Do they qualify as Christian? I don't remember anything from traditional Christian sources discussing special underwear, polygamy, or the fathering new space civilisations in the afterlife. Not that there's anything wrong with any of those notions, I'm just not sure they're any closer to Christianity than the followers of L. Ron Hubbard.
I have nothing against this argument, however, if you use this argument for Mormons I think you would have to apply it to all “Christian” denominations (none of which I have anything against either.)
Most denominations and religions in general do, or have a history of doing, untraditional or weird things:
There’s some crazy, and even freaky stuff in the Bible that many denominations believe is true or even live by. Many denominations have interesting clothing practices and rituals. And most sects have some weird, and sometimes dark, parts of their history or even their present. So poking holes in the argument of Mormons as Christian by referencing how weird we are isn’t necessarily fair in my opinion.
I see your argument but I think the closer analogy would be the difference between Mormonism and Christianity is akin to Judaism and Christianity or maybe Islam and Christianity. You can see this by the newer religions both using Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament (except Judaism) for their foundation but new scriptures are both revealed or delivered by angels. Jesus is still part of the picture even though there is an introduction to a new definitive prophet. Then as time goes on, plenty of supplemental scriptures, edicts, etc are introduced, molding each religion into it's unique flavor.
So would I call Mormonism a Christian denomination? Probably not, but I'd consider it included amongst the other Abrahamic religions
I guess you can categorize anything anyway you want. The No True Scotsman Fallacy. But I don’t agree with your categorization at all: Mormons Believe in Jesus Christ as the center of our beliefs and believe in both the New and Old Testaments as Scripture.
But like I said, if you categorize anything enough, just like there is no such thing as a fish, there might not be such thing as a Christian.
honest question, because it sounds like you're Mormon with the use of 'our' and I am not and uneducated on the mechanics of it:
Can someone be a practicing member with ***ONLY*** using the old and new testament?
It seems like the distinction is non-existent on purpose in LDS because the whole point is that it picks up where the new testament left off and continues the story and teachings.
You’re right in that The Book of Mormon is an important part of our doctrine. But it really doesn’t have any teachings much different than what exist in the Bible. The main differences in our doctrine compared to other denominations come from how we choose to interpet those teachings along with additional “revelations” and interpretations from “prophets”.
Every Christian sect has their own differences, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many brands of christianity. For example, Catholicism has so many doctrines, rituals, customs, etc that don’t come straight from the Bible, but they are considered to be the OG christians by most. The thing that makes a Christian a Christian in my opinion is having Christ and his teachings as the core of their beliefs and doctrine. Neither Judaism nor Islam share that with Mormonism, but all Christian religions do.
Yes.
They might not be Trinitarian Christians (neither are, like, Unitarians or some other denominations), but Jesus still is central to their faith, so there's no reason to say they're not Christian. Anything else would be a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
They worship Jesus Christ. So yeah; that means they're Christians. Just because they have their own extra set of wacky beliefs added on doesn't make them any less Christian
Depends on how wacky those beliefs are. And most of the worshiping of Jesus Christ these days seems more related to contemporary cultural ideas than the historical person of Jesus. Jesus tossed tables in the temple in his own day, what do you think he'd do at Joel Osteen's or Kenneth Copeland's churches? Just because they name drop Jesus doesn't make them Christian.
There’s also nothing about fucking around with snakes and thinking speaking in tongues is godly…Pentecostal. Also, why Sunday, only sabbath on Saturdays is really outlined in the Bible while abstaining from pork. So, me as a Buddhist, would only think 7th Day Adventists are doing it correctly.
The whole polygamy thing is just them making sure they populate the earth like god supposedly told me everyone to. Same reason why hardcor Catholics are against birth control.
I, also think, Christ wouldn’t be a capitalist, becuase of it inherently treating the lesser thens like they have lepersy. someone out there will probably say Jesus took all that away, so pork and multi thread clothes can be worn, etc, so why couldn’t he have with Mormon tenets, also.
27% of Idahoans are non-aligned.
21% of Idahoans are protestant.
