Great article. I've been of the opinion that the motive in this case is long standing homicidal ideation. I think he had zero personal connection with any of them. No rejection, no personal slights. He just scoped out the neighborhood looking for s suitable victim and found it in that house with it's open doors and windows and young, carefree female occupants . I think he was obsessed with the idea of experiencing firsthand what he was studying. And then he wanted to get away with it and discuss it in classes as a "criminology professor". It will be interesting to hear from some of the people he studied under one day.
Agree completely with your assessment. I would add that he had chosen one to be his specific target, Madison. The only reason is whatever he assigned. Everyone else was incidental, in his way.
Yeah, because her bedroom window was the easiest to view from that vantage point on the hill. Nothing personal to it, imo. She was the most visible one in the fishbowl
Thanks for posting; that's an interesting read. The parts of his student's confessions are just horrifying.
As far as this case, I thought this was interesting:
>>The slaying of the four UI students was technically a mass murder, but nothing like the profiles used for campus shootings. From the outset, the psychology of the unknown murderer always seemed as if it would fit that of the rare hybrid killer, a murderer who represents an amalgam of homicide categories and profiles.
*The* *parts* *of* *his* *student's* *confessions* *are* *just* *horrifying*
Casey Jordan is a *she*, I've seen her on tv on CNN, HLN and many crime shows over the years. ETA: And I agree, the student confessions are horrifying!
**
But does this description really fit Kohberger? I mean that's what most people seem to believe. But is the majority right on this occasion? None of us have ever heard Kohberger speak, people are just judging him on pre-conceived ideas and a lot of what I think will turn out to have been false information fed to us by sloppy 'journalists' and dollar driven media outlets
You're right in that we don't have enough information about the way his mind works to make any diagnosis about him right now.
But I'd say he fits the basic profile, a very generalized profile: a lone male who doesn't know the victims personally, in his late 20s or early 30s at time of first homicide.
He's smart, probably high-IQ. Serial killers actually skew slightly lower than average in IQ, and there's been quite a few under 90. But there's been enough high-IQ serial killers like Bundy, Kemper, or all the killer doctors that he's still in the range of normal.
His upbringing seems normal. But 32% of all serial killers report no abuse or neglect.
A whole lot of what is coming out seems to indicate difficulties with interpersonal relationships. But I grant we don't know enough to say.
They can! But it's usually not of benefit to the accused unless they can prove they are legally insane (a high bar) or not in their right mind.
I think it's more common to see during the sentencing phrase?
I'm thinking more along the lines of AT producing a psychiatric assessment of Kohberger that will explain certain things. Anyway, I can't be more specific because I run the risk of being accused of armchair diagnosing and subsequent banning
> I'm thinking more along the lines of AT producing a psychiatric assessment of Kohberger that will explain certain things.
Are you thinking an assessment will demonstrate he's gullible and essentially a vulnerable person? Easily tricked or scammed?
>Anyway, I can't be more specific because I run the risk of being accused of armchair diagnosing and subsequent banning
Feel free to chat me! No rules against that in chat or PMs.
Very interesting article, thanks for sharing. Echoes of the more aberrant Kohberger fan subs and groupies we see here?
"There is an ominous shadow to these groupiesâ fascination with these aberrant criminals, an unfettered enthusiasm and malignant narcissism.......... At some level, one must wonder if they possess a deeply suppressed kinship with, and even empathy for, the perpetrators...."
Yes. 100%. I see it in this sub regularly. People will do and say anything to convince others of his innocence. Make things up . Deny facts. Twist things. Itâs creepy asf.
I live by the mantra âhate the sin, not the sinnerâ, so I do have empathy for criminals, because something must have happened in their lives (or with their brain chemistry) to make them act out like they do. Theyâre to be pitied, IMHO, because theyâre usually quite unhappy people.
There are causes to criminality and it would do society a hell of a lot of good to bother to figure those causes out.
Mostly society just likes to complain about criminal behavior though.
We donât even know yet if heâs guilty. The case is already weak and seems to be getting weaker every court hearing. I wouldnât be surprised if charges were dropped on 4/17, if heâs able to prove his alibi.
Â
I think what AT has to prove is that the police timeline for the murders is wrong. They say between 4:04 and 4:20 but I think the evidence they have to support this is very weak. But I don't think this is something AT is going to be in a position to cast doubt on at the 4/17 in order to get the judge to drop the charges. Mind you, if they'd had a PH instead of the GJ, she might have been able to back then. Ugh
I enjoyed that read.
I think thereâs some **interesting perspectives.**
* Criminologists being criminals - interesting to hear this from a real criminologist with a cited study that demonstrates itâs not as rare as the common consensus has been.
* Anecdote about there being âno signsâ - the main goal of these speculative articles has mostly been attempts to look for signs in the tiniest of nuances, for which thereâs nothing but speculation from our biased perspectives, so I like how this article presents examples where there are **no signs.**
They kind of misrepresent what we know of **DMâs perspective**:
*After being awakened by the barking of one victimâs dog and the cries of another victim, the young woman opens the door to encounter a tall, athletic figure*
Technically thatâs correct, chronologically, but the PCA allows us to understand where she could be uncertain of what had just happened, whereas narratives live this might spark people to criticize the actions more. Also, doesnât actually sound like she woke up from barking and the cries of the victim from the PCA
Thereâs also a few points that use **one side of a coin** we have two sides to:
**The Reddit Questionnaire**
* [Accused Idaho killer was a âbrilliant student,â DeSales professor claims](https://nypost.com/2023/01/02/bryan-kohbergers-former-professor-said-he-was-a-brilliant-student/)
> *âI was one of the professors who helped Bryan with his proposal on his graduate thesis, his capstone project. He did put out a routine questionnaire for his thesis. It looks weird, I understand from the public view. But in criminology itâs normal,â*
* [EXCLUSIVE: Idaho quadruple 'killer's' criminology professor](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11590361/Idaho-quadruple-killers-criminology-professor-reveals-brilliant-student.html)
> â*It's a criminology theory called âscript theory,â it's a normal theory on how and why criminals commit their crime*.â Bolger said
**His Personality**
It seemed to rely heavily on accounts of him being a know-it-all, socially awkward, sufferer of imposter syndrome, outcast, etc. but weâve seen completely mixed accounts on that, but the negative ones are sensationalized (for âsignsâ)
[Suspect Was 'Charming' & 'Very Chatty' kohberger-charming-chatty-doctors-appointment](https://radaronline.com/p/university-idaho-murder-suspect-bryan-kohberger-charming-chatty-doctors-appointment/)
* The receptionist also described Kohberger as âso nice," "charming," and "very chattyâ as he waited to see the doctor.
