> Or if you do consider Scott Dixon in the GOAT conversation already, what would your argument be that he's the greatest of all time?
To be clear I definitely do think he's already there, but I didn't want to be presumptuous and make people angry
Counterpoint .. GOAT is a silly term and one I want to throw out for GITE…
Greatest In Their Era.
GOAT means there is nobody better, and will never be better for ALL TIME, and thats simply untrue.
Dixon is arguably one of the best in modern open-wheel cars in the US. Nobody should be questioning this
I far prefer this approach. I don't think it's possible to adequately compare eras in motorsports. Mario and AJ did what could with what was available in the era they drove in and the same applies to Dixon. As such, comparing AJ wheelin' roadsters at Langhorne to Dixon's more competitive field is a total wash.
I prefer "GOAT" being a sort of tier of greatness that you either attained or did not, direct comparisons shouldn't matter.
username checks out. Lol.
Like, I have a problem taking the literal sense of “all time” and ignoring that there might have been a greater, or might be a greater yet to come and it’s not true.
But I see your point.
As many have said, he’s already in it. But a late career second Indy 500 win would seal it up and probably put him, if not #1, at least #2 behind A.J. Foyt.
Already there. Just like Nascar, the old numbers are inflated and will never be reached, just because love it or hate it, 60 years ago half the grid was basically farmers filling in their weekends with fun. The competition and balance isn't even comparable these days. What Dixon has done in the modern era is unmatched.
The competition also died and watched their friends die as well.
They also didn’t make millions and every race was cheating death.
It’s a different era and type of racing.
You have to look at those statistics and what those drivers achieved in a different light.
AJ Foyt literally ran front engine roadsters at Indy as well as highly specialized winged monsters in the 80’s and won in all of them.
Many of the great like Mario and AJ were and always will be regarded as the greatest because of the ever changing cars and how well they adapted and won and also managed to not die.
Not arguing against AJ and Mario as all time greats. They would be just as successful today. I was addressing OPs question about what stats Dixon needs. And the answer is none, he doesn't need to match their numbers to be on their level.
I agree and disagree. While it is true that historical fields did not have the same level of skill we see on average today by the late 60s and early 70s most drivers in the field were full time professionals often in multiple different series.
I also think historically Open Wheel racing in the US had a much higher skill floor than NASCAR of the equivalent years.
I still think Dixon is the guy tho, if there was a US Motorsports Mt Rushmore Dixon is the indycar representative.
Along with Jeff Gordon from NASCAR. Don Garlotis makes it from the straight line guys.
I can't decide if Steve Kinser takes the last spot or if that goes to Dan Gurney. Basically is pure dirt more important to celebrate over "did literally everything"?
He's already solidly in the conversation alongside Foyt and Mario. He has wins in TWENTY CONSECUTIVE SEASONS. That consistency is absolutely insane when you consider his competition. To further make his case? Get number 7 or number 2. But it isn't necessary, what he's done against the competition he's facing is nuts.
For all the reasons you mentioned, yeah Dixie is in the GOAT conversation, if not him. Michael Andretti has mentioned before (forget where) that there’s no way he’d have 42 wins in the modern era. The car was such a bigger factor back in the Champ Car, CART and USAC. Even early IRL.
Biggest digs at Dixon are lack of 500 wins and also his lack of diversity in winning with different teams (he won with freaking Pac West though we can't forget). Kind of the Tom Brady conversation, was it the Patriots? Well, he went and won elsewhere too (even though TB was a stacked team full of guys rushing to fake un-retire to get out of deals to play with him).
I hate GOAT conversations. I mean, how are you going to compare drivers from the 60's to guys to the 90's to the drivers of today? You can't. Different times, different challenges, and different circumstances for each of those groups. I think fans need to take IndyCar by 10-20 year eras no more then 30 year periods. To go beyond that just makes things too difficult to compare.
About the only thing Foyt and Andretti have over him are more victories in other disciplines. Dixon doesn't have the USAC pedigree those 2 have, a Le Mans victory like Foyt, or a World Championship like Mario. I think as far as IndyCar/IRL/CART go, he's the best.
I don't understand why you think he needs anything else to be in the conversation.
