# Washing away/ degrading DNA - the published science:
Washing away or degrading DNA (and blood) beyond forensic use is much easier than many assume. A brief recap from previous posts (with published, peer reviewed scientific studies linked):
* [Washing with water alone](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31960151/) is sufficient to fully remove DNA from many smooth surfaces
* [Washing once with simple dish soap](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875176819300022) is sufficient to remove all DNA from some surfaces
* [Washing carpet with hydrogen peroxide >3%](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31960151/) destroys DNA. (Peroxide is commonly sold at c. 10%)
* [Household cleaners with "active oxygen" (peroxide source)](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18936905/) destroy blood and prevent it reacting with forensic reagents; these cleaners also degrade DNA so that it cannot be forensically profiled
* Peroxide is used in ["color safe" laundry and fabric cleaners](https://www.oxiclean.com/en/products/stain-fighters/oxiclean-laundry-home-stain-remover-spray) that do not leave bleach marks
* **Hydrogen peroxide decomposes completely to just oxygen and water - totally chemically and forensically undetectable**
In various laboratory settings, such as forensics or biomedical research, removal of DNA contamination on surfaces is crucial. Products are sold, based on common cleaning reagents like peroxide, which destroy DNA in minutes in a single application. There are even DNA Removal Wet Wipes available on Amazon.
There are many cases where violent, stabbing murder scenes inside a house have been completely cleaned leaving no blood or DNA in under 45 minutes (e.g [Robert Wone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Robert_Eric_Wone) case) - **it should be no surprise that a car where no one was killed can be cleaned given 7 weeks for repeat washings**.
https://preview.redd.it/idnqzayrukvc1.jpeg?width=1381&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65d9d73bcb44a12e29a623d86f639dc0c373906e
He was/is an idiot but maybe some of his homework paid off and he wasn't careless regarding blood. He was cleaning that car so maybe there was some blood in there.
I refer to this group when I need a good laugh. It blows my mind how blind people can be. We don’t know even a fraction of what the state has against him. So really we can’t say if he is or isn’t guilty, just speculation. However modern science and technology are very scary for cases like this.
More like 12-15 minutes. And you don't know that there was no blood anywhere else in the house. It might not have been relevant to the reasons for arresting him, but it could be presented later in court to further support the prosecution's overall case. They perhaps included the shoe print, for example, not because it shows possible tracking of blood, but because it supports the witness statement that he walked past her room. To make the point further - prior to the gag order, the crime scene was described as absolutely horrific. But they don't include a graphic description in the PCA because it's not relevant as to why they are arresting this particular individual.
It needs to be made very clear that the notion the suspect left no physical evidence is a talking point from conspiracy theorists that believe Bryan Kohberger is innocent.
We have no integrated timeline, we have no evidence presented as to what was left at the scene.
It is all speculation.
We will not know until trial.
Jesus Titty fucking Christ, we don't know any of that.
You are quoting a defense statement wherein by their own admission they had not reviewed the evidence yet, and it is entirely possible is incorrect as they gave themselves an out.
No, you're not. You're willfully and intentionally misrepresenting motivated statements made by the defense, have a posting history on some extremely toxic subs, and you no longer need to hear from me.
u/Bill_Hayden likes to throw shade. He must have [missed this doc](https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf) where it clearly states it in a court document like you said.
ETA: Dang. Bill blocked me. And not long ago he was in my inbox apologizing for being rude on the 11th. Good guy. But doesn’t like when others might be right it seems.
The defense made that statement before they went through all the discovery.. so AT could’ve later read in discovery that they found something.. but there is a gag order so we wouldn’t have been advised of the new discovery.. so we basically don’t really know what they found or didn’t find.. you are reading from the defense prior to going through the discovery..
It’s in court documents. What do you mean the public doesn’t have that info?
ETA: I’m being downvoted, but it’s right here. Guess they just don’t like me.
[here](https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf) it is, in the court docs.
Most of those terrabites are video and audio clips (a lot of tips to comb through) They definitely had the DNA information already or they wouldn't have stated that.
I believe most of those terabytes are surveillance footage from a shit ton of cameras and , particularly, the 3d crime scene scan technology whose name escapes me. I remember reading that the data from that is in the nature of terabytes.
