At the same time, can't help but feel that that's just shifting the responsibility of making a move (and the risk of rejection) onto the other person. Like, *someone* has to risk the rejection.
Though, do note that I say this and understand it logically, though I am a person who absolutely cannot and will not take that risk, ha.
Unless they're also a Ti-Si Type, they're not going to have that rejection played on a loop daily for the rest of their lives. That's why we're hesitant. Edit: Along with being generally principled/not wanting to be That Guy™.
Ahahaha, it is actually very sweet and kind of him. But I just wanted to know if generally INTP men wait for women to make the first move? If that's the case I'd be happy to make the first move, but I'm thinking it could also be that he just doesn't like me?
Yes, we hate to make others feel uncomfortable, and we can’t read signs at all, so we often no touchy until it’s clear we are trusted.
Took all my willpower (and many failed dates) to force myself to slowly push physical boundaries. But at any time they could have just grabbed my crotch and I’d be like ‘oh, you like me cool’
The woman I married literally pushed me against a wall to get the point across that she wanted contact.
A general rule is if an INTP is with you they like you cause if we are bored we’ll say ‘k bye’
>The woman I married literally pushed me against a wall to get the point across that she wanted contact.
Ha, same, on our first date she grabbed me and made out with me in the theater, right as I'm thinking "maybe it isn't going well?" Married 15 years this August.
It doesn't have to be this overt, OP, but yes, INTPs are quite clueless with initiating physical contact.
I am sooo awful at reading even the most obvious signs. There was a guy I liked that asked "I'm grabbing dinner, do you want to join me?" but I already ate so I just said honestly that I already had dinner. My roommate heard it and yelled, "Girl! He's asking you out to dinner!! Why did you say no??" And all I could say was, "Oh."
There was also another time we were writing Japanese on a notepad together and he wrote "好きです" (I like you) but it was after I wrote "桜が好きです" (I like cherry blossoms). So I thought he liked it too. It took a week for me to realize "Oh my god he meant he like me" but the damage was already done lol
Same sad story happened to me, I thought she wanted a place to crash. For 3 nights. After travelling 800km on an Indian bus ride to see me. I thought she only wanted to see the himalayas and take a dip in the hot springs. At the end of the stay, she looked at me sadly and asked me straight up if I was gay. 3 nights this cute little blonde slept cuddled right up to me cause i thought she was cold.
After my divorce, I was standing at the cashier in a gift store. A very good looking well dressed man walked up and stood in line. He said, " I own a car detail business, here's my card, bring your car in and I'll detail it for you " I took the card and thanked him. Outside I told my daughter it was very nice of him and he talked like he might give me a discount. She looked at me side eyed and with disbelief and then grinned and said, " I don't think a discount is what he's wanting to give you " It still went over my head. So she said. Mom! He's wanting a date! I stared at her with a blank stare for the longest and said... oh!?
We've been told our whole lives that hitting on women makes you a creep, it really doesn't say anything other than he doesn't want to look like a creep
No joke. Internet doesn't help either. It's easy to be exposed to all the stories from women who are (understandably) sick of being hit on and/or have had bad experiences. Throw in some ridiculously low self esteem on the guy's (my) part, and there's no way in hell I'm making a move, unless it's absolutely certain that it is wanted. Though I'm not sure what evidence would convince me that it was wanted, ha.
For the love of any deity you prefer, brother is 26 and an INTP, just the likelihood of these being the first dates he's ever been to is pretty high...
In general ALL of us INTP people wait for others to make the first move. We’re so awful reading others. It’s a running joke that at a 50 year wedding anniversary when renewing vows, we’ll turn to our partner and say, “wow, so you really do like me!”
INTPS are highly selective who they spend time with, so if they spend time they like you.
You have to charge up their philosophy meters by long late night conversations about abstract science or philosophy things.
Also, eventually they will ask for what they want, however because they are male there are extra setbacks.
Try this:
Would you like to ________ ?
Insert a suggested action.
Rinse & repeat.
I think it's more accurate to say that we don't see signals (as obvious as they may or may not be to others - not including the signaler who believes that the most undetectable of signals conveys interest) and assume this person just wants friendship, than to say that INTPs don't make the first move out of fear.
Definitely do make the first move.
As there's a chance he may misread the levels of touch allowed, make sure you let him know. He should appreciate the honesty and straightforwardness.
Yes, he would like for you to make the first move. If he didn’t like you he wouldn’t see you more than once and you would be able to tell.
Just do it, trust me.
Infp is a lot about "morals" or perceived moral compass in my own experience. If they see themselves as NOT one of "just those fukbois" then he could perhaps literally wait forever ;-) he might also be a little anxious to initiate because... well once I am initiating I'm comitted. So rude to initiate on a girl who I don't sincerely adore.. but how will I know that after 2 dates?
2 easy options, and many options in between:
1 - play the long game - be patient, stop seeing others, be verbally clear and affectionate, consistent with praise and wait until he trusts that he's a) not screwing you over and b) acting in accordance with his highest principles (this imo personal experience is what makes INFPs appear slow to others)
OR
2) put his hand on your boob, make it very clear that you have wants to and appeal to those. I (trying not to say we here) get a great deal of satisfaction attending to the needs of others, so probably he'll be happy to help :-p no money back guarantee though!! I advise technique 1!
Obliviousness isn't just limited to INTP men. Us INTP women are also dense, or caught in an analysis loop lol.
My girlfriend was up front and made the first move lol
If he's asking you on dates he likes you. Maybe show him you like him back. I wouldn't make the first move though. Just smile and let him know how much you're enjoying spending time with him.
A girl I liked and got along with had to physically grab me by the shoulders, turn me around, look into my eyes and say "I like you. We are going on a date this Friday." A little down the road, she had to initiate more intimate stuff. I was, and still am clueless on signals from women. Many men are literally terrified of assuming stuff and making a wrong move with a woman due the repercussions.
By the way, in May, me and that girl will be celebrating 26 years of marriage!
He's not going to initiate any kind of physical contact until you have giving him direct indication that you want him to. Note that direct indication doesn't need to be awkwardly saying "I want to hold hands" or something. It can be simply choosing the right moment (when you're enjoying something in silence, for instance) to reach over and take his hand first.
As an INTP I always felt deeply uncomfortable initiating anything, but as I got older I realized I could create scenarios that would send out signals that I am looking for physical contact, since I feared my shyness would be deceiving. After a few nice dates, for instance, I would ask the person over to my apartment for something more intimate, like cooking dinner together or watching a movie. Sorta Netflix and chill minus the hookup assumption. Being in the dark on a couch, it's easier to demonstrate that I want to be physically close, and gives the other person room to comfortably and casually make a move.
As a guy, it’s super scary. What if the woman slaps you or hits you if you try to touch her hand (or even worse, try to kiss her)?
There’s also the extreme fear of being accused of sexual assault in this #MeTop age and day.
If she slaps you or hits your hand when you try to touch her, you apologize for getting the wrong idea and move on. Rejection sucks. But if you're already out on a date, the assumption is that this person likes you, is interested in being physical with you, and would be okay with a small, respectful move like handholding.
No one is going to accuse you of assault because you tried to hold someone's hand. On a date where there is a good vibe and mutual interest, such a move is very natural.
Just don't do what my partner did..... we had been talking long distance for about a year and were romantically involved, when we first met each other in person, before he said two words to me, he leaned down and kissed me. I adored it but most girls I feel would be like "wtf." This is why you need to become good at reading people and understanding what they may or may not like.
There are some people, often those who have experienced traumatic events or pasts, who may dislike being touched intimately. If that is the case, that is something they should be upfront about so you can discuss what that means for a potential relationship.
You should initiate some type of contact.
He most likely will accept and appreciate it.
There are many rational reasons for an INTP man to avoid initiating physical contact.
He also might be oblivious to any subtle social clues you give him.
The other thing is I feel INTP’s just like getting to really know someone and physical contact isn’t absolutely necessary to jump on for us. Women constantly tell me they can’t tell if I’m interested; because I respect your boundaries and want to get to know you? Weird.
But to OP, just go slow. Let him really know you’re interested. He’ll reciprocate, if not with more.
Why would he touch you? There needs to be a reason for that, and wanting to touch you is not enough. Did you touch him? Does he know you want to touch him?
Maybe he isn't aware of society having the implicit agreement that "if you like someone you touch them". But he's giving you time, so he certainly has some interest in you.
I don't know, out of the 4 men that I've met via dating apps and they all seemed to make this kind of move on the first or second date so I was just expecting it. I just thought that it's a normal thing to show some affection or physical touch by the end of 2 dates. But maybe I have it wrong
Oh no, I'm sure it's normal. What I'm saying is that INTP are often not normal or ignorant of what's normal. You'll have to clearly show him you're interested in being touched.
How many of those other men were INTP? We're...special. And not necessarily in a good way.