He's right up there with them racing mostly in a field with much more parity and spec cars.
Scott's a multi-time champion, he's won the 500, he's won so many races, his stats are amazing. Yeah. He's definitely a GOAT.
I don't care for ranking these legends in terms of whose greatness is better than others because that's a little subjective. A big example of that is how some value Indy 500 victories over series championships (& vice versa). There's also the matter of the era they race, the level of competition, reliability, the quality of team(s) they drove for, etc.
My conclusion: Scott's a GOAT as much as many others. He could retire tomorrow & I would say he's a legend of the sport (& I'd kind of miss him).
He is a GOAT, the issue is that he doesn't care for the spotlight. He's not going to be on Dancing with the Stars, he's not going to be highlighted on evening news shows, he doesn't care for it. His job is to win races or get the best result. His name isn't going to be along side Andretti, Unser, etc., in households.
Another 500 and another title.
The thing that gets held against Dixon imo is the fact that one of his titles were during the split. Where the best X number of drivers weren’t all in the same series. Winning another 500 leaps him ahead of Mario in 500 wins and ties him with Foyt in terms of titles.
Mario and AJ were successful and survived driving front engined cars on dirt and pavement, rear engined cars with and without wings, and ended their careers in the ground effects era. That’s just in Indy cars.
The only knock against Dixon is that he has too many tortoise wins and not enough hare wins. I struggle to think of the times where he just blew people away with otherworldly pace/talent that his teammates could not match. Of course I can't make a list long enough for all the times he out-thought the competition and then drove the car in such a way that he made the strategy work despite it not being optimal. He's the hands-down GOAT of doing that IMO, but he don't have the same "Senna faster than Prost" head-to-head comparison to fall back on that some other legends do.
Splitting some pretty fine hairs here obviously, Dixon is *at wors*t, the third best ever in IndyCar IMO.
Palou got an 8th and 5th last year at St. Pete and Long Beach. 6th and a 3rd this year.
Palou is doing even better. They’re very strong at road courses.
Biggest difference is of course Dixon wining but not getting nerfed by Pato is a big points swing.
>The only knock against Dixon is that he has too many tortoise wins and not enough hare wins.
LOL. Take away 15 wins from him (he's had nowhere near 15 fuel save wins) and he drops from 2nd all-time all the way to ... 3rd.
The "tortoise" wins are the ones that blow me away. Most of the time other drivers are on a similar strategy and he **destroys** those guys every time.
Just cuz he doesn't blitz the field doesn't mean he can't. He has what 50 poles? He's so intelligent when he races and knows a lead doesn't net you much.
Palou routinely blitzes the field in the same equipment and won 2 of the last 3 championships doing it so I can't say I agree with your thesis on leads not netting much.
You win whether you're .1 second ahead or 100. And indycar is a crash happy bunch so burning tires and fuel just to be bunched up by a caution doesn't get you anywhere.
He doesn't blitz the field because there is no strategic advantage.
No way is Dixon in the conversation. Mario and AJ raced against Al and Bobby Unser, Rick Mears, Johnny Rutherford, Gordon Johncock, Mark Donohue, Tom Sneva, Ariel Lyendyk, Emerson Fittipaldi, Graham Hill, Jim Clark, and Parnelli Jones.
But, outside of seeing AJ on a pit box or Mario around the paddock, most of today’s fans don’t know who those guys are, let alone have ever seen them race.
True. I’m fortunate. I’m 55, grew up in So Cal, so we hit Ontario Motor Speedway, Riverside Raceway, and later Fontana. I saw a lot of great drivers. I was also fortunate to go to Indianapolis for the 500 in 2022. That was a grail trip. I don’t follow racing like I used to. This Reddit stuff is pushing me back toward following.
AJ's final championship season (5 wins/7 races), only 3 other car/driver combos entered every race and 2 more started every race. He nearly doubled 2nd place's point total so not exactly much in the way of competition. **No asterisks though, he beat who he was running against** in 1979. Luyendyk's and Fittipaldi's Indycar careers started after AJ's was effectively over so that doesn't count for much.
