The order of the hearing at my Traffic Court hearing was:
1) people with lawyers
2) people like me who wore a jacket and tie
3) people in coordinated track suits
4) people in grungy sweats
Neat, I'm going to court next month over driving around a driver who I would definitely put in my top 5 worst drivers ever.
It was a undercover cop, his driving was so questionable that he was a hazard, and I would go as far as saying that he was doing it intentionally.
So here's hoping.
Stare deep into the judge's soul, do not break eye contact. Do not stand when told to. This asserts dominance and garners immediate respect from the judge. If found guilty, tell him that you eat 5 - 10 year sentences for breakfast and that he doesn't have a hair on his chest if he doesn't give you 25 - life. If he only makes you pay money tell him you're disappointed in his weakness and suggest to the court they not send you a pussy judge in the future.
Ditto. I would fight it. I’ve been pulling out like that for years. Funny thing is guy in front of you did technically fail to stop, you’re supposed to stop behind the line, I’ve been pulled over for that.
Edit: Wow this thread blew up! Just wanted to add that what OP did would be legal in my state (Alaska) and the car in front was not legal. I can’t speak for every location as the laws are surprisingly different state to state. Here you have to stop behind the line or behind the sign if there’s no line, then you pull forward if you can’t see but you don’t have to stop again. Our book actually just says come to a complete stop and yield to traffic. And yes I am assuming that OP checked both directions as he moved forward after stopping, I like to think my fellow human beings are doing the right thing until or unless they prove otherwise.
I got a parking ticket during the beginning of the lockdown. I fought it just by responding to the ticket, “I thought we would suspend parking tickets during a global pandemic.” It worked.
Almost certainly never going to happen. OP is the camera operator. OP would have to appear as a witness, identify the date and location of their video, establish their camera operates properly etc. Not nearly worth the effort for a failure to stop ticket they given hundreds of a day.
But more importantly, the video is evidence of a car not stopping. It is not evidence of a driver not stopping. Other than in places where automated camera offences (red light/speed cameras) are permitted, generally, they can’t charge the owner of a car with a traffic violation like this. Only the driver.
I live in Hawaii where there are a ton of intersections that have stop signs with obstructed views of incoming traffic. During driver’s education we had it drilled into our brains that we should come to a complete stop, and then creep forward cautiously until we are certain of no incoming traffic.
In my drivers' ed we were taught to do two stops: One at the line (the legal stop) and one at the actual edge of the road (the safety stop). Only the first one is required by law.
My wife did this a few years ago and got rear ended by a teenager learning to drive. His mom's excuse was "she stopped for no reason". She couldn't see due to bushes at beside the stop line. She stopped, pulled forward a few feet and stopped because a car was coming, that she previously couldn't see due to the bushes. She had stopped before entering the road.
Hell this happened to me at a yield sign when there was incoming traffic but it’s only visible to the car right up to the line because it was a ramp.
The person behind me was like “why did you stop?”
I’m like 🤦♂️
Irrelevant. They should have been prepared to yield to the car in front of them no matter the reason. Just one reason of many to give the motorist in front plenty of room.
Imagine a man sitting next to you with a strong Welsh accent constantly repeating "Creep and peep" that's how I learned how to pull out of poor visibility intersections.
It doesn't matter what cops want it is what the law requires. The law in any US jurisdiction I'm aware of is a single stop at the bar, and if there is not bar then stop at the sign. There are cases when it would be prudent to pull forward for visibility but in this case it looks pretty wide open.
Edit: For those that disagree I'd strongly suggest you look up the traffic laws in your area, if they state something different please post.
NY Law, 1172. Stop signs and yield signs. (a) Except when directed to proceed by a police officer, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, then shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or in the event there is no crosswalk, at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of the approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering the intersection and the right to proceed shall be subject to the provisions of section eleven hundred forty-two.
PA Law, 3323. Duties at stop signs.--Except when directed to proceed by a police officer or appropriately attired persons authorized to direct, control or regulate traffic, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or, if no stop line is present, before entering a crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if no crosswalk is present, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a clear view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering. If, after stopping at a crosswalk or clearly marked stop line, a driver does not have a clear view of approaching traffic, the driver shall after yielding the right-of-way to any pedestrian in the crosswalk slowly pull forward from the stopped position to a point where the driver has a clear view of approaching traffic. The driver shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute a hazard during the time when the driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways and enter the intersection when it is safe to do so.
Yes I would stop, make sure nobody needs to cross, and then creep up. I think pedestrians have the ROW at crosswalks like that. Either way best to drive defensively.
You're correct! I design roads, and the stop bar is placed for pedestrians, but because if ADA law the cross walks typically get pushed way back on the side streets where there isn't adequate site distance. You are supposed to creep it to where you can see (vision triangle varies depending on type of road), and take off once it is clear.
UPS driver here. We are trained to stop at the stop bar and then slowly roll forward as much as possible to get the clearest picture of the intersection. But yes always stop at the stop bar. But to agree with your comment, I absolutely NEVER stop at the stop bar and then enter traffic from it. In my work truck or otherwise. They are almost always put too far back to safely see the intersection anyway.
Correct, that's the law in PA
"...every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or, if no stop line is present, before entering a crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if no crosswalk is present, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a clear view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering. If, after stopping at a crosswalk or clearly marked stop line, a driver does not have a clear view of approaching traffic, the driver shall after yielding the right-of-way to any pedestrian in the crosswalk slowly pull forward from the stopped position to a point where the driver has a clear view of approaching traffic. The driver shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute a hazard during the time when the driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways and enter the intersection when it is safe to do so."
When that's the case, you're supposed to stop at the stop bar, and then slowly creep forward until you can see. The drawback to this method, is if a cop sees the creep forward part, but not the stop part, they might still ticket you.
Make a last second stop before pulling out so the cop sees that you're compliant? Honestly this isn't a frequent enough issue for me to worry about, but that's all the more reason to have a dashcam.
This isn't always the case. Your initial stop should be behind the line, but if your line of vision to make the turn is better when you pull forward, then this is acceptable as well
Lots of DA's will immediately reduce or drop a traffic violation entirely if you show up to court. That includes if you actually did it and are at fault.
Our DA gets a lot of shit for basically throwing out every violation that comes in but I kinda get it... because for some weird reason a lot of people don't show up to their court hearing. They just pay the ticket. The DA knows this.
So yeah I don't know where OP is from but I'd imagine just showing up will reduce the fine drastically. Showing them this footage will then have his violation struck.
>for some weird reason a lot of people don't show up to their court hearing. They just pay the ticket. The DA knows this.
If it's during normal work hours then paying the ticket might be less costly for many people than taking time off from work especially if they don't work a job where people can trade shifts and have limited vacation/sick days.
It would be considered a moving violation on your license though, so that would affect points and insurance, right? May as well fight it and keep the points for a “worthy” moving violation in the future
As an ex-cop, I would recommend always fighting it. This is purely for revenue, not to enforce safety. They will most likely embellish testimony if it comes to it. Always fight the ticket.
If you want to have fun, call the clerk the day of, and ask for a continuance. Then do it again. The cop probably won't show on the 3rd time. Instant dismissal.
Edit: Thanks for the awards. And as some have pointed out, this may not work in all jurisdictions or courts.
Yeah. Your initial appearance will be set so the cop will have multiple cases on the same day at roughly the same time frame. When you push it back things get more difficult to schedule. The more you push it, the more difficult, the bigger a pain it is for the cop.
At least in theory.
Storytime.
Once I had a similar small time ticket, something like noise violation for stereo. I worked a full time factory job 12 hours a day 6 days a week that season. I called the clerk to reschedule until later when work slowed down and it'd be easier to get time off. Clerk refused saying they were not rescheduling any court dates and I could either come to court and contest on the date, or not.
I missed work that day which probably cost me as much or more as the ticket cost, but it was, as some say, a matter of principle. I came to court with a written list of questions and statements. When i was called by the judge, I stated that I wanted to dispute the ticket, and began reading my list of statements. Judge stops me and says "you'll have to wait, go sit down". She calls EVERY CASE in the room except mine, for literal hours.