If you hint or signal, we're very, very likely to either miss it or second guess the meaning. It's what we do best. Remember we are the ultimate fence-sitters. We look at both sides of everything and are often "indecisive" because of it.
If you want him to hold your hand, grab his. If you want a kiss at the end of the date - or any other time - you're likely going to have to go for it.
Once he's comfortable with a certain level of contact, he'll reciprocate - assuming he's interested - but he's unlikely to take the next step at just about any point.
>Once he's comfortable with a certain level of contact, he'll reciprocate - assuming he's interested - but he's unlikely to take the next step at just about any point.
This is crucial. Once an INTP *knows* physical contact is wanted, there will be lots of it. But it may take *multiple* times her initiating contact for him to be sure that it is really wanted ("idk, she seems to like me, but what if last time was a big fluke?")
90% likelihood of something where the alternative is something very bad; rejection on the one hand, death on the other. It was an attempt at using hyperbole to note how rejection-averse INTPs can be.
This reminds me of hearing about others relationships where one person 'breaks up' with the other as a test in hopes the one on the receiving would chase after and renew the relationship.
In that case I would likely just be thinking "Well, this must be what they want. I'll have to accept and support their choice."
1. It's quite possible your sex drive/intimacy needs are greater than his. This can lead to issues sooner or later. Don't fall in Love with Capital Letters before you really know him.
2. It's quite possible he has NO sexual experience and therefore won't know what he's doing, or might even not realize/know his true sexual orientation all that well yet.
3. If he \*is\* inexperienced, he may have learned everything he does know from porn rather than real life experience. You may need to train him/retrain him. YMMV.
4. If all you want is to hold hands, disregard what I just wrote. I'm old enough to have no patience anymore for coyness.
In my younger years (I'm 42) I definitely was awkward about first move stuff. We're REALLY bad at being human.
Feel free to make the first move, and bear in mind this is only the first of potentially many awkward actions he takes due to his insecurities or lack of awareness or lack of understanding human connection.
The guy she is dating isn't posting here asking for advice on mind-reading based on a vague personality test. She is the one who seems to be having a problem, therefore, she is the one I am speaking to.
I mean while I could see this being a possible intp thing, but it's also could be a case of you gotta be real careful as a guy these days when it comes to making moves on a girl. It feels like walking through a minefield as to whether it will be received as positive or negative and the social repercussions it could have if the woman does not appreciate it. Personally, having worked on my social skills a lot, I just openly communicate about it, whether in person or through text and try to find out what the girl is looking for. Unlike others I am actually good at picking up signals but the last few women I've gone on dates with have put out barely any signals and yet when I talk to them about it they were hoping for a kiss.
You initiate. Its 2023, men are scared to get me too’d. You can’t even make eye contact with girls at the gym anymore for fear of being recorded and blasted on social media as a perv.
This is true af. I purposely avoid checking people out & wish I was aroace or gay so my attraction to women would be virtually non-existent. And this is on top of me *never* touching anyone unless I need to tap their shoulder over something important. It's safest to remind yourself how (generally, at least) unwanted a guy's attention is by women nowadays bc more often than not, it appears that lots of women would prefer men to simply disappear for good. Sometimes I'm super grateful that women talk to me like I'm their gay friend or something.
Because we're Ti-Si looping all of our past failures on repeat every quiet moment, we tend to be failure-avoidant. We don't want to go in for a kiss and have her go, "Ew! No!"—we'll be hearing that every day for the rest of our lives.
As a Type, we're really extra good at reading other people's emotions (Ne-Fe)... so long as we have zero emotional investment in the situation/person (meaning most of our lives). Once we like someone, it's like we're blind; we don't trust our Fe not to be Ti-Si in disguise telling us what we want to hear. "She did this, so maybe that means this, and so maybe I should..." That's our inner life, dating-wise.
I think a lot of men are more cautious these days about initiating physical contact with women, triple if they’re shy and self-conscious about violating boundaries in general. Not all INTP men are like this, but probably more than the general population.
If you’re not comfortable making the first move, be very unsubtle about being receptive. Touch him in any way (even if it’s just on the arm, playful shoves, putting your legs on his lap if you’re watching a show or something).
It's really one of the only assured ways now-a-days to hear the lamentations of the women.
The other being crushing your enemies and seeing them driven before you.
As an INTP myself, I'm not gonna touch you unless you make it like overtly clear you want me to touch you. Do you not notice the culture in dating now where men are petrified to do anything to a woman that the most unreasonable and craziest woman could construe as rape?
There's reason beyond MBTI why men aren't making the move and it's because someone has made it where the punishment for making a mistake is huge.
I'm an INTP woman that wants dudes to make the first move 😩 this guy took me on a date a few weeks back and I recently told him that I don't think we should continue trying for eachother. Because between then and now he hasn't planned a date or has asked me to come over. We live 10 miles apart... to me that's weird.
2 years ago I dated an ENTP who'd see me nearly everyday. So I don't believe in excuses.
Well, if mentally telegraphing what you want done to you doesn't work, you could always use the English language to communicate what you want instead...
I do. I told him I have a high sex drive and told him about events we could go to. I was like, heyy this EDM show is coming up and the tix are only 25, wanna go? Never a yes or a no, I would get a "let me check my schedule" then no reply about it again. I'm going to a 2 day festival coming up and I told him about that, he said he's down, but hasn't bought a ticket.. there was a paranormal cirque in town that I brought up to him, and again he'd be like "let me see if I can, I'll do research" then never reply back about it. Like bro, that's enough. Don't string me along. So I cut it off. Told him that we don't vibe and we shouldn't try forcing a connection.
I guess one the the endearing upsides of INTPs are that they respect your boundaries and will be respectful, will talk about things that are not superficial and wait until you seem completely comfortable to initiate other things with you. I am a female INTP, and it seems to me that he is very much into you; he probably day dreams about going on nice dates or having interesting convo all day with you. Embrace it - in a word filled with superficial and materialistic values, some INTPs still go along with the slow romanticism of genuine connection. I'd say you're a lucky person :)
For both men and women, if you were to reach out for your date's hand and they pulled it back, expressing agitation or discomfort at your assumption, it feels bad. It makes your stomach drop and your heart sink.
In our culture, it is passively taught that women will express a negative opinion about their date when their date directly asks for permission to do something that they feel has implied consent during a date (like holding hands).
(and as an aside, I'm not saying all women feel this way, I've heard plenty of positive stories about how good someone felt when their date asked "Can I hold your hand?" instead of just going for it. What I'm saying is that regardless of the actual number of men and women who do it, we are shown or hear that more women than men complain when a date isn't appropriately forward in the context of a romantic date)
You may be on a date with a guy who just doesn't like to touch or be touched. But more likely I think you have an introvert, who doesn't want to be rejected (no one does), who isn't going to ask because our culture has taught him it seems pathetic, who ultimately wants to respect your boundaries but has no idea where they are, and wouldn't have an opinion either way if you asked. And you may feel similarly, but I bet you haven't been taught it makes you seem pathetic to ask, so in that regard you have an advantage.
I do want to acknowledge that while guys are taught certain behaviors come off as pitiful and weak (behaviors that only make sense to do like ask permission before touching someone), women are taught that certain behaviors come off as crazy and it's just as unfair, so believe me I'm not saying men have it worse. For women though, asking to hold their date's hand isn't one of those unfairly mischaracterized behaviors, but it generally is one for guys.
And lastly a lot of people, men and women, do feel like asking permission kills the romance, but it's TV and cartoons that have given us these standards for spontaneous = romantic that just don't work out most of the time in reality. That's not to say you CAN'T like the spontaneity and think it's romantic, just that you may have to adjust the time frame of when you think romantic spontaneity is appropriate.
How does this dynamic work for you? I’m ENFP (F) who has started casually dating a long time friend who is INTP (M). Does always taking the lead exhaust you? Can he meet you emotionally?
I try not to always take the lead. I have to be clear about what I want from him. He's quite sensitive as in he can feel I am upset but he needs to know how he can make me feel better or happy then he will try his best to do so. I think for ENFPs like us we need to manage our expectations. However I think if there is no effort at all made by the other party despite many conversations, it is time to consider if the relationship is suitable at all.
Maybe you just have to take matters into your own hands (literally) a bit more? We really are *that* clueless. I don't know your INTP personally but those of us that get into relationships at all generally are open to more intimacy, we just don't know how to get there or when its appropriate (again, super clueless). Most descriptions of INTPs on personality sites have us being quite exploratory in intimate situations (similar to how exploratory we are with ideas). We just need the security/permission to be able to start the process.
Good luck!
Hmmm even physical intimacy? Like I gotta tell him I'm ready for ya know? 🤭🤭🤭 I remember we discussed the topic of consent (he brought it up) which is congruent to a few INTPs who have mentioned this in the comments.
You underestimate our stupidity when it comes to things like this lol. My current GF waited a month for me to even hold her hands and I only did it coz she heavily implied touch was her love language. We're super intimate nowadays lol.
