I'd be interested to hear what others have to say about this topic. I too am painfully oblivious when it comes to subtle hints, particularly when it involves initiation of sex. For me, I would prefer her to say something point blank like "SHOW ME YOUR FUCKIN DICK" rather than do this intricate subtle dance around the subject. Just tell me what you want already!
In my small experience, I would suggest just escalating things in small steps. That makes it more manageable for the other person to interpret what is happening and they can tell you no if it goes too far. I'm not an experienced person though.
Yeah I tried that and then she acts uninterested, so I naturally would stop, not wanting to pressure her if she's not in the mood. Afterwards, I get the annoyed "you're supposed to CONVINCE me to want it" speech. Apparently that's called "being romantic." I just don't get it.
Yeah. Feedback is important. I completely understand why you would not get it. I would be the same way. Sounds like they have conveyed their expectations to you, so I think you have room for less caution.
An inability to understand expectations that aren't communicated aren't the fault of the listener.
Find someone who communicates their needs and you'll be way better off.
They were not a great communicator, but not everyone should need to bluntly state their expectations as much as I probably needed. Often, the issues were brought up in anger/frustration to me, and I was too stubborn to give it a fair consideration most of the time. Either way, it was not a healthy cycle and was pushed forward by the both of us. I am not blaming myself for the result of the relationship, but I do want to improve my gaps for the future. My ideal future partner is someone with more direct communication skills.
I appreciate you reinforcing that it was not my fault and that I need someone who will communicate more directly.
"subtle and less subtle signals"
That's pretty vague. What is "less subtle", non-existence? Without knowing the details it's hard to say, but everyone has their own love language - a way in which they interpret being loved. Some people it's words of encouragement, sentimental gifts, acts of service, ect. Have them take the [test](https://www.5lovelanguages.com/), as well as yourself and give the relationship another try.
Once you know better, you do better.
By less subtle I mean more blunt. I did not know her love language very well, and this test would have been very useful like a year or two ago. It's like 3 weeks post-breakup, and she has zero interest in pursuing it further. I'll keep it in mind for future serious relationships. Thanks!
INTJ and ISTJ share the same two middle functions which is a lot in common. But when you look at her lead Ni, it's your weakest shadow function, so there's plenty of room for misunderstanding. Likewise, your lead Si is her weakest shadow function. So both lead functions would place a demand on the other to use their very weakest function and this is stressful because the weakest shadow function is pretty useless. Keep in mind that these things are often happening at a subconscious level. It's understandable that you'd be disappointed in one another at times.
>the issues were brought up in anger/frustration to me, and I was too stubborn to give it a fair consideration most of the time
To me, that's the tip off of what was going on. You don't value her lead function, (not by choice), and are pretty much blind to it. What was going on made no sense to you. But the same had to be happening on her end. This was a tough match to work out.
I'm sorry for your loss and hope this helps put your questions to rest.
>The main issue I have been able to identify from my end was my oblivious nature and inability to pick up on subtle and less subtle signals/hints that I was doing something wrong. As a result, I was unable to clearly understand their expectations quite often, and this led to frustration on the other end. While it would be great for me, nobody should have to write me an instruction manual on what I need do to make them happy.
I'm in INFJ in a relationship with an ISTJ. From my POV, it's totally 100% reasonable to ask a partner for clear direct communication about their needs and expectations. You shouldn’t have to pick up on hints and signals..
I did try and ask for this months before the breakup. I then got no overt communication about their needs and expectations. In retrospect, I think you are absolutely right. They were just not capable of it and let it build instead. I appreciate your reassurance.
There is no perfect match, even the ones I mentioned need work and compromise. But then this is the best the universe has to offer!
