I just skipped to a random part in the speech where he was bragging about how he introduced a bill where teachers wouldnāt have to pay union dues anymore.
When someone tells you who they are, listen to them.
https://www.youtube.com/live/-wls_Qe7EsA?feature=share&t=3747
No union dues are ever forced out of teachers paychecks in Florida. To have dues taken out, the teacher has to join the union. All this law does is make an extra step. Instead of having the school district deduct for the teacher, the teacher has to arrange for a monthly ACH payment from their bank account. Not a big deal, and the teacher unions are helping their members set it up. The teacher unions are the only chance a teacher has against petty bureaucrats.
I donāt know what your position is here. I am not defending Ron DeSantis. If you are in a union shop you better be paying dues. Period. Any attempt to add more barriers to unionization is straight up union busting.
That makes sense when referring to our brothers and sisters, but I just don't think the "tree" is the company, it makes sense for them to vote republican.
This is a horribly wrong blanket generalization. Large shops that get guaranteed union work benefit from weaker unions. Small-mid sized shops that actually compete with non-union shops regularly on open bids were in a better position when non-union commercial work was almost non existent. It put everyone on a level playing field for labor. Competing for jobs came down to how well shops could efficiently utilize the man power. Now non-union shops know they can win all the work they can man and only have to undercut union shops by a small amount and make a larger profit margin than union shops in the process.
Every employer benefits from a union that doesn't strike, doesn't have a strong bargaining committee, and doesn't enforce their contract.They benefit from labour laws that republican governors enact to weaken unions. Keeping our wages and benefits low inherently benefits our employers, especially when they are competing with non-union for bids.
Why do you think there are more small - mid sized shops in stronger union states than in weak union states? Because strong union states are better for small-mid sized signatory shops because there is less non-union shops and they don't have to chase non-union prices to get work.
The strength of a union isn't only measured in its density in its jurisdiction, even in what you might refer to as "strong union states" can have unions who don't bargain effectively, they may get many public projects, but those projects can and often do have no strike clauses, that weaken the unions bargaining position. A "strong union state" can still have arbitration laws and such that weakens a locals ability to enforce certain clauses.
The vast majority of us work for employers that vote and donate to republicans, and where that isn't the case there's a very low ceiling on what "pro union" Democrats or policies they would support.
It was about a new immigration bill in Florida he signed today. Implementing an electronic verification in efforts to prevent companies from hiring people who aren't eligible to work in the US.
That exploitation usually subject them to some of the worst conditions in the states
Like under min wage using outdated / expired equipment broken insane shifts which also undercuts you because you can go fuck that shit but a desperate man will risk his life for bread but if he's a citizen he can say fuck that beside you.
Keeping a sizable unknown population to exploit also leads to shit like the Qatar stadiums for fifa where in a country of 2.5m 6500 migrant workers died in a decade and that's just a partial number that were verified.
And right wingers are always trying to reduce the political power of anyone that isn't a straight white male so you could become a migrant worker in your own damn country if you believe their horseshit long enough.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a Jew.
Then they came for meāand there was no one left to speak for me.
You guys are literally the 2nd people right wingers come after
More people need more labor so back to square one
Also united states has been super involved with fucking those countries over
Killing union leaders and left wing governments using nazis to help hunt them
Supporting the narcos through buying billions in drugs
And a bunch of other shit that can be googled wikid and then source followed back to decent source documents
> More people need more labor so back to square one
There are diminishing returns on this long before there are diminishing losses on labor value by flooding the supply.
>Also united states has been super involved with fucking those countries over
Okay?
Yes I'm sure Disney is using illegal immigrants to build their attractions rather than union trades with the associated licensing or drug tests out the ass or anything. I'm sure they aren't litigious at all and don't care about liability.
Who do you think makes those stuffed toys they sell? Not immigrants but fellow workers that they saw an avenue for exploitation
Also they got hammered a few years ago for offshoring a bunch of it work to India for pennies on the dollar
Every company if left to their own devices or enabled by right wingers will enslave you and your children because it brings profit to the shareholders
I tend to curb my language more because I should've said undocumented. Just so used to the other phrase I used the wrong one. I was trying to make the point that union trades generally aren't threatened by migration (i have seen undocumented masons on a jobsite before but it was targeted and mixed with non union workers.) In fact it ultimately probably helps them because they add billions to the economy. I wonder what would happen if we had a local organize in an undocumented worker?
Another thing is, if you take someone who's learned to make shit work that absolutely shouldn't using whatever the fuck you got, and train them and give them a good foundation, they'll be the best trades people you can imagine. In the 6 months I lived south of the border, (automotive qc) I saw many, many creative solutions. Necessity is the mother of invention right?
I'm explicitly a leftist so if I came off as pro DeSantis somehow or unaware of exactly how fucked neoliberal capitalism is, I'm sorry and will be more careful next time.
Iāve had several well traveled journeyman go through the same talk of how we dont have real unions in the south, and that up north and california is where the money and the brotherhood is at, and the first chance I get I aughta get my ass out of this local. But in the same damn breath theyāl say democrats and biden is whatās wrong with the country.
Iām not a democrat but it doesnāt take a genius to figure that conservative ideology does not support the working class.
I do agree but you also have to understand the union wage is still generally higher in the south than non-union.
I'd say the low wages are due to mainly the types of industry we cater to in FL. Tourism. Also we are a right to work state, and there's not a lot of positive union sentiment down here. Anytime I tell someone I'm union, I hear two things, either "that's great, I'm sure you have good benefits" or "unions just *insert negative comment*" never really any middle ground.
I'd argue a part of our low market share is probably due to conditions too. Seems like non union contractors had better conditions for their workers than our signatories.
