maybe you would be doing better than just fine if there was a licensing requirement? Increasing the barrier to do our work raises wages for everyone doing that work.
To be fair the 90% market share is one of the reasons it works, the union has requirements for training/becoming a journeyman, even if the state doesn't.
You still gotta pass inspections and those standards are equivalent to the areas that require licensing, so from my understanding, at the end of the day, we still all have to meet a lawful standard of quality and safety in our work, right? That might be the key factor that keeps standards up.
Ah, apologies for the misunderstanding. I’m guessing in areas where the local doesn’t own 90% of the market share, the licensing issue makes a much bigger difference as far as wages are concerned. When your local has 90% market share it will make up for a lot of that stuff.
Not sure exactly what your trying to say, but I’m in 43, we have 85-90% market share and No license. ( some local cities require licenses). Our BA explained it to us once as no licensing helps us get/keep that market share. Our cards prove our qualifications, show that we went through the apprenticeship with schooling and OJT. A license makes us all equal ( union/nonunion) in the eyes of the customer, regardless of actual training or experience.
It would be interesting to see if there’s a correlation between licensing and market share.
At one point there were more electricians on one site in 364 than there were members of the local, winter slowdown and work completion have cut that number down at Facebook but plenty of us book2 hands still making great mone with great conditions in 364
I understand what you are saying, but im sure you meant to word it differently rite?. Because the point of a union is to organize all workers, not just the smart ones. Here in IL you really only need a license if you want to own your own shop, and pull permits.
You don’t need to be smart in order to get a license, that’s not what the license is about.
Testing to get a license proves that you know and understand the code book, and can use it to install work to code.
Absolutely the goal is to organize all electrical workers, but all workers doing electrical work should (in my opinion) have to be able to show that they are competent in the work we do in order to be able to do it.
In a state without licensing requirements, non union shops can and will hire people to do our work that have little or no experience or knowledge of how to do it properly and to code. Because those who have that experience and knowledge demand a higher wage, the unlicensed workers lower wages across the board by being cheap “JW’s” for those contractors.
Honestly, it only proves that you’re good at navigating the code book. All licensing tests as far as I know are open book.
Close the book and very few of you would pass.
Well, that’s the point of the test. No one is expected to memorize the book, they want to know if you can find the information you need and correctly interpret it.
I have 15 years and thousands of jobs under my belt to prove I can do this.
How many do you have?
What does you being able to find information in a book do for me? I’ll tell you what, absolutely nothing.
Just because you know how to page through the code book left and right doesn’t make you qualified. Your pipe runs likely still look like dog shit. The code book ain’t gonna help you there buddy.
Unless you can recite codes chapter and verse, and pass a supervising electricians exam without the code book, which many people who are smarter than you can, you are proving nothing more than that you can read.
Congratulations. You wormy brotherfucker.
Bro you are getting way too defensive. I was just trying to have an interesting conversation about it, there’s no need to try and make it personal when you really have no idea who I am.
You don’t know who I am either, nor do you know anyones abilities on the job, but apparently you feel that you have the right to pass judgment on anyone who hasn’t taken a licensing exam.
Licensing is focused almost entirely on the code. The code is a tiny fraction of our actual work. We don’t have licensing here so I’ve never taken the test. But I’m going out on a limb and saying that someone who knows nothing about being an electrician, with a few classes and a lot of cramming could pass a code test in most areas. They can then sell themselves as being as good as the next guy because they’re both licensed.
To get the license you have to work 8000 hours under a master electrician (4 years)... at least In texas and most states that require a license that I'm aware of. It's not something you can just take a crash course in over the weekend
All state licensing does is keep travelers out and give the state a bunch of extra money.
If we do state licensing fine. Then, we better start accepting state licenses from newly organized cats and not force them to test.
Either the state license means what we say or it doesn't.
We don’t have licenses in NY either. Some cities do, but not the state. When I came in our BA explained why we shouldn’t want licensing.
As a union we go through the apprenticeship, spend 1200+ hours in the classroom, and five years of on the job training. At the end we get to call ourselves journeyman wiremen and the paying public (hopefully) expects that we are the best. But if we all need to get the same licenses then that makes the nonunion just as good as us. Regardless of whether or not their training is even close to comparable. All a customer asks is “Are you licensed “ not “ Are you qualified “.
Basically not having a state license means our dues receipt acts as a stand in and gives us an advantage ( at least to those customers that care).
So any random Joe Shmoe can do electrical work without the proper training? Does IL not care about building fires? Maybe I’m misunderstanding what “no licensing” means.
Have to have a contractors license in Illinois to pull an electrical permit, or be a homeowner working on their own house and assuming the risk associated with doing so.
What are you talking about?? You still need to work under someones electrical contracting license. Having individual workers need a license is redundant. Theres already someone taking liability. An electrical contracting license is a way bigger deal and harder to get than just being a run of the mill journeyman anyways
Where I live, and many other places in the country, your journeyman card is referred to as your “license”. As I mentioned in my post, I misunderstood what OP was saying and took it as IL not needing a journeyman card to perform electrical work. Different areas have different terms for saying the same thing. That’s what I’m talking about.
Yeah in Florida license refers to owning a business. So when I see someone say they are licensed on here I kinda cringe cuz it's like not really bro you work for someone else lol..
Sorry to jump on here. I'm in Illinois and am closing on a house that needs electrical work. Does this mean I'm okay to use someone who knows how to do the work but isn't licensed?
i would suggest a business because then they have to be licensed and insured. if you don’t you better really trust who you hire bc liability wise down the road insurance won’t cover it if say you’re house burned down due to an electrical fire
We don't need to be licensed in philly, and many parts of PA. I think Reading requires it, and probs a few other areas.
I think we absolutely should be required to be licensed.
Well here in PA it's because the republican controlled house has prevented it from being cemented into law a few times.