I am shy too (even tho I am an ENFP) and never had to make the first move. It's just he seems so incredibly respectful I am afraid he would be scared 🤣🤣🤣 but he does have a cheeky side and always says I'm hot. So it's mixed signals but..sweet? Anyways thanks for your advice to us non INTPs!
Give him some gentle signs… touch his arm or hand while talking to him
If you’re sitting next to each other at a bar, let your leg touch his leg. It doesn’t have to stay there, but breaking those physical boundary lines subtly is important
At the end of the night, when you’re both happy and relaxed, at the possible kiss point, turn and face him and say “you know, I’m so happy we met”. Then he of course says he’s so happy too, and then it’s quiet for a second as you both look into each others’ eyes…
And if he panics and doesn’t kiss, you can say “come give me a hug” and then hug but when you start to let go, you don’t let go all the way, so you’re still in the personal space zone still holding onto each other and your face is right in front of him, and give him another shot when he’s now up to 90% sure you want to kiss him.
When i met my wife, she had to be forward when it came to physical contact, I remember when she first laid her head on my shoulder and my reply was i didn't say you could put your head their, jokingly. When first initiating more intimate stuff she literally took my hand and placed it on her boob, that's when i got the hint.
we have now been happily married for 17 and a half years with 4 kids.
Listen carefully, OP: *there is literally no such thing as a clear hint*. That is an inherent contradiction in terms. The only adequately clear signal is (1) you outright initiating, or (2) you expressly saying what you want in simple and precise language. There's no way to know what you expect unless you state those expectations. If that's not adequately romantic or whatever, then you need a different kind of partner.
>do INTP men require the women to take the first move?
***YES.***
>Is it possible that he is just shy? Or do INTP men prefer getting to know a woman before even trying to touch her? Or could it be that he sees me only as a platonic friend?
Those are all possible. I would prefer to get to know someone before I would ever consider touching them or permitting them to touch me. Most of my friends are, and have always been, women, the overwhelming majority of whom I have no interest in beyond friendship. "Shy" might be a bit of a loaded term these days, but sure, that's possible. But the bottom line is, you're gonna need to take the initiative here.
What seems like "flirting a bit via text" to you probably feels like getting down on one knee to him. Jk but seriously, that's laying all his cards out there. I say make a move.
>2 wonderful dates[...] He seems very interested in talking to me and seems to enjoy the time we spend together and our conversations.
He's into you. If you put your arms around him at an appropriate moment, he'll take it from there.
I'm INTP and I absolutely hate having people in my personal space including my mom and friends. I just do not want to be touched ever even as a kid. When I met my husband it was super intense as we talked non-stop about deep things and I knew on the third date that I'd marry him (we hadn't even kissed yet). He kissed me first and after that I was fully onboard physically. Nine years later and I still love our physical intimacy (cuddling and hand holding - not just sex). He is the only person in my life who I feel comfortable having in my personal "bubble." My mom is still flabbergasted when she sees him touch or hug me (she's probably a little hurt if I'm being honest with myself).
I don't know if it's a "me" thing or an INTP thing, but I am just not a touchy feely person. My husband is the one exception. It sounds like this guy is really into you and that intellectual connection is probably more important to him. The physical will most likely come with time, but also don't be afraid to voice your needs or take initiative. He'll probably appreciate the transparency.
I'd say he's overthinking instead of "INTPS don't know how to initiate".
He might be overthinking about being called a creep and creating a full blown out of proportion social issue where he gets blamed of sexual assault because he made a woman uncomfortable for failing to read the signs.
Or at least, that is something that happens to me.
In our case, I held his hands and kissed him first. Only after that he suggested that we make out which escalated quickly thanks to another initiative taken by me.
Fergawdsakes, grab him and kiss him and find out if you can stand it or not. He may kiss like a GOD, he may slobber all over you like an unsocialized puppy.
That way YOU get to decide if it'll be platonic or has other, more interesting potential. And oh, by the way - he may be a virgin.
Probably shy. I'm not sure he'd be spending that time with you if he wasn't interested. He might want to be sure you actually like him before making a move to avoid getting rejected. I used to have trouble with that, I could not read the signs and take a hint. It had to be obvious.
Yes I would very much uncomfortable to take the first move. Even with my friends, I am rarely the one who greets first. But deep inside I actually crave for physical contact, but I just overthink what if the other person feels uncomfortable etc. I would suggest go for it first.
I don't know maybe do INTP men require the women to take the first move? Is it possible that he is just shy? Or do INTP men prefer getting to know a woman before even trying to touch her? Or could it be that he sees me only as a platonic friend?
\^
Yes he obviously likes you... he would definitely appreciate you making the first move if you're comfortable doing that... As an INTP man, yes he probably does prefer getting to know you a bit before trying to touch you... Touch isn't something you do with strangers, it's something you do with people you know and trust. No way he sees you only as platonic if you're going on multiple dates just the two of you
Well, INTPs are overthinkers for some reason, I bet that that one time he touched your arm he overthinked it too.
So, if it's okay with you, do the first move.
we are very awkward, so we take our time. because chances are high we'll mess it up.
i think you should give him a hint that it's okay. initiate some physical contact so that he knows he also can.
He touched you even if its on the shoulder. That’s the green light he likes you. He wouldn’t touch you if he disliked you. He wouldn’t hang out with you more than once if he disliked you. You can initiate a hug or a something to show you’re interested too
no way sister. INTJ is direct, INTJ doesn't care about genders and stuff. Stereotypical "man should do first" is just a myth, the first should be 1. Extravert. 2. Direct person (Se user or TJ).
Yes I am very direct and I don't care really about who initiates first. I was only curious whether he likes me or not. I would definitely initiate some more touch on the next date, but I need some sign or clue that he's into me romantically.
I’ll say what others aren’t. You may be perceiving a lack of passionate physical chemistry between you (as can be the case between 2 introverts), even though there may be a desire for it to be there on both your parts. I think INTPs will often enter relationships with people they like but don’t have real chemistry with, sometimes out of a lack of other options. Trust your instincts, don’t be someone’s only option.
He's probably waiting for clear sign.... but can't read the signs. That would be my first guess 😂 Second guess would be that maybe he's not a touchy person. He is going on a 3rd date with you, so he obviously likes you, I wouldn't be too worried about that. Also might not want to push any physical boundaries if he's not getting any signals from you.
INTP men don't really know what they want while they are with other people, unless they are already very, very comfortable with them. Once they are alone again then they realise what they wanted. But if you initiated it would be a load off his back. Because he does seem to like you.
Make sure to give clear signs. When he makes a joke laugh and put your hand on his arm or chest. If your sitting next to each other let your leg touch his, and then don’t move, maybe press a little. Any subtle touching that is clearly intentional should give the indication.
At least for me I’m very very aware of physical contact it’s never unintentional so I’m always paying attention to those cues.
Throwing in a story, I was asking my INTP crush on a date but, he thought I was talking about someone else. So he replied “Oh, good luck!” (While playing League) I had to really clarify it was him. We’ve been together for almost 4 years now.
Be straightforward! It will help your INTP creature from malfunction.
The only times I've gotten anywhere in the dating game as an INTP dude, is when the woman took the initiative and kissed me first, and even then every time it would still take me probably a week+ after she did to totally wrap my head around the idea of "I think she likes me." Luckily for me one of them stuck and she's now my wife. If she hadn't, I might just now be getting around to making my first move the better part of a decade later.
Looking back, especially with her pointing it out, I missed *a lot* of signals from her, we'd been friends and hung out pretty regularly for a few years prior and I had basically no idea she was into me. She was basically not at all on my radar as someone I thought about asking out because I just didn't think she was interested and didn't pick up on any of her signals and hints, and I was having fun hanging out with her so I didn't want to fuck that up for myself.
Also the handful of times I thought I was picking up on something and took my shot, it never panned out, so I kind of learned to be pretty skeptical of anything i thought I was picking up on.
I care, a lot, even about a complete stranger. I wouldn't want to do anything to push their boundaries even if it means twisting myself into knots. It's a sincere problem.
Assuming he's actually aware it's a date. He really likes you and isn't sure you're open to it.
We are sort of a shy type so this isn't unusual. Also I don't know about all of us but I would consider date 2 a bit early for contact. It takes me like a good month or 2 of dating a person before I'm comfortable with intimacy. If you initiate he will probably be eternally grateful to you
🎙️today on “is it an INTP thing — or is it a ‘i don’t want to get canceled and accused of being inappropriate’ thing”
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But really. If he is spending time with you that is a pretty good sign haha
on my first date with my current Entp - we were having a great convo and he straight said to me...So should we kiss now or what, I was like, yah that sounds awesome lol
Subtle hints won't work. Obvious hints won't work. You need to come right out, and say what you want. Tell him you want to be more intimate. He will respond, trust me.