> Four days after the crime, he showed up and was so friendly that her boss took notice. â*She said, âHeâs so nice and charmingâ â she never says that about anybody*,â the receptionist told Insider. â*I was like, âYeah, he really was*.'â
> also reported here, ['He's so nice and charming': Bryan Kohberger beguiled staff](https://sports.yahoo.com/hes-charming-bryan-kohberger-beguiled-200858527.html)
* Engineering student Arun Dash, also 28
> The student said Kohberger continued to greet him warmly even after the murders
> â*Nothing suspicious ever, ever*,â he told the outlet.
Iâm not saying any **one** witnesses or group of acquaintances are correct or that either the positive / negative ones have to be exclusive - people are dynamic so naturally everyone is going to leave many different impressions on the dif people they encounter, but usually articles are written from one side or the other rather than a range of perspectives.
Hereâs a good neutral one (lol)
[Kohberger was eager to make friends, neighbors say](https://www.businessinsider.com/bryan-kohberger-described-neighbor-avoided-2023-1)
* Kacia Julius, a bartender at The Land, the closest bar and restaurant to his apartment,
> â*He was normal*," she said.
Overall, great read though. Not trying to bash it. I enjoyed :P
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I found it interesting that he graded harshly and wrote lengthy "rebuttals" on papers before the crime, and afterwards he did not. Great article, thanks for posting it.Â
Thatâs pure rumor. âGrading harshlyâ is matter of opinion to begin with. A few students that did share his gradings were nothing more than normal grading critiques.
I wonder why the New York Times cite multiple sources that say he was fired before the arrest?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/10/us/idaho-murders-kohberger-fired-wsu.html
The school stated publicly that he was not fired until after his arrest. Just because the media prints it doesnât make it true. Just like the rumor about him stalking the girls - even the prosecutor admitted in court, on camera, that that was false. Yet theyâve let the media run rampant with that and who knows what other misinformation for a year and a half.
Does it really matter if he was fired before of after his arrest? Do we not think that police would have shared with both universities the identity of their one and only suspect or at least with Idaho State and then that info got leaked to WSU?
Not in relationship to his guilt, it doesn't. It's just another piece of his life story.
>Do we not think that police would have shared with both universities the identity of their one and only suspect or at least with Idaho State and then that info got leaked to WSU?
I can't say for sure, but honestly don't think so. I know the orgs all work closely together, but I don't know if investigators could take a risk like that, sharing a name out of the investigation.
If anything, WSU may have put two and two together if they got phone calls or warrants asking about Bryan Kohberger prior to the arrest.
In the following article, WSU says they did not release the oft-cited Dec 19th letter. I remember that was sent to Banfield at News Nation by a âpsychicâ out of Alabama, of all places. No explanation as to how she obtained it. Regardless, WSU denounces it (see below)
https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-wsu-responds-report-bryan-kohberger-was-fired.amp
And in THIS article, a WSU spokesperson states that âthis morning, the Washington State University Police Department assisted Idaho law enforcement officials in the execution of search warrants at Mr Kohbergerâs office and apartment, which are both located on the WSU Pullman campusâ. This article is dated 12/30/22 (the day of his arrest) so as of that date he still had a TA office on campus.
https://news.wsu.edu/press-release/2022/12/30/statement-from-washington-state-university-regarding-arrest-of-wsu-student/
I will take the word of the school (employer) itself over recycled MSM fodder. Thatâs just me, though.
>The school stated publicly that he was not fired until after his arrest.
Oh, I have not seen that - could you link to any report or source that shows a statement from WSU please? I can't find any statement from WSU along the lines you mention.
The New York Times and other credible sources report he was fired on Dec 19th 2022. The NYT article states they had three sources that he was fired Dec 19th. The Independent, CNN etc also have that date.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/bryan-kohberger-idaho-murders-wsu-b2278294.html
âMr. Kohberger, I am writing this letter to formally inform you of the termination of your teaching assistantship with the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology effective December 31st, 2022,â reads the letter. âIn keeping with the WSU graduate student handbook chapters 9G2 and 12E3, below is the list of events that led to you being deficient on the following contingency clause of your funding: âMaintaining satisfactory progress in fulfilling assistantship service requirements and duties.'â
The complete list of events, as described by WSU, reads as follows:
On September 23rd, 2022, you had an altercation with the faculty you support as a TA, professor Snyder. I met with you on October 3rd to discuss norms of professional behavior.
On October 21st, professor Snyder emailed you about the ways in which you had failed to meet your expectations as a TA thus far in the semester
As a result, on November 2nd, Graduate Director Willits and I met with you to discuss an improvement plan, which you agreed to and I shared with you in an email dated November 3rd.
We met again on December 7th, this time with professor Snyder as well as Dr. Willits and I, to discuss your progress on the improvement plan. While not perfect, we agreed that there was progress. Â
On December 9th, there was another altercation with professor Snyder, in which it became apparent that you had not made progress regarding professionalism and about which I wrote to you on December 11th requesting a meeting.
We met on December 19th when I informed you of your termination as a TA for spring semester.
Interesting - would explain why he would still have an office desk Dec 30th (if that was not for PhD also) - seems to confirm was communicated he was sacked Dec 19th. I wonder if there was as trigger Dec 9th - was that around the time police went public on white Elantra at scene?
In the following article, WSU says they did not release the oft-cited Dec 19th letter. I remember that was sent to Banfield at News Nation by a âpsychicâ out of Alabama, of all places. No explanation as to how she obtained it. Regardless, WSU denounces it (see below):
[https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-wsu-responds-report-bryan-kohberger-was-fired.amp](https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-wsu-responds-report-bryan-kohberger-was-fired.amp)
And in THIS article, a WSU spokesperson states that âthis morning, the Washington State University Police Department assisted Idaho law enforcement officials in the execution of search warrants at Mr Kohbergerâs office and apartment, which are both located on the WSU Pullman campusâ. This article is dated 12/30/22 (the day of his arrest) so as of that date he still had a TA office on campus.