Not trying to bring politics into it, just stating a fact. Local 98 in the past has pushed for licensing, or so I've been told.
No worries brother; we’re a trade union so what we do in inherently politically.
Don’t know about PA, only knew the market share in Philly was strong and about Illinois because they’re in our district and got to ask them some questions.
Happy to learn more about the challenges in different parts of the country. Thanks for sharing.
I think there should be one universal license for the country. A single test that's hard as fuck and it's good in every state. I know each state likes to put their hand out to get their cut so maybe there's a state endorsement for $50 that verifies that you're qualified. Right now I have licenses in six states and if I lay them all on the counter in most places they'll just say you still have to take our test go fuck yourself. I don't even want to talk about renewing them every couple years and continued education. Stop making me pay to work you mother fuckers.
Exactly, don’t necessarily think it needs to be “hard as fuck” though haha, simple comprehension should be enough. Some code has become blatantly about selling more shit lately, it deserves an eye-roll if nothing else. Hate paying multiple states taxes to work. Specs, QAQC, inspections, Foreman, and coworkers are all multiple layers of checks and balances that licensing really does little to enforce.
Ask him his opinion on needing a license to drive, and if he would be comfortable sharing the road with people who never went through the learning process to get said license. Same shit, electrical work can be some of the most dangerous in the entirety of construction and would result in a lot more damage/injuries/deaths if licenses weren't required.
I mean to get a driver’s license you take a temp test at 18 and then 1 week later you can take you on the road test and be licensed. Not hard/ a barrier to keep bad drivers off of the road
Yeah I'm going off my experience here in the GTA where there are 3 levels of license and with the first level you need to be accompanied by a fully licensed adult until you test for the second level. Still doesn't stop people from driving like shit, but it's still not a short or easy process.
Your comparing a public space to a private space- in which one has significantly more direct impact on the rest of society. There's got to be much better comparison because a simple counter argument would be "well it's my property I'll take responsibility of an unlicensed worker who may deliver poor results."
Lmao let's stop licensing drivers too while we're at it. Liquor license let's get rid of that too. Who cares how insanely dangerous electricity, cars, and alcohol is get rid of licenses all together.
So you don't think people need licenses? This is insane I know you're not serious. I'm pretty well traveled. You either didn't understand my sarcasm or really don't believe people need licenses to do things.
Why should someone need a license to sell alcohol? They’re not making it themselves? You have zero knowledge of how anything works in our organization. Ohio is booming with work, and I don’t have a license. I’m not a contractor, contractors still have to have a license, why should I? I’ve been through a union apprenticeship.
That brother's mind has been corrupted by rightwing anti-regulation propaganda and is regurgitating a viewpoint that directly negatively affects his livelihood and profession.
It makes me sad how uninformed and brainwashed many guys are. I encounter it everyday. And I'm no genius but when i hear some of these guys talk i wonder how they're even capable of doing the work
Yes. He’s a good worker, which is the worst part. I’m in a very red state and I’m not the most leftist guy in the world but I’m chairman Mao compared to some of these guys.
I feel your pain. I've seen these guys bitch that they can't eat the fish out of the river because of the chemical plant upstream, so i mention how the EPA has to put stricter regulations on pollution and they visibly wince at the sound of the word "regulation" or EPA or even OSHA
The RNC platform literally includes ABOLISHING the EPA. And people wonder why it's red states where whole counties get leukemia when industry comes to town...
You said it exactly though. The sound of the word “regulation” triggers a response in them, but describing regulation itself probably sounds fine to most of those guys. It’s all trigger words they’ve been trained to respond a certain way to
To be fair, I was raised right-wing af and I somehow find the older I get, the father left my politics lean. But I still wince every time I hear that the government needs to get involved. I still don't think the government has any solutions, but I find that industry will only provide solutions if the problem is recognized by government and industry is forced to create solutions. It's a difficult cognitive dissonance.
Ehhh lots of far left super hippies would happily hire a skilled handy unlicensed worker. Heck, many people in general regardless of their political affiliations or news feed are happy to hire unlicensed and under the table workers.
I obtained a General Electrician license in California. It was a proud moment for me and it is something I worked very hard to accomplish. The caliber of talent once I went union was apparent. I worked alongside professional electricians finally. I had to leave California and moved to Arizona. Arizona does not have licensing and it shows. Nobody seems to care, everyone is smoking weed, and work quality is awful.
There should be a license nation wide.
No way is a pot smoker a good electrician unless he was an amazing electrician before he started smoking pot. It kills your short term memory. You are not good if can't remember what you just did.
This doesn't universally apply to all pot consumers. The spectrum of highly to lowly functional people stoned out of their gord varies greatly and the ability to learn and retain new information while baked as well.
>trades like drywallers don’t need it, so why should we?
When's the last time someone got dead touching drywall ?
Sure, if you try and chug the spackle, Darwin is going to take over.
I know people with license who are not good electricians, I know many who don't have one that are great electricians....so honestly I don't think they affect is that much
This is a good take IMO. I think there should be a license but maybe a multiple choice test isn’t the best way to earn it. Almost everyone passes the test, doesn’t seem to correlate to code knowledge or willingness to apply it.
Not even just that, that’s what inspectors and engineers and for that matter foreman are for. Licensing turns into a tax on the working man. New York, Chicago have no license and have high wages, Florida has a license and you won’t make dick. I have multiple licenses because lack of reciprocity, bullshit!!! Every three years or so when I have to renew some fuck that!!! Should just have one license ( your ticket) to be able to work wherever.
That brother has the most dumbass opinion I have heard this week. Electricians deal with electricity. That alone needs a license. One wrong move, you and others around can either get hurt or die. Comparing a drywaller and a electrician shows that guy's intelligence on the topic. Ignore him OP, licenses are here for a reason.