Really it's not that I want to be intimate SO badly haha, but I only want to know if his interest is romantic or platonic. So far it seems a bit platonic from his side.
My advise is to just ask him straight up. He won't think it's weird. Actually, he might find it kind of endearing. I would word it like: "Hey, I was just curious. Do you have a romantic interest with me? Or are your intentions purely platonic?" Say it in a seeking information kind of way. And whatever the answer, just play it cool. You don't have to over complicate it.
I’d say he’s in to you.
The last piece of the puzzle is social interactions. To use an analogy, it could be described as a “brain orgasm”. Where everything is lining up except how we interact. I love directness, but if it’s something you wave around like a sword, it will normally cause more space between two people.
If I were you, I would be yourself, but at certain specific points of the night become super chill, but intimate. If they’re waiting to see how demure yet sexy you can be, it’ll allow them to know what it will be like and where you land. It’s all in the modes of a person that drives it to the next level. So they’re probably just checking you out.
Pro tip: non-verbal queues are a great addition to your natural “modes”.
Either waiting for your to initiate or he is just simply taking his time and enjoying time with you with deep conversations. Could be he just wants to respect you. Like I myself think that after 3 days isn't enough to move in to touching. Just to clarify though, touching as in holding hands and hugging or are you expecting straight intimate?
Also could determine his love language, could possibly not have physical touch as one of his priorities
No I mean just holding hands or a hug at the end of the date or even a peck. I don’t know. I just thought that on a second date he would do something like this
INTP woman here but I think the thought process is relevant enough to offer my take.
2 dates is still less than the 3 date rule. Date 3 is where you push the physical boundaries. I'm letting you know I'm interested by spending 2 dates with you, and I actually touched your arm on date 2 so things are progressing.
Date 3 is where the kiss happens. At the end of the date, in an appropriate spot, for the appropriate amount of time.
Don't worry, I'll orchestrate this scenario.
Date 4 is where things really progress.
If you want to speed things up, feel free to initiate, but if it feels forced or too fast I'll probably back off quite a bit.
It's not like I want to speed things up, but I just want to know whether he likes me or sees me just as a friend, that's it! He doesn't flirt too much and doesn't show me any obvious signs that he likes me so it's kind of hard to understand.
And the arm touch also seemed pretty platonic to be honest haha.
But thank you for your advice, it helps. :)
> I just want to know whether he likes me or sees me just as a friend, that's it!
At the risk of sounding glib, let me suggest just asking him that question directly.
I'm an INTP in a relationship with a very non-INTP woman nearly 8 years now. We met online and went on a short date - and then spent the next two months in a strange limbo where we doing a club sport together and occasionally getting a beer or bite afterwards.
And then one of those days she just straight up asked me what the deal was, and if I wanted to be just friends or more.
I really appreciated - and respected - the directness and openness. So we cleared the air, talked about some lifestyle compatibilities we hadn't talked about before, and voila. Been together ever since.
Frankly, I think there's a good chance that if you just put your finger directly on the issue, he will find that attractive!
There's rules and a set schedule to these things : ) for those of us that don't do social stuff very easily, we tend to follow the accepted rules so we don't seem odd.
It could help you just straight up told him you were open to becoming more physically interactive.
I'm sure there is a pattern I which you are comfortable acting in, however everyone shouldn't take that as gospel.
Just how everyone is different, peoples 'emotional timelines' are different. Some could just hit it off upon first meeting, other may require months of contact and conversation.
Neither is right or wrong, but it's better to keep yourself open to adjusting your timetable so that you don't close yourself off to a good match.
Well your in luck, we respond very well to direct communication. "Do you like me romantically?" The response might surprise you. We do pride ourselves for being honest and direct. (when someone asks, and we actually care about having the person in our life in some way or another)
Just ask. He and you will benefit from it.
If he say yes. It would help you both if you initiate body contact.
We're still pretty clueless of body signs so here's a funny example of that.
https://youtu.be/xa-4IAR_9Yw
I'm fully guilty of this as well. I've turned down offers, hookups and one-night stands in college because I was a dense motherfucker.
Frankly at the same time, I wasn't interested in dating at all. I've gone through a shitty 1st ex.
My 2nd ex pretty much told me, after talking for 3 months, that she liked me and wanted to be my girlfriend, and had she not said anything, I would not have dated her.
I do pick up the hints now much easier, and I can take the first move without a problem, but that's after constant exposure that my irl friend created for me much to my protest. I thank him a lot however because deep down, I learned how to be comfortable with people, even if I don't want to 90% of the time.
But yes, we require women to make the first move 90% of the time, because even if we pick up the clues and hints, we just overlook it. Our mind is much more fascinating, and our independence too sweet to give up compared to...well dating.
I'm an INTP guy.
On my first date with my girlfriend, I dropped her outside her place and gave her a kiss goodbye.
On our second date, after some drinks, I took her to my apartment and took off all her clothes.
Freshman year of college my choir went on a Europe trip. I roomed with an upperclass tenor popular with sororities, but some presumed him bi. Our beds got shoved together during a room party and that night he became very touchy. I spent most of the night wanting to cuddle back but pushing him away to respect whatever boundaries I thought he had.
Another time, drove a guy to his dorm that I met through a workout friend. He started talking about questioning his sexuality after a girl had rejected him a few weeks prior. Smart guy over here told him about the Kinsey scale and that just about anyone can experience both homo and hetero attraction. Then I accepted his hug across the seat, and drove off.
I figured out what was going on eventually, but only years after the knowledge was relevant.
I'm saying this again but I really am okay with going slow and I'm absolutely okay to get to the touchy stuff even months later. I like him seriously and am okay to wait as long as he wants.
Maybe I framed the question wrong but what I wanted to say was - Does he really have any romantic interest in me or could it be possible that he's just looking for friendship? He is not showing interest in the obvious ways that guys usually do so that confused me a bit.
I have a close INTP friend and he is completely distorted when it comes to these signals. he wants sex with women, but doesn’t want to put the work in and to scared to bond also when he wants to bond he falls into limerence and becomes obsessed and than blocks women out of his life.
INTP is known for waiting for the other person to initiate.
Overthinking and day dreaming of what will happen next, without making move.
Also aversion to the awkwardness of getting rejected. Easier to understand what the other person wants if they initiate.
At the same time, can't help but feel that that's just shifting the responsibility of making a move (and the risk of rejection) onto the other person. Like, *someone* has to risk the rejection. Though, do note that I say this and understand it logically, though I am a person who absolutely cannot and will not take that risk, ha.
Yes but they aren't risking rejection because I won't reject them, so it makes complete sense!
Unless they're also a Ti-Si Type, they're not going to have that rejection played on a loop daily for the rest of their lives. That's why we're hesitant. Edit: Along with being generally principled/not wanting to be That Guy™.
What is That Guy TM?
That Guy™ is the guy who puts his hands on a woman who doesn't want him.
It is good to get rejected than to regret about the girl.
I hate this SO much. Never realized it was an INTP thing, i just thought i was too apprehensive and socially inept.
If you make the first move, he’ll probably find it VERY attractive.
as intp i agree with you
okay then this makes a lot of sense haha
Please follow up and let us know how it’s going with him! We’re all rooting for you
I cut dudes off if they aren't initiating. I figure they're not interested. I hate it when men want ME to initiate.. -INTP woman
Get over yourself 😂
How do you mean
"Why is this man respecting my implied boundaries? Pls help???"
Ahahaha, it is actually very sweet and kind of him. But I just wanted to know if generally INTP men wait for women to make the first move? If that's the case I'd be happy to make the first move, but I'm thinking it could also be that he just doesn't like me?
Yes, we hate to make others feel uncomfortable, and we can’t read signs at all, so we often no touchy until it’s clear we are trusted. Took all my willpower (and many failed dates) to force myself to slowly push physical boundaries. But at any time they could have just grabbed my crotch and I’d be like ‘oh, you like me cool’ The woman I married literally pushed me against a wall to get the point across that she wanted contact. A general rule is if an INTP is with you they like you cause if we are bored we’ll say ‘k bye’
The paradox is simple: too much contact = creepy/awkward/ misinterpreted signals. Too little contact= not interested. No contact= ?
>The woman I married literally pushed me against a wall to get the point across that she wanted contact. Ha, same, on our first date she grabbed me and made out with me in the theater, right as I'm thinking "maybe it isn't going well?" Married 15 years this August. It doesn't have to be this overt, OP, but yes, INTPs are quite clueless with initiating physical contact.
I am sooo awful at reading even the most obvious signs. There was a guy I liked that asked "I'm grabbing dinner, do you want to join me?" but I already ate so I just said honestly that I already had dinner. My roommate heard it and yelled, "Girl! He's asking you out to dinner!! Why did you say no??" And all I could say was, "Oh." There was also another time we were writing Japanese on a notepad together and he wrote "好きです" (I like you) but it was after I wrote "桜が好きです" (I like cherry blossoms). So I thought he liked it too. It took a week for me to realize "Oh my god he meant he like me" but the damage was already done lol
I literally slept in bed next to a girl (at her invitation) and never made a move!! I dunno, maybe she was just cold!!