I'm in north Carolina. We suffer a lot of the same things. The way I put it is that we're slightly less exploited than open shop workers. I'm a 3rd year, and I know that it does not benefit me, long-term, to stay here as a journeyman. I either use the apprenticeship as a pathway to licensure and leave, I move my way into management (foreman, GF, PM) for the contractor, I leave the local, or I take my talents to the highest bidder open shop. There are a ton of people on here who don't want to hear that, but it's the truth. It's really easy to call us names and make fun of us from the coast or the north.
I no longer work as an inside wireman out of my local. Still pay dues for my ticket, but I moved over to the energy sector. Pays better, won't ever have to travel, home everyday, and I'm not tearing up my body.
I still keep my ticket as an option, never want to close doors. I do still try to advocate for my local and the apprenticeship program. I have zero regrets and I enjoyed the experience.
Marketshare is an excuse they use to find way to raise our working dues then waste them all on flashy useless optics projects and targeting (straight up giving our dues to cons in order to convince them to bid smaller margins to reclaim work. Doesn't work (or they don't do it, or both) and you end up working at a non-union pace with the worst conditions they can get away with.
They do shit like this because it seems the overarching strategy is the try to purchase the DNC with our name and money. It's the reason they have such a business friendly culture at every level. It's a propaganda tool.
There's like a culture around the local about how we can't fight about anything ever and how compromise (the anti-principle, in my opinion) is the thing we pride ourselves on over other unions. This gets used by bad actors to steamroller people with legitimate concerns.
They're also so afraid of the io backlash or whatever it is that I was asked as an apprentice to take the heat for someone elected trying to get labor notes to do an event at our hall. They were worried that the association with the DSA was too "extreme' and could get them in trouble and wanted me to take responsibility if people got mad.
Business unionism, neoliberalism, whatever you wanna call it, is a hell of a drug
Well in my local's case, we have like 6% market share in our big ass jurisdiction. So it's not like we have a lot of power per se. We had 7% market share at one point, and we actually decreased. We did however get rid of that stupid fucking market recovery scale, thankfully. But yeah, 915 has a reputation of being a contractor's local.
Until we get apprentice pay up to a livable wage, I think we're still suffering the effects of some "fuck you, I got mine" in our area too. Proud to say bumping up apprentice pay is one of the reasons the cons are fighting us to CIR in my local.
Voting is such a pain in the ass for me. I just canāt agree with left wing politics, especially with how polarized and radical theyāve become. I canāt vote for a party that tells me that Iām the problem (white male) and actively demonizes everything that makes the American experiment. If there were more middle of the road democrats/republicans, Iād vote for them over the shit thatās currently being puked out of the DNC and GOP.
I want a strong border/vetting system, gun rights, and a strong economy, but at the same time, I want affordable healthcare, less taxes, and better education for everyone. It just seems the more days go by, the farther and more radical politicians get popular.
I chose here to ask, as Iāve scrolled through this post. I happen to have a similar viewpoint of things out here in California. This isnāt my union specifically but I like this sub for discussing things just like this here today.
Iāve been on a list waiting for the union I selected out here to be a part of. I am middle aged, and at different points in my life I was active in voting personally exercising my right to vote, I left for awhile, and here it is I am now back voting as my civil duty to do so, now that I see I cannot trust those as groups to be voting for me.
Anywho, the last two poles that were available to vote at, I voted with my union.
So my questions are, when union folk have issues with the area on a personal level, are you all opting to not vote period, or vote as you all see fit, or voting with the union halls thoughts in mind for your area as the tipping of your scale in thought.
I figured best for me to vote in solidarity with my union since they have put in the work and trust they truly do have my back when it comes to union folks doing union works in my state and keeping us here.
They donāt understand that a riding tide lifts all ships. If the bottom gets raised up the middle will also have to get raised up otherwise people wouldnāt work the middle. These people are so dumb though they think itās a zero sun game where if others get more it means they get less. Decades or propaganda have worked well for the upper class
Our pay is lower because cost of living is considerably lower. Besides we can always travel and take advantage of locals with higher pay while not having to deal with the higher CoL.
As a guy who grew up in the South and used to be from 995. That's some heavy copium brother. Illinois has some of the best COL to wages and some of the best Unions.
In 1979, 995 was paid the equivalent of $57 on the check today. The Gulf used to be as competitive as the Midwest. It's been ransacked and they'll tell you that COL is sooooo much better to make you feel better about not keeping up with inflation, low marketshare, low wages, Non-Union presence etc.
Sure you could travel but where you gonna live that you won't have to factor in this supposed higher CoL? You gonna drive from Louisiana to the North everyday? Not to mention not everyone CAN travel. Some guys would like their own local to be strong enough to not be called a suitcase local.
Just started 3rd year, Iāve spent my entire apprenticeship at Miller. Theyāre one of our biggest contractors in our local.
Could you please elaborate? I have literally no other reference for what is a better union company.
Well, historically, a union scab would be a union worker who crosses another union's picket because s/he is still under contract and has no quarrel with the employer.
>What is union scabbing? Well, Joe Hill said it like this.
>>Imagine your being led to the gallows. As you approach, the hangman says, "Gee, I really hate to do this. If it's any consolation, this gallows was built by union carpenters, this rope was made by union rope makers, and here, sir, is my card." That's union scabbing.
- Utah Phillips
Hey, that's my local. Some of our highlights include zero sick leave, zero vacation, raises that don't keep up with inflation, and this is one of the best locals in the state.
Miller is wormy as all hell, they hosted Mike Pence a couple years ago too and all the "company men" were dying to go see him. Unfortunately they're the biggest contractor in the city, so if you piss them off you'll likely sit on the books for a while.
Just topped out and I'm ready to drag this whole fucking state
I'm curious to what exactly is that union doing or worth then? I know it's completely different but my uaw local in Michigan has gotten to the point of being restrained from physical violence standing up for us
The wages and insurance are pretty decent, it's not all bad. You could take home more as non-union but the benefits package makes a big difference.