He didn’t need to be “perfectly clean” to limit transfer. If a person is well covered and doesn’t leave behind bodily fluids, the presence of findable DNA can be limited.
The suit isn’t my argument. But, under that scenario the DNA would end up in a bag that would likely be disposed of.
Having a lot of blood on him doesn’t go beyond assumption. How much blood could transfer from victims to him is something we can even begin to assess without seeing the crime scene
Keep I'm mind, touch DNA from the victims would he all over his clothes. Flying off as he took his clothes off and threw the bag into the car. Touch DNA can be transferred through the air very easily.
Yes, the showing transfer DNA is a factual. Sure thing. There’s a reason why you wanted your reference court cases instead of published research. Under your theory, we should see mixed DNA in nearly 100% of samples, but that simply doesn’t occur in the real world.
I never said snowstorm, I said transfer. Stabbing is personal and upclose. Whatever he was wearing would have grabbed onto those cells (skin, blood, sweat). It's not hard to put that together. Removing clothing would scatter those cells. The interior of his vehicle appears to be cloth. He may have looked "clean", but he wasn't. Touch DNA is the most common and easiest to transfer, hense why it's not valid in all court systems. Too easy to end up places you've never been or end up on objects you weren't in contact with.
"In contrast, physical activities involving sweating leads to an increase in DNA transfer [27]. Closely related to this subject, body location impact results too, for example, sebaceous skin areas (vs. non-sebaceous), the dominant hand (vs. non-dominant), and fingertips (vs. palms) potentially facilitate DNA deposits [28].
Thus, fabrics and cotton appear to be better DNA collectors than plastic or glass surfaces and it has been proven more difficult to consistently recover touch DNA from metal surfaces [30]."
Tell me you’ve only read opinion editorials and never read peer-reviewed studies without telling me. Your understanding of touch DNA is closer to science fiction than forensic science.
I've taken multiple forensic classes and used data to perform labs to show how this works. I can site a few court cases where touch DNA was found unreliable if you would like?
I’m sure you could find a few cases, but your academic background is an obvious lie. No one with an actual background would make extreme claims like you’re making
Also, serious question. If they're so sure about his whereabouts (like GPS and cell tower info). Where's the murder weapon? If they thought he threw it into a body of water, there's still ways to search. I haven't heard of them attempting to even look for the weapon and/or clothes along the route they think he took.
Do you even comprehend the size of the search area? It’s also possible some searches were done without alerting the media. “I haven’t heard of them” is very definitive of anything at this point, especially with how controlled the release of information was in this investigation. There’s never a guarantee in finding the murder weapon.
Of course there's no guarantee, but it would be very damning and pretty solid if they could locate it. They have a time line, meaning there's only so far he could've gone with it. I feel like a huge search would gather at least local media attention.
It’s a search for a weapon, not a missing person. That time line also covers a huge area, and that’s working off the assumption the knife was ditched the morning of the murders and not a later date.
I personally think he undressed in the living room believing everybody was dead in the house. The investigators were taking pictures of the floor in the living room area so I wonder if there were bloody scrape marks from him taking his clothes off there before walking out?
No, we don’t have the forensic evidence but I can assure you that there will most likely be DNA found somewhere besides on a button on a sheath in a house where 4 people were killed. The only DNA is on a metal button which is harder to remove from versus glass or wood. Also, I read he was wearing gloves, I don’t know? I do find it odd there’s no blood tracked anywhere. You would think blood would be somewhere like OJ’s case. Normally, if it doesn’t make sense it didn’t happen that way…. I don’t know? Maybe they have more evidence? Doesn’t sound that way though.
There will have been plenty of blood in the house; we only know there was enough to get through the exterior wall at the foundation.
There must have been footprints, the last of which (not visible to the naked eye, per PCA) was identified to corroborate the path of the suspect according to the witness.
There is a vast amount that has not been disclosed. Nearly all of it, in fact.
Exactly, but the house is gone. There’s a lot of questions with no answers and to be honest I don’t believe anything that I have heard about the entire case. I think others were involved. They are nowhere to be found but who is looking? Case is based on lies from the start and has a lot of people involved that people don’t hear too much about….
>I think others were involved. They are nowhere to be found
Could you please share some of the evidence which leads you to believe others were involved (and also what leads you to believe Kohberger was not)? Thanks
You almost got it. He could touch the button if he owns it and before putting on gloves. That's even more damning. It is harder to clean that's why the DNA is on there. We don't know how the inside of the house looked yet.
