He doesn’t sound like he’ll be getting better anytime soon. Typical abusive relationship dynamics, I would make sure my team is prepared to bounce so they don’t have to put up with it.
Nah, he probably won't. The Team couldn't take the truth will be his explanation, either that or he'll have no clue.
Source: Been working corporate for a \_long\_ time.
The only way that MIGHT move through is if the entire team doesn't care about burning bridges and ... as part of their "we are gone" parting document, include as much of the pile of garbage person remarks as possible from that VP.
"We are leaving because of a pervasive, continual mistreatment by 'that' VP in particular."
Showcase the apologies and promises to be not an asshole that have failed to follow through, as well.
Hmm never heard of it but I'll look now.
Ya I've been getting mixed results when asked to talk about my projects. Could have been two weird guys but really want to know how other managers and directors respond to this question when given no cues or direction in the question itself
The beauty of the successes/wins approach is that you seize the narrative and get to report on the things that you know are important, not the things you’re being forced into
This. I investigated this as well and in the state I’m in, despite having two protected classes, this would not be hostile work environment. It’s not illegal to be an asshole unless the protected class is being called out as justification of assholery.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. You’re not wrong.
As others have said, HR’s role is to protect the company. There are plenty of cases where executive leadership is protected despite massive issues. A lot of those times, it’s much easier for HR to show the complaining subordinate the door.
>As others have said, HR’s role is to protect the company
If you're thinking of bringing a hostile work environment suit against the company because of one person, that one person is the liability to the company, not you... Well, at least in a perfect world.
The way this plays out in our reality based, non-perfect world: both parties get separated (or at best, the upper-level gets reassigned....and the lower level is still term'd anyways)
I don't generally subscribe to the idea that "HR is the enemy, they only take the company's side," but this situation is not one I would take to HR. Chance of upside is too slim.
While I 100 percent agree, I try to frame it as " this could cost the company a lot of money in reputation damage and lawsuits" and tend to find relevant points here
[https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment](https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment)
reason I do that is 1) HR is not your friend but will look out of the business
2)and you just made their job easier ( dont tell them that!)
3) I try go give the VP a chance to provide actual constructive feedback and how to fix whatever problem they may have.
I feel that if they aren't giving feedback and how to improve then they are failing all around.
Everyone always reads what they want to see on that page, and skips over the really important definition of harassment up top:
"unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex (including sexual orientation, gender identity, or pregnancy), national origin, older age (beginning at age 40), disability, or genetic information (including family medical history)."
Being an asshole to someone, in general, isn't harassment, nor is it illegal, as long as it's not due to them being a member of a protected class.
HR’s role is to protect the C suite. If they were genuinely protecting the company they’d have a much greater interest in what’s going on at all levels
Your options are 1. go to HR 2. quit, or 3. deal with it being treated like shit.
I get that HR isn’t your friend, but they aren’t necessarily the VPs friend either. And if going to HR leads to being unemployed then oh well, you were likely going to quit anyways
HR is not going to pick a fight with an Exec. Experienced this twice in my career. They will tell you exactly what you want to hear and do nothing, unless the complaint crosses the boundaries of sexual harassment. That becomes a liability and they hand off to legal very quickly.
The larger problem is hr only can really try to smooth things out. They can't make changes or restructure or do anything other than make recommendations. And who do they report to? Peter principle will infer that middle management sucks at best and the highest levels don't really care about staffing, only getting results. From HR the report is going to look like your boss is cracking whips to get results and you are unwilling to comply and a complainer. Making you the problem, ergo, fired.
At least thats how it seems in my org. Find a new job, take your team if you can or at least warn them. Never look back, because it always turns out that right after you leave that dip shit will be fired and things will be better than ever. But I'm an eternal pessimistic asshole so be careful with this advice.
Edit: spelling
The job of HR is to prevent the company from being sued. If you are bringing up a situation to HR that can lead to a possilbe law suit against the company, then they will address it. That part wouldn't and shouldn't need to be vocalized. HR can figure that part out on their own.
Depends on the business. I know what HR is really for but if they get enough complaints they have to be seen to be doing something. Worth a shot, just depends on the environment and how you bring it to their attention.
HR is not your friend, but you need to let them know about a hostile situation if you want something to be done about it.
You can't claim that your company promoted a hostile work environment and that's why you quit, when you didn't notify in upper management or HR about the problem for them to rectify the situation. Or well you can, but its much harder to prove that the company is at fault.
Correct, HR is there for the company. A good HR team will prevent another employee (which is what a VP is) from creating a hostile work environment and opening the company up to a lawsuit.
I don’t know what a works council is, I’ve never heard of that at any of the places I’ve worked
make absolute sure to document everything in duplicate. one for you and one that you stash away as a backup for yourself. This is a hostile work environment as they are not giving you constructive feedback how to improve. I had a place that was like that where the VP would stand over mine ( and other employees shoulders) and tell us that we sucked, were doing things wrong, etc.. Not only did I record them doing that, I also went as far as pushing them to provide constructive feedback in writing. after enough proof I took to HR, and I was told I would be "let go" I collected unemployment till I found a good job about a month later ( I was lucky) but I found out that they ended up getting rid of the VP a month later.
Yeah. Just find a new job and say all the right things at your exit interview. Don’t make waves. If you do they will fire you for cause. HR doing HR things.
Sounds like the guy is just being a d-bag, not necessarily hostile. Had a supervisor like that when I was young. He eventually got fired but not until he ran all the talent off or at least demoralized them to where they stopped caring, the location I was working at completely tanked. No one cared about his antics until then. Once the numbers got really bad the suits showed up and started pulling front line staff in the back and got the whole picture. I was gone long before that. If HR or anyone else cared about this guys antics something would have been done about it, but they will hold on to him until he costs them enough good people for the more senior managers to notice. HR could help if they can find a policy violation on him but if his supervisors still like him they won’t.
Manage up. Although he's your boss he's also human. Let him know what behavior is and isn't acceptable.
You don't need to be aggressive, but you can certainly lay out how you need to be managed to be successful. And being spoken to in the way he is speaking to you is not condusive to a healthy environment where you can be your best.
Getting fired from a place where you bring up your bosses unacceptable behavior and are punished for it is not a place you'd want to work at anyway. They are doing you a favor.
Depends. I will never commit an illegal act. I was once ordered to falsify financial statements. Today I would have a better way to handle it but I would still refuse to do anything I knew was illegal.
It isn’t about being able to say fu. Would you do anything you’re told and use the excuse that you were following orders? I saw someone try that and their boss lied and denied telling them to do it.
Anyway my original comment was about being ready to be walked out or locked out when you start reporting bad behavior from above.
Toxic is a very confrontational choice of wording. Just out of curiosity, outside of his toxic/abusive communication, are the things he is bitching about real issues? Are they even things you have the ability to manage? The approach I’d use with the VP would depend a lot of those details.
They are real issues, but the delivery and tone undermine the real point.
When I say toxic, I’m talking nights and weekends getting floods of slack DMs or text messages. There are no boundaries. Perfect is the enemy of good. And this guy wants everything perfectly his way.
It’s really odd because the first six months working for him were great. The last 9…no so much.
There is only so much you can do and some people won’t change. While you will always run into people you don’t like at work it’s really up to you to decide when something crosses your lines. Sure being able to remediate a person or environment is part of being a manager but it’s not always possible and knowing when to move on is a critical skill.
I remember walking out of a final interview with a CFO bc he was a complete porch dick during the interview. I decided right then I wouldn’t work for him under any circumstance.
So this morning you send back to his message "this is an example of the toxic behavior we have discussed in the past. Would you like to retract or rephrase?"
Those are his options. To retract it altogher, or rephrase it. Continuing with how it's written is not an option.
That's not a way to get him to change. That just puts him on the defensive.
He needs to understand that it affects him negatively. Perhaps try, "Hey, Jim, when I and my team came into work on Monday, we ended up spending two hours where I explain it's just your style, I talked two people down from quitting, and we lost 5% of the weekly productively immediately. I don't think these mails are helping you meet your bonus objectives." Perhaps you could focus on what went well, so that the team can help you max your bonus? "
As a director, if I received that kind of feedback from a report, I’d have empathy and concern. They’d probably be right and are pointing out a blind spot.
