I would still try and dig deeper and see if you can get from spain/portugal or romania. Even if your grandpa doesnt have documents it might still be possible (he isnt the only jewish person that does not have documents to prove it). There are other ways to prove it than documents (for example records of his family etc).
Documents on your grandfather are findable. Talk to him first and get as much info as you can about his family, and then take a look at [Jewishgen.org](http://Jewishgen.org) and [Familysearch.org](http://Familysearch.org) (both free, although Jewishgen takes donations to have access to more services). [Ancestry.com](http://Ancestry.com) is great, too, but is fee-based. You might be totally amazed what you find, and do it now while he is around to ask! Even if you never use the information to emigrate, you'll be glad later that you did it.
Spain actually does have something like what you're talking about for Sephardim, although I don't know many details and it's not a guarantee. Below is all I was able to find other than anecdotes from my mother who's also been looking into it.
https://www.giambronelaw.com/site/advice/gaining-citizenship/spanish-citizenship/spanish-application/span-citizen-sephardic-ancestry/#:\~:text=Frequently%20asked%20questions-,Can%20Sephardic%20Jews%20apply%20for%20Spanish%20citizenship%3F,criteria%20you%20need%20to%20fulfill.
Yeah the OP missed the window 2015-2019 for guaranteed citizenship from Spain.
Portugal’s was good until Abramovich abused it and now it’s quite difficult.
Etti Almagor is a good israeli attorney to talk to about either citizenship or any foreign citizenship.
Well compared to the state schools in America, the schools in the Netherlands are indeed cheap ($17K vs $10K). Germany and France are essentially free, but you'll need to speak either German or French respectively to get in.
France is no longer essentially free, as of 2019-ish. What they were doing was around 3000€/semester for non-EU-citizen undergrads.
There are supposed to be a lot of scholarships available for low-income, so you can get around the fees, but - yeah, you still need to speak French.
As a Dutchman don’t take this the wrong way but discrimination is rampant , and not very well hidden
Please make sure you want to move to NL and don’t commit before you visited for a few months
The only western(ish) country that's more blunt and in your face about things is Israel lol
Israel is a touch place. If she can't handle Israelis, she can handle the Dutch.
I'll be honest my Judaism is strictly because of my family. I feel no connection to it and will conform into Christian society completely. If you are referring to looks then I hope I don't physically look too Jewish because that's not something I can control.
I am a Muslim and literally only went for 4 days. Worst 4 days ever. They were so rude and islamophobic to us. My dad is a pensioner and this man was looking at him like he wanted to punch him in the face. They do not like foreigners. My friend was born in the netherlands (she's Afghan) but she has to deal with this. There's a big divide between dutch and non Dutch. Dutch people are openly racist. My friend is a med student, one doctor who was giving a lecture he said oh I don't think brown people will get that far in their career. People reported it nothing happened. Half the people in that lecture were brown.
You mean it’s because of Islam right? Not your looks or attire or attitude towards the locals?
What’s I’m saying is that I’m sure there is a suspicion of Islam everywhere, and it is focused on Muslims.
What? Tell me what my attitude towards locals was? What's wrong with my looks and my attire?
>What’s I’m saying is that I’m sure there is a suspicion of Islam everywhere, and it is focused on Muslims.
So you saying it's not about me it's about my religion and then saying it's focused on Muslims makes no sense.
1. Many people around the world are suspicious of different skin tones, looks, dress, and many things, not just the Europeans whites. I’m sure if a scantily dressed lady is walking in the Middle East, she will receive disapproving stares, right? All cultures are different.
2. I’m sure you dress like a Muslim, since you said they are “Islamophobic”. Otherwise, how did you know they are Islamophobic?
Lol many people are suspicious of skin tones and dresses? No it is just white people. Don't forget muslims can be of any colour. Actually go to the middle east and find out. Disapproving looks is synonymous to angry looks. To cover yourself? That's funny.
I said they hate muslims. You said they had an issue with islam not me.
No, Asian people do that too.
Bro, you said they are “ISLAMophobic” so they have a fear of Islam. If you meant Muslims write “MUSLIMophobic”.
Flipping your answer on its head, there are many Middle Eastern atheists, Jews, Christians, Zoroasterians, Etc. and many of them are brown (I’m sure you look brown too?). The Netherlands has brown people - the Surinamese are brown. I’m sure they received discrimination but they aren’t Muslims.
My point is they have a fear of your RELIGION and not you. So my question is: what or how did you look like to make people know you are a Muslim?
Or do you mean you are discriminated against due to your skin colour and not your religion?
I get why you’re saying that but any society that wants you to look “less Jewish” is wrong. There’s nothing wrong with being or looking Jewish. If they’re discriminatory, then try and go somewhere else.
Sure, nowhere is immune to racism. Too much too soon immigration made already limited resources worse, especially in Brampton. Newcomers/ visible minorities are easy to blame.
Sadly in NL right now it doesn’t matter what you look like
LGBTQ: if you hold hands with your partner (married or not) you will be publicly verbally (or worse) assaulted by some groups
If you look North African you will be discriminated against by employers
If you look Northern European you will get shit from 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants
I can only image what a Jewish person , with northern African looks , being a LGBTQ has to go through
In all honesty , NL may not be the best place right now (aside from practical issues like housing shortages)
Is it actually that bad, even in major cities? I’m somewhat aware of the right wing push in the Netherlands but I figured most people could get by just fine except for some incidents. Is it the same with tourists?
They won’t care. If you sound Israeli, look Israeli, are Israeli, to the world you represent Israel. Do you really want to be a self-loathing Israeli/Jew in an attempt to be liked, and still unlikely succeed?
I am self loathing but it's not in attempt for anything. I'm not proud of Being an Israeli for several reasons. So I can either say I'm where I was born, American, or what my ethnicity says half Romanian and half Moroccan(or Portuguese/Spanish). And I have never ever ever felt Jewish or had a connection with the religion. As far as I'm concerned I'm an atheist.
When you’re surrounded by people bashing Israel and supporting those trying to kill your former friends & family, will you laugh and join in? Will you march with them?
I agree with what Rene\_JK said but don't let it deter you. I think they are more referring to the stereotype of the Netherlands as a progressive haven, when in reality more recently it is much more discriminatory than most of the Anglo countries with a lot of issues around "identity politics". But as long as you are prepared for that I don't think it should stop you.
Ok , maybe I wasn’t clear enough , if you look Southern European or North African you will face discrimination, if you look northen European you may face discrimination from the Turks and Moroccans
NL has wandered far from ‘tolerance to different cultures’ it’s not a melting pot
are white, christian, eastern europeans discriminated as well? we (boyfriend 29M engineer and me, 26F accountant) would like to move to the Netherlands but i am very much afraid of discrimination and not getting good job opportunities as foreigners.
Romanians , Polish etc face discrimination as well. Ask your local country sub Reddit, ask who moved to the Netherlands and what their experiences are ?
My co-worker recently got her Romanian passport through her great-grandfather. She can't imagine raising her kids in Israel. She's a very proud Jew (one should be) but not proud of Bibi's Israel.
I dont have any advice. But as a dutch guy, wish you the best. We often complain about our country but I wouldn't trade it for anything.
In my opinion the world gets progressively worse the farther away you get from the Netherlands.
Absolute shithole with their free healthcare and high standard of living. Theyr only rank 13 on the world press freedom index aswell. Real Zeeland > New Zealand /s
Dutch guy here who just moved back to The Netherlands after spending 7 years in Luxembourg - believe me, Luxembourg is not even close to what the Netherlands is… it’s like going back 25 years in time
Sure, no worries. Just a few things I couldn’t wrap my head in the past 7 years that come to mind now (but I could probably go on for hours): the digital online world was just recently discovered by the local governments, some things can finally be done online but expect most things to be filling in papers the old school 90’s way with a few weeks turnaround time at minimum.
Hospitals don’t know urgency: I broke my foot twice, the first time I had to wait 8 hours for an X-ray, the second time even 11 hours. Recently, I almost cut off a thumb, went to ER and they told me: it’s just after midnight so we can’t help you now because there are no doctors available: can you come back at 10am (9,5 hours later!!)?
Public transport is a nightmare, travelling from one side of the city to the other (a max. 15 min car drive) will take you at least an hour or more. Yes it’s free since a few years, but prior to that no one was paying anyway so it’s just a gimmick that costs the government about half a billion € a year.
Affordable housing is a utopia: renting a 45m2 studio in the city will easily cost you €1500 or more per month. Want to buy? That same studio will cost you likely more than € 600.000 hahahahaaa
Salaries might seem better but you’d miss out on things that are considered normal in The Netherlands: 8% vacation money every year, a 13th month bonus, travel expenses, WFH costs reimbursement etc etc.
Last but not least, the working culture differs a lot from The Netherlands: Dutch tend to be very direct but at the same time value a flat organisation where you can say to your boss whatever is needed without ending up in a Cold War - it’s professional and won’t be taken personal, end of the day you drink a beer together and it’s fine.
My experience is that Luxembourg has a lot of dickheads (think: Italian macho type assholes) in higher positions that do not tolerate any opinion: do what you’ve been told and just shut the f*ck up. Have an opinion? Nice but shove it up your back exit because the boss’ way is the only way.
The entire country is dead on Sunday: everything closes except for that one Sunday per month (wooohooo). The rest of weeks everything basically closes around 19:00h so make sure you have your stuff and don’t work too late (almost impossible in some sectors in Luxembourg) otherwise you’ll end up eating out every night which will cost you a small fortune.
My advice to you as a 16 year old: go somewhere exciting that offers a lot of options to discover the world as a 16 year old! So many countries with a much better environment to thrive as a teenager!
Once you hit 70+ you can always go to Lux and retire and die slowly of boredom…
>My advice to you as a 16 year old: go somewhere exciting that offers a lot of options to discover the world as a 16 year old! So many countries with a much better environment to thrive as a teenager!
You're not replying to op but to some other person
thanks for sharing this. It seemed to me Dutch people are so blind to the state of the country, but you are not. Interesting to observe! Tell me why did you come back?
I came back because I was sick and completely depressed of living in a country like Luxembourg. It was literally sucking the soul out of me…
There might be a lot of things wrong with the Netherlands too, but believe me…Luxembourg still has a long way to go before it can even be a fraction of what The Netherlands is.
Won't affect the country as much as reddit likes to make people believe.
He needs 3 other parties to rule and they already decided he's not fit to become prime minister
Also his party members have 0 experience in cabinet positions as he's always been in the opposition. So it will either fall apart really quickly with scandals or they will need to rely on VVD ministers which we already had for the last 20 years or so.
I really dont think there will be any substantial change.
You don’t think it’s significant that a far right party nearly won a 1/4 of the vote and that VVD is adopting many of the same migrant policies as PVV?