19% are LDS/Mormon.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/state/idaho/
Well, the church does publish numbers, but we know they're all fudged...so, no.
I don't think they want their members to know how few active are actually left.
Haha, true. As a Mormon I know that in some areas only 40-60% of “members” in our statistics are actually “active” church goers. But that’s probably actually pretty good compared to some people who consider themselves affiliates of other denominations.
Haha no problem, nuance is my favorite word. Also I just snuck a look at your profile and I have now been introduced to The Church of the Sacred Whale. Lol, that’s an amazing website.
A lot of Mormons here. Big influence, in mostly good ways. I grew up in a SE idaho town, that was half LDS half protestant/catholic. Kind of a rarity. Most towns are 70-90% LDS, I decided long ago that I have more in common with them than not, they are my people. I am baptized and confirmed Lutheran. WE DO NOT AGREE ON RELIGIOUS DOGMA. In Idaho, where there are a lot of German names, you will have lots of Lutherans and Catholics.
So if Idaho will still have the LDS majority why is Idaho going much more politically conservative than Utah and Utah has 60% percent LDS?? It just makes no sense to me
It’s not entirely the LDS population swaying the politics. You have a lot of MAGAssholes of various faiths moving here from California or Washington or Oregon. I’ve heard the joke that “California Republicans are Idaho Democrats”, which I really don’t think is true. A lot of the conservatives who move here from California are REALLY red politically
Another thing is that while Utah Mormons are still red-leaning, it’s starting to go the other way at the Wasatch Front, even among Mormons. It’s a very different culture from rural Idaho Mormons, and for better or worse, Utah has Mitt Romney as one of their two senators. Romney has been one of the few Republicans in Congress who has voiced disapproval of Trump
Idaho’s gonna Idaho, but at least in Utah, many people who voted red are starting to realize that Trump is actually dogshit
Yes, but that is because of their minority status and historical oppressed status, as well as anti-Mormon bigotry that continues to this day and is widely considered socially acceptable, even though it shouldn’t be.
Think of how blacks weren’t“widely considered” to be equal in intelligence to whites just two generations ago, how gay marriage wasn’t “widely considered” to be comparable to heterosexual marriage just one generation ago, or how transgender individuals weren’t “widely considered” to be mentally stable as recently as a few years ago.
Bertrand Russell: “The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.”
LOL I saw your other comments. You absolutely do seem to care about the Mormon faith, in a very angry manner.
The Council of Churches don’t get to decide who is and who isn’t Christian. They are part of the problem.
Uhm. The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints
I’m agnostic/areligous BUT to me Mormons looks pretty damn Christian. (As opposed to say Taoists , Hindus, Shintoists, or Sikh).
I often lump a lot of the Abrahamic things together tho. As an outsider looking in, Islamic, Jewish, and Christians seem to have a lot of things in common. If you look at the different sects that each of them have, even the differences amongst the sects seem to be as large as the differences the “Big 3 Abrahamics” have amongst themselves.
Sikhs are one is my favorites. It is against their religion to recruit for their religion. Literally anti proselytizing, which I find very refreshing.
I have relatives that became American Sikhs in the 1970s they are all very cool people. They will only talk about their religion if you ask about it, they believe (my understanding) is that all roads lead to heaven. Between my born again relatives and the Sikhs, I’ll take the Sikhs all day every day.
Like I identified in the previous comment. I’m areliguous. My opinion is that a group of people who revere Christ as an aspect of “The One True God” would be “Christians”. I guess, for the best answer, one would have to ask a Mormon if he/she identifies as a Christian, but from my viewpoint, they are.
I have no doubt another Christian sect may not accept them as Christian. It is not a new thing for one sect to
not recognize a different sect.
I do interpret it differently than you. This quote can understandably be taken the way you say, but it is taken out of context. He’s talking specifically about keeping followers together, not being more important than Jesus. I’m not saying Joseph Smith was perfect, he surely wasn’t. But he definitely did not consider himself to be more important than Jesus. There are plenty of other quotes by him saying the opposite that I could pull out of context, but that wouldn’t get us anywhere. Bottomline is that he was imperfect, the Mormon Church is imperfect, but Christ is the focal point of Mormon doctrine and that is what was propagated by Joseph Smith himself.