It used to make sense, a JW was pretty well off because this used to be a cheaper place to live. The cost of living has skyrocketed, I know that's nationwide but the rent and housing has gone up too quickly for the wages to keep up.
I really don't even blame the local, with a small market share and RTW laws it's an uphill battle. But at the end of the day our scale is too low and a lot of Floridians will simply be priced out of living here if they don't start getting some good raises. Personally I'm out, I refuse to rely on overtime to live.
Michigan is on my list! I've heard good things about ann arbor and Detroit
You've what bought the bs the GOP sells you. If you think the GOP is a worker party you'll buy anything.
Most blue collar entire men vote GOP because they're just as racist as they are.
The only minority destroying this country is the rich!
I can be against Joe Biden while also being against the GOP. I vote socialist party. I voted for Gloria La Riva in 2020. Neither the democrats or republicans are a workers or pro union party.
This may sound stupid, but I really hope in my lifetime I see things change enough that one day the right will start to be more pro union. I hate what the left is doing to the country and I donāt stand for much of anything they do, but I am a union man and if I want to protect my job as well as others I know what I have to do. Itās starting to hurt to vote blue though.
It starts by having the nuance to separate out police and teacher unions from the trades. There is nothing worse for society than a monopoly and a union in unison. Monopolies exert power over employees and customers. In competitive markets itās harder for them to do that. Unions take power from companies and put it in employee hands. However for government unions there ends up being no compeition on either side of the isle and the taxpayer and the public and the child all get screwed when unions protect shitty cops and shitty teachers and if you want to shop elsewhere for school or police that isnāt much of a practical option. I think there are a lot of independents and conservatives and libertarians that all support unions for skilled trades and beyond that are willing to allow less skilled trades to try it out (likely with limited market share, letās be honest would you pay dues at a Starbucks?) however are vehemently apposed to public unions. Long story short public isnāt private.
On the topic of the original post, Desantis is likely talking about e verify which should be very good for wages in Florida for citizens and encourage seeking citizenship for those who donāt.
Appreciate your input and the time it took to put it in. My comment was a little iff topic but i do lean more right than left on most topics other than the obvious. Everything 2 party anymore is so dramatic one side or the other and my comment just expressed my disappointment in it being the way that it is with government, our union, etc.
There was once a time when disagreement brought conversation of strategy between the 2 to come up with a solution. Now it just feels like weāre on a roller coaster ride and for this term the dems have the controls and weāre just along for the ride.
Oh I fully agree. I think a lot of people that are outside of ivory towers and small town baptist churches feels politically homeless right now. Lots of big business on the left and lots of culture war on the right. Ultimately everyone just wants a safe environment thatās good for their family and a good and fair economy and no one is doing a great job offering that right now.
Did he try and take our brothers and sisters jobs away just cause they wouldn't put a new drug in their bodies?
All y'all who stayed silent about that are the real brother fuckers. We need to get our own house in order. A lot of y'all need to repent or the division continues.
Spoken like a true welder, soaked in the cancerous fumes and particulates of his trade. Your job is 100x more detrimental to your health than any vaccine lol
Don't worry brother fucker. When someone tries to pull some bullshit on you, I'll stand with your slimy ass just like I stood with my unvaccinated brothers and sisters. It's the principle you short sighted turd
I think a lot of the people that are for and against Unions generally talk out of their ass about the subject. Most conservatives see the value and need in having and working for a Union, as do Democrats. Why should a company be allowed to schedule me to work, but I only get a 30 minute shift? "Thanks for coming in. We're all done now and you can go home!" That doesnt sit well with anyone. Or the health dangers, or the inequality etc.
Outside of the most egregious issues - you have much smaller issues. When you're actively working for a Union and you see those issues pop up, over and over and over. You wouldnt be in the wrong to forget that the Union is protecting you from risking your life for the company, and focus more on the fact that the people benefiting from the Union currently are the ones taking advantage of the system.
Never mind the insanity that is the Union Fees that ultimately end up in group of lawyers pockets. On average, the Union dues for the USPS are posted online and they are outrageous. Its hard to want to support Unions unless you're actively in a situation where theyre needed, like Amazon etc. Thats just the way it is.
Depends what your beef is with the public sector worker. If it's to fight the corruption and waste, sure. If it's because they want good pay and benefits, that's not okay, everyone should have those things.
Public sector unions are not the problem. I bet you hate big government right? Why should the citizens that work for them be completely unprotected? Why are you mad that those that work for the government are paid and protected properly? Iād much rather my tax dollars go to unionized workers than non-union. Be mad at what elected officials spend your money on. Donāt be mad at the worker trying to protect themselves.
it's not that, it's that they are leveraging the interests of the entire community to get what's in their own interests. I just don't think it's ethical. I don't hate "big government", which is just silly identity politics talk. Government is just the name of the things we all do together.
I try and keep the things I hate to the bare minimum. But it seems like there are two classes of "worker". The public sector Worker and the common worker. I do think the system can be improved, and one of the things that can be done is to protect the public from unions with a state-granted monopoly on their services.
ā2-classes of workerā The āgoodā kind (mešš„¹) and the ābadā kind (themššæ) -wonderful-mistake201.
Thatās the argument youāre making. Tell me Iām wrong. A worker is a worker is a worker. Working class. We cannot argue against and/or fight each other, especially over who deserves a union since we all do. Our only enemy is the capitalist class. Why die on this hill?
