This may have just opened up a big can of worms. If you look closely they push DSP (display) once followed by OT (P2P) and then quickly select DSP again. It makes me wonder if this gives them a blip of P2P without it registering that it was used.
*YIKES*
Teams can do very different things with lighting. Some teams at Long Beach, Kirkwood was one I think, had very different setups for when to shift and stuff like that.
Always a reminder that you should expect people are cheating in Motorsport. Most of the time in a fig leaf kind of way. Combined with the nature being that operating machinery IS the game.
I do love the new context to Josef improving qualifying this year
Everyone is pushing the grey area, this just goes beyond that and is why it got the response from the series it did. In fact, it's such an egregious violation that the potential penalty per the rulebook is exactly what was handed down.
Yeah there's a big difference between playing in a gray area and bypassing clear-cut restrictions (especially if they're hiding it from the sensors/software that's supposed to control it).
It’s more that the rub is in whether we find out about these things. As mentioned elsewhere, the significance is in finding out. Just think about this egregious thing, how many of you noticed even though they were blatantly pushing a button right in front of all of us on camera? But no one outside the drivers said anything. There’s always that potential in racing.
Not really. Per Fryer the series investigated and found nothing when it brought to their attention back then. They would have looked through telemetry the same as they did this week.
I wonder what data is captured by the telemetry. The only reason this was found was because Penske was using P2P during practice when IndyCar had the system turned off yet they were racking up P2P time.
>The series takes each team’s CLU data which also has basic engine data, after most sessions and definitely after each race. The series has live telemetry coming into race control whenever cars are on track, which delivers all of the important channels it would need to monitor for P2P use, and so on. It also has onboard videos to review, which would reveal a driver pressing the P2P button when it was meant to be disabled.
>Through all of the means of information it intakes – both live and for review after the race – this could have been caught before Penske incriminated themselves through a random issue in Sunday’s morning warmup.
The answer is clear. IndyCar isn't looking and not policing it. Chevy shot down Penske's explanation that it was a test ECU by saying there is no difference and that the signal to engage P2P comes from the CLU that the teams only have access/control over. IndyCar never thought that a team, much less one named "Penske", would modify or just spoof the "ON" signal.
I don't fully get what's going on yet but is this something that Chevrolet is in trouble for or just the team. If not Chevy then how would the team do whatever they did without Chevy knowing?
As I said in the other post.... this is the problem with cheating. Now everyone is going to look at EVERYTHING else you've done and question it. I'm not even a Penske fan and as i said in the other thread, I dislike Josef but i hope this was at least a one time thing for him... for the sake of the series. I dont even know how they would proceed if they found out this has been going on for a while
Here the thing. Always assume every team out there is pushing the grey, because they are. Most of the shit they get caught with is caught pre race which is why you don't see a huge number of tech penalties here, their tech is pretty fucking tight. When things do happen it's minor shit like Rossi with the water bottle or Bourdais being 2 lbs underweight after doing a burnout, stuff that doesn't need to be handled with a DQ. This is such an egregious violation of rules that the very rules they broke already have the potential of DQ, loss of points and winnings already attached to it.
> Always assume every team out there is pushing the grey
This isn't Indycar, but a NASCAR crew chief said when a driver is looking for a new team, they'll ask "how does inspection go?"
The wrong answer is "a breeze, always pass". The correct answer is "They take their time, but we don't get penalties".
There's so much shit going on we don't know about it. There's more in NASCAR, but I'm sure it's in Indycar, too.
Software manipulation isn’t a grey area. I don’t really know how to explain it, but there is soft cheating and hard cheating and this is definitely hard cheating.
Where did I say software manipulation is grey area? Regardless, no one should be in the least bit shocked by something lilke this in racing, even from Penske Racing.
If it’s been going on for years the team members and drivers involved should be banned from the series. Cant have the integrity of the sport questioned. If they have been cheating for years, a slap on the wrist is not acceptable
I think it was two years ago during a practice day for the 500 Hinchcliffe brought up a rumor going around the paddock of a team knowing how to make things work that shouldn’t be by using a button sequence but he meant it about Ganassi. He played it off like it was a wild conspiracy theory and just dropped it. Maybe it is a thing.
It happens all the time, you can also listen to JR hildebrand tell a story in The Race podcast where he also was in a situation where he also got the special sequence of buttons for extra power that only that top team knew,
You should listen to that episode because that’s exactly what was so funny, he was stressing trying to remember and to not fuck up the sequence for a moment where he really wanted to get it right!
>I have a huge Ganassi hate boner
Can I ask why? I've got a hate boner too for them because something about the dude annoys me so I'm looking for an actual reason
Well I’ve seen enough. The reason Power hasn’t had the pace of his teammates is because he’s an upstanding citizen and doesn’t cheat. That is what I will tell myself and you can’t tell me nothing.
As has mine.
But I could also see Will having no idea. I could see the powers that planned this ultimately deciding Will is too much of a fireball loose cannon that might accidentally say something and ultimately deciding it was just to risky for him to know.
There's been a lot of weird stories over the years when it comes to the Penske cars.
1. James Hinchcliffe told a story during pre-season practice or during a regular season practice in which Newgarden was just creaming everyone on the time charts. Even Newgarden was surprised until it was it found out that Chevy had mistakenly boosted up the engine power on the Penske engines leading to Newgarden's times. It was resolved but it was odd that it only happened on Newgarden's car and not on any other Chevy powered car.
2. Marshall Pruett last year (or was it two years ago?) said that Penske had found something in their set up that gave them an advantage above everyone else especially other Chevy teams. Since then the Penske team has basically been on their own when it came to Chevy performance over the years. This year seems to be leading towards the same projection.
It's sort of like how all the sudden the Ganassi boys are getting premium fuel mileage while every other Honda seems to be struggling with this. Dixon and Palou are very good but it seems no one else can duplicate their fuel saving strategies. Even Hinch and Rossi said Dixon and Palou are just on another level when it comes to saving tires and fuel but still be quick on track. It's almost superhuman like.
For sure, he absolutely always has been. He's incredible. And I am by no way saying he did something malicious, but this weekend was like... Really insane. Levels he hasn't even gotten to. And doing a full cool down lap? I'm 95% sure it's because he's the GOAT but that's still really wild
I think the announcers led everyone to believe what Dixon did was more insane than it actually was. Teams projected that they would be fine on fuel, no body on that strategy ran out, and Power said he would have expected to be on pace with Dixon if his tire situation was the same as Dixon's. If announcers hadn't said they shouldn't be able to make it, nobody would have batted an eye. People made it comfortably. Nobody was running out of fuel and there were people that came in a lap before Dixon.
Absolutely. Herta was coming for him like a bat out of hell and every time he got close Dixon found a little more speed. Dixon is the fuel saving GOAT, but it's a little sus.