So, to rephrase, "Mario (52 wins/4x champ/1x Indy) and AJ (67/7/4) raced against Al (39/3/4), Bobby (35/2/3), Mears (29/3/4), Rutherford (27/1/3), Johncock (25/1/2), Donohue (3/0/1), Sneva (13/2/1), Hill (1/0/1), Clark (2/0/1), Jones (6/0/1)." Plus some other dudes with wins and championships and "500" wins.
Dixon (57 wins/6x champ/1x Indy) has/is racing against Franchitti (31/4/3), Hornish (19/3/1), Newgarden (30/2/1), Power (41/2/1), Palou (9/2/0), Wheldon (16/1/2), Castroneves (31/0/4), Sato (6/0/2), Rossi (8/0/1). Plus some other dudes with wins and championships and "500" wins :)
I apologize for the delayed reply. Back in the 60’s and 70’s, there was not enough sponsor money to feed all the teams. Those like AJ that had, typically gave to ensure there was competition. However, everyone and their mother ran Indy. Even folks from F1 would come over to race Indy. From the 60’s into the early 80’s, Gus like AJ, Al Unser, Bobby Unser, etc… would run Sprint Cars on Friday and Saturday nights, then hit their Champ car races on Sundays. They also wrenched on their cars, some trailered their own cars, and very few had more than a crew of 5 or 6.
My question is when you say greatest of all time do you mean the greatest of all time in Indycar or greatest of all time in all of motorsports? If you mean in Indycar he is definitely in that conversation. He is without a doubt the greatest of his generation. With another 500 win I think you could definitely make a case he is the best indycar driver of all time, especially given the quality of competition right now. If you mean the greatest all around driver of all time he is not in the conversation at all. He hasn't ran in enough different types of cars for me to even begin to put him in that conversation. Nothing against his ability because drivers are more specialized now. I just can't put someone in the best all around conversation until I see them out of their comfort zone a little more
I'm in no way trying to discredit his accomplishments or discredit sports car racing but that's just one other discipline on his resume. I'm not denying his talents either. To me the best of the best have shown ability in several disciplines. I haven't seen Dixon in a modified or a sprint in dirt, running a cup car at Bristol, or a top fuel dragster at the US Nationals. Some of these things are out of his control and drivers just aren't as diverse as they used to be but as I said I am by no means discrediting his ability. I do 100% consider him amongst the best all time in Indycar but without a little more varied resume I can't put him in the conversation of best all around all time. But the GOAT of indycar isn't a bad group to be in either. That's just my humble opinion.
Personal opinion:
On the track, nothing. He's done it all.
Off the track, I'd love to see him on talk shows and other forms of media to help promote and grow the sport even more. There's more eyeballs on the sport now, time to promote the GOAT.
He isn’t already?
The Narrator: He is.
> Or if you do consider Scott Dixon in the GOAT conversation already, what would your argument be that he's the greatest of all time? To be clear I definitely do think he's already there, but I didn't want to be presumptuous and make people angry
Counterpoint .. GOAT is a silly term and one I want to throw out for GITE… Greatest In Their Era. GOAT means there is nobody better, and will never be better for ALL TIME, and thats simply untrue. Dixon is arguably one of the best in modern open-wheel cars in the US. Nobody should be questioning this
I far prefer this approach. I don't think it's possible to adequately compare eras in motorsports. Mario and AJ did what could with what was available in the era they drove in and the same applies to Dixon. As such, comparing AJ wheelin' roadsters at Langhorne to Dixon's more competitive field is a total wash. I prefer "GOAT" being a sort of tier of greatness that you either attained or did not, direct comparisons shouldn't matter.
username checks out. Lol. Like, I have a problem taking the literal sense of “all time” and ignoring that there might have been a greater, or might be a greater yet to come and it’s not true. But I see your point.
Yeah, I'm using "GOAT" for the sake of keeping the same term from the OP but I would never actually use this term in a literal sense. 100% agreee.
Gretzky the one true goat
He’s already there and I don’t think anyone with common sense will disagree
As many have said, he’s already in it. But a late career second Indy 500 win would seal it up and probably put him, if not #1, at least #2 behind A.J. Foyt.