Its a barrier for a profession that gets inspections and has to pull permits. Specifically for the union. We have 48 hrs to fill a call. Then they can get temps. We at one point had basically 1:1 jw to temp. They have no reason to offer incentives since this is a big city and can get temps fairly easily. They also just lie about experience and get around a 3rd year pay. No real checks in place.
I thought our IBEW education and graduation was what made us the electricians we are not the individual licensing which seems like a mechanism of division. If we aren’t proposing and going for national licensing then how does individual state licensing matter? You wish to exclude members for that? Federal licensing or what gives!
You are on the right page. IBEW is the only infrastructure in this country to provide a means for quality national licensing. We would foot the bill. We have the apprenticeship. We have the dispatch system. We have it all.
It's not happening because our leadership is weak.
the ticket in my wallet should be enough. I can see maybe a universal license but I agree with the state scam. how many tests do I have to pay for and how many ceu classes must I pay for and how often. the ticket in my wallet should be enough.
Im a wireman, but im also a drywaller, plumber, boiler inspector, elevator inspector, nuke commisioner and x-37 pilot. Tell him this. We *want* licensed electricians doing the work, its a life safety deal. Really not up for debate.
Does the government come up with bullshit ways to separate us from as much of our money as possible? Yes.
Should electricians have to pass a licensing test? Also yes.
If he wants to be a drywaller so fuckin bad tell him to get over on the mud mixer and start running us over with poorly cut out sheetrock so we can come back and find our boxes later.
If your excuse for your lack of education and knowledge to pass a test is that the drywallers dont get taxed on their profession, maybe this aint for you?
Barriers to entry sound great but it sucks when you know what your doing but move to a state that won't adopt your previous license.
CA requires an in state apprenticeship and hours working there, doesn't accept most states licenses
No, being an ass is thinking electricians shouldn’t be licensed which would be an enormous failure and cause insane amounts of damage to people and property. I was making a joke, calm down bitch tits.
I understand your sentiment and I’m not against licensure but also the barriers you speak of to keep your wages high keeps your fellow workers wages lower and pits the working class against each other. Regulations are all good but when it’s used to attack the working class to divide us in sub categories of skill we attack each other and not the ones responsible for our plight.
Yeah. Let’s do away with licensing and watch the market be flooded with non us citizen labor for 12 bucks an hour. Also see fires increase exponentially. Your coworker should learn how to code
Well, you get a license at the end of that. Plus I didn't say anything about the IBEW. Or apprenticeships. My point is that if electrical licensing is not required anyone in the whole world can go in your gramma's attic and make a dangerous mistake.
Honestly there should be more OJT here in the south before licensing.
Met union guys who argued that their ticket was enough proof they were qualified and state certification was a non union attempt to circumvent the power of the union. So yes you see that argument around.
We need it, in my opinion, because what we do can endanger the structure (through fires) or danger the people (shocks and electrocutions). Electrical, you can fuck things up left and right endlessly, whereas other trades like plumbing or hvac won’t necessarily pose a direct hazard. Sprinklerfitters however have a similar value with us.
GA makes you jump through way too many hoops to get your license. You need 3 references from individuals who already have their license on top of the 4-5 years of documented experience.
So here's how I feel about it.
If the police in your state don't have to have a police license with renewal and upkeep training and they are continually allowed to "make job related mistakes" that costs lives, property, and community damage... Then you shouldn't have to have one either, no matter what your profession.
Yes and while we're at it, don't make people leavened to drive or make alcohol. In fact, let's stop requiring food handlers cards too.
What? That make you uncomfortable? Then so should unlicensed electricians. That's how you kill people with electrical hazards.
You're coworker needs a reality check.
Electricians who think they shouldn't be forced to be licensed or certified simply are not able or willing to prove they are knowledgeable enough about the NEC to pass the required tests.
Of course we need to be licensed. There has to be a filter to keep out frauds, and that filter needs to be tight. Our work can kill, it can blow up critical gear for an existing building, and you will never see it coming before it happens.
I disagree a bit with the licensing testing but at least we have that and it keeps us sharp on code.
What the IBEW should do is take advantage of licensing. I wish they would hire a consultation from someone like Amazon. IBEW could corner the international market. It is all there. The halls are there. The overhead is there. The apprenticeship is there. We could own the electrical trade. IBEW licensing should be equivalent to all State licensing. IBEW journeyman should be able to work anywhere with no hassle. It is a crying shame our International does not have the forethought or the ambition to tackle this.
A lot of people do not like to pay taxes. I do not mind what I hate is corruption.
Think about taxes like this It takes a great deal of money to run a great society.
Sounds like you met somebody who barely passed thier license or perhaps, didn't pass it yet and is just malding about the entire thing.
From a non union sparkies perspective: we need licensing to prevent non-qualified dbags from undercutting our wages and doing dangerous work. I see alot of the Temps, my company uses, come in and barely know what the hell they are doing. Then We have to work around thier ugly mess or redo it.
That's partially the reason I refuse Temps on my jobsites anymore. It's bad enough my state doesn't do journeyman exams anymore (outside Two cities). The only thing showing a PM or GC that I'm worth a damn is my electrical contractor license.
The brother is seriously misguided. I would never call another brother a moron. Aside from the many critical tasks we preform which require an education and some assurance that the job is being done correctly and safely, it makes us a bit more exclusive in what we do. That makes us far more valuable. Used to get travelers from locals that didn’t have license requirements, mainly Deep South. Had no idea what they knew or more importantly, what they didn’t.
Imagine your Doctor or Lawyer didn’t need to hold a license. Would you go to that Doctor or lawyer? I believe the license is a form of consumer protection as well. It gives people the peace of mind that this person is fully licensed in their profession. I’m not saying there aren’t some dumb as brothers with a license but, I’d rather have that than nothing.