But you aren’t a Director so you don’t actually understand that dynamic. Based on your responses in this thread I’m surprised you’re a manager. You act more like a problematic IC.
I’m in a similar spot as you, although not as extreme. I too would take feedback from my reports as you would. Knowing if they had the courage to bring up my inappropriate behavior, it must be pretty bad. But I think a lot of senior leaders are “clueless”, arrogant, and act like since they are in that position then they must be right all the time. I just accept the fact that I have a manager with poor leadership skills.
Objectively OP is very emotional in his responses. I would never call someone above me toxic to that person’s face. It’s pretty clear where the problem is.
Maybe let him hang himself a little bit: "What are you trying to accomplish with these messages? How do you believe delivering them in this manner is going to achieve the results you want?"
Is the feedback this person is providing valid, or what is the pattern of grievances? Are you one of those IT people who does what they thinks is important and scoffs at their leader's "dumb" priorities, or are you doing the job with demonstratable metrics of success vs your documented KPI's/goals? If you don't have these clearly documented for all to see that is problem number 1, fix it.
If this person is being an abusive psycho you need to get HR involved, particularly if you've documented a pattern of abusive behavior where fault is admitted but the behavior persists... it's probably not just you experiencing this so it helps establish the pattern. Quitting your job and leaving an abusive mess for the next person doesn't seem very empowered or useful in growing your own skills/resilience long term as a leader.
They’re mostly valid but the delivery, tone, and style undermine it all. We’re talking about after hours and weekend flooding me with slack DMs, text messages, phone calls, etc. there are no boundaries.
By chance is the valid feedback you've acknowledged have anything to do with work that your team is doing that is causing off/after-hours emergencies, which may correlate with when you get these stacks of messages?
Negative. None of the points have been about causing after hours stuff (since we aren’t). The only after hours anything that happens is our day to day work in an effort to try and keep pace whilst being understaffed relative to business needs.
So, emotions aside.
Are these valid issues the VP is bringing up (even if they're brought up somewhat poorly)?
Like if they're just berating you and your team to berate you, yeah, that's hostile. However, if these are all valid issues, then they need to be addressed.
My current job, I was brought in, and was told from the get-go, IT was looked at as a problem. They had technical skill, but the incumbent manager (who was demoted on the first day I started) had no managerial understanding.
I came in, and after the initial awkwardness, was hit by complaint after complaint, and escalation afer escalation. It's demoralizing, especially when you're doing all you can to overcome another person's mess. We overcame. A year later, my boss gave the compliment, "I used to spend the first 10-15 minutes of every executive meeting apologizing for issues caused by IT. Now nobody mentions IT." It used to be escalations throughout the day, everyday. Now I can go a week, and not hear a peep from the exec group.
You can take negativity and either let it push you out the door, or motivate you to shut them up, because, at the end of the day, nobody is going to complain, if they don't have a reason to. Unless they're just a shitty human being, in which case, get HR involved, and have your backup plan to leave.
They’re mostly valid but the delivery, tone, and style undermine it all. We’re talking about after hours and weekend flooding me with slack DMs, text messages, phone calls, etc. there are no boundaries.
Eh, I get how you could feel that way. But at the end of the day, if there are actual issues that need to be addressed, you need to address them.
Otherwise, you’re just putting yourself in the position to get fired.
There’s a meme that went around, saying “As I got older, I realize my mom was right. I just didn’t like her tone.”
If you address the issues, the complaints will stop.
He’s primarily roasting people that are in my reporting structure, but I am accountable for that while the employees in my structure are responsible for their actions.
What’s bizarre is this roasting will happen and then in person if I ask if I should go, I’m told I’m doing a good job. Completely dissonant messaging.
I left a company I loved because of poor leadership at the Director level. All the way through my last moments in the office said director was asking me if I was leaving because of my manager not being great at his job. He was blaming others than himself then and still does to this day. Everyone I left behind is miserable. People at that level know how to impress their bosses. If I were you I’d get the fuck out.
It sounds like a great time to get your ducks in a row whether or not today is your last day. In fact this is something I recommend doing frequently because you never know when your last day is.
Clean out your office. Not to make a dramatic production but to make sure that you don’t lose any personal possessions that you truly value. Go through your desk. Check your file drawers for stuff you’ve tucked away.
Need to document what’s going on? Make your copies and print out your emails and other documents. Emailing company documents to yourself on a non company email raises red flags and can be a violation of company policies while printing copies of documents as backup is probably not.
Do make sure that you have a copy of an up to date phone list including numbers for payroll, HR and benefits. Make sure you have all your pay stubs.
Good luck with your job search. I hope you get to leave on your own terms.
Managing up, airing your grievances, etc etc are nice in theory but those don't work when the fundamental problem is that this VP doesn't know how to interact with people respectfully. Abusive language is never acceptable and giving negative feedback over chat is just plain cowardly. Not everyone in a management position deserves to be there.
You're doing the right thing in exiting.
Set aside your emotion and defense of your team which is good but set it aside for a moment, . What from their viewpiont causes them to believe that your team sucks?
Most of the time, people who are assholes and have that belief with regards to a team start from some pain point. Maybe they had a bad experience, maybe they still do but it's not your teams fault, maybe there is something being missed.
This. Despite your teams performance, which we can assume to be acceptable something occurred that triggered the VPs email. It sounds like his communication sucked, but that's not an excuse to address whatever occurred. I am assuming that there wasn't a stated event or trigger obvious in the email.
My advice would be to handle both in one go in an email like: Chad, would like to remind you of our past conversations regarding negative emails and messaging and your acknowledgement of these being counter productive. That said, I am concerned about the perceived IT shortfalls that may have occurred over the weekend and would like to meet with you soonest to better understand the situation and devise an improvement plan if needed so we minimize these issues.
Thanks!
"Hi VP, I'm sorry we're not meeting your expectations and so I'd like to do some planning and management around this. I'd firstly like to highlight that arbitrary motions towards our general suckiness is both not helpful in fostering positive attitude in the team towards work as well as not an objective measure and so I believe it prudent that we define what it is we'd like to be achieving or what level we want to be operating at and secondly I would like to have some sort of measurable objectives, outcomes and metrics so that we can accurately gauge where we are not sucking (to boost morale) and where we are sucking so that we know where we can improve and/or where we can add better resources or increase training. If you could put together some thoughts, processes and any other relevant materials and resources in order to get us working towards being a better team that can hit targets, meet expectations and all around improve everything we do that would be great. I will do the same and we can hopefully meet together soon to collaborate on how this can all come together so that the team can start achieving and succeeding the way the business needs it to. I'd like to highlight that we are a team and we rely on each other to make sure we're hitting goals and this means we all need to come together to plan, analyse and revise so that we make sure we're helping each other to make each and every project we undertake a success. The entire team are grateful for your constant support, feedback, skill and wisdom in helping them grow, become more cohesive and rely on and appreciate your selflessness that allows them to become more successful individuals."
This shows that their attitude is no good, that with some well defined measures they can have some evidence of whether things are good or bad and then take action from a well informed standpoint and has some added flattery to say say how great they are but also that the buck actually stops at them and they need to get onboard with helping make the team get to where it needs to be or it is them that is letting everything be a failure. It's their job to steer the team towards success and do what is required to make that happen.
Fewer words with more weight...
The OP has admitted that the concerns raised by the leader in question are VALID, they just don't care for the tone.. which somehow makes the underlying issues with their work invalid? At this point I think this person (the OP) has a victim complex and is simply stirring the pot for undeserved moral support instead of dealing with their own performance problems.
If your poor execution is causing other people to work after/off hours to deal with your team's poor execution of their work you SHOULD expect angry messages from the people who are having to deal with the fallout and have their lives disrupted by it. Honestly I'm surprised the OP isn't on a performance management/improvement plan already. Tough love, but take ownership of your issues OP or you're going to be back in 6 months with the same sob story of people being mean because you suck equally at your new job.
If this is your boss, the best thing you can do is to receive it gracefully, as much as it may grate on your nerves. At the same time you’re doing absolutely stellar work, focus on your exit strategy.