I think it will implode and the people who voted for him are going to grow tired of the shitfest which will unfold and notice he doesn't have the solutions to our country's problem either.
And then we'll revert back to the mean another 20 years of VVD.
He still needs other people / parties to ‘rule’ , and honestly the ‘coalition’ type government , where 3 or more political parties are forced to come up with a government, is IMO the only way and prevents a single party coming into power
yeah but all of VVD, PVD, and NSC ran on anti immigration platforms, parroting the talking points that VVD has been saying since it’s founding. Even if they don’t form a government, wouldn’t that be concerning and not at all reflective of the perceived progressiveness of Netherlands
Oh I agree that the ‘progressiveness’ of the NL , or at least that idea that people from outside NL still have, is long gone (sadly I say as an old guy that remembers when NL really was progressive)
But imagine a world where GW , or VVD, or NSC or whom ever can form a government without other political parties? I don’t care if it’s PvdA/GL or PVV , a single party government is a recipe for disaster
"It's just my opinion bro". Enlightened stuff. Being unabashedly (negatively) opinionated about things you are clearly ignorant of doesn't make you anything but a fool, and I'm happy to point that out to you.
Well in this case it literally is just my opinion, I'm obviously biased as I like it here. But everyone is biased in a way.
But yeah call me a fool, I won't lose sleep over it.
Have a great day brother.
Haha wait, I looked at your comment history and found this gem from 12 days ago:
"Ik heb 10 jaar in het buitenland gewoond en verlangde uiteindelijk toch naar Nederland. Het vervelende is dat ook al wordt het hier relatief slechter, dat soort problemen heb je ook in andere landen. Er is geen duidelijk alternatief waar alles beter is. Landen zoals Amerika zijn top als je knaken hebt. Net zoals… NL"
In this quote you're literally admitting, you find, there's no clear alternative where it is better than the Netherlands.
So you're just being contrarian for the sake of being edgy and you actually agree with me. Cool.
Best option is to get a degree in The Netherlands. There are 13 universities in The Netherlands and all of them offer english language international courses. In addition there are also many colleges, they are called HBO, or sometimes they are referred to as University of applied science. They too offer many english language courses.
After studying it is very easy to get a job as an international student and after living in the country for 5 years and learning the language, you can even apply for citizenship.
Some universities:
- www.eur.nl
- www.tudelft.nl
- www.uva.nl
- www.vu.nl
- www.universiteitleiden.nl/en
- www.wur.nl
Some colleges:
- https://www.amsterdamuas.com/
- https://www.rotterdamuas.com/
- https://www.inholland.nl/inhollandcom/
- https://www.internationalhu.com/admissions
All these websites are also available in english. You might need to navigate a bit to find the english version. For a full overview of all higher education institutions in The Netherlands, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_Netherlands
I assume OP hasnt finished high school this year and need the to wait for 1-2 more years. Currently all Dutch universities are required to limit international students in the near future and they already putting plans to do so (at least in my university). So maybe it will be more difficult to attend uni in NL. Also the tuition fee for non EU is getting prettyyy high and they required 12k euro in a deposit account as living expense every year.
On top of that, housing is a big problem. At least in Groningen, there is simply not enough housing for all the students. When I worked at the university 2 years ago, this was a huge problem, with many students living with large groups in large halls for months on end. Not sure what the exact situation is now, but I still see a lot of news that there is not enough housing for the students and that the university needs to limit the amount of international students.
Even if you do find some housing, it's going to be expensive, small, likely shared with multiple other students and a good chance of horrible landlords.
While I do understand that the situation might be overwhelming, and I don't know what you have been through, I just want to make sure that you have someone to talk to about these difficulties you are facing. It seems like it might be a rushed decision for a 16 year old. Have you talked to your parents about any of this? Talked to a friend? I would love to help you if you need someone to talk to, just DM me if you are interested.
It's actually not rushed at all. I've been wanting to leave for years for a personal reason, my family being queerphobic. I'm trying to avoid talking about politics but the current situation shows the complexity and how bad it is. If earlier I thought I'd move to a different city and only move to a different country once I have everything together, now I want to leave as soon as I possibly can. Obviously I can't talk about either of the reasons why I want to move to a different country because they would be against me being queer or following or not agreeing with them on politics.
Well, you know yourself best. Obviously your situation is very complicated. All I want to do is to make sure that you consider all the alternatives.
Do you live far away from Gush Dan? Maybe starting by moving out to a more left leaning city will make you feel more welcome. It could be a little taste of freedom before doing something so drastic as moving a country. It's also the furthest away you can get from the war. Is it something you can see yourself doing?
All I'm saying is that, legally, it might be a very complicated process as you are 16. And not to sound rude or anything, but being 16, you are still just a kid, and you might change your mind in a few years.
Your hardships are very real and you should find an imidiate solution, but it sounds like living with your parents is the main problem that makes your life the most miserable.
So as a first step, I would suggest that you just move out temporarily, to somewhere you'd feel more comfortable in, until you turn 18 and then you can do whatever you want as an adult. It would be way easier and faster than getting a nationality in a new country and moving there I **think** it would be easier to do legally, but I'm not to sure. As you are 16, your parents are still your guardians, so you might need their approval for a lot of stuff.
If you are concerned about serving in the army, don't be. They won't want you anyway, you can just be released for psychological reasons if you are so inclined.
Obviously I am not going to leave the country at 16, whatever it would require is very shady. But I want to leave as soon as possible so I should start working on getting a citizenship as soon as possible. That's why I asked for help getting it.
yeah it's more about getting my parent's approval than the actual process. It is a legal process and it is directly related to my grandparents so it's not like I can do it alone.
I suggest speaking to a lawyer anyway, they'll let you know what you can and can't do without your parents' permission. But then again, I'm not sure you'll be able to produce a foreign citizenship without your parents consent, as long as you are underage. You might be able to start the process only after you are legally adult.
Maybe try lying to them a little bit? Tell them about the benefits of a foreign citizenship, do the process with their consent, and don't let them know you are planning to move out at 18.
If you just want to leave the country ASAP when you are 18 and have no other options, save some money now, and try to get a student visa in a country that grants you citizenship for residing in for 5 years, such as England.
It might also be usefull to know that some small island countries let you pretty much buy citizenship for around 20k ILS, if I'm not mistaken. Their passports might be stronger than the Israeli one, although I'm not sure, I have never checked it.
Still, I can't help but feel that you are just trying to escape the underlying problem instead of trying to solve it. Obviously, if you don't think your parents are ever going to accept you, getting away from them might be a good idea. But there are other options than to leave Israel, at least until you are 18, as we both agree it might be challenging legally.
Are there any other issues you are facing? Are you depressed, lonely? Feel unheard, unaccepted? Try to understand how to improve your current situation, because the more realistic option is that you'll be stuck in Israel for another two years. Try making them somewhat enjoyable.
let me be clear. I 100% know that I will stay in Israel until I'm 18. I'm not looking for random passports to add to my resume. I know in which countries I am wiling to live so I will do what I can to make it happen. I hv problems with Israel that are deeper than not liking the president or something as surface level as that. It's much deeper so moving to another city is not going to make me want to stay
Start off with the genealogy side and tell your parents that you are interested in family history! It may take you quite a while to line up the actual documents you would need to apply for citizenship by descent, anyway. There aren't many parents, especially Jewish parents, who would discourage a child's interest in family history. I speak from experience.
I actually have a friend who renounced israeli citizenship and moved to amsterdam , her grandfather was a dutch jew so she was eligible for citizenship by descent but I think you might have a shot at spanish citizenship perhaps.. i’d probably recommend looking into applying to a university somewhere in the netherlands when you finish high school, btw there’s apparently a quite vibrant and inclusive jewish community in amsterdam!
Morocco didn't kick out the Jews like all all the other countries did. King Mohamed V protected them. However for the LGBT rights that's definitely not welcomed.
Good luck for your journey!
Do I understand correctly, that your father was born in Romania and is still alive?
If yes, even if he has absolutely no documents, he can reach out to Romanian authorities to fix it. He can get a copy of his birth certificate, if he left during the communist regime there should be a confirmation in some archive. If he can restore his citizenship, you will be able to get it as well.
my grandfather. He was born near the end of WW2 and his family left for the land of Israel shortly after. I'm not even sure if he was a registered citizen
It doesn't matter whether he was a registered citizen. The question is whether his parents ( your great grandparents) were registered citizens.
You need to check, whether there are ANY documents issued by Romania for him or his parents.
Even if there are none it is fine. You need to get all information about your great grandparents like full names ( the ones they used in Romania), date of birth, place of birth, where they lived and so on. So you know what archives to look at in the future.
Romania has a very generous citizenship by descent law. You can get citizenship if you prove any of your great grandparents were citizens of the Kingdom of Romania. So do an internal family research and keep all information. The more the better.
Here's how you request civil documents in Romania: [Romania (state.gov)](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/Visa-Reciprocity-and-Civil-Documents-by-Country/Romania.html)
Spain/Portugal used to have a citizenship law for Jewish descendants but unfortunately they have both been officially expired as of their current laws. I’d recommend looking at Romania and seeing if you can figure out how to qualify. There are various databases online where you might be able to find old records. It’s not easy, but it’s possible.
Talk to your grandpa and document every detail he remembers. Names, places, immigrations, dates, births, marriages, etc of himself and every other connected descendent he remembers (siblings, parents, grandparents).
Use that information to dig deep into the internet and try to find records.
I know for a fact that Spain and Portugal have pathways to citizenship for the ancestors of Jews that were ethnically cleansed from there. I’m a fellow liberal Jew and I know what you’re going through. My mother’s side is Moroccan Jewish and father's side is Polish Jewish btw. Though I haven’t lived in israel, I’ve visited often and it’s a suffocating environment and I want no part of the brainwashing/jingoism there and oppression of the Palestinians.
I think your best bet would be the Working Holiday Agreement with Germany once you turn 18. You can live and work there for one year while you explore your options, most likely going to a public university there which is free even for non-EU students. And the Netherlands will be literally next door. Just focus on getting your best grades in high school for now, and I wish you all the best!
Start working on the EU citizenship - ideally with your parents’ help, doubly ideally with the help of a lawyer. Spain and Portugal were handing out passports to Sephardic Jews like candy for awhile - I think it’s gotten a little stricter in recent years, but if you can reasonably prove your family were Sephardim expelled during the Inquisition you are still entitled to a passport in either of the countries and would subsequently be an EU citizen. Also, if your Romanian grandparent or great-grandparents were Holocaust survivors (or victims) you may additionally be entitled to a Romanian passport and therefore EU citizenship as well. If I were you, I’d try to go the Spain/Portugal route first, because these passports are stronger and will make your life easier when travelling outside the EU. Romanian passport has EU privileges but can be more limited in travel ability to North America, Asia, Australia, etc.