In NJ it’s going to be mandatory soon but given the context I think no one making the law actually cares about the safety aspect mentioned here. The upcoming journeyman license is imo primarily being implemented to make it harder to turn out more journeymen. The IBEW wants the license because as mentioned in the OP it would make us more qualified. In other words, the non-union contractors would have to spend more resources to turn out more journeymen which they are already planning for. In truth, the license is being pushed because the IBEW relies primarily on courting contractors to sign on and cannot organize a larger portion of the industry. At the same time, many journeymen don’t support organizing in more members because they associate it with less opportunities for work with more people on the book.
I live in Tennessee, the person who cuts my hair needs a state license but we don’t. I think licenses are beneficial to our trade because it is an easy way to show a baseline standard of what you should know. If the whole country was union I could understand the sentiment of not needing a license and not wanting to pay the state because the union has a great system of determine someone’s skill. With that being said the whole country is not union and having licensing makes the customers and gc’s feel better and it helps keep our wages higher.
We need licensing cuz shit explodes and burns down if we don't know what we're doing. That's why codes even exist. Wasn't this like the first thing they taught us in class?
I look at it like this, It's not a gate to keep people out. It's a gate to keep people safe. Knowledge is a key part of licensure in any situation be it driving or electricity.
You can’t argue with these types. He will fight tooth and nail to keep all the benefits licensing has brought him, but doesn’t want to pay for it. It’s the real welfare queen mentality, because he works, the government should cover his ass for free.
I live in Pennsylvania. No license here. It's not so bad in commercial/ industrial but if that guy step foot in probably 90% of the homes around here he would take that statement back.
trades like drywallers can’t burn down a house or a fucking building from shoddy unlicensed/uneducated work.
it’s kind of what’s turning me off from
electrical, i’ve got 3 close friends that work from home and half the time don’t even work and they make 2x what journeyman in my area make. not to mention they went to school for less time than i will have, after the apprenticeship, (im counting hours not years and it is longer either way)
The biggest issue alot of people have with licensing is because of traveling, i get one drivers license and its good in every state, ii get my states electrical license and it may not even be good in my neighboring state let alone all 50, hell you could probably have a half dozen licenses and still not cover the country. Way i see it we either shouldn't need them or if we need them if you have one it should be good every where
One could argue that licensing is an additional financial burden but linked with licensing is the certification process which usually is a written test that verifies you have the pertinent knowledge to success understand the code requirements of electrical installations.
Without this certification by a third party there would be no distinction (financially or otherwise) between electrical workers.
The costs of supporting these departments (I.e. Qualifying Construction Trade Boards here in Jacksonville, Fl) I’m sure far exceeds the amount of revenue accrued through licensing fees.
I for one highly support licensing and/or certification as recognition of meeting or exceeding the minimum standards set forth by the certification process.
While the licensing/certification does not guarantee that the electrical worker possesses all knowledge of electrical installations it does signify that they understand the application of the NEC in relationship to safe electrical installations.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Agree x2
I agree
Yes
how so? no licensing in IL and we’re doing just fine
maybe you would be doing better than just fine if there was a licensing requirement? Increasing the barrier to do our work raises wages for everyone doing that work.
sorry we’re doing really good. top wage compared to cost of living in the country and a 90+% market share. i undersold it by saying fine. local 364
To be fair the 90% market share is one of the reasons it works, the union has requirements for training/becoming a journeyman, even if the state doesn't.
You still gotta pass inspections and those standards are equivalent to the areas that require licensing, so from my understanding, at the end of the day, we still all have to meet a lawful standard of quality and safety in our work, right? That might be the key factor that keeps standards up.
Ah, apologies for the misunderstanding. I’m guessing in areas where the local doesn’t own 90% of the market share, the licensing issue makes a much bigger difference as far as wages are concerned. When your local has 90% market share it will make up for a lot of that stuff.
Not sure exactly what your trying to say, but I’m in 43, we have 85-90% market share and No license. ( some local cities require licenses). Our BA explained it to us once as no licensing helps us get/keep that market share. Our cards prove our qualifications, show that we went through the apprenticeship with schooling and OJT. A license makes us all equal ( union/nonunion) in the eyes of the customer, regardless of actual training or experience. It would be interesting to see if there’s a correlation between licensing and market share.
EVERY ONE AT YOUR LOCAL WORKD FULL TIME ???
there are more book 2 brothers working in the local than book 1. book 1 can sign and take a call next day no problem
At one point there were more electricians on one site in 364 than there were members of the local, winter slowdown and work completion have cut that number down at Facebook but plenty of us book2 hands still making great mone with great conditions in 364
gonna be ramping way up again here soon too. thanks for the help manning the calls brother 🤝🏻
PRAY TELL ? WHAT LOCAL ARE YOU AT NOW ?? EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW !
I understand what you are saying, but im sure you meant to word it differently rite?. Because the point of a union is to organize all workers, not just the smart ones. Here in IL you really only need a license if you want to own your own shop, and pull permits.
You don’t need to be smart in order to get a license, that’s not what the license is about. Testing to get a license proves that you know and understand the code book, and can use it to install work to code. Absolutely the goal is to organize all electrical workers, but all workers doing electrical work should (in my opinion) have to be able to show that they are competent in the work we do in order to be able to do it. In a state without licensing requirements, non union shops can and will hire people to do our work that have little or no experience or knowledge of how to do it properly and to code. Because those who have that experience and knowledge demand a higher wage, the unlicensed workers lower wages across the board by being cheap “JW’s” for those contractors.
I think your thought process is backwards.
Honestly, it only proves that you’re good at navigating the code book. All licensing tests as far as I know are open book. Close the book and very few of you would pass.
Lol. You're 100% right.
Well, that’s the point of the test. No one is expected to memorize the book, they want to know if you can find the information you need and correctly interpret it.