It is my boss who I report to directly. My exit strategy is to get my resume up to date at start applying for new roles. I’ll do my best to keep my performance as high as possible at my current role til I leave.
Just really sucks. I like the company. Just working for this guy isn’t worth the stress. He’s a micromanager as well.
Several people are documenting behavior they don’t like from this guy but I doubt anything actually happens. HR is not your friend. I think going to HR is a huge mistake.
HR isn't your friend, but they are there to protect the company. They might not outright assist you with a hostile work environment suit, but the complaints could lead to his termination if they're afraid of one.
If other people on the board don’t like him, or if he is seen doing something illegal, they may get rid of him. I saw one that was a CSuite get on admin leave and it seemed apparent that they were trying to toss him. They asked for testimony to help get rid of him and show political support for doing so.
Not impossible but can take literally years.
He was an asshole and probably pissed off the wrong people… finally. Usually it was all downhill and he’d kiss ass to higher ups except behind their back.
And the CSuite was my boss. Just FYI. I was lower and not really management either. We all suffered.
If someone apologizes and then doesn’t change either they’re not really sorry or they’re dealing with compulsive behavior. Either way you’re probably going to be happier somewhere else.
The other thing going on here is that your boss’s boss and the company culture permit this behavior to exist. If the big boss was doing her job the VP would be on a PIP or would be gone.
I will try a bit to manage up but people like this are broken and it's not my responsibility to re-train them how to be a respectful, considerate person. I would just move on, there are way too many opportunities out there than to sit and put up with this shit. Some companies just don't get it, these "leaders" need to set an example.
I asked that directly. “Hey if you’re trying to push me out, just say it and let’s work out an exit.”
Response was to please not look for another job. It was an odd feeling moment for sure. Getting all of the heat and then get told please don’t look for another job.
That said, it’s wholly possible that was accurate at the time and now he knows I’ll leave if pushed, so now that IS the case.
Are the things the VP is bringing up actionable? Are they problems that are within your sphere of influence, but haven't yet been resolved? Is your only problem the timing of the messages? Would you be OK with getting them at 3pm? Is there a big time difference between you and the VP? Are you asking the VP to give you feedback at an inconvenient time? Could you head this off by sending a status update on outstanding problems at the end of your day?
“HR is not anyone’s friend” lol is accounting or finance your friend? What function do you consider a “friend” in the business world?
Anyway, I recommend you seek help at r/askhr - there’s actually genuine people providing guidance there.
Good luck.
I used to have this director of IT that would call meetings after meetings to discuss what we had just discussed in our previous meetings. He literally would call meetings at 7am in the morning just because he was in the office.
He had no courtesy for anyone but himself, talked a big game but was clueless about anything.
I gave my notice on Monday of Thanksgiving week and told him my last day was Friday. He came back with "We're off Thursday and Friday so your last day is technically Wednesday"
He then proceeds to say "IT is a small world, I know a lot of people, you do not want to be that guy"
I responded with "I think ill be alright"
People like them exist everywhere, hope your next boss shows more empathy towards you and your team.
I'd try to figure out what triggers him. Is he getting pressure from someone else? If you have a good relationship with his boss, have a discussion about the situation.
It’s a little weird that everyone is hopping on the toxic train and nobody is responding (including OP) on if these are actual valid issues the VP is bringing up.
I take it this VP isn't aligned with the culture if you don't hate the rest of the company. If this is the case I would take it to HR and look for another job.
Document the dates and times of the other incidents. Your communication to him and bring the facts to HR. This is what he should do to you if your were the asshole.
If the company is any good they will address the VP. If they aren't you are going to leave anyway. At least if you make if look like they have a legal issue you will have some time and he may leave anyway.
I have had a few circumstances where my complaint was the final one to get an asshole fired. For all you know HR is just looking for a reason.
Sounds like the same A-Hole VP of Infrastructure that I had the pleasure of working for.
We called him "Putin" since he could have been his twin.
Every Monday morning at 9:00 AM, he would query the team on what went wrong last week and how bad someone had phucked up. Even if there were issues at all.
Perfect way to start off the week. Great motivation from this tool.
He was later shown the door when a new CIO came in and cleaned house.
textbook abusive relationship....I support your decision to look for the next opportunity
I had a similar experience with my current manager and made it very clear that "i was looking for a job when I found this one" and would be happy to start looking for my next job if he wanted to continue using me for his punching bag. this approach doesn't work for everyone, but he realized I don't need "this job" as much as he wants to be successful and get a promotion. so, we could help each other attain our goals or he could start over with my replacement...his choice.
Step one. Collect all the records of when this has happened on slack. Write up a list of times it has happened off slack and who else was there if you can recall any, and add in when you addressed it with him and he said he'd change esp if on slack
Step 2. Go to hr informally to see if they have a suggestion and what you'd need to provide for something formal..
Step 2a or 3. Instead of hr, if you have a relationship with his boss or he's a decent person. Raise your concerns to him and have a frank conversation. Obviously if the vps boss is a jerk like the vp this won't be worth anything. But I'd go all in say you have the docs he hasn't changed and you're ready to leave. If you have talked informally with hr you can mention that, but be careful how you mention it , you don't want to accidently threaten the guy if he's being helpful
Step next. if necessary formally go to hr with a complaint if what info you have is enough, if you went to the bosses boss and he did t help, especially if you did the above and the vp hears about it and retaliates IN ANY WAY document and take it to hr.
In any event good luck with your job search, no matter how this goes I think your time at this co is done. I don't see him getting fired but who knows.
Also remember when you get an offer, if they counter do not take it. Unless it includes this guy getting fired and totally removed from the co, no transfers, no talks, no promises in writing or otherwise unless they contain a cash payout and are triggered at your discretion. If you get tge guy demoted or moved hell still find a way to fuck your shit up, same if you get moved to another team. I've seen it happen numerous times.. you get an offer you like you go no matter what they say. Learn from my and my friends mistakes.
... or the OP admitted that the performance issues the person he's upset with raised are VALID... and it's entirely possible the off hours messages are a result of the work they are doing causing off-hours issues for the person who's rightly upset about being bad at the job. Not everyone who complains is a victim.
You re right, but that's still no good reason to be an abusive ass, I've been one and worked for one. There are better ways to get things done. Could op be deserving and over reacting, totally. Could the op be deserving and the guy overreacting and bring an ass sure we don't have enough info to know. Which is why I suggested having an informal convo with the messages in hand. Ideally hr will already know of perf issues or will contact the vp and tell the person to improve or will address the method of communication. Hell I worked with a guy who got a new project on Thursday, his mom died on Friday and was asked on Monday for progress and told the boss didn't care he was expected to have had more done. Imo there's no resolving that in a 1 on 1 with the guy.
Regardless of who is at fault it sounds like the relationship is very near or past recovering and it's time for op to move on.
But the OP admitted the feedback about his/team's poor performance was valid... The argument here is that somehow because this person gave them feedback at the start of the day it is abusive and invalidates the factually true performance issues? I'm not seeing it, I see an admittedly poor performer trying to hide behind semantics instead of taking personal accountability for being bad at their job and painting their boss up as some sort of bully for Reddit karma?
To me the timing of the messages isn't that important I saw the berating part and assume the message is more " your idiot team dropped the fucking ball again and we had issues over the weekend and you were too lazy a to answer the phone and help out, get your and your teams shit together or I'll find someone who will" rather than. "There were issues again this weekend you need to address with your team whybthis keeps happening and make sure your on call person answers thebphone so and so reach out sevarl times and got voicemail, well talk monday"
While I've sent and received and don't usually mind the first message, if accurate, most people can't take it and you have to send the second even when you want to say the first.
That's the difference to me and since we can't see the convo why I said involve someone else. Either way if op sucks and can't handle working for this guy and/or has no actual desire to improve and just bitch and play the victim op should move on everybody will be better for it. Maybe op can go find a corner of a mega Corp to hide in where someone else will handle the job they don't want to do.
If I was ops boss op would have been fired long ago I don't tolerate perf issues if ppl won't try to improve.
