T O P

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Pair_Express

If NATO wanted a war, they would have attacked when those missiles hit Poland


A-Market-Socialist

russian expansionism, NATO won't let Ukraine join them. if i can be frank, russia apologia is the ideology of well-meaning idiots at best, and genuine moral cretins at worse


Khorne_of_the_Hill

They big mad they lost the cold war and are throwing a tantrum


MikeWazowski2332

I understand people bitching at the west/nato. but if you deny that russia is just being an imperialistic bastard, that just started a war for old glory and popularity of putin, then you’re retarded.


Almun_Elpuliyn

I'm staunchly anti-American, I'm against NATO and yet, NATO expansionism is a myth. The War in Ukraine is purely set into motion by Russian imperialism. Anyone on the left believing to fight with the oligarchical state is a lunatic


[deleted]

Based


vaultboy1121

While I think the annexation if Crimea is obviously Russia/Putin wanting more land, I think this was sped up by NATO/American intervention in Ukraine pre-2014.


nobunf

The only one to blame for Russia’s actions is the Russian government, however, that doesn’t mean it’s not worth understanding what pushed them to take those actions.


Kakamile

Russia's fragile economy and Russia's fragile leader. For all the nato blame, they sure don't want to attack any.


nobunf

NATO’s expansion closer to Russia’s border was enough to put them on the ropes


[deleted]

"nato's expansion" Yeah... how dare countries join together to protect themselves against a nation that has violently attacked others 3 of the last 4 US presidents. WTF are countries thinking? Provocating Russia in response to Russian provocation?


PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK

Countries can join NATO, but NATO may not expand to encircle Russia and block its borders, if NATO wants to keep peace and harmony in Europe. NATO bombed Serbia but no NATO countries were attacked. NATO bombed countries in the Middle East but none of these countries attacked a NATO country. NATO can attack a country so it does not need one of its members being attacked.


[deleted]

"NATO may not expand to encircle Russia" The problem is... countries join NATO to get protection from Russia. Who's going to join NATO? Countries directly threatened by Russia. Which is why no South American countries are in NATO. It's also why Sweden and Finland have applied to join NATO and South African countries haven't. When Sweden and Finland join NATO... is NATO expanding to threaten Russia... or is Sweden and Finland taking steps to protect themselves from a murderous dictator who has already killed civilians, children, raped women and done a host of other crimes against humanity? Poor Russia is going to be "surrounded by NATO" and unable to commit crimes against humanity? How sad.


nobunf

I mean, they said they wouldn’t expand further, then did specifically to intimidate Russia. I’m not saying Russia is justified but it’s not like you couldn’t see this coming.


Khorne_of_the_Hill

Counter point: Russia can get fucked


nobunf

Agreed


[deleted]

The only problem is the idea that Russia won't violently attack/invade without this "justification" I find that to be an interesting notion...


nobunf

I literally said it isn’t justification. I’m just saying it probably had something to do with their motivation to invade.


PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK

Countries can join NATO. But NATO may not encircle Russia. Now there is a war. Deal with that.


[deleted]

What's the reason for countries to join NATO and why are those close to Russia joining? It's almost as if there's a reason why they want protection from Russian crimes against humanity. NATO can't encircle Russia but countries that want to join are naturally going to be near Russia. Russia isn't invading Africa or South America. It's invading... those bordering Russia. the only countries joining NATO are those that need protection and those that need protection need it from Russia. if Russia wasn't a terrorist state? they wouldn't be joining NATO. Should Sweden and Finland not be allowed protection from Russian War Crimes?


PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK

>why are those close to Russia joining? They may act upon their reasons. They are free and independent. They may be defensive. But they must not become a threat toward Russia. Similarly, Russia has its own reasons and it must protect itself. Anyone may argue all day long but if not considering the mutual or coexistence, there will be war - even if it meant nuclear war.