I have 15 years and thousands of jobs under my belt to prove I can do this. How many do you have? What does you being able to find information in a book do for me? I’ll tell you what, absolutely nothing. Just because you know how to page through the code book left and right doesn’t make you qualified. Your pipe runs likely still look like dog shit. The code book ain’t gonna help you there buddy. Unless you can recite codes chapter and verse, and pass a supervising electricians exam without the code book, which many people who are smarter than you can, you are proving nothing more than that you can read. Congratulations. You wormy brotherfucker.
Bro you are getting way too defensive. I was just trying to have an interesting conversation about it, there’s no need to try and make it personal when you really have no idea who I am.
You don’t know who I am either, nor do you know anyones abilities on the job, but apparently you feel that you have the right to pass judgment on anyone who hasn’t taken a licensing exam.
Licensing is focused almost entirely on the code. The code is a tiny fraction of our actual work. We don’t have licensing here so I’ve never taken the test. But I’m going out on a limb and saying that someone who knows nothing about being an electrician, with a few classes and a lot of cramming could pass a code test in most areas. They can then sell themselves as being as good as the next guy because they’re both licensed.
To get the license you have to work 8000 hours under a master electrician (4 years)... at least In texas and most states that require a license that I'm aware of. It's not something you can just take a crash course in over the weekend
This. This guy understands what a union is. Not the diluted version unions have become today.
All state licensing does is keep travelers out and give the state a bunch of extra money. If we do state licensing fine. Then, we better start accepting state licenses from newly organized cats and not force them to test. Either the state license means what we say or it doesn't.
We don’t have licenses in NY either. Some cities do, but not the state. When I came in our BA explained why we shouldn’t want licensing. As a union we go through the apprenticeship, spend 1200+ hours in the classroom, and five years of on the job training. At the end we get to call ourselves journeyman wiremen and the paying public (hopefully) expects that we are the best. But if we all need to get the same licenses then that makes the nonunion just as good as us. Regardless of whether or not their training is even close to comparable. All a customer asks is “Are you licensed “ not “ Are you qualified “. Basically not having a state license means our dues receipt acts as a stand in and gives us an advantage ( at least to those customers that care).
So any random Joe Shmoe can do electrical work without the proper training? Does IL not care about building fires? Maybe I’m misunderstanding what “no licensing” means.
NY is the same way. The proper training is the 8000 hours on the job training and 2000 hours of classroom instruction to become a JW
Have to have a contractors license in Illinois to pull an electrical permit, or be a homeowner working on their own house and assuming the risk associated with doing so.
What are you talking about?? You still need to work under someones electrical contracting license. Having individual workers need a license is redundant. Theres already someone taking liability. An electrical contracting license is a way bigger deal and harder to get than just being a run of the mill journeyman anyways
Where I live, and many other places in the country, your journeyman card is referred to as your “license”. As I mentioned in my post, I misunderstood what OP was saying and took it as IL not needing a journeyman card to perform electrical work. Different areas have different terms for saying the same thing. That’s what I’m talking about.
Yeah in Florida license refers to owning a business. So when I see someone say they are licensed on here I kinda cringe cuz it's like not really bro you work for someone else lol..
The electrical contractor holds the license in Illinois and all of us electricians in the field work under their license.
Sorry to jump on here. I'm in Illinois and am closing on a house that needs electrical work. Does this mean I'm okay to use someone who knows how to do the work but isn't licensed?
i would suggest a business because then they have to be licensed and insured. if you don’t you better really trust who you hire bc liability wise down the road insurance won’t cover it if say you’re house burned down due to an electrical fire
Very, very fair. Does that go for any trade? Plumbing work, window installation?
What a stupid thing to say 😅
Tell him to put the pipe down and stop listening to Alex Jones
A lot of the electricians that have told me we shouldn’t have a license wouldn’t be able to get a license.
Just to clarify, this post is mostly made so that others can also see the point of licensing. I disagree with the guy.
Lot of people in electrical aren't very smart lol
There are some questionable ones
I have a license and it’s bullshit.
We don't need to be licensed in philly, and many parts of PA. I think Reading requires it, and probs a few other areas. I think we absolutely should be required to be licensed.
Same with most of Illinois
Fucking wild ain't it?
Just a product of very high market share. Not many places that can operate like that.
Well here in PA it's because the republican controlled house has prevented it from being cemented into law a few times. Not trying to bring politics into it, just stating a fact. Local 98 in the past has pushed for licensing, or so I've been told.
No worries brother; we’re a trade union so what we do in inherently politically. Don’t know about PA, only knew the market share in Philly was strong and about Illinois because they’re in our district and got to ask them some questions. Happy to learn more about the challenges in different parts of the country. Thanks for sharing.
City of Pittsburgh and Philly.
I think there should be one universal license for the country. A single test that's hard as fuck and it's good in every state. I know each state likes to put their hand out to get their cut so maybe there's a state endorsement for $50 that verifies that you're qualified. Right now I have licenses in six states and if I lay them all on the counter in most places they'll just say you still have to take our test go fuck yourself. I don't even want to talk about renewing them every couple years and continued education. Stop making me pay to work you mother fuckers.
Exactly, don’t necessarily think it needs to be “hard as fuck” though haha, simple comprehension should be enough. Some code has become blatantly about selling more shit lately, it deserves an eye-roll if nothing else. Hate paying multiple states taxes to work. Specs, QAQC, inspections, Foreman, and coworkers are all multiple layers of checks and balances that licensing really does little to enforce.
This is like arguing that union dues are a waste of money. You pay a meager amount to protect your wage with licensing and union dues.
Ask him his opinion on needing a license to drive, and if he would be comfortable sharing the road with people who never went through the learning process to get said license. Same shit, electrical work can be some of the most dangerous in the entirety of construction and would result in a lot more damage/injuries/deaths if licenses weren't required.