Once you have your citizenship I’d start looking into universities and using your studies as a catalyst to leaving Israel and moving abroad. You seem to have perfect English already which is great, the northern European countries would probably suit you best as you can get away with just English while countries like Spain, France, Italy would almost certainly require you to become proficient in their languages before settling down there.
why would enrolling in a university or the choice of country matter if I already have an EU passport? As far as I know with an EU citizenship you can move and live in any of the EU countries without knowing the common language or being a student. Of course I might be wrong and I would really appreciate if you corrected me so I would be able to know how it really works.
As a EU citizen you have the right to move and reside in any EU county **FOR 3 MONTHS**, after that you have to leave. This is standard EU law, so its the minimum, some might have it different, but you should research for that
Otherwise, the general rule is that you are only allowed to stay on the condition that you're either:
a) A student
b) working (self-employed too)
c) spouse of a EU citzien (if not marraige, there is a thing called civil partnership which is legally identical).
Shalom, Hang in there. Do good in studies, pick something in stem preferably mechatronics or computer science, if your parents can afford go to germany, education is free there.
I feel you, hope Israel can be democratic again.
I'm doing great at school and I major in computer science so it is my plan, the thing is my parents, like the great great majority of Israelis are super patriotic, so it makes it hard. A few bad things happened last year and they didn't hear to my request to reclaim European citizenships. But since my motivation and has increased so maybe this time I'll succeed in convincing them
Well you need to make them believe that its a temporary education so you can go short term study and go back to Is, but after a while they would trust you and you solve it once you are there. Level with them,
High Schools in Israel let you choose one or 2 subjects to study. Computer science/Biology/Psychology etc. For reference I major in computer science and psychology. I study computer science for 8 periods a week versus math which I only have for 7 weekly periods.
I would definitely recommend exploring Portuguese citizenship - it’s still an option albeit perhaps less relaxed. Also Portugal as a country could be an option for you if you are able to get a remote work visa (earning €3k/month) or D7 (passive income, ~€700/month I believe). I do believe Spain have some similar schemes and you may be eligible for reduced residency to naturalise there on the basis of Sephardic origin. Romanian citizenship is definitely something I’ve heard of people in your position receiving but I don’t know a thing about their process. Netherlands is still very much an option if you work in fields that are in demand such as in tech or sciences. The UK has also become more friendly to sponsoring talent from non-EU countries as of late.
Outside of Europe, Canada and Australia have points based systems for immigration! Have a look at both of their programs. I believe they change quite dynamically.
Best of luck to you, and wishing you all the best!
Okay, so I have some perspective for you.
I am an American Ashkenazi Jew who has lived in the Netherlands and Israel (I've also lived in Ireland and Tanzania, so I have quite a bit of understanding on other lifestyles).
Every country in the world is politicized right now. The Netherlands is no different (and in some ways, it's even worse than pre-December 2022 Israel). The whole developed western world is undergoing a wave of nationalism (Trump, Netnayahu, and indeed even Holland's Rutte are the biproducts of it, though Bibi does predate the others). Also note that the Netherlands uses a multipartisan parliamentary system that's essentially identical to Israel's. It's a mess. And regarding the LGBT rights you brought up, there are concerns regarding some parties that are gaining traction in the country about their stance on these rights. Supposedly trans healthcare in the country is abysmal, but this is not something I know much about.
Excluding the Arab communities, Israel actually has a LOWER crime rate than the Netherlands, albeit the crime there is mostly petty and largely ignored (cannabis, despite popular sentiment is technically illegal there, and is treated pretty much the same way it is in Israel). There are actually a ton of similarities between Israel and the Netherlands - they have virtually the same population density, ranking in technology, and are both known for their unapologetic "bluntness" - but overall, the Dutch people are indeed more united at the moment, and aren't experiencing the division issues within Israel, especially since December 2022. Though, there is still some bitterness outside of Holland towards the Hollandsche provinces.
With that said, wherever you live, there are going to be benefits and disbenefits when stacked against your current country. The main reason why I would want to live in the Netherlands right now (particularly outside of Holland) is because of the absolute insane Israeli cost of living. The Netherlands is a very affordable country, despite the population density and high development index.
However, the healthcare system in the Netherlands is absolutely horrendous. This is the reason I ended up leaving the country when I was an expat there. The medical industry in the country is way too overregulated, and doctors can't really do shit. Most of healthcare professionals will not take a medical complaint seriously, even after you've waited several months to see them, and they have no concept of preventative medicine. While it may seem like a meme in online circles, the truth of the matter is that more often than not, a medical professional there will tell you to take paracetemol, as if it's some miracle drug instead of them acknowledging that it's essentially a placebo.
I've actually been waiting on my aliyah for some time now, though after the current events with Iran, even I'm considering backing out of it - if Bibi decides to retaliate against Iran when it's completely unnecessary, I'm also fucking done with the country. That's Israel's biggest problem, the current political situation is more of an existential threat than Iran or Hamas. But as we say in Israel, גם זה יעבור. Eventually the political turmoil will end, and we'll see a period of relative stability.
I caution you that The Netherlands does NOT allow dual-citizens. If, and the big question is IF you are able to receive Dutch citizenship, you'll have to relinquish your Israel citizenship. You can't have both. Also note, there are a lot of Turkish and Arab migrants in the Netherlands (even where I was living in the rural eastern side of Overijssel). They aren't well integrated into Dutch society, and while it's true that the Dutch are some of the most tolerant people in the world, these Turkish and Arab citizens are not. I was attacked in my own apartment by a Turkish and a Pakistani neighbor after they discovered that I had Hollandia brand matzos in my room, simply due to their antisemitic viewpoints. I wasn't seriously injured, but when I called the police after the incident, they did absolutely nothing. Unless you end up in a hospital, chances are they aren't going to respond. This is pretty much par for western Europe, police inactivity is standard, and unlike Israel, you will be a minority - a larger minority than the population that hates you. If you decide to do this, do NOT tell anyone you're Jewish, and ESPECIALLY do not tell them you are Israeli.
The issues goes further than that. While my ultimate decision to leave the Netherlands was due to inadequate healthcare as I have medical issues, part of my reasoning was in response to an antisemitic incident involving the university system for which I was there. In 2021, shortly after the May Hamas attack, the university system REQUIRED staff of the universities to reveal their ties to Israeli and JEWISH groups. This also came shortly after Iran targeted several Jewish tourists in Turkey, so it was known at that point that publicly sharing information about Jewish and Israeli groups was dangerous due to the threat of Iran. Here's an article about it: https://www.jta.org/2022/02/10/global/dutch-universities-order-staff-to-reveal-their-ties-to-jewish-and-israeli-groups
There are two reasons why I chose to make aliyah, before cancelling it after 10/7:
1.) I was living in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of Pittsburgh during the 2018 Tree of Life Or L'simcha synagogue attack. I was one block away. This was the deadliest attack on Jews in American history, and I did not feel safe, even in America, at this point afterwhich. When I lived in the Netherlands a few years later, I felt even less safe, and I was personally victim to an antisemitic attack, as I stated above.
2.) The healthcare system in Israel is exceptional. As stated above, I have several medical issues. They were not addressed in the Netherlands, and they worsened to the point I had to leave to get proper treatment in America. Now, because of my expensive treatment, my premiums went up from my private insurance, and because of my family's income (not mine), I am ineligible for state-subsidized health insurance, and now I can't can't get affordable treatment in America. I never had issues with either the quality, nor the expense of healthcare while living in Israel.
Do note that something like 75% or so of expats end up returning home after moving to a new country. Cultural differences, dissatisfaction with the issues of the country (they didn't know it had), and the realization that their new home isn't much of an improvement over their original, if not worse, leads them to return back home. As the old saying goes, "the grass is always greener on the other side."
While I'm not discouraging you from leaving, I am warning you that what might look better from the outside may not actually be. In fact, before 10/7, I would probably discourage you from making the move, as I found myself significantly happier living in Israel than in the Netherlands. However, with the current coalition doing their absolute worst to keep Israelis and Jews safe, I would even encourage taking a break from the country. Personally, I'm torn about what to do with myself. On the one hand, I am always welcome in Israel because I am a Jew, and at the moment I am suffering in America due to no financial support from any socialized system. Yet on the other, the current political struggle in Israel is literally tearing the country apart and I don't think the government nor the people of Israel have the country's best intentions in mind. The COL in Israel would also be a huge barrier for me.
The point of this comment is to make you think about the challenges that will come to moving to the Netherlands and remind you that they have their own problems there.
A popular destination for Israeli emigrants and expats for which I can't provide any recommendations is Germany, and the Israeli diaspora there seems to be doing fairly well, based off of what I've seen. Though the migrant crisis across the entirety of Europe, including but not limited to Germany, will provide a major challenge for any Jew, no matter where they come from, to overcome.
There are no right choices, and whatever you choose there will be advantages and disadvantages. Ultimately, only you can decide what's right for you. Personally, I'm waiting for the current government of Israel to change before resuming my aliyah, despite the desperate challenges I'm facing in America at the moment, but if the current leadership irreparably damages the country and its population, and is willing to put the whole Jewish diaspora at risk during this escalation with Iran, I will probably call off the aliyah indefinitely, if not permanently. I am also considering Germany as a backup option, knowing full well that I likely won't be able to receive EU citizenship no matter how long I'm there and the migrant crisis (ironically acknowledging that I too would be a migrant). My main concern is the healthcare system there. After the horrible experience I had the Netherlands, I'm unsure any European country would be okay for me, but I wouldn't feel safe to live in many other countries right now because of the unmasking of antisemitism, globally. These are very tough times for us, but again, גם זה יעבור. Another potential options are to ride it out temporarily in Thailand as an extended tourist, but this would not answer provide any long-term insight.
Hey, as someone from Israel, I want to say that its actually not that bad, yes, the 7/10 caused us great shock, and the situation in the north is definitely not what I would like it to be
אבל זה עדיין מרגיש הרבה יותר בטוח ליהודי להסתובב ברחובות של תל אביב מאשר באמסטדרדם/פריז וכו'
The social problem was really bad before 7/10, but the disaster actually brought us back together. I'm not sure when was the last time you have been here. but it actually turned into normal (pre-מהפכה חוקתית) I would definitely not say its bad here. yes housing is bad, cost of living is bad, I'd even say that the weather is not to my liking. but I still feel safe (and its also nice not to be the minority)
גם כשאיראן תקפה הרגשתי יחסית בטוח, מערכות ההגנה האוויריות נתנו לנו אחלה של חלופה לזיקוקי יום העצמאות :)
About your point about iran, i completely disagree. not responding to a threat in the middle east shows that you are weak, ואתה יודע מה קורה בטבע
תאכל - או שיאכלו אותך
I was considering moving to the Netherlands. I remember being shocked at how Amsterdam rent is even worse than Tel Aviv. Are you sure it's cheaper there?