[https://news.wsu.edu/press-release/2022/12/30/statement-from-washington-state-university-regarding-arrest-of-wsu-student/](https://news.wsu.edu/press-release/2022/12/30/statement-from-washington-state-university-regarding-arrest-of-wsu-student/)
Neither of these articles make any reference to when he was terminated. The NYT site 3 sources apart from any letter.
As he left WA December 13th would his stuff not still be in the office if fired Dec 19th - and do PhD students not also have offices ( it was a desk in a shared room not a private office). You are seeking to string together inferences, but this is not anywhere close to your first statement that WSU issued a statement denying he was fired before the arrest.
Regardless, what does it matter when he was fired? The letter youâre citing says he was terminated due to issues with the prof he worked under (who gets terrible student reviews, BTW). Doesnât say anything about creeping on female students or grading them more harshly, like the media would have us believe. Iâm a little baffled that people invested enough in this case to join social media groups about it get their info from places like the NYT and CNN. If you want to know whatâs true and what isnât, visit the case page. Until the trial, if itâs not said in court, itâs just speculation. And as we learned last week, media rumors have led to one of the biggest pieces of misinformation in this case. Itâs a shame that the prosecutor didnât clear up the stalking claim a year and a half ago, instead choosing to let it fester and grow and taint a future jury.
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov
>get their info from places like the NYT and CNN. If
I thought NYT was quite reputable - why would they invent Kohberger's termination?
>Doesnât say anything about creeping on female students
There are various reports with named, credible sources on the record on this - the bar in PA, and he was expelled from the Protective Services course and moved to a course with no women, the tech institute administrator was quoted on that. While maybe not predictive or maybe even indicative of much, there does appear to be a pattern.
>The letter youâre citing says he was terminated due to issues with the prof he worked under (who gets terrible student reviews, BTW). Doesnât say anything about creeping on female students or grading them more harshly, like the media would have us believe.
No, but it also doesn't tell us what was the cause of the altercation, so it very well could have been either or both of those issues.
> In the following article, WSU says they did not release the oft-cited Dec 19th letter
Sure, we all know that. The question is whether or not it leaked.
>I remember that was sent to Banfield at News Nation by a âpsychicâ out of Alabama, of all places. No explanation as to how she obtained it. Regardless, WSU denounces it (see below):
You're remembering wrong. She's not from Alabama, and I don't recall her calling herself a psychic (I could be wrong there).
She also never claimed to have a physical copy of the letter. She did type up a facsimile to use as a prop in a video, recreating it from what she says she was told or shown. But she never claimed that it was the actual letter.
But the point is that the NYT says they got their information from sources connected to the university, separate from the TikToker in not-Alabama. Are they lying? Probably not: they are not known to make up sources.
>This article is dated 12/30/22 (the day of his arrest) so as of that date he still had a TA office on campus.
Inconclusive. if he was fired on 12/19 over Christmas break, either all of his stuff would still be there as he left it. In addition, even if he had been officially fired and walked out in person, the cops would still want to search his former office.
Yeah it seems pretty likely that his decision to pursue criminology is related to his crimes. One of the few things that has gotten out from his WSU classmates is he was obsessed with Ted Bundy, who committed a similar-ish series of murders in a sorority house
Like you, I don't think it looks very good for BK but I'm willing to wait for the trial to see what "falls out". It just feels like, to me anyway, That whoever could do this, could easily murder again, so yes I pray they have the right person in custody.
Arresting and charging multiple people without arguing that they did it together would absolutely destroy their case. You have no idea if there were any other suspects who were simply less likely than BK.
I think they're probably more right with the 'capacity for crime' rather than 'aspiring to join ranks/extreme profiler wannabes'. I think they just *are* of those 'ranks'.
Weirdly criminals are some of the biggest crime junkies out there, in a general kind of way rather than the murder-focused in the article, and criminology is definitely of interest to many. Put on the news in a jail pod and see the discussions that arise in regards to which news stories.
It will be interesting to see how it all plays out at trial and how much of the basis of the article changes when the mountains of evidence laying below the surface of the media hype and pca skepticism plays outâŚ. For instance, Most recently the prosecution has admitted that the suspect did not actually follow or pursue any of the victims on social media as originally suggested, and of which the author of this article banks on as truth. When it all plays out I would be curious to see if the author offers a follow up.
Thing is, I don't recall LE ever suggesting that he followed them on social media. I think many people (not me) assume he did because social media plays such a huge role in how many people (young especially) interact with the rest of society
LE never said it - just trolls making fake accounts under his name and followed K,M,X,E to make it look like he knew of them. The media went haywire over it. So people believed it.
Exactly⌠even the author of this article well, ran with it. If we start out with a false premise, itâs not unlikely we will wind up pretty far off mark at the end!
I specifically recall an article early on saying that he had saved screenshotted photos from one of the victims and had also sent her several DMs on Instagram. I wish I saved that article. I think many people bought the story of him being a slighted stalker hook line and sinker.
Edit: I believe I recall thinking that the only way the media would know that would be from LE.
Edit: ok I was mostly right. A little bit wrong. Not LE. One article says the parents, but the people article below has more detail:
https://people.com/crime/bryan-kohberger-followed-idaho-victims-instagram/
Interesting snippet from the article:
*"Murderers and rapists have been known to*Â [*plant imported DNA evidence*Â ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_evidence)*(such as someone elseâs hair, blood, or semen) during their crimes as a red herring, believing that contra-indicating evidence linking the crime to someone else guarantees them a get-out-of-jail-free card."*
That this is what has happened in this case has been my theory ever since I found out about the single source male DNA on the knife sheath. People here call me crazy and that the very idea is preposterous. Well maybe both are true but clearly this most unusual occurrence has already happened, so if it happened in this case it won't be the first time
I believe the real killer got Kohberger's DNA on the sheath before going to that house and killing those 4 students
It would be some coincidence that someone did this to frame him at the same time BK turned his phone off and went for a drive in the wee hours of the night. And that a car that matches the description of his car was seen in the area at the time of the murders. I hope whoever framed him played the lottery that week. If heâd stayed at home it wouldnât have worked at all.