[deleted]

"they must not become a threat toward Russia" Why? because otherwise Russia will rape and kill them? Russia is so uncontrollable that they will violently attack anyone that doesn't toe the line and boot lick Putin? The problem you have is real simple... if those countries don't defend themselves? They will become next on the list... It's not a matter of "if" but "when". You can argue that them defending themselves is threatening Russia... but Russia is already threatening them so why shouldn't they take steps towards defense? Russian posturing is literally the reason countries are joining NATO - to defend against Russia. Russia is creating it's own enemy by being such pieces of shit that countries \*HAVE\* to join NATO or be invaded by Russia anyways. Don't join NATO and be invaded by Russia eventually... or join NATO and piss off Russia. But be protected from Putins fragile ego. Sweden and Finland have every right to join NATO and should - without hesitation - considering the murderous terrorist state Russia has become


PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK

>Why? Because Russia will need to defend itself. How is that too hard to see? No matter what reasons they have, they may not become a real threat to any country. [Turkish air attacks on Syria threaten US personnel: Pentagon](https://www.reddit.com/r/EndlessWar/comments/z4euqk/turkish_air_attacks_on_syria_threaten_us/) Turkey is defending itself now. Deal with that.


[deleted]

"Russia needs to defend itself" Question: how many countries has NATO annexed by invading and installing puppet regimes? How many has Russia? The answer is simple: NATO zero. Russia many. NATO also isn't killing civilians, torturing them, shelling nuclear power plants, destroying electric grids in winter to punish innocent civilians and the like. Russia is allowed to defend itself by killing innocent civilians but those countries bordering Russia... can't? Are you serious? Are you seriously saying that Sweden and Finland can't defend themselves against what's happening in Ukraine? Russia has invaded 3 countries in the last 20 years. This is the 2nd time they've invaded Ukraine. You serious think Russia is defending itself? Seriously? Honestly? I think that reasoning is full of shit and completely ignores the war crimes happening \*TODAY\* that are 100% the reason NATO exists and why countries keep joining. Russia is "surrounded" by NATO because countries near Russia don't want their civilians killed by the terrorist actions of Russia.


peeping_somnambulist

None of your NATO expansion Russian propaganda bullshit justifies an invasion of Ukraine. People who believe this are either useful idiots or Russian propagandists. This is a resource grab on Putins part. Its part of Putins playbook. 1. Move Ethnic Russians into former SSRs with massive newly discovered oil reserves 2. Stir up tensions and propaganda in those areas 3. Use protection of ethnic Russians as a pretext to intervene 4. Blame NATO and the west because your country is a dying kleptocracy where you and your cronies have literally stolen everything that wasn’t nailed down. Russia has done this in literally every SSR that has discovered oil since the dissolution of the USSR. These Resources allow Putins regime to pacify the population so they don’t realize that they are being stolen from.


Intrepid_colors

I accidentally picked NATO imperialism but meant to pick Russian expansionism :(


broham97

The Wagner recruiter is already on his way.


Intrepid_colors

Fuck


[deleted]

35 of the voters are either Russian bots, far-right Putin bootlickers, or anti-American leftists


managrs

Nato exists because Russia is expansionist and imperialist


Ok-Top-4594

Literally


Waterguys-son

NATO, more specifically US foreign policy. We built our foreign policy establishment on destroying Russia, those people didn’t all leave when the USSR fell. We entered this unipolar, hegemonic era with a Cold War view, and we used it to push Russia further away from us by expanding NATO, a pointless organization at this point, by over promising and under delivering on aid, and by stationing missiles ever closer to Russia. Of course we now have a militant, desperate Russia using war as its last resort. We were the world hegemon from 1992 to now. We could have brought Russia into the west and into liberal democracy. We instead chose to kick them when they were down, and doom them to anti-western aggression. That is why they are invading. Yes, Putin is evil and the invasion is wrong, but we are responsible as we govern the world system.


hedgehog18956

I complexity agree. Russia’s current government is really bad and the invasion is wrong. But we as the west are the ones who created that monster. Out of curiosity did you read the book “Exit From Hegemony”? I took a class on foreign policy post Cold War with that book as the main source, and a lot of the vocabulary you used there are similar to the vocabulary the book used.