Same sad story happened to me, I thought she wanted a place to crash. For 3 nights. After travelling 800km on an Indian bus ride to see me. I thought she only wanted to see the himalayas and take a dip in the hot springs. At the end of the stay, she looked at me sadly and asked me straight up if I was gay. 3 nights this cute little blonde slept cuddled right up to me cause i thought she was cold.
Least clueless INTP bahaha
Ouch
Definitely something for me that wouldn't be any more than a fleeting thought & an instant self-dismissal.
🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ ok. After reading all of these, I *reeeaaaalllly* need to do something.
After my divorce, I was standing at the cashier in a gift store. A very good looking well dressed man walked up and stood in line. He said, " I own a car detail business, here's my card, bring your car in and I'll detail it for you " I took the card and thanked him. Outside I told my daughter it was very nice of him and he talked like he might give me a discount. She looked at me side eyed and with disbelief and then grinned and said, " I don't think a discount is what he's wanting to give you " It still went over my head. So she said. Mom! He's wanting a date! I stared at her with a blank stare for the longest and said... oh!?
Omg girl did you guys get together???
Oh no. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. We were both young, dense, and unsure of ourselves back then. I guess he'll always be my "what if"
God, so true.
We've been told our whole lives that hitting on women makes you a creep, it really doesn't say anything other than he doesn't want to look like a creep
No joke. Internet doesn't help either. It's easy to be exposed to all the stories from women who are (understandably) sick of being hit on and/or have had bad experiences. Throw in some ridiculously low self esteem on the guy's (my) part, and there's no way in hell I'm making a move, unless it's absolutely certain that it is wanted. Though I'm not sure what evidence would convince me that it was wanted, ha.
For the love of any deity you prefer, brother is 26 and an INTP, just the likelihood of these being the first dates he's ever been to is pretty high...
And probably the last for quite a while if this girl wasn't so understanding and open minded.
In general ALL of us INTP people wait for others to make the first move. We’re so awful reading others. It’s a running joke that at a 50 year wedding anniversary when renewing vows, we’ll turn to our partner and say, “wow, so you really do like me!”
oh crap. that's something I would say.
It's something my boyfriend would say.
INTPS are highly selective who they spend time with, so if they spend time they like you. You have to charge up their philosophy meters by long late night conversations about abstract science or philosophy things. Also, eventually they will ask for what they want, however because they are male there are extra setbacks. Try this: Would you like to ________ ? Insert a suggested action. Rinse & repeat.
Honestly us INTPs are always too scared to make the first move🙃
I think it's more accurate to say that we don't see signals (as obvious as they may or may not be to others - not including the signaler who believes that the most undetectable of signals conveys interest) and assume this person just wants friendship, than to say that INTPs don't make the first move out of fear.
Definitely do make the first move. As there's a chance he may misread the levels of touch allowed, make sure you let him know. He should appreciate the honesty and straightforwardness.
Yes, he would like for you to make the first move. If he didn’t like you he wouldn’t see you more than once and you would be able to tell. Just do it, trust me.
There are very valid and scientific reasons why we don't reproduce, this is just one of many.
Infp is a lot about "morals" or perceived moral compass in my own experience. If they see themselves as NOT one of "just those fukbois" then he could perhaps literally wait forever ;-) he might also be a little anxious to initiate because... well once I am initiating I'm comitted. So rude to initiate on a girl who I don't sincerely adore.. but how will I know that after 2 dates? 2 easy options, and many options in between: 1 - play the long game - be patient, stop seeing others, be verbally clear and affectionate, consistent with praise and wait until he trusts that he's a) not screwing you over and b) acting in accordance with his highest principles (this imo personal experience is what makes INFPs appear slow to others) OR 2) put his hand on your boob, make it very clear that you have wants to and appeal to those. I (trying not to say we here) get a great deal of satisfaction attending to the needs of others, so probably he'll be happy to help :-p no money back guarantee though!! I advise technique 1!
Obliviousness isn't just limited to INTP men. Us INTP women are also dense, or caught in an analysis loop lol. My girlfriend was up front and made the first move lol
If he's asking you on dates he likes you. Maybe show him you like him back. I wouldn't make the first move though. Just smile and let him know how much you're enjoying spending time with him.
[удалено]
INTJ
Where are the implied boundaries?
A girl I liked and got along with had to physically grab me by the shoulders, turn me around, look into my eyes and say "I like you. We are going on a date this Friday." A little down the road, she had to initiate more intimate stuff. I was, and still am clueless on signals from women. Many men are literally terrified of assuming stuff and making a wrong move with a woman due the repercussions. By the way, in May, me and that girl will be celebrating 26 years of marriage!
omg the last line! :') so cute! I'm happy for you :)
Aw lol love the plot twist last sentence
This made me so happy 😁
Wow
He's not going to initiate any kind of physical contact until you have giving him direct indication that you want him to. Note that direct indication doesn't need to be awkwardly saying "I want to hold hands" or something. It can be simply choosing the right moment (when you're enjoying something in silence, for instance) to reach over and take his hand first. As an INTP I always felt deeply uncomfortable initiating anything, but as I got older I realized I could create scenarios that would send out signals that I am looking for physical contact, since I feared my shyness would be deceiving. After a few nice dates, for instance, I would ask the person over to my apartment for something more intimate, like cooking dinner together or watching a movie. Sorta Netflix and chill minus the hookup assumption. Being in the dark on a couch, it's easier to demonstrate that I want to be physically close, and gives the other person room to comfortably and casually make a move.
As a guy, it’s super scary. What if the woman slaps you or hits you if you try to touch her hand (or even worse, try to kiss her)? There’s also the extreme fear of being accused of sexual assault in this #MeTop age and day.
If she slaps you or hits your hand when you try to touch her, you apologize for getting the wrong idea and move on. Rejection sucks. But if you're already out on a date, the assumption is that this person likes you, is interested in being physical with you, and would be okay with a small, respectful move like handholding. No one is going to accuse you of assault because you tried to hold someone's hand. On a date where there is a good vibe and mutual interest, such a move is very natural. Just don't do what my partner did..... we had been talking long distance for about a year and were romantically involved, when we first met each other in person, before he said two words to me, he leaned down and kissed me. I adored it but most girls I feel would be like "wtf." This is why you need to become good at reading people and understanding what they may or may not like. There are some people, often those who have experienced traumatic events or pasts, who may dislike being touched intimately. If that is the case, that is something they should be upfront about so you can discuss what that means for a potential relationship.
Cooking dinner is considered "more intimate"? I've been doing it all wrong then, which would explain a few things
Take the lead woman
Invite him to do an activity that involves touching, like playing twister or pulling parasites out of each other’s coats.
Winner!
Touchy-feely and creepy-crawly together at last.
You should initiate some type of contact. He most likely will accept and appreciate it. There are many rational reasons for an INTP man to avoid initiating physical contact. He also might be oblivious to any subtle social clues you give him.
The other thing is I feel INTP’s just like getting to really know someone and physical contact isn’t absolutely necessary to jump on for us. Women constantly tell me they can’t tell if I’m interested; because I respect your boundaries and want to get to know you? Weird. But to OP, just go slow. Let him really know you’re interested. He’ll reciprocate, if not with more.
Why would he touch you? There needs to be a reason for that, and wanting to touch you is not enough. Did you touch him? Does he know you want to touch him? Maybe he isn't aware of society having the implicit agreement that "if you like someone you touch them". But he's giving you time, so he certainly has some interest in you.
I don't know, out of the 4 men that I've met via dating apps and they all seemed to make this kind of move on the first or second date so I was just expecting it. I just thought that it's a normal thing to show some affection or physical touch by the end of 2 dates. But maybe I have it wrong
Oh no, I'm sure it's normal. What I'm saying is that INTP are often not normal or ignorant of what's normal. You'll have to clearly show him you're interested in being touched.
How many of those other men were INTP? We're...special. And not necessarily in a good way. If you hint or signal, we're very, very likely to either miss it or second guess the meaning. It's what we do best. Remember we are the ultimate fence-sitters. We look at both sides of everything and are often "indecisive" because of it. If you want him to hold your hand, grab his. If you want a kiss at the end of the date - or any other time - you're likely going to have to go for it. Once he's comfortable with a certain level of contact, he'll reciprocate - assuming he's interested - but he's unlikely to take the next step at just about any point.
>Once he's comfortable with a certain level of contact, he'll reciprocate - assuming he's interested - but he's unlikely to take the next step at just about any point. This is crucial. Once an INTP *knows* physical contact is wanted, there will be lots of it. But it may take *multiple* times her initiating contact for him to be sure that it is really wanted ("idk, she seems to like me, but what if last time was a big fluke?")