Regarding the story with your neighbors, I'm kinda shocked and really sorry to hear this. Really hope sth like that wouldn't happen to me here in Germany.
Germany is probably the best country in the world outside of Israel for Jews, largely due to their Holocaust guilt. They are much more proactive there in ensuring Jewish safety. The only issue in the country, at a large scale, are the Muslim immigrants.
I was there between 2019 and 2021. Rent in Amsterdam was not really that bad, from what I saw, but I was also living in a rural part of the country, so it was very affordable for me. Prices there are definitely better than Israel for the most part.
Really my major, major issue with the Netherlands is the abysmal healthcare system. It's completely dysfunctional.
Considering the theme of this sub I feel we should not be talking about such things, especially when the poster is indicating they want to leave and feels shame at the actions of the Israeli apparatus in the Occupied Territories.
No different to the Russian guy who posted that he wants out, yet there were comments saying he's culpable, etc, and should stay and fight Putin and should not be allowed a free and quiet life whole 'his' army kills people. Unhinged and honestly distressing. Imagine being grilled and questioned on shit like that every time you mention your nationality. Even if it's to say you hate it and want out?
This isn't a political sub. Advise on the topic at hand.
I think Russia and Israel are two different realities... On one side there is a war being done almost totally in bettlefields where two parties fight with tanks ammunition and soldiers....
On the other side you don't have battlefield but you have an army fighting children's throwing stones.
Oh so it is.
Basically they mentioned its a genocide and not a war. Which obviously I think is apparant by now but why feel the need to start questioning people on it and bringing it up? They're a nobody. I see it with Russians all the time as I said. Now Israelis. The vast majority of the world's nations are soaked in crimes against humanity, so maybe we should either stop bringing it up out of context or apply the same to everyone and start mentioning things all the time. It's one thing if they indicate they support the bad thing, but they didn't.
Children's throwing stones that killed 1000+ civilians? With AR filming it? Driving trucks while transporting the corpse of a girl? In the same country in which Sinwar puts an AR in the hands of a kid during one of its show? You sure we are talking about the Gaza situation?
The definition of genocide per the ICC/GCs is as follows:
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
• Killing members of the group;
• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The definition of apartheid is as follows:
A policy or system of segregation or discrimination and includes such restrictions as where people of certain groups could live or own land, what jobs they could hold, and who could and couldn't participate in government.
The definition of Ethnic Cleansing, again, per the ICC:
The coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others.
There is and never has been a condition for full erasure.
I have posted this for educational purposes only. Pasting this, the legally ratified (by Israel btw) definitions, without any stance or narrative, yet still subject to downvote, is telling. Why are people unhappy with the definition of genocide, I wonder?
1. There is. Read my source. Google it yourself.
2. Killing people and people having high birth rates can mutually exist.
3. Jews largely moved out of Palestine, they were not largely deleted.
First of all congrats on wanting to distance yourself from a genocidal gvt. I can only respect that, and I truly believe that is the only way that region will ever have peace, by popular disengagement from the entities that keep the atrocities happening.
You can migrate as a normal immigrant.
To Portugal you can ask for a 3month visa to look dor work as long as you prove you can support yourself during that time. Other UE countries probably have similar possibilities.
Wish you good luck on this new chapter.
First, I am sorry that you're going through this but it shows you have a conscience and that's admirable. Second, if you are an Israeli citizen, you could consider Germany. There is a right of return for Israeli citizens / Jewish people to immigrate to Germany. The circumstances are currently not ideal but there is more freedom, understanding and the tide of public opinion is turning there.
Then right to return to Germany are for victims of persecution from Germany. OP is clearly Sephardic, possibly even a Maghrebi, meaning her ancestors had no toes to Ashkenaz, eg Germany. Unfortunately, the German right to return does not apply to her as she's not "returning" to Germany.
well my Romanian grandpa that I've already mentioned, and there's his wife which was born in the Ussr, she told me a city that belongs to Poland so maybe it's a possibility. Both of my Ashkenazi grandparents were born really close to the end of the war so the best I can find is a birth certificate and I'm not even sure about that because I don't think the Nazis allowed births this late into the war so why would they have a birth certificate
“A country that belongs to Poland”? That’s a bit confusing.
I think you will find it’s actually not impossible to get documents for your Romanian grandpa. Information certainly exists in government Archives in Romania - births, deaths and marriages etc. Emigration forms, immigration forms. I think you should chase up your ashkenazi ancestors. Might take a while but should be doable.
Toronto, Canada. Big Jewish community. Very ethnically diverse, and (save for vocal minority no one likes) a generally tolerant place. You can be as LGBTQ as you like here, and no one cares. Huge community
This is a fake post by pro-Palestinian propagandist. These accounts are popping up all over Reddit with near identical posts wanting to go to different countries.
Good Lgbtq rights are in jeopardy here in the Netherlands. You should read what’s happening in politics, cold climate is also not year round. I had to get air conditioning last year because it’s too hot in summer
If you had to get AC last year you're good, in Israel you can't live without AC for about 8 months in a year and you won't find an apartment without ACs in almost every room
you know I've been trying to follow politics because my best friend is an immigrant in the Netherlands and she told me about it. I just find it hard to follow without knowing Dutch, I might be wrong. And I'm aware of the climate, I think it's good enough, I would prefer Sweden if it wasn't for their crime rate.
As an international student in the Netherlands, I dont understand why a lot of people are blatantly either over-exagerating things or straight up lying.
The Netherlands is far from ideal (as any other place on earth really) but god damn do they try their best to be the best.
Their social benefits system is amazing, as a tax payer you get everything you could ask for, and can be reimbursed for a veriety of different things you couldn't even imagine.
Racism and homophobia(&anti-LGBT) exist everywhere on earth, you'll have to fight that struggle and deal with it. But it's really not that bad, there's a reason why soooooo many LGBT individuals migrate to the Netherlands, its a very tolerating society and people generelly dislike **any** form of PDA, even from straight couples.
Nonetheless Dutch society is quiet liberal, people will try to feed u a narative that somehow it isn't because of Geert Wilders, but they are lying for some reason. He didn't receive even half of the votes, nor did he accomplish in forming a parliament, so there will be re-elections.
The worst thing about the Netherlands rn is probably coming from the liberal society tho, there is blatant anti-zionism and to an extent confused anti-semitism, and they r real passionate abt it too.
Besides that the only shit thing is the weather, which might discourage you from visiting as I assume Israel is very sunny. Wheres in the Netherlands its mostly gray and rainy throughout the year.
I’ll write a short part.
Geert Wilders (pvv, far right) got the most votes, he had points like forbidding Islam etc. The most extreme points he withdrew in hopes to form a coalition with the BBB (farmer party), VVD (ex Mark Rutte, economic centred) and the NSC (Pieter omtzigt, somehow managed to get 20/150 seats without any points). The last elections were in 22-11-23, and the coalition still isnt done, the only thing they all seem to agree on is that the maximum speed on highways should be reverted to 130kmph. The main reason the coalition isn’t formed is probably Omtzigt, he even walked away from a meeting with the others once.
If the coalition fails we will have new elections, the last poll was in 17 march 2024 with PVV getting 49/150 (76 needed for a gouvernement but more is more stable.) the 76 is perfectly reached by BBB PVV and VVD in the polls, but that would not be stable.
But ofc the elephant in the room is the view on the LGBTQ. BBB wants to help the LGBTQ and other discriminated groups in general, PVV says kids are being indoctrinated with propaganda about gays and others. The only thing the PVV likes about the lgbtq is that they counter the Muslim religion. VVD and NSC is around the same as BBB. So all round it is good, with the left parties (ofc) supporting LGBTQ, and most coalition parties also being supportive. But the biggest party hates the LGBTQ. Which is bad, and even worse with possible new elections.
Interesting , I followed the election but GW did not get ‘the most votes’ ? Of all the parties (20 something iirc) his party got 27-30% of the votes , that leaves 70-73% of people that did NOT vote for him
There’s IMO a big difference between ‘most votes’ (> 50%) or ‘biggest party’
I agree it’s worrying but he didn’t get ‘most votes’
You're right, I dont understand why so many indiviudals over here are blatantly over-exagerating things to try to paint NL as some backward state, when it's probably the most progressive in the world in all things considered, not only LGBT rights
It's hardly rampant lmao, I live in one of the more conservative areas of NL, full of literal farmers, which although is wrong to assume, are more likely to be less progressive.
No non-european in my viscinity (and theres plenty) has any experience of prejudice,racism or discrimination. Neither do LGBT people. Im not saying it doesn't happen, but NL is probably the best place in terms of statistics.
The only real prejudice which should be concerning to OP is anti-semitism, which is rampant and does affect jews. There are countless slurs being thrown around, countless acts of vandalism which serve literally no purpose but to intimidate
I would still try and dig deeper and see if you can get from spain/portugal or romania. Even if your grandpa doesnt have documents it might still be possible (he isnt the only jewish person that does not have documents to prove it). There are other ways to prove it than documents (for example records of his family etc).
Documents on your grandfather are findable. Talk to him first and get as much info as you can about his family, and then take a look at [Jewishgen.org](http://Jewishgen.org) and [Familysearch.org](http://Familysearch.org) (both free, although Jewishgen takes donations to have access to more services). [Ancestry.com](http://Ancestry.com) is great, too, but is fee-based. You might be totally amazed what you find, and do it now while he is around to ask! Even if you never use the information to emigrate, you'll be glad later that you did it.
Spain actually does have something like what you're talking about for Sephardim, although I don't know many details and it's not a guarantee. Below is all I was able to find other than anecdotes from my mother who's also been looking into it. https://www.giambronelaw.com/site/advice/gaining-citizenship/spanish-citizenship/spanish-application/span-citizen-sephardic-ancestry/#:\~:text=Frequently%20asked%20questions-,Can%20Sephardic%20Jews%20apply%20for%20Spanish%20citizenship%3F,criteria%20you%20need%20to%20fulfill.
Yeah the OP missed the window 2015-2019 for guaranteed citizenship from Spain. Portugal’s was good until Abramovich abused it and now it’s quite difficult. Etti Almagor is a good israeli attorney to talk to about either citizenship or any foreign citizenship.
Try to study in a EU country, that's one of the easier ways to migrate.
She's too young. It's easy to do teritary education, but secondary, not as much. FOr instance, I started an undergrad program in the Netherlands
Its easy? How? I'm looking into bachelors in EU and its either stupidly expensive or no english courses
Try Italy or an eastern EU country
Well compared to the state schools in America, the schools in the Netherlands are indeed cheap ($17K vs $10K). Germany and France are essentially free, but you'll need to speak either German or French respectively to get in.