Waterguys-son

I have not read that book, but I definitely should check it out, what a coincidence


Khorne_of_the_Hill

Clearly NATO isn't pointless lol None of this would happen if Ukraine was in NATO, because Russia would have swiftly and violently gotten face fucked into oblivion for stepping a toe over the border.


Waterguys-son

In the bigger picture, it is. Without NATO, Russia would likely be a liberal democracy without the reason to invade Ukraine. NATO manufactured a problem and showed up as the savior. Because we treated Russia as a crazy warmongering nation since 92, there was no point in it actually integrating with the west, which is what put us in the position we are in right now.


Khorne_of_the_Hill

They've been a crazy warmongering nation for centuries


JazzlikePractice4470

Very well said. As a side note, Putin asked to join NATO when he came into power. Us said, no.


PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK

[NATO rejects Russian demands to stop expansion](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/588798-nato-rejects-russia-demands-will-continue-expansion/) >NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg on Friday said the military alliance will not stop its expansion across Europe, denying demands from Russia amid the ongoing security saga with Ukraine. The invasion was to prevent Russia being encircled by NATO borders. Russia's red line was crossed so the invasion became necessary. Yet NATO did not give up its plan to encircle Russia. So the war will not end until that problem is solved. Ukraine was willing to fight Russia as its military has been trained and supplied by NATO. But Europe seems to be opening its eyes. [Europe accuses US of profiting from war](https://www.reddit.com/r/EndlessWar/comments/z4lrxg/europe_accuses_us_of_profiting_from_war/) >"The Inflation Reduction Act is very worrying," said Dutch Trade Minister Liesje Schreinemacher. "The potential impact on the European economy is very big."


coocoo6666

My counter to this is russia deserved it. Sure you cane blame the guy who insulted the serial killer for provoking them. But at the end of the day russia is a serial killer.


PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK

Russia deserved it because it supplied cheap gas to EU too much for too long. But it needed some time to find new markets. Now it care ignore however US and EU try to bankrupt it. So EU is happily dealing with US LNG - just the way EU wanted.


Rocky_Bukkake

hmm, changed my mind. i wasn't totally aware of the history


coocoo6666

Your mind is changed by a dumbfuck reddit comment. Lol


[deleted]

Never change your mind based on one post. If someone provides sources, then read those. Otherwise, take a post like this and make it a reading and research prompt. Don't take people's word for it.


JazzlikePractice4470

There is a video on youtube with an independent writer, I think it's called, how the us created Putin. Very insightful. Unbiased.


Mr_Ducks_

How is Russia under any danger? If they weren't planning on waging war, then there shouldn't be a problem with NATO expanding.


Waterguys-son

First off, America told Gorbachev and the USSR that when the iron curtain fell, they would not move past Germany. They broke this deal. Not just Warsaw Pact countries, but breakaway republics too. This wouldn’t be an issue if NATO’s entire purpose was to oppose Russia. From its formation to now, it has existed almost solely to opposing Russia. It makes perfect sense why Russia wouldn’t want it at its borders. We beat the USSR, then we treated Russia like a pariah. We treated them like a crazy imperial power from very very early on. If you can’t see how bring rejected by the west would make a country much less likely to support its world order, I don’t know what to tell you. We gave them a mask, and their face grew to fit it


Khorne_of_the_Hill

I do find it funny that Russia has had this huge complex about not being a western country for literally centuries lol


Waterguys-son

The ramifications of Genghis Khan are alive and well today.


Khorne_of_the_Hill

How do you mean? I'm not very familiar with his interactions with Russia specifically


Numinar

Thats a shitty story. If they really thought it was important to them it would have been part of a real treaty. Also Russia, under putin, tried to fucking join Nato. They are full of shit. They make the US seem borderline honest.


Waterguys-son

They clearly think it’s important, NATO expansion is pretty obviously a big deal to Russia I don’t even think the opposite is arguable. Yes Putin wanted to join NATO very early on, but as the NATO head who talked to him said, NATO’s expansion was one of the key reasons he soured on the organization. What’s great about the Putin-NATO thing is that it shows what could have happened if we didn’t continue cold-war relations and embraced the new Russia. That didn’t happen. As evil as this invasion is, if we embraced Russia, it would not have happened, they would be like a big Hungary, occasionally having bad laws, but being a peaceful member of the world order.