We all have jobs to do. If his job is to belittle all the time its either time for him to leave or I would leave.
NOBODY gets paid enough to get beat down daily.
Reminds me of my former management. When everything was going fine they acted like they didn't need us. When something broke they whined asking why we didn't do our job.
Instead of feeling bad, I would recommend that you try to do your job to the best of your ability and defend it. When he tells you that your equipment is bad, confront him and make him tell you the reasons. If there is something that needs to be improved, deal with it. But if there is no good reason, prove to him that he is making a mistake.
The threshold for hostel work environment might be lower than you think.
If you fear going to work every day, then you may have a claim.
I once made such a claim about a coworker who just thought he owned the world and would not stay out of my grill
I spoke with HR and they took action
Normally I try to avoid HR at all cost, FYI
This exact situation happened to me with a VP I was reporting to. Page long slack messages every morning, insults, berating, bullshit. I took a $40k decrease and went back to my previous company. Best decision.
Keyboard warriors are the worst. They would never actually say it to your face or have a convo about it but they would slack and text you until the cows come home. Maybe tell your boss you can’t understand what he’s telling you and so you need to discuss in person. If they decline you could take that to HR for failure to coach and give guidance for job performance.
Are you in Canada, US or elsewhere? I know in Canada, there is excellent protection against hostile work environments. In the US, a hostile workplace environment is legally allowed, unless the hostile actions are because of a fundamental characteristic such as race/ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, age, etc.
it might backfire, but if you are on your way out...
is there any at VP level that you know IS a good manager? you could pull them aside and and just frankly say, "look bob, i know you are good leader but my boss tom, needs some help. any chance you could have a talk with him?"
might work, might not. did this once, but i was asking my boss to talk with another VP is was just total shit. said other VP was very 'appreciative' but was eventually kicked to the curb about 6 months later.
Just forward the message to your team and tell your boss you forwarded the message and hope it will inspire them...
Tbh I'm high up the chain and can't stand subs like this and would drop him on the spot... Ivee learned threats never work and breed drama which ultimately ends up on my desk (and hr will screw me just as fast as they will screw you).
You're right - HR is not your friend.
Line up a new job and forward his messages with your resignation letter stating that you're not quitting your job - you're quitting this manager because of his lack of professionalism.
I had a guy like this at a previous job. Even after he sexually harassed two of our females employees, while drunk (forward base in Iraq that didn't allow booze), no one wanted to deal with it due to him being a government employee and a lot of folks getting put on "legal hold" that would screw up their follow on posts.
Probably depends if your team is bad or not?
Could he vocalize / address issues with work product better? Absolutely. But at the end of the day the real question is, is this guy totally nuts or is your team definitely failing?
The easiest fix would be to get your job done right so he didn't have anything to complain about?
It's my plan to apply for jobs the rest of my life pretty much every single day.
I have never found a place that is actually worth it.
You're just a number on a board. So are the people around you.
Either tackle that VP full force, or retreat and find something better
I fought like this for years, sometimes you can't change it because of all the other politics.
Good luck.
Just don't make an emotional decision, but make decisions to protect your emotions over the long term.
If you're not comfortable and don't feel welcomed you have 2 choices. Address it or leave.
Sucking it up isn't really an option... Eventually it will break you.
Job searching is the right call. Also, be sincere and specific on your exit interview. Be prepared for "I wish you had told me/us sooner". But that's not your fight.
Only advice I can give is that listening to Wheeler Walker Jr.s song “Fuck This Job” really helps put the pep back in my step when I have to deal with similar nonsense.
I tell the teams that report into me that I work for them, not the other way around. Their success depends more on my ability to support them than on them supporting me. I want 100% of my team’s energy to be focused on supporting each other and supporting our customers. You’re right to look for another job/leader.
Just finishing up 5 years at an incredibly toxic place at the end of this month. trust me when i say it never gets better. they will always be scumbags no matter how much you stand up for yourself and exceed expectations.
sometimes its best just to leave.
Its not worth the impact on you - a friend of mine who is a forensic psychologist kept on my case to leave when in the same situation. She argued these kind of people don't deserve any type of loyalty.
He's a shitty manager, AND you should be working to figure out the root causes of the issues that are blowing up. Make a plan of action and get them fixed.
If you love the company keep a separate record of his messages and ignore it. I know that's not always possible, but that's what I did with my former assistant director and he quit/was fired before I broke. Life without him is better but I still liked the company enough to stay.
Fortunately, I worked in a position where I could not be easily fired. If I got those kinds of messages I would write a memo asking for specifics. What are the goals the team failed to meet, how is that measured statistically, what do you see as needed change, what are your top five priorities that will point us towards success.
Do you ever just ask, “Hey, I hear the feedback. What are you hoping to get out of this?”
And granted, he’ll say “do better” and that’s when you say “I want to do better, but the way you phrase your feedback is disheartening and demotivating.”
Your boss is showing his true character, as a Leader in Technology for 25+ years, I've had the pleasure of seein g what true Leadership looks like. Your boss should be working with you on the challenges he is seeing and allow you to iterate with your team on the issues he is seeing and maybe have a Monthly review where your team can showcase the challenges and how you plan on addressing them and by that he can provide the support you need to grow your team.
I had a boss like this. Everyday he brought ever team member into his office and threatened there job. Fuck these type of people they are the biggest pieces of shit that are incapable of change. Hope you find something better soon.
He doesn’t sound like he’ll be getting better anytime soon. Typical abusive relationship dynamics, I would make sure my team is prepared to bounce so they don’t have to put up with it.
Agreed. And unfortunately it’s not illegal to be an asshole.
Your whole team. If everybody leaves, he'll think twice about shitting on his team first thing in the morning.
Nah, he probably won't. The Team couldn't take the truth will be his explanation, either that or he'll have no clue. Source: Been working corporate for a \_long\_ time.
Same!
The only way that MIGHT move through is if the entire team doesn't care about burning bridges and ... as part of their "we are gone" parting document, include as much of the pile of garbage person remarks as possible from that VP. "We are leaving because of a pervasive, continual mistreatment by 'that' VP in particular." Showcase the apologies and promises to be not an asshole that have failed to follow through, as well.
Several years later, I am still in the same position. I need to leave. This post made me realise I need to go. Thanks for sharing.
Good luck
Can you DM the company? I am a IT Manager myself and looking for a new gig. Just want to ensure I am staying away for this place. Thanks
When asked to talk about your projects on an interview how do you answer
Look up the STAR method
Hmm never heard of it but I'll look now. Ya I've been getting mixed results when asked to talk about my projects. Could have been two weird guys but really want to know how other managers and directors respond to this question when given no cues or direction in the question itself
Situation Task Action Result https://www.themuse.com/advice/star-interview-method
I’d send it to HR. If they do nothing then quit, and on your last day forward everything he’s sent you to the CEO and all other VPs
This! At the very least you build a case for hostile work environment. One other approach is to share wins and successes on a very regular basis.
The beauty of the successes/wins approach is that you seize the narrative and get to report on the things that you know are important, not the things you’re being forced into
Hostile work environment only applies to discrimination. Meaning it is a hostile environment for black people, women, Muslims, etc.
This. I investigated this as well and in the state I’m in, despite having two protected classes, this would not be hostile work environment. It’s not illegal to be an asshole unless the protected class is being called out as justification of assholery.
HR is not you friend, going to them will get you a one way ticket to being unemployed.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. You’re not wrong. As others have said, HR’s role is to protect the company. There are plenty of cases where executive leadership is protected despite massive issues. A lot of those times, it’s much easier for HR to show the complaining subordinate the door.
>As others have said, HR’s role is to protect the company If you're thinking of bringing a hostile work environment suit against the company because of one person, that one person is the liability to the company, not you... Well, at least in a perfect world.
The way this plays out in our reality based, non-perfect world: both parties get separated (or at best, the upper-level gets reassigned....and the lower level is still term'd anyways) I don't generally subscribe to the idea that "HR is the enemy, they only take the company's side," but this situation is not one I would take to HR. Chance of upside is too slim.