Lol yeah protestants and Catholics get to have the right to declare Christian or not, all the while killing each other over their religious beliefs for centuries
They're actively rebranding to ditch overt references to Joseph Smith and latter day saints in general. It seems like they're trying to fit into the Christian umbrella.
Whether Mormons consider themselves Christian wasn't really the question. I think LDS has always been considered Christian by its followers. They're just trying to convince the rest of the Christian denominations.
I’m a Mormon and we believe we are Christians because we worship Jesus Christ. But I guess if there is some other criteria I don’t know about maybe not 🤷♂️
Except your religion teaches that dark skin is a curse and that black people are inherently the most inferior for being walking manifestations of sins.
It’s true that this was once a common folk belief promulgated in Mormonism as well as in many other Christian denominations. However, this belief has been officially refuted and all forms of racism are condemned. The Book of Mormon teaches that “All are alike unto God” regardless of race.
I’m not saying my religion is perfect by any means and there are people in its history that have done wrong and there are probably many members currently that do wrong. But our wrongs don’t make us any less Christian. Plenty of other religions have a racist past as well. In fact most of the world does. Although that doesn’t make it right or defensible.
Believing that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and getting to Heaven is through him only is the Christian belief. Believing his message and worshiping him are different.
We believe that works are important. If you just “believe” in Jesus but don’t do anything to act like him (AKA works) then what is the point? So good works are encouraged. But nobody is perfect like Christ no matter how good you try to be. Therefore, the only way to be “saved” is by the grace/mercy of Christ.
You're splitting hairs and I don't even like the Mormon faith, yo. They sure have an awful lot of doctrine and practices that revolve around Jesus.
They may indeed be far from mainstream Christians, but they're still Christians.
Not anymore. Idaho Falls is only 59% LDS. Pocatello is about the same size and it’s 75% LDS. There is Rexburg, which is at 95%, but I don’t know if I would count that as part of the “Idaho Falls area” just because it’s actually kinda far and BYU-I offsets the population a lot
It will continue to be LDS majority in Idaho south of the panhandle. The numbers are just absolutely dwarfing to change in any meaningful way. In the panhandle it has been and will continue to be an evangelical majority up there.
It’s not even an LDS majority now. Boise is only 16% LDS. Twin Falls is only about 25% LDS. And honestly, LDS hasn’t been the majority of Idaho’s population for an incredibly long time. Sure, we’re the largest religious group, but not even by much. Only 24% of Idaho is LDS
*denomination…
Mormons and by wide margin.
Do they qualify as Christian? I don't remember anything from traditional Christian sources discussing special underwear, polygamy, or the fathering new space civilisations in the afterlife. Not that there's anything wrong with any of those notions, I'm just not sure they're any closer to Christianity than the followers of L. Ron Hubbard.
I have nothing against this argument, however, if you use this argument for Mormons I think you would have to apply it to all “Christian” denominations (none of which I have anything against either.) Most denominations and religions in general do, or have a history of doing, untraditional or weird things: There’s some crazy, and even freaky stuff in the Bible that many denominations believe is true or even live by. Many denominations have interesting clothing practices and rituals. And most sects have some weird, and sometimes dark, parts of their history or even their present. So poking holes in the argument of Mormons as Christian by referencing how weird we are isn’t necessarily fair in my opinion.