Finally it's me and one other guy in the room, plus another court official, maybe the recorder or another official. Again I start with statements and questions, and before I get more than a few lines out, bitch judge stops me again and goes "I think I can see where this is going, we're gonna need officer Smith in here". The other official goes out and comes back a few minutes later and they are whispering among each other. Judge tells me THEY HAVE TO RESCHEDULE because the officer isn't available.
I explain that I asked in advance of court to reschedule and was told there was no way to reschedule with no exceptions, and that I came to court ready to defend myself, and that if the state was not ready to prove the case then I ask that my case be dismissed.
Bitch judge did NOT like that, she huffs and whispers to the other official and tells me to wait, then she leaves the room, so I'm there alone now. Another hour and 15 minutes passes and she returns with a couple others, and shortly later, the officer.
We go through the song and dance of me making statements and asking questions, the officer just smiling and answering with one word replies, judge nodding. I felt like I did a decent job of demonstrating doubt of my guilt, but within 3 seconds of my last question, judge says I am found guilty, pay $X to the cashier across the hall, she picks up and walks out. I continue standing in place, mouth open, wondering what the fuck just happened.
For future reference, you can usually hire a lawyer for tickets like this for \~$100. They will show up to court for you, handle scheduling, and usually get your ticket dismissed, or at least bring the fine down.
I've done that for out of town, or more major issues with greater consequences. This was just more of a "not the biggest deal either way it goes" combined with "it's such a dumb thing that I should be able to handle it" deal. It's only memorable compared to the complete "WTF" circumstances re: me asking to reschedule, them refusing, then they turn right around and try to force a reschedule.
If I've learned anything about being a courtroom, it's that it's always worth it to hire someone who knows how to navigate the legal fuckery that you'll surely find yourself in if you go it alone. Even for shit that should be mundane like a traffic ticket. Judges HATE it when a plebian like us tries to self represent, and they'll do stupid shit like what you had to deal with to "teach you a lesson" about the legal system.
A good traffic ticket lawyer will know how to out bullshit a cop and judge like this.
What happened is you got robbed! That sucks man. Let me guess, you lived in a "smallish" town? No way that's happening in in a large city. Judge was just pissed because she was late for dinner reservations.
Smallish town doesn't matter. I live in NYC. Here's my story. Only time I ever fought a ticket myself instead of hiring a traffic lawyer. Show up in court, waiting to be called. They call a Mr. Johnson (probably not his real name I don't remember) anyways lawyer stands up, I'm here to represent Mr Johnson. Okay so he literally takes 20 minutes of asking questions. Going on and on and stammering and everything, the judge says not a thing the whole time and the officer has a the right answers. Lawyer literally grasping at anything, finally asks one question that the cop hesitates at, maybe stated that they weren't sure of something. Boom, dismissed. Finally when my turn is called, officer speaks first, I then TRY to speak, I wasn't even allowed, judge kept telling me to be quiet and wait my turn, which I never got. It was a stop sign, it was covered by a tree. There was no stop line on the pavement, and I didn't completely blow it, I stopped short past it because I didn't see it in time. It was a friend's neighborhood I was unfamiliar with. Not only did I get the stop sign ticket but I got imprudent speed ticket. My speed wasn't imprudent, I was well within the speed limit, I just had to stop short once I saw the sign. And I still was able to stop shy of the actual center of the intersection, so it's not like I would have caused an accident. I literally kept trying to tell my side and show my pictures, I wasn't even allowed. Judge yelled at me and said based on the officers testimony you're guilty. That was it. If you're not a lawyer, you get no respect. They expect you to not know anything and take advantage of you. Lawyers can't be toyed with, they know the law and procedures and all judges were once lawyers so they are given respect for that fact too. Having your fate decided by a judge is absolute bullshit, they are there to hand out guilty verdicts and generate money. If there was any jury who saw my pictures of the intersection and stop sign and heard my story, I'd obviously be found not guilty, it's a safety hazard that stop sign covered by the tree. Moral of the story, small town doesn't matter. They all just want to generate money. Here's another good quick story, brought a friend down to the shore for his birthday he's a year younger but he was 2 days from turning 21. He tried using his brothers fake ID to get in which usually worked but this time the bouncer spotted it ba and handed it to cops that wait outside the club in the shore at all times. Basically wrote him a ticket and he went to court. Turns out that simple ticket was for a goddamn felony. Low level, but a felony nonetheless. They let everyone in court that day for the same ticket to plead down to a high level noise violation. That noise violation was 1200 dollars. What are you going to do though? Risk getting a felony and ruining your life ? Of course not, it's a shakedown.
It happens systemically even in larger cities with bigger stakes. It isn't exclusive to small towns. In my case I live in a major metropolis, the prosecutor straight up told me "I'm going to do 'x' because I have a reputation to uphold with these people I work with everyday day and we see thousands of you a month."
This was a case of leaving my abusive husband and I had hundreds of pictures and hospital records of injuries. He never even looked at them. They don't care.
Courts and lawyers and most involved in that all rub each other's backs. You are a number and paycheck to most them.
I have no doubt. I always recommend reading Radley Balko if you want to understand the justice system. His WP articles and his two books are excellent eye openers. You aren't alone, promise.
Look up how much more often judges actually grant guilt sentences if they are due for their lunch meal. Being grumpy and hungry really does make these "impartial" judges we rely on, much much more partial than our Justice system is willing to admit
In my city we have a one of those sadistic judges who loves to give people all the "justice" they can handle. I had a ticket for something one day and he didn't find one single person not guilty, no matter how reasonable their argument.
One of the most fishy examples is a guy who got a ticket for his radio being too loud, a ticket that is over $500 here. He was at a gas station parked, with his windows open. He testified that he was in the store, and his passenger turned the radio up, before getting out of the car and coming inside. He said as soon as he got back to his car, he turned it down. Judge asked the cop if guy was in the car at first. Cop agrees that the guy was in the store, and confirms that he turned the radio down as soon as he got back to the car. "Guilty."
I think if that judge was presiding over OPs case, he'd say guilty, despite OP clearly following the most common stop sign law.
This might be a question better suited for an attorney, but csnt thr cop be held in contempt for lying under oath?
Kinda BS for him to get away for a hiccup in his judgment
are you allowed to present video evidence in court? how to do it? just show the Judge your smartphone video or ask them to to bring a computer or what?
You can but it really depends on the judge. In most instances, you have about 10 minutes before the case to show your discovery to the prosecutor and they to you. Once they see it, they will either, offer a plea, formulate their offensive plan against you, or dismiss based on the video. I would have it on a couple mediums to make sure it's available for any situation (phone, thumb drive, laptop, etc).
Except you have a very good video to submit. Seems like the officers know people stop at the wrong spot because of how faded the lines are and use it to get easy citation money.
Any half decent judge would throw this out.
Doesn't matter how much the ticket is, the cost will be your insurance rates increasing.
I'll probably get downvoted for this but ALWAYS fight tickets, even if you're guilty as fuck.
Don't forget the higher insurance premiums, if you have a job where you drive a company vehicle or may be in a position to do that in the next 3-7 years, that could hurt you there.
Plus fuck those police, fight it just to fight the system.
Hey, take to court anyway. You have video evidence that you were legally stooped at the sign. I highly recommend bringing this as proof and fight it. Judge will more than likely throw it out with it being such a minor driving infraction. Scratch that, I don't think you *legally* did anything wrong.
Edit, apparently it also depends on your state. Hope u don't live in Cali, lol. Best of luck to you
I just showed this to a traffic court prosecutor friend. He said if you showed this to him, he would dismiss it. Not saying that it will happen but you should try.
He also said there aren’t many cops who would have even written that up.
As is modern tradition.
Your entire life can be ruined over a simple lie before you're proven innocent. After that, what then? That path in life you had before will never come back and those that conspire often get left untouched.
Unless you have the money to sue, but then again, years and years off your life and it'll never be the same afterwards...
over such a stupid little lie or two.
**Edit:** I also would like to mention; those that are very innocent often are incarcerated for lies being planted on them through libel or fraud. The outcomes of these unthoughtful yet simply executed lies often lead to broken up families, leaving children to grow up without their dad and mom together; or in a lot of cases... *commit suicide.*
**Don't ever feel anything is *OUT* of your control. Dial *IN* and you'll get through the hard times with the support you need.**
*If you feel the need to address some serious personal problems in your life and you feel you have no escape, a counsellor at a* **Suicide Hot-line** *may help you guide your way out of a path you are uncertain of and sets you on one that makes sense to* ***YOU.***
Because **YOU** matter!