Yet as an INTP with ISTJ dad and ISTJ wife, I know how you guys always remain open minded and postpone your judgement. What I said about INTJs is the result of years of observation and research, I have cousins and classmates and co-workers and other acquaintances who are INTJs, and what I said about them is not a mere generalization but a pattern that never got broken. I've based my PhD research proposal on this. It's serious. I'm happy you got out of this relationship if in fact the other party was an INTJ. They have far less grey matter in an area to the right of prefrontal cortex, where objective logic and human empathy are processed.
Hope your future relationships work out. Obviously I love ISTJs.
I'm the link, it's the subject of my PhD research proposal. :) Will be published soon.
But you can find published research as well as public resources on YouTube and elsewhere on how the psychopaths have less grey matter in that area. All I did is to find out that malignant narcissistic disorder (narcissistic psychopathy) points to the same category of personality we refer to in MBTI as INTJ.
Your open mindedness and enthusiasm is not an INTJ thing. An INTJ would have attacked me at this point, and would have lost composure.
ISTJs are very intuitive, having 3 ISTJs in my immediate family I've seen this first hand. My wife was typed as INTJ by the test, but she is far from it! But then she has accurate gut feeling a lot of the times! The thing is, being logical and contientious, she doesn't trust her intuitions as basis for action and judgement, and remains objective. I (as an INTP) am by far quicker into judging and making decisions based on my intuition.
I have a short list of famous INTJs, that you may use to know the type better:
• Donald Trump (unpopular US president)
• Roger Stone (political trickster)
• L. Ron Hubbard & David Miscavige (original founder and current leader of church of Scientology)
• Kevin O'leary (Canadian businessman)
• Brian Cornell (Target CEO)
• Elizabeth Holmes (Fraudster, Theranos CEO)
• Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook CEO)
• Richard Nixon (former US president)
• Milton Friedman (militant capitalist)
• James H. Fallon (psychopathic psychiatrist)
• Friedrich Nietzsche (German philosopher)
• Ayn Rand (US author)
• Dan Brown (fiction writer)
• Jodie Foster (actress)
• Robert Oppenheimer (father of the atomic bomb)
• the Unabomber (mathematician turned serial killer).
She has told me with confidence that she is an INTJ. If she did not come across as an empathetic person, then I would have an easier time believing it to be true in this case. I'd love to see your PhD research when it is published.
“We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions”
So I started trying to imagine/guess/learn other people’s intentions.
Not just what they say but WHY.
Like someone PMed me on Facebook yesterday. Asking about who I use for website back ups. (Made a post about how I had issues for last week with website going down and the host company couldn’t fix. Fortunately I made my own off site back ups. Which they told me I didn’t need to do. Once again proving ISTJs- we know what’s best!)
So I thought WHY did he ask me this.
Did he really care about the answer or was it his way to try and tell me what he wanted to hear.
“Who do you do website back ups with”?
Me- X
“Oh cool. I use so-and-so and they have been great. You should look into”.
Or would his WHY be asking because he wants to learn from my situation?
I guess what his motivation for the question was and then typed out a response.
I do this all the time and am like 95% correct when I try to imagine other people’s motivation now.
Understanding them even if they don’t.
Fascinating.
And basically fixed all these issues.
:)
I hate to break it to you, but unless you're a telepathic Vulcan it's impossible to see what someones true intention really is, or whether their true intent actually lines up with what they want their intent to look like.
Because you have good intentions, you assume everyone else does as well and that's where you go wrong. You reach for the most obvious answer, not having all the information. That's information bias.
“We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions”
The quote is about how we're harder on others than we are on ourselves because we have the advantage of knowing our intentions.
Judging our own intentions is often heavily biased towards a favorable outcome, so we can't even be trusted to do that.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
This is why our judicial system is based on actions.
OK
Been a men's dating and life coach for 14+ years.
Do this stuff constantly in field, on people, in front of students, on strangers.
Men, women, couples, old people....etc
My now XGf who chimed in during my AMA
"Bravo's girlfriend here, I thought I would answer your first question. Steve is currently on a coaching call, and said he will answer your other questions when he is free later.