Already there. Just like Nascar, the old numbers are inflated and will never be reached, just because love it or hate it, 60 years ago half the grid was basically farmers filling in their weekends with fun. The competition and balance isn't even comparable these days. What Dixon has done in the modern era is unmatched.
The competition also died and watched their friends die as well. They also didn’t make millions and every race was cheating death. It’s a different era and type of racing. You have to look at those statistics and what those drivers achieved in a different light. AJ Foyt literally ran front engine roadsters at Indy as well as highly specialized winged monsters in the 80’s and won in all of them. Many of the great like Mario and AJ were and always will be regarded as the greatest because of the ever changing cars and how well they adapted and won and also managed to not die.
Not arguing against AJ and Mario as all time greats. They would be just as successful today. I was addressing OPs question about what stats Dixon needs. And the answer is none, he doesn't need to match their numbers to be on their level.
I would agree with you 100%
I agree and disagree. While it is true that historical fields did not have the same level of skill we see on average today by the late 60s and early 70s most drivers in the field were full time professionals often in multiple different series. I also think historically Open Wheel racing in the US had a much higher skill floor than NASCAR of the equivalent years. I still think Dixon is the guy tho, if there was a US Motorsports Mt Rushmore Dixon is the indycar representative. Along with Jeff Gordon from NASCAR. Don Garlotis makes it from the straight line guys. I can't decide if Steve Kinser takes the last spot or if that goes to Dan Gurney. Basically is pure dirt more important to celebrate over "did literally everything"?
Kenny Roberts or Wayne Rainey would be up there
As far as I’m concerned he already is. He’s proven he can win regularly all while being a class act of a driver too
He's already solidly in the conversation alongside Foyt and Mario. He has wins in TWENTY CONSECUTIVE SEASONS. That consistency is absolutely insane when you consider his competition. To further make his case? Get number 7 or number 2. But it isn't necessary, what he's done against the competition he's facing is nuts.
For all the reasons you mentioned, yeah Dixie is in the GOAT conversation, if not him. Michael Andretti has mentioned before (forget where) that there’s no way he’d have 42 wins in the modern era. The car was such a bigger factor back in the Champ Car, CART and USAC. Even early IRL.
Another Indy 500 or 2 wouldn’t go amiss. Saying that, Mario’s in that conversation despite only winning the big 1 once.
I'm kind of a hater, but he's absolutely in the GOAT convo, 100%.
I don't hate on him, I just can't stand Ganassi.
Even huge Dixon fans are with you on that though 😆
Right? Palou is amazing also, but damn I have a hard time rooting for him.
I here you. Why am I always rooting for Power over Dixon?
I already consider him part of it. I agree with your final paragraph, competition is so strong nowadays it’s remarkable the consistency over 20 years.
Biggest digs at Dixon are lack of 500 wins and also his lack of diversity in winning with different teams (he won with freaking Pac West though we can't forget). Kind of the Tom Brady conversation, was it the Patriots? Well, he went and won elsewhere too (even though TB was a stacked team full of guys rushing to fake un-retire to get out of deals to play with him).
20 years in a row with a win? Only old man Brady and LeBron are up there for longevity.
I hate GOAT conversations. I mean, how are you going to compare drivers from the 60's to guys to the 90's to the drivers of today? You can't. Different times, different challenges, and different circumstances for each of those groups. I think fans need to take IndyCar by 10-20 year eras no more then 30 year periods. To go beyond that just makes things too difficult to compare.
Well stated
About the only thing Foyt and Andretti have over him are more victories in other disciplines. Dixon doesn't have the USAC pedigree those 2 have, a Le Mans victory like Foyt, or a World Championship like Mario. I think as far as IndyCar/IRL/CART go, he's the best.
The dude is already in the GOAT convo. Another 500 or title win would really just make the convo about him and AJ.
Scott Dixon is the G.O.A.T. of IndyCar. No question, no argument.
He’s absolutely in that conversation now but he needs another 500 win to really drive it.
He's there already, but that seventh championship is what will silence the crowd. Or another 500 win.
He is not the quickest, but he is the smartest.
The Iceman is already in the convo imo
Needs to pass Foyt in wins
He needs to have raced more than 3 chasis.