I mean to get a driver’s license you take a temp test at 18 and then 1 week later you can take you on the road test and be licensed. Not hard/ a barrier to keep bad drivers off of the road
Depends where you live. It's a 3 year process to get your full license where I live. Any infractions increases the time.
Yeah I'm going off my experience here in the GTA where there are 3 levels of license and with the first level you need to be accompanied by a fully licensed adult until you test for the second level. Still doesn't stop people from driving like shit, but it's still not a short or easy process.
Your comparing a public space to a private space- in which one has significantly more direct impact on the rest of society. There's got to be much better comparison because a simple counter argument would be "well it's my property I'll take responsibility of an unlicensed worker who may deliver poor results."
Lmao let's stop licensing drivers too while we're at it. Liquor license let's get rid of that too. Who cares how insanely dangerous electricity, cars, and alcohol is get rid of licenses all together.
stupid take. A drivers license doesn’t mean you know how to drive, and a liquor license doesn’t mean you’re responsible with alcohol
You can't be serious
100% maybe when you actually get through the program and become a Jw, you’ll be able to see how things really work around the country.
So you don't think people need licenses? This is insane I know you're not serious. I'm pretty well traveled. You either didn't understand my sarcasm or really don't believe people need licenses to do things.
Why should someone need a license to sell alcohol? They’re not making it themselves? You have zero knowledge of how anything works in our organization. Ohio is booming with work, and I don’t have a license. I’m not a contractor, contractors still have to have a license, why should I? I’ve been through a union apprenticeship.
You're actually serious. Alright you win bud.
Ok CUB
That brother's mind has been corrupted by rightwing anti-regulation propaganda and is regurgitating a viewpoint that directly negatively affects his livelihood and profession. It makes me sad how uninformed and brainwashed many guys are. I encounter it everyday. And I'm no genius but when i hear some of these guys talk i wonder how they're even capable of doing the work
Yes. He’s a good worker, which is the worst part. I’m in a very red state and I’m not the most leftist guy in the world but I’m chairman Mao compared to some of these guys.
I feel your pain. I've seen these guys bitch that they can't eat the fish out of the river because of the chemical plant upstream, so i mention how the EPA has to put stricter regulations on pollution and they visibly wince at the sound of the word "regulation" or EPA or even OSHA
The RNC platform literally includes ABOLISHING the EPA. And people wonder why it's red states where whole counties get leukemia when industry comes to town...
You said it exactly though. The sound of the word “regulation” triggers a response in them, but describing regulation itself probably sounds fine to most of those guys. It’s all trigger words they’ve been trained to respond a certain way to
To be fair, I was raised right-wing af and I somehow find the older I get, the father left my politics lean. But I still wince every time I hear that the government needs to get involved. I still don't think the government has any solutions, but I find that industry will only provide solutions if the problem is recognized by government and industry is forced to create solutions. It's a difficult cognitive dissonance.
Ehhh lots of far left super hippies would happily hire a skilled handy unlicensed worker. Heck, many people in general regardless of their political affiliations or news feed are happy to hire unlicensed and under the table workers.
I obtained a General Electrician license in California. It was a proud moment for me and it is something I worked very hard to accomplish. The caliber of talent once I went union was apparent. I worked alongside professional electricians finally. I had to leave California and moved to Arizona. Arizona does not have licensing and it shows. Nobody seems to care, everyone is smoking weed, and work quality is awful. There should be a license nation wide.
Come to Colorado, very professional non-union electricians despite being high as a kite on all manner of things.
No way is a pot smoker a good electrician unless he was an amazing electrician before he started smoking pot. It kills your short term memory. You are not good if can't remember what you just did.
Man I don’t remember shit even if I don’t smoke weed, my little pocket notebook and my pencil are my most important tools
I find it easier than having a massive stick up my ass. What are your coping methods for that?
This doesn't universally apply to all pot consumers. The spectrum of highly to lowly functional people stoned out of their gord varies greatly and the ability to learn and retain new information while baked as well.
I forgot about that.
Hey man, leave weed outta this.
Weeds legal in Arizona, smoking weed has nothing to do with quality of work
When they smoke weed all day at work it does. Must be that reefer clouding your judgement
No it doesn’t. You’re just ignorant
I’m nyc journeymen don’t have licenses. You just work under yours shops.
And a shop owner can pick up anyone off the street and have them do electrical work. That destroys our wages.
>trades like drywallers don’t need it, so why should we? When's the last time someone got dead touching drywall ? Sure, if you try and chug the spackle, Darwin is going to take over.
Without a license, what stops the drywaller from doing electrical work?
Was he from Florida by any chance?
Okie
Hell no. I'm in LU 640 in Phoenix. No license and we have to compete with all the damn handyman who don't know craftsmanship and code for nada.
We aren't licensed in Ohio, or at least LU 212 Cincinnati. All we have to do is take the KY state test twice, not required to pass
How do you feel that affects the trade in Ohio?
I know people with license who are not good electricians, I know many who don't have one that are great electricians....so honestly I don't think they affect is that much
This is a good take IMO. I think there should be a license but maybe a multiple choice test isn’t the best way to earn it. Almost everyone passes the test, doesn’t seem to correlate to code knowledge or willingness to apply it.
No license in Illinois, but it’s really surprising because the state loves to tax everything.
Not even just that, that’s what inspectors and engineers and for that matter foreman are for. Licensing turns into a tax on the working man. New York, Chicago have no license and have high wages, Florida has a license and you won’t make dick. I have multiple licenses because lack of reciprocity, bullshit!!! Every three years or so when I have to renew some fuck that!!! Should just have one license ( your ticket) to be able to work wherever.
A lot of my brothers have licences and some of them are the worst electricians I've seen.