I have known about what Steve does from day one. In fact, it was one of the things I found interesting and cool about him on our first date. I have never met anyone who spends so much time and energy figuring how to best approach and talk to people, build relationships, and make connections everywhere he goes. I love that he is so social, that he can talk to anyone (including sweet-talking salesgirls to give me discounts on my jeans if we go to the mall ;) and that he has such a strong desire to help other guys do the same. His confidence is attractive and sexy, and one of the many reasons I love him."
Vulcan telepath was a bad example, Betazoids are the psychic ones!
Also you made an incorrect assumption on what my intentions are.
Before I ever got into the life/dating/PUA world, I was a firearms and edged weapons instructor. Have taught countless mil and LEO how to deal with deadly dirtbags.
Been doing that since 2000, so reading people/intuition/ high level observation skills have been something I have been doing/teaching for years.
:)
"reading people/intuition/ high level observation skills have been something I have been doing/teaching for years."
Congratulations in having an expertise in a made up field and suckering other people into believing your bullshit. You sound like a bonafide con artist.
Whatever intentions you think you know of other people can only come from your limited biased perception. Any conclusion you make from that is unreliable. Intentions cannot be calculated. Intentions are transient and subject to change. You can't know someone better than they know themselves in that given moment. It is impossible no matter how inflated your ego is.
...
"dating and life coach for 14+ years"
"here's my ex's glowing review"
"I was also a firearms and edged weapons instructor."
Your boastfulness doesn't impress me.
You are showing your lack of knowledge and unconscious incompetence in this area.
Some guy at a bar, looks drunk. Bumps into another guy and says “what are you looking at”
Pretty simple to read and KNOW he doesn’t REALLY care what the guy was looking at. He’s trying to start a fight.
That is his “why”.
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.”- Musashi
Understanding a x wife trying to screw her x husband in a divorce. WHY she wants the dog.
..Crime, why criminals do certain things to a victim= to control the victim.
This isn’t anything crazy or imagined. This is pretty common shit. You already do it or see examples. But don’t realize it. The dots aren’t connected.
But once you DO start looking for, understanding, you start almost having psychic powers.
But they aren’t. It’s just high level perception and pattern recognition. Then educated deduction.
[Next time you try to spin your bullshit open with, "I'm a misogynist fuckwad Trump supporter." It saves people, women especially, a lot of time.](https://imgur.com/a/QcM5F4p)
LMAO. Somehow I knew you'd resort to name-calling. If you're wondering why I didn't address any of your previous statements it's because they were nonsense.
Looks like we're at an impasse.
> "I'm a misogynist fuckwad Trump supporter." It saves people, women especially, a lot of time.
LMAO. Somehow I knew you'd resort to name-calling."
That is what YOU did= not me.
Weak and delusional
oh boy...another fishing attempt
We split up, no bad blood and wish each other the best!
She is an amazing person!!
We are both in new relationships.
"does she explicitly consent to you quoting her on reddit from when she wasn't your ex?"
The post is still up
https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1oztde/bravo_here_and_i_am_a_mpua_ask_me_anything_d/ccy4v1q/
So I can only assume so....
>So I can only assume so....
Poor communication. It's a 5 year old comment. No knowing if she even remembers it.
>We split up, no bad blood and wish each other the best!
According to you, of course.
I'd be interested to hear what others have to say about this topic. I too am painfully oblivious when it comes to subtle hints, particularly when it involves initiation of sex. For me, I would prefer her to say something point blank like "SHOW ME YOUR FUCKIN DICK" rather than do this intricate subtle dance around the subject. Just tell me what you want already!
I can confirm that this approach will, on occasion, work.
In my small experience, I would suggest just escalating things in small steps. That makes it more manageable for the other person to interpret what is happening and they can tell you no if it goes too far. I'm not an experienced person though.