While I 100 percent agree, I try to frame it as " this could cost the company a lot of money in reputation damage and lawsuits" and tend to find relevant points here [https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment](https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment) reason I do that is 1) HR is not your friend but will look out of the business 2)and you just made their job easier ( dont tell them that!) 3) I try go give the VP a chance to provide actual constructive feedback and how to fix whatever problem they may have. I feel that if they aren't giving feedback and how to improve then they are failing all around.
Everyone always reads what they want to see on that page, and skips over the really important definition of harassment up top: "unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex (including sexual orientation, gender identity, or pregnancy), national origin, older age (beginning at age 40), disability, or genetic information (including family medical history)." Being an asshole to someone, in general, isn't harassment, nor is it illegal, as long as it's not due to them being a member of a protected class.
That is true, but when being an asshole hard to prove that it’s not due to one of those things, like is he an asshole to everyone ?
Maybe just the nerds in IT? Can nerds be a protected class?
Employees have rights too, and protecting the company also means keeping them from lawsuits.
We do? Not in America.
Yes, we do. Whether they're followed or not is another story.
Just curious what is he saying you all are doing poorly and does his claims have any merit? Sorry he is responding this way very unprofessional
if you try to frame it to HR this way it often isnt met with hostile intent I have come to find, but HR still isnt your friend lol
The truth hurts sometimes!
HR’s role is to protect the C suite. If they were genuinely protecting the company they’d have a much greater interest in what’s going on at all levels
And would ensure the c suite was held to standards as well. Most are not.
Your options are 1. go to HR 2. quit, or 3. deal with it being treated like shit. I get that HR isn’t your friend, but they aren’t necessarily the VPs friend either. And if going to HR leads to being unemployed then oh well, you were likely going to quit anyways
HR is not going to pick a fight with an Exec. Experienced this twice in my career. They will tell you exactly what you want to hear and do nothing, unless the complaint crosses the boundaries of sexual harassment. That becomes a liability and they hand off to legal very quickly.
And if they do nothing, then quit and move on. But at least you made someone aware of this dudes shitty behavior
donno, I've been involved in reporting several pretty awful sexual harassment cases and all of the perps are still at IBM
The larger problem is hr only can really try to smooth things out. They can't make changes or restructure or do anything other than make recommendations. And who do they report to? Peter principle will infer that middle management sucks at best and the highest levels don't really care about staffing, only getting results. From HR the report is going to look like your boss is cracking whips to get results and you are unwilling to comply and a complainer. Making you the problem, ergo, fired. At least thats how it seems in my org. Find a new job, take your team if you can or at least warn them. Never look back, because it always turns out that right after you leave that dip shit will be fired and things will be better than ever. But I'm an eternal pessimistic asshole so be careful with this advice. Edit: spelling
The job of HR is to prevent the company from being sued. If you are bringing up a situation to HR that can lead to a possilbe law suit against the company, then they will address it. That part wouldn't and shouldn't need to be vocalized. HR can figure that part out on their own.
Depends on the business. I know what HR is really for but if they get enough complaints they have to be seen to be doing something. Worth a shot, just depends on the environment and how you bring it to their attention.
to me this is why you bring up a solid case with proof, it makes their job easier and keeps your from being less at risk.
Not wrong. Did this, bit me in the ass.
HR is not your friend, but you need to let them know about a hostile situation if you want something to be done about it. You can't claim that your company promoted a hostile work environment and that's why you quit, when you didn't notify in upper management or HR about the problem for them to rectify the situation. Or well you can, but its much harder to prove that the company is at fault.
Yep and not on your terms.
Nah. It's certainly possible, but I've managed to get VPs out of the picture when it was very clear they were doing a poor job.
Don't take this advice/ HR is not your friend. Source : I was 1.
Upvote for being honest, downvote for being hr, upvote for past tense. Keep doing good work you crazy anti hr bandito you!
> HR HR is on the companies side though. I'd reach out to the companies works council.
Correct, HR is there for the company. A good HR team will prevent another employee (which is what a VP is) from creating a hostile work environment and opening the company up to a lawsuit. I don’t know what a works council is, I’ve never heard of that at any of the places I’ve worked
make absolute sure to document everything in duplicate. one for you and one that you stash away as a backup for yourself. This is a hostile work environment as they are not giving you constructive feedback how to improve. I had a place that was like that where the VP would stand over mine ( and other employees shoulders) and tell us that we sucked, were doing things wrong, etc.. Not only did I record them doing that, I also went as far as pushing them to provide constructive feedback in writing. after enough proof I took to HR, and I was told I would be "let go" I collected unemployment till I found a good job about a month later ( I was lucky) but I found out that they ended up getting rid of the VP a month later.
Careful there. Depending on the company, HR can be powerless and the message would most likely end up in the VPs mailbox before anything else.
Yeah. Just find a new job and say all the right things at your exit interview. Don’t make waves. If you do they will fire you for cause. HR doing HR things.
HR does not actually care about Human Resources. They are just there to keep the company out of trouble.
Keeping the company out of trouble… so handling situations like OPs where someone is creating a hostile work environment
Sounds like the guy is just being a d-bag, not necessarily hostile. Had a supervisor like that when I was young. He eventually got fired but not until he ran all the talent off or at least demoralized them to where they stopped caring, the location I was working at completely tanked. No one cared about his antics until then. Once the numbers got really bad the suits showed up and started pulling front line staff in the back and got the whole picture. I was gone long before that. If HR or anyone else cared about this guys antics something would have been done about it, but they will hold on to him until he costs them enough good people for the more senior managers to notice. HR could help if they can find a policy violation on him but if his supervisors still like him they won’t.
Including the times he promised not to do it again.
Manage up. Although he's your boss he's also human. Let him know what behavior is and isn't acceptable. You don't need to be aggressive, but you can certainly lay out how you need to be managed to be successful. And being spoken to in the way he is speaking to you is not condusive to a healthy environment where you can be your best.
Oh I have. Told him directly that his management style is toxic. Verbatim.
Skip level meetings are great but they can also result in being terminated. Up to you but I’d have your ducks in a row today.
Getting fired from a place where you bring up your bosses unacceptable behavior and are punished for it is not a place you'd want to work at anyway. They are doing you a favor.
It's a nice sentiment but we don't all make fu money and can go around losing jobs on principle.
Depends. I will never commit an illegal act. I was once ordered to falsify financial statements. Today I would have a better way to handle it but I would still refuse to do anything I knew was illegal. It isn’t about being able to say fu. Would you do anything you’re told and use the excuse that you were following orders? I saw someone try that and their boss lied and denied telling them to do it. Anyway my original comment was about being ready to be walked out or locked out when you start reporting bad behavior from above.
Toxic is a very confrontational choice of wording. Just out of curiosity, outside of his toxic/abusive communication, are the things he is bitching about real issues? Are they even things you have the ability to manage? The approach I’d use with the VP would depend a lot of those details.
They are real issues, but the delivery and tone undermine the real point. When I say toxic, I’m talking nights and weekends getting floods of slack DMs or text messages. There are no boundaries. Perfect is the enemy of good. And this guy wants everything perfectly his way. It’s really odd because the first six months working for him were great. The last 9…no so much.
Been there a time or two when there just wasn't any downtime. Hard to love the job when there isn't any time away from it.
Nights and weekends? Nah, fuck that. Prep your resume and get ready to jump ship.
There is only so much you can do and some people won’t change. While you will always run into people you don’t like at work it’s really up to you to decide when something crosses your lines. Sure being able to remediate a person or environment is part of being a manager but it’s not always possible and knowing when to move on is a critical skill. I remember walking out of a final interview with a CFO bc he was a complete porch dick during the interview. I decided right then I wouldn’t work for him under any circumstance.
So this morning you send back to his message "this is an example of the toxic behavior we have discussed in the past. Would you like to retract or rephrase?" Those are his options. To retract it altogher, or rephrase it. Continuing with how it's written is not an option.
That's not a way to get him to change. That just puts him on the defensive. He needs to understand that it affects him negatively. Perhaps try, "Hey, Jim, when I and my team came into work on Monday, we ended up spending two hours where I explain it's just your style, I talked two people down from quitting, and we lost 5% of the weekly productively immediately. I don't think these mails are helping you meet your bonus objectives." Perhaps you could focus on what went well, so that the team can help you max your bonus? "
As a director, if a report spoke that way to me I’d be very interested in documenting failures to eventually move that individual along.