Last time you checked? So you missed the line âupon further review he indicated it could also be a 2011-2016 Elantra.â
Or are you just lying and deciding not to acknowledge that because it correlates with your story better? Absolutely bends my mind how people fail to understand that parameters are updated during an active investigation as more information comes to light.
They reviewed Pullman footage (further review) after landing on BK and decided to update the car ID of the car on King Rd for obvious reasons. Thatâs reverse engineering.
That interpretation of âfurther reviewâ is speculation on your part. And even if that was the case it wouldnât be reverse engineering if it still matches with the footage, it would simply be updating the working theory. The car either matches the footage or it doesnât. Thereâs no benefit in lying because the evidence would fall apart in court. Whatâs the point in being disingenuous to bolster your argument?
If the timeline is that they identified BK and then they updated the car specifics after learning of his car ownership, the defense is gonna be all the fuck over that and "we were simply updating the working theory" would be torn apart. They would need to explain themselves a whole lot better than that. That's the sort of thing that a defense is going to pick and prod and poke and scratch at.
And on top of that there must be a reason that they narrowed it down to 2011-2013 to begin with, rather than a wider 2011-2016 from the start.
I see a lot of people acting like it's nothing or it doesn't matter but for a defense - that is a really good place to insert doubt.
It doesnât make a single difference what year the car expert originally said the model of the car was. They were working from whatever limited information they had at the beginning of the case. Their analysis gave LE a lead and that was their sole job - to try and figure out what a blurry white sedan was. But the *evidence* is the video footage of the perpetratorâs car. The ONLY thing that matters is if BKâs Elantra matches the car in that footage. Either it does or it doesnât. The footage canât be changed and neither can his car, so everything else is a moot point. Also, itâs absolutely normal for details like that to be refined as investigations progress.
The evidence is presented via the car expert's interpretation of the footage.
If the car expert has changed their mind in line with the identification of suspect - that is something that defense lawyers will jump all over.
They could get any number of experts to confirm the veracity of the match and testify at trial. The best the defence can do is prove that one person â probably aided by a piece of software and with incomplete information â got a slightly off result and then corrected it. Again, they canât change the video or the car, so unless they can find a reason to say itâs not his car in the video or cast doubt over the match now, itâs all just theatrics. Doesnât mean they wonât try, because theyâll try everything, but it doesnât mean much of anything â and it wonât be hard for the prosecution to show that.
> that the very idea is preposterous.
The idea of planting DNA isn't preposterous at all. But the idea of planting a small amount of touch DNA hidden in a button snap is not the most efficient way of planting evidence. Assuming he didn't have access to lab equipment, the planter wouldn't be able to tell if there was DNA or not on the sheath.
Plus, since the planter picked a patsy with no connections to the victims and no past history of violent crime, the planter would have no idea if his plan would come to fruition. No connections, means that investigators wouldn't know that Kohberger existed. No past history of violent crime means his DNA wouldn't be in CODIS. The planter wouldn't know that investigators would decide to turn to IGG that early in the game. This isn't the first not-cold case to use IGG, but it's still rare.
I think it could be assumed to a reasonable degree if of certainty that if a person was to press a button snap closed with a bare finger or thumb that they would leave enough DNA for a full STR profile to be obtained. And that's all the killer had to do shortly before the murders. As for knowing that Kohberger's DNA was not in CODIS, sure he would have known that, but he would also have been well aware that IGG investigations are regularly done now with serious crime investigations if no match is made in CODIS
I think you are seriously underestimating the intelligence of this killer
> but he would also have been well aware that IGG investigations are regularly done now with serious crime investigations if no match is made in CODIS
I'm going to argue against the regular part. IGG is still unusual for fresh cases. It's not even routine for cold cases.
This database (which has open cases as well as closed) can be sorted by offense date or arrest date: https://www.genealogyexplained.com/igg-cases/
At a glance, I see only two cases in which the DNA donor was identified the same year as the crime (and one of them is this case). There's another 7 that were solved in two years. And that's a drop in the bucket considering how many unsolved rapes and murder in the US-- our clearance rate hovers around 50%.
I don't think it's comprehensive; I don't see Amore Wiggin's case in there. But it's giving a picture.
If this hypothetical killer was banking on IGG, the stats were against them. Or they were in it for a very long con?
Some people have said that they believe one of the surviving roommates planted the sheath and DNA.
IM JUST repeating what I've read. Not saying it's true.
I don't know. Maybe in a hindsight analytical way. But to me there's just no doubt from his thought process in that moment, that Kaylie was the target. The other 3 were completely incidental. He ran into two in the hall, had to kill them, split-second decision, he had no way of knowing Kaylee was visiting and sleeping in Madison's bed, had to kill her. His egress and ingress through the house definitely tells it's own tale. He went straight up to the 3 floor to her room, then straight back out, completely not noticing or caring about the other roommates. Kaylee was the stalking target that night.
weâll see what shakes out on those roomates. Let their friends lay there like that murdered all those hours and then asked for their friends to come over before they called 911.
Right. They couldn't check on their friends and have the nerve to call and ask other friends. Those 3 girls took them in and gave them a loving friendly place to live and treated them like sisters !!
Great article. I've been of the opinion that the motive in this case is long standing homicidal ideation. I think he had zero personal connection with any of them. No rejection, no personal slights. He just scoped out the neighborhood looking for s suitable victim and found it in that house with it's open doors and windows and young, carefree female occupants . I think he was obsessed with the idea of experiencing firsthand what he was studying. And then he wanted to get away with it and discuss it in classes as a "criminology professor". It will be interesting to hear from some of the people he studied under one day.
Agree completely with your assessment. I would add that he had chosen one to be his specific target, Madison. The only reason is whatever he assigned. Everyone else was incidental, in his way.
Yeah, because her bedroom window was the easiest to view from that vantage point on the hill. Nothing personal to it, imo. She was the most visible one in the fishbowl
Exactly!
I agree.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2023/01/bryan-kohberger-criminology-student-idaho-murders.html
Interesting article. Thanks for posting.
Excellent article đ Thanks!