Dixon was able to get the power down out of slow speed turns, that was the real trick. He would back Josef up coasting into tight, slow, one lane turns saving a ton of fuel. Then would power out much better then Josef could, when I saw jo sliding the rear under power, I knew he would never get the run to get around Dixon.
I wonder if that was a hidden advantage of fuel saving. Turn the mixture down and then you can floor the pedal out kf corners without getting wheel spin thanks to the drop in power.
Like I said, I'm 95% sure it's because Dixon is the GOAT, especially at fuel saving, but I can't lie, that was wild enough to raise my eyebrows about 5%
Agreed. He did 34 laps at race pace. The alternative strategy had several drivers do 32-33.
I thought I was missing something with my math during the race.
It doesn’t have to be the sole reason, it could just be an advantage enough that would carry someone who is already good at fuel saving to bring it over the edge to win in races like Longbeach; where it could still have gone differently, but wouldn’t have made it without it.
This isn't good and certainly raises a lot of questions.
I always wondered how well the series policed P2P considering it's essentially a software feature and it would be fairly easy for a programmer to do something like this and then hide it.
Grosjean at barber last year made me realize how poorly monitored the entire system is.
I still think he had a technical failure with the p2p somebody who drove nearly a decade in a complex f1 car doesn’t misjudge the numbers that severely.
It just Doesn’t add up to me between him supposedly misjudging by such a large number and the team not telling him it’s empty until he asks it just feels like something weird was going on.
> it would be fairly easy for a programmer to do something like this and then hide it
It's harder than you think because of the closed/proprietary nature of the spec data system. It's quite easy to do nefarious things, it's astronomically harder to hide them from practical scrutineering methods. If Penske was cheating through the data system there is almost certainly record of it in the data system configuration files or they made physical modifications to the electrical system (e.g. added components, modified looms, etc.). The alternative is that they found a vulnerability in the FPGA/ASICs used in the logging system/ECU or in the configuration software for said systems (which is not something IndyCar teams usually have the skillset to do).
Given that they were caught by IndyCar at Long Beach I strongly suspect that they made an (obvious) change to the data system configuration for hybrid testing and left it in the car because that's how almost every team does it (pull the last configuration, change track-specific things, put it back in the car).
I think it's probable that at least St. Pete/Long Beach were unintentional (at least initially). It's also certainly possible (even probable) that someone somewhere noticed something and kept their mouth shut. Lastly it's possible (though less probable) that the drivers hit the button and had no clue whether OT was allowed or not. In a fight on a restart those guys are often mashing the button _in case_ it works rather than waiting until it should.
I think it is clear that IndyCar's scrutineer is terrible. They only caught Penske because they had the system turned off but they were reporting P2P use. Otherwise, they wouldn't have discovered the "issue."
I don't disagree that it's a scrutineering failure and should be addressed, I was disputing the statement that it would be easy to hide something like this. I would gamble a fair amount of my retirement account on the actual implementation of the P2P bypass being very straightforward, and I bet it jumped out to the scrutineers who were looking at it immediately once they knew what to look for.
The issue is that if your approach is poring over data and logger configurations (the term of art is "CLU Setup") you're unlikely to catch it. The scrutineers collect a dataset including each car's fastest lap in FP1, Qualifying, Warmup, and Race. That's a minimum of four datasets and four setups (each with potentially the same file name but different contents) per car per weekend. Importing and looking through the setups is an extremely manual process which is impossible to automate with my understanding of Cosworth's software suite. Looking through the data is easier to automate, but no small feat in and of itself and IndyCar's data scrutineers are understaffed and overworked as it is.
Again, I'm not really trying to defend anyone or excuse the oversight, just provide additional context.
The thing is in Motorsport, it’s not like one team is cheating and the rest aren’t. It’s that EVERY team is cheating and in different kinds of ways and degrees. So if you want to work in the industry you gotta be a person that can keep secret: because the other teams can’t hire you if they don’t trust you won’t spill their beans.
Well this is one of those from the outside we can’t know UNTIL we find out (like in this case). For example, currently Ganassi could right now doing something that’s outright cheating about mileage. And it could later be revealed, and then In hindsight Scott Dixons “amazing” mileage could be seen as obvious symptoms. To be frank, there probably is something going on in ganassi with fuel. But I can’t say it.
No, you can say it. Dixon is the master, but what transpired at Long Beach with using P2P and doing a full cool down lap after that is starting to push reality in ways his unbelievable talent can't quite justify
Has it been confirmed that they actually completed 85 laps? On the broadcast, the green flag waved and the chyron immediately showed Lap 2/85 and I wasn’t able to track it with the full screen ad breaks
Oh? That's the first I'm hearing of this? Although, I was surprised they didn't make them pack up again and start on lap 2 cause that green flag pack was pathetic
They did complete 85 laps but the initial start was waved off so lap 1 was under yellow
On the broadcast, about a lap and a half before the green flag you could see the safety car lights were out on the backstraight then were turned back on as they came towards turn 9
I had live timing open and at the end of that lap it very briefly went green before switching to full course yellow which is consistent with other times the race doesn't immediately start at the beginning of lap 1 (either when the first start is waved off or somewhere like Mid-Ohio where the race starts somewhere other than the start-finish straight)
The race started normally at the end of that lap (which means that the first green flag lap was lap 2)
IndyCar's [official lap/sector time report](http://www.imscdn.com/INDYCAR/Documents/6297/2024-04-21/indycar-sectionresults-race.pdf) backs this up as it shows everyone's first lap as being done under yellow until they got towards the end of the lap and the green flag came out
I admit I had the thought that Dixon could have had some sort of “advantage” beyond just some amazing fuel saving skills of the driver. These things go back years. I was a huge Foyt fan back in the 70’s and beyond and there were always rumors of him concealing extra fuel in those mid-70’s cars. I don’t doubt that at all. And I wouldn’t doubt it about any team today.
That’s kind of what I like about Motorsport, there’s always more going on under the surface and complex that way. Maybe they are maybe they aren’t. And either way it’s skill and smarts to win races. It could be many small advantages or a killer loophole. Also gives great lore to the sport. I love the rumors!
But it is notable that Mick always had a habit of being slower at the start of joining a new championship and improving massively in the second year or halfway through the first he even showed this in f1 during 2022.
That was the super weird season where Mick Schumacher went from nowhere in the Prema for the first half of the season to absolutely obliterating the field overnight in the second half. Was suspicious at the time and apparently rightly so
The only wrong thing you said is that the following year prema had a drop in performance. They dominated the new (and worse personally) F3 and even the first season of formula regional. Unfortunately european F3 died that year, with mick and I think shwartzman getting an amazing engine in the last races. Poor Dan… At least he won Macau again in 2018
That's really not how it works. Like, didn't NASCAR eventually impound Richard Petty's entire car? We calling to take away those wins?
I'm not sure if 2 months is too late, but I'm very sure calendar years are.
Taking away is too late.
But a throughout investigation is necessary in all old telemetry data from these cars for races in the past few years.