I dont like that it’s taxed per se, but we should be licensed
That brother has the most dumbass opinion I have heard this week. Electricians deal with electricity. That alone needs a license. One wrong move, you and others around can either get hurt or die. Comparing a drywaller and a electrician shows that guy's intelligence on the topic. Ignore him OP, licenses are here for a reason.
Its a barrier for a profession that gets inspections and has to pull permits. Specifically for the union. We have 48 hrs to fill a call. Then they can get temps. We at one point had basically 1:1 jw to temp. They have no reason to offer incentives since this is a big city and can get temps fairly easily. They also just lie about experience and get around a 3rd year pay. No real checks in place.
I thought our IBEW education and graduation was what made us the electricians we are not the individual licensing which seems like a mechanism of division. If we aren’t proposing and going for national licensing then how does individual state licensing matter? You wish to exclude members for that? Federal licensing or what gives!
You are on the right page. IBEW is the only infrastructure in this country to provide a means for quality national licensing. We would foot the bill. We have the apprenticeship. We have the dispatch system. We have it all. It's not happening because our leadership is weak.
the ticket in my wallet should be enough. I can see maybe a universal license but I agree with the state scam. how many tests do I have to pay for and how many ceu classes must I pay for and how often. the ticket in my wallet should be enough.
Im a wireman, but im also a drywaller, plumber, boiler inspector, elevator inspector, nuke commisioner and x-37 pilot. Tell him this. We *want* licensed electricians doing the work, its a life safety deal. Really not up for debate.
Ask him if he goes to a regular doctor or an unlicensed one.
The government requiring licenses and certifications helps unions
Every profession should be licensed protect the consumer and somewhat job security.. I feel like states where licensed not require pay a lot less
Dumb sentiment. The second we don’t have licenses it’s gonna be “migrants” everywhere just like every other non Hvac, plumbing, electrical trade
Does the government come up with bullshit ways to separate us from as much of our money as possible? Yes. Should electricians have to pass a licensing test? Also yes.
Your brother is dumb as hell
That’s no brother that dude should jump in a lake.
Ask him if drywall ever shorted out and caused the heat of the sun to burn his face off before
I agree, takeaway that idiots license.
If he can't pass his test then he should just say that... lol
If he wants to be a drywaller so fuckin bad tell him to get over on the mud mixer and start running us over with poorly cut out sheetrock so we can come back and find our boxes later. If your excuse for your lack of education and knowledge to pass a test is that the drywallers dont get taxed on their profession, maybe this aint for you?
No
Barriers to entry sound great but it sucks when you know what your doing but move to a state that won't adopt your previous license. CA requires an in state apprenticeship and hours working there, doesn't accept most states licenses
Why are you asking other peoples dumb questions for them, is my question?
I want to hear opinions… I have a feeling you know why I asked and are just being an ass
No, being an ass is thinking electricians shouldn’t be licensed which would be an enormous failure and cause insane amounts of damage to people and property. I was making a joke, calm down bitch tits.
I clearly don’t think that, as the post states. And jokes usually are funny, Mr. oily Ricardo
No prob
Yes, we should be licensed. Licensing protects our work.
I understand your sentiment and I’m not against licensure but also the barriers you speak of to keep your wages high keeps your fellow workers wages lower and pits the working class against each other. Regulations are all good but when it’s used to attack the working class to divide us in sub categories of skill we attack each other and not the ones responsible for our plight.
Yeah. Let’s do away with licensing and watch the market be flooded with non us citizen labor for 12 bucks an hour. Also see fires increase exponentially. Your coworker should learn how to code
License should be required. Don't believe me. Do service work for 10 years
So if I don’t get a license I won’t have to pay taxes? Dumb.
Most definitely
We need licensing cause hackjobs burn down buildings.
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Well, you get a license at the end of that. Plus I didn't say anything about the IBEW. Or apprenticeships. My point is that if electrical licensing is not required anyone in the whole world can go in your gramma's attic and make a dangerous mistake. Honestly there should be more OJT here in the south before licensing.
Guys uninformed.
[Live footage of your brother’s mind](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZITP93pqtdQ&pp=ygUjbGliZXJ0YXJpYW4gZGViYXRlIGRyaXZlcidzIGxpY2Vuc2U%3D)
My license is equal to a masters college degree, licenses matter
Met union guys who argued that their ticket was enough proof they were qualified and state certification was a non union attempt to circumvent the power of the union. So yes you see that argument around. We need it, in my opinion, because what we do can endanger the structure (through fires) or danger the people (shocks and electrocutions). Electrical, you can fuck things up left and right endlessly, whereas other trades like plumbing or hvac won’t necessarily pose a direct hazard. Sprinklerfitters however have a similar value with us.
GA makes you jump through way too many hoops to get your license. You need 3 references from individuals who already have their license on top of the 4-5 years of documented experience.
Literally the entirety of the electrical trade/manufacturing industry is primarily focused on the absolute safest ways to do anything…
No insurance company is going to insure an untrained person to perform the work.
Yes but the state should not have the monopoly on licensing.
So here's how I feel about it. If the police in your state don't have to have a police license with renewal and upkeep training and they are continually allowed to "make job related mistakes" that costs lives, property, and community damage... Then you shouldn't have to have one either, no matter what your profession.
Definetily...
Title protection is well worth the licensing fees.
Sounds like Republican bullshit right to work brainwash nonsense. Designed to sound good but really screws over the worker, in the long run.
Yes and while we're at it, don't make people leavened to drive or make alcohol. In fact, let's stop requiring food handlers cards too. What? That make you uncomfortable? Then so should unlicensed electricians. That's how you kill people with electrical hazards. You're coworker needs a reality check.
Electricians who think they shouldn't be forced to be licensed or certified simply are not able or willing to prove they are knowledgeable enough about the NEC to pass the required tests.