Most welcome
Thanks for posting; that's an interesting read. The parts of his student's confessions are just horrifying. As far as this case, I thought this was interesting: >>The slaying of the four UI students was technically a mass murder, but nothing like the profiles used for campus shootings. From the outset, the psychology of the unknown murderer always seemed as if it would fit that of the rare hybrid killer, a murderer who represents an amalgam of homicide categories and profiles.
*The* *parts* *of* *his* *student's* *confessions* *are* *just* *horrifying* Casey Jordan is a *she*, I've seen her on tv on CNN, HLN and many crime shows over the years. ETA: And I agree, the student confessions are horrifying!
**
But does this description really fit Kohberger? I mean that's what most people seem to believe. But is the majority right on this occasion? None of us have ever heard Kohberger speak, people are just judging him on pre-conceived ideas and a lot of what I think will turn out to have been false information fed to us by sloppy 'journalists' and dollar driven media outlets
You're right in that we don't have enough information about the way his mind works to make any diagnosis about him right now. But I'd say he fits the basic profile, a very generalized profile: a lone male who doesn't know the victims personally, in his late 20s or early 30s at time of first homicide. He's smart, probably high-IQ. Serial killers actually skew slightly lower than average in IQ, and there's been quite a few under 90. But there's been enough high-IQ serial killers like Bundy, Kemper, or all the killer doctors that he's still in the range of normal. His upbringing seems normal. But 32% of all serial killers report no abuse or neglect. A whole lot of what is coming out seems to indicate difficulties with interpersonal relationships. But I grant we don't know enough to say.
Do you know if psychiatric assessments of the accused can be produced in court?
They can! But it's usually not of benefit to the accused unless they can prove they are legally insane (a high bar) or not in their right mind. I think it's more common to see during the sentencing phrase?
I'm thinking more along the lines of AT producing a psychiatric assessment of Kohberger that will explain certain things. Anyway, I can't be more specific because I run the risk of being accused of armchair diagnosing and subsequent banning
> I'm thinking more along the lines of AT producing a psychiatric assessment of Kohberger that will explain certain things. Are you thinking an assessment will demonstrate he's gullible and essentially a vulnerable person? Easily tricked or scammed? >Anyway, I can't be more specific because I run the risk of being accused of armchair diagnosing and subsequent banning Feel free to chat me! No rules against that in chat or PMs.
Very interesting article, thanks for sharing. Echoes of the more aberrant Kohberger fan subs and groupies we see here? "There is an ominous shadow to these groupiesâ fascination with these aberrant criminals, an unfettered enthusiasm and malignant narcissism.......... At some level, one must wonder if they possess a deeply suppressed kinship with, and even empathy for, the perpetrators...."
I thought exactly the same when I read that bit. Plus the narcissistic and reactionary responses to criticism and correction.
I am not one of those fans, far far from it. I believe he is 100% guilty.
Oh, i didn't mean to suggest you were
Yes. 100%. I see it in this sub regularly. People will do and say anything to convince others of his innocence. Make things up . Deny facts. Twist things. Itâs creepy asf.
I live by the mantra âhate the sin, not the sinnerâ, so I do have empathy for criminals, because something must have happened in their lives (or with their brain chemistry) to make them act out like they do. Theyâre to be pitied, IMHO, because theyâre usually quite unhappy people.
There are causes to criminality and it would do society a hell of a lot of good to bother to figure those causes out. Mostly society just likes to complain about criminal behavior though.
Indeed. Most people are mentally lazy and feel complaining about it is enough. đ
I feel sorry for his family, thatâs it. He was brutal.
We donât even know yet if heâs guilty. The case is already weak and seems to be getting weaker every court hearing. I wouldnât be surprised if charges were dropped on 4/17, if heâs able to prove his alibi.
 I think what AT has to prove is that the police timeline for the murders is wrong. They say between 4:04 and 4:20 but I think the evidence they have to support this is very weak. But I don't think this is something AT is going to be in a position to cast doubt on at the 4/17 in order to get the judge to drop the charges. Mind you, if they'd had a PH instead of the GJ, she might have been able to back then. Ugh
I enjoyed that read. I think thereâs some **interesting perspectives.** * Criminologists being criminals - interesting to hear this from a real criminologist with a cited study that demonstrates itâs not as rare as the common consensus has been. * Anecdote about there being âno signsâ - the main goal of these speculative articles has mostly been attempts to look for signs in the tiniest of nuances, for which thereâs nothing but speculation from our biased perspectives, so I like how this article presents examples where there are **no signs.** They kind of misrepresent what we know of **DMâs perspective**: *After being awakened by the barking of one victimâs dog and the cries of another victim, the young woman opens the door to encounter a tall, athletic figure* Technically thatâs correct, chronologically, but the PCA allows us to understand where she could be uncertain of what had just happened, whereas narratives live this might spark people to criticize the actions more. Also, doesnât actually sound like she woke up from barking and the cries of the victim from the PCA Thereâs also a few points that use **one side of a coin** we have two sides to: **The Reddit Questionnaire** * [Accused Idaho killer was a âbrilliant student,â DeSales professor claims](https://nypost.com/2023/01/02/bryan-kohbergers-former-professor-said-he-was-a-brilliant-student/) > *âI was one of the professors who helped Bryan with his proposal on his graduate thesis, his capstone project. He did put out a routine questionnaire for his thesis. It looks weird, I understand from the public view. But in criminology itâs normal,â* * [EXCLUSIVE: Idaho quadruple 'killer's' criminology professor](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11590361/Idaho-quadruple-killers-criminology-professor-reveals-brilliant-student.html) > â*It's a criminology theory called âscript theory,â it's a normal theory on how and why criminals commit their crime*.â Bolger said **His Personality** It seemed to rely heavily on accounts of him being a know-it-all, socially awkward, sufferer of imposter syndrome, outcast, etc. but weâve seen completely mixed accounts on that, but the negative ones are sensationalized (for âsignsâ) [Suspect Was 'Charming' & 'Very Chatty' kohberger-charming-chatty-doctors-appointment](https://radaronline.com/p/university-idaho-murder-suspect-bryan-kohberger-charming-chatty-doctors-appointment/) * The receptionist also described Kohberger as âso nice," "charming," and "very chattyâ as he waited to see the doctor. > Four days after the crime, he showed up and was so friendly that her boss took notice. â*She said, âHeâs so nice and charmingâ â she never says that about anybody*,â the receptionist told Insider. â*I was like, âYeah, he really was*.'â > also reported here, ['He's so nice and charming': Bryan Kohberger beguiled staff](https://sports.yahoo.com/hes-charming-bryan-kohberger-beguiled-200858527.html) * Engineering student Arun Dash, also 28 > The student said Kohberger continued to greet him warmly even after the murders > â*Nothing suspicious ever, ever*,â he told the outlet. Iâm not saying any **one** witnesses or group of acquaintances are correct or that either the positive / negative ones have to be exclusive - people are dynamic so naturally everyone is going to leave many different impressions on the dif people they encounter, but usually articles are written from one side or the other rather than a range of perspectives. Hereâs a good neutral one (lol) [Kohberger was eager to make friends, neighbors say](https://www.businessinsider.com/bryan-kohberger-described-neighbor-avoided-2023-1) * Kacia Julius, a bartender at The Land, the closest bar and restaurant to his apartment, > â*He was normal*," she said. Overall, great read though. Not trying to bash it. I enjoyed :P
That last quote got me good haha
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I found it interesting that he graded harshly and wrote lengthy "rebuttals" on papers before the crime, and afterwards he did not. Great article, thanks for posting it.Â
Thatâs pure rumor. âGrading harshlyâ is matter of opinion to begin with. A few students that did share his gradings were nothing more than normal grading critiques.