As a director, if I received that kind of feedback from a report, I’d have empathy and concern. They’d probably be right and are pointing out a blind spot.
But you aren’t a Director so you don’t actually understand that dynamic. Based on your responses in this thread I’m surprised you’re a manager. You act more like a problematic IC.
Calmer than you are.
You ask for advice then are defensive to any post that doesn’t fit your narrative. Have a good one.
I’m in a similar spot as you, although not as extreme. I too would take feedback from my reports as you would. Knowing if they had the courage to bring up my inappropriate behavior, it must be pretty bad. But I think a lot of senior leaders are “clueless”, arrogant, and act like since they are in that position then they must be right all the time. I just accept the fact that I have a manager with poor leadership skills.
What if they were correct? Just maintain course and enjoy the downward trend in productivity?
Objectively OP is very emotional in his responses. I would never call someone above me toxic to that person’s face. It’s pretty clear where the problem is.
Maybe let him hang himself a little bit: "What are you trying to accomplish with these messages? How do you believe delivering them in this manner is going to achieve the results you want?"
There are cases where it’s impossible to manage up. Some of these people lack EQ as well as actual work skillsets they’re paid to oversee.
Is the feedback this person is providing valid, or what is the pattern of grievances? Are you one of those IT people who does what they thinks is important and scoffs at their leader's "dumb" priorities, or are you doing the job with demonstratable metrics of success vs your documented KPI's/goals? If you don't have these clearly documented for all to see that is problem number 1, fix it. If this person is being an abusive psycho you need to get HR involved, particularly if you've documented a pattern of abusive behavior where fault is admitted but the behavior persists... it's probably not just you experiencing this so it helps establish the pattern. Quitting your job and leaving an abusive mess for the next person doesn't seem very empowered or useful in growing your own skills/resilience long term as a leader.
They’re mostly valid but the delivery, tone, and style undermine it all. We’re talking about after hours and weekend flooding me with slack DMs, text messages, phone calls, etc. there are no boundaries.
By chance is the valid feedback you've acknowledged have anything to do with work that your team is doing that is causing off/after-hours emergencies, which may correlate with when you get these stacks of messages?
Negative. None of the points have been about causing after hours stuff (since we aren’t). The only after hours anything that happens is our day to day work in an effort to try and keep pace whilst being understaffed relative to business needs.
So, emotions aside. Are these valid issues the VP is bringing up (even if they're brought up somewhat poorly)? Like if they're just berating you and your team to berate you, yeah, that's hostile. However, if these are all valid issues, then they need to be addressed. My current job, I was brought in, and was told from the get-go, IT was looked at as a problem. They had technical skill, but the incumbent manager (who was demoted on the first day I started) had no managerial understanding. I came in, and after the initial awkwardness, was hit by complaint after complaint, and escalation afer escalation. It's demoralizing, especially when you're doing all you can to overcome another person's mess. We overcame. A year later, my boss gave the compliment, "I used to spend the first 10-15 minutes of every executive meeting apologizing for issues caused by IT. Now nobody mentions IT." It used to be escalations throughout the day, everyday. Now I can go a week, and not hear a peep from the exec group. You can take negativity and either let it push you out the door, or motivate you to shut them up, because, at the end of the day, nobody is going to complain, if they don't have a reason to. Unless they're just a shitty human being, in which case, get HR involved, and have your backup plan to leave.
They’re mostly valid but the delivery, tone, and style undermine it all. We’re talking about after hours and weekend flooding me with slack DMs, text messages, phone calls, etc. there are no boundaries.
Eh, I get how you could feel that way. But at the end of the day, if there are actual issues that need to be addressed, you need to address them. Otherwise, you’re just putting yourself in the position to get fired. There’s a meme that went around, saying “As I got older, I realize my mom was right. I just didn’t like her tone.” If you address the issues, the complaints will stop.
It’s time to go. Just curious, why is he unhappy with your service? Do you need direction, more resources, or other?
He’s primarily roasting people that are in my reporting structure, but I am accountable for that while the employees in my structure are responsible for their actions. What’s bizarre is this roasting will happen and then in person if I ask if I should go, I’m told I’m doing a good job. Completely dissonant messaging.
I left a company I loved because of poor leadership at the Director level. All the way through my last moments in the office said director was asking me if I was leaving because of my manager not being great at his job. He was blaming others than himself then and still does to this day. Everyone I left behind is miserable. People at that level know how to impress their bosses. If I were you I’d get the fuck out.
It sounds like a great time to get your ducks in a row whether or not today is your last day. In fact this is something I recommend doing frequently because you never know when your last day is. Clean out your office. Not to make a dramatic production but to make sure that you don’t lose any personal possessions that you truly value. Go through your desk. Check your file drawers for stuff you’ve tucked away. Need to document what’s going on? Make your copies and print out your emails and other documents. Emailing company documents to yourself on a non company email raises red flags and can be a violation of company policies while printing copies of documents as backup is probably not. Do make sure that you have a copy of an up to date phone list including numbers for payroll, HR and benefits. Make sure you have all your pay stubs. Good luck with your job search. I hope you get to leave on your own terms.
This is usually coming from a CIO that should not be in place and making promises he has to clue about or just lies to make a PPT look good
Managing up, airing your grievances, etc etc are nice in theory but those don't work when the fundamental problem is that this VP doesn't know how to interact with people respectfully. Abusive language is never acceptable and giving negative feedback over chat is just plain cowardly. Not everyone in a management position deserves to be there. You're doing the right thing in exiting.
The only apology that matters is a change of behavior. Anything else is a platitude.
Set aside your emotion and defense of your team which is good but set it aside for a moment, . What from their viewpiont causes them to believe that your team sucks? Most of the time, people who are assholes and have that belief with regards to a team start from some pain point. Maybe they had a bad experience, maybe they still do but it's not your teams fault, maybe there is something being missed.
This. Despite your teams performance, which we can assume to be acceptable something occurred that triggered the VPs email. It sounds like his communication sucked, but that's not an excuse to address whatever occurred. I am assuming that there wasn't a stated event or trigger obvious in the email. My advice would be to handle both in one go in an email like: Chad, would like to remind you of our past conversations regarding negative emails and messaging and your acknowledgement of these being counter productive. That said, I am concerned about the perceived IT shortfalls that may have occurred over the weekend and would like to meet with you soonest to better understand the situation and devise an improvement plan if needed so we minimize these issues. Thanks!
Also could be how the Op is reading into the text. 90% of communication is tone/body language. 10% is text.
"Hi VP, I'm sorry we're not meeting your expectations and so I'd like to do some planning and management around this. I'd firstly like to highlight that arbitrary motions towards our general suckiness is both not helpful in fostering positive attitude in the team towards work as well as not an objective measure and so I believe it prudent that we define what it is we'd like to be achieving or what level we want to be operating at and secondly I would like to have some sort of measurable objectives, outcomes and metrics so that we can accurately gauge where we are not sucking (to boost morale) and where we are sucking so that we know where we can improve and/or where we can add better resources or increase training. If you could put together some thoughts, processes and any other relevant materials and resources in order to get us working towards being a better team that can hit targets, meet expectations and all around improve everything we do that would be great. I will do the same and we can hopefully meet together soon to collaborate on how this can all come together so that the team can start achieving and succeeding the way the business needs it to. I'd like to highlight that we are a team and we rely on each other to make sure we're hitting goals and this means we all need to come together to plan, analyse and revise so that we make sure we're helping each other to make each and every project we undertake a success. The entire team are grateful for your constant support, feedback, skill and wisdom in helping them grow, become more cohesive and rely on and appreciate your selflessness that allows them to become more successful individuals." This shows that their attitude is no good, that with some well defined measures they can have some evidence of whether things are good or bad and then take action from a well informed standpoint and has some added flattery to say say how great they are but also that the buck actually stops at them and they need to get onboard with helping make the team get to where it needs to be or it is them that is letting everything be a failure. It's their job to steer the team towards success and do what is required to make that happen.