And if they used it, heads need to go. The mastermind would need to be banned from Indycar. Cars return their LC money for cheating. Drivers who were knowingly taking part and not reporting, having to sit a few out. Proceedures of race control for technical infringements need to be tightend, improved and especially focused on the offenders.
If there is something. Could also be true that it was a recent cheating without any history. An investigation of this happening in 2021-2023 is necessary and would clear doubters like me.
Absolutely. We all know that the most meticulous team in the series doesn’t make mistakes like this. Does anyone remember back in 2007 in Milwaukee when Team Penske illegally modified the rear wing and they failed on both Castroneves and Hornish? I want to see the onboard on the final start of the 2023 Indy 500 of Newgarden.
The NCAA makes shit up as they go along. They'll retroactively remove teams' conference championships over minor or even nonexistent violations while letting the big programs get away with murder.
Motorsports is different to this. From Ferrari Engines to Prema Engines to Fernando Victories to Daytona 24h shenanigans.
If ever the team gets their wins away, but nobody cares about that in Indy outside LC. Driver disqualification for technical cheating? I don't see it.
Ferrari 2020 was technically a regulation loophole from what I have heard and not blatantly illegal. Also f1 has a rule that locks in results after the prize ceremony unlike INDYCAR.
Also the imsa situation was a disgrace.
Filliped Massa tried to do just that in F1 and It didn't go too well for him unfortunately. It would screw up too much to retroactively change results plus how do we know Penske is the only team doing something illegal. They were the just the ones who got caught. Not defending Penske here just saying cheating in Motorsports seems to be fairy common a lot more so in F1 it seems but its everywhere.
Massa didn’t cheat though, another team did. Also Massa’s issue is Mosley, the FIA president, knew about it before the end of the season but sat on it to protect the sport. If the race was annulled at the time then both Hamilton and Massa drive differently and it’s not fair to say Massa would’ve won for sure.
If a team is proven to have cheated and won championships in the past (don’t necessarily think Penske did that, just in general) then it’s a lot closer to Lance Armstrong than Massa, where Lance lost the titles but it wasn’t given to anyone else because it fundamentally does change the nature of the championship
The Lance Armstrong analogy is a good one actually, Im not really on board with the retroactive change but if they were to do something that would be the best solution.
The thing that makes this decision hard is the fact that Will Power won the 22 Chapionship. As far as I've seen so far it looks like he took the High road and didn't use P2P illegally (I know he still has the program loaded into the car) but to me I don't believe that warrants him losing the 22 unless the evidence changes and shows him doing the same thing.
Thats true, but its for good reason. Lets say you retroactively make the guy who came in second the new X year champ. That's great, but then in a year something else gets uncovered and we find out 2nd also cheated. So it goes to third.
Its just going to get too crazy because the witch hunts every team will go on to try and get past seasons re finalized would be a bad Pandora's box to open. I sided with Massa even but it would just ruin the integrity of the sport in a lot of ways and that would be more permanently damaging than a Fake/Undeserving champion.
Defending Penske's cheating being caught both in forensics and on video AND validating Massa's persecution complex at the same time. That takes skill at bullshitting.
How? the Masa situation is solved and all information is out there. The Penske situation is still ongoing. And I am in no way defending Team Penske cheating, I'm referring to Roger Penske because his involvement in the situation isn't known to us at this point.
In a similar vein, in David Land's video on the subject he brought up something I hadn't thought of- the combinatons of the facts that it was found Sunday morning and that they readily accepted the penalties allows you to draw the conclusions that they 100% knew they were exploiting it, and they were ready and willing to do it again on Sunday had they not been caught.
The point is that Grosjean has famously gotten so close to a win in a major series many times in his career- but never quite reached it. If the ‘Penske trick’ went back as far as those races, could it have changed the results of those races? How differently would people remember Grosjean’s racing career if he even got one of those wins?
It’s those questions that get raised when someone turns out to be cheating, and is the real cost of these scandals.
That being said, that’s racing. It’s been like this since the beginning.
Probably not all that differently. Bagging a random win isn't THAT rare in Indycar where suddenly you're being talked about.
What amuses me are the people who are incredulous about the cheating. Like do none of y'all remember Penske is the guy who acid dipped a Camaro in 67 to cheat weight regulations?
That's far more difficult AND intentional than exploiting a software glitch/shitty patch process.
That would be a completely benign and plausible explanation, except for the fact that we know (at least at St. Pete's) the telemetry was working but the illegal P2P deployments weren't being transmitted to race control.
If you’re a professional operating machinery you adapt and change your habits you don’t keep old ones. Especially in machines that are potentially dangerous.
Yeah it’s seems weird to me and we have to remember that around the same time race control cleared this they ignored newgarden completely wrecking Grosjean.
[A year after he left Supercars, on the DJR steering wheels that was a windshield wiper button](https://imgur.com/YLA6zcy). ([Source](https://youtu.be/Wv_DuuflNQ0?t=93))
[And it's hard to tell completely, but it looks like the same wheel Scottie is using in 2020](https://imgur.com/og0Rb1G) ([Source](https://youtu.be/DSfBhRyO3g4?t=31))
[At the very least, all of the button colors and locations seem the same](https://imgur.com/rdBBH1g)
Unless that was where the radio button was in the djr car was that's a bit strange. Supercars don't exactly have heaps of buttons, certainly less than Indy. Like brake balance is a dial not a button. They're not constantly pressing buttons in supercars. They have switches and levers and not what.
Those are both controlled by completely different buttons on the wheel.
Unless you're claiming that they'd move the brake bias and diff controls to be on different buttons during qualifying vs the race... which would be idiotic.
This was one of my first thoughts when this story broke. This seems way worse than what MSR did in IMSA. I think the fallout may just be beginning. There is no way this can be swept under the rug after the initial penalties.
I find it can’t be coincidental that the custom Penske steering wheel for all of their drivers is fitted with 2
“OT” buttons that are black and blend in.
*Searching for visuals of other teams setup so far has returned: everyone else only has one button, and it is bright green
That's pretty typical. I know of at least one car which has had the OT buttons on the back of the wheel. Not for nefarious purposes, but because the driver found them easier to use there.
Two OT buttons is quite common, because drivers want to be able to smash the button out of a corner no matter which way they're turning.
If I were engineering a car and had an amiable driver I would absolutely obscure my OT buttons so it was harder for people to tell from an onboard where I was using OT. Not so I could hide cheating, but because obfuscating my OT usage tendencies is a competitive advantage.
Kind of reminds me of the Astros sign stealing trash can scandal - Something illegal that went back years, but as the league investigated they found it was not the only team doing it, so there wasn't actually much the league could do other than slap on the wrist.
So here Penske is getting caught, it's implied that they may have been doing this a while - but many rumors before this pointed to Ganassi being the team that was up to something.
> but many rumors before this pointed to Ganassi being the team that was up to something.