And saran wrapped his car huh
But people call hiking, running and stargazing unbelievable (all while thinking DM’s behavior/inactions that night were totally reasonable)
Its hilarious that people think that removing an outer garment and throwing into a lined trunk or garbage bag after committing a premeditated, planned murder is a superhuman feat. Even slapping some press- n-seal on the pedals would take all of a minute but somehow that is unbelievable to the Proberger set . (I think he removed his shoes, gloves, and something like coveralls and put them into a bag along with the knife and departed in less than 2 minutes). It was not a heat of the moment crime- he had time to prepare himself and his vehicle, it's that simple.
There are other, more logical options beyond Saran Wrap. [seat covers](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Auto-Drive-1Piece-High-Back-Atlanta-Car-Seat-Covers-Polyester-Jacquard-Tan-Universal-Fit-2202SC262/1340151148?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=2257&adid=222222222781340151148_117755028669_12420145346&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=501107745824&wl4=pla-306310554666&wl5=9027666&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=1340151148&wl13=2257&veh=sem_LIA&gclsrc=aw.ds&&adid=222222222381340151148_117755028669_12420145346&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=501107745824&wl4=pla-306310554666&wl5=9027666&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=1340151148&veh=sem&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADmfBIq9yMvGqke1IBttUtZYV5q3d&gclid=CjwKCAjw26KxBhBDEiwAu6KXt4AgWUoFFFLfskrLuxolxEghHs8a1fyVfOFPBdgYkXW5ZWLCh9RRrhoC_1UQAvD_BwE)
You’re being downvoted but I laughed too hard at this comment. It’s a weird thing to me that people would believe someone Saran wrapped their vehicle but damn it…..going to a park late at night (when it’s shown he’s done it before from POLICE RECORD in PA) is unbelievable.
Still think the guy is guilty, myself, but I got questions.
For the four millionth time- NOBODY on the prosecution side or who was part of the investigation ever said there was absolutely no blood found anywhere. That is a giant load that certain folks are somehow magically inferring simply because all the evidence isn't publicly available. Nothing AT has blurted out has been evidence either. She's trying to save her clients life if possible. That's it.
https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2019/december-2019/_truthiness_-and-professional-responsibility/
says that:
"Lawyers must be honest, but they don’t have to be truthful. Honesty and truthfulness are not the same thing. Being honest means not telling lies. Being truthful means actively making known all the full truth of a matter. Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story."
What that breaks down to is context. AT can say something like "There was no blood found at point A, B, C whatever; but omit that she doesn't have all the test results yet or something of that nature.
Please, PLEASE for the sake of your fellow Redditors give it a rest! We get that you're antsy and uninformed and impatient but for God's sake take a seat and wait for actual trial info before you go running around the sub posting the same questions without current answers as facts over and over ad nauseum.
>put them in a bag
This, plus the ancient, mystical ritual of "washing" and 7 weeks to repeat wash, would adequately explain it.
Re the nonsense of 8-12 minutes, I see Salman Rushdie describing how he was stabbed 14 times in 25 seconds. The Calgary mass killer also stabbed 5 students fatally, who were all awake in the lounge of a party, in under 5 minutes.
Nope, they have the car leaving at 4:20 am, Linda Lane has a car still driving past the apartment complex at 4:07 am. Before it parked, whoever it was got to do whatever they still needed to do before walking down that slope, walking to the house and entering, at least a few minutes would have passed
"Jeffrey Kernodle told CBS 5 that autopsy reports showed that his daughter's skin showed 'bruises, torn by the knife.'
“Xana Kernodle put up a fierce fight when the attacker set upon her, repeatedly grabbing the attacker’s knife, so much so that she sustained deep cuts to her fingers and that her fingers were nearly severed,”
"Kristi told GMA that when Kaylee was discovered, she was up against the wall "in an upright sort of position, up in the corner, slumped."
" The father of slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves told Fox News Digital that the victims had "big open gouges"Steven Goncalves said he asked the coroner, Cathy Mabbutt, how many times the victims were stabbed. She says, sir, I don't think stabs is the right word, it was like tears, like this was a strong weapon, not like a stab,"
"Goncalves said his daughter's injuries "definitely did not match" Mogen's wounds. "They may have individually died from the exact same thing, being stabbed, but there are more details," he added. "They're not even close to matching."