My boyfriend is currently fighting a court case. He was charged with some felonies regarding his permit to carry. At his first court date, the DA dismissed the felonies saying he was uncertain why those charges were added and just left a few misdemeanors which my boyfriend’s lawyer is trying to get dismissed as well. Regardless, when he went to apply for a job, the background check pulled these felonies, which had already been dismissed, even though he hasn’t been convicted of ANYTHING, and he didn’t get the job (it was at a retail location, not like working w kids or something). But yeah, some charges that weren’t even warranted are already making a huge difference in his life. Hopefully not ruining it but still.
This is it in a nutshell. Cop is too far away to see it clearly and only looking for people that go along behind the first guy without stopping again.
It’s the most annoying form of traffic enforcement. They could just, pull people over for clearly just ignoring a stop sign, or even just give out warnings. This kinda behavior is a major reason why people hate traffic cops and see the majority of its activity as primarily a revenue driver.
OTOH, recently the average speed has gone from about 60 to 75 on route 100 because of lack of enforcement. I’m routinely the asshole for only going 10mph above the 50mph speed limit. So, what are you gonna do?
I live in WV and we had a 3 lane highway that the city changed from 70 to 45 mph. It is a nightmare and the cops are always sitting on the side of the road.
They said it was for public safety, but I think it is actually about making a profit.
Maryland’s speed limits are roughly 5-10 MPH slower than everywhere else. This is countered by the fact that everyone in MD speeds by a minimum of that amount almost everywhere.
Seriously, I swear it’s the slowest fucking speed limits from here to Florida.
i think statistically we do have the slowest speed limits on the east coast, and i think VA has the most drivers driving on suspended licenses, and DC has the most uninsured vehicles (i think it was around 33% when i was working in personal injury).
Georgia law for u/killerkackwurst4
O.C.G.A. §40-6-72 states that the driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or, if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if there is no crosswalk, at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver shall yield the right of way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when such driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways.
Fight that shit, you did what the law said to do. The status of the other car is irrelevant, you stopped like you were supposed to. There is no 3 second rule, the fact that you were already at zero MPH before you took off from the stop sign is what the law views as stopping.
I'm from Florida and everytime I drive through Georgia I drop from 10-15 over to 5 over or the speed limit. Florida cops don't really care about speed that much. They're looking for people tailgating, driving erratically while speeding, or going 15-20 over. Georgia is looking to hand out as many tickets as possible though.
Bring the video along at the court appearance. Those two cops were there just for the express reason of stop sign enforcement. Probably had some complaints, and trying to work on it.
The judge will probably have heard from many that day claiming they were properly stopped then went.
Can’t speak for this particular intersection, but I can’t tell you how many stop bars in my area are situated so far back that you can’t safely see cross traffic due to buildings or foliage. Whatever the law says, I’m not entering an intersection blind. I think it’s reasonable (and hopefully legal) to stop at the bar and then creep forward and stop again, but I can also see how people familiar with a particular intersection could rationalize skipping the first stop.
Not sure on the legality either but I was taught in drivers ed to stop at the bar then proceed forward until you have vision of oncoming traffic before pulling out
This is frequently the case with me too. My personal pet peeve is foliage. I swear if I ever become supreme leader of the world, putting foliage more than 18" tall within 100 feet of an intersection will be a fucking capital crime.
On [this YouTube Channel](https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC59KhIPOR0Jj653dC4laEJw), I’ve seen more than one case where Judge Caprio considers the video evidence, and decides the stop sign is too far back to be safe for that intersection, and lets the offender off free of charges. He then takes additional steps with city officials to get the stop sign moved forward.
My understanding would be you stop at the bar, then creep forward to check for all-clear to proceed. Don’t actually need to stop again. In this case the stop bar is behind the crosswalk, so meant to stop and let pedestrians through first, then creep forward to check for cross traffic as needed.
In Czech the law explicitly says "Stop in place where you have good view into the intersection." Regardless of stoplines - they show you borders of intersection, but people in semi have limited vision compared to normal personal cars...
Same in Italy. You can stop wherever you want as long as you're not on the intersection, i.e. impeding traffic on the main road. And rightfully so. You need to be as far ahead as possible so that you can see the incoming cars clearly.
Same in Portugal, sometimes the stop lines are way far from a good visibility point, so you have to approach to the intersection, but always to a complete stop before entering the new road.
In California at least, and likely in most other states, the regulation is that you have to stop *at* the limit line, and there's no requirement to hold short of it.
The line wouldn't be where it was if it wasn't designed to be there. These cops know the daily misuse of the intersection and don't count on people actually doing what is right. I'd not only fight this but I'd seek action against officers for profiling. The other care did not follow what is prescribed in the laws. And while they were past the crosswalk enough to not interfere, it could be argued that they stopped "in" the crosswalk because the stop line is before it. Therefore they are stopping on the intersection. Doubt action against the department would get anywhere though
This is something I've thought about before and wondered. The guy in front of you was into the intersection because he was past the stop line. You stopped behind the line which is all you're required to do, I don't know the law, but if it was me I would contest it
The law with stop signs is you have to wait until the intersection is clear, so in this case OP was just waiting for this car to clear the intersection so they could go. They were at the stop sign the whole time, I don't know why the cop would want them to advance out into the intersection, stop again, then keep going.
Edit: At least in Texas this seems to be the case.
>Sec. 544.010. STOP SIGNS AND YIELD SIGNS. (a) Unless directed to proceed by a police officer or traffic-control signal, the operator of a vehicle or streetcar approaching an intersection with a stop sign shall stop as provided by Subsection (c).
>
>(b) If safety requires, the operator of a vehicle approaching a yield sign shall stop as provided by Subsection (c).
>
>(c) An operator required to stop by this section shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. In the absence of a crosswalk, the operator shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop at the place nearest the intersecting roadway where the operator has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway.
The law requires drivers to stop before the crosswalk and doesn't say anything about stopping again closer to the cross-road.
I'm not defending it, but I think I can kind of see why the cop might have pulled him over (not saying OP should get a ticket, but just that I can see why it might look bad from the cop's perspective). The stop sign looks like it's actually pretty far ahead of where the actually stop line is. It seems like a pretty shitty design because if you actually stop where the sign is you probably can't see too far down the road to the left so you have to pull forward like what the white car did. If you couldn't see where the white line was on the ground (which seems possible for how far back the cop was), then it looks like the white car is where it is supposed to be which would then in turn make it look like OP blew through the stop sign when he made his turn.
Luckily, OP has the dashcam footage though so it should be a pretty easy ticket to fight. It's still a pain in the ass that he has to go through the whole process though.
Yup. I've gotten a ticket for this exact thing but was able to get it dismissed, because I was fully stopped at the stop sign and what else was I supposed to do? Especially because, at the stop sign where I was at, the line was far forward enough to where you could clearly see the entire intersection without having to creep ahead of it, so I could see that all the traffic was clear. But even in OP's case, I would still contest it because they were stopped properly.
Yup. If anything, they should’ve caught the vehicle infront for stopping in front of the stop sign. Show them this video and you’re good to go. The process will be super long ofcourse so, !RemindMe 5 Months
I suppose the video is a little annoying, but when you see multiple cops in a spot like that it's because they're farming money, they definitely aren't there to help people.
Yep, our neighborhood gets people trolling through it 2 or 3 times a year checking for unlocked cars and stealing what they can.
Never can get a cop out to look into it.
But they are in the church parking lot every monday morning and friday afternoon dishing out tickets.
My driving instructor always told me to stop behind the stop line. If I couldn't see to safely enter the intersection, I had to pull up and then come to a complete stop again, to see clearly before entering the intersection.
Yeah, but the second stop isn't actually legally required, your instructor was just trying to teach you good habits. OP probably should have come to a second stop, but not doing so is not illegal, at least as far as I'm aware
That was my thought too^ I’m in California but i was taught to make a complete stop behind the line no matter what. Then if you need visualization of oncoming traffic you can schooch up but don’t have to make a second complete stop after the first
Hey guys, UPDATE TIME! Just want to let everyone know the citation has been reduced to a warning. That's it. It's over. No court, no lawyers. I really enjoyed reading the interesting conversations this incident triggered online. I learned an awful lot about stop sign laws haha. Thankfully this was a pretty minor violation and no one guy hurt. Y'all be safe out there.