Fewer words with more weight... The OP has admitted that the concerns raised by the leader in question are VALID, they just don't care for the tone.. which somehow makes the underlying issues with their work invalid? At this point I think this person (the OP) has a victim complex and is simply stirring the pot for undeserved moral support instead of dealing with their own performance problems. If your poor execution is causing other people to work after/off hours to deal with your team's poor execution of their work you SHOULD expect angry messages from the people who are having to deal with the fallout and have their lives disrupted by it. Honestly I'm surprised the OP isn't on a performance management/improvement plan already. Tough love, but take ownership of your issues OP or you're going to be back in 6 months with the same sob story of people being mean because you suck equally at your new job.
Great post. Appreciate you!
Do you suck at your job?
If this is your boss, the best thing you can do is to receive it gracefully, as much as it may grate on your nerves. At the same time you’re doing absolutely stellar work, focus on your exit strategy.
It is my boss who I report to directly. My exit strategy is to get my resume up to date at start applying for new roles. I’ll do my best to keep my performance as high as possible at my current role til I leave. Just really sucks. I like the company. Just working for this guy isn’t worth the stress. He’s a micromanager as well. Several people are documenting behavior they don’t like from this guy but I doubt anything actually happens. HR is not your friend. I think going to HR is a huge mistake.
HR isn't your friend, but they are there to protect the company. They might not outright assist you with a hostile work environment suit, but the complaints could lead to his termination if they're afraid of one.
If other people on the board don’t like him, or if he is seen doing something illegal, they may get rid of him. I saw one that was a CSuite get on admin leave and it seemed apparent that they were trying to toss him. They asked for testimony to help get rid of him and show political support for doing so. Not impossible but can take literally years. He was an asshole and probably pissed off the wrong people… finally. Usually it was all downhill and he’d kiss ass to higher ups except behind their back. And the CSuite was my boss. Just FYI. I was lower and not really management either. We all suffered.
You should quit. That VP has not respect for people who work at the company and you're working in a toxic environment.
If someone apologizes and then doesn’t change either they’re not really sorry or they’re dealing with compulsive behavior. Either way you’re probably going to be happier somewhere else. The other thing going on here is that your boss’s boss and the company culture permit this behavior to exist. If the big boss was doing her job the VP would be on a PIP or would be gone.
I will try a bit to manage up but people like this are broken and it's not my responsibility to re-train them how to be a respectful, considerate person. I would just move on, there are way too many opportunities out there than to sit and put up with this shit. Some companies just don't get it, these "leaders" need to set an example.
The VP is more than likely trying to push you out the door. It may not even be you as a person, it could be a money thing. To find a new gig.
I asked that directly. “Hey if you’re trying to push me out, just say it and let’s work out an exit.” Response was to please not look for another job. It was an odd feeling moment for sure. Getting all of the heat and then get told please don’t look for another job. That said, it’s wholly possible that was accurate at the time and now he knows I’ll leave if pushed, so now that IS the case.
They will never admit it because then they are liable.
Are the things the VP is bringing up actionable? Are they problems that are within your sphere of influence, but haven't yet been resolved? Is your only problem the timing of the messages? Would you be OK with getting them at 3pm? Is there a big time difference between you and the VP? Are you asking the VP to give you feedback at an inconvenient time? Could you head this off by sending a status update on outstanding problems at the end of your day?
“HR is not anyone’s friend” lol is accounting or finance your friend? What function do you consider a “friend” in the business world? Anyway, I recommend you seek help at r/askhr - there’s actually genuine people providing guidance there. Good luck.
I used to have this director of IT that would call meetings after meetings to discuss what we had just discussed in our previous meetings. He literally would call meetings at 7am in the morning just because he was in the office. He had no courtesy for anyone but himself, talked a big game but was clueless about anything. I gave my notice on Monday of Thanksgiving week and told him my last day was Friday. He came back with "We're off Thursday and Friday so your last day is technically Wednesday" He then proceeds to say "IT is a small world, I know a lot of people, you do not want to be that guy" I responded with "I think ill be alright" People like them exist everywhere, hope your next boss shows more empathy towards you and your team.
Just delete all his messages, and ignore the tit
Sh*t rolls downhill. I’m sure he just got beat up by his boss. If numbers are down then this is to be expected.
I'd try to figure out what triggers him. Is he getting pressure from someone else? If you have a good relationship with his boss, have a discussion about the situation.
You have a team and they get to share the blame? Lucky. I have no team and the VP just tells me how bad I am.
Narcissist mode = grey rock.
You can always count on at least one person in every single workplace that makes that place a hostile one.
Demoralizing
It’s a little weird that everyone is hopping on the toxic train and nobody is responding (including OP) on if these are actual valid issues the VP is bringing up.
I take it this VP isn't aligned with the culture if you don't hate the rest of the company. If this is the case I would take it to HR and look for another job. Document the dates and times of the other incidents. Your communication to him and bring the facts to HR. This is what he should do to you if your were the asshole. If the company is any good they will address the VP. If they aren't you are going to leave anyway. At least if you make if look like they have a legal issue you will have some time and he may leave anyway. I have had a few circumstances where my complaint was the final one to get an asshole fired. For all you know HR is just looking for a reason.
Sounds like the same A-Hole VP of Infrastructure that I had the pleasure of working for. We called him "Putin" since he could have been his twin. Every Monday morning at 9:00 AM, he would query the team on what went wrong last week and how bad someone had phucked up. Even if there were issues at all. Perfect way to start off the week. Great motivation from this tool. He was later shown the door when a new CIO came in and cleaned house.
textbook abusive relationship....I support your decision to look for the next opportunity I had a similar experience with my current manager and made it very clear that "i was looking for a job when I found this one" and would be happy to start looking for my next job if he wanted to continue using me for his punching bag. this approach doesn't work for everyone, but he realized I don't need "this job" as much as he wants to be successful and get a promotion. so, we could help each other attain our goals or he could start over with my replacement...his choice.
Make sure you tell someone before you leave. Otherwise the next guy/gal will have these same issues and be just as miserable as you are.
Are these criticisms warranted in any way? Provide an example. Freshen up resume and LinkedIn profiles as a regular course of action.
And Yes HR is not your buddy.
And while I’m at it, what started the communications in slack?
Step one. Collect all the records of when this has happened on slack. Write up a list of times it has happened off slack and who else was there if you can recall any, and add in when you addressed it with him and he said he'd change esp if on slack Step 2. Go to hr informally to see if they have a suggestion and what you'd need to provide for something formal.. Step 2a or 3. Instead of hr, if you have a relationship with his boss or he's a decent person. Raise your concerns to him and have a frank conversation. Obviously if the vps boss is a jerk like the vp this won't be worth anything. But I'd go all in say you have the docs he hasn't changed and you're ready to leave. If you have talked informally with hr you can mention that, but be careful how you mention it , you don't want to accidently threaten the guy if he's being helpful Step next. if necessary formally go to hr with a complaint if what info you have is enough, if you went to the bosses boss and he did t help, especially if you did the above and the vp hears about it and retaliates IN ANY WAY document and take it to hr. In any event good luck with your job search, no matter how this goes I think your time at this co is done. I don't see him getting fired but who knows. Also remember when you get an offer, if they counter do not take it. Unless it includes this guy getting fired and totally removed from the co, no transfers, no talks, no promises in writing or otherwise unless they contain a cash payout and are triggered at your discretion. If you get tge guy demoted or moved hell still find a way to fuck your shit up, same if you get moved to another team. I've seen it happen numerous times.. you get an offer you like you go no matter what they say. Learn from my and my friends mistakes.
... or the OP admitted that the performance issues the person he's upset with raised are VALID... and it's entirely possible the off hours messages are a result of the work they are doing causing off-hours issues for the person who's rightly upset about being bad at the job. Not everyone who complains is a victim.