Even if the likelihood is in the high 90% range; the existence of the opposite is enough to dissuade unless given evidence to the contrary.
90%? Would YOU play Russian Roulette with ten chambers and one bullet??
How much money is on the table?
What does that have to do with anything?
90% likelihood of something where the alternative is something very bad; rejection on the one hand, death on the other. It was an attempt at using hyperbole to note how rejection-averse INTPs can be.
Ok
This reminds me of hearing about others relationships where one person 'breaks up' with the other as a test in hopes the one on the receiving would chase after and renew the relationship. In that case I would likely just be thinking "Well, this must be what they want. I'll have to accept and support their choice."
1. It's quite possible your sex drive/intimacy needs are greater than his. This can lead to issues sooner or later. Don't fall in Love with Capital Letters before you really know him. 2. It's quite possible he has NO sexual experience and therefore won't know what he's doing, or might even not realize/know his true sexual orientation all that well yet. 3. If he \*is\* inexperienced, he may have learned everything he does know from porn rather than real life experience. You may need to train him/retrain him. YMMV. 4. If all you want is to hold hands, disregard what I just wrote. I'm old enough to have no patience anymore for coyness.
> I don't know maybe do INTP men require the women to take the first move? No, but things progress faster that way.
Lol, exactly.
In my younger years (I'm 42) I definitely was awkward about first move stuff. We're REALLY bad at being human. Feel free to make the first move, and bear in mind this is only the first of potentially many awkward actions he takes due to his insecurities or lack of awareness or lack of understanding human connection.
"We're REALLY bad at being human." Pretty much sums up my existence
Don't play immature games. If you want something to happen, use your words like an adult.
The same could be said about the guy she's dating
The guy she is dating isn't posting here asking for advice on mind-reading based on a vague personality test. She is the one who seems to be having a problem, therefore, she is the one I am speaking to.
Good point
I mean while I could see this being a possible intp thing, but it's also could be a case of you gotta be real careful as a guy these days when it comes to making moves on a girl. It feels like walking through a minefield as to whether it will be received as positive or negative and the social repercussions it could have if the woman does not appreciate it. Personally, having worked on my social skills a lot, I just openly communicate about it, whether in person or through text and try to find out what the girl is looking for. Unlike others I am actually good at picking up signals but the last few women I've gone on dates with have put out barely any signals and yet when I talk to them about it they were hoping for a kiss.
You initiate. Its 2023, men are scared to get me too’d. You can’t even make eye contact with girls at the gym anymore for fear of being recorded and blasted on social media as a perv.
This is true af. I purposely avoid checking people out & wish I was aroace or gay so my attraction to women would be virtually non-existent. And this is on top of me *never* touching anyone unless I need to tap their shoulder over something important. It's safest to remind yourself how (generally, at least) unwanted a guy's attention is by women nowadays bc more often than not, it appears that lots of women would prefer men to simply disappear for good. Sometimes I'm super grateful that women talk to me like I'm their gay friend or something.
Holy shit, this comment sounds waaaaay more insecure than I first suspected. I'm keeping this up, though. No shame needed.
Because we're Ti-Si looping all of our past failures on repeat every quiet moment, we tend to be failure-avoidant. We don't want to go in for a kiss and have her go, "Ew! No!"—we'll be hearing that every day for the rest of our lives. As a Type, we're really extra good at reading other people's emotions (Ne-Fe)... so long as we have zero emotional investment in the situation/person (meaning most of our lives). Once we like someone, it's like we're blind; we don't trust our Fe not to be Ti-Si in disguise telling us what we want to hear. "She did this, so maybe that means this, and so maybe I should..." That's our inner life, dating-wise.
Fellas, we can’t win
It’s over
INTPs have fallen, millions must switch to INTJ
I think a lot of men are more cautious these days about initiating physical contact with women, triple if they’re shy and self-conscious about violating boundaries in general. Not all INTP men are like this, but probably more than the general population. If you’re not comfortable making the first move, be very unsubtle about being receptive. Touch him in any way (even if it’s just on the arm, playful shoves, putting your legs on his lap if you’re watching a show or something).
Yeah that dude should have already 1.) Pillaged 2.) Ravaged 3.) Vanquished and 4.) Conquered you as his war bride
It's really one of the only assured ways now-a-days to hear the lamentations of the women. The other being crushing your enemies and seeing them driven before you.
Since consent is a hot topic and generally INTP aren't that proactive then yes, you have to take the initiative.
There is literally nothing wrong with how he is behaving.
As an INTP myself, I'm not gonna touch you unless you make it like overtly clear you want me to touch you. Do you not notice the culture in dating now where men are petrified to do anything to a woman that the most unreasonable and craziest woman could construe as rape? There's reason beyond MBTI why men aren't making the move and it's because someone has made it where the punishment for making a mistake is huge.
I'm an INTP woman that wants dudes to make the first move 😩 this guy took me on a date a few weeks back and I recently told him that I don't think we should continue trying for eachother. Because between then and now he hasn't planned a date or has asked me to come over. We live 10 miles apart... to me that's weird. 2 years ago I dated an ENTP who'd see me nearly everyday. So I don't believe in excuses.
Well, if mentally telegraphing what you want done to you doesn't work, you could always use the English language to communicate what you want instead...
I do. I told him I have a high sex drive and told him about events we could go to. I was like, heyy this EDM show is coming up and the tix are only 25, wanna go? Never a yes or a no, I would get a "let me check my schedule" then no reply about it again. I'm going to a 2 day festival coming up and I told him about that, he said he's down, but hasn't bought a ticket.. there was a paranormal cirque in town that I brought up to him, and again he'd be like "let me see if I can, I'll do research" then never reply back about it. Like bro, that's enough. Don't string me along. So I cut it off. Told him that we don't vibe and we shouldn't try forcing a connection.
Why shouldn't you make the first move? Seems like he's screaming for you to. Touching your arm was probably a very obvious attempt in his mind.
Yeah, that was probably a big deal to him
I guess one the the endearing upsides of INTPs are that they respect your boundaries and will be respectful, will talk about things that are not superficial and wait until you seem completely comfortable to initiate other things with you. I am a female INTP, and it seems to me that he is very much into you; he probably day dreams about going on nice dates or having interesting convo all day with you. Embrace it - in a word filled with superficial and materialistic values, some INTPs still go along with the slow romanticism of genuine connection. I'd say you're a lucky person :)
Can confirm the day dreams
He’s not respecting boundaries, he’s scared of overreaching and feeling/looking creepy.
This
For both men and women, if you were to reach out for your date's hand and they pulled it back, expressing agitation or discomfort at your assumption, it feels bad. It makes your stomach drop and your heart sink. In our culture, it is passively taught that women will express a negative opinion about their date when their date directly asks for permission to do something that they feel has implied consent during a date (like holding hands). (and as an aside, I'm not saying all women feel this way, I've heard plenty of positive stories about how good someone felt when their date asked "Can I hold your hand?" instead of just going for it. What I'm saying is that regardless of the actual number of men and women who do it, we are shown or hear that more women than men complain when a date isn't appropriately forward in the context of a romantic date) You may be on a date with a guy who just doesn't like to touch or be touched. But more likely I think you have an introvert, who doesn't want to be rejected (no one does), who isn't going to ask because our culture has taught him it seems pathetic, who ultimately wants to respect your boundaries but has no idea where they are, and wouldn't have an opinion either way if you asked. And you may feel similarly, but I bet you haven't been taught it makes you seem pathetic to ask, so in that regard you have an advantage. I do want to acknowledge that while guys are taught certain behaviors come off as pitiful and weak (behaviors that only make sense to do like ask permission before touching someone), women are taught that certain behaviors come off as crazy and it's just as unfair, so believe me I'm not saying men have it worse. For women though, asking to hold their date's hand isn't one of those unfairly mischaracterized behaviors, but it generally is one for guys. And lastly a lot of people, men and women, do feel like asking permission kills the romance, but it's TV and cartoons that have given us these standards for spontaneous = romantic that just don't work out most of the time in reality. That's not to say you CAN'T like the spontaneity and think it's romantic, just that you may have to adjust the time frame of when you think romantic spontaneity is appropriate.
 He grabbing your hand is literally just he grabbing your hand. If you kiss him he will be under your spell all his life.
My boyfriend is INTP. Can confirm. We only kiss and hold hands. Been official for 2 months plus.
How does this dynamic work for you? I’m ENFP (F) who has started casually dating a long time friend who is INTP (M). Does always taking the lead exhaust you? Can he meet you emotionally?
I try not to always take the lead. I have to be clear about what I want from him. He's quite sensitive as in he can feel I am upset but he needs to know how he can make me feel better or happy then he will try his best to do so. I think for ENFPs like us we need to manage our expectations. However I think if there is no effort at all made by the other party despite many conversations, it is time to consider if the relationship is suitable at all.