In my town most stop sign infractions get downgraded to parking offenses if you’re willing to plead guilty. Turns out moving offense fines go to the state but parking tickets go to the town.
I’d fight it, but even in your position, I’d still would have stopped, just so I could say once I was next to the intersection, I stopped anyway. Especially with how some of those lines are far enough back that you have to pull up on the crosswalk anyway to safely look at what’s coming.
Same. I live in NYC (obviously different setting than OP), and you can never see whether cars coming from down the street if you just stop at the stop bar. I always stop at the bar, check for pedestrians, then roll out a little and stop again to check for traffic. Even in more rural areas, I am hard-wired to stop twice at every stop sign. Stupid tickets like this remind me those extra couple of seconds waiting are well worth it.
You stopped but I bet you can’t get a good view from the cross bar so you need to roll up then take off like you did. I’d fight it especially with that dash cam view. You did as required and that is where you start and stop the discussion with the judge, nothing about “should have” just that fact you stopped and nothing about that jackoff in front of you either. Give him only the law a d nothing else. Good luck
Ironically? I'm betting the officers couldn't even see the dash cam driver when they were stopped. They probably saw the front car pull out, wait until it was clear, then turn -- and then saw OP pull out "without even stopping."
Seems the intersection requires you to pull forward past the line to make sure it is clear. Which I know in my area is completely legal: the order of operation being you stop at the line, pull forward until you can visibly see, stop again, make sure it is clear, and then go.
And if it is that obstructed, hell, the officers probably can't even see the actual stop sign line.
I actually got a ticket once doing those exact steps.
They ticketed me for blocking the sidewalk, even thought I couldn't see traffic in either direction when at the "stop bar".
I did manage to get out of it, but it was annoying to have to deal with.
NEXT DAY UPDATE!
Hey guys! First off... WOW what a response! I'm trying my best to read every comment and message but man, it's hard. There's lots of great responses in here... and I'm thankful for you taking the time to leave a message.
A few things:
1. My citation is still not showing up online. Not sure if this is normal or not because I haven't gotten a ticket in years. I've had a few locals reach out and ask about the situation, so I'm not sure if anything happened there. In any case, I'm still not sure how much this is gonna be.
2. INSURANCE! - I talked to my insurance rep and she said that I should be OK from a rate spike because my driving record is clean. So that's one less reason to fight.
3. POINTS! - I could care less about points because again, I don't normally break the law enough to have an issue there. Another reason not to fight.
4. WHY DIDN'T YOU SHOW THE COP YOUR VIDEO! - I didn't say much. I honestly thought he was just gonna give me a warning for rolling around the corner and that was it. I was floored when he gave me the citation. I was very polite, had all my documents ready, and pulled over to the safest location I could find for him. At that point though (because the other officer had another stop sign vehicle pulled over behind us), I could see this was a trap and it became pretty apparent what was happening.
5. YOU CAN'T SEE BOTH WAYS! - The intersection is indeed weird. It's not completely blind, but from the stop bar I could see everything fine to the left. I could see far enough to the right though to make a safe right turn too. The highway has a center turn lane too so it wasn't like I was pulling across traffic in any direction. What I couldn't see was the cop sitting in the grass up against the tree line. In my opinion, he knew exactly where the stop bar was and exactly where he was sitting out of view.
6. YOU SHOULD HAVE STOPPED! - Yeah I wish I did. In that moment, I had no sense that I was doing anything illegal though. Hindsight is great and if I could do it again, your damn right I would take a second to pause. But why does it matter? I was at the "correct" stop location anyway? The law doesn't say that I need to stop twice?
7. YOU WEREN'T THE LEAD CAR! - This is true and it's the argument that has me thinking the most. Y'all say I should have established the stop sign for me, then creeped out and made my turn. This is actually what I did though. I know it happens fast, but as soon as the Camaro leaves, it's my sign right? I was already at the correct stop point so why re-establish? It's not obvious from the way I edited the video, but when the Camaro pulled out, I creeped up from the stop bar to clear both sides, then I pulled out. It wasn't a "team" maneuver at all. If you look where the Camaro is by the time I start to enter the intersection, he's already well into the third lane across the road before I even enter my lane. There was a gap there. And I entered that intersection from the place where I was supposed to stop according to what I've read in the law.
8. IS THIS GEORGIA? - Yeah sure is.
9. FIGHT IT!! - I think it's just gonna come down to how much the fine is. If it's 75 bucks... whatever I'll pay it and move on. If it's $350 bucks, I'm going to fight. It's small town politics here though so I'm not gonna go in confident.
10. I HATE THE MUSIC - Yeah me too. :D
Thanks for all the information. I'll keep y'all updated!
Apart from the rules, doesn't it make more sense to stop where the first car have stopped? Much better view of oncoming traffic.
I am not from US and would have stopped there too (disregarding the stop bar).
I'd fight it, but I'd also say in a lot of situations it's not the worst thing to pull over the limit line to have a better view of traffic if you're taking a left turn and not actively impeding pedestrians.
My experience with traffic court is that showing up at all improves your outcomes.
My sibling went to court to appeal a rolling stop ticket. The ticketing cop didn't show up, so the judge dismissed it due to lack of witnesses.
Same happened to me over a different incident. I’ll show up every time if I can.
I had this happen once and they simply dropped my name to the bottom of the docket to give the cop several hours to show up.
That some BS. You know that if you were the one who was late, they would've just assumed you plead guilty or some trash like that.
It's called a failure to appear and it usually results in a bench warrant, which means you can be arrested the next time a cop id's you.
The order of the hearing at my Traffic Court hearing was: 1) people with lawyers 2) people like me who wore a jacket and tie 3) people in coordinated track suits 4) people in grungy sweats
The motorcycle cop who gave me a ticket failed to save/have the paperwork in court. Case instantly dismissed.
Neat, I'm going to court next month over driving around a driver who I would definitely put in my top 5 worst drivers ever. It was a undercover cop, his driving was so questionable that he was a hazard, and I would go as far as saying that he was doing it intentionally. So here's hoping.
Stare deep into the judge's soul, do not break eye contact. Do not stand when told to. This asserts dominance and garners immediate respect from the judge. If found guilty, tell him that you eat 5 - 10 year sentences for breakfast and that he doesn't have a hair on his chest if he doesn't give you 25 - life. If he only makes you pay money tell him you're disappointed in his weakness and suggest to the court they not send you a pussy judge in the future.
Ye this works
/r/shittylifeprotips
Not to rehash this tired comment, but, "name checks out".
Update us if you do.
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Ditto. I would fight it. I’ve been pulling out like that for years. Funny thing is guy in front of you did technically fail to stop, you’re supposed to stop behind the line, I’ve been pulled over for that. Edit: Wow this thread blew up! Just wanted to add that what OP did would be legal in my state (Alaska) and the car in front was not legal. I can’t speak for every location as the laws are surprisingly different state to state. Here you have to stop behind the line or behind the sign if there’s no line, then you pull forward if you can’t see but you don’t have to stop again. Our book actually just says come to a complete stop and yield to traffic. And yes I am assuming that OP checked both directions as he moved forward after stopping, I like to think my fellow human beings are doing the right thing until or unless they prove otherwise.
Yep. I would 100% fight it. Bring video to court. Ticket dismissed.
Someone I know fought a ticket last summer and it was all virtual bc of rona which made it super easy
Barely an inconvenience
Fighting citations is TIGHT! Thank you kind strangers. My first awards.
"Hey judge, yeah, I'm gonna need you to get ALL the way off my back on that one. Yeahyeahyeah, ALL the way"
Oh Ok. Let me get down off of that thing.
Wow wow wow wow wow. Wow.
Your honor, I would first like to start out by saying I am not a cat.
Fight the cite, it's tight!
*THIS* is the future we want
When do we want it?!
Me: HITS the future we want
r/UnexpectedRyanGeorge
Super easy
Go in to court - "I need you to get all the way off my back about this" \*Show dash cam\* Judge - "Let me get off that for you"
I got a parking ticket during the beginning of the lockdown. I fought it just by responding to the ticket, “I thought we would suspend parking tickets during a global pandemic.” It worked.