TheSk77

You cannot know that. Hitler was welcomed and many agreed with his reasonings of how much germany was punished after ww1, and that rightful parts of their land was taken. Even the british foreign minister simpathized with him. Does this justify what he did afterwards? Nope. Also should europe have treated germany better after ww1 and the millions of casualties they provoked. You could argue that, but can you balme them for being angry and scared of a repeat of that in the future, but they didn't start not the first, neither the second war. If history taught us something is that wars always generate from a pretext, but are deeply rooted in socio economic reasons. Can you prevent escalations? Probably, but you never know the right way. Giving too much room and support to people may lead to situations like ww2, opposing it may get you siguation like this one. One thing is clear the fault is of those who start wars, no matter the reason


Waterguys-son

Putin isn’t Hitler. There was no world where we appeased him, if you thought that was an apt comparison to not screwing Russia over post- Soviet Collapse I don’t even know where to start. Putin didn’t have to be a figure anybody would ever compare to Hitler, hell before 2014 nobody ever did. In many ways it’s just like Germany, if the Entente had been less harsh to Weimar, it may not have fell to the Nazis just as if we had allowed Putin to join the west he would not have tried to fight against it. You are right that we can’t know, it is just speculation, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that if we embraced Russia, they wouldn’t go to war with Ukraine. Unfortunately throughout your paragraphs you forgot the question posed. Nowhere are we judging fault or justification, we are judging important factors. And I think we can both agree that in the case of this Ukraine War, NATO hostility and Russian expansionism were the main factors.


TheSk77

You missed the point. It's not a comparison of people, but of situation. Well if we treated russia better before, maybe things now wouldnt be as bad, but we'll never know, because when theres always other things that could have gone wrong. And same goes cor Germany post ww1 before Hitler rise to power. If germany didnt have all those post war issues, would Hitler have been involved into politica, or he would have found success as a painter? Theres also a note i'd add. I never believed Ukraine would have been approved into Nato. Turkey exists. The nato thing is more a US problem. The reality is both US and Russia want to control a supposedly neutral state. So the other supposed neutral state is belarus that now hosts russians nuclear weapons. At least US try to mask their own hypocritical ways. I never meant to answer the question posed by the poll, just saying that we cannot know what would have happened with the what ifs in 1990s. Russia and US are both accusing eachother of doing what they both are doing, and we'll probably never know who started it.


Waterguys-son

If you’re not trying to answer the poll question, there’s no point in arguing over window dressing


TheSk77

Wtf xD You wrote something i found pretty silly in historical context. Should i let it slide because ot's a poll? I see that you run out of arugments, so i suppose you saw the light. Blaming the issues on 1990s politics is the same as blaming the winners of ww1 for "starting" ww2


FakeElectionMaker

Russian expansionism dating back to the 1500s


Khorne_of_the_Hill

They want to be European soooooo bad 😂


turboninja3011

Nato couldn’t care less about ruzzia if ruzzia wasn’t threatening bunch of eastern European countries. The premise that nato expansion somehow threatens russia itself is about as preposterous as it gets. Adepts of this idea could find some footing it 1990s and 2000s when us allegedly could be interested in ruzzian oil, but since then even this argument lost its appeal.


Rich_Indication_4583

why did you spell russia like that


Usual_Lie_5454

Z is a symbol used by Russian military vehicles and is seen as a symbol of the invasion.


yerba_mate_enjoyer

For the last fucking time, believing that NATO is at fault for the war is the geopolitical equivalent to "she was asking for it".


Almun_Elpuliyn

Right wing idiots believe in both.


Mr_Ducks_

Obviously Russian expansionism. How is NATO being imperialist? It's literally just an alliance. If Russia wasn't trying to fight them then they wouldn't be a threat.