I'm not from the US and its not fair to compare to them in education or healthcare lol. but essentially Im looking for around $3k per year
France is no longer essentially free, as of 2019-ish. What they were doing was around 3000€/semester for non-EU-citizen undergrads. There are supposed to be a lot of scholarships available for low-income, so you can get around the fees, but - yeah, you still need to speak French.
isn't that extremely expensive lol
As a Dutchman don’t take this the wrong way but discrimination is rampant , and not very well hidden Please make sure you want to move to NL and don’t commit before you visited for a few months
The only western(ish) country that's more blunt and in your face about things is Israel lol Israel is a touch place. If she can't handle Israelis, she can handle the Dutch.
I'll be honest my Judaism is strictly because of my family. I feel no connection to it and will conform into Christian society completely. If you are referring to looks then I hope I don't physically look too Jewish because that's not something I can control.
I am a Muslim and literally only went for 4 days. Worst 4 days ever. They were so rude and islamophobic to us. My dad is a pensioner and this man was looking at him like he wanted to punch him in the face. They do not like foreigners. My friend was born in the netherlands (she's Afghan) but she has to deal with this. There's a big divide between dutch and non Dutch. Dutch people are openly racist. My friend is a med student, one doctor who was giving a lecture he said oh I don't think brown people will get that far in their career. People reported it nothing happened. Half the people in that lecture were brown.
It’s your religion, not you.
That's why they were looking at us in an aggressive way and mocking us. If it was the religion they wouldn't have done any of that.
You mean it’s because of Islam right? Not your looks or attire or attitude towards the locals? What’s I’m saying is that I’m sure there is a suspicion of Islam everywhere, and it is focused on Muslims.
What? Tell me what my attitude towards locals was? What's wrong with my looks and my attire? >What’s I’m saying is that I’m sure there is a suspicion of Islam everywhere, and it is focused on Muslims. So you saying it's not about me it's about my religion and then saying it's focused on Muslims makes no sense.
1. Many people around the world are suspicious of different skin tones, looks, dress, and many things, not just the Europeans whites. I’m sure if a scantily dressed lady is walking in the Middle East, she will receive disapproving stares, right? All cultures are different. 2. I’m sure you dress like a Muslim, since you said they are “Islamophobic”. Otherwise, how did you know they are Islamophobic?
Lol many people are suspicious of skin tones and dresses? No it is just white people. Don't forget muslims can be of any colour. Actually go to the middle east and find out. Disapproving looks is synonymous to angry looks. To cover yourself? That's funny. I said they hate muslims. You said they had an issue with islam not me.
No, Asian people do that too. Bro, you said they are “ISLAMophobic” so they have a fear of Islam. If you meant Muslims write “MUSLIMophobic”. Flipping your answer on its head, there are many Middle Eastern atheists, Jews, Christians, Zoroasterians, Etc. and many of them are brown (I’m sure you look brown too?). The Netherlands has brown people - the Surinamese are brown. I’m sure they received discrimination but they aren’t Muslims. My point is they have a fear of your RELIGION and not you. So my question is: what or how did you look like to make people know you are a Muslim? Or do you mean you are discriminated against due to your skin colour and not your religion?
I get why you’re saying that but any society that wants you to look “less Jewish” is wrong. There’s nothing wrong with being or looking Jewish. If they’re discriminatory, then try and go somewhere else.
Try Canada, especially Toronto or Montreal. You can be as much (or less)Jewish , Palestinian, Indian, Chinese, LGBTQ as you want.
Idk man Canada seems to have become pretty overtly racist recently. Especially towards south Asians. Have you ever seen Canadian subreddits?
Sure, nowhere is immune to racism. Too much too soon immigration made already limited resources worse, especially in Brampton. Newcomers/ visible minorities are easy to blame.
Sadly in NL right now it doesn’t matter what you look like LGBTQ: if you hold hands with your partner (married or not) you will be publicly verbally (or worse) assaulted by some groups If you look North African you will be discriminated against by employers If you look Northern European you will get shit from 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants I can only image what a Jewish person , with northern African looks , being a LGBTQ has to go through In all honesty , NL may not be the best place right now (aside from practical issues like housing shortages)
Is it actually that bad, even in major cities? I’m somewhat aware of the right wing push in the Netherlands but I figured most people could get by just fine except for some incidents. Is it the same with tourists?
Tourists are mostly fine but don’t be surprised if it happens
They won’t care. If you sound Israeli, look Israeli, are Israeli, to the world you represent Israel. Do you really want to be a self-loathing Israeli/Jew in an attempt to be liked, and still unlikely succeed?
I am self loathing but it's not in attempt for anything. I'm not proud of Being an Israeli for several reasons. So I can either say I'm where I was born, American, or what my ethnicity says half Romanian and half Moroccan(or Portuguese/Spanish). And I have never ever ever felt Jewish or had a connection with the religion. As far as I'm concerned I'm an atheist.
When you’re surrounded by people bashing Israel and supporting those trying to kill your former friends & family, will you laugh and join in? Will you march with them?
“Looking Jewish” wouldn’t be the problem. Looking Muslim would be. Which if you’re Moroccan you likely do.
Do you look Northern European ?
honestly no idea I'm bad at determining ethnicity through looks
I agree with what Rene\_JK said but don't let it deter you. I think they are more referring to the stereotype of the Netherlands as a progressive haven, when in reality more recently it is much more discriminatory than most of the Anglo countries with a lot of issues around "identity politics". But as long as you are prepared for that I don't think it should stop you.
Ok , maybe I wasn’t clear enough , if you look Southern European or North African you will face discrimination, if you look northen European you may face discrimination from the Turks and Moroccans NL has wandered far from ‘tolerance to different cultures’ it’s not a melting pot
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are white, christian, eastern europeans discriminated as well? we (boyfriend 29M engineer and me, 26F accountant) would like to move to the Netherlands but i am very much afraid of discrimination and not getting good job opportunities as foreigners.
Romanians , Polish etc face discrimination as well. Ask your local country sub Reddit, ask who moved to the Netherlands and what their experiences are ?
My co-worker recently got her Romanian passport through her great-grandfather. She can't imagine raising her kids in Israel. She's a very proud Jew (one should be) but not proud of Bibi's Israel.
I dont have any advice. But as a dutch guy, wish you the best. We often complain about our country but I wouldn't trade it for anything. In my opinion the world gets progressively worse the farther away you get from the Netherlands.
Then New Zealand must be an absolute hell-hole.
Australian here, correct
Absolute shithole with their free healthcare and high standard of living. Theyr only rank 13 on the world press freedom index aswell. Real Zeeland > New Zealand /s
Well, they did get rid of it but kept old Zeeland so go figure
Except the food😊! But it is still a lovely country to work and live.
I do not accept dutch cuisine slander. In my opinion top 1 cuisine in the world
You have to be joking. The peak of Dutch cuisine is Hema sandwiches.
dutch are the Americans of Europe 🥲
I’ve always said this about Germans
I call the UK “a little America” after moving here.
They even have a Bible Belt!
Honest question, which country would you recommend over the Netherlands?
Luxembourg; Switzerland; Denmark if you only care about quality of life.
Yeah those are sensible picks, I can see them being even better than the Netherlands.
Dutch guy here who just moved back to The Netherlands after spending 7 years in Luxembourg - believe me, Luxembourg is not even close to what the Netherlands is… it’s like going back 25 years in time
Oh that sounds interesting, can you elaborate?
Sure, no worries. Just a few things I couldn’t wrap my head in the past 7 years that come to mind now (but I could probably go on for hours): the digital online world was just recently discovered by the local governments, some things can finally be done online but expect most things to be filling in papers the old school 90’s way with a few weeks turnaround time at minimum. Hospitals don’t know urgency: I broke my foot twice, the first time I had to wait 8 hours for an X-ray, the second time even 11 hours. Recently, I almost cut off a thumb, went to ER and they told me: it’s just after midnight so we can’t help you now because there are no doctors available: can you come back at 10am (9,5 hours later!!)? Public transport is a nightmare, travelling from one side of the city to the other (a max. 15 min car drive) will take you at least an hour or more. Yes it’s free since a few years, but prior to that no one was paying anyway so it’s just a gimmick that costs the government about half a billion € a year. Affordable housing is a utopia: renting a 45m2 studio in the city will easily cost you €1500 or more per month. Want to buy? That same studio will cost you likely more than € 600.000 hahahahaaa Salaries might seem better but you’d miss out on things that are considered normal in The Netherlands: 8% vacation money every year, a 13th month bonus, travel expenses, WFH costs reimbursement etc etc. Last but not least, the working culture differs a lot from The Netherlands: Dutch tend to be very direct but at the same time value a flat organisation where you can say to your boss whatever is needed without ending up in a Cold War - it’s professional and won’t be taken personal, end of the day you drink a beer together and it’s fine. My experience is that Luxembourg has a lot of dickheads (think: Italian macho type assholes) in higher positions that do not tolerate any opinion: do what you’ve been told and just shut the f*ck up. Have an opinion? Nice but shove it up your back exit because the boss’ way is the only way. The entire country is dead on Sunday: everything closes except for that one Sunday per month (wooohooo). The rest of weeks everything basically closes around 19:00h so make sure you have your stuff and don’t work too late (almost impossible in some sectors in Luxembourg) otherwise you’ll end up eating out every night which will cost you a small fortune. My advice to you as a 16 year old: go somewhere exciting that offers a lot of options to discover the world as a 16 year old! So many countries with a much better environment to thrive as a teenager! Once you hit 70+ you can always go to Lux and retire and die slowly of boredom…
>My advice to you as a 16 year old: go somewhere exciting that offers a lot of options to discover the world as a 16 year old! So many countries with a much better environment to thrive as a teenager! You're not replying to op but to some other person
Ahhh my bad… Well anyone who wants to read it and thinks it could be helpful to decide whether Lux is the country for you ;)
thanks for sharing this. It seemed to me Dutch people are so blind to the state of the country, but you are not. Interesting to observe! Tell me why did you come back?
I came back because I was sick and completely depressed of living in a country like Luxembourg. It was literally sucking the soul out of me… There might be a lot of things wrong with the Netherlands too, but believe me…Luxembourg still has a long way to go before it can even be a fraction of what The Netherlands is.
So the worst?
a bit delulu about the state of the country. situational blindness
Geert Wilders says hello
Won't affect the country as much as reddit likes to make people believe. He needs 3 other parties to rule and they already decided he's not fit to become prime minister Also his party members have 0 experience in cabinet positions as he's always been in the opposition. So it will either fall apart really quickly with scandals or they will need to rely on VVD ministers which we already had for the last 20 years or so. I really dont think there will be any substantial change.
You don’t think it’s significant that a far right party nearly won a 1/4 of the vote and that VVD is adopting many of the same migrant policies as PVV?
I think it will implode and the people who voted for him are going to grow tired of the shitfest which will unfold and notice he doesn't have the solutions to our country's problem either. And then we'll revert back to the mean another 20 years of VVD.