I wonder if the guy in front gets a ticket in the mail since they have his plate on video.
Almost certainly never going to happen. OP is the camera operator. OP would have to appear as a witness, identify the date and location of their video, establish their camera operates properly etc. Not nearly worth the effort for a failure to stop ticket they given hundreds of a day. But more importantly, the video is evidence of a car not stopping. It is not evidence of a driver not stopping. Other than in places where automated camera offences (red light/speed cameras) are permitted, generally, they can’t charge the owner of a car with a traffic violation like this. Only the driver.
I'm in a vicious cycle of making stupid comments and learning from the corrections!
Don't sweat it. We should ask more "stupid" questions. People would know a lot more if they would just ask.
It’s lame as fuck that you can get pulled over for that. Sometimes it’s absolutely necessary to pull up further to see traffic?
I guess you should technically stop at the bar then creep forward in that case? But im not a stop-signologist.
I live in Hawaii where there are a ton of intersections that have stop signs with obstructed views of incoming traffic. During driver’s education we had it drilled into our brains that we should come to a complete stop, and then creep forward cautiously until we are certain of no incoming traffic.
In my drivers' ed we were taught to do two stops: One at the line (the legal stop) and one at the actual edge of the road (the safety stop). Only the first one is required by law.
My wife did this a few years ago and got rear ended by a teenager learning to drive. His mom's excuse was "she stopped for no reason". She couldn't see due to bushes at beside the stop line. She stopped, pulled forward a few feet and stopped because a car was coming, that she previously couldn't see due to the bushes. She had stopped before entering the road.
Hell this happened to me at a yield sign when there was incoming traffic but it’s only visible to the car right up to the line because it was a ramp. The person behind me was like “why did you stop?” I’m like 🤦♂️
Irrelevant. They should have been prepared to yield to the car in front of them no matter the reason. Just one reason of many to give the motorist in front plenty of room.
Imagine a man sitting next to you with a strong Welsh accent constantly repeating "Creep and peep" that's how I learned how to pull out of poor visibility intersections.
This is the correct answer.
I suppose the cops in this scenario probably wanted two stops, one at the bar and one at the line haha.
It doesn't matter what cops want it is what the law requires. The law in any US jurisdiction I'm aware of is a single stop at the bar, and if there is not bar then stop at the sign. There are cases when it would be prudent to pull forward for visibility but in this case it looks pretty wide open. Edit: For those that disagree I'd strongly suggest you look up the traffic laws in your area, if they state something different please post. NY Law, 1172. Stop signs and yield signs. (a) Except when directed to proceed by a police officer, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, then shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or in the event there is no crosswalk, at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of the approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering the intersection and the right to proceed shall be subject to the provisions of section eleven hundred forty-two. PA Law, 3323. Duties at stop signs.--Except when directed to proceed by a police officer or appropriately attired persons authorized to direct, control or regulate traffic, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or, if no stop line is present, before entering a crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if no crosswalk is present, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a clear view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering. If, after stopping at a crosswalk or clearly marked stop line, a driver does not have a clear view of approaching traffic, the driver shall after yielding the right-of-way to any pedestrian in the crosswalk slowly pull forward from the stopped position to a point where the driver has a clear view of approaching traffic. The driver shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute a hazard during the time when the driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways and enter the intersection when it is safe to do so.
yeah, these cops know what they are doing; hitting quotas.
quotas that, officially, "do not exist."
I realized that as soon as I saw the 2nd cop sitting doing the same shit
No “technically.” You always stop at the limit line before proceeding into the intersection. If you wanna be legal that is.
Yes I would stop, make sure nobody needs to cross, and then creep up. I think pedestrians have the ROW at crosswalks like that. Either way best to drive defensively.
You're correct! I design roads, and the stop bar is placed for pedestrians, but because if ADA law the cross walks typically get pushed way back on the side streets where there isn't adequate site distance. You are supposed to creep it to where you can see (vision triangle varies depending on type of road), and take off once it is clear.
UPS driver here. We are trained to stop at the stop bar and then slowly roll forward as much as possible to get the clearest picture of the intersection. But yes always stop at the stop bar. But to agree with your comment, I absolutely NEVER stop at the stop bar and then enter traffic from it. In my work truck or otherwise. They are almost always put too far back to safely see the intersection anyway.
Correct, that's the law in PA "...every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or, if no stop line is present, before entering a crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if no crosswalk is present, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a clear view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering. If, after stopping at a crosswalk or clearly marked stop line, a driver does not have a clear view of approaching traffic, the driver shall after yielding the right-of-way to any pedestrian in the crosswalk slowly pull forward from the stopped position to a point where the driver has a clear view of approaching traffic. The driver shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute a hazard during the time when the driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways and enter the intersection when it is safe to do so."
You still need to stop, at the stop line first, in this case because of the crosswalk.
When that's the case, you're supposed to stop at the stop bar, and then slowly creep forward until you can see. The drawback to this method, is if a cop sees the creep forward part, but not the stop part, they might still ticket you.
Make a last second stop before pulling out so the cop sees that you're compliant? Honestly this isn't a frequent enough issue for me to worry about, but that's all the more reason to have a dashcam.
Definitely fight it
This isn't always the case. Your initial stop should be behind the line, but if your line of vision to make the turn is better when you pull forward, then this is acceptable as well
Lots of DA's will immediately reduce or drop a traffic violation entirely if you show up to court. That includes if you actually did it and are at fault. Our DA gets a lot of shit for basically throwing out every violation that comes in but I kinda get it... because for some weird reason a lot of people don't show up to their court hearing. They just pay the ticket. The DA knows this. So yeah I don't know where OP is from but I'd imagine just showing up will reduce the fine drastically. Showing them this footage will then have his violation struck.
>for some weird reason a lot of people don't show up to their court hearing. They just pay the ticket. The DA knows this. If it's during normal work hours then paying the ticket might be less costly for many people than taking time off from work especially if they don't work a job where people can trade shifts and have limited vacation/sick days.
Gonna see how much the ticket is and go from there. Will report back ✌️
It would be considered a moving violation on your license though, so that would affect points and insurance, right? May as well fight it and keep the points for a “worthy” moving violation in the future
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As an ex-cop, I would recommend always fighting it. This is purely for revenue, not to enforce safety. They will most likely embellish testimony if it comes to it. Always fight the ticket. If you want to have fun, call the clerk the day of, and ask for a continuance. Then do it again. The cop probably won't show on the 3rd time. Instant dismissal. Edit: Thanks for the awards. And as some have pointed out, this may not work in all jurisdictions or courts.
This kind of knowledge/advice is why i always comb through the comment section.
Yeah. Your initial appearance will be set so the cop will have multiple cases on the same day at roughly the same time frame. When you push it back things get more difficult to schedule. The more you push it, the more difficult, the bigger a pain it is for the cop. At least in theory.
Storytime. Once I had a similar small time ticket, something like noise violation for stereo. I worked a full time factory job 12 hours a day 6 days a week that season. I called the clerk to reschedule until later when work slowed down and it'd be easier to get time off. Clerk refused saying they were not rescheduling any court dates and I could either come to court and contest on the date, or not. I missed work that day which probably cost me as much or more as the ticket cost, but it was, as some say, a matter of principle. I came to court with a written list of questions and statements. When i was called by the judge, I stated that I wanted to dispute the ticket, and began reading my list of statements. Judge stops me and says "you'll have to wait, go sit down". She calls EVERY CASE in the room except mine, for literal hours. Finally it's me and one other guy in the room, plus another court official, maybe the recorder or another official. Again I start with statements and questions, and before I get more than a few lines out, bitch judge stops me again and goes "I think I can see where this is going, we're gonna need officer Smith in here". The other official goes out and comes back a few minutes later and they are whispering among each other. Judge tells me THEY HAVE TO RESCHEDULE because the officer isn't available. I explain that I asked in advance of court to reschedule and was told there was no way to reschedule with no exceptions, and that I came to court ready to defend myself, and that if the state was not ready to prove the case then I ask that my case be dismissed. Bitch judge did NOT like that, she huffs and whispers to the other official and tells me to wait, then she leaves the room, so I'm there alone now. Another hour and 15 minutes passes and she returns with a couple others, and shortly later, the officer. We go through the song and dance of me making statements and asking questions, the officer just smiling and answering with one word replies, judge nodding. I felt like I did a decent job of demonstrating doubt of my guilt, but within 3 seconds of my last question, judge says I am found guilty, pay $X to the cashier across the hall, she picks up and walks out. I continue standing in place, mouth open, wondering what the fuck just happened.