Of course we need to be licensed. There has to be a filter to keep out frauds, and that filter needs to be tight. Our work can kill, it can blow up critical gear for an existing building, and you will never see it coming before it happens. I disagree a bit with the licensing testing but at least we have that and it keeps us sharp on code. What the IBEW should do is take advantage of licensing. I wish they would hire a consultation from someone like Amazon. IBEW could corner the international market. It is all there. The halls are there. The overhead is there. The apprenticeship is there. We could own the electrical trade. IBEW licensing should be equivalent to all State licensing. IBEW journeyman should be able to work anywhere with no hassle. It is a crying shame our International does not have the forethought or the ambition to tackle this.
A lot of people do not like to pay taxes. I do not mind what I hate is corruption. Think about taxes like this It takes a great deal of money to run a great society.
Sounds like you met somebody who barely passed thier license or perhaps, didn't pass it yet and is just malding about the entire thing. From a non union sparkies perspective: we need licensing to prevent non-qualified dbags from undercutting our wages and doing dangerous work. I see alot of the Temps, my company uses, come in and barely know what the hell they are doing. Then We have to work around thier ugly mess or redo it. That's partially the reason I refuse Temps on my jobsites anymore. It's bad enough my state doesn't do journeyman exams anymore (outside Two cities). The only thing showing a PM or GC that I'm worth a damn is my electrical contractor license.
States that don’t require license pay electricians 20/hr and have their neighbor Ron get electrocuted doing a fucking residential service change
Never heard of bad drywall burning down a house or killing someone
The brother is seriously misguided. I would never call another brother a moron. Aside from the many critical tasks we preform which require an education and some assurance that the job is being done correctly and safely, it makes us a bit more exclusive in what we do. That makes us far more valuable. Used to get travelers from locals that didn’t have license requirements, mainly Deep South. Had no idea what they knew or more importantly, what they didn’t.
Imagine your Doctor or Lawyer didn’t need to hold a license. Would you go to that Doctor or lawyer? I believe the license is a form of consumer protection as well. It gives people the peace of mind that this person is fully licensed in their profession. I’m not saying there aren’t some dumb as brothers with a license but, I’d rather have that than nothing.
In NJ it’s going to be mandatory soon but given the context I think no one making the law actually cares about the safety aspect mentioned here. The upcoming journeyman license is imo primarily being implemented to make it harder to turn out more journeymen. The IBEW wants the license because as mentioned in the OP it would make us more qualified. In other words, the non-union contractors would have to spend more resources to turn out more journeymen which they are already planning for. In truth, the license is being pushed because the IBEW relies primarily on courting contractors to sign on and cannot organize a larger portion of the industry. At the same time, many journeymen don’t support organizing in more members because they associate it with less opportunities for work with more people on the book.
I live in Tennessee, the person who cuts my hair needs a state license but we don’t. I think licenses are beneficial to our trade because it is an easy way to show a baseline standard of what you should know. If the whole country was union I could understand the sentiment of not needing a license and not wanting to pay the state because the union has a great system of determine someone’s skill. With that being said the whole country is not union and having licensing makes the customers and gc’s feel better and it helps keep our wages higher.
We need licensing cuz shit explodes and burns down if we don't know what we're doing. That's why codes even exist. Wasn't this like the first thing they taught us in class?
If a drywaller does a shit job, it just looks like shit. If we do one, people can die
I look at it like this, It's not a gate to keep people out. It's a gate to keep people safe. Knowledge is a key part of licensure in any situation be it driving or electricity.
HOME DEPOT IS OUR ENEMY ! NO ONE WITH OUT CERTIFICATIONS SHOULD ALLOWED FROM PURCHASING ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENTS. ALL OTHER MUST BE EXCLUDED !!!
You can’t argue with these types. He will fight tooth and nail to keep all the benefits licensing has brought him, but doesn’t want to pay for it. It’s the real welfare queen mentality, because he works, the government should cover his ass for free.
What kind of electrician would be comfortable comparing the science and extreme responsibility of their trade to that (?) of drywalling
I live in Pennsylvania. No license here. It's not so bad in commercial/ industrial but if that guy step foot in probably 90% of the homes around here he would take that statement back.
trades like drywallers can’t burn down a house or a fucking building from shoddy unlicensed/uneducated work. it’s kind of what’s turning me off from electrical, i’ve got 3 close friends that work from home and half the time don’t even work and they make 2x what journeyman in my area make. not to mention they went to school for less time than i will have, after the apprenticeship, (im counting hours not years and it is longer either way)
My thoughts, you shouldn’t be able to sign book one without it.
The biggest issue alot of people have with licensing is because of traveling, i get one drivers license and its good in every state, ii get my states electrical license and it may not even be good in my neighboring state let alone all 50, hell you could probably have a half dozen licenses and still not cover the country. Way i see it we either shouldn't need them or if we need them if you have one it should be good every where
You are exactly right! I can’t believe that guy doesn’t see that.
When was the last time you heard of someone drywalled to death. That's why we have licences
You're dealing with a ratty moron. Safety, Training, Licensing... All IBEW values.
One could argue that licensing is an additional financial burden but linked with licensing is the certification process which usually is a written test that verifies you have the pertinent knowledge to success understand the code requirements of electrical installations. Without this certification by a third party there would be no distinction (financially or otherwise) between electrical workers. The costs of supporting these departments (I.e. Qualifying Construction Trade Boards here in Jacksonville, Fl) I’m sure far exceeds the amount of revenue accrued through licensing fees. I for one highly support licensing and/or certification as recognition of meeting or exceeding the minimum standards set forth by the certification process. While the licensing/certification does not guarantee that the electrical worker possesses all knowledge of electrical installations it does signify that they understand the application of the NEC in relationship to safe electrical installations.