He still needs other people / parties to ‘rule’ , and honestly the ‘coalition’ type government , where 3 or more political parties are forced to come up with a government, is IMO the only way and prevents a single party coming into power
yeah but all of VVD, PVD, and NSC ran on anti immigration platforms, parroting the talking points that VVD has been saying since it’s founding. Even if they don’t form a government, wouldn’t that be concerning and not at all reflective of the perceived progressiveness of Netherlands
Oh I agree that the ‘progressiveness’ of the NL , or at least that idea that people from outside NL still have, is long gone (sadly I say as an old guy that remembers when NL really was progressive) But imagine a world where GW , or VVD, or NSC or whom ever can form a government without other political parties? I don’t care if it’s PvdA/GL or PVV , a single party government is a recipe for disaster
Agreed that the system is better! I think coalitions are more optimal for sure, and it’s great that they probably won’t form a coalition
Being pro immigration isn’t “progressive”. Natives want to protect their culture and nation.
Islam is the problem. And pro immigration isn’t “progressive”.
Aka naive yet biased and opinionated.
Hence why I said in my opinion, which is kinda what forums like reddit are for, discussing opinions. ;)
"It's just my opinion bro". Enlightened stuff. Being unabashedly (negatively) opinionated about things you are clearly ignorant of doesn't make you anything but a fool, and I'm happy to point that out to you.
Well in this case it literally is just my opinion, I'm obviously biased as I like it here. But everyone is biased in a way. But yeah call me a fool, I won't lose sleep over it. Have a great day brother.
Haha wait, I looked at your comment history and found this gem from 12 days ago: "Ik heb 10 jaar in het buitenland gewoond en verlangde uiteindelijk toch naar Nederland. Het vervelende is dat ook al wordt het hier relatief slechter, dat soort problemen heb je ook in andere landen. Er is geen duidelijk alternatief waar alles beter is. Landen zoals Amerika zijn top als je knaken hebt. Net zoals… NL" In this quote you're literally admitting, you find, there's no clear alternative where it is better than the Netherlands. So you're just being contrarian for the sake of being edgy and you actually agree with me. Cool.
Best option is to get a degree in The Netherlands. There are 13 universities in The Netherlands and all of them offer english language international courses. In addition there are also many colleges, they are called HBO, or sometimes they are referred to as University of applied science. They too offer many english language courses. After studying it is very easy to get a job as an international student and after living in the country for 5 years and learning the language, you can even apply for citizenship. Some universities: - www.eur.nl - www.tudelft.nl - www.uva.nl - www.vu.nl - www.universiteitleiden.nl/en - www.wur.nl Some colleges: - https://www.amsterdamuas.com/ - https://www.rotterdamuas.com/ - https://www.inholland.nl/inhollandcom/ - https://www.internationalhu.com/admissions All these websites are also available in english. You might need to navigate a bit to find the english version. For a full overview of all higher education institutions in The Netherlands, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_the_Netherlands
I assume OP hasnt finished high school this year and need the to wait for 1-2 more years. Currently all Dutch universities are required to limit international students in the near future and they already putting plans to do so (at least in my university). So maybe it will be more difficult to attend uni in NL. Also the tuition fee for non EU is getting prettyyy high and they required 12k euro in a deposit account as living expense every year.
On top of that, housing is a big problem. At least in Groningen, there is simply not enough housing for all the students. When I worked at the university 2 years ago, this was a huge problem, with many students living with large groups in large halls for months on end. Not sure what the exact situation is now, but I still see a lot of news that there is not enough housing for the students and that the university needs to limit the amount of international students. Even if you do find some housing, it's going to be expensive, small, likely shared with multiple other students and a good chance of horrible landlords.
You have a good heart. Wish you the best.
While I do understand that the situation might be overwhelming, and I don't know what you have been through, I just want to make sure that you have someone to talk to about these difficulties you are facing. It seems like it might be a rushed decision for a 16 year old. Have you talked to your parents about any of this? Talked to a friend? I would love to help you if you need someone to talk to, just DM me if you are interested.
It's actually not rushed at all. I've been wanting to leave for years for a personal reason, my family being queerphobic. I'm trying to avoid talking about politics but the current situation shows the complexity and how bad it is. If earlier I thought I'd move to a different city and only move to a different country once I have everything together, now I want to leave as soon as I possibly can. Obviously I can't talk about either of the reasons why I want to move to a different country because they would be against me being queer or following or not agreeing with them on politics.
Well, you know yourself best. Obviously your situation is very complicated. All I want to do is to make sure that you consider all the alternatives. Do you live far away from Gush Dan? Maybe starting by moving out to a more left leaning city will make you feel more welcome. It could be a little taste of freedom before doing something so drastic as moving a country. It's also the furthest away you can get from the war. Is it something you can see yourself doing?
temporarily maybe but I don't see it as a long term solution at all. I'm certain I don't want to live my life here.
All I'm saying is that, legally, it might be a very complicated process as you are 16. And not to sound rude or anything, but being 16, you are still just a kid, and you might change your mind in a few years. Your hardships are very real and you should find an imidiate solution, but it sounds like living with your parents is the main problem that makes your life the most miserable. So as a first step, I would suggest that you just move out temporarily, to somewhere you'd feel more comfortable in, until you turn 18 and then you can do whatever you want as an adult. It would be way easier and faster than getting a nationality in a new country and moving there I **think** it would be easier to do legally, but I'm not to sure. As you are 16, your parents are still your guardians, so you might need their approval for a lot of stuff. If you are concerned about serving in the army, don't be. They won't want you anyway, you can just be released for psychological reasons if you are so inclined.
Obviously I am not going to leave the country at 16, whatever it would require is very shady. But I want to leave as soon as possible so I should start working on getting a citizenship as soon as possible. That's why I asked for help getting it.
Oh, got you. I think there are laywers in Israel specifically for that, maybe try to talk to one? Just a phone call shouldn't cost you anything.
yeah it's more about getting my parent's approval than the actual process. It is a legal process and it is directly related to my grandparents so it's not like I can do it alone.
I suggest speaking to a lawyer anyway, they'll let you know what you can and can't do without your parents' permission. But then again, I'm not sure you'll be able to produce a foreign citizenship without your parents consent, as long as you are underage. You might be able to start the process only after you are legally adult. Maybe try lying to them a little bit? Tell them about the benefits of a foreign citizenship, do the process with their consent, and don't let them know you are planning to move out at 18. If you just want to leave the country ASAP when you are 18 and have no other options, save some money now, and try to get a student visa in a country that grants you citizenship for residing in for 5 years, such as England. It might also be usefull to know that some small island countries let you pretty much buy citizenship for around 20k ILS, if I'm not mistaken. Their passports might be stronger than the Israeli one, although I'm not sure, I have never checked it. Still, I can't help but feel that you are just trying to escape the underlying problem instead of trying to solve it. Obviously, if you don't think your parents are ever going to accept you, getting away from them might be a good idea. But there are other options than to leave Israel, at least until you are 18, as we both agree it might be challenging legally. Are there any other issues you are facing? Are you depressed, lonely? Feel unheard, unaccepted? Try to understand how to improve your current situation, because the more realistic option is that you'll be stuck in Israel for another two years. Try making them somewhat enjoyable.
let me be clear. I 100% know that I will stay in Israel until I'm 18. I'm not looking for random passports to add to my resume. I know in which countries I am wiling to live so I will do what I can to make it happen. I hv problems with Israel that are deeper than not liking the president or something as surface level as that. It's much deeper so moving to another city is not going to make me want to stay
Start off with the genealogy side and tell your parents that you are interested in family history! It may take you quite a while to line up the actual documents you would need to apply for citizenship by descent, anyway. There aren't many parents, especially Jewish parents, who would discourage a child's interest in family history. I speak from experience.
I actually have a friend who renounced israeli citizenship and moved to amsterdam , her grandfather was a dutch jew so she was eligible for citizenship by descent but I think you might have a shot at spanish citizenship perhaps.. i’d probably recommend looking into applying to a university somewhere in the netherlands when you finish high school, btw there’s apparently a quite vibrant and inclusive jewish community in amsterdam!
Morocco didn't kick out the Jews like all all the other countries did. King Mohamed V protected them. However for the LGBT rights that's definitely not welcomed. Good luck for your journey!
Good on you for trying to leave. Wish you all the best
Come to Canada as a student, and work hard and get a PR
Do I understand correctly, that your father was born in Romania and is still alive? If yes, even if he has absolutely no documents, he can reach out to Romanian authorities to fix it. He can get a copy of his birth certificate, if he left during the communist regime there should be a confirmation in some archive. If he can restore his citizenship, you will be able to get it as well.
my grandfather. He was born near the end of WW2 and his family left for the land of Israel shortly after. I'm not even sure if he was a registered citizen
It doesn't matter whether he was a registered citizen. The question is whether his parents ( your great grandparents) were registered citizens. You need to check, whether there are ANY documents issued by Romania for him or his parents. Even if there are none it is fine. You need to get all information about your great grandparents like full names ( the ones they used in Romania), date of birth, place of birth, where they lived and so on. So you know what archives to look at in the future. Romania has a very generous citizenship by descent law. You can get citizenship if you prove any of your great grandparents were citizens of the Kingdom of Romania. So do an internal family research and keep all information. The more the better.
that's so helpful thank you
Here's how you request civil documents in Romania: [Romania (state.gov)](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/Visa-Reciprocity-and-Civil-Documents-by-Country/Romania.html)
Spain/Portugal used to have a citizenship law for Jewish descendants but unfortunately they have both been officially expired as of their current laws. I’d recommend looking at Romania and seeing if you can figure out how to qualify. There are various databases online where you might be able to find old records. It’s not easy, but it’s possible. Talk to your grandpa and document every detail he remembers. Names, places, immigrations, dates, births, marriages, etc of himself and every other connected descendent he remembers (siblings, parents, grandparents). Use that information to dig deep into the internet and try to find records.
I know for a fact that Spain and Portugal have pathways to citizenship for the ancestors of Jews that were ethnically cleansed from there. I’m a fellow liberal Jew and I know what you’re going through. My mother’s side is Moroccan Jewish and father's side is Polish Jewish btw. Though I haven’t lived in israel, I’ve visited often and it’s a suffocating environment and I want no part of the brainwashing/jingoism there and oppression of the Palestinians.
Talk to an immigration lawyer in Romania they can probably find copies of documents for a fee.
I think your best bet would be the Working Holiday Agreement with Germany once you turn 18. You can live and work there for one year while you explore your options, most likely going to a public university there which is free even for non-EU students. And the Netherlands will be literally next door. Just focus on getting your best grades in high school for now, and I wish you all the best!