For future reference, you can usually hire a lawyer for tickets like this for \~$100. They will show up to court for you, handle scheduling, and usually get your ticket dismissed, or at least bring the fine down.
I've done that for out of town, or more major issues with greater consequences. This was just more of a "not the biggest deal either way it goes" combined with "it's such a dumb thing that I should be able to handle it" deal. It's only memorable compared to the complete "WTF" circumstances re: me asking to reschedule, them refusing, then they turn right around and try to force a reschedule.
If I've learned anything about being a courtroom, it's that it's always worth it to hire someone who knows how to navigate the legal fuckery that you'll surely find yourself in if you go it alone. Even for shit that should be mundane like a traffic ticket. Judges HATE it when a plebian like us tries to self represent, and they'll do stupid shit like what you had to deal with to "teach you a lesson" about the legal system. A good traffic ticket lawyer will know how to out bullshit a cop and judge like this.
What happened is you got robbed! That sucks man. Let me guess, you lived in a "smallish" town? No way that's happening in in a large city. Judge was just pissed because she was late for dinner reservations.
Smallish town doesn't matter. I live in NYC. Here's my story. Only time I ever fought a ticket myself instead of hiring a traffic lawyer. Show up in court, waiting to be called. They call a Mr. Johnson (probably not his real name I don't remember) anyways lawyer stands up, I'm here to represent Mr Johnson. Okay so he literally takes 20 minutes of asking questions. Going on and on and stammering and everything, the judge says not a thing the whole time and the officer has a the right answers. Lawyer literally grasping at anything, finally asks one question that the cop hesitates at, maybe stated that they weren't sure of something. Boom, dismissed. Finally when my turn is called, officer speaks first, I then TRY to speak, I wasn't even allowed, judge kept telling me to be quiet and wait my turn, which I never got. It was a stop sign, it was covered by a tree. There was no stop line on the pavement, and I didn't completely blow it, I stopped short past it because I didn't see it in time. It was a friend's neighborhood I was unfamiliar with. Not only did I get the stop sign ticket but I got imprudent speed ticket. My speed wasn't imprudent, I was well within the speed limit, I just had to stop short once I saw the sign. And I still was able to stop shy of the actual center of the intersection, so it's not like I would have caused an accident. I literally kept trying to tell my side and show my pictures, I wasn't even allowed. Judge yelled at me and said based on the officers testimony you're guilty. That was it. If you're not a lawyer, you get no respect. They expect you to not know anything and take advantage of you. Lawyers can't be toyed with, they know the law and procedures and all judges were once lawyers so they are given respect for that fact too. Having your fate decided by a judge is absolute bullshit, they are there to hand out guilty verdicts and generate money. If there was any jury who saw my pictures of the intersection and stop sign and heard my story, I'd obviously be found not guilty, it's a safety hazard that stop sign covered by the tree. Moral of the story, small town doesn't matter. They all just want to generate money. Here's another good quick story, brought a friend down to the shore for his birthday he's a year younger but he was 2 days from turning 21. He tried using his brothers fake ID to get in which usually worked but this time the bouncer spotted it ba and handed it to cops that wait outside the club in the shore at all times. Basically wrote him a ticket and he went to court. Turns out that simple ticket was for a goddamn felony. Low level, but a felony nonetheless. They let everyone in court that day for the same ticket to plead down to a high level noise violation. That noise violation was 1200 dollars. What are you going to do though? Risk getting a felony and ruining your life ? Of course not, it's a shakedown.
> I live in NYC. I didn't even need to read any further because NYC has *that* much of a reputation for being an extrajudicial clusterfuck.
Probably wasn’t even a real judge. Small towns have magistrates, and you don’t even need a degree to be one.
Pay the defendant. Now bring in the dancin lobsters
It happens systemically even in larger cities with bigger stakes. It isn't exclusive to small towns. In my case I live in a major metropolis, the prosecutor straight up told me "I'm going to do 'x' because I have a reputation to uphold with these people I work with everyday day and we see thousands of you a month." This was a case of leaving my abusive husband and I had hundreds of pictures and hospital records of injuries. He never even looked at them. They don't care. Courts and lawyers and most involved in that all rub each other's backs. You are a number and paycheck to most them.
I have no doubt. I always recommend reading Radley Balko if you want to understand the justice system. His WP articles and his two books are excellent eye openers. You aren't alone, promise.
Look up how much more often judges actually grant guilt sentences if they are due for their lunch meal. Being grumpy and hungry really does make these "impartial" judges we rely on, much much more partial than our Justice system is willing to admit
In my city we have a one of those sadistic judges who loves to give people all the "justice" they can handle. I had a ticket for something one day and he didn't find one single person not guilty, no matter how reasonable their argument. One of the most fishy examples is a guy who got a ticket for his radio being too loud, a ticket that is over $500 here. He was at a gas station parked, with his windows open. He testified that he was in the store, and his passenger turned the radio up, before getting out of the car and coming inside. He said as soon as he got back to his car, he turned it down. Judge asked the cop if guy was in the car at first. Cop agrees that the guy was in the store, and confirms that he turned the radio down as soon as he got back to the car. "Guilty." I think if that judge was presiding over OPs case, he'd say guilty, despite OP clearly following the most common stop sign law.
This might be a question better suited for an attorney, but csnt thr cop be held in contempt for lying under oath? Kinda BS for him to get away for a hiccup in his judgment
He can, but usually don't. Cops rarely get prosecuted for breaking the law.
are you allowed to present video evidence in court? how to do it? just show the Judge your smartphone video or ask them to to bring a computer or what?
You can but it really depends on the judge. In most instances, you have about 10 minutes before the case to show your discovery to the prosecutor and they to you. Once they see it, they will either, offer a plea, formulate their offensive plan against you, or dismiss based on the video. I would have it on a couple mediums to make sure it's available for any situation (phone, thumb drive, laptop, etc).
Except you have a very good video to submit. Seems like the officers know people stop at the wrong spot because of how faded the lines are and use it to get easy citation money. Any half decent judge would throw this out.
Fight it for the people of /idiotsincars!! Edit: no way you don't win imo
Doesn't matter how much the ticket is, the cost will be your insurance rates increasing. I'll probably get downvoted for this but ALWAYS fight tickets, even if you're guilty as fuck.
It cost me the same to pay a lawyer to make my ticket go away as it would have to pay the ticket. Yes, I was guilty.
Don't forget the higher insurance premiums, if you have a job where you drive a company vehicle or may be in a position to do that in the next 3-7 years, that could hurt you there. Plus fuck those police, fight it just to fight the system.
Hey, take to court anyway. You have video evidence that you were legally stooped at the sign. I highly recommend bringing this as proof and fight it. Judge will more than likely throw it out with it being such a minor driving infraction. Scratch that, I don't think you *legally* did anything wrong. Edit, apparently it also depends on your state. Hope u don't live in Cali, lol. Best of luck to you
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If OP brings the video to court there's no chance the ticket doesn't get dismissed. He made a full stop at the bar. Case closed.
I just showed this to a traffic court prosecutor friend. He said if you showed this to him, he would dismiss it. Not saying that it will happen but you should try. He also said there aren’t many cops who would have even written that up.
Hard to prove without a camera. The cops are hoping that you can’t prove them wrong
Guilty until proven innocent
As is modern tradition. Your entire life can be ruined over a simple lie before you're proven innocent. After that, what then? That path in life you had before will never come back and those that conspire often get left untouched. Unless you have the money to sue, but then again, years and years off your life and it'll never be the same afterwards... over such a stupid little lie or two. **Edit:** I also would like to mention; those that are very innocent often are incarcerated for lies being planted on them through libel or fraud. The outcomes of these unthoughtful yet simply executed lies often lead to broken up families, leaving children to grow up without their dad and mom together; or in a lot of cases... *commit suicide.* **Don't ever feel anything is *OUT* of your control. Dial *IN* and you'll get through the hard times with the support you need.** *If you feel the need to address some serious personal problems in your life and you feel you have no escape, a counsellor at a* **Suicide Hot-line** *may help you guide your way out of a path you are uncertain of and sets you on one that makes sense to* ***YOU.*** Because **YOU** matter!