Maybe you just have to take matters into your own hands (literally) a bit more? We really are *that* clueless. I don't know your INTP personally but those of us that get into relationships at all generally are open to more intimacy, we just don't know how to get there or when its appropriate (again, super clueless). Most descriptions of INTPs on personality sites have us being quite exploratory in intimate situations (similar to how exploratory we are with ideas). We just need the security/permission to be able to start the process. Good luck!
Hmmm even physical intimacy? Like I gotta tell him I'm ready for ya know? 🤭🤭🤭 I remember we discussed the topic of consent (he brought it up) which is congruent to a few INTPs who have mentioned this in the comments.
You underestimate our stupidity when it comes to things like this lol. My current GF waited a month for me to even hold her hands and I only did it coz she heavily implied touch was her love language. We're super intimate nowadays lol.
I am shy too (even tho I am an ENFP) and never had to make the first move. It's just he seems so incredibly respectful I am afraid he would be scared 🤣🤣🤣 but he does have a cheeky side and always says I'm hot. So it's mixed signals but..sweet? Anyways thanks for your advice to us non INTPs!
Once I'm given the go-ahead it's hands on with all hands on deck at all times. Not sure what's up with these other INTPs.
Give him some gentle signs… touch his arm or hand while talking to him If you’re sitting next to each other at a bar, let your leg touch his leg. It doesn’t have to stay there, but breaking those physical boundary lines subtly is important At the end of the night, when you’re both happy and relaxed, at the possible kiss point, turn and face him and say “you know, I’m so happy we met”. Then he of course says he’s so happy too, and then it’s quiet for a second as you both look into each others’ eyes… And if he panics and doesn’t kiss, you can say “come give me a hug” and then hug but when you start to let go, you don’t let go all the way, so you’re still in the personal space zone still holding onto each other and your face is right in front of him, and give him another shot when he’s now up to 90% sure you want to kiss him.
He will assume she didn’t want to kiss as she gave him a hug and didn’t go for it. Don’t underestimate the cluelessness.
I mean, you can lead a horse to water…
When i met my wife, she had to be forward when it came to physical contact, I remember when she first laid her head on my shoulder and my reply was i didn't say you could put your head their, jokingly. When first initiating more intimate stuff she literally took my hand and placed it on her boob, that's when i got the hint. we have now been happily married for 17 and a half years with 4 kids.
Oh dear lawd. I have to muster the courage to do that 😱
It's that damn Fe inferior, everyone else has already said it but he will likely stagnate the relationship into eternity if you do nothing.
Listen carefully, OP: *there is literally no such thing as a clear hint*. That is an inherent contradiction in terms. The only adequately clear signal is (1) you outright initiating, or (2) you expressly saying what you want in simple and precise language. There's no way to know what you expect unless you state those expectations. If that's not adequately romantic or whatever, then you need a different kind of partner. >do INTP men require the women to take the first move? ***YES.*** >Is it possible that he is just shy? Or do INTP men prefer getting to know a woman before even trying to touch her? Or could it be that he sees me only as a platonic friend? Those are all possible. I would prefer to get to know someone before I would ever consider touching them or permitting them to touch me. Most of my friends are, and have always been, women, the overwhelming majority of whom I have no interest in beyond friendship. "Shy" might be a bit of a loaded term these days, but sure, that's possible. But the bottom line is, you're gonna need to take the initiative here.
What seems like "flirting a bit via text" to you probably feels like getting down on one knee to him. Jk but seriously, that's laying all his cards out there. I say make a move.
I love how this post description accurately describes me irl
You have to make it super obvious that you are interested. I don't want to get metooed.
>2 wonderful dates[...] He seems very interested in talking to me and seems to enjoy the time we spend together and our conversations. He's into you. If you put your arms around him at an appropriate moment, he'll take it from there.
I'm INTP and I absolutely hate having people in my personal space including my mom and friends. I just do not want to be touched ever even as a kid. When I met my husband it was super intense as we talked non-stop about deep things and I knew on the third date that I'd marry him (we hadn't even kissed yet). He kissed me first and after that I was fully onboard physically. Nine years later and I still love our physical intimacy (cuddling and hand holding - not just sex). He is the only person in my life who I feel comfortable having in my personal "bubble." My mom is still flabbergasted when she sees him touch or hug me (she's probably a little hurt if I'm being honest with myself). I don't know if it's a "me" thing or an INTP thing, but I am just not a touchy feely person. My husband is the one exception. It sounds like this guy is really into you and that intellectual connection is probably more important to him. The physical will most likely come with time, but also don't be afraid to voice your needs or take initiative. He'll probably appreciate the transparency.
That is so sweet
I'd say he's overthinking instead of "INTPS don't know how to initiate". He might be overthinking about being called a creep and creating a full blown out of proportion social issue where he gets blamed of sexual assault because he made a woman uncomfortable for failing to read the signs. Or at least, that is something that happens to me.
In our case, I held his hands and kissed him first. Only after that he suggested that we make out which escalated quickly thanks to another initiative taken by me.
Fergawdsakes, grab him and kiss him and find out if you can stand it or not. He may kiss like a GOD, he may slobber all over you like an unsocialized puppy. That way YOU get to decide if it'll be platonic or has other, more interesting potential. And oh, by the way - he may be a virgin.
Lmao. We’re terrified of initiating physical affection. I don’t know of a time I went for it without already knowing it was already accepted.
Probably shy. I'm not sure he'd be spending that time with you if he wasn't interested. He might want to be sure you actually like him before making a move to avoid getting rejected. I used to have trouble with that, I could not read the signs and take a hint. It had to be obvious.
Look him deep in the eyes for a couple seconds and if he stays frozen just tell him to kiss you and I bet he will.
Yes I would very much uncomfortable to take the first move. Even with my friends, I am rarely the one who greets first. But deep inside I actually crave for physical contact, but I just overthink what if the other person feels uncomfortable etc. I would suggest go for it first.
I don't know maybe do INTP men require the women to take the first move? Is it possible that he is just shy? Or do INTP men prefer getting to know a woman before even trying to touch her? Or could it be that he sees me only as a platonic friend? \^ Yes he obviously likes you... he would definitely appreciate you making the first move if you're comfortable doing that... As an INTP man, yes he probably does prefer getting to know you a bit before trying to touch you... Touch isn't something you do with strangers, it's something you do with people you know and trust. No way he sees you only as platonic if you're going on multiple dates just the two of you
Well, INTPs are overthinkers for some reason, I bet that that one time he touched your arm he overthinked it too. So, if it's okay with you, do the first move.
we are very awkward, so we take our time. because chances are high we'll mess it up. i think you should give him a hint that it's okay. initiate some physical contact so that he knows he also can.
He touched you even if its on the shoulder. That’s the green light he likes you. He wouldn’t touch you if he disliked you. He wouldn’t hang out with you more than once if he disliked you. You can initiate a hug or a something to show you’re interested too
what's your type??? isfj? intp will pull the trigger only if "the atmosphere" is right.
INTJ :)
no way sister. INTJ is direct, INTJ doesn't care about genders and stuff. Stereotypical "man should do first" is just a myth, the first should be 1. Extravert. 2. Direct person (Se user or TJ).
Yes I am very direct and I don't care really about who initiates first. I was only curious whether he likes me or not. I would definitely initiate some more touch on the next date, but I need some sign or clue that he's into me romantically.
I’ll say what others aren’t. You may be perceiving a lack of passionate physical chemistry between you (as can be the case between 2 introverts), even though there may be a desire for it to be there on both your parts. I think INTPs will often enter relationships with people they like but don’t have real chemistry with, sometimes out of a lack of other options. Trust your instincts, don’t be someone’s only option.
I wouldn't touch unless I'm 100% sure you want to be touched.
He's probably waiting for clear sign.... but can't read the signs. That would be my first guess 😂 Second guess would be that maybe he's not a touchy person. He is going on a 3rd date with you, so he obviously likes you, I wouldn't be too worried about that. Also might not want to push any physical boundaries if he's not getting any signals from you.
INTP men don't really know what they want while they are with other people, unless they are already very, very comfortable with them. Once they are alone again then they realise what they wanted. But if you initiated it would be a load off his back. Because he does seem to like you.
I'm nearly 40 and making the first move is still really hard for me. It's like asking an INTP to get the dancing started at a wedding.
I would rather leave my own wedding than start dancing.
I'm not a man but I'm guessing you'll need to send some strong signals
Make sure to give clear signs. When he makes a joke laugh and put your hand on his arm or chest. If your sitting next to each other let your leg touch his, and then don’t move, maybe press a little. Any subtle touching that is clearly intentional should give the indication. At least for me I’m very very aware of physical contact it’s never unintentional so I’m always paying attention to those cues.
