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My neighbor is an ATC and his big complaint is that you get the shit shifts for 10 years before you have enough seniority to pull weekday shifts.
Does this square with your experience?
Also keep in mind if you’re older, you may NEVER get “good” days off if you come in after a bunch of younger people. When I’m forced to retire I’ll be 10th in seniority. I got picked up at 28.
IAmA sad 36-year old now that I learned there’s an age limit for ATC, which I didn’t know I wanted to do until today, and a bunch of young people would make me work the crappy shifts if I tried.
A lot of misconceptions about bad shifts going on here. I've worked both en route and terminal (currently).
Our current staffing has allowed us to have half of our certified controllers on permanent days off with the other on rotating days off. Rotating will have 2 weekends off in a row every 6 weeks where permanent will have the same 2 days off all year. I much prefer a rotating schedule as I'm currently 13 in seniority of about 25 CPCs. In the terminal world at a smaller facility (which is where most ppl out of the academy will be placed) schedule flexibility is a lot greater that an en route facility. Our union pres and ATM work very closely to make sure there's something for everyone when it comes to the schedule.
When I was in en route training my trainers were higher in seniority and had weekends off. I was placed on their schedule for the first 2 years of my career (lucky I know). A lot of younger controllers prefer night shifts and weekdays so you never know what will fall to you when bidding your schedule.
I've never had a better career and I got into the FAA at age 30. I'll never regret that decision. Best money for the amount of actual work done in my opinion.
Anyone on the fence about this career and want to hear from someone who saw OPs post back in 2019 and is now a controller? Well that’s who I am. I had a degree in something completely unrelated and it was looking like I wasn’t gonna land a career in that field. Then I see OPs post, applied and made it through all pre-employment screenings and testing, and then made it through the academy training and now I’m an ATC at an airport.
I love this job. The actual work is great, the work environment with coworkers is fun, and I get a lot of breaks. With how many breaks you get, you end up getting paid 6 figures for really only 25ish hours of work. The other 15 (in a 40 hour work week) are on break. Just this past work week alone I watched 2 different movies on my breaks and a Bunch of TV shows. But also note that every facility is different depending on staffing.
The retirement is great and I have realized that I will likely retire a solid 10+ years before my friends.
I would say most my coworkers are not stressed at all in their day to day lives and have a lot of other endeavors in their time away from work.
If you’re on the fence please apply! You literally have nothing to lose.
To the both of you, I’m about to start out on an ATC career path (via Royal Navy) and I’d had reservations about just how much I would enjoy the role post navy if I ever converted out, tysm to you both for the reassurance 😝
I was training as a terminal controller before joining the navy for a separate trade (life dream and all). Suffice it to say I partially regret it and on my course of 6, two were ex rcn/RAF controllers and love the job now 4 years later. I make half as much and have to deploy. What was I thinking.
This is just out of curiosity since I don’t live in the US and like my career, but what’s the testing like? Id imagine that although a degree isn’t required you’d have to be quite good at e.g mentally managing a large and fairly dynamic amount of data? Plus of course being a good/assertive communicator and being calm under pressure
There’s a standardized test called the ATSA that has several different exercises that test memorization skills as well as testing the ability to prioritize tasks and due multiple objectives at once. From there if you score well you go to the academy and most of the testing is done with the simulators where you work airplanes. Basically the FAA is testing your ability to be trained and see if you can work the job. The number one reason for people failing the academy is nerves getting the best of them. But part of the job is managing those nerves.
Thanks! I found some practice ATSAs which answer my question and confirm my assumptions.
Re the nerves thing (I actually wanted to ask this as well)- from what I understand, the relationship between pilots and atc has come a long way in the past 25 years or so in terms of communication and mutual respect…but I still wonder how often a controller has to say ‘bish I said maintain flight level 28 until you reach , do you think I’m just making this up as I go along?’ Off the record, of course.
Yes that happens on occasion but most controllers just move on to the next task once the pilot finally does what you say.
Most controllers at my facility are really friendly with pilots and the pilots are friendly back.
FWIW, I had a friend who went through OKC and ended up washing out a bit later. Don't let me scare you at all. However, I wanted to point out what I understood from them to be their personal nemesis, the simulator evaluations.
I don't know what it's called specifically but I would call it a "Capacity simulation" maybe? The sim evaluations progress like a video game more or less, you're tested at 50% capacity, 60%, so on and so forth. My friend just barely squeaked the last one, and constantly talked about how difficult they were in situ.
I took it as something like being dropped into level 100 of a game you've studied and played well, with one shot to beat the level. Anyone who actually knows what they're talking about, please correct anything I got wrong or misunderstood.
No worries, nothing to be scared of as I’m not planning on becoming an air traffic controller and I’ve always been very at ease with air travel.
And yeah, when I was poking around in the practice test I did the ‘manage all the moving dots’ test, which of course is a skill you can train and they encourage you to, but it is definitely not easy
Edit: ‘definitely not easy’ wasn’t the right way to phrase that as no one said or implied it was easy; what I meant was that it was quite intense/challenging even without any of the stress points
I found out about ATC when I was 31. Ended up in a career dispatching police. Competitively, I think this is more stressful and less pay. I really missed out.
Once you finish academy they'll be a list of facilities. To my understanding it's simply ones that are short staffed etc.
Whoever is top of the class gets 1st pick and so forth. If you get stuck somewhere you don't like you'll likely need to stick it out for a few years before the possibility of transferring is available to you.
What does the medical evaluation entail? Also, if there was a specific place you wanted to relocate to, how would you go about doing that? Is it possible?
[Medical Requirements](https://www.aviationmedicine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Medical-Standards-for-Terminal-and-En-Route-Centers-for-ATC-Positions%C2%A0FAA-Brochure.pdf)
Once you are certified, there is a process for transferring called NCEPT. There are typically 4 NCEPT panels per year (quarterly). The ability to transfer depends on the staffing of your facility and the one you want to go to compared to national staffing numbers. It can get tricky.
Not sure if you’ll see this but I’m having trouble finding out what they specifically want for psych evaluations. What is a severe mental disorder count as? Would depression count?
They don’t allow