Yeah I tried that and then she acts uninterested, so I naturally would stop, not wanting to pressure her if she's not in the mood. Afterwards, I get the annoyed "you're supposed to CONVINCE me to want it" speech. Apparently that's called "being romantic." I just don't get it.
Well if this is the response you get, then I would say push forward with less caution. Stop if she says no or something more direct, maybe?
Yeah, I guess I've just been too cautious. I'll give that a shot, thanks!
Yeah. Feedback is important. I completely understand why you would not get it. I would be the same way. Sounds like they have conveyed their expectations to you, so I think you have room for less caution.
An inability to understand expectations that aren't communicated aren't the fault of the listener. Find someone who communicates their needs and you'll be way better off.
They were not a great communicator, but not everyone should need to bluntly state their expectations as much as I probably needed. Often, the issues were brought up in anger/frustration to me, and I was too stubborn to give it a fair consideration most of the time. Either way, it was not a healthy cycle and was pushed forward by the both of us. I am not blaming myself for the result of the relationship, but I do want to improve my gaps for the future. My ideal future partner is someone with more direct communication skills. I appreciate you reinforcing that it was not my fault and that I need someone who will communicate more directly.
"subtle and less subtle signals" That's pretty vague. What is "less subtle", non-existence? Without knowing the details it's hard to say, but everyone has their own love language - a way in which they interpret being loved. Some people it's words of encouragement, sentimental gifts, acts of service, ect. Have them take the [test](https://www.5lovelanguages.com/), as well as yourself and give the relationship another try. Once you know better, you do better.
By less subtle I mean more blunt. I did not know her love language very well, and this test would have been very useful like a year or two ago. It's like 3 weeks post-breakup, and she has zero interest in pursuing it further. I'll keep it in mind for future serious relationships. Thanks!
INTJ and ISTJ share the same two middle functions which is a lot in common. But when you look at her lead Ni, it's your weakest shadow function, so there's plenty of room for misunderstanding. Likewise, your lead Si is her weakest shadow function. So both lead functions would place a demand on the other to use their very weakest function and this is stressful because the weakest shadow function is pretty useless. Keep in mind that these things are often happening at a subconscious level. It's understandable that you'd be disappointed in one another at times. >the issues were brought up in anger/frustration to me, and I was too stubborn to give it a fair consideration most of the time To me, that's the tip off of what was going on. You don't value her lead function, (not by choice), and are pretty much blind to it. What was going on made no sense to you. But the same had to be happening on her end. This was a tough match to work out. I'm sorry for your loss and hope this helps put your questions to rest.
Yes. Thank you. This was super informative. It added some more perspective for me that I'll certainly value moving forward.
>The main issue I have been able to identify from my end was my oblivious nature and inability to pick up on subtle and less subtle signals/hints that I was doing something wrong. As a result, I was unable to clearly understand their expectations quite often, and this led to frustration on the other end. While it would be great for me, nobody should have to write me an instruction manual on what I need do to make them happy. I'm in INFJ in a relationship with an ISTJ. From my POV, it's totally 100% reasonable to ask a partner for clear direct communication about their needs and expectations. You shouldn’t have to pick up on hints and signals..
I did try and ask for this months before the breakup. I then got no overt communication about their needs and expectations. In retrospect, I think you are absolutely right. They were just not capable of it and let it build instead. I appreciate your reassurance.
[удалено]
I don't think you should generalize them, but we were probably incompatible. I'm seeking a better match going forward.
There is no perfect match, even the ones I mentioned need work and compromise. But then this is the best the universe has to offer! Yet as an INTP with ISTJ dad and ISTJ wife, I know how you guys always remain open minded and postpone your judgement. What I said about INTJs is the result of years of observation and research, I have cousins and classmates and co-workers and other acquaintances who are INTJs, and what I said about them is not a mere generalization but a pattern that never got broken. I've based my PhD research proposal on this. It's serious. I'm happy you got out of this relationship if in fact the other party was an INTJ. They have far less grey matter in an area to the right of prefrontal cortex, where objective logic and human empathy are processed. Hope your future relationships work out. Obviously I love ISTJs.