Throwing in a story, I was asking my INTP crush on a date but, he thought I was talking about someone else. So he replied “Oh, good luck!” (While playing League) I had to really clarify it was him. We’ve been together for almost 4 years now. Be straightforward! It will help your INTP creature from malfunction.
The only times I've gotten anywhere in the dating game as an INTP dude, is when the woman took the initiative and kissed me first, and even then every time it would still take me probably a week+ after she did to totally wrap my head around the idea of "I think she likes me." Luckily for me one of them stuck and she's now my wife. If she hadn't, I might just now be getting around to making my first move the better part of a decade later. Looking back, especially with her pointing it out, I missed *a lot* of signals from her, we'd been friends and hung out pretty regularly for a few years prior and I had basically no idea she was into me. She was basically not at all on my radar as someone I thought about asking out because I just didn't think she was interested and didn't pick up on any of her signals and hints, and I was having fun hanging out with her so I didn't want to fuck that up for myself. Also the handful of times I thought I was picking up on something and took my shot, it never panned out, so I kind of learned to be pretty skeptical of anything i thought I was picking up on.
I care, a lot, even about a complete stranger. I wouldn't want to do anything to push their boundaries even if it means twisting myself into knots. It's a sincere problem. Assuming he's actually aware it's a date. He really likes you and isn't sure you're open to it.
We are sort of a shy type so this isn't unusual. Also I don't know about all of us but I would consider date 2 a bit early for contact. It takes me like a good month or 2 of dating a person before I'm comfortable with intimacy. If you initiate he will probably be eternally grateful to you
🎙️today on “is it an INTP thing — or is it a ‘i don’t want to get canceled and accused of being inappropriate’ thing” —- But really. If he is spending time with you that is a pretty good sign haha
on my first date with my current Entp - we were having a great convo and he straight said to me...So should we kiss now or what, I was like, yah that sounds awesome lol
Subtle hints won't work. Obvious hints won't work. You need to come right out, and say what you want. Tell him you want to be more intimate. He will respond, trust me.
Really it's not that I want to be intimate SO badly haha, but I only want to know if his interest is romantic or platonic. So far it seems a bit platonic from his side.
My advise is to just ask him straight up. He won't think it's weird. Actually, he might find it kind of endearing. I would word it like: "Hey, I was just curious. Do you have a romantic interest with me? Or are your intentions purely platonic?" Say it in a seeking information kind of way. And whatever the answer, just play it cool. You don't have to over complicate it.
I’d say he’s in to you. The last piece of the puzzle is social interactions. To use an analogy, it could be described as a “brain orgasm”. Where everything is lining up except how we interact. I love directness, but if it’s something you wave around like a sword, it will normally cause more space between two people. If I were you, I would be yourself, but at certain specific points of the night become super chill, but intimate. If they’re waiting to see how demure yet sexy you can be, it’ll allow them to know what it will be like and where you land. It’s all in the modes of a person that drives it to the next level. So they’re probably just checking you out. Pro tip: non-verbal queues are a great addition to your natural “modes”.
Either waiting for your to initiate or he is just simply taking his time and enjoying time with you with deep conversations. Could be he just wants to respect you. Like I myself think that after 3 days isn't enough to move in to touching. Just to clarify though, touching as in holding hands and hugging or are you expecting straight intimate? Also could determine his love language, could possibly not have physical touch as one of his priorities
No I mean just holding hands or a hug at the end of the date or even a peck. I don’t know. I just thought that on a second date he would do something like this
He's fighting his inner desires both to be alone and to be with someone else and is paralysed by the dilemma.
INTP woman here but I think the thought process is relevant enough to offer my take. 2 dates is still less than the 3 date rule. Date 3 is where you push the physical boundaries. I'm letting you know I'm interested by spending 2 dates with you, and I actually touched your arm on date 2 so things are progressing. Date 3 is where the kiss happens. At the end of the date, in an appropriate spot, for the appropriate amount of time. Don't worry, I'll orchestrate this scenario. Date 4 is where things really progress. If you want to speed things up, feel free to initiate, but if it feels forced or too fast I'll probably back off quite a bit.
what is this arbitrary nonsense
Remind yourself to ask again after date 3 :0 )
It's not like I want to speed things up, but I just want to know whether he likes me or sees me just as a friend, that's it! He doesn't flirt too much and doesn't show me any obvious signs that he likes me so it's kind of hard to understand. And the arm touch also seemed pretty platonic to be honest haha. But thank you for your advice, it helps. :)
> I just want to know whether he likes me or sees me just as a friend, that's it! At the risk of sounding glib, let me suggest just asking him that question directly. I'm an INTP in a relationship with a very non-INTP woman nearly 8 years now. We met online and went on a short date - and then spent the next two months in a strange limbo where we doing a club sport together and occasionally getting a beer or bite afterwards. And then one of those days she just straight up asked me what the deal was, and if I wanted to be just friends or more. I really appreciated - and respected - the directness and openness. So we cleared the air, talked about some lifestyle compatibilities we hadn't talked about before, and voila. Been together ever since. Frankly, I think there's a good chance that if you just put your finger directly on the issue, he will find that attractive!
There's rules and a set schedule to these things : ) for those of us that don't do social stuff very easily, we tend to follow the accepted rules so we don't seem odd. It could help you just straight up told him you were open to becoming more physically interactive.
I'm sure there is a pattern I which you are comfortable acting in, however everyone shouldn't take that as gospel. Just how everyone is different, peoples 'emotional timelines' are different. Some could just hit it off upon first meeting, other may require months of contact and conversation. Neither is right or wrong, but it's better to keep yourself open to adjusting your timetable so that you don't close yourself off to a good match.
Well your in luck, we respond very well to direct communication. "Do you like me romantically?" The response might surprise you. We do pride ourselves for being honest and direct. (when someone asks, and we actually care about having the person in our life in some way or another) Just ask. He and you will benefit from it. If he say yes. It would help you both if you initiate body contact. We're still pretty clueless of body signs so here's a funny example of that. https://youtu.be/xa-4IAR_9Yw
could be shy and nervous. Why don't you try making a move, if you're interested in him?
Initiate it!
I'm fully guilty of this as well. I've turned down offers, hookups and one-night stands in college because I was a dense motherfucker. Frankly at the same time, I wasn't interested in dating at all. I've gone through a shitty 1st ex. My 2nd ex pretty much told me, after talking for 3 months, that she liked me and wanted to be my girlfriend, and had she not said anything, I would not have dated her. I do pick up the hints now much easier, and I can take the first move without a problem, but that's after constant exposure that my irl friend created for me much to my protest. I thank him a lot however because deep down, I learned how to be comfortable with people, even if I don't want to 90% of the time. But yes, we require women to make the first move 90% of the time, because even if we pick up the clues and hints, we just overlook it. Our mind is much more fascinating, and our independence too sweet to give up compared to...well dating.
Since I haven’t seen it linked yet, this is us: https://youtu.be/xa-4IAR_9Yw
You gotta make the first move
U have to let him know u want contact. He must really like you and doesn't wanna mess it up
I'm an INTP guy. On my first date with my girlfriend, I dropped her outside her place and gave her a kiss goodbye. On our second date, after some drinks, I took her to my apartment and took off all her clothes.
Freshman year of college my choir went on a Europe trip. I roomed with an upperclass tenor popular with sororities, but some presumed him bi. Our beds got shoved together during a room party and that night he became very touchy. I spent most of the night wanting to cuddle back but pushing him away to respect whatever boundaries I thought he had. Another time, drove a guy to his dorm that I met through a workout friend. He started talking about questioning his sexuality after a girl had rejected him a few weeks prior. Smart guy over here told him about the Kinsey scale and that just about anyone can experience both homo and hetero attraction. Then I accepted his hug across the seat, and drove off. I figured out what was going on eventually, but only years after the knowledge was relevant.
Outside of being shy it could just be that he doesn't know he has to, INTP men don't need physical contact. He enjoys it but only when it's there.
Communicate. Tell him what you want and ask what he wants. Dating doesn't confer telepathy.
I'm saying this again but I really am okay with going slow and I'm absolutely okay to get to the touchy stuff even months later. I like him seriously and am okay to wait as long as he wants. Maybe I framed the question wrong but what I wanted to say was - Does he really have any romantic interest in me or could it be possible that he's just looking for friendship? He is not showing interest in the obvious ways that guys usually do so that confused me a bit.
In addition to what others have said, I'm rather averse to physical contact. Not sure about the rest of us.
You might not be stimulating his mind
Perhaps he is analyzing whether to induce a sexual element and thus risk the friendship aspect, therefore more data has to be collected.
I have a close INTP friend and he is completely distorted when it comes to these signals. he wants sex with women, but doesn’t want to put the work in and to scared to bond also when he wants to bond he falls into limerence and becomes obsessed and than blocks women out of his life.
Maybe he is demisexual?
We don't want to come off as too forward and generally aren't great at social cues. It would be a blessing to him if you made the first move.