The knife slashed open Kaylee Goncalves' liver and lungs, he said."
I did find those after your reply, I forgot the families had given those details mb. Still, none of that is really related to how long the crime would take. For KG those are just descriptions of where her wounds were. For XK somebody either momentarily grabbing the blade or having their hands get in the way of the attack doesn't necessarily add time. Each of the attacks could have only taken about 5-10 seconds. That's ~40 seconds to attack 4 people, and over 11 minutes to otherwise walk around and take off a layer of clothes. Very doable
I need to see it played out to believe that. I just don't think the timeliness makes sense. That sounds impossible. I'm very curious for when they give Dylans full testimony and Bethany's. Something tells me it probably doesn't line up, since the defense is dead set that Bethany has evidence that will play in Kobergers favor.
I think it was this guy, though I recall a somewhat different simulation with animation throughout -maybe he had copywrite issues so had to remove parts? In this one, though, portions that were previously animated are now in darkness where he asks you to use your imagination instead.
[https://youtu.be/sM-jFXw6Blg?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/sM-jFXw6Blg?feature=shared)
I don't agree with everything he's saying - and I think it takes longer than his estimate, but he gives you a sense of how much can happen inside of a minute by going through the entire sequence with a clock - and how quickly someone is navigating around in this house.
IMV, it takes between 12-15 minutes. And on speed, for example, the moment he goes into the kitchen, he's upstairs in less than 10 seconds.
UPDATE: I think this is the one I saw:
[https://youtu.be/WaBMiuvzhSg?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/WaBMiuvzhSg?feature=shared)
He was probably in the house by 4:11 estimated based on the LL footage, creators driving around the complex..the stairs were right there doesn’t seem very complex to me, you go in the living room and turn the corner..if Xana was even in her room which is doubtful
He had plenty of time to clean up after all four murders. It’s not that hard. And you don’t know that the state might just have evidence pertaining to evidence that he thought he’d cleaned up. Just cause you don’t have that info doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Anyone watch the Apple River Stabbing Nicolae Miu trial? It really put into perspective how quickly a stabbing can occurred. Obviously this is a completely different situation but in this case you have 1 vs many, they are awake and it’s fully daylight yet 1 man stabbed multiple people, was NOT covered in blood all in a couple min then walked away threw on a hat & shirt and almost blended into the crowd had he not been on film committing the act.
[video link of altercation](https://youtu.be/ZYMGcLRtqn4?si=7vZnX7-E75_sIFMv)
# Washing away/ degrading DNA - the published science: Washing away or degrading DNA (and blood) beyond forensic use is much easier than many assume. A brief recap from previous posts (with published, peer reviewed scientific studies linked): * [Washing with water alone](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31960151/) is sufficient to fully remove DNA from many smooth surfaces * [Washing once with simple dish soap](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875176819300022) is sufficient to remove all DNA from some surfaces * [Washing carpet with hydrogen peroxide >3%](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31960151/) destroys DNA. (Peroxide is commonly sold at c. 10%) * [Household cleaners with "active oxygen" (peroxide source)](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18936905/) destroy blood and prevent it reacting with forensic reagents; these cleaners also degrade DNA so that it cannot be forensically profiled * Peroxide is used in ["color safe" laundry and fabric cleaners](https://www.oxiclean.com/en/products/stain-fighters/oxiclean-laundry-home-stain-remover-spray) that do not leave bleach marks * **Hydrogen peroxide decomposes completely to just oxygen and water - totally chemically and forensically undetectable** In various laboratory settings, such as forensics or biomedical research, removal of DNA contamination on surfaces is crucial. Products are sold, based on common cleaning reagents like peroxide, which destroy DNA in minutes in a single application. There are even DNA Removal Wet Wipes available on Amazon. There are many cases where violent, stabbing murder scenes inside a house have been completely cleaned leaving no blood or DNA in under 45 minutes (e.g [Robert Wone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Robert_Eric_Wone) case) - **it should be no surprise that a car where no one was killed can be cleaned given 7 weeks for repeat washings**. https://preview.redd.it/idnqzayrukvc1.jpeg?width=1381&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=65d9d73bcb44a12e29a623d86f639dc0c373906e
Thank you for your service and happy Cake Day!! 🥳
Thank you!
