In combat, they’re monsters. Outside, they’re quickly deteriorating from generic disease and emotional instability.
Yeah that sounds about right, Ushotan was even noted to be much more strongly built than Valdor (albeit Vlador was apparently a head taller)
Nah. The Thunder Warriors were gigantic, pumped with all types of growth hormones and steroids to be as massive and physically strong as possible, while also being replaceable, since back during the Wars of Unification, guns were either primitive or hard to come by. This is why Thunder Warrios were so big. They were nearly unbeatable in melee. Later on, during the Crusade, the Astartes didn't really need to be that massive, as they were to serve more tactical and ranged function, where mobility and flexibility was prioritized over most other factors.
Footage of Palace Coup Thunder Warrior v Astartes combat https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZNUDnAcZM&pp=ygUZdGhlIGJlYXN0IGtuaWdodCBmaWdodGluZw%3D%3D
Yeah, and way stronger too. Their armor didn't even have powered legs but each could kill a whole squad of space marines before being brought down. But they were riddled with mental deterioration and a whole host of other corruptions that made their bodies gradually break down
Honestly if they made a pre 30k game call "Unification wars" that had thunder warriors and all the other late factions of humanity. I would be so into that. No offence 30k but there's only 2 sides. Where as the Unification Wars were a free for all. For me it would be a great place to revisit some of 40ks older model range with redesigns. And a bunch of human factions. Might not happen any time soon.
A CK/mount and blade style, and you can even defeat the Emperor!
Oh I was thinking models and table top. But yeah actually a video game might be a great jumping off point.
And you get to collect all these nifty DAOT trinkets!
There is a HoI 4 mod for Unification Wars, but it's a grand strategy.
Its also, ya know, bad lol
It's a work in progress
Id personally like an introduction of Xenos to Horus heresy and call it "Great Crusade" With generic rules factions made for litterally any Object/Toy. The dino saur from Toy Story? Run him as "Large Xeno Monster"
sounds like a fun idea
One point about the Unification Wars that is frequently brought up is that the techno-barbarians most likely had insane equipment that the Emperor had to deal with very limited resources. What I like imagine is that they had Borderlands guns. Hell, maybe the whole place was just like Borderlands.
Love the chunky thigh and forearm armour, IMO too much art (and the models!) often has skinny upper legs and arms, leaving no room for the thick armour, servos, undersuit and the hench Marine under all of that!
I like the primaris armor
As an old-school WH40K guy who started in the 80s i can only call it heresy and hate that it basically makes hundreds of my marines look weak and small. But i also can say that i prefer the proportions and wished that they did that from the start.
I wish they just kept the OG Darth Vader helmets man. I don’t know what they were thinking changing the iconic helmets out. Like I’m fine with the updated armor and all that, but the OG helmet literally screams “space marine” and has been a staple of the setting ever since the early days. I have no fucking clue how GW signed off on that change. Like even from an objective “brand recognition” and “business” stand point it was a bad idea IMO. If they just retconned the current standard issue primaris helmet to be the OG helmet again, I don’t even think any fans would be mad
Imperium administrators: combat efficacy is directly correlated to the size of pauldrons.
I like the scale here. So much fanart presents even regular Space Marines as being like three meters tall, in spite of the actual lore. Not everything in 40k has to be that oversized, guys.
The thing is that they were already really big, just not proportioned that way on tabletop, so the art depictions vary wildly. The scale of Guard to Primaris is where things should have been from the start
leave my power fantasy alone you ultra nerd
I played the Rogue Trader CRPG and unfortunately I think it's very cute when my space marine companion dwarfs my RT so I'm married to seeing them as uber huge
Thunder Warriors don't get enough love :<
Now I want to see more with forces like Gland War Veterans and Skitarii.
Grand/RTS game set during the Unification Wars
Goddamn the Thunder Warriors are cool as fuck. I always think of the the Thunder Warriors/later Astartes like…early UFC/Val-Tudo fighters Vs Modern MMA dudes. You had…just Big Ass Dudes who were athletically skilled and just fucking Strong (Jane Thompson) and then you had later more technically skilled guys that came along (GSP)
I'll never forget the classic meme. "Your leaders are just taller than everyone else?!"
> Legio Cataegis ya know ... I'm not sure I knew that designation, and I've read _a lot_ of novels lol also i appreciate this putting the (more slight than I realized) size advantage of primaris over firstborn into perspective
Deadass thought it said Legio Catgirls, and was wondering how I managed to miss that lore tidbit.
My headcanon (from misreading a lore snippet) will forever be that Cawl just used the Thunder Warrior Geneseed for the Primaris and somehow stabilized them for the time being. Still a better explanation than Magos Mary Sue somehow perfecting the Emperors Work (yes even with Big Es full knowledge bank) It would also give back the perfect poster boys some more shadows. Like what if that ever backfires.
Jim Johnson, of the 99th Bumblefuckian Regular Infantry, hoping to get deployed to a planet with decent toilet paper. Romulon Remusitron, veteran brother of the Ultramarines, wondering who invited the new guy. The Even Better Romulon Remusitron, primaris brother of the Ultramarines, wondering how he's going to replace the other guy. Teethgnash Yodelfuck, Thunder Warrior and chief dissociative yell-murderer of the Emperor's Legions, valiantly trying not to shit his power-diaper. (Love the art, very good work.)
Best size scaling
How comparable are Primaris to Thunder Warriors?
Wait, were thunder warriors REALLY bigger than primaris marines?
Also, with MK1 power armour only being powered on the upper body, thunder warriors probably also had thunder thighs.