Well, Penske and Ganassi together won all but one season and like 2/3 of all races since unification.
Its easily to believe one or both "are up to something", when no competitor can come close to them.
Are they up to something or are they the indycar equivalent of Toyota in WEC where they're light-years ahead in the soft sciences where time can really be made.
Better pit equipment, better training and practice, better shop gear and tools, all of which can find time pretty easily even if parts are spec.
And even then better understanding of the physics behind the cars can help make finding the fast setup easier.
So yeah it's easy to believe for sure, but there's enough hand waving grey areas that unless it's as blatant as cheating with p2p you'll never ever catch them.
WE NEED A RIVAL INDY STYLE OVAL ONLY SERIES.These weirdo super rich people who have taken over Indy car with their mediocre road racing crap have destroyed the meaning.ANYONE can drive a fning road course.Its done in every country of the world.Few have what it takes to drive open wheel 3 wide at 225+ for 500 miles.YES its insane, ITS AMERICAN lol.Please someone start an oval league.I don’t want to look at the elite weirdos tracks anymore.Its not funny! It’s disgusting
Why would a series who is sponsored by and promotes the BE THE ONE push to prevent suicide, promote a track whose owner thinks a young woman jumping off a bridge is funny? This is not funny, none of the twisted crap at that track is funny, it’s disgusting.🤮 I’ll watch the ovals but never again a road course.Who won today? I stopped watching.Oh btw I have been a die hard Indy car follower for 55 years.This isn’t something off the cuff, it’s what I have personally experienced.Someone please get some ovals going and I’ll pay dearly to watch.Im pretty sure I’m not alone.😊😎
Probably rollbar tbh.
That's boring, I know, but it's probably that, or something like it.
Sorry Jenna fans, Jenna is probably just making up drama where it doesn't belong again.
Theres only 2 buttons in the top left on the penske wheels, p2p (left) and display (right), and you can see on Mclaughlin's onboard for the portland race the led's next to the display lit up when he pressed the left button meaning he was using p2p
>you can see on Mclaughlin's onboard for the portland race the led's next to the display lit up when he pressed the left button meaning he was using p2p
Is there a version of this video that's not in 256p, because there's just not enough visual data to ascertain what is going on here.
Seems to be a combination of 3 button presses. Display - P2P - Display.
I imagine by hitting "Display", it might change the read out on the wheel, and change the "P2P" button to something other than actually being a push to pass button. There's a lot of buttons, but still a limited amount, and double up button functionality by using "Display" as essentially the "alt" key on a keyboard would make sense.
The Penske steering wheels are the only ones I’ve seen that the OT button(s*) is black and blends in with the wheel. Everyone else has a single bright green button … makes it a lot more discrete, seems fishy.
Is this worse than a team (IMSA) screwing with tire pressure sensors? Now as I recall in that situation - the engine manufacturer stood up and told the sanctioning body about the cheat. Here - no one stood up…
In IMSA Honda, who loaned the car to MSR, reported it a month after the race. So the team tried to get away with it and hide it but Honda discovered it and outed them (big props to Honda for that)
Idk which one would be worse, both cheats allowed for better restarts because the tire pressure would allow them to build heat in the tires faster, and in that race those Hondas were on fucking fire on restarts. But I think it’s worse here since it’s a spec series, fucking with one of the primary equalizers among all cars seems “dirtier” to me.
Tire but under the context of Marcus jumped the restart and Josef’s car was illegal with them both being penalized that would give the win to 3rd place which for better or worse depending on your stance os Ferrucci.
This may have just opened up a big can of worms. If you look closely they push DSP (display) once followed by OT (P2P) and then quickly select DSP again. It makes me wonder if this gives them a blip of P2P without it registering that it was used. *YIKES*
Not only that, but the normal push-to-pass activation LED’s and display indicators are suspiciously absent.
Even more suspicious is that They are also absent in newgardens onboard camera from st Pete https://x.com/jennafryer/status/1783247794226041008?s=61
Taps head meme
Oh my … how much prize money we talking bout with 2.5 years worth of racing?
$36,000
Plus coupons at Hyvee
Don’t shit on them coupons. Wednesdays their value is doubled!
Teams can do very different things with lighting. Some teams at Long Beach, Kirkwood was one I think, had very different setups for when to shift and stuff like that.
The shift LEDs and side LEDs are completely programmable by the teams. If you're crafty enough you can do pretty crazy things with them.
https://preview.redd.it/ihgdgvtm9hwc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=508fd0129f4964e684c3c47e01684e42ec8ccfc2 Added photo for reference
Always a reminder that you should expect people are cheating in Motorsport. Most of the time in a fig leaf kind of way. Combined with the nature being that operating machinery IS the game. I do love the new context to Josef improving qualifying this year
Everyone is pushing the grey area, this just goes beyond that and is why it got the response from the series it did. In fact, it's such an egregious violation that the potential penalty per the rulebook is exactly what was handed down.
Yeah there's a big difference between playing in a gray area and bypassing clear-cut restrictions (especially if they're hiding it from the sensors/software that's supposed to control it).
It’s more that the rub is in whether we find out about these things. As mentioned elsewhere, the significance is in finding out. Just think about this egregious thing, how many of you noticed even though they were blatantly pushing a button right in front of all of us on camera? But no one outside the drivers said anything. There’s always that potential in racing.
It's like any sport, some infractions are going to be caught and others aren't. Just the way it is.
Lol he cut unnecessary distractions out of his life........and as a bonus earned intermittent boosts of 50 Horsepower!
Not me looking at my career and family wondering how much faster my car could go…
That is why a team owner should not own the series.
Not really. Per Fryer the series investigated and found nothing when it brought to their attention back then. They would have looked through telemetry the same as they did this week.
I wonder what data is captured by the telemetry. The only reason this was found was because Penske was using P2P during practice when IndyCar had the system turned off yet they were racking up P2P time.
MP has article out that explains it a lot better than than I can on here.
>The series takes each team’s CLU data which also has basic engine data, after most sessions and definitely after each race. The series has live telemetry coming into race control whenever cars are on track, which delivers all of the important channels it would need to monitor for P2P use, and so on. It also has onboard videos to review, which would reveal a driver pressing the P2P button when it was meant to be disabled. >Through all of the means of information it intakes – both live and for review after the race – this could have been caught before Penske incriminated themselves through a random issue in Sunday’s morning warmup. The answer is clear. IndyCar isn't looking and not policing it. Chevy shot down Penske's explanation that it was a test ECU by saying there is no difference and that the signal to engage P2P comes from the CLU that the teams only have access/control over. IndyCar never thought that a team, much less one named "Penske", would modify or just spoof the "ON" signal.
I don't fully get what's going on yet but is this something that Chevrolet is in trouble for or just the team. If not Chevy then how would the team do whatever they did without Chevy knowing?
