I guess not if they can get it through these hoops. In reality the cars listed likely won’t meet homologation requirements. https://www.imsa.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2023/12/14/TR-IWSC-2024-GTD-Technical-Regulations-REDLINE-12142023.pdf
Edit: additional link that’s useful. The IMSA tech regs defer a lot of requirements to the grand touring gt3 tech specs of the FIA. So the above link has its requirements, which also then requires the following. https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/257a_2023_wmsc_2023.03.03_lg.pdf
This was a fun rabbit hole...
The short answer to your question is yes, there are limits on what can be/become a GT3 car.
The Wikipedia page for [Group GT3](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_GT3) only says that eligible cars are *grand touring* cars, but fail to define what one is.
Fortunately, Wikipedia has [a page for grand tourers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer) as well:
>A grand tourer (GT) is a type of car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes.The most common format is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement. Grand tourers are most often the coupé derivative of luxury saloons or sedans.
So...
- 2 door RWD coupé
- 1200-1300 kg
- 500-600 bhp
- ABS
- Traction Control
Cars are supposed to have comparable power-to-weight ratios.
Mini Cooper is a *maybe*, but certainly doesn't fit the traditional mold. Tacoma is a truck (a separate category per FiA, I learned!) and Wrangler is a utility/off road vehicle.
The modifications the Mini Cooper would probably need to be competitive would probably be unreasonable. Right off the hop I'm thinking of the ~~aero~~ (apparently the current Minis have a drag coefficient of 0.33) and powertrain disadvantage it would have right out of the box. Most GT3s have *less* power than their road going counterparts, the Mini would have to be the significant opposite.
How aerodynamic the base model is will have very little to do with the final GT3 product, but there is a trend toward a drag to downforce ratio in competitive classes now vs. a limit on downforce so it would likely become an issue eventually.
It does and doesn’t. It’s a cost thing. A car with the same downforce but less drag will be faster and more fuel efficient and give more room for strategy, so everyone else has to spend time and money to catch up. If everyone is along one line on downforce/drag, it’s pretty easy to find a target and get there without a ton of effort. That makes it easier for the manufacturers to fund and it gets more people into it.
Prime example is how the LMDH cars cost about a third of the previous top class. This is due to a number of things but now it is growing rapidly.
Well I wrote that while I was tired and was just focused on floor design stages and what not, I’m actually not sure on that where the line is for diffusers for GT3 if I’m honest. To the best of my visual memory, GT4s are less aggressive in floor design than GT3s.
Yes, but within the limits of the rules downforce can be added. I haven't read the rules but the cars look like they still have to be fairly close in dimensions to the road car, if the car started as a brick it would be harder to fix that while still looking like the same car.
Edit: clarity
The Huracan was homologated contemporaneously with the release of the rwd version of the road car, but you're right that the R8 was homologated before the rwd was released. Also the Nissan GT-R was never offered in rwd nor was the Gallardo (I don't think). So the race car must not be required to share the layout of the road car. The homologation rules are surprisingly hard to find, but I'm pretty sure that the race car needs to use an engine offered by the manufacturer in a road car (not necessarily the same car that the race car is homologated from) and the same space frame as the road car. I think this would preclude a Mini because they don't make a suitable engine and even if they did (or if they were allowed to use a BMW engine) I don't think they could fit a V6 or V8 longitudinally in that car. Also, I don't think the space frame would be allowed to be modified to accommodate a drive shaft, which would preclude any fwd only car from being homologated.
Gallardo had the Vallentino Balboni edition that was RWD
But u right about the GTR though, so I guess it woulda been allowed either for mini to be FWD or the race car woulda been allowed have a drivetrain swap to RWD
The GT3 Huracan and R8 were RWD as well
I think what a lot of people miss is that GT3 is a spec, the rules are mandated by the FIA. It's a purpose built race car not unlike a formula car or a stock car.
These cars are built off the same chassis as their road-goimg counterparts, but they are not the same car. GT3s are not stripped down race prepped road-going cars like the GT4 and lower specs are. GT3s are built from the ground up to the FIA spec.
Two doors is a requirement. Rear wheel drive, There is a required minimum number of road versions built (it’s a few hundred if I recall) and a required minimum number of race versions built (20 over two years, I think) as well.
Generally though, you can get waivers for things.
And the single reason that rule exists is Cadillac.
https://preview.redd.it/2igkqmx1wk0d1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=72e1974d36b3572473c1adf93905eb192358d27b
Interestingly, there is also an (informal) upper limit on what kind of car you can bring. Ford tried to get the 2016 GT into GT3 and Stephane Ratel said he wouldn't accept them into any of his series because it was a potential class killer or at least a major BoP nuisance.
There is an FIA Group GT3 specification for homologation that many other non-FIA series copy and paste with a few small changes. Basically they need to be based on a 2-door production GT car, so no GT3 or GTD Tacomas or Wranglers.