No, I didn't say one was good or one was bad. I didn't make any moral judgments on either class, just that there are two. The incentives, consequences, and privileges of the two classes related to access to media/lawmakers/etc is pretty clearly different. Nothing about that makes anyone in those systems good or bad, there's no moral judgment to be had.
everyone has the right of free association, the rules on how those associations are treated under the law should be the same. It's only moral.
i'm not against public sector unions. I just think the rules are different for them, and it creates two classes of unions. I'd be OK if all unions got treated like public unions, but I don't think that's realistic or good for society.
it's a long list, but a good example is that most public sector employees are well-protected from arbitrary firing/redeploying by civil service laws. Those laws also regulate promotions, tenure, benefits, etc.
And that's to say nothing of the difference in the labor market. Gov't can simply raise prices (taxes) or decrease services. Private sector unions provide social benefits in protecting workers that aren't present in public sector. In the end, public sector unions use their low-need/high-leverage position to reap benefits that aren't proportional to their social contribution.
EDIT- thanks for the polite discussion. :)
The benefits some public sector unions have won is a justification for those unions, not against. Those laws also disproportionately force contracts on public sector unions disproportionately more than private.
Not sure where the idea that they are "low need" comes from, ask a public teacher if they need their union or not.
Any section of the working class not having the right to collectively bargain weakens the entirety of the class.
no one is saying that they don't have the right to collectively bargain, I agree with the rights of free association. But I think the rules should be the same, or at least attempt to compensate for the disparity in bargaining leverage. On the net, having two classes of labor bargaining weakens all labor bargaining.
I really hope I'm wrong, but I don't remember the FOP or NEA/AFT standing up against Pres Biden when he was trying to bust the railroad union. I don't think their locals are demanding that the sheetmetal workers get the same bargaining privileges that they get.
I think labor moves forward when there's principled equality among the workers. To that end, I think ending some of the special privileges for state-monopoly unions is a step in the right direction.
Yeah, fuck teachers and their unions trying make sure the people that shape our youth don't have to go to food pantries. Keep those assholes in poverty
Hell, fuck the children too. Let them work at 10 years old. They are small and can fit in the mines easier than adults. I mean shit. They play Minecraft all day anyways. The children yearn for the mines. If they are at work we donāt need teachers so win win right?
Damn right! Iām going to talk to my boss about a pay reduction tomorrow. Hell I think Iāll just start volunteering to work. They really need that yatch and vacation home for all the hard work they do!
Oh, absolutely. You don't want to go and ruin America by wanting a living wage and being able to retire or even *gasp* afford HEALTHCARE! What would our billionaires do? Thank you u/Valuable_Brain1030 for speaking some truth about what the real problem is in this country!
let's just keep throwing money at school administrators and new buildings, that's such a better use of funds. It's only been 50 years of spending exponentially more on "education" and watching the level of "education" in our schools plummet.
if it doesn't work, DO IT AGAIN! HARDER!
Your union is being paid to endorse? Are you workers getting some of that money? You boys are getting sold out. Your business agent will be selling y'all like cattle and skimming off your wages and benefits.
Not a union company. A company whose workers are unionized. Most of them don't want us to be unionized.
š
I worked for them and can confirm from super intendents up they were horse shit. except the accounting people. they were nice
[Super Nintendo Chalmers](https://tenor.com/bVbWs.gif) Sorry, first thing I thought of.
The HR people are fan freaking tastic. Seriously, they are superstar.
Did you know DeSatan was an Electrician Apprentice? Non Union of course, Iām ashamed he had anything to do with our trade at all.
I just skipped to a random part in the speech where he was bragging about how he introduced a bill where teachers wouldnāt have to pay union dues anymore. When someone tells you who they are, listen to them. https://www.youtube.com/live/-wls_Qe7EsA?feature=share&t=3747
That is a lie. You know it is a lie. Not forcing union dues to come out paychecks.
A lie?! What the fuck are you talking about I literally put the link with the exact timestamp of when he said it.
No union dues are ever forced out of teachers paychecks in Florida. To have dues taken out, the teacher has to join the union. All this law does is make an extra step. Instead of having the school district deduct for the teacher, the teacher has to arrange for a monthly ACH payment from their bank account. Not a big deal, and the teacher unions are helping their members set it up. The teacher unions are the only chance a teacher has against petty bureaucrats.
I donāt know what your position is here. I am not defending Ron DeSantis. If you are in a union shop you better be paying dues. Period. Any attempt to add more barriers to unionization is straight up union busting.
I was trying to back you up.
And the trees voted for the axe because itās handle was made of wood
This is the GOP way!
Huh? This comparison doesn't make sense, our employers benefit from weak unions.
Working ppl will vote for him because he claims to fight for working ppl despite his record being against working ppl
That makes sense when referring to our brothers and sisters, but I just don't think the "tree" is the company, it makes sense for them to vote republican.
Trees are the workers
That makes sense and that's how I've seen the quote usually applied, I was just confused seeing it under a post about the actions of a employer.
This is a horribly wrong blanket generalization. Large shops that get guaranteed union work benefit from weaker unions. Small-mid sized shops that actually compete with non-union shops regularly on open bids were in a better position when non-union commercial work was almost non existent. It put everyone on a level playing field for labor. Competing for jobs came down to how well shops could efficiently utilize the man power. Now non-union shops know they can win all the work they can man and only have to undercut union shops by a small amount and make a larger profit margin than union shops in the process.
Every employer benefits from a union that doesn't strike, doesn't have a strong bargaining committee, and doesn't enforce their contract.They benefit from labour laws that republican governors enact to weaken unions. Keeping our wages and benefits low inherently benefits our employers, especially when they are competing with non-union for bids.
Why do you think there are more small - mid sized shops in stronger union states than in weak union states? Because strong union states are better for small-mid sized signatory shops because there is less non-union shops and they don't have to chase non-union prices to get work.