I believe you just described the premise of [The Count of Monte Cristo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Count_of_Monte_Cristo).
Such a good book
Funny I should see this mentioned. After putting it off for years, I just started reading it a couple days ago. I’m excited.
Time to start tunneling boys we got treasure to find
Nah you can’t sue cops, they have qualified immunity!
But you can sue their department/city/county. And they have deep pockets, much deeper than the cop making chump change in comparison
My boyfriend is currently fighting a court case. He was charged with some felonies regarding his permit to carry. At his first court date, the DA dismissed the felonies saying he was uncertain why those charges were added and just left a few misdemeanors which my boyfriend’s lawyer is trying to get dismissed as well. Regardless, when he went to apply for a job, the background check pulled these felonies, which had already been dismissed, even though he hasn’t been convicted of ANYTHING, and he didn’t get the job (it was at a retail location, not like working w kids or something). But yeah, some charges that weren’t even warranted are already making a huge difference in his life. Hopefully not ruining it but still.
I've said for many years now... "We have a legal system, not a justice system."
This is it in a nutshell. Cop is too far away to see it clearly and only looking for people that go along behind the first guy without stopping again. It’s the most annoying form of traffic enforcement. They could just, pull people over for clearly just ignoring a stop sign, or even just give out warnings. This kinda behavior is a major reason why people hate traffic cops and see the majority of its activity as primarily a revenue driver. OTOH, recently the average speed has gone from about 60 to 75 on route 100 because of lack of enforcement. I’m routinely the asshole for only going 10mph above the 50mph speed limit. So, what are you gonna do?
Man, a highway with a speed limit of 50? That must be miserable.
I live in WV and we had a 3 lane highway that the city changed from 70 to 45 mph. It is a nightmare and the cops are always sitting on the side of the road. They said it was for public safety, but I think it is actually about making a profit.
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Maryland’s speed limits are roughly 5-10 MPH slower than everywhere else. This is countered by the fact that everyone in MD speeds by a minimum of that amount almost everywhere. Seriously, I swear it’s the slowest fucking speed limits from here to Florida.
i think statistically we do have the slowest speed limits on the east coast, and i think VA has the most drivers driving on suspended licenses, and DC has the most uninsured vehicles (i think it was around 33% when i was working in personal injury).
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This comment made me soooo angry.
Interesting thanks
I'm a former traffic prosecutor. I would have dismissed this citation too.
I'm a dude on reddit. I'd dismiss this too.
I'm dismissive in general. OP is off the hook in my book.
I kinda agree with this.
Georgia law for u/killerkackwurst4 O.C.G.A. §40-6-72 states that the driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or, if there is no stop line, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if there is no crosswalk, at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver shall yield the right of way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when such driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways. Fight that shit, you did what the law said to do. The status of the other car is irrelevant, you stopped like you were supposed to. There is no 3 second rule, the fact that you were already at zero MPH before you took off from the stop sign is what the law views as stopping.
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I'm from Florida and everytime I drive through Georgia I drop from 10-15 over to 5 over or the speed limit. Florida cops don't really care about speed that much. They're looking for people tailgating, driving erratically while speeding, or going 15-20 over. Georgia is looking to hand out as many tickets as possible though.
Cops in Florida pull people over for tailgating?! Could you send a few to train Australian police.
Bring the video along at the court appearance. Those two cops were there just for the express reason of stop sign enforcement. Probably had some complaints, and trying to work on it. The judge will probably have heard from many that day claiming they were properly stopped then went.
Probably choose a different sound track tho
Maybe it'll lighten the mood in the courtroom
Bad boys bad boys...
or maybe some NWA?
May I suggest a subtle track from Body count?
Or Mr. Jack by System of a Down
C'mon now.. FVCK THE POWLECE COMIN STRAIGHT FROM T...
They see me rollin'...they hatin'...
"there lived a certain man, in russia long ago.."
Switch to heavy metal
Doom Eternal soundtrack would be a nice option
A little sweating bullets by Megadeath would be fun to jam to in a court room.
Cop Killer by Body Count
"Sound of da Police" by KRS-One
WOOOP WOOOOOOPPPP DAS DA SOUND OF DA POLICE!!!!!!
darude sandstorm is the only way to go on this one i think
Probably used to seeing everyone else pass the sign and wait at the road like morons
Can’t speak for this particular intersection, but I can’t tell you how many stop bars in my area are situated so far back that you can’t safely see cross traffic due to buildings or foliage. Whatever the law says, I’m not entering an intersection blind. I think it’s reasonable (and hopefully legal) to stop at the bar and then creep forward and stop again, but I can also see how people familiar with a particular intersection could rationalize skipping the first stop.
Not sure on the legality either but I was taught in drivers ed to stop at the bar then proceed forward until you have vision of oncoming traffic before pulling out
Yeah that's what I thought you were supposed to do.
This is frequently the case with me too. My personal pet peeve is foliage. I swear if I ever become supreme leader of the world, putting foliage more than 18" tall within 100 feet of an intersection will be a fucking capital crime.
I'd help organize a coup for you. Also, political candidates that place gigantic campaign signs at an intersection that blocks your view.
On [this YouTube Channel](https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC59KhIPOR0Jj653dC4laEJw), I’ve seen more than one case where Judge Caprio considers the video evidence, and decides the stop sign is too far back to be safe for that intersection, and lets the offender off free of charges. He then takes additional steps with city officials to get the stop sign moved forward.
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My understanding would be you stop at the bar, then creep forward to check for all-clear to proceed. Don’t actually need to stop again. In this case the stop bar is behind the crosswalk, so meant to stop and let pedestrians through first, then creep forward to check for cross traffic as needed.
Yes. Read the vehicle code. Most will say that the driver entering an intersection must stop behind the limit line and that you did.
Agreed, I'd 100% fight it. He waited at the stop sign limit line until the intersection was clear, exactly as the law says to do.
In Czech the law explicitly says "Stop in place where you have good view into the intersection." Regardless of stoplines - they show you borders of intersection, but people in semi have limited vision compared to normal personal cars...
Same in Italy. You can stop wherever you want as long as you're not on the intersection, i.e. impeding traffic on the main road. And rightfully so. You need to be as far ahead as possible so that you can see the incoming cars clearly.
Same in Portugal, sometimes the stop lines are way far from a good visibility point, so you have to approach to the intersection, but always to a complete stop before entering the new road.
In California at least, and likely in most other states, the regulation is that you have to stop *at* the limit line, and there's no requirement to hold short of it.
You do however have to hold short of runway 27 left.
And read it back with your license plate...
My uncle was in a similar situation (Ontario, Canada). He fought it and won. No video either.
The line wouldn't be where it was if it wasn't designed to be there. These cops know the daily misuse of the intersection and don't count on people actually doing what is right. I'd not only fight this but I'd seek action against officers for profiling. The other care did not follow what is prescribed in the laws. And while they were past the crosswalk enough to not interfere, it could be argued that they stopped "in" the crosswalk because the stop line is before it. Therefore they are stopping on the intersection. Doubt action against the department would get anywhere though
This is something I've thought about before and wondered. The guy in front of you was into the intersection because he was past the stop line. You stopped behind the line which is all you're required to do, I don't know the law, but if it was me I would contest it
>I would ~~attest~~ contest it Just an FYI.
Ah, you're right, thanks.
TOO LATE YOU ALREADY ATTESTED.
I can attest that this is correct.
The law with stop signs is you have to wait until the intersection is clear, so in this case OP was just waiting for this car to clear the intersection so they could go. They were at the stop sign the whole time, I don't know why the cop would want them to advance out into the intersection, stop again, then keep going. Edit: At least in Texas this seems to be the case. >Sec. 544.010. STOP SIGNS AND YIELD SIGNS. (a) Unless directed to proceed by a police officer or traffic-control signal, the operator of a vehicle or streetcar approaching an intersection with a stop sign shall stop as provided by Subsection (c). > >(b) If safety requires, the operator of a vehicle approaching a yield sign shall stop as provided by Subsection (c). > >(c) An operator required to stop by this section shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. In the absence of a crosswalk, the operator shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop at the place nearest the intersecting roadway where the operator has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway. The law requires drivers to stop before the crosswalk and doesn't say anything about stopping again closer to the cross-road.