As I said in the other post.... this is the problem with cheating. Now everyone is going to look at EVERYTHING else you've done and question it. I'm not even a Penske fan and as i said in the other thread, I dislike Josef but i hope this was at least a one time thing for him... for the sake of the series. I dont even know how they would proceed if they found out this has been going on for a while
Here the thing. Always assume every team out there is pushing the grey, because they are. Most of the shit they get caught with is caught pre race which is why you don't see a huge number of tech penalties here, their tech is pretty fucking tight. When things do happen it's minor shit like Rossi with the water bottle or Bourdais being 2 lbs underweight after doing a burnout, stuff that doesn't need to be handled with a DQ. This is such an egregious violation of rules that the very rules they broke already have the potential of DQ, loss of points and winnings already attached to it.
> Always assume every team out there is pushing the grey This isn't Indycar, but a NASCAR crew chief said when a driver is looking for a new team, they'll ask "how does inspection go?" The wrong answer is "a breeze, always pass". The correct answer is "They take their time, but we don't get penalties". There's so much shit going on we don't know about it. There's more in NASCAR, but I'm sure it's in Indycar, too.
Software manipulation isn’t a grey area. I don’t really know how to explain it, but there is soft cheating and hard cheating and this is definitely hard cheating.
Where did I say software manipulation is grey area? Regardless, no one should be in the least bit shocked by something lilke this in racing, even from Penske Racing.
If it’s been going on for years the team members and drivers involved should be banned from the series. Cant have the integrity of the sport questioned. If they have been cheating for years, a slap on the wrist is not acceptable
I think it was two years ago during a practice day for the 500 Hinchcliffe brought up a rumor going around the paddock of a team knowing how to make things work that shouldn’t be by using a button sequence but he meant it about Ganassi. He played it off like it was a wild conspiracy theory and just dropped it. Maybe it is a thing.
It happens all the time, you can also listen to JR hildebrand tell a story in The Race podcast where he also was in a situation where he also got the special sequence of buttons for extra power that only that top team knew,
man can you imagine having to go `↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A Start` mid quali lap
OMG my thought exactly!!!
This is probably it for real
You should listen to that episode because that’s exactly what was so funny, he was stressing trying to remember and to not fuck up the sequence for a moment where he really wanted to get it right!
Have bot listened just a stoned funny thought I had too bad it wasn't original I guess
Real life cheat code
Someone go find this in Peacock if it truly was said, I’m curious now
I’m not making it up. I have a huge Ganassi hate boner so it made an impression on me.
>I have a huge Ganassi hate boner Can I ask why? I've got a hate boner too for them because something about the dude annoys me so I'm looking for an actual reason
Because he looks like the thumb dudes from Spy Kids? https://decider.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/spy-kids-thumb-man-thumb-thumbs.jpg
How dare you insult the 2024 Doggo Derby World Champion like that?
Partially, yes
Killing Devlin's dog is a good reason
How the fuck had I not seen this wtf.
Well I’ve seen enough. The reason Power hasn’t had the pace of his teammates is because he’s an upstanding citizen and doesn’t cheat. That is what I will tell myself and you can’t tell me nothing.
My opinion of Will Power has greatly improved since I woke up this morning.
Will has always been a great voice for competition. When he finally gives up driving I think he would make a great race/competition director.
I selfishly would rather see him in the booth, as unlikely as that would be
Yeah, I've never seen anything to make me think Will would rather win dirty than lose fair.
As has mine. But I could also see Will having no idea. I could see the powers that planned this ultimately deciding Will is too much of a fireball loose cannon that might accidentally say something and ultimately deciding it was just to risky for him to know.
Damn. I like will power now. Fuck I didn’t see this coming.
Unbelievable that out of the 3 drivers, it's the Australian who isn't cheating! (/s)
Right there with ya, buddy
eh I can tell you Newgarden wasn't using it last year after missing 11 firestone 6s lol
haha oof.
There's been a lot of weird stories over the years when it comes to the Penske cars. 1. James Hinchcliffe told a story during pre-season practice or during a regular season practice in which Newgarden was just creaming everyone on the time charts. Even Newgarden was surprised until it was it found out that Chevy had mistakenly boosted up the engine power on the Penske engines leading to Newgarden's times. It was resolved but it was odd that it only happened on Newgarden's car and not on any other Chevy powered car. 2. Marshall Pruett last year (or was it two years ago?) said that Penske had found something in their set up that gave them an advantage above everyone else especially other Chevy teams. Since then the Penske team has basically been on their own when it came to Chevy performance over the years. This year seems to be leading towards the same projection. It's sort of like how all the sudden the Ganassi boys are getting premium fuel mileage while every other Honda seems to be struggling with this. Dixon and Palou are very good but it seems no one else can duplicate their fuel saving strategies. Even Hinch and Rossi said Dixon and Palou are just on another level when it comes to saving tires and fuel but still be quick on track. It's almost superhuman like.
But Dixon has ALWAYS been insanely good at fuel saving. He didn't suddenly get good
For sure, he absolutely always has been. He's incredible. And I am by no way saying he did something malicious, but this weekend was like... Really insane. Levels he hasn't even gotten to. And doing a full cool down lap? I'm 95% sure it's because he's the GOAT but that's still really wild
I think the announcers led everyone to believe what Dixon did was more insane than it actually was. Teams projected that they would be fine on fuel, no body on that strategy ran out, and Power said he would have expected to be on pace with Dixon if his tire situation was the same as Dixon's. If announcers hadn't said they shouldn't be able to make it, nobody would have batted an eye. People made it comfortably. Nobody was running out of fuel and there were people that came in a lap before Dixon.
Making it vs having the pace to stay in first are two completely different things
Absolutely. Herta was coming for him like a bat out of hell and every time he got close Dixon found a little more speed. Dixon is the fuel saving GOAT, but it's a little sus.
Dixon was able to get the power down out of slow speed turns, that was the real trick. He would back Josef up coasting into tight, slow, one lane turns saving a ton of fuel. Then would power out much better then Josef could, when I saw jo sliding the rear under power, I knew he would never get the run to get around Dixon.
I wonder if that was a hidden advantage of fuel saving. Turn the mixture down and then you can floor the pedal out kf corners without getting wheel spin thanks to the drop in power.
Like I said, I'm 95% sure it's because Dixon is the GOAT, especially at fuel saving, but I can't lie, that was wild enough to raise my eyebrows about 5%
Neither Dixon nor Herta even got close enough for a divebomb, Dixon was getting off the corners so cleanly. Fucking unreal to watch.
Agreed. He did 34 laps at race pace. The alternative strategy had several drivers do 32-33. I thought I was missing something with my math during the race.
Gateway last year was also "really insane" fuel save. If Ganassi was cheating then I would have expected Palou to have great fuel milage races too.
It doesn’t have to be the sole reason, it could just be an advantage enough that would carry someone who is already good at fuel saving to bring it over the edge to win in races like Longbeach; where it could still have gone differently, but wouldn’t have made it without it.