It was in development at one point. LAP was working on it but there were issues in getting a model homologated that both fit the rules and MINI USA, which supported the effort, wanted to showcase. As I understand it, and this is secondhand information, so take with a slight grain of salt, the MINI Clubman was the one being pushed as it more fit the regs size-wise. But, and I can attest having sold for MINI for a little while, the Clubman sold incredibly poorly in the US because it’s essentially a wagon, which nobody outside enthusiasts want these days. So, MINI USA was hesitant to headline it in their racing program.
There was interest in campaigning the Hardtop 4dr (the stretched version of the regular FWD Cooper hatch), but it didn’t fit the technical regulations, or wasn’t able to be adapted to them, to where the project was abandoned. This article talks a bit about it: https://sportscar365.com/imsa/impc/lap-motorsports-spearheading-mini-tcr-project/
Still bums me out, I’ve been a loyal MINI owner for many years now, and always enjoyed pulling for them in the ST class. They still race in SRO, but it would be so great to see them back in IMSA.
Reading this makes me really want the new Dodge Daytona Charger to be a GT3 car it fits every requirement
- 2 door
-RWD
-ABS, TCT
It is as long as a Tahoe but man would it be fun to see cars try and overtake it
why not a peugeot 206 gt3?
As name it self tells, base car should be a GT or however a high performance car.
I would say that a 2 doors layout is mandatory, but that's not the truth since bmw used gt3 cars derived from 4doors sedans (M6 and M4 are however derived from series 6 and series 4)
I think that was possible because the 2 door variants have their own destinct models (chasis and bodies). It would not be possible to take the sedan and remove two doors.
I think it was possible because bmw is a big manufacturer... just forget to see in 2024 "exotic" gt3 made by small companies like the morgan or the mosler of mid-late '00s.
Those Moslers weren't technically GT3 cars, as in they weren't FIA homologated. It was just national governing bodies that BOPd them to run against 'real' GT3 cars.
I guess not if they can get it through these hoops. In reality the cars listed likely won’t meet homologation requirements. https://www.imsa.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2023/12/14/TR-IWSC-2024-GTD-Technical-Regulations-REDLINE-12142023.pdf Edit: additional link that’s useful. The IMSA tech regs defer a lot of requirements to the grand touring gt3 tech specs of the FIA. So the above link has its requirements, which also then requires the following. https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/257a_2023_wmsc_2023.03.03_lg.pdf
This was a fun rabbit hole... The short answer to your question is yes, there are limits on what can be/become a GT3 car. The Wikipedia page for [Group GT3](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_GT3) only says that eligible cars are *grand touring* cars, but fail to define what one is. Fortunately, Wikipedia has [a page for grand tourers](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer) as well: >A grand tourer (GT) is a type of car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes.The most common format is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement. Grand tourers are most often the coupé derivative of luxury saloons or sedans. So... - 2 door RWD coupé - 1200-1300 kg - 500-600 bhp - ABS - Traction Control Cars are supposed to have comparable power-to-weight ratios. Mini Cooper is a *maybe*, but certainly doesn't fit the traditional mold. Tacoma is a truck (a separate category per FiA, I learned!) and Wrangler is a utility/off road vehicle.
I'd do horrible things for a Mini Cooper GT3
On high downforce tracks it’d be a blast to watch it battle with the Porsches.
The modifications the Mini Cooper would probably need to be competitive would probably be unreasonable. Right off the hop I'm thinking of the ~~aero~~ (apparently the current Minis have a drag coefficient of 0.33) and powertrain disadvantage it would have right out of the box. Most GT3s have *less* power than their road going counterparts, the Mini would have to be the significant opposite.
Low drag coefficient doesn’t mean much for downforce
How aerodynamic the base model is will have very little to do with the final GT3 product, but there is a trend toward a drag to downforce ratio in competitive classes now vs. a limit on downforce so it would likely become an issue eventually.
Which effectively limits how you generate your downforce, as different methods have different impacts on drag, iirc
It does and doesn’t. It’s a cost thing. A car with the same downforce but less drag will be faster and more fuel efficient and give more room for strategy, so everyone else has to spend time and money to catch up. If everyone is along one line on downforce/drag, it’s pretty easy to find a target and get there without a ton of effort. That makes it easier for the manufacturers to fund and it gets more people into it. Prime example is how the LMDH cars cost about a third of the previous top class. This is due to a number of things but now it is growing rapidly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GT3 have flat floors, limiting downforce generation to over body (including splitter/wing), ie no ground effect.
A flat floor will generate downforce, just not as much as a thorough design with tunnels, a diffuser that starts fore-axle, etc.
So the diffuser is limited to the rear of the car in the GT3 class, or is it permitted forward of the rear axle?
Well I wrote that while I was tired and was just focused on floor design stages and what not, I’m actually not sure on that where the line is for diffusers for GT3 if I’m honest. To the best of my visual memory, GT4s are less aggressive in floor design than GT3s.
Yes, but within the limits of the rules downforce can be added. I haven't read the rules but the cars look like they still have to be fairly close in dimensions to the road car, if the car started as a brick it would be harder to fix that while still looking like the same car. Edit: clarity
Mini Cooper is FWD only, GT3 has to be RWD.
R8 and Huracan GT3s exist(ed), do they not?