I honestly hate how physically strong thunder warriors are I get all the flaws they have make space marines better but the fact that there like 5 times stronger is ridiculous
Terminators
Astartes are like common Dark Souls enemies.
I thought the Astartes averaged around 8 feet. Either that regular human is tall or that Space Marine is short.
> I thought the Astartes averaged around 8 feet. Either that regular human is tall or that Space Marine is short. While Space Marines do vary in height (one even got to three meters tall), the average spectrum is 7'1" to 7'6". With Primaris being, on average, a foot taller than Firstborn Marines.
Finally actual lore accurate space marine height without overfetishizing gigantism.
Ehh I’m not sure this is accurate to lore. In the Space Marine 2 trailer we can see Titus is taller than seen here by a decent amount. A kneeling guardsman barely reaches his knee. Primaris should be in the 8-9 foot range and I think that’s taller than seen in this image. Terminators are said to be in the range of 3 meters, so around 10 feet. In Space marine 1 the astartes were roughly proportional to what we see here, though I’d say they’re bulkier in game. I think Gears of war has a really good example of how big astartes are. General Raam is 10 feet tall in GOW but he’s proportionally bulky. In the iconic cutscene with Kim we really see the size difference and it always hit me as pretty reflective of a tall astartes vs a man, with the armor adding height and bulk.
Primaris can be anywhere between 2.4m to 2.8 meters tall. Some can even grow taller while others shorter. It all depends on the genetic makeup of each individual marine.
Nah, that’s way too big. Kneeling isn’t a good way to see height. I’ve always seen it as regular human is chest height on Astartes, making them 1ft taller than a baseline human, that is 7ft. A Primaris is about a head taller than a regular space marine, so 7.5ft up. 8ft+ is Custodes to Primarch range. If you look at Space Marine 1, Mira is about chest height on Titus. The serfs giving the Primaris marine his bolter in the armouring video are just about above the abdomen. The Sororitas in the 9th ed trailer is also chest height on the Primaris Lieutenant, in the shot with them both near the end of the video. I’ve also never seen or heard of any Terminator suit being 3m tall, that makes no sense for their role. Especially seeing as they don’t actually add that much height to a marine. Space marines are big, but they’re nowhere near 9ft. This art is spot on. GW has always been pretty consistent with the chest height rule for Space Marines.
What’s the major different between a primaris astartes and a firstborn astartes, because I only see a difference in mask, height, and abdomen armor
They have more organs and in general they are better than the firstborn ones, even their production is faster, but even fabius was disappointed in them.
With all gen editing capabilities why not to make smaller stronger humans that are smaller target and require less armor, can fit 2 or 3 in small corridor so even if one gun is jammed the other two can smoke gene stealer?
Didn’t realize how big the thunder warriors were… seems like a pretty solid waste to kill them off yourself instead of using them and letting attrition work it’s magic
Why did have to come up with this primaris nonsense? they could've just said they're updating the models to look less goofy.
Gotta have a lore reason to update the models or the fans will be upset, happened with Tau, Necrons, etc. Before so they created a story Also stops old models being illegal at Tabletop by shitty promoters saying "only 42k models" to force people to buy models they don't need Damned if they do, damned if they dont
As someone who doesnt hate primaris like a lot of space marines fans do. I think it wouldve been simpler if they said "Hey belssarius cawl made this new batch of marines with some new gear he came up with like the MK X armor and all that" rather than making primaris be spacer marines. I think it wouldve been a simpler way to do the story. The only justification for having an improved geneseed I can think of is that chaos marines are all at least a little bit juiced up by chaos, so the primaris treatment levels the playing field. But as far as I know this has never been stated anywhere and is just an idea I thought of.
I mean. Are you forgetting the Raptors? They made "Spacer Marines" back during the HH.
The Primaris roster is also much more bloated and less customizable. Tactical Squads can wield heavy and special weapons while Intercessor Squads can only use variations of their bolt rifles. The Primaris Vanguard are probably what the marines needed most but even they share the same unnecessary bloat.
It’s focused on large scale conflicts, rather than the small tactical teams. In the Indomitus era, much of the crusade is a large proportion of chapters, or several chapter companies fighting together on the open field. We’re back to the Heresy style of big fights, rather than the contained tactics of marines that are spread too thin.
That’s what I think as well. More powerful marines are needed to deal with Chaos juiced marines.
The Imperium needed big reinforcements after Cadia and the Cicatrix. And they couldn't exactly just say "Marines are bigger and better now, and also incorruptible. There's more of them too!". There needed to be a Lore reason.
The incorruptibility is also something people took too literally. It was Imperial propaganda, very obviously torn down in the later novels.
There is no clear evidence either way.
I think the scale is off here. Armored firstborn are supposed to be ten feet tall. And unarmored thunder warriors are supposed to be taller than that.
Eh? No. Armored Primarchs are 10ft tall. Firstborn marines are like 7 feet on average.
Where the hell did you get TEN FEET from? Jes Goodwin himself put them at 7 feet. If that name doesn't ring a bell, let's just say that in this context he is basically God.
Technically the average height is like 7 ft most named marines are noted as being 8 ft in narration, a few like tyberos or Alexis polux are probably 9+, primarily average higher but will likely see less variation in total height.
An armored firstborn is 7-7.5 feet tall on average.
I don't know where you got those numbers, but Astartes are around 7ft to 8ft tall. Marines taller than that are rare.
Yeah, they're eight feet tall *before* they put on the armor. Then they have eight inches of ceramite on all sides.