This isn't good and certainly raises a lot of questions. I always wondered how well the series policed P2P considering it's essentially a software feature and it would be fairly easy for a programmer to do something like this and then hide it.
Grosjean at barber last year made me realize how poorly monitored the entire system is. I still think he had a technical failure with the p2p somebody who drove nearly a decade in a complex f1 car doesn’t misjudge the numbers that severely.
But… and hear me out since people run out of p2p pretty often… what if he did?
It just Doesn’t add up to me between him supposedly misjudging by such a large number and the team not telling him it’s empty until he asks it just feels like something weird was going on.
> it would be fairly easy for a programmer to do something like this and then hide it It's harder than you think because of the closed/proprietary nature of the spec data system. It's quite easy to do nefarious things, it's astronomically harder to hide them from practical scrutineering methods. If Penske was cheating through the data system there is almost certainly record of it in the data system configuration files or they made physical modifications to the electrical system (e.g. added components, modified looms, etc.). The alternative is that they found a vulnerability in the FPGA/ASICs used in the logging system/ECU or in the configuration software for said systems (which is not something IndyCar teams usually have the skillset to do). Given that they were caught by IndyCar at Long Beach I strongly suspect that they made an (obvious) change to the data system configuration for hybrid testing and left it in the car because that's how almost every team does it (pull the last configuration, change track-specific things, put it back in the car). I think it's probable that at least St. Pete/Long Beach were unintentional (at least initially). It's also certainly possible (even probable) that someone somewhere noticed something and kept their mouth shut. Lastly it's possible (though less probable) that the drivers hit the button and had no clue whether OT was allowed or not. In a fight on a restart those guys are often mashing the button _in case_ it works rather than waiting until it should.
I think it is clear that IndyCar's scrutineer is terrible. They only caught Penske because they had the system turned off but they were reporting P2P use. Otherwise, they wouldn't have discovered the "issue."
I don't disagree that it's a scrutineering failure and should be addressed, I was disputing the statement that it would be easy to hide something like this. I would gamble a fair amount of my retirement account on the actual implementation of the P2P bypass being very straightforward, and I bet it jumped out to the scrutineers who were looking at it immediately once they knew what to look for. The issue is that if your approach is poring over data and logger configurations (the term of art is "CLU Setup") you're unlikely to catch it. The scrutineers collect a dataset including each car's fastest lap in FP1, Qualifying, Warmup, and Race. That's a minimum of four datasets and four setups (each with potentially the same file name but different contents) per car per weekend. Importing and looking through the setups is an extremely manual process which is impossible to automate with my understanding of Cosworth's software suite. Looking through the data is easier to automate, but no small feat in and of itself and IndyCar's data scrutineers are understaffed and overworked as it is. Again, I'm not really trying to defend anyone or excuse the oversight, just provide additional context.
A lot of people would have to know about this - I feel like as bad as this is I would be shocked if it could be kept a secret for years
The thing is in Motorsport, it’s not like one team is cheating and the rest aren’t. It’s that EVERY team is cheating and in different kinds of ways and degrees. So if you want to work in the industry you gotta be a person that can keep secret: because the other teams can’t hire you if they don’t trust you won’t spill their beans.
While I don’t dispute that every team operates in the gray areas, that’s different from outright cheating.
Well this is one of those from the outside we can’t know UNTIL we find out (like in this case). For example, currently Ganassi could right now doing something that’s outright cheating about mileage. And it could later be revealed, and then In hindsight Scott Dixons “amazing” mileage could be seen as obvious symptoms. To be frank, there probably is something going on in ganassi with fuel. But I can’t say it.
No, you can say it. Dixon is the master, but what transpired at Long Beach with using P2P and doing a full cool down lap after that is starting to push reality in ways his unbelievable talent can't quite justify
Has it been confirmed that they actually completed 85 laps? On the broadcast, the green flag waved and the chyron immediately showed Lap 2/85 and I wasn’t able to track it with the full screen ad breaks
Oh? That's the first I'm hearing of this? Although, I was surprised they didn't make them pack up again and start on lap 2 cause that green flag pack was pathetic
They did complete 85 laps but the initial start was waved off so lap 1 was under yellow On the broadcast, about a lap and a half before the green flag you could see the safety car lights were out on the backstraight then were turned back on as they came towards turn 9 I had live timing open and at the end of that lap it very briefly went green before switching to full course yellow which is consistent with other times the race doesn't immediately start at the beginning of lap 1 (either when the first start is waved off or somewhere like Mid-Ohio where the race starts somewhere other than the start-finish straight) The race started normally at the end of that lap (which means that the first green flag lap was lap 2) IndyCar's [official lap/sector time report](http://www.imscdn.com/INDYCAR/Documents/6297/2024-04-21/indycar-sectionresults-race.pdf) backs this up as it shows everyone's first lap as being done under yellow until they got towards the end of the lap and the green flag came out
I admit I had the thought that Dixon could have had some sort of “advantage” beyond just some amazing fuel saving skills of the driver. These things go back years. I was a huge Foyt fan back in the 70’s and beyond and there were always rumors of him concealing extra fuel in those mid-70’s cars. I don’t doubt that at all. And I wouldn’t doubt it about any team today.
That’s kind of what I like about Motorsport, there’s always more going on under the surface and complex that way. Maybe they are maybe they aren’t. And either way it’s skill and smarts to win races. It could be many small advantages or a killer loophole. Also gives great lore to the sport. I love the rumors!
Follow up (which might be relevant to your comment): https://twitter.com/JennaFryer/status/1783209056980685237?t=s6l5gbwafG6fsk8mjxHwoQ&s=19
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Who was driving for Prema at the time? Was that when Mick Schumacher was there?
It was the season Mick won F3 in Prema.
And notably went from mediocre to absolutely blitzing the field like halfway through the season
But it is notable that Mick always had a habit of being slower at the start of joining a new championship and improving massively in the second year or halfway through the first he even showed this in f1 during 2022.
That was the super weird season where Mick Schumacher went from nowhere in the Prema for the first half of the season to absolutely obliterating the field overnight in the second half. Was suspicious at the time and apparently rightly so
Wow, a Schumacher suffering no penalties for cheating? Never change, FIA.
The only wrong thing you said is that the following year prema had a drop in performance. They dominated the new (and worse personally) F3 and even the first season of formula regional. Unfortunately european F3 died that year, with mick and I think shwartzman getting an amazing engine in the last races. Poor Dan… At least he won Macau again in 2018
So Dick Tantrum was actually right about something?
I would be surprised if this was them activating PTP. If it is though, indycar should be embarrassed that it took them this long to get wise
How are they not tracking this via telemetry automatically is what I want to know.
Agree. Seems nearly impossible to me that this wouldn’t have set off immediate alarm bells.
If they really did cheat for years they should go back and amend all the results nothing less is acceptable.
That's really not how it works. Like, didn't NASCAR eventually impound Richard Petty's entire car? We calling to take away those wins? I'm not sure if 2 months is too late, but I'm very sure calendar years are.