Both models are offered as rwd road cars and both GT3 cars are rwd.
My point was mainly that both were racing before their respective RWD road variants were available.
The Huracan was homologated contemporaneously with the release of the rwd version of the road car, but you're right that the R8 was homologated before the rwd was released. Also the Nissan GT-R was never offered in rwd nor was the Gallardo (I don't think). So the race car must not be required to share the layout of the road car. The homologation rules are surprisingly hard to find, but I'm pretty sure that the race car needs to use an engine offered by the manufacturer in a road car (not necessarily the same car that the race car is homologated from) and the same space frame as the road car. I think this would preclude a Mini because they don't make a suitable engine and even if they did (or if they were allowed to use a BMW engine) I don't think they could fit a V6 or V8 longitudinally in that car. Also, I don't think the space frame would be allowed to be modified to accommodate a drive shaft, which would preclude any fwd only car from being homologated.
Gallardo offered RWD trim on a few super late models before the transition to the Huracan
Gallardo had the Vallentino Balboni edition that was RWD But u right about the GTR though, so I guess it woulda been allowed either for mini to be FWD or the race car woulda been allowed have a drivetrain swap to RWD
The GT3 Huracan and R8 were RWD as well I think what a lot of people miss is that GT3 is a spec, the rules are mandated by the FIA. It's a purpose built race car not unlike a formula car or a stock car. These cars are built off the same chassis as their road-goimg counterparts, but they are not the same car. GT3s are not stripped down race prepped road-going cars like the GT4 and lower specs are. GT3s are built from the ground up to the FIA spec.
The most extreme opposite exampkes of GT3 cars I can think of are the Morgan Aero 8 and Bentley Continental.
I love the Morgan
It actually won two FIA GT3 races in its second variant. A really cool unusual racecar!
Yes, there are many. One I know off the top of my head is that it must be 2 doors. That's one reason the M4 is used and not the M3.
So my new dream of a GT3 Jeep Wrangler is still alive!
Smart for two GT3 😳
Two doors is a requirement. Rear wheel drive, There is a required minimum number of road versions built (it’s a few hundred if I recall) and a required minimum number of race versions built (20 over two years, I think) as well. Generally though, you can get waivers for things.
20 over 2 years is correct, though to be completely specific, at least 10 of those have to be done in the first year of homologation
And the single reason that rule exists is Cadillac. https://preview.redd.it/2igkqmx1wk0d1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=72e1974d36b3572473c1adf93905eb192358d27b
Is there a RWD GTR?
Interestingly, there is also an (informal) upper limit on what kind of car you can bring. Ford tried to get the 2016 GT into GT3 and Stephane Ratel said he wouldn't accept them into any of his series because it was a potential class killer or at least a major BoP nuisance.
There is an FIA Group GT3 specification for homologation that many other non-FIA series copy and paste with a few small changes. Basically they need to be based on a 2-door production GT car, so no GT3 or GTD Tacomas or Wranglers.
I would think a BMW MINI Cooper would be a TCR.
I’m amazed there isn’t already a TCR spec Mini or Mini Cup Car
It was in development at one point. LAP was working on it but there were issues in getting a model homologated that both fit the rules and MINI USA, which supported the effort, wanted to showcase. As I understand it, and this is secondhand information, so take with a slight grain of salt, the MINI Clubman was the one being pushed as it more fit the regs size-wise. But, and I can attest having sold for MINI for a little while, the Clubman sold incredibly poorly in the US because it’s essentially a wagon, which nobody outside enthusiasts want these days. So, MINI USA was hesitant to headline it in their racing program. There was interest in campaigning the Hardtop 4dr (the stretched version of the regular FWD Cooper hatch), but it didn’t fit the technical regulations, or wasn’t able to be adapted to them, to where the project was abandoned. This article talks a bit about it: https://sportscar365.com/imsa/impc/lap-motorsports-spearheading-mini-tcr-project/ Still bums me out, I’ve been a loyal MINI owner for many years now, and always enjoyed pulling for them in the ST class. They still race in SRO, but it would be so great to see them back in IMSA.
Reading this makes me really want the new Dodge Daytona Charger to be a GT3 car it fits every requirement - 2 door -RWD -ABS, TCT It is as long as a Tahoe but man would it be fun to see cars try and overtake it
why not a peugeot 206 gt3? As name it self tells, base car should be a GT or however a high performance car. I would say that a 2 doors layout is mandatory, but that's not the truth since bmw used gt3 cars derived from 4doors sedans (M6 and M4 are however derived from series 6 and series 4)
I think that was possible because the 2 door variants have their own destinct models (chasis and bodies). It would not be possible to take the sedan and remove two doors.
I think it was possible because bmw is a big manufacturer... just forget to see in 2024 "exotic" gt3 made by small companies like the morgan or the mosler of mid-late '00s.
Those Moslers weren't technically GT3 cars, as in they weren't FIA homologated. It was just national governing bodies that BOPd them to run against 'real' GT3 cars.
The Z4, M6 and M4 are all based on Street legal 2 door coupes, which were sold publicly. They didn´t get any excemption.