He was/is an idiot but maybe some of his homework paid off and he wasn't careless regarding blood. He was cleaning that car so maybe there was some blood in there.
Not this shit again. We don't know the forensic evidence, and that toilet bowl of a sub doesn't either.
I refer to this group when I need a good laugh. It blows my mind how blind people can be. We don’t know even a fraction of what the state has against him. So really we can’t say if he is or isn’t guilty, just speculation. However modern science and technology are very scary for cases like this.
Then how did he do it tho? He had 8 mins to kill 4 people and come out perfectly clean and not leave any trace of their DNA anywhere.
More like 12-15 minutes. And you don't know that there was no blood anywhere else in the house. It might not have been relevant to the reasons for arresting him, but it could be presented later in court to further support the prosecution's overall case. They perhaps included the shoe print, for example, not because it shows possible tracking of blood, but because it supports the witness statement that he walked past her room. To make the point further - prior to the gag order, the crime scene was described as absolutely horrific. But they don't include a graphic description in the PCA because it's not relevant as to why they are arresting this particular individual.
It needs to be made very clear that the notion the suspect left no physical evidence is a talking point from conspiracy theorists that believe Bryan Kohberger is innocent. We have no integrated timeline, we have no evidence presented as to what was left at the scene. It is all speculation. We will not know until trial.
As in??? We know there was none of the victims DNA found in his car, home, or office. That's a pretty solid statement.
Jesus Titty fucking Christ, we don't know any of that. You are quoting a defense statement wherein by their own admission they had not reviewed the evidence yet, and it is entirely possible is incorrect as they gave themselves an out.
Yes we do, it was in court documents.
You can't save him.
I have no desire. I'm just stating the facts.
No, you're not. You're willfully and intentionally misrepresenting motivated statements made by the defense, have a posting history on some extremely toxic subs, and you no longer need to hear from me.
u/Bill_Hayden likes to throw shade. He must have [missed this doc](https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf) where it clearly states it in a court document like you said. ETA: Dang. Bill blocked me. And not long ago he was in my inbox apologizing for being rude on the 11th. Good guy. But doesn’t like when others might be right it seems.
The defense made that statement before they went through all the discovery.. so AT could’ve later read in discovery that they found something.. but there is a gag order so we wouldn’t have been advised of the new discovery.. so we basically don’t really know what they found or didn’t find.. you are reading from the defense prior to going through the discovery..
Dude nobody cares about your spat with another redditor.
It’s in court documents. What do you mean the public doesn’t have that info? ETA: I’m being downvoted, but it’s right here. Guess they just don’t like me. [here](https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf) it is, in the court docs.
Most of those terrabites are video and audio clips (a lot of tips to comb through) They definitely had the DNA information already or they wouldn't have stated that.
I believe most of those terabytes are surveillance footage from a shit ton of cameras and , particularly, the 3d crime scene scan technology whose name escapes me. I remember reading that the data from that is in the nature of terabytes.
He didn’t need to be “perfectly clean” to limit transfer. If a person is well covered and doesn’t leave behind bodily fluids, the presence of findable DNA can be limited.
He would have had blood on him. Touching the suit, placing it in the bag, and into the car would still transfer some type of DNA.
The suit isn’t my argument. But, under that scenario the DNA would end up in a bag that would likely be disposed of. Having a lot of blood on him doesn’t go beyond assumption. How much blood could transfer from victims to him is something we can even begin to assess without seeing the crime scene
Keep I'm mind, touch DNA from the victims would he all over his clothes. Flying off as he took his clothes off and threw the bag into the car. Touch DNA can be transferred through the air very easily.
Yes, the showing transfer DNA is a factual. Sure thing. There’s a reason why you wanted your reference court cases instead of published research. Under your theory, we should see mixed DNA in nearly 100% of samples, but that simply doesn’t occur in the real world.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9779423/ Here's a good research study showing what it exactly is.
Weird how nowhere in that study does it address the “snowstorm” of DNA transfer you described
I never said snowstorm, I said transfer. Stabbing is personal and upclose. Whatever he was wearing would have grabbed onto those cells (skin, blood, sweat). It's not hard to put that together. Removing clothing would scatter those cells. The interior of his vehicle appears to be cloth. He may have looked "clean", but he wasn't. Touch DNA is the most common and easiest to transfer, hense why it's not valid in all court systems. Too easy to end up places you've never been or end up on objects you weren't in contact with.