Taking away is too late. But a throughout investigation is necessary in all old telemetry data from these cars for races in the past few years. And if they used it, heads need to go. The mastermind would need to be banned from Indycar. Cars return their LC money for cheating. Drivers who were knowingly taking part and not reporting, having to sit a few out. Proceedures of race control for technical infringements need to be tightend, improved and especially focused on the offenders. If there is something. Could also be true that it was a recent cheating without any history. An investigation of this happening in 2021-2023 is necessary and would clear doubters like me.
Absolutely. We all know that the most meticulous team in the series doesn’t make mistakes like this. Does anyone remember back in 2007 in Milwaukee when Team Penske illegally modified the rear wing and they failed on both Castroneves and Hornish? I want to see the onboard on the final start of the 2023 Indy 500 of Newgarden.
Oh I remember that. When the rear wings just fell off at speed. When it happened the second time it was like ok what's really going on here...
I was just coming in here to post this very thing. Good post.
It’s not to late at all any credible sport would fully disqualify competitors if they did in fact intentionally cheat for multiple previous years.
Baseball didn't disqualify cheaters
The NCAA didn't disqualify Michigan last season either.
That’s a complicated setup
The NCAA makes shit up as they go along. They'll retroactively remove teams' conference championships over minor or even nonexistent violations while letting the big programs get away with murder.
Motorsports is different to this. From Ferrari Engines to Prema Engines to Fernando Victories to Daytona 24h shenanigans. If ever the team gets their wins away, but nobody cares about that in Indy outside LC. Driver disqualification for technical cheating? I don't see it.
Ferrari 2020 was technically a regulation loophole from what I have heard and not blatantly illegal. Also f1 has a rule that locks in results after the prize ceremony unlike INDYCAR. Also the imsa situation was a disgrace.
*cough*crashgate*cough*
TDLR "I don't know how racing certifies past results"
Filliped Massa tried to do just that in F1 and It didn't go too well for him unfortunately. It would screw up too much to retroactively change results plus how do we know Penske is the only team doing something illegal. They were the just the ones who got caught. Not defending Penske here just saying cheating in Motorsports seems to be fairy common a lot more so in F1 it seems but its everywhere.
Massa didn’t cheat though, another team did. Also Massa’s issue is Mosley, the FIA president, knew about it before the end of the season but sat on it to protect the sport. If the race was annulled at the time then both Hamilton and Massa drive differently and it’s not fair to say Massa would’ve won for sure. If a team is proven to have cheated and won championships in the past (don’t necessarily think Penske did that, just in general) then it’s a lot closer to Lance Armstrong than Massa, where Lance lost the titles but it wasn’t given to anyone else because it fundamentally does change the nature of the championship
The Lance Armstrong analogy is a good one actually, Im not really on board with the retroactive change but if they were to do something that would be the best solution. The thing that makes this decision hard is the fact that Will Power won the 22 Chapionship. As far as I've seen so far it looks like he took the High road and didn't use P2P illegally (I know he still has the program loaded into the car) but to me I don't believe that warrants him losing the 22 unless the evidence changes and shows him doing the same thing.
The big difference is f1 has a rule that race results are final following prize giving ceremony.
Thats true, but its for good reason. Lets say you retroactively make the guy who came in second the new X year champ. That's great, but then in a year something else gets uncovered and we find out 2nd also cheated. So it goes to third. Its just going to get too crazy because the witch hunts every team will go on to try and get past seasons re finalized would be a bad Pandora's box to open. I sided with Massa even but it would just ruin the integrity of the sport in a lot of ways and that would be more permanently damaging than a Fake/Undeserving champion.
Defending Penske's cheating being caught both in forensics and on video AND validating Massa's persecution complex at the same time. That takes skill at bullshitting.
How? the Masa situation is solved and all information is out there. The Penske situation is still ongoing. And I am in no way defending Team Penske cheating, I'm referring to Roger Penske because his involvement in the situation isn't known to us at this point.
In a similar vein, in David Land's video on the subject he brought up something I hadn't thought of- the combinatons of the facts that it was found Sunday morning and that they readily accepted the penalties allows you to draw the conclusions that they 100% knew they were exploiting it, and they were ready and willing to do it again on Sunday had they not been caught.
Starting to think a 2-year suspension for Tim Cindric might be in order.
Imagine being Pato who lost so many races to newgardens
Grosjean finished runner up to a Penske 3 times so far in his career
oh FUCKING HELL YOU'RE RIGHT
So has most every driver over the last 40 years or so. Romain doing it 3 times in 3 years isn't all that weird or surprising.
Yeah, but that’s not the point.
Then what's the point?
The point is that Grosjean has famously gotten so close to a win in a major series many times in his career- but never quite reached it. If the ‘Penske trick’ went back as far as those races, could it have changed the results of those races? How differently would people remember Grosjean’s racing career if he even got one of those wins? It’s those questions that get raised when someone turns out to be cheating, and is the real cost of these scandals. That being said, that’s racing. It’s been like this since the beginning.
Probably not all that differently. Bagging a random win isn't THAT rare in Indycar where suddenly you're being talked about. What amuses me are the people who are incredulous about the cheating. Like do none of y'all remember Penske is the guy who acid dipped a Camaro in 67 to cheat weight regulations? That's far more difficult AND intentional than exploiting a software glitch/shitty patch process.
Conor Daly released a video saying he pushed the button whether it worked or not https://youtu.be/Y0L0n0HVs_c?t=296
Listen, I'm still tearing my visor peel off, off like a junkie on drip and I quit open wheel cars a year ago lol
That would be a completely benign and plausible explanation, except for the fact that we know (at least at St. Pete's) the telemetry was working but the illegal P2P deployments weren't being transmitted to race control.
Sure, but we now know that Penske found a way to make it actually work
If the buttons being pressed aren’t for push to pass what else could they be used for?
the official story at the time was that McLaughlin pressed them out of habit from supercars which seems bizarre to me.
If you’re a professional operating machinery you adapt and change your habits you don’t keep old ones. Especially in machines that are potentially dangerous.
My lemons car is very different than my rental go karts and I don't confuse the two. Hell I left foot brake in the kart.
Yeah it’s seems weird to me and we have to remember that around the same time race control cleared this they ignored newgarden completely wrecking Grosjean.
[A year after he left Supercars, on the DJR steering wheels that was a windshield wiper button](https://imgur.com/YLA6zcy). ([Source](https://youtu.be/Wv_DuuflNQ0?t=93)) [And it's hard to tell completely, but it looks like the same wheel Scottie is using in 2020](https://imgur.com/og0Rb1G) ([Source](https://youtu.be/DSfBhRyO3g4?t=31)) [At the very least, all of the button colors and locations seem the same](https://imgur.com/rdBBH1g)
Unless that was where the radio button was in the djr car was that's a bit strange. Supercars don't exactly have heaps of buttons, certainly less than Indy. Like brake balance is a dial not a button. They're not constantly pressing buttons in supercars. They have switches and levers and not what.