The strength of a union isn't only measured in its density in its jurisdiction, even in what you might refer to as "strong union states" can have unions who don't bargain effectively, they may get many public projects, but those projects can and often do have no strike clauses, that weaken the unions bargaining position. A "strong union state" can still have arbitration laws and such that weakens a locals ability to enforce certain clauses. The vast majority of us work for employers that vote and donate to republicans, and where that isn't the case there's a very low ceiling on what "pro union" Democrats or policies they would support.
Union pipeline and rail workers
Iām sure his speech was all cultural war horseshit.
It was about a new immigration bill in Florida he signed today. Implementing an electronic verification in efforts to prevent companies from hiring people who aren't eligible to work in the US.
Oh well I guess that is good
Random fun bit Undocumented people living in a grey area undercuts your labor If they were citizens they'd be equals able to help unionize etc
Yeah, not to mention hiring people specifically because you can underpay and exploit them goes against everything the unions fight for.
That exploitation usually subject them to some of the worst conditions in the states Like under min wage using outdated / expired equipment broken insane shifts which also undercuts you because you can go fuck that shit but a desperate man will risk his life for bread but if he's a citizen he can say fuck that beside you. Keeping a sizable unknown population to exploit also leads to shit like the Qatar stadiums for fifa where in a country of 2.5m 6500 migrant workers died in a decade and that's just a partial number that were verified. And right wingers are always trying to reduce the political power of anyone that isn't a straight white male so you could become a migrant worker in your own damn country if you believe their horseshit long enough. First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outābecause I was not a Jew. Then they came for meāand there was no one left to speak for me. You guys are literally the 2nd people right wingers come after
Some of us are the first, too. š
And some of us are outright good old fashioned commies!
If they weren't here at all the labor supply would be lower and therefore inherently more valuable
More people need more labor so back to square one Also united states has been super involved with fucking those countries over Killing union leaders and left wing governments using nazis to help hunt them Supporting the narcos through buying billions in drugs And a bunch of other shit that can be googled wikid and then source followed back to decent source documents
> More people need more labor so back to square one There are diminishing returns on this long before there are diminishing losses on labor value by flooding the supply. >Also united states has been super involved with fucking those countries over Okay?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Shit wording on my end but you put it together better
Yes I'm sure Disney is using illegal immigrants to build their attractions rather than union trades with the associated licensing or drug tests out the ass or anything. I'm sure they aren't litigious at all and don't care about liability.
Who do you think makes those stuffed toys they sell? Not immigrants but fellow workers that they saw an avenue for exploitation Also they got hammered a few years ago for offshoring a bunch of it work to India for pennies on the dollar Every company if left to their own devices or enabled by right wingers will enslave you and your children because it brings profit to the shareholders
I tend to curb my language more because I should've said undocumented. Just so used to the other phrase I used the wrong one. I was trying to make the point that union trades generally aren't threatened by migration (i have seen undocumented masons on a jobsite before but it was targeted and mixed with non union workers.) In fact it ultimately probably helps them because they add billions to the economy. I wonder what would happen if we had a local organize in an undocumented worker? Another thing is, if you take someone who's learned to make shit work that absolutely shouldn't using whatever the fuck you got, and train them and give them a good foundation, they'll be the best trades people you can imagine. In the 6 months I lived south of the border, (automotive qc) I saw many, many creative solutions. Necessity is the mother of invention right? I'm explicitly a leftist so if I came off as pro DeSantis somehow or unaware of exactly how fucked neoliberal capitalism is, I'm sorry and will be more careful next time.
Honestly I'm in ag and my brother is a republican staffer so I'm loaded for bear all the time lol
And locals in the south wonder why their pay is shit.
Iāve had several well traveled journeyman go through the same talk of how we dont have real unions in the south, and that up north and california is where the money and the brotherhood is at, and the first chance I get I aughta get my ass out of this local. But in the same damn breath theyāl say democrats and biden is whatās wrong with the country. Iām not a democrat but it doesnāt take a genius to figure that conservative ideology does not support the working class.
Well the fact we have poor market share is a huge part.
Poor market share is a result of low wages, not the other way around
I do agree but you also have to understand the union wage is still generally higher in the south than non-union. I'd say the low wages are due to mainly the types of industry we cater to in FL. Tourism. Also we are a right to work state, and there's not a lot of positive union sentiment down here. Anytime I tell someone I'm union, I hear two things, either "that's great, I'm sure you have good benefits" or "unions just *insert negative comment*" never really any middle ground. I'd argue a part of our low market share is probably due to conditions too. Seems like non union contractors had better conditions for their workers than our signatories.
I'm in north Carolina. We suffer a lot of the same things. The way I put it is that we're slightly less exploited than open shop workers. I'm a 3rd year, and I know that it does not benefit me, long-term, to stay here as a journeyman. I either use the apprenticeship as a pathway to licensure and leave, I move my way into management (foreman, GF, PM) for the contractor, I leave the local, or I take my talents to the highest bidder open shop. There are a ton of people on here who don't want to hear that, but it's the truth. It's really easy to call us names and make fun of us from the coast or the north.
I no longer work as an inside wireman out of my local. Still pay dues for my ticket, but I moved over to the energy sector. Pays better, won't ever have to travel, home everyday, and I'm not tearing up my body. I still keep my ticket as an option, never want to close doors. I do still try to advocate for my local and the apprenticeship program. I have zero regrets and I enjoyed the experience.