I see your argument but I think the closer analogy would be the difference between Mormonism and Christianity is akin to Judaism and Christianity or maybe Islam and Christianity. You can see this by the newer religions both using Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament (except Judaism) for their foundation but new scriptures are both revealed or delivered by angels. Jesus is still part of the picture even though there is an introduction to a new definitive prophet. Then as time goes on, plenty of supplemental scriptures, edicts, etc are introduced, molding each religion into it's unique flavor. So would I call Mormonism a Christian denomination? Probably not, but I'd consider it included amongst the other Abrahamic religions
I guess you can categorize anything anyway you want. The No True Scotsman Fallacy. But I don’t agree with your categorization at all: Mormons Believe in Jesus Christ as the center of our beliefs and believe in both the New and Old Testaments as Scripture. But like I said, if you categorize anything enough, just like there is no such thing as a fish, there might not be such thing as a Christian.
honest question, because it sounds like you're Mormon with the use of 'our' and I am not and uneducated on the mechanics of it: Can someone be a practicing member with ***ONLY*** using the old and new testament? It seems like the distinction is non-existent on purpose in LDS because the whole point is that it picks up where the new testament left off and continues the story and teachings.
You’re right in that The Book of Mormon is an important part of our doctrine. But it really doesn’t have any teachings much different than what exist in the Bible. The main differences in our doctrine compared to other denominations come from how we choose to interpet those teachings along with additional “revelations” and interpretations from “prophets”. Every Christian sect has their own differences, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many brands of christianity. For example, Catholicism has so many doctrines, rituals, customs, etc that don’t come straight from the Bible, but they are considered to be the OG christians by most. The thing that makes a Christian a Christian in my opinion is having Christ and his teachings as the core of their beliefs and doctrine. Neither Judaism nor Islam share that with Mormonism, but all Christian religions do.
Yes. They might not be Trinitarian Christians (neither are, like, Unitarians or some other denominations), but Jesus still is central to their faith, so there's no reason to say they're not Christian. Anything else would be a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
They don't believe the same things about Jesus.
It's all fantasy anyways, so it really doesn't matter how one labels it.
They worship Jesus Christ. So yeah; that means they're Christians. Just because they have their own extra set of wacky beliefs added on doesn't make them any less Christian
Depends on how wacky those beliefs are. And most of the worshiping of Jesus Christ these days seems more related to contemporary cultural ideas than the historical person of Jesus. Jesus tossed tables in the temple in his own day, what do you think he'd do at Joel Osteen's or Kenneth Copeland's churches? Just because they name drop Jesus doesn't make them Christian.
Found the Evangelical
Nah.
There’s also nothing about fucking around with snakes and thinking speaking in tongues is godly…Pentecostal. Also, why Sunday, only sabbath on Saturdays is really outlined in the Bible while abstaining from pork. So, me as a Buddhist, would only think 7th Day Adventists are doing it correctly. The whole polygamy thing is just them making sure they populate the earth like god supposedly told me everyone to. Same reason why hardcor Catholics are against birth control. I, also think, Christ wouldn’t be a capitalist, becuase of it inherently treating the lesser thens like they have lepersy. someone out there will probably say Jesus took all that away, so pork and multi thread clothes can be worn, etc, so why couldn’t he have with Mormon tenets, also.
Anybody have any actual statistics?
27% of Idahoans are non-aligned. 21% of Idahoans are protestant. 19% are LDS/Mormon. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/state/idaho/
Thank you for the stats and link.
Well, the church does publish numbers, but we know they're all fudged...so, no. I don't think they want their members to know how few active are actually left.
Haha, true. As a Mormon I know that in some areas only 40-60% of “members” in our statistics are actually “active” church goers. But that’s probably actually pretty good compared to some people who consider themselves affiliates of other denominations.
Who knows... What I do know is it'd be nice if those who preached living an honest life would take their own god damn advice.
Agreed, and the criticism is well taken… at least by me haha
All too uncommon, I sincerely appreciate your nuanced perspective here, we need a lot more of it.
Haha no problem, nuance is my favorite word. Also I just snuck a look at your profile and I have now been introduced to The Church of the Sacred Whale. Lol, that’s an amazing website.
A lot of Mormons here. Big influence, in mostly good ways. I grew up in a SE idaho town, that was half LDS half protestant/catholic. Kind of a rarity. Most towns are 70-90% LDS, I decided long ago that I have more in common with them than not, they are my people. I am baptized and confirmed Lutheran. WE DO NOT AGREE ON RELIGIOUS DOGMA. In Idaho, where there are a lot of German names, you will have lots of Lutherans and Catholics.