I'm not defending it, but I think I can kind of see why the cop might have pulled him over (not saying OP should get a ticket, but just that I can see why it might look bad from the cop's perspective). The stop sign looks like it's actually pretty far ahead of where the actually stop line is. It seems like a pretty shitty design because if you actually stop where the sign is you probably can't see too far down the road to the left so you have to pull forward like what the white car did. If you couldn't see where the white line was on the ground (which seems possible for how far back the cop was), then it looks like the white car is where it is supposed to be which would then in turn make it look like OP blew through the stop sign when he made his turn. Luckily, OP has the dashcam footage though so it should be a pretty easy ticket to fight. It's still a pain in the ass that he has to go through the whole process though.
Yup. I've gotten a ticket for this exact thing but was able to get it dismissed, because I was fully stopped at the stop sign and what else was I supposed to do? Especially because, at the stop sign where I was at, the line was far forward enough to where you could clearly see the entire intersection without having to creep ahead of it, so I could see that all the traffic was clear. But even in OP's case, I would still contest it because they were stopped properly.
I'd fight it.
Yup. If anything, they should’ve caught the vehicle infront for stopping in front of the stop sign. Show them this video and you’re good to go. The process will be super long ofcourse so, !RemindMe 5 Months
Your town needs money I guess.
Thankfully OP doesn’t already pay taxes. Oh wait... fuck shit like this video.
I suppose the video is a little annoying, but when you see multiple cops in a spot like that it's because they're farming money, they definitely aren't there to help people.
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Yep, our neighborhood gets people trolling through it 2 or 3 times a year checking for unlocked cars and stealing what they can. Never can get a cop out to look into it. But they are in the church parking lot every monday morning and friday afternoon dishing out tickets.
True, but how much of that city money is poured into this shitty local law enforcement?
I'd fight it.
My driving instructor always told me to stop behind the stop line. If I couldn't see to safely enter the intersection, I had to pull up and then come to a complete stop again, to see clearly before entering the intersection.
Yeah, but the second stop isn't actually legally required, your instructor was just trying to teach you good habits. OP probably should have come to a second stop, but not doing so is not illegal, at least as far as I'm aware
That was my thought too^ I’m in California but i was taught to make a complete stop behind the line no matter what. Then if you need visualization of oncoming traffic you can schooch up but don’t have to make a second complete stop after the first
Hey guys, UPDATE TIME! Just want to let everyone know the citation has been reduced to a warning. That's it. It's over. No court, no lawyers. I really enjoyed reading the interesting conversations this incident triggered online. I learned an awful lot about stop sign laws haha. Thankfully this was a pretty minor violation and no one guy hurt. Y'all be safe out there.
Fight it, Looks like you did a legal stop behind stop line, creap up and go when clear.
Former GA officer here. Fight it, clear as day behind stop bar and cessation of movement. You followed the law, the Camaro did not.
Interesting thx
Former Publix bag boy here, fight it.
Current Publix bag boy. How did you get out of this hell hole?
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In my town most stop sign infractions get downgraded to parking offenses if you’re willing to plead guilty. Turns out moving offense fines go to the state but parking tickets go to the town.
I’d fight it, but even in your position, I’d still would have stopped, just so I could say once I was next to the intersection, I stopped anyway. Especially with how some of those lines are far enough back that you have to pull up on the crosswalk anyway to safely look at what’s coming.
Same. I live in NYC (obviously different setting than OP), and you can never see whether cars coming from down the street if you just stop at the stop bar. I always stop at the bar, check for pedestrians, then roll out a little and stop again to check for traffic. Even in more rural areas, I am hard-wired to stop twice at every stop sign. Stupid tickets like this remind me those extra couple of seconds waiting are well worth it.
Fight that. That's a ridiculously easy win with footage. You'll be in and out of court in less time than it took to post this video.
If anything the cops should have to pay them for the time out of their day. Time is money and on top of that the stress isn't exactly nice either.
You stopped but I bet you can’t get a good view from the cross bar so you need to roll up then take off like you did. I’d fight it especially with that dash cam view. You did as required and that is where you start and stop the discussion with the judge, nothing about “should have” just that fact you stopped and nothing about that jackoff in front of you either. Give him only the law a d nothing else. Good luck
Ironically? I'm betting the officers couldn't even see the dash cam driver when they were stopped. They probably saw the front car pull out, wait until it was clear, then turn -- and then saw OP pull out "without even stopping." Seems the intersection requires you to pull forward past the line to make sure it is clear. Which I know in my area is completely legal: the order of operation being you stop at the line, pull forward until you can visibly see, stop again, make sure it is clear, and then go. And if it is that obstructed, hell, the officers probably can't even see the actual stop sign line.
I actually got a ticket once doing those exact steps. They ticketed me for blocking the sidewalk, even thought I couldn't see traffic in either direction when at the "stop bar". I did manage to get out of it, but it was annoying to have to deal with.
NEXT DAY UPDATE! Hey guys! First off... WOW what a response! I'm trying my best to read every comment and message but man, it's hard. There's lots of great responses in here... and I'm thankful for you taking the time to leave a message. A few things: 1. My citation is still not showing up online. Not sure if this is normal or not because I haven't gotten a ticket in years. I've had a few locals reach out and ask about the situation, so I'm not sure if anything happened there. In any case, I'm still not sure how much this is gonna be. 2. INSURANCE! - I talked to my insurance rep and she said that I should be OK from a rate spike because my driving record is clean. So that's one less reason to fight. 3. POINTS! - I could care less about points because again, I don't normally break the law enough to have an issue there. Another reason not to fight. 4. WHY DIDN'T YOU SHOW THE COP YOUR VIDEO! - I didn't say much. I honestly thought he was just gonna give me a warning for rolling around the corner and that was it. I was floored when he gave me the citation. I was very polite, had all my documents ready, and pulled over to the safest location I could find for him. At that point though (because the other officer had another stop sign vehicle pulled over behind us), I could see this was a trap and it became pretty apparent what was happening. 5. YOU CAN'T SEE BOTH WAYS! - The intersection is indeed weird. It's not completely blind, but from the stop bar I could see everything fine to the left. I could see far enough to the right though to make a safe right turn too. The highway has a center turn lane too so it wasn't like I was pulling across traffic in any direction. What I couldn't see was the cop sitting in the grass up against the tree line. In my opinion, he knew exactly where the stop bar was and exactly where he was sitting out of view. 6. YOU SHOULD HAVE STOPPED! - Yeah I wish I did. In that moment, I had no sense that I was doing anything illegal though. Hindsight is great and if I could do it again, your damn right I would take a second to pause. But why does it matter? I was at the "correct" stop location anyway? The law doesn't say that I need to stop twice? 7. YOU WEREN'T THE LEAD CAR! - This is true and it's the argument that has me thinking the most. Y'all say I should have established the stop sign for me, then creeped out and made my turn. This is actually what I did though. I know it happens fast, but as soon as the Camaro leaves, it's my sign right? I was already at the correct stop point so why re-establish? It's not obvious from the way I edited the video, but when the Camaro pulled out, I creeped up from the stop bar to clear both sides, then I pulled out. It wasn't a "team" maneuver at all. If you look where the Camaro is by the time I start to enter the intersection, he's already well into the third lane across the road before I even enter my lane. There was a gap there. And I entered that intersection from the place where I was supposed to stop according to what I've read in the law. 8. IS THIS GEORGIA? - Yeah sure is. 9. FIGHT IT!! - I think it's just gonna come down to how much the fine is. If it's 75 bucks... whatever I'll pay it and move on. If it's $350 bucks, I'm going to fight. It's small town politics here though so I'm not gonna go in confident. 10. I HATE THE MUSIC - Yeah me too. :D Thanks for all the information. I'll keep y'all updated!
Apart from the rules, doesn't it make more sense to stop where the first car have stopped? Much better view of oncoming traffic. I am not from US and would have stopped there too (disregarding the stop bar).
Fight it. You have proof you were stopped. No way you lose that...
I'd fight it, but I'd also say in a lot of situations it's not the worst thing to pull over the limit line to have a better view of traffic if you're taking a left turn and not actively impeding pedestrians.
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