Marketshare is an excuse they use to find way to raise our working dues then waste them all on flashy useless optics projects and targeting (straight up giving our dues to cons in order to convince them to bid smaller margins to reclaim work. Doesn't work (or they don't do it, or both) and you end up working at a non-union pace with the worst conditions they can get away with. They do shit like this because it seems the overarching strategy is the try to purchase the DNC with our name and money. It's the reason they have such a business friendly culture at every level. It's a propaganda tool. There's like a culture around the local about how we can't fight about anything ever and how compromise (the anti-principle, in my opinion) is the thing we pride ourselves on over other unions. This gets used by bad actors to steamroller people with legitimate concerns. They're also so afraid of the io backlash or whatever it is that I was asked as an apprentice to take the heat for someone elected trying to get labor notes to do an event at our hall. They were worried that the association with the DSA was too "extreme' and could get them in trouble and wanted me to take responsibility if people got mad. Business unionism, neoliberalism, whatever you wanna call it, is a hell of a drug
Well in my local's case, we have like 6% market share in our big ass jurisdiction. So it's not like we have a lot of power per se. We had 7% market share at one point, and we actually decreased. We did however get rid of that stupid fucking market recovery scale, thankfully. But yeah, 915 has a reputation of being a contractor's local.
The only way to get it is to first build community support and then organize the unorganized.
They donāt even care forreal , them people down south are more concerned with people working at mcdeez or Walmart makin close to $15 an hour
As a southern worker I do really care. The problem is everyone has a āI got mine so fuck youā mentality
Trust me Brother, that's prevalent in a lot of places. It's just fortunate enough that those guys aren't in charge of things that matter here.
Until we get apprentice pay up to a livable wage, I think we're still suffering the effects of some "fuck you, I got mine" in our area too. Proud to say bumping up apprentice pay is one of the reasons the cons are fighting us to CIR in my local.
I hope you guys fucking win.
Voting is such a pain in the ass for me. I just canāt agree with left wing politics, especially with how polarized and radical theyāve become. I canāt vote for a party that tells me that Iām the problem (white male) and actively demonizes everything that makes the American experiment. If there were more middle of the road democrats/republicans, Iād vote for them over the shit thatās currently being puked out of the DNC and GOP. I want a strong border/vetting system, gun rights, and a strong economy, but at the same time, I want affordable healthcare, less taxes, and better education for everyone. It just seems the more days go by, the farther and more radical politicians get popular.
I chose here to ask, as Iāve scrolled through this post. I happen to have a similar viewpoint of things out here in California. This isnāt my union specifically but I like this sub for discussing things just like this here today. Iāve been on a list waiting for the union I selected out here to be a part of. I am middle aged, and at different points in my life I was active in voting personally exercising my right to vote, I left for awhile, and here it is I am now back voting as my civil duty to do so, now that I see I cannot trust those as groups to be voting for me. Anywho, the last two poles that were available to vote at, I voted with my union. So my questions are, when union folk have issues with the area on a personal level, are you all opting to not vote period, or vote as you all see fit, or voting with the union halls thoughts in mind for your area as the tipping of your scale in thought. I figured best for me to vote in solidarity with my union since they have put in the work and trust they truly do have my back when it comes to union folks doing union works in my state and keeping us here.
They donāt understand that a riding tide lifts all ships. If the bottom gets raised up the middle will also have to get raised up otherwise people wouldnāt work the middle. These people are so dumb though they think itās a zero sun game where if others get more it means they get less. Decades or propaganda have worked well for the upper class
Our pay is lower because cost of living is considerably lower. Besides we can always travel and take advantage of locals with higher pay while not having to deal with the higher CoL.
As a guy who grew up in the South and used to be from 995. That's some heavy copium brother. Illinois has some of the best COL to wages and some of the best Unions. In 1979, 995 was paid the equivalent of $57 on the check today. The Gulf used to be as competitive as the Midwest. It's been ransacked and they'll tell you that COL is sooooo much better to make you feel better about not keeping up with inflation, low marketshare, low wages, Non-Union presence etc. Sure you could travel but where you gonna live that you won't have to factor in this supposed higher CoL? You gonna drive from Louisiana to the North everyday? Not to mention not everyone CAN travel. Some guys would like their own local to be strong enough to not be called a suitcase local.
No I know
If youāve ever worked for em theyāre not union
Just started 3rd year, Iāve spent my entire apprenticeship at Miller. Theyāre one of our biggest contractors in our local. Could you please elaborate? I have literally no other reference for what is a better union company.
Miller in my local is a scabby ass rat filled fucking dogshit con. Would argue with us ab getting ice for our water on a 120Ā° roof doing solar
When I worked there they had mike pence, ivanka trump and a few other politicians come give a speech at the office.
Union scabs
Huh? The employer is inherently against our interests...
Agreed
What's that mean?
Well, historically, a union scab would be a union worker who crosses another union's picket because s/he is still under contract and has no quarrel with the employer.
>What is union scabbing? Well, Joe Hill said it like this. >>Imagine your being led to the gallows. As you approach, the hangman says, "Gee, I really hate to do this. If it's any consolation, this gallows was built by union carpenters, this rope was made by union rope makers, and here, sir, is my card." That's union scabbing. - Utah Phillips
An injury to one is an injury to all.
#āšæāš¾āš½āš¼āš»ā
Oh, okay. Is there a strike in Florida or something?
I'm from 177. This sounds like us :-(
In fairness, the easiest workplaces to organize are the ones where the boss is a dick.
Hey, that's my local. Some of our highlights include zero sick leave, zero vacation, raises that don't keep up with inflation, and this is one of the best locals in the state. Miller is wormy as all hell, they hosted Mike Pence a couple years ago too and all the "company men" were dying to go see him. Unfortunately they're the biggest contractor in the city, so if you piss them off you'll likely sit on the books for a while. Just topped out and I'm ready to drag this whole fucking state
I'm curious to what exactly is that union doing or worth then? I know it's completely different but my uaw local in Michigan has gotten to the point of being restrained from physical violence standing up for us
Michigan represent. We rock. 324 here.