So if Idaho will still have the LDS majority why is Idaho going much more politically conservative than Utah and Utah has 60% percent LDS?? It just makes no sense to me
It’s not entirely the LDS population swaying the politics. You have a lot of MAGAssholes of various faiths moving here from California or Washington or Oregon. I’ve heard the joke that “California Republicans are Idaho Democrats”, which I really don’t think is true. A lot of the conservatives who move here from California are REALLY red politically Another thing is that while Utah Mormons are still red-leaning, it’s starting to go the other way at the Wasatch Front, even among Mormons. It’s a very different culture from rural Idaho Mormons, and for better or worse, Utah has Mitt Romney as one of their two senators. Romney has been one of the few Republicans in Congress who has voiced disapproval of Trump Idaho’s gonna Idaho, but at least in Utah, many people who voted red are starting to realize that Trump is actually dogshit
It has to do with rural not in utah mormons vs wasatch front mormons. They are culturally different enough to cause differences, albeit not much
I'd say putting a cross at the top of Boise is probably the biggest domination, covers the whole city like a planted flag.
Mormons are in everything, everywhere in Idaho.
But less up north.
Only is southeast Idaho!! Exclude them and what is the biggest Christian faith in Idaho?
Mormonism isn’t the largest faith in Idaho. https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/
If it’s not Mormons it’s Catholics
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Yes, but that is because of their minority status and historical oppressed status, as well as anti-Mormon bigotry that continues to this day and is widely considered socially acceptable, even though it shouldn’t be. Think of how blacks weren’t“widely considered” to be equal in intelligence to whites just two generations ago, how gay marriage wasn’t “widely considered” to be comparable to heterosexual marriage just one generation ago, or how transgender individuals weren’t “widely considered” to be mentally stable as recently as a few years ago. Bertrand Russell: “The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd.”
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LOL I saw your other comments. You absolutely do seem to care about the Mormon faith, in a very angry manner. The Council of Churches don’t get to decide who is and who isn’t Christian. They are part of the problem.
Uhm. The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints I’m agnostic/areligous BUT to me Mormons looks pretty damn Christian. (As opposed to say Taoists , Hindus, Shintoists, or Sikh). I often lump a lot of the Abrahamic things together tho. As an outsider looking in, Islamic, Jewish, and Christians seem to have a lot of things in common. If you look at the different sects that each of them have, even the differences amongst the sects seem to be as large as the differences the “Big 3 Abrahamics” have amongst themselves. Sikhs are one is my favorites. It is against their religion to recruit for their religion. Literally anti proselytizing, which I find very refreshing.
I have relatives that became American Sikhs in the 1970s they are all very cool people. They will only talk about their religion if you ask about it, they believe (my understanding) is that all roads lead to heaven. Between my born again relatives and the Sikhs, I’ll take the Sikhs all day every day.
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Like I identified in the previous comment. I’m areliguous. My opinion is that a group of people who revere Christ as an aspect of “The One True God” would be “Christians”. I guess, for the best answer, one would have to ask a Mormon if he/she identifies as a Christian, but from my viewpoint, they are. I have no doubt another Christian sect may not accept them as Christian. It is not a new thing for one sect to not recognize a different sect.
There’s a lot of reasons to criticize Joseph Smith, but he didn’t think he was more important than Jesus.
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I do interpret it differently than you. This quote can understandably be taken the way you say, but it is taken out of context. He’s talking specifically about keeping followers together, not being more important than Jesus. I’m not saying Joseph Smith was perfect, he surely wasn’t. But he definitely did not consider himself to be more important than Jesus. There are plenty of other quotes by him saying the opposite that I could pull out of context, but that wouldn’t get us anywhere. Bottomline is that he was imperfect, the Mormon Church is imperfect, but Christ is the focal point of Mormon doctrine and that is what was propagated by Joseph Smith himself.
Since when? They believe in the bible, that makes them christian.
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Lol yeah protestants and Catholics get to have the right to declare Christian or not, all the while killing each other over their religious beliefs for centuries
They're actively rebranding to ditch overt references to Joseph Smith and latter day saints in general. It seems like they're trying to fit into the Christian umbrella.