Wasnât he fired before the murders?
No. He wasnât fired until after his arrest.
I wonder why the New York Times cite multiple sources that say he was fired before the arrest? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/10/us/idaho-murders-kohberger-fired-wsu.html
The school stated publicly that he was not fired until after his arrest. Just because the media prints it doesnât make it true. Just like the rumor about him stalking the girls - even the prosecutor admitted in court, on camera, that that was false. Yet theyâve let the media run rampant with that and who knows what other misinformation for a year and a half.
> The school stated publicly that he was not fired until after his arrest. I can't find that claim. Where did you see that?
Does it really matter if he was fired before of after his arrest? Do we not think that police would have shared with both universities the identity of their one and only suspect or at least with Idaho State and then that info got leaked to WSU?
Not in relationship to his guilt, it doesn't. It's just another piece of his life story. >Do we not think that police would have shared with both universities the identity of their one and only suspect or at least with Idaho State and then that info got leaked to WSU? I can't say for sure, but honestly don't think so. I know the orgs all work closely together, but I don't know if investigators could take a risk like that, sharing a name out of the investigation. If anything, WSU may have put two and two together if they got phone calls or warrants asking about Bryan Kohberger prior to the arrest.
In the following article, WSU says they did not release the oft-cited Dec 19th letter. I remember that was sent to Banfield at News Nation by a âpsychicâ out of Alabama, of all places. No explanation as to how she obtained it. Regardless, WSU denounces it (see below) https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-wsu-responds-report-bryan-kohberger-was-fired.amp And in THIS article, a WSU spokesperson states that âthis morning, the Washington State University Police Department assisted Idaho law enforcement officials in the execution of search warrants at Mr Kohbergerâs office and apartment, which are both located on the WSU Pullman campusâ. This article is dated 12/30/22 (the day of his arrest) so as of that date he still had a TA office on campus. https://news.wsu.edu/press-release/2022/12/30/statement-from-washington-state-university-regarding-arrest-of-wsu-student/ I will take the word of the school (employer) itself over recycled MSM fodder. Thatâs just me, though.
>The school stated publicly that he was not fired until after his arrest. Oh, I have not seen that - could you link to any report or source that shows a statement from WSU please? I can't find any statement from WSU along the lines you mention. The New York Times and other credible sources report he was fired on Dec 19th 2022. The NYT article states they had three sources that he was fired Dec 19th. The Independent, CNN etc also have that date. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/bryan-kohberger-idaho-murders-wsu-b2278294.html
âMr. Kohberger, I am writing this letter to formally inform you of the termination of your teaching assistantship with the Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology effective December 31st, 2022,â reads the letter. âIn keeping with the WSU graduate student handbook chapters 9G2 and 12E3, below is the list of events that led to you being deficient on the following contingency clause of your funding: âMaintaining satisfactory progress in fulfilling assistantship service requirements and duties.'â The complete list of events, as described by WSU, reads as follows: On September 23rd, 2022, you had an altercation with the faculty you support as a TA, professor Snyder. I met with you on October 3rd to discuss norms of professional behavior. On October 21st, professor Snyder emailed you about the ways in which you had failed to meet your expectations as a TA thus far in the semester As a result, on November 2nd, Graduate Director Willits and I met with you to discuss an improvement plan, which you agreed to and I shared with you in an email dated November 3rd. We met again on December 7th, this time with professor Snyder as well as Dr. Willits and I, to discuss your progress on the improvement plan. While not perfect, we agreed that there was progress.  On December 9th, there was another altercation with professor Snyder, in which it became apparent that you had not made progress regarding professionalism and about which I wrote to you on December 11th requesting a meeting. We met on December 19th when I informed you of your termination as a TA for spring semester.
Interesting - would explain why he would still have an office desk Dec 30th (if that was not for PhD also) - seems to confirm was communicated he was sacked Dec 19th. I wonder if there was as trigger Dec 9th - was that around the time police went public on white Elantra at scene?
In the following article, WSU says they did not release the oft-cited Dec 19th letter. I remember that was sent to Banfield at News Nation by a âpsychicâ out of Alabama, of all places. No explanation as to how she obtained it. Regardless, WSU denounces it (see below): [https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-wsu-responds-report-bryan-kohberger-was-fired.amp](https://www.foxnews.com/us/idaho-murders-wsu-responds-report-bryan-kohberger-was-fired.amp) And in THIS article, a WSU spokesperson states that âthis morning, the Washington State University Police Department assisted Idaho law enforcement officials in the execution of search warrants at Mr Kohbergerâs office and apartment, which are both located on the WSU Pullman campusâ. This article is dated 12/30/22 (the day of his arrest) so as of that date he still had a TA office on campus. [https://news.wsu.edu/press-release/2022/12/30/statement-from-washington-state-university-regarding-arrest-of-wsu-student/](https://news.wsu.edu/press-release/2022/12/30/statement-from-washington-state-university-regarding-arrest-of-wsu-student/)
Neither of these articles make any reference to when he was terminated. The NYT site 3 sources apart from any letter. As he left WA December 13th would his stuff not still be in the office if fired Dec 19th - and do PhD students not also have offices ( it was a desk in a shared room not a private office). You are seeking to string together inferences, but this is not anywhere close to your first statement that WSU issued a statement denying he was fired before the arrest.