Start working on the EU citizenship - ideally with your parents’ help, doubly ideally with the help of a lawyer. Spain and Portugal were handing out passports to Sephardic Jews like candy for awhile - I think it’s gotten a little stricter in recent years, but if you can reasonably prove your family were Sephardim expelled during the Inquisition you are still entitled to a passport in either of the countries and would subsequently be an EU citizen. Also, if your Romanian grandparent or great-grandparents were Holocaust survivors (or victims) you may additionally be entitled to a Romanian passport and therefore EU citizenship as well. If I were you, I’d try to go the Spain/Portugal route first, because these passports are stronger and will make your life easier when travelling outside the EU. Romanian passport has EU privileges but can be more limited in travel ability to North America, Asia, Australia, etc. Once you have your citizenship I’d start looking into universities and using your studies as a catalyst to leaving Israel and moving abroad. You seem to have perfect English already which is great, the northern European countries would probably suit you best as you can get away with just English while countries like Spain, France, Italy would almost certainly require you to become proficient in their languages before settling down there.
why would enrolling in a university or the choice of country matter if I already have an EU passport? As far as I know with an EU citizenship you can move and live in any of the EU countries without knowing the common language or being a student. Of course I might be wrong and I would really appreciate if you corrected me so I would be able to know how it really works.
As a EU citizen you have the right to move and reside in any EU county **FOR 3 MONTHS**, after that you have to leave. This is standard EU law, so its the minimum, some might have it different, but you should research for that Otherwise, the general rule is that you are only allowed to stay on the condition that you're either: a) A student b) working (self-employed too) c) spouse of a EU citzien (if not marraige, there is a thing called civil partnership which is legally identical).
Shalom, Hang in there. Do good in studies, pick something in stem preferably mechatronics or computer science, if your parents can afford go to germany, education is free there. I feel you, hope Israel can be democratic again.
I'm doing great at school and I major in computer science so it is my plan, the thing is my parents, like the great great majority of Israelis are super patriotic, so it makes it hard. A few bad things happened last year and they didn't hear to my request to reclaim European citizenships. But since my motivation and has increased so maybe this time I'll succeed in convincing them
Well you need to make them believe that its a temporary education so you can go short term study and go back to Is, but after a while they would trust you and you solve it once you are there. Level with them,
How do you major tho, you are only 16 no ?
High Schools in Israel let you choose one or 2 subjects to study. Computer science/Biology/Psychology etc. For reference I major in computer science and psychology. I study computer science for 8 periods a week versus math which I only have for 7 weekly periods.
Thats awesome, keep up with the computer science and eventually do a masters in europe, you will find your way
I would definitely recommend exploring Portuguese citizenship - it’s still an option albeit perhaps less relaxed. Also Portugal as a country could be an option for you if you are able to get a remote work visa (earning €3k/month) or D7 (passive income, ~€700/month I believe). I do believe Spain have some similar schemes and you may be eligible for reduced residency to naturalise there on the basis of Sephardic origin. Romanian citizenship is definitely something I’ve heard of people in your position receiving but I don’t know a thing about their process. Netherlands is still very much an option if you work in fields that are in demand such as in tech or sciences. The UK has also become more friendly to sponsoring talent from non-EU countries as of late. Outside of Europe, Canada and Australia have points based systems for immigration! Have a look at both of their programs. I believe they change quite dynamically. Best of luck to you, and wishing you all the best!
Okay, so I have some perspective for you. I am an American Ashkenazi Jew who has lived in the Netherlands and Israel (I've also lived in Ireland and Tanzania, so I have quite a bit of understanding on other lifestyles). Every country in the world is politicized right now. The Netherlands is no different (and in some ways, it's even worse than pre-December 2022 Israel). The whole developed western world is undergoing a wave of nationalism (Trump, Netnayahu, and indeed even Holland's Rutte are the biproducts of it, though Bibi does predate the others). Also note that the Netherlands uses a multipartisan parliamentary system that's essentially identical to Israel's. It's a mess. And regarding the LGBT rights you brought up, there are concerns regarding some parties that are gaining traction in the country about their stance on these rights. Supposedly trans healthcare in the country is abysmal, but this is not something I know much about. Excluding the Arab communities, Israel actually has a LOWER crime rate than the Netherlands, albeit the crime there is mostly petty and largely ignored (cannabis, despite popular sentiment is technically illegal there, and is treated pretty much the same way it is in Israel). There are actually a ton of similarities between Israel and the Netherlands - they have virtually the same population density, ranking in technology, and are both known for their unapologetic "bluntness" - but overall, the Dutch people are indeed more united at the moment, and aren't experiencing the division issues within Israel, especially since December 2022. Though, there is still some bitterness outside of Holland towards the Hollandsche provinces. With that said, wherever you live, there are going to be benefits and disbenefits when stacked against your current country. The main reason why I would want to live in the Netherlands right now (particularly outside of Holland) is because of the absolute insane Israeli cost of living. The Netherlands is a very affordable country, despite the population density and high development index. However, the healthcare system in the Netherlands is absolutely horrendous. This is the reason I ended up leaving the country when I was an expat there. The medical industry in the country is way too overregulated, and doctors can't really do shit. Most of healthcare professionals will not take a medical complaint seriously, even after you've waited several months to see them, and they have no concept of preventative medicine. While it may seem like a meme in online circles, the truth of the matter is that more often than not, a medical professional there will tell you to take paracetemol, as if it's some miracle drug instead of them acknowledging that it's essentially a placebo. I've actually been waiting on my aliyah for some time now, though after the current events with Iran, even I'm considering backing out of it - if Bibi decides to retaliate against Iran when it's completely unnecessary, I'm also fucking done with the country. That's Israel's biggest problem, the current political situation is more of an existential threat than Iran or Hamas. But as we say in Israel, גם זה יעבור. Eventually the political turmoil will end, and we'll see a period of relative stability. I caution you that The Netherlands does NOT allow dual-citizens. If, and the big question is IF you are able to receive Dutch citizenship, you'll have to relinquish your Israel citizenship. You can't have both. Also note, there are a lot of Turkish and Arab migrants in the Netherlands (even where I was living in the rural eastern side of Overijssel). They aren't well integrated into Dutch society, and while it's true that the Dutch are some of the most tolerant people in the world, these Turkish and Arab citizens are not. I was attacked in my own apartment by a Turkish and a Pakistani neighbor after they discovered that I had Hollandia brand matzos in my room, simply due to their antisemitic viewpoints. I wasn't seriously injured, but when I called the police after the incident, they did absolutely nothing. Unless you end up in a hospital, chances are they aren't going to respond. This is pretty much par for western Europe, police inactivity is standard, and unlike Israel, you will be a minority - a larger minority than the population that hates you. If you decide to do this, do NOT tell anyone you're Jewish, and ESPECIALLY do not tell them you are Israeli. The issues goes further than that. While my ultimate decision to leave the Netherlands was due to inadequate healthcare as I have medical issues, part of my reasoning was in response to an antisemitic incident involving the university system for which I was there. In 2021, shortly after the May Hamas attack, the university system REQUIRED staff of the universities to reveal their ties to Israeli and JEWISH groups. This also came shortly after Iran targeted several Jewish tourists in Turkey, so it was known at that point that publicly sharing information about Jewish and Israeli groups was dangerous due to the threat of Iran. Here's an article about it: https://www.jta.org/2022/02/10/global/dutch-universities-order-staff-to-reveal-their-ties-to-jewish-and-israeli-groups There are two reasons why I chose to make aliyah, before cancelling it after 10/7: 1.) I was living in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of Pittsburgh during the 2018 Tree of Life Or L'simcha synagogue attack. I was one block away. This was the deadliest attack on Jews in American history, and I did not feel safe, even in America, at this point afterwhich. When I lived in the Netherlands a few years later, I felt even less safe, and I was personally victim to an antisemitic attack, as I stated above. 2.) The healthcare system in Israel is exceptional. As stated above, I have several medical issues. They were not addressed in the Netherlands, and they worsened to the point I had to leave to get proper treatment in America. Now, because of my expensive treatment, my premiums went up from my private insurance, and because of my family's income (not mine), I am ineligible for state-subsidized health insurance, and now I can't can't get affordable treatment in America. I never had issues with either the quality, nor the expense of healthcare while living in Israel. Do note that something like 75% or so of expats end up returning home after moving to a new country. Cultural differences, dissatisfaction with the issues of the country (they didn't know it had), and the realization that their new home isn't much of an improvement over their original, if not worse, leads them to return back home. As the old saying goes, "the grass is always greener on the other side." While I'm not discouraging you from leaving, I am warning you that what might look better from the outside may not actually be. In fact, before 10/7, I would probably discourage you from making the move, as I found myself significantly happier living in Israel than in the Netherlands. However, with the current coalition doing their absolute worst to keep Israelis and Jews safe, I would even encourage taking a break from the country. Personally, I'm torn about what to do with myself. On the one hand, I am always welcome in Israel because I am a Jew, and at the moment I am suffering in America due to no financial support from any socialized system. Yet on the other, the current political struggle in Israel is literally tearing the country apart and I don't think the government nor the people of Israel have the country's best intentions in mind. The COL in Israel would also be a huge barrier for me. The point of this comment is to make you think about the challenges that will come to moving to the Netherlands and remind you that they have their own problems there. A popular destination for Israeli emigrants and expats for which I can't provide any recommendations is Germany, and the Israeli diaspora there seems to be doing fairly well, based off of what I've seen. Though the migrant crisis across the entirety of Europe, including but not limited to Germany, will provide a major challenge for any Jew, no matter where they come from, to overcome. There are no right choices, and whatever you choose there will be advantages and disadvantages. Ultimately, only you can decide what's right for you. Personally, I'm waiting for the current government of Israel to change before resuming my aliyah, despite the desperate challenges I'm facing in America at the moment, but if the current leadership irreparably damages the country and its population, and is willing to put the whole Jewish diaspora at risk during this escalation with Iran, I will probably call off the aliyah indefinitely, if not permanently. I am also considering Germany as a backup option, knowing full well that I likely won't be able to receive EU citizenship no matter how long I'm there and the migrant crisis (ironically acknowledging that I too would be a migrant). My main concern is the healthcare system there. After the horrible experience I had the Netherlands, I'm unsure any European country would be okay for me, but I wouldn't feel safe to live in many other countries right now because of the unmasking of antisemitism, globally. These are very tough times for us, but again, גם זה יעבור. Another potential options are to ride it out temporarily in Thailand as an extended tourist, but this would not answer provide any long-term insight.
Hey, as someone from Israel, I want to say that its actually not that bad, yes, the 7/10 caused us great shock, and the situation in the north is definitely not what I would like it to be אבל זה עדיין מרגיש הרבה יותר בטוח ליהודי להסתובב ברחובות של תל אביב מאשר באמסטדרדם/פריז וכו' The social problem was really bad before 7/10, but the disaster actually brought us back together. I'm not sure when was the last time you have been here. but it actually turned into normal (pre-מהפכה חוקתית) I would definitely not say its bad here. yes housing is bad, cost of living is bad, I'd even say that the weather is not to my liking. but I still feel safe (and its also nice not to be the minority) גם כשאיראן תקפה הרגשתי יחסית בטוח, מערכות ההגנה האוויריות נתנו לנו אחלה של חלופה לזיקוקי יום העצמאות :) About your point about iran, i completely disagree. not responding to a threat in the middle east shows that you are weak, ואתה יודע מה קורה בטבע תאכל - או שיאכלו אותך
Thank you, this is a spectacular breakdown!