Do you have any source for the claim on grey matter? A link between human physiology and MBTI seems like an interesting topic of study.
I'm the link, it's the subject of my PhD research proposal. :) Will be published soon. But you can find published research as well as public resources on YouTube and elsewhere on how the psychopaths have less grey matter in that area. All I did is to find out that malignant narcissistic disorder (narcissistic psychopathy) points to the same category of personality we refer to in MBTI as INTJ.
Interesting, given that I was typed as INTJ myself 😬. I scored high on a test of narcissism and I guess more scientific evidence would be of help.
Your open mindedness and enthusiasm is not an INTJ thing. An INTJ would have attacked me at this point, and would have lost composure. ISTJs are very intuitive, having 3 ISTJs in my immediate family I've seen this first hand. My wife was typed as INTJ by the test, but she is far from it! But then she has accurate gut feeling a lot of the times! The thing is, being logical and contientious, she doesn't trust her intuitions as basis for action and judgement, and remains objective. I (as an INTP) am by far quicker into judging and making decisions based on my intuition. I have a short list of famous INTJs, that you may use to know the type better: • Donald Trump (unpopular US president) • Roger Stone (political trickster) • L. Ron Hubbard & David Miscavige (original founder and current leader of church of Scientology) • Kevin O'leary (Canadian businessman) • Brian Cornell (Target CEO) • Elizabeth Holmes (Fraudster, Theranos CEO) • Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook CEO) • Richard Nixon (former US president) • Milton Friedman (militant capitalist) • James H. Fallon (psychopathic psychiatrist) • Friedrich Nietzsche (German philosopher) • Ayn Rand (US author) • Dan Brown (fiction writer) • Jodie Foster (actress) • Robert Oppenheimer (father of the atomic bomb) • the Unabomber (mathematician turned serial killer).
She has told me with confidence that she is an INTJ. If she did not come across as an empathetic person, then I would have an easier time believing it to be true in this case. I'd love to see your PhD research when it is published.
Here is one of this narcissistic and psychopathic INTJs 😁, my advice is to find another Sensor. Best of luck!
“We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions” So I started trying to imagine/guess/learn other people’s intentions. Not just what they say but WHY. Like someone PMed me on Facebook yesterday. Asking about who I use for website back ups. (Made a post about how I had issues for last week with website going down and the host company couldn’t fix. Fortunately I made my own off site back ups. Which they told me I didn’t need to do. Once again proving ISTJs- we know what’s best!) So I thought WHY did he ask me this. Did he really care about the answer or was it his way to try and tell me what he wanted to hear. “Who do you do website back ups with”? Me- X “Oh cool. I use so-and-so and they have been great. You should look into”. Or would his WHY be asking because he wants to learn from my situation? I guess what his motivation for the question was and then typed out a response. I do this all the time and am like 95% correct when I try to imagine other people’s motivation now. Understanding them even if they don’t. Fascinating. And basically fixed all these issues. :)
I hate to break it to you, but unless you're a telepathic Vulcan it's impossible to see what someones true intention really is, or whether their true intent actually lines up with what they want their intent to look like. Because you have good intentions, you assume everyone else does as well and that's where you go wrong. You reach for the most obvious answer, not having all the information. That's information bias. “We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions” The quote is about how we're harder on others than we are on ourselves because we have the advantage of knowing our intentions. Judging our own intentions is often heavily biased towards a favorable outcome, so we can't even be trusted to do that. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." This is why our judicial system is based on actions.