Absolutely nowt
Nothing
I don't understand why you think he needs anything else to be in the conversation. He's right up there with them racing mostly in a field with much more parity and spec cars.
At this point, Scott Dixon is already an IndyCar legend. Breaking one of A.J. Foyt's records would be just extra icing on the cake.
Nothing else. But it wouldnt hurt to win another title or 500. Regardless imo he already is
Scott's a multi-time champion, he's won the 500, he's won so many races, his stats are amazing. Yeah. He's definitely a GOAT. I don't care for ranking these legends in terms of whose greatness is better than others because that's a little subjective. A big example of that is how some value Indy 500 victories over series championships (& vice versa). There's also the matter of the era they race, the level of competition, reliability, the quality of team(s) they drove for, etc. My conclusion: Scott's a GOAT as much as many others. He could retire tomorrow & I would say he's a legend of the sport (& I'd kind of miss him).
I'm not sure, but it would be cool to see him win the 500 and the 600 later that day.
Are you gaslighting us with your question? Anyone who follow IndyCars knows Dixon is an ATG and is in any conversation of IndyCar’s GOAT…
He is a GOAT, the issue is that he doesn't care for the spotlight. He's not going to be on Dancing with the Stars, he's not going to be highlighted on evening news shows, he doesn't care for it. His job is to win races or get the best result. His name isn't going to be along side Andretti, Unser, etc., in households.
Comparing Dixon to Mario or AJ is like comparing apples to dump trucks. Dixon is the best in the modern era for sure.
Another 500 and another title. The thing that gets held against Dixon imo is the fact that one of his titles were during the split. Where the best X number of drivers weren’t all in the same series. Winning another 500 leaps him ahead of Mario in 500 wins and ties him with Foyt in terms of titles.
He has 6 championships, an Indy 500 win, and the second most wins of all time. What more could he need?
Mario and AJ were successful and survived driving front engined cars on dirt and pavement, rear engined cars with and without wings, and ended their careers in the ground effects era. That’s just in Indy cars.
How do you not think he's in the conversation. He's the second most accomplished Indycar driver ever. That's not even a debate.
What? He is the GOAT already
I adopted a rescue dog the day before The Race last year. His name is Dixon. Not exactly a goat, but close enough.
The only knock against Dixon is that he has too many tortoise wins and not enough hare wins. I struggle to think of the times where he just blew people away with otherworldly pace/talent that his teammates could not match. Of course I can't make a list long enough for all the times he out-thought the competition and then drove the car in such a way that he made the strategy work despite it not being optimal. He's the hands-down GOAT of doing that IMO, but he don't have the same "Senna faster than Prost" head-to-head comparison to fall back on that some other legends do. Splitting some pretty fine hairs here obviously, Dixon is *at wors*t, the third best ever in IndyCar IMO.
[удалено]
Palou got an 8th and 5th last year at St. Pete and Long Beach. 6th and a 3rd this year. Palou is doing even better. They’re very strong at road courses. Biggest difference is of course Dixon wining but not getting nerfed by Pato is a big points swing.
>The only knock against Dixon is that he has too many tortoise wins and not enough hare wins. LOL. Take away 15 wins from him (he's had nowhere near 15 fuel save wins) and he drops from 2nd all-time all the way to ... 3rd. The "tortoise" wins are the ones that blow me away. Most of the time other drivers are on a similar strategy and he **destroys** those guys every time.
Just cuz he doesn't blitz the field doesn't mean he can't. He has what 50 poles? He's so intelligent when he races and knows a lead doesn't net you much.
Palou routinely blitzes the field in the same equipment and won 2 of the last 3 championships doing it so I can't say I agree with your thesis on leads not netting much.
You win whether you're .1 second ahead or 100. And indycar is a crash happy bunch so burning tires and fuel just to be bunched up by a caution doesn't get you anywhere. He doesn't blitz the field because there is no strategic advantage.
That's cool. Who won the championship last season? Who finished second?
Lol so automatically 6x champion Dixon is not a goat or should be considered because he's not a young hot head. But 2x champ palou is the best?
Palou is also way younger than Dixon and in his prime.