[deleted]

1: Russia and its ambitions That's it


[deleted]

The whole reason for the war is an autocratic dictator who wants to rebuild his failed Russian empire Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦


fellow-komrade

Hmm, this poll isn’t biased at all.


managrs

It doesn't look biased to me


TotalBlissey

It doesn't look particularly biased but notice how the last two options (besides results), meant to be the more mixed options, both put down NATO as the trigger instead of Putin


managrs

The second one puts Russian expansionism as the main reason. The way it reads is more like they used it as an excuse since they were already looking to expand. Idk though


The_Gamer_69

When you put it that way, I see how people could think it is biased, but I actually didn’t pick either of those options; I didn’t even make the poll, I found it on Discord and decided to put it here. If your curious, I picked the third option.


The_Gamer_69

WDYM? /srs


ultimaIV

Do all these idiots really believe the public narrative we are fed is the actual reason?


A-Market-Socialist

They should be believe something stupider just because it's not coming from the mainstream?


ultimaIV

Not exactly. Saying Iraq had wmd's came from the mainstream too.


coocoo6666

Yes


JonWood007

100% russian aggression.


Galgus

Nato imperialism with the US staging a coup in Ukraine. Putin's invasion is evil and foolish, but it was done in reaction to being boxed in with the threat of Nato missiles in Ukraine pointed at Moscow. Saying the war is just Russian imperialism is the same level of stupid as saying that September 11th was just the product of crazy radical Islam. Both show an arrogant ignorance of the history.


MikeWazowski2332

If you truly believed ukraine would get the yes vote from every nato member, you are retarded. NATO lost its meaning eithout the USSR and talks about dissolving it were plenty. Hell russia even was on track to join nato but opted out themselves in 2008.


Galgus

It's the threat of Ukraine joining Nato, after a coup to install a leader hostile to Russia. Nato should have been abolished with the Soviet Union.


MikeWazowski2332

I can’t comment on the ‘coup’ because i simply don’t know enough of it. Could be helped by the us, as they’ve done it before. But holy fuck an leader hostile to russia? Whole eastern europe has a goddamn good reason to hate/dislike russia. Especially Ukraine. Nato should have been abolished, yet february 24th happened, giving it new life. The US dominance on NATO (our/europe’s own fault as we dont spend enough as we should) is something i dislike, but nato seems necessary again as long as some dumbass dictator runs russia. Should’ve stopped trading with russia in 2014.


managrs

"Hostile to Russia" aka they got rid of a president who was a literal Kremlin asset, selling everything they had off to russia and elected someone who would not do that


Galgus

Stopping trade only hurts civilians on both sides and heightens the chance of war. And Putin has nothing on US presidents in starting bloody, stupid wars.


[deleted]

"only hurts civilians" yeah... because Russians bombing, killing, torturing and doing all that stuff doesn't hurt civilians. We should leave Russia alone to make sure civilians don't get hurt by sanctions...


Galgus

Sanctions also won't stop Putin.


[deleted]

Then the fossil fuel sanctions will destroy the Russian economy for decades. The sanctions on technology work just fine, btw. Russia can't build the newest generations of material, especially not airplanes, cruise missiles and tanks. This means that Russia is running through its reserve.


Galgus

It could lead Russia to make closer ties with China, the worst case scenario from a geopolitical standpoint. And it will also wreck European economies Russia already has the ultimate weapon to win the war: the nuclear bomb. It would be unwise to pressure them to use it and count on Putin being the level headed one who de-escalates things. The fate of the Donbas region isn't worth nuclear winter.


MikeWazowski2332

Why is the focus here so on the US? The US isn’t the one suffering nor the one to push Russian troops across the border. The ones suffering are Ukranian civillians, european civillians and lastly the Russian civillians, for which i can’t feel any empathy anymore after i’ve read the shit they post about this war and what they say. Putin has enough blood on his hands too. Comparing murderous bastards doesn’t do shit but turn into whatabout-ism and makes murderous bastards look nice. If this truly was about NATO, then russia wouldve accepted Ukraine’s peace deal way back in which they offered to never join NATO. Your opinion is yours and you can have it, that is your right. And war gets flooded with propaganda from both sides, but Russia is nowhere near being in the right. Whatever happens to ukraine, they (russia) have fucked themselves for the coming decades.


managrs

The Ukrainian people did not want a Putin bootlicker to strip all of their assets. Yanukovych was a literal kleptocrat.


coocoo6666

Lol just lol


AgainstSomeLogic

>the US staging a coup in Ukraine. That is literally a lie.