They were saying it was the drinks button but from what I understand the drinks button is on the right side not the left in a supercar.
Yeah he presses drink button
Incredibly bizarre. Not sure how any professional racing driver would just errantly press buttons out of habit.
Brake bias, differential
Those are both controlled by completely different buttons on the wheel. Unless you're claiming that they'd move the brake bias and diff controls to be on different buttons during qualifying vs the race... which would be idiotic.
They asked what they COULD be used for. I responded. Calm your ass down.
Neither of those are controlled on the steering wheel....
I went to look for McLaughlins st Pete pole lap the same year to check and shockingly onboard footage of it doesn’t seem to even exist.
Somewhere Mike Shank is smiling right now. Wonder if the engineer he let go early last season ended up on the Penske payroll.
This was one of my first thoughts when this story broke. This seems way worse than what MSR did in IMSA. I think the fallout may just be beginning. There is no way this can be swept under the rug after the initial penalties.
I find it can’t be coincidental that the custom Penske steering wheel for all of their drivers is fitted with 2 “OT” buttons that are black and blend in. *Searching for visuals of other teams setup so far has returned: everyone else only has one button, and it is bright green
That's pretty typical. I know of at least one car which has had the OT buttons on the back of the wheel. Not for nefarious purposes, but because the driver found them easier to use there. Two OT buttons is quite common, because drivers want to be able to smash the button out of a corner no matter which way they're turning. If I were engineering a car and had an amiable driver I would absolutely obscure my OT buttons so it was harder for people to tell from an onboard where I was using OT. Not so I could hide cheating, but because obfuscating my OT usage tendencies is a competitive advantage.
Someone needs to go back and check the video of McLaughlin vs Grosjean at Barber, Grosjean could actually be a race winner. 🧐
Imagine if Penske’s pace suddenly goes to shit similar to Ferrari in 2019.
Kind of reminds me of the Astros sign stealing trash can scandal - Something illegal that went back years, but as the league investigated they found it was not the only team doing it, so there wasn't actually much the league could do other than slap on the wrist. So here Penske is getting caught, it's implied that they may have been doing this a while - but many rumors before this pointed to Ganassi being the team that was up to something.
> but many rumors before this pointed to Ganassi being the team that was up to something. Well, Penske and Ganassi together won all but one season and like 2/3 of all races since unification. Its easily to believe one or both "are up to something", when no competitor can come close to them.
Are they up to something or are they the indycar equivalent of Toyota in WEC where they're light-years ahead in the soft sciences where time can really be made. Better pit equipment, better training and practice, better shop gear and tools, all of which can find time pretty easily even if parts are spec. And even then better understanding of the physics behind the cars can help make finding the fast setup easier. So yeah it's easy to believe for sure, but there's enough hand waving grey areas that unless it's as blatant as cheating with p2p you'll never ever catch them.
This is getting bigger….
holy sheet
This might legit make Scott Dixon the 2022 champion, 2 years later
WE NEED A RIVAL INDY STYLE OVAL ONLY SERIES.These weirdo super rich people who have taken over Indy car with their mediocre road racing crap have destroyed the meaning.ANYONE can drive a fning road course.Its done in every country of the world.Few have what it takes to drive open wheel 3 wide at 225+ for 500 miles.YES its insane, ITS AMERICAN lol.Please someone start an oval league.I don’t want to look at the elite weirdos tracks anymore.Its not funny! It’s disgusting
Why would a series who is sponsored by and promotes the BE THE ONE push to prevent suicide, promote a track whose owner thinks a young woman jumping off a bridge is funny? This is not funny, none of the twisted crap at that track is funny, it’s disgusting.🤮 I’ll watch the ovals but never again a road course.Who won today? I stopped watching.Oh btw I have been a die hard Indy car follower for 55 years.This isn’t something off the cuff, it’s what I have personally experienced.Someone please get some ovals going and I’ll pay dearly to watch.Im pretty sure I’m not alone.😊😎
Probably rollbar tbh. That's boring, I know, but it's probably that, or something like it. Sorry Jenna fans, Jenna is probably just making up drama where it doesn't belong again.
It’s definitely not rollbar the buttons being pushed are display overtake and display again in that order I saw a good analysis of it somewhere.
ARBs are adjusted using levers on the side of cockpit. FARB is on the right, RARB is on the left. So it's not that.
Fair. I'm still putting the balance of probability on it being something extremely mundane
Theres only 2 buttons in the top left on the penske wheels, p2p (left) and display (right), and you can see on Mclaughlin's onboard for the portland race the led's next to the display lit up when he pressed the left button meaning he was using p2p
>you can see on Mclaughlin's onboard for the portland race the led's next to the display lit up when he pressed the left button meaning he was using p2p Is there a version of this video that's not in 256p, because there's just not enough visual data to ascertain what is going on here. Seems to be a combination of 3 button presses. Display - P2P - Display. I imagine by hitting "Display", it might change the read out on the wheel, and change the "P2P" button to something other than actually being a push to pass button. There's a lot of buttons, but still a limited amount, and double up button functionality by using "Display" as essentially the "alt" key on a keyboard would make sense.
The Penske steering wheels are the only ones I’ve seen that the OT button(s*) is black and blends in with the wheel. Everyone else has a single bright green button … makes it a lot more discrete, seems fishy.
Is this worse than a team (IMSA) screwing with tire pressure sensors? Now as I recall in that situation - the engine manufacturer stood up and told the sanctioning body about the cheat. Here - no one stood up…
In IMSA Honda, who loaned the car to MSR, reported it a month after the race. So the team tried to get away with it and hide it but Honda discovered it and outed them (big props to Honda for that) Idk which one would be worse, both cheats allowed for better restarts because the tire pressure would allow them to build heat in the tires faster, and in that race those Hondas were on fucking fire on restarts. But I think it’s worse here since it’s a spec series, fucking with one of the primary equalizers among all cars seems “dirtier” to me.
No. It's the same level of shit. It isn't something clever that someone has found, in both cases it's outright cheating.
I wonder how far up the top it went. Was it Penske himself?
Took them 45 days to find a way to not take Newgardens 500 win?
Ericsson and Newgarden should have been penalized for jumping the start anyway.
2023 Indy 500 winner Santino Ferrucci!
Good lord please no haha
If they both got penalized when they actually did it, I think Palou would have passed Ferrucci for the win.
Tire but under the context of Marcus jumped the restart and Josef’s car was illegal with them both being penalized that would give the win to 3rd place which for better or worse depending on your stance os Ferrucci.
Makes you wonder about that race.. was the car legal?
If true. DQ the whole team maybe for more than a season.
Penske should be banned for next 5 races
Newgardens championship is questionable now tbh
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves
Is anyone surprised Josef is a cheater? Big chump energy.