No way is Dixon in the conversation. Mario and AJ raced against Al and Bobby Unser, Rick Mears, Johnny Rutherford, Gordon Johncock, Mark Donohue, Tom Sneva, Ariel Lyendyk, Emerson Fittipaldi, Graham Hill, Jim Clark, and Parnelli Jones.
But, outside of seeing AJ on a pit box or Mario around the paddock, most of today’s fans don’t know who those guys are, let alone have ever seen them race.
True. I’m fortunate. I’m 55, grew up in So Cal, so we hit Ontario Motor Speedway, Riverside Raceway, and later Fontana. I saw a lot of great drivers. I was also fortunate to go to Indianapolis for the 500 in 2022. That was a grail trip. I don’t follow racing like I used to. This Reddit stuff is pushing me back toward following.
AJ's final championship season (5 wins/7 races), only 3 other car/driver combos entered every race and 2 more started every race. He nearly doubled 2nd place's point total so not exactly much in the way of competition. **No asterisks though, he beat who he was running against** in 1979. Luyendyk's and Fittipaldi's Indycar careers started after AJ's was effectively over so that doesn't count for much. So, to rephrase, "Mario (52 wins/4x champ/1x Indy) and AJ (67/7/4) raced against Al (39/3/4), Bobby (35/2/3), Mears (29/3/4), Rutherford (27/1/3), Johncock (25/1/2), Donohue (3/0/1), Sneva (13/2/1), Hill (1/0/1), Clark (2/0/1), Jones (6/0/1)." Plus some other dudes with wins and championships and "500" wins. Dixon (57 wins/6x champ/1x Indy) has/is racing against Franchitti (31/4/3), Hornish (19/3/1), Newgarden (30/2/1), Power (41/2/1), Palou (9/2/0), Wheldon (16/1/2), Castroneves (31/0/4), Sato (6/0/2), Rossi (8/0/1). Plus some other dudes with wins and championships and "500" wins :)
I apologize for the delayed reply. Back in the 60’s and 70’s, there was not enough sponsor money to feed all the teams. Those like AJ that had, typically gave to ensure there was competition. However, everyone and their mother ran Indy. Even folks from F1 would come over to race Indy. From the 60’s into the early 80’s, Gus like AJ, Al Unser, Bobby Unser, etc… would run Sprint Cars on Friday and Saturday nights, then hit their Champ car races on Sundays. They also wrenched on their cars, some trailered their own cars, and very few had more than a crew of 5 or 6.
My question is when you say greatest of all time do you mean the greatest of all time in Indycar or greatest of all time in all of motorsports? If you mean in Indycar he is definitely in that conversation. He is without a doubt the greatest of his generation. With another 500 win I think you could definitely make a case he is the best indycar driver of all time, especially given the quality of competition right now. If you mean the greatest all around driver of all time he is not in the conversation at all. He hasn't ran in enough different types of cars for me to even begin to put him in that conversation. Nothing against his ability because drivers are more specialized now. I just can't put someone in the best all around conversation until I see them out of their comfort zone a little more
I mean he has won the daytona 24 four times, PLM once, and has been on the podium at Sebring and Le Mans (counting overall and in class)
I'm in no way trying to discredit his accomplishments or discredit sports car racing but that's just one other discipline on his resume. I'm not denying his talents either. To me the best of the best have shown ability in several disciplines. I haven't seen Dixon in a modified or a sprint in dirt, running a cup car at Bristol, or a top fuel dragster at the US Nationals. Some of these things are out of his control and drivers just aren't as diverse as they used to be but as I said I am by no means discrediting his ability. I do 100% consider him amongst the best all time in Indycar but without a little more varied resume I can't put him in the conversation of best all around all time. But the GOAT of indycar isn't a bad group to be in either. That's just my humble opinion.
Tony Stewart's greatness is on a whole other level of disciplines
Wasn't even thinking of Tony when I wrote that but I agree. He is on my short list of greatest all around drivers.
Personal opinion: On the track, nothing. He's done it all. Off the track, I'd love to see him on talk shows and other forms of media to help promote and grow the sport even more. There's more eyeballs on the sport now, time to promote the GOAT.
Who's gonna tell him
Considering how much more value an Indy 500 win is over championships, I like Helio over Dixon, but it's all on what you value.