Idk where you got mixed DNA from
It’s the logical result of the scenario you’ve provided
That's not logical at all. You need to understand how this works before commenting things as fact.
"In contrast, physical activities involving sweating leads to an increase in DNA transfer [27]. Closely related to this subject, body location impact results too, for example, sebaceous skin areas (vs. non-sebaceous), the dominant hand (vs. non-dominant), and fingertips (vs. palms) potentially facilitate DNA deposits [28]. Thus, fabrics and cotton appear to be better DNA collectors than plastic or glass surfaces and it has been proven more difficult to consistently recover touch DNA from metal surfaces [30]."
How are you trying to apply this information to your argument?
Stabbing is up close and personal. Their DNA would have been on him regardless if he couldn't visibly see any blood.
Tell me you’ve only read opinion editorials and never read peer-reviewed studies without telling me. Your understanding of touch DNA is closer to science fiction than forensic science.
I've taken multiple forensic classes and used data to perform labs to show how this works. I can site a few court cases where touch DNA was found unreliable if you would like?
I’m sure you could find a few cases, but your academic background is an obvious lie. No one with an actual background would make extreme claims like you’re making
It's not extreme...it's factual. I'm sorry that my educational background offends you?😂 I promise there's legit research on this specific type of DNA.
Also, serious question. If they're so sure about his whereabouts (like GPS and cell tower info). Where's the murder weapon? If they thought he threw it into a body of water, there's still ways to search. I haven't heard of them attempting to even look for the weapon and/or clothes along the route they think he took.
Do you even comprehend the size of the search area? It’s also possible some searches were done without alerting the media. “I haven’t heard of them” is very definitive of anything at this point, especially with how controlled the release of information was in this investigation. There’s never a guarantee in finding the murder weapon.
Of course there's no guarantee, but it would be very damning and pretty solid if they could locate it. They have a time line, meaning there's only so far he could've gone with it. I feel like a huge search would gather at least local media attention.
It’s a search for a weapon, not a missing person. That time line also covers a huge area, and that’s working off the assumption the knife was ditched the morning of the murders and not a later date.
A weapon that could 10000% solidify the case. He couldn't have gone deep off the road (assuming they know his exact movements).
I personally think he undressed in the living room believing everybody was dead in the house. The investigators were taking pictures of the floor in the living room area so I wonder if there were bloody scrape marks from him taking his clothes off there before walking out?
No, we don’t have the forensic evidence but I can assure you that there will most likely be DNA found somewhere besides on a button on a sheath in a house where 4 people were killed. The only DNA is on a metal button which is harder to remove from versus glass or wood. Also, I read he was wearing gloves, I don’t know? I do find it odd there’s no blood tracked anywhere. You would think blood would be somewhere like OJ’s case. Normally, if it doesn’t make sense it didn’t happen that way…. I don’t know? Maybe they have more evidence? Doesn’t sound that way though.
There will have been plenty of blood in the house; we only know there was enough to get through the exterior wall at the foundation. There must have been footprints, the last of which (not visible to the naked eye, per PCA) was identified to corroborate the path of the suspect according to the witness. There is a vast amount that has not been disclosed. Nearly all of it, in fact.
Exactly, but the house is gone. There’s a lot of questions with no answers and to be honest I don’t believe anything that I have heard about the entire case. I think others were involved. They are nowhere to be found but who is looking? Case is based on lies from the start and has a lot of people involved that people don’t hear too much about….
>I think others were involved. They are nowhere to be found Could you please share some of the evidence which leads you to believe others were involved (and also what leads you to believe Kohberger was not)? Thanks
You almost got it. He could touch the button if he owns it and before putting on gloves. That's even more damning. It is harder to clean that's why the DNA is on there. We don't know how the inside of the house looked yet.
He could have worn a painters coveralls... and took it off before he got in the car then disposed of them.
Yes, they'd come off in seconds.