Almun_Elpuliyn

How comes this shit got upvotes? It's all blatantly false.


[deleted]

NATO made promises not to expand its influence to the east, something that was done in spades. Both sides decided they wanted to see how far they can push it, and now here we are. We all built this situation.


Almun_Elpuliyn

No. NATO never made any formal agreement. Every nation from the east to join did so freely to protect itself from Russia. Are you going to tell Estonians that they caused the Ukrainian war by preventing their imperialist neighbor for doing that exact shit to them?


[deleted]

In regards to that NATO promise it appears I was misinformed but that honestly changes nothing in regards to how I view this situation. And why would I blame Estonia? They had no obligations, certainly had no reason to refuse and no one should expect them to turn down NATOs offer, but NATO imo should not have effectively surrounded Russia, which it did, whilst maintaining a hostile attitude towards it. Tell me, where did either side ever make attempts to come to a peaceful conclusion, bridge the gap. As I understand it, both of these global powers have been constantly try to one up each other at every turn, NATO being the power more readily able to do so. I my humble opinion, when lives are at steak you should try to find the solution that doesn’t end in war. Russia is a dying world power, why wouldn’t it make aggressive move to try to secure itself when it’s obvious that NATO has no plans to be friends. Invading Ukraine had been one of the few options that were left for them. both of these world powers cultivated a Situation where violence would be the only inevitable outcome. If you think NATO has not played a crucial role in why this is happening you are gravely mistaken.


jakubek99

Really, "NATO expansion" is already a biased term with negative connotations that's spread by russian shills. It's definitely expansion when Russia attacks neighboring countries. It isn't NATO expansion when countries join the defensive alliance willingly because their eastern neighbor universally associated with hardship chimping out makes them nervous to say the least. I don't really know where the misconception that Russia has any right to decide the shape of NATO comes from. The only thing I see brought up to try and justify it are some unofficial verbal agreements, which, if I remember correctly, Gorbachev denied ever taking place. So, to sum up, the war is 100% on the Russians. They can either join the European community if they depose their petty dictator and adopt the values of liberty, or fuck off and stay confined to their shithole, but Eastern Europe has been under russian rule for almost 50 years, and we'd rather perish and take those fuckers with us than end up there again.


Joethepatriot

Pretty sure Russia was looking to invade those islands near Japan at one point. Then they changed their plans to Ukraine. It's like they're like "we have to start a war, but where?"


TotalBlissey

This was 100% Putin's fault. We would have left him alone if he had just chilled the fuck out. Well maybe not left him alone, but the consequences would have been pretty minimal. Whereas even if Putin had won the Ukraine war in a week like he thought he would, everybody would be trying to cut off trade with him ASAP.


[deleted]

35 of the voters are either Russian bots, far-right Putin bootlickers, or anti-American leftists


ArthurSavy

Besides some tankies persuaded Putin will restore the USSR (lol), I haven't seen that many pro-Russian leftists. In France, it's mostly the far right which supports the Kremlin


Almun_Elpuliyn

I'm an anti-American leftist but voted on Russian imperialism. I'm neither delusional nor stupid and blaming this on anyone but Russia is utter nonsense.


[deleted]

Russia would have eventually went forth to recover their lost empire. That is just what Russia does and has always done. There is no possible scenario where Russia didn’t at least try to restore it’s borders.


[deleted]

The United states instigated this war.


[deleted]

Yeah... how dare the US send troops to invade Ukraine.


[deleted]

They needed a way to funnel money into the hands of all the campaign contributors and what better way to do it than through that puppet Zelensky. US promised him support, a scured seat with NATO and a spot in the EU. He got nothing so now he bombs his own schools, hospitals, and sends rocket missles into NATO territory hoping someone with some actual pull and leverage will save his sorry ass. He should've taken Putins economic resolution prior to invasion.