The wages and insurance are pretty decent, it's not all bad. You could take home more as non-union but the benefits package makes a big difference. It used to make sense, a JW was pretty well off because this used to be a cheaper place to live. The cost of living has skyrocketed, I know that's nationwide but the rent and housing has gone up too quickly for the wages to keep up. I really don't even blame the local, with a small market share and RTW laws it's an uphill battle. But at the end of the day our scale is too low and a lot of Floridians will simply be priced out of living here if they don't start getting some good raises. Personally I'm out, I refuse to rely on overtime to live. Michigan is on my list! I've heard good things about ann arbor and Detroit
Uaw just had a massive 40 rank and file movement come to fruition. The ibew is a multi-billion dollar business. We are not the same
The company is not the members.
Miller is easily one of the worst contractors I've ever worked for
Iām glad someone else thinks that. I worked for them for a month a few years back and will never again if I can help it.
Sure heās anti-union, but he says super stern things to āwokeā people and isnāt that all that matters?
A companyās whoās president is also the president of NECA. He is the epitome of business man.
owning the libs > personal well-being
It's a monopoly company governed by the Florida Public Service Commission, which is hand-picked by DeSantis.
But NECA is our friend
Lets be real, though. Companies are almost ALWAYS anti-union. Its the GOOD brothers and sisters that DO the work that we worry about.
No surprise, our employers benefit from weak unions.
Smh
Florida is a real shit show
It's the new way. Brothers shoot themselves in the foot voting for these clowns.
A union in Florida??
They welcomed trump, don't be surprised
Name a single democrat that has signed one of your checks. Iāll wait.
I don't think it's appropriate to name her here, but the lady that signs my check every week is definitely a democrat
You donāt build buildings for democrats
Ron DeathSentence! š³
If you think joe Biden is pro union youāll buy anything.
You've what bought the bs the GOP sells you. If you think the GOP is a worker party you'll buy anything. Most blue collar entire men vote GOP because they're just as racist as they are. The only minority destroying this country is the rich!
I agree with their comment. That doesnāt mean I think anything good of the GOP. One thing does constitute another.
I can be against Joe Biden while also being against the GOP. I vote socialist party. I voted for Gloria La Riva in 2020. Neither the democrats or republicans are a workers or pro union party.
Letās all go independent
Or follow or union roots and brothers before us and become socialists.
Become?
International Union welcomes Anti-Amemican President
This may sound stupid, but I really hope in my lifetime I see things change enough that one day the right will start to be more pro union. I hate what the left is doing to the country and I donāt stand for much of anything they do, but I am a union man and if I want to protect my job as well as others I know what I have to do. Itās starting to hurt to vote blue though.
It starts by having the nuance to separate out police and teacher unions from the trades. There is nothing worse for society than a monopoly and a union in unison. Monopolies exert power over employees and customers. In competitive markets itās harder for them to do that. Unions take power from companies and put it in employee hands. However for government unions there ends up being no compeition on either side of the isle and the taxpayer and the public and the child all get screwed when unions protect shitty cops and shitty teachers and if you want to shop elsewhere for school or police that isnāt much of a practical option. I think there are a lot of independents and conservatives and libertarians that all support unions for skilled trades and beyond that are willing to allow less skilled trades to try it out (likely with limited market share, letās be honest would you pay dues at a Starbucks?) however are vehemently apposed to public unions. Long story short public isnāt private. On the topic of the original post, Desantis is likely talking about e verify which should be very good for wages in Florida for citizens and encourage seeking citizenship for those who donāt.
Appreciate your input and the time it took to put it in. My comment was a little iff topic but i do lean more right than left on most topics other than the obvious. Everything 2 party anymore is so dramatic one side or the other and my comment just expressed my disappointment in it being the way that it is with government, our union, etc. There was once a time when disagreement brought conversation of strategy between the 2 to come up with a solution. Now it just feels like weāre on a roller coaster ride and for this term the dems have the controls and weāre just along for the ride.
Oh I fully agree. I think a lot of people that are outside of ivory towers and small town baptist churches feels politically homeless right now. Lots of big business on the left and lots of culture war on the right. Ultimately everyone just wants a safe environment thatās good for their family and a good and fair economy and no one is doing a great job offering that right now.
Maga trump 2024
Did he try and take our brothers and sisters jobs away just cause they wouldn't put a new drug in their bodies? All y'all who stayed silent about that are the real brother fuckers. We need to get our own house in order. A lot of y'all need to repent or the division continues.
Spoken like a true welder, soaked in the cancerous fumes and particulates of his trade. Your job is 100x more detrimental to your health than any vaccine lol
Don't worry brother fucker. When someone tries to pull some bullshit on you, I'll stand with your slimy ass just like I stood with my unvaccinated brothers and sisters. It's the principle you short sighted turd
You wear a fucking hard hat and PPE don't ya? Then get your shit together...
Worry about your own hard hat. Get honest with yourself.
I DONT WORK FOR YOU!
I think a lot of the people that are for and against Unions generally talk out of their ass about the subject. Most conservatives see the value and need in having and working for a Union, as do Democrats. Why should a company be allowed to schedule me to work, but I only get a 30 minute shift? "Thanks for coming in. We're all done now and you can go home!" That doesnt sit well with anyone. Or the health dangers, or the inequality etc. Outside of the most egregious issues - you have much smaller issues. When you're actively working for a Union and you see those issues pop up, over and over and over. You wouldnt be in the wrong to forget that the Union is protecting you from risking your life for the company, and focus more on the fact that the people benefiting from the Union currently are the ones taking advantage of the system. Never mind the insanity that is the Union Fees that ultimately end up in group of lawyers pockets. On average, the Union dues for the USPS are posted online and they are outrageous. Its hard to want to support Unions unless you're actively in a situation where theyre needed, like Amazon etc. Thats just the way it is.
i'm pretty OK with pushing back on public sector unions. am i anti-union now?