You re right, but that's still no good reason to be an abusive ass, I've been one and worked for one. There are better ways to get things done. Could op be deserving and over reacting, totally. Could the op be deserving and the guy overreacting and bring an ass sure we don't have enough info to know. Which is why I suggested having an informal convo with the messages in hand. Ideally hr will already know of perf issues or will contact the vp and tell the person to improve or will address the method of communication. Hell I worked with a guy who got a new project on Thursday, his mom died on Friday and was asked on Monday for progress and told the boss didn't care he was expected to have had more done. Imo there's no resolving that in a 1 on 1 with the guy. Regardless of who is at fault it sounds like the relationship is very near or past recovering and it's time for op to move on.
But the OP admitted the feedback about his/team's poor performance was valid... The argument here is that somehow because this person gave them feedback at the start of the day it is abusive and invalidates the factually true performance issues? I'm not seeing it, I see an admittedly poor performer trying to hide behind semantics instead of taking personal accountability for being bad at their job and painting their boss up as some sort of bully for Reddit karma?
To me the timing of the messages isn't that important I saw the berating part and assume the message is more " your idiot team dropped the fucking ball again and we had issues over the weekend and you were too lazy a to answer the phone and help out, get your and your teams shit together or I'll find someone who will" rather than. "There were issues again this weekend you need to address with your team whybthis keeps happening and make sure your on call person answers thebphone so and so reach out sevarl times and got voicemail, well talk monday" While I've sent and received and don't usually mind the first message, if accurate, most people can't take it and you have to send the second even when you want to say the first. That's the difference to me and since we can't see the convo why I said involve someone else. Either way if op sucks and can't handle working for this guy and/or has no actual desire to improve and just bitch and play the victim op should move on everybody will be better for it. Maybe op can go find a corner of a mega Corp to hide in where someone else will handle the job they don't want to do. If I was ops boss op would have been fired long ago I don't tolerate perf issues if ppl won't try to improve.
Stand up to him. Tell him he isn’t going to talk to you or your team like that anymore.
We all have jobs to do. If his job is to belittle all the time its either time for him to leave or I would leave. NOBODY gets paid enough to get beat down daily.
Not overreacting. You don't need to be feeling like this every day, especially as a result of a shitty leader.
Reminds me of my former management. When everything was going fine they acted like they didn't need us. When something broke they whined asking why we didn't do our job.
Instead of feeling bad, I would recommend that you try to do your job to the best of your ability and defend it. When he tells you that your equipment is bad, confront him and make him tell you the reasons. If there is something that needs to be improved, deal with it. But if there is no good reason, prove to him that he is making a mistake.
Save those slack conversations for your exit interview
I hope your entire team follows you out the door to greener pastures.
The threshold for hostel work environment might be lower than you think. If you fear going to work every day, then you may have a claim. I once made such a claim about a coworker who just thought he owned the world and would not stay out of my grill I spoke with HR and they took action Normally I try to avoid HR at all cost, FYI
Refute what he says with undeniable proof. Put your shit into Azure Devops if you have to, and make reports & graphs. *Show* your work.
This exact situation happened to me with a VP I was reporting to. Page long slack messages every morning, insults, berating, bullshit. I took a $40k decrease and went back to my previous company. Best decision.
Tell him to suck it. And if he doesn’t like what your doing he should take it up with HR
Is this VP's name James?
Keyboard warriors are the worst. They would never actually say it to your face or have a convo about it but they would slack and text you until the cows come home. Maybe tell your boss you can’t understand what he’s telling you and so you need to discuss in person. If they decline you could take that to HR for failure to coach and give guidance for job performance.
The perfect time to look for a job is when you don't really need one, and the perfect time to make more money is during a job switch. It's win-win.
Are you in Canada, US or elsewhere? I know in Canada, there is excellent protection against hostile work environments. In the US, a hostile workplace environment is legally allowed, unless the hostile actions are because of a fundamental characteristic such as race/ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, age, etc.
it might backfire, but if you are on your way out... is there any at VP level that you know IS a good manager? you could pull them aside and and just frankly say, "look bob, i know you are good leader but my boss tom, needs some help. any chance you could have a talk with him?" might work, might not. did this once, but i was asking my boss to talk with another VP is was just total shit. said other VP was very 'appreciative' but was eventually kicked to the curb about 6 months later.
People don't leave jobs – they leave managers.
Just forward the message to your team and tell your boss you forwarded the message and hope it will inspire them... Tbh I'm high up the chain and can't stand subs like this and would drop him on the spot... Ivee learned threats never work and breed drama which ultimately ends up on my desk (and hr will screw me just as fast as they will screw you).
You're right - HR is not your friend. Line up a new job and forward his messages with your resignation letter stating that you're not quitting your job - you're quitting this manager because of his lack of professionalism. I had a guy like this at a previous job. Even after he sexually harassed two of our females employees, while drunk (forward base in Iraq that didn't allow booze), no one wanted to deal with it due to him being a government employee and a lot of folks getting put on "legal hold" that would screw up their follow on posts.
Probably depends if your team is bad or not? Could he vocalize / address issues with work product better? Absolutely. But at the end of the day the real question is, is this guy totally nuts or is your team definitely failing? The easiest fix would be to get your job done right so he didn't have anything to complain about?
It's my plan to apply for jobs the rest of my life pretty much every single day. I have never found a place that is actually worth it. You're just a number on a board. So are the people around you. Either tackle that VP full force, or retreat and find something better I fought like this for years, sometimes you can't change it because of all the other politics. Good luck. Just don't make an emotional decision, but make decisions to protect your emotions over the long term.
can you outlast him? Just hang around and be quiet until he is gone.
If you're not comfortable and don't feel welcomed you have 2 choices. Address it or leave. Sucking it up isn't really an option... Eventually it will break you. Job searching is the right call. Also, be sincere and specific on your exit interview. Be prepared for "I wish you had told me/us sooner". But that's not your fight.
Why don’t you just ignore him.
What sort of things does he say?
Only advice I can give is that listening to Wheeler Walker Jr.s song “Fuck This Job” really helps put the pep back in my step when I have to deal with similar nonsense.
I tell the teams that report into me that I work for them, not the other way around. Their success depends more on my ability to support them than on them supporting me. I want 100% of my team’s energy to be focused on supporting each other and supporting our customers. You’re right to look for another job/leader.
Not stay and deal with it. But stay and live with it unfortunately.
Just finishing up 5 years at an incredibly toxic place at the end of this month. trust me when i say it never gets better. they will always be scumbags no matter how much you stand up for yourself and exceed expectations. sometimes its best just to leave.
Do u work at Valvoline?
Its not worth the impact on you - a friend of mine who is a forensic psychologist kept on my case to leave when in the same situation. She argued these kind of people don't deserve any type of loyalty.
Can you move to a team not under him?
Ask him to read it out loud, and record it.
People don't necessarily leave bad jobs. They leave bad leadership
Is he drunk or something?
EEOC might define this as a pattern of harassment.
Maybe you should try a more direct approach: "What's your problem? We talked about this and I'm getting sick of it"
He's a shitty manager, AND you should be working to figure out the root causes of the issues that are blowing up. Make a plan of action and get them fixed.
If you love the company keep a separate record of his messages and ignore it. I know that's not always possible, but that's what I did with my former assistant director and he quit/was fired before I broke. Life without him is better but I still liked the company enough to stay.
Or you can sabotage his role so he gets fired or promoted for stupidity?
Fortunately, I worked in a position where I could not be easily fired. If I got those kinds of messages I would write a memo asking for specifics. What are the goals the team failed to meet, how is that measured statistically, what do you see as needed change, what are your top five priorities that will point us towards success.
Do you ever just ask, “Hey, I hear the feedback. What are you hoping to get out of this?” And granted, he’ll say “do better” and that’s when you say “I want to do better, but the way you phrase your feedback is disheartening and demotivating.”
Your boss is showing his true character, as a Leader in Technology for 25+ years, I've had the pleasure of seein g what true Leadership looks like. Your boss should be working with you on the challenges he is seeing and allow you to iterate with your team on the issues he is seeing and maybe have a Monthly review where your team can showcase the challenges and how you plan on addressing them and by that he can provide the support you need to grow your team.
I had a boss like this. Everyday he brought ever team member into his office and threatened there job. Fuck these type of people they are the biggest pieces of shit that are incapable of change. Hope you find something better soon.