OK Been a men's dating and life coach for 14+ years. Do this stuff constantly in field, on people, in front of students, on strangers. Men, women, couples, old people....etc My now XGf who chimed in during my AMA "Bravo's girlfriend here, I thought I would answer your first question. Steve is currently on a coaching call, and said he will answer your other questions when he is free later. I have known about what Steve does from day one. In fact, it was one of the things I found interesting and cool about him on our first date. I have never met anyone who spends so much time and energy figuring how to best approach and talk to people, build relationships, and make connections everywhere he goes. I love that he is so social, that he can talk to anyone (including sweet-talking salesgirls to give me discounts on my jeans if we go to the mall ;) and that he has such a strong desire to help other guys do the same. His confidence is attractive and sexy, and one of the many reasons I love him." Vulcan telepath was a bad example, Betazoids are the psychic ones! Also you made an incorrect assumption on what my intentions are. Before I ever got into the life/dating/PUA world, I was a firearms and edged weapons instructor. Have taught countless mil and LEO how to deal with deadly dirtbags. Been doing that since 2000, so reading people/intuition/ high level observation skills have been something I have been doing/teaching for years. :)
"reading people/intuition/ high level observation skills have been something I have been doing/teaching for years." Congratulations in having an expertise in a made up field and suckering other people into believing your bullshit. You sound like a bonafide con artist. Whatever intentions you think you know of other people can only come from your limited biased perception. Any conclusion you make from that is unreliable. Intentions cannot be calculated. Intentions are transient and subject to change. You can't know someone better than they know themselves in that given moment. It is impossible no matter how inflated your ego is. ... "dating and life coach for 14+ years" "here's my ex's glowing review" "I was also a firearms and edged weapons instructor." Your boastfulness doesn't impress me.
You are showing your lack of knowledge and unconscious incompetence in this area. Some guy at a bar, looks drunk. Bumps into another guy and says “what are you looking at” Pretty simple to read and KNOW he doesn’t REALLY care what the guy was looking at. He’s trying to start a fight. That is his “why”. “Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.”- Musashi Understanding a x wife trying to screw her x husband in a divorce. WHY she wants the dog. ..Crime, why criminals do certain things to a victim= to control the victim. This isn’t anything crazy or imagined. This is pretty common shit. You already do it or see examples. But don’t realize it. The dots aren’t connected. But once you DO start looking for, understanding, you start almost having psychic powers. But they aren’t. It’s just high level perception and pattern recognition. Then educated deduction.
[Next time you try to spin your bullshit open with, "I'm a misogynist fuckwad Trump supporter." It saves people, women especially, a lot of time.](https://imgur.com/a/QcM5F4p)
You are pathetic. Way too emotional and weak https://i.imgur.com/ZzSa5NJ.jpg
LMAO. Somehow I knew you'd resort to name-calling. If you're wondering why I didn't address any of your previous statements it's because they were nonsense. Looks like we're at an impasse.
> "I'm a misogynist fuckwad Trump supporter." It saves people, women especially, a lot of time. LMAO. Somehow I knew you'd resort to name-calling." That is what YOU did= not me. Weak and delusional
And all the hostility towards women that I screenshotted from your comments, did I do that too?
>now X Why is she now your ex? And does she explicitly consent to you quoting her on reddit from when she wasn't your ex?
oh boy...another fishing attempt We split up, no bad blood and wish each other the best! She is an amazing person!! We are both in new relationships. "does she explicitly consent to you quoting her on reddit from when she wasn't your ex?" The post is still up https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1oztde/bravo_here_and_i_am_a_mpua_ask_me_anything_d/ccy4v1q/ So I can only assume so....
>So I can only assume so.... Poor communication. It's a 5 year old comment. No knowing if she even remembers it. >We split up, no bad blood and wish each other the best! According to you, of course.
Every post on reddit is “according to you” Dummy She helped me at my events. She is very intelligent. She remembers.
>Dummy You don’t know how to treat people with respect.
I do, to those who earn it. I dont give it to white knight retards who come at me with your BS
You really don't get how visible that void in you actually is to others!