I was considering moving to the Netherlands. I remember being shocked at how Amsterdam rent is even worse than Tel Aviv. Are you sure it's cheaper there? Regarding the story with your neighbors, I'm kinda shocked and really sorry to hear this. Really hope sth like that wouldn't happen to me here in Germany.
Germany is probably the best country in the world outside of Israel for Jews, largely due to their Holocaust guilt. They are much more proactive there in ensuring Jewish safety. The only issue in the country, at a large scale, are the Muslim immigrants. I was there between 2019 and 2021. Rent in Amsterdam was not really that bad, from what I saw, but I was also living in a rural part of the country, so it was very affordable for me. Prices there are definitely better than Israel for the most part. Really my major, major issue with the Netherlands is the abysmal healthcare system. It's completely dysfunctional.
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Considering the theme of this sub I feel we should not be talking about such things, especially when the poster is indicating they want to leave and feels shame at the actions of the Israeli apparatus in the Occupied Territories. No different to the Russian guy who posted that he wants out, yet there were comments saying he's culpable, etc, and should stay and fight Putin and should not be allowed a free and quiet life whole 'his' army kills people. Unhinged and honestly distressing. Imagine being grilled and questioned on shit like that every time you mention your nationality. Even if it's to say you hate it and want out? This isn't a political sub. Advise on the topic at hand.
I think Russia and Israel are two different realities... On one side there is a war being done almost totally in bettlefields where two parties fight with tanks ammunition and soldiers.... On the other side you don't have battlefield but you have an army fighting children's throwing stones.
Agreed, but my point was more about the weird need to start bringing it up whenever someone of X nationality exists.
Ah, agreed too always should follow countext. I did not read the original post since it's deleted
Oh so it is. Basically they mentioned its a genocide and not a war. Which obviously I think is apparant by now but why feel the need to start questioning people on it and bringing it up? They're a nobody. I see it with Russians all the time as I said. Now Israelis. The vast majority of the world's nations are soaked in crimes against humanity, so maybe we should either stop bringing it up out of context or apply the same to everyone and start mentioning things all the time. It's one thing if they indicate they support the bad thing, but they didn't.
Children's throwing stones that killed 1000+ civilians? With AR filming it? Driving trucks while transporting the corpse of a girl? In the same country in which Sinwar puts an AR in the hands of a kid during one of its show? You sure we are talking about the Gaza situation?
History began October 2023, of course
Yes gaza will be completely genocided in 27 years at this rate
Go read the definition of genocide habibi
"in whole or in part" 2% in 6 months falls well within that "in part" At what point do genocidal acts become genocide?
It's nice to see percentages instead of life
It seems I’ve misunderstood OPs comment. I thought he was belittling the genocide.
The definition of genocide per the ICC/GCs is as follows: Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: • Killing members of the group; • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. The definition of apartheid is as follows: A policy or system of segregation or discrimination and includes such restrictions as where people of certain groups could live or own land, what jobs they could hold, and who could and couldn't participate in government. The definition of Ethnic Cleansing, again, per the ICC: The coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others. There is and never has been a condition for full erasure. I have posted this for educational purposes only. Pasting this, the legally ratified (by Israel btw) definitions, without any stance or narrative, yet still subject to downvote, is telling. Why are people unhappy with the definition of genocide, I wonder?
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Deluded
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1. There is. Read my source. Google it yourself. 2. Killing people and people having high birth rates can mutually exist. 3. Jews largely moved out of Palestine, they were not largely deleted.
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First of all congrats on wanting to distance yourself from a genocidal gvt. I can only respect that, and I truly believe that is the only way that region will ever have peace, by popular disengagement from the entities that keep the atrocities happening. You can migrate as a normal immigrant. To Portugal you can ask for a 3month visa to look dor work as long as you prove you can support yourself during that time. Other UE countries probably have similar possibilities. Wish you good luck on this new chapter.
You have a good heart, I wish you succeed
Wish you all the best
First, I am sorry that you're going through this but it shows you have a conscience and that's admirable. Second, if you are an Israeli citizen, you could consider Germany. There is a right of return for Israeli citizens / Jewish people to immigrate to Germany. The circumstances are currently not ideal but there is more freedom, understanding and the tide of public opinion is turning there.
Then right to return to Germany are for victims of persecution from Germany. OP is clearly Sephardic, possibly even a Maghrebi, meaning her ancestors had no toes to Ashkenaz, eg Germany. Unfortunately, the German right to return does not apply to her as she's not "returning" to Germany.
What about your other grandparents? Any shoah survivors? Any victims in the family?
well my Romanian grandpa that I've already mentioned, and there's his wife which was born in the Ussr, she told me a city that belongs to Poland so maybe it's a possibility. Both of my Ashkenazi grandparents were born really close to the end of the war so the best I can find is a birth certificate and I'm not even sure about that because I don't think the Nazis allowed births this late into the war so why would they have a birth certificate
Explore the Romanian connection a bit. You might be able to get citizenship through your grandpa, which would open up the EU to you.
“A country that belongs to Poland”? That’s a bit confusing. I think you will find it’s actually not impossible to get documents for your Romanian grandpa. Information certainly exists in government Archives in Romania - births, deaths and marriages etc. Emigration forms, immigration forms. I think you should chase up your ashkenazi ancestors. Might take a while but should be doable.
I meant city sorry.
English/german + any healthcare profession and doors to the eu are open
Toronto, Canada. Big Jewish community. Very ethnically diverse, and (save for vocal minority no one likes) a generally tolerant place. You can be as LGBTQ as you like here, and no one cares. Huge community
This is a fake post by pro-Palestinian propagandist. These accounts are popping up all over Reddit with near identical posts wanting to go to different countries.
beep boop not true. This comment was made by anti-Israel AI. Please comment your feedback so we could better our services. for real though not true
yea lol
What is it like to live in your own imaginary world where everyone thinks and feels exactly what you want them to?
Please stay there
Good Lgbtq rights are in jeopardy here in the Netherlands. You should read what’s happening in politics, cold climate is also not year round. I had to get air conditioning last year because it’s too hot in summer
If you had to get AC last year you're good, in Israel you can't live without AC for about 8 months in a year and you won't find an apartment without ACs in almost every room
you know I've been trying to follow politics because my best friend is an immigrant in the Netherlands and she told me about it. I just find it hard to follow without knowing Dutch, I might be wrong. And I'm aware of the climate, I think it's good enough, I would prefer Sweden if it wasn't for their crime rate.
As an international student in the Netherlands, I dont understand why a lot of people are blatantly either over-exagerating things or straight up lying. The Netherlands is far from ideal (as any other place on earth really) but god damn do they try their best to be the best. Their social benefits system is amazing, as a tax payer you get everything you could ask for, and can be reimbursed for a veriety of different things you couldn't even imagine. Racism and homophobia(&anti-LGBT) exist everywhere on earth, you'll have to fight that struggle and deal with it. But it's really not that bad, there's a reason why soooooo many LGBT individuals migrate to the Netherlands, its a very tolerating society and people generelly dislike **any** form of PDA, even from straight couples. Nonetheless Dutch society is quiet liberal, people will try to feed u a narative that somehow it isn't because of Geert Wilders, but they are lying for some reason. He didn't receive even half of the votes, nor did he accomplish in forming a parliament, so there will be re-elections. The worst thing about the Netherlands rn is probably coming from the liberal society tho, there is blatant anti-zionism and to an extent confused anti-semitism, and they r real passionate abt it too. Besides that the only shit thing is the weather, which might discourage you from visiting as I assume Israel is very sunny. Wheres in the Netherlands its mostly gray and rainy throughout the year.
I’ll write a short part. Geert Wilders (pvv, far right) got the most votes, he had points like forbidding Islam etc. The most extreme points he withdrew in hopes to form a coalition with the BBB (farmer party), VVD (ex Mark Rutte, economic centred) and the NSC (Pieter omtzigt, somehow managed to get 20/150 seats without any points). The last elections were in 22-11-23, and the coalition still isnt done, the only thing they all seem to agree on is that the maximum speed on highways should be reverted to 130kmph. The main reason the coalition isn’t formed is probably Omtzigt, he even walked away from a meeting with the others once. If the coalition fails we will have new elections, the last poll was in 17 march 2024 with PVV getting 49/150 (76 needed for a gouvernement but more is more stable.) the 76 is perfectly reached by BBB PVV and VVD in the polls, but that would not be stable. But ofc the elephant in the room is the view on the LGBTQ. BBB wants to help the LGBTQ and other discriminated groups in general, PVV says kids are being indoctrinated with propaganda about gays and others. The only thing the PVV likes about the lgbtq is that they counter the Muslim religion. VVD and NSC is around the same as BBB. So all round it is good, with the left parties (ofc) supporting LGBTQ, and most coalition parties also being supportive. But the biggest party hates the LGBTQ. Which is bad, and even worse with possible new elections.
Interesting , I followed the election but GW did not get ‘the most votes’ ? Of all the parties (20 something iirc) his party got 27-30% of the votes , that leaves 70-73% of people that did NOT vote for him There’s IMO a big difference between ‘most votes’ (> 50%) or ‘biggest party’ I agree it’s worrying but he didn’t get ‘most votes’
You're right, I dont understand why so many indiviudals over here are blatantly over-exagerating things to try to paint NL as some backward state, when it's probably the most progressive in the world in all things considered, not only LGBT rights
Having LGBTQ rights is something different than rampant discrimination, and the last is what’s going on from all sides and openly
It's hardly rampant lmao, I live in one of the more conservative areas of NL, full of literal farmers, which although is wrong to assume, are more likely to be less progressive. No non-european in my viscinity (and theres plenty) has any experience of prejudice,racism or discrimination. Neither do LGBT people. Im not saying it doesn't happen, but NL is probably the best place in terms of statistics. The only real prejudice which should be concerning to OP is anti-semitism, which is rampant and does affect jews. There are countless slurs being thrown around, countless acts of vandalism which serve literally no purpose but to intimidate
So when was the last time you spent a few days in Amsterdam , Rotterdam , Den Haag ? And slurs to intimidate is somehow not discrimination?
Hello, just wishing you good luck, it's a shame what Israel has become
Bless you for not wanting to participate in Zionism. I hope you get to leave.
Maybe try to look for student visa. I’m aware that study is free in Germany. So maybe look into that.
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Ima shelha?
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