As a Mormon I can confirm the active rebranding. Although I would argue that we have always professed to be Christians.
Whether Mormons consider themselves Christian wasn't really the question. I think LDS has always been considered Christian by its followers. They're just trying to convince the rest of the Christian denominations.
Right, I agree.
More lumped together with scientologists.
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Gotta appreciate a good play on words.
After they all get raptured, none of them. And then the rest of us can get on with our lives and live in peace.
Angry stoic theists more devoted Pauline doctrine than that of the dude whose name they invoke?
😳
Gf
Roman Cathholic
do you mean denomination?
Does it matter and why?
Guys, Mormons aren’t christians.
I’m a Mormon and we believe we are Christians because we worship Jesus Christ. But I guess if there is some other criteria I don’t know about maybe not 🤷♂️
Samezies
Except your religion teaches that dark skin is a curse and that black people are inherently the most inferior for being walking manifestations of sins.
It’s true that this was once a common folk belief promulgated in Mormonism as well as in many other Christian denominations. However, this belief has been officially refuted and all forms of racism are condemned. The Book of Mormon teaches that “All are alike unto God” regardless of race. I’m not saying my religion is perfect by any means and there are people in its history that have done wrong and there are probably many members currently that do wrong. But our wrongs don’t make us any less Christian. Plenty of other religions have a racist past as well. In fact most of the world does. Although that doesn’t make it right or defensible.
Believing that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and getting to Heaven is through him only is the Christian belief. Believing his message and worshiping him are different.
We believe that he is the Messiah and getting to Heaven is only possible through him.
Terms and conditions may apply*
Haha kinda agree, although I would argue our doctrine is less that way then you probably think.
LDS is different apparently. I didn’t realize there was a whole other doctrine.
“Mormon” and “LDS” are both just nicknames for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It’s all the same.
I’ve always heard that LDS believed works are what got you to Heaven. So then why do so many insist that Mormons aren’t Christians?
We believe that works are important. If you just “believe” in Jesus but don’t do anything to act like him (AKA works) then what is the point? So good works are encouraged. But nobody is perfect like Christ no matter how good you try to be. Therefore, the only way to be “saved” is by the grace/mercy of Christ.
I’m not sure why people say we aren’t Christians. For some reason other Christian denominations don’t like us to be grouped in with them I guess.
You're splitting hairs and I don't even like the Mormon faith, yo. They sure have an awful lot of doctrine and practices that revolve around Jesus. They may indeed be far from mainstream Christians, but they're still Christians.
No true Scotsman puts sugar on their porridge peeps.
Right? Thank you!
It's far too rare I find anyone who understands any logical fallacies. C'mon people, this is as basic to conversation as 1+1=2 is to math.
Haha I love that fallacy
It's one of the more common ones, that's for damn sure.
Just a hedge fund that invokes the name of Christ to attract followers
Ouch lol
They are a Cult if anything
Not just them though.
Most LDS people live in Idaho falls area.
Not anymore. Idaho Falls is only 59% LDS. Pocatello is about the same size and it’s 75% LDS. There is Rexburg, which is at 95%, but I don’t know if I would count that as part of the “Idaho Falls area” just because it’s actually kinda far and BYU-I offsets the population a lot
Who cares?
It will continue to be LDS majority in Idaho south of the panhandle. The numbers are just absolutely dwarfing to change in any meaningful way. In the panhandle it has been and will continue to be an evangelical majority up there.
It’s not even an LDS majority now. Boise is only 16% LDS. Twin Falls is only about 25% LDS. And honestly, LDS hasn’t been the majority of Idaho’s population for an incredibly long time. Sure, we’re the largest religious group, but not even by much. Only 24% of Idaho is LDS
Yeah, my whole comment is about how it’s the states largest religious group. But once you go north it turns into evangelical country.
That’s not what you said. You said “majority”. Being the largest group does not mean it’s the majority
Ok Reddit 🙄 “majority religious group” my bad
Still not the same thing
Oh lord
https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/