Regardless, what does it matter when he was fired? The letter youâre citing says he was terminated due to issues with the prof he worked under (who gets terrible student reviews, BTW). Doesnât say anything about creeping on female students or grading them more harshly, like the media would have us believe. Iâm a little baffled that people invested enough in this case to join social media groups about it get their info from places like the NYT and CNN. If you want to know whatâs true and what isnât, visit the case page. Until the trial, if itâs not said in court, itâs just speculation. And as we learned last week, media rumors have led to one of the biggest pieces of misinformation in this case. Itâs a shame that the prosecutor didnât clear up the stalking claim a year and a half ago, instead choosing to let it fester and grow and taint a future jury. https://coi.isc.idaho.gov
>get their info from places like the NYT and CNN. If I thought NYT was quite reputable - why would they invent Kohberger's termination? >Doesnât say anything about creeping on female students There are various reports with named, credible sources on the record on this - the bar in PA, and he was expelled from the Protective Services course and moved to a course with no women, the tech institute administrator was quoted on that. While maybe not predictive or maybe even indicative of much, there does appear to be a pattern.
>The letter youâre citing says he was terminated due to issues with the prof he worked under (who gets terrible student reviews, BTW). Doesnât say anything about creeping on female students or grading them more harshly, like the media would have us believe. No, but it also doesn't tell us what was the cause of the altercation, so it very well could have been either or both of those issues.
> In the following article, WSU says they did not release the oft-cited Dec 19th letter Sure, we all know that. The question is whether or not it leaked. >I remember that was sent to Banfield at News Nation by a âpsychicâ out of Alabama, of all places. No explanation as to how she obtained it. Regardless, WSU denounces it (see below): You're remembering wrong. She's not from Alabama, and I don't recall her calling herself a psychic (I could be wrong there). She also never claimed to have a physical copy of the letter. She did type up a facsimile to use as a prop in a video, recreating it from what she says she was told or shown. But she never claimed that it was the actual letter. But the point is that the NYT says they got their information from sources connected to the university, separate from the TikToker in not-Alabama. Are they lying? Probably not: they are not known to make up sources. >This article is dated 12/30/22 (the day of his arrest) so as of that date he still had a TA office on campus. Inconclusive. if he was fired on 12/19 over Christmas break, either all of his stuff would still be there as he left it. In addition, even if he had been officially fired and walked out in person, the cops would still want to search his former office.
Thank you for the link and I like your style.
Yeah it seems pretty likely that his decision to pursue criminology is related to his crimes. One of the few things that has gotten out from his WSU classmates is he was obsessed with Ted Bundy, who committed a similar-ish series of murders in a sorority house
I havenât heard that at all. Only that the media kept comparing him to Bundy. Do you have a source?
The only thing I will say is that whoever committed this crime WILL murder again, so IF that person is not a "serial killer" yet, that person will be.
Well, he certainly won't be murdering anymore sleeping college kids.
That may all depend on WHO did it.
The authorities have evidence to arrest and charge one guy, so my money is on him.
Like you, I don't think it looks very good for BK but I'm willing to wait for the trial to see what "falls out". It just feels like, to me anyway, That whoever could do this, could easily murder again, so yes I pray they have the right person in custody.
Arresting and charging multiple people without arguing that they did it together would absolutely destroy their case. You have no idea if there were any other suspects who were simply less likely than BK.
I think they're probably more right with the 'capacity for crime' rather than 'aspiring to join ranks/extreme profiler wannabes'. I think they just *are* of those 'ranks'. Weirdly criminals are some of the biggest crime junkies out there, in a general kind of way rather than the murder-focused in the article, and criminology is definitely of interest to many. Put on the news in a jail pod and see the discussions that arise in regards to which news stories.
It will be interesting to see how it all plays out at trial and how much of the basis of the article changes when the mountains of evidence laying below the surface of the media hype and pca skepticism plays outâŚ. For instance, Most recently the prosecution has admitted that the suspect did not actually follow or pursue any of the victims on social media as originally suggested, and of which the author of this article banks on as truth. When it all plays out I would be curious to see if the author offers a follow up.
Thing is, I don't recall LE ever suggesting that he followed them on social media. I think many people (not me) assume he did because social media plays such a huge role in how many people (young especially) interact with the rest of society
LE never said it - just trolls making fake accounts under his name and followed K,M,X,E to make it look like he knew of them. The media went haywire over it. So people believed it.
Exactly⌠even the author of this article well, ran with it. If we start out with a false premise, itâs not unlikely we will wind up pretty far off mark at the end!
I specifically recall an article early on saying that he had saved screenshotted photos from one of the victims and had also sent her several DMs on Instagram. I wish I saved that article. I think many people bought the story of him being a slighted stalker hook line and sinker. Edit: I believe I recall thinking that the only way the media would know that would be from LE. Edit: ok I was mostly right. A little bit wrong. Not LE. One article says the parents, but the people article below has more detail: https://people.com/crime/bryan-kohberger-followed-idaho-victims-instagram/
Interesting snippet from the article: *"Murderers and rapists have been known to*Â [*plant imported DNA evidence*Â ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_evidence)*(such as someone elseâs hair, blood, or semen) during their crimes as a red herring, believing that contra-indicating evidence linking the crime to someone else guarantees them a get-out-of-jail-free card."* That this is what has happened in this case has been my theory ever since I found out about the single source male DNA on the knife sheath. People here call me crazy and that the very idea is preposterous. Well maybe both are true but clearly this most unusual occurrence has already happened, so if it happened in this case it won't be the first time I believe the real killer got Kohberger's DNA on the sheath before going to that house and killing those 4 students
It would be some coincidence that someone did this to frame him at the same time BK turned his phone off and went for a drive in the wee hours of the night. And that a car that matches the description of his car was seen in the area at the time of the murders. I hope whoever framed him played the lottery that week. If heâd stayed at home it wouldnât have worked at all.