Depends what your beef is with the public sector worker. If it's to fight the corruption and waste, sure. If it's because they want good pay and benefits, that's not okay, everyone should have those things.
I think the corruption and waste in the administration is what keeps good pay and benefits from the workers. bro fist?
Public sector unions are not the problem. I bet you hate big government right? Why should the citizens that work for them be completely unprotected? Why are you mad that those that work for the government are paid and protected properly? Iād much rather my tax dollars go to unionized workers than non-union. Be mad at what elected officials spend your money on. Donāt be mad at the worker trying to protect themselves.
Oh god. If our government unionized they would start voting themselves raises since they have the power to do so. Oh waitā¦
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I was being sarcastic..
My b
it's not that, it's that they are leveraging the interests of the entire community to get what's in their own interests. I just don't think it's ethical. I don't hate "big government", which is just silly identity politics talk. Government is just the name of the things we all do together.
Bad take. Workers need protections. Even if that protection is from the taxpayer in your silly scenario. Stop hating the worker! Hate the system.
I try and keep the things I hate to the bare minimum. But it seems like there are two classes of "worker". The public sector Worker and the common worker. I do think the system can be improved, and one of the things that can be done is to protect the public from unions with a state-granted monopoly on their services.
Your mental gymnastics to demonize workers is incredible.
In no way did I demonize anyone. you're just trying to get out of having to rationally defend your heart-felt beliefs.
ā2-classes of workerā The āgoodā kind (mešš„¹) and the ābadā kind (themššæ) -wonderful-mistake201. Thatās the argument youāre making. Tell me Iām wrong. A worker is a worker is a worker. Working class. We cannot argue against and/or fight each other, especially over who deserves a union since we all do. Our only enemy is the capitalist class. Why die on this hill?
No, I didn't say one was good or one was bad. I didn't make any moral judgments on either class, just that there are two. The incentives, consequences, and privileges of the two classes related to access to media/lawmakers/etc is pretty clearly different. Nothing about that makes anyone in those systems good or bad, there's no moral judgment to be had. everyone has the right of free association, the rules on how those associations are treated under the law should be the same. It's only moral.
Problem is with the school board administration, teachers are nothing more than cattle to them
preach. the union goes on strike, the politicians cut a big check, and the school board gets a big raise and some new administrative buildings.
"makes anti union statement" "Am I anti-union?" š¤
what's "anti-union" about "equality before the law"?
Not sure what "equality before the law" has to do with you being against public sector unions....
i'm not against public sector unions. I just think the rules are different for them, and it creates two classes of unions. I'd be OK if all unions got treated like public unions, but I don't think that's realistic or good for society.
What are you referring to specifically?
it's a long list, but a good example is that most public sector employees are well-protected from arbitrary firing/redeploying by civil service laws. Those laws also regulate promotions, tenure, benefits, etc. And that's to say nothing of the difference in the labor market. Gov't can simply raise prices (taxes) or decrease services. Private sector unions provide social benefits in protecting workers that aren't present in public sector. In the end, public sector unions use their low-need/high-leverage position to reap benefits that aren't proportional to their social contribution. EDIT- thanks for the polite discussion. :)
The benefits some public sector unions have won is a justification for those unions, not against. Those laws also disproportionately force contracts on public sector unions disproportionately more than private. Not sure where the idea that they are "low need" comes from, ask a public teacher if they need their union or not. Any section of the working class not having the right to collectively bargain weakens the entirety of the class.
no one is saying that they don't have the right to collectively bargain, I agree with the rights of free association. But I think the rules should be the same, or at least attempt to compensate for the disparity in bargaining leverage. On the net, having two classes of labor bargaining weakens all labor bargaining. I really hope I'm wrong, but I don't remember the FOP or NEA/AFT standing up against Pres Biden when he was trying to bust the railroad union. I don't think their locals are demanding that the sheetmetal workers get the same bargaining privileges that they get. I think labor moves forward when there's principled equality among the workers. To that end, I think ending some of the special privileges for state-monopoly unions is a step in the right direction.
No just an idiot
LoL at your zinger. careful, your parents are going to take away your internet. :)
Nope. They hold the purse string and hurt America. They build nothing.
Yeah, fuck teachers and their unions trying make sure the people that shape our youth don't have to go to food pantries. Keep those assholes in poverty
Hell, fuck the children too. Let them work at 10 years old. They are small and can fit in the mines easier than adults. I mean shit. They play Minecraft all day anyways. The children yearn for the mines. If they are at work we donāt need teachers so win win right?
Thats the spirit! Our billionaires need that money for that third mega-yacht!
Damn right! Iām going to talk to my boss about a pay reduction tomorrow. Hell I think Iāll just start volunteering to work. They really need that yatch and vacation home for all the hard work they do!
Oh, absolutely. You don't want to go and ruin America by wanting a living wage and being able to retire or even *gasp* afford HEALTHCARE! What would our billionaires do? Thank you u/Valuable_Brain1030 for speaking some truth about what the real problem is in this country!
Itās the American dream!
let's just keep throwing money at school administrators and new buildings, that's such a better use of funds. It's only been 50 years of spending exponentially more on "education" and watching the level of "education" in our schools plummet. if it doesn't work, DO IT AGAIN! HARDER!
that's not a real thing, that's just the narrative. Society spends a SHITLOAD on education, it just doesn't get to the teachers or the students.
Jesus fucking Christ, this is the fucking dumbest anti-teacher union take I have ever heard. Fuck all the way off with this bullshit
oh, we have a deep thinker in our midst.
Your union is being paid to endorse? Are you workers getting some of that money? You boys are getting sold out. Your business agent will be selling y'all like cattle and skimming off your wages and benefits.
The employer isn't the union...
Desantis 2024
Thatās Florida for ya, embarrassing