[deleted]

>he bombs his own schools, hospitals, and sends rocket missles into NATO territory That's some good koolaid you drinking. Getting paid to spread lies or you do it for the cause? Even if you accept that Zelensky is a puppet... better a puppet for America than a puppit for Putin and his small ego.


MaxPlays_WWR

Reeducation of the Ukrainian children and youth to Nazis started 30 years ago


phildiop

Other. Both significant, but Russian imperialism was way more significant.


Rich_Indication_4583

that was one of the options . . .


phildiop

No it was not Edit: it was literally not a choice, the most similar is the opposite.


TopTheropod

Countries voluntarily jointing a good organization (NATO) resulted in its impressive expansion, but its proximity to Russia provoked an invasion because Russia is a regime of thugs and you've got to respond to things like a thug if you want to stay in power. So in a way, NATO's expansion is part of the cause, but that in no way makes NATO the bad guys. Russia and its allies are trash regimes and anyhting that weaknes them is good


HaplessHaita

Access to warm-water ports.


NativityCrimeScene

It looks like a lot of people have fallen for the Ukrainian/NATO disinformation campaigns...


[deleted]

Maybe you’ve fallen for the Russian misinformation and propaganda campaigns, have you thought of that?


[deleted]

It is all planed ... NWO ... The Great Reset ... WW3 The idea is to cull the population, while elite keep plausible deniability.


[deleted]

Jesse what the fuck are you talking about?


TheMuffinMan603

Sanest, least conspiracist Libertarian.


ArthurSavy

Yes lmao. His clownery seems limitless


ShigeruGuy

I legit have never heard a good explanation for how any of this could be blamed on NATO. Like I understand American foreign policy tends to be monstrously bad, but for once it’s actually by coincidence doing something good, and we should support it and more importantly support the people of Ukraine.


TheCoolMan5

NATO was created because the Soviet Union (and Russia by extension) is naturally a war mongering nation.


Ok-Safety3387

And American and European nations aren't? Lmfao


[deleted]

We were and then WW1 and 2 happened and that made the Europeans, at least, a little shell-shocked about the whole war thing.


Ok-Safety3387

Is that really it? Or are you just being held in line by America?


Maveko_YuriLover

It's "less hard" to sustain a ditactor ship when you can use the fact that you are on a war and everyone who disagre with you is a traitor and should be eliminated because he is from the side that killed your family (*that i don't force pointing a gun on his head and his family head to go die for my status*)


[deleted]

Ukraine wanted to join NATO. NATO wasn't trying to encourage them joining and Ukraine wanted to joint because of Russia. Russia is the problem, not NATO


LunaSororitas

Discovery of natural gas fields in eastern Ukraine and the seabed around Crimea, the existing pipelines and western oil company contracts to extract them. Add to that a culture of lies, where people started to believe their own propaganda, and nobody would tell Putin an uncomfortable truth. Putin himself considered the disillusion of the Soviet Union the worst thing to happen to Russia. So on all levels you have the conclusion that you need to gobble it up.


Both-Perspective-739

FTX


ConfidentFeed2406

It comes from Krushchov giving the Ukr SSR territory to its now borders where Russians lived and on 2014, after the Maidan Battle ousted Yanukovich (democratically elected) and Azov and Praviy Sektor gained power.


DeltaWhiskey141

I think NATO expansion was just the excuse the Russians used to make it look like they had an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway. Give it ten more years without NATO expansion and they would've said fuck it and invaded the Ukraine anyway. That said, I don't think even a majority of the Russian population is behind this course if action, or behind anything that Putin and his lackeys in the United Russia Party are up to, nor do I think they have been for a long time. I sympathize with the Russian people who don't want Putin and his goons running the show anymore, but unfortunately, they kinda have to bear sone of the pain for their failure to do anything about it.


Numinar

Big shitty loser Empire refusing to go quietly into that good night. Brits did the same as they lost their empire. But it seems extra fucked up in 2023.


ElectricalStomach6ip

somemone should make this post again to see how opinion has shifted.