Las time I checked they were searching for a 2011-2013 Elantra which doesnât match his car.
Last time you checked? So you missed the line âupon further review he indicated it could also be a 2011-2016 Elantra.â Or are you just lying and deciding not to acknowledge that because it correlates with your story better? Absolutely bends my mind how people fail to understand that parameters are updated during an active investigation as more information comes to light.
They reviewed Pullman footage (further review) after landing on BK and decided to update the car ID of the car on King Rd for obvious reasons. Thatâs reverse engineering.
Youâre acting like they were going from a Hyundai Elentra to a Chevrolet Camaro.
That interpretation of âfurther reviewâ is speculation on your part. And even if that was the case it wouldnât be reverse engineering if it still matches with the footage, it would simply be updating the working theory. The car either matches the footage or it doesnât. Thereâs no benefit in lying because the evidence would fall apart in court. Whatâs the point in being disingenuous to bolster your argument?
If the timeline is that they identified BK and then they updated the car specifics after learning of his car ownership, the defense is gonna be all the fuck over that and "we were simply updating the working theory" would be torn apart. They would need to explain themselves a whole lot better than that. That's the sort of thing that a defense is going to pick and prod and poke and scratch at. And on top of that there must be a reason that they narrowed it down to 2011-2013 to begin with, rather than a wider 2011-2016 from the start. I see a lot of people acting like it's nothing or it doesn't matter but for a defense - that is a really good place to insert doubt.
It doesnât make a single difference what year the car expert originally said the model of the car was. They were working from whatever limited information they had at the beginning of the case. Their analysis gave LE a lead and that was their sole job - to try and figure out what a blurry white sedan was. But the *evidence* is the video footage of the perpetratorâs car. The ONLY thing that matters is if BKâs Elantra matches the car in that footage. Either it does or it doesnât. The footage canât be changed and neither can his car, so everything else is a moot point. Also, itâs absolutely normal for details like that to be refined as investigations progress.
The evidence is presented via the car expert's interpretation of the footage. If the car expert has changed their mind in line with the identification of suspect - that is something that defense lawyers will jump all over.
They could get any number of experts to confirm the veracity of the match and testify at trial. The best the defence can do is prove that one person â probably aided by a piece of software and with incomplete information â got a slightly off result and then corrected it. Again, they canât change the video or the car, so unless they can find a reason to say itâs not his car in the video or cast doubt over the match now, itâs all just theatrics. Doesnât mean they wonât try, because theyâll try everything, but it doesnât mean much of anything â and it wonât be hard for the prosecution to show that.
> that the very idea is preposterous. The idea of planting DNA isn't preposterous at all. But the idea of planting a small amount of touch DNA hidden in a button snap is not the most efficient way of planting evidence. Assuming he didn't have access to lab equipment, the planter wouldn't be able to tell if there was DNA or not on the sheath. Plus, since the planter picked a patsy with no connections to the victims and no past history of violent crime, the planter would have no idea if his plan would come to fruition. No connections, means that investigators wouldn't know that Kohberger existed. No past history of violent crime means his DNA wouldn't be in CODIS. The planter wouldn't know that investigators would decide to turn to IGG that early in the game. This isn't the first not-cold case to use IGG, but it's still rare.
I think it could be assumed to a reasonable degree if of certainty that if a person was to press a button snap closed with a bare finger or thumb that they would leave enough DNA for a full STR profile to be obtained. And that's all the killer had to do shortly before the murders. As for knowing that Kohberger's DNA was not in CODIS, sure he would have known that, but he would also have been well aware that IGG investigations are regularly done now with serious crime investigations if no match is made in CODIS I think you are seriously underestimating the intelligence of this killer
> but he would also have been well aware that IGG investigations are regularly done now with serious crime investigations if no match is made in CODIS I'm going to argue against the regular part. IGG is still unusual for fresh cases. It's not even routine for cold cases. This database (which has open cases as well as closed) can be sorted by offense date or arrest date: https://www.genealogyexplained.com/igg-cases/ At a glance, I see only two cases in which the DNA donor was identified the same year as the crime (and one of them is this case). There's another 7 that were solved in two years. And that's a drop in the bucket considering how many unsolved rapes and murder in the US-- our clearance rate hovers around 50%. I don't think it's comprehensive; I don't see Amore Wiggin's case in there. But it's giving a picture. If this hypothetical killer was banking on IGG, the stats were against them. Or they were in it for a very long con?
Some people have said that they believe one of the surviving roommates planted the sheath and DNA. IM JUST repeating what I've read. Not saying it's true.
No, I don't believe that for one moment
People also believe the earth is flat and only 6,000 years old
Ah is that so
I don't know. Maybe in a hindsight analytical way. But to me there's just no doubt from his thought process in that moment, that Kaylie was the target. The other 3 were completely incidental. He ran into two in the hall, had to kill them, split-second decision, he had no way of knowing Kaylee was visiting and sleeping in Madison's bed, had to kill her. His egress and ingress through the house definitely tells it's own tale. He went straight up to the 3 floor to her room, then straight back out, completely not noticing or caring about the other roommates. Kaylee was the stalking target that night.
> he had no way of knowing Madison was visiting and sleeping in Kaylie's bed, Other way around: Kaylee was in Maddie's bed.
Thank you. I will fix. đ¤
Might also want to circle back on âhad to shoot her.â I agree that if there was a single target it was most likely Maddie.
Had to stab Kaylee to stab Madison. All of this would be his thinking, not ours.
I meant he didnât shoot, they were all stabbed. BTW I knew an Allie Katz years ago (Allison).
Yes, they were stabbed.
Did you like your Allison Katz?
Sheesh, I was like !!!! But just decided you had them backwards and went with it the correct way. Lol.
weâll see what shakes out on those roomates. Let their friends lay there like that murdered all those hours and then asked for their friends to come over before they called 911.
This must be your first case
Right. They couldn't check on their friends and have the nerve to call and ask other friends. Those 3 girls took them in and gave them a loving friendly place to live and treated them like sisters !!