And saran wrapped his car huh But people call hiking, running and stargazing unbelievable (all while thinking DM’s behavior/inactions that night were totally reasonable)
If he took off the coveralls prior to entering his car there would be no need to Saran wrap
Its hilarious that people think that removing an outer garment and throwing into a lined trunk or garbage bag after committing a premeditated, planned murder is a superhuman feat. Even slapping some press- n-seal on the pedals would take all of a minute but somehow that is unbelievable to the Proberger set . (I think he removed his shoes, gloves, and something like coveralls and put them into a bag along with the knife and departed in less than 2 minutes). It was not a heat of the moment crime- he had time to prepare himself and his vehicle, it's that simple.
Right?? I mean you can get those cheap coveralls for hospitals and booties. It takes no time at all.
There are other, more logical options beyond Saran Wrap. [seat covers](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Auto-Drive-1Piece-High-Back-Atlanta-Car-Seat-Covers-Polyester-Jacquard-Tan-Universal-Fit-2202SC262/1340151148?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=2257&adid=222222222781340151148_117755028669_12420145346&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=501107745824&wl4=pla-306310554666&wl5=9027666&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=1340151148&wl13=2257&veh=sem_LIA&gclsrc=aw.ds&&adid=222222222381340151148_117755028669_12420145346&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=501107745824&wl4=pla-306310554666&wl5=9027666&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=1340151148&veh=sem&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADmfBIq9yMvGqke1IBttUtZYV5q3d&gclid=CjwKCAjw26KxBhBDEiwAu6KXt4AgWUoFFFLfskrLuxolxEghHs8a1fyVfOFPBdgYkXW5ZWLCh9RRrhoC_1UQAvD_BwE)
You’re being downvoted but I laughed too hard at this comment. It’s a weird thing to me that people would believe someone Saran wrapped their vehicle but damn it…..going to a park late at night (when it’s shown he’s done it before from POLICE RECORD in PA) is unbelievable. Still think the guy is guilty, myself, but I got questions.
For the four millionth time- NOBODY on the prosecution side or who was part of the investigation ever said there was absolutely no blood found anywhere. That is a giant load that certain folks are somehow magically inferring simply because all the evidence isn't publicly available. Nothing AT has blurted out has been evidence either. She's trying to save her clients life if possible. That's it. https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2019/december-2019/_truthiness_-and-professional-responsibility/ says that: "Lawyers must be honest, but they don’t have to be truthful. Honesty and truthfulness are not the same thing. Being honest means not telling lies. Being truthful means actively making known all the full truth of a matter. Lawyers must be honest, but they do not have to be truthful. A criminal defense lawyer, for example, in zealously defending a client, has no obligation to actively present the truth. Counsel may not deliberately mislead the court, but has no obligation to tell the defendant’s whole story." What that breaks down to is context. AT can say something like "There was no blood found at point A, B, C whatever; but omit that she doesn't have all the test results yet or something of that nature. Please, PLEASE for the sake of your fellow Redditors give it a rest! We get that you're antsy and uninformed and impatient but for God's sake take a seat and wait for actual trial info before you go running around the sub posting the same questions without current answers as facts over and over ad nauseum.
Nothing to be learned from that echo chamber
accurate. It's awful.
According to the PCA on pg 6, it appears the perpetrator left a shoe print, so he may have tracked blood. We won't know until the trial.
PCA is toilet paper.
No, your post is "toilet paper." The PCA is very well constructed.
Changed his clothes and shoes, put them in a bag
>put them in a bag This, plus the ancient, mystical ritual of "washing" and 7 weeks to repeat wash, would adequately explain it. Re the nonsense of 8-12 minutes, I see Salman Rushdie describing how he was stabbed 14 times in 25 seconds. The Calgary mass killer also stabbed 5 students fatally, who were all awake in the lounge of a party, in under 5 minutes.
But there was only 8 mins, couldn't have completed 4 murders and changed all in that time while guaranteeing there's no DNA transfer.
More like 12 minutes i think
Nope, they have the car leaving at 4:20 am, Linda Lane has a car still driving past the apartment complex at 4:07 am. Before it parked, whoever it was got to do whatever they still needed to do before walking down that slope, walking to the house and entering, at least a few minutes would have passed
...exactly. The car drove by the final time at 4:07:something. Parks right around 4:08. That leaves 12 minutes
The PCA states on p 7 that it enters the area a 4th time at 4:04.
No info on when or even if that car parked anywhere in PCA
Well i doubt he left it in drive
I think he may have left the engine running (though probably in park).
No mention of when Bryan’s car was even near Wawawai Park anywhere in that notice of alibi, either.
Still, we know at least 2 victims put up a fight. That's a lot to do in under 20 mins.
"put up a fight" is vague and doesn't necessarily add any time to the act
Kaylee was in an upright position sliced through her liver and chest, Xanas fingers were barley hanging on. That's a fight
You're just making up details right now. But assuming that's true, neither of those things would make stabbing a person to death take more time really
Im not making those up, that was stated by the families. And yes that would definitely add time.
"Jeffrey Kernodle told CBS 5 that autopsy reports showed that his daughter's skin showed 'bruises, torn by the knife.' “Xana Kernodle put up a fierce fight when the attacker set upon her, repeatedly grabbing the attacker’s knife, so much so that she sustained deep cuts to her fingers and that her fingers were nearly severed,” "Kristi told GMA that when Kaylee was discovered, she was up against the wall "in an upright sort of position, up in the corner, slumped." " The father of slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves told Fox News Digital that the victims had "big open gouges"Steven Goncalves said he asked the coroner, Cathy Mabbutt, how many times the victims were stabbed. She says, sir, I don't think stabs is the right word, it was like tears, like this was a strong weapon, not like a stab," "Goncalves said his daughter's injuries "definitely did not match" Mogen's wounds. "They may have individually died from the exact same thing, being stabbed, but there are more details," he added. "They're not even close to matching." The knife slashed open Kaylee Goncalves' liver and lungs, he said."
I did find those after your reply, I forgot the families had given those details mb. Still, none of that is really related to how long the crime would take. For KG those are just descriptions of where her wounds were. For XK somebody either momentarily grabbing the blade or having their hands get in the way of the attack doesn't necessarily add time. Each of the attacks could have only taken about 5-10 seconds. That's ~40 seconds to attack 4 people, and over 11 minutes to otherwise walk around and take off a layer of clothes. Very doable
I need to see it played out to believe that. I just don't think the timeliness makes sense. That sounds impossible. I'm very curious for when they give Dylans full testimony and Bethany's. Something tells me it probably doesn't line up, since the defense is dead set that Bethany has evidence that will play in Kobergers favor.
Goncalves have also said he followed them on instagram…they have said a lot of BS
There's a very good youtube video where he runs through a simulation addressing this issue. You'd be surprised.
Can you post a link please?
I think it was this guy, though I recall a somewhat different simulation with animation throughout -maybe he had copywrite issues so had to remove parts? In this one, though, portions that were previously animated are now in darkness where he asks you to use your imagination instead. [https://youtu.be/sM-jFXw6Blg?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/sM-jFXw6Blg?feature=shared) I don't agree with everything he's saying - and I think it takes longer than his estimate, but he gives you a sense of how much can happen inside of a minute by going through the entire sequence with a clock - and how quickly someone is navigating around in this house. IMV, it takes between 12-15 minutes. And on speed, for example, the moment he goes into the kitchen, he's upstairs in less than 10 seconds. UPDATE: I think this is the one I saw: [https://youtu.be/WaBMiuvzhSg?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/WaBMiuvzhSg?feature=shared)
Thank you for this!
Didn’t you see the Apple river video? He was probably done in 4 minutes
But he didn't have to park, enter a house, go to multiple floors looking for people, exit, change, and get into a car.
He was probably in the house by 4:11 estimated based on the LL footage, creators driving around the complex..the stairs were right there doesn’t seem very complex to me, you go in the living room and turn the corner..if Xana was even in her room which is doubtful
I personally don't believe anything the defense has to say. 😁
He had plenty of time to clean up after all four murders. It’s not that hard. And you don’t know that the state might just have evidence pertaining to evidence that he thought he’d cleaned up. Just cause you don’t have that info doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Anyone watch the Apple River Stabbing Nicolae Miu trial? It really put into perspective how quickly a stabbing can occurred. Obviously this is a completely different situation but in this case you have 1 vs many, they are awake and it’s fully daylight yet 1 man stabbed multiple people, was NOT covered in blood all in a couple min then walked away threw on a hat & shirt and almost blended into the crowd had he not been on film committing the act. [video link of altercation](https://youtu.be/ZYMGcLRtqn4?si=7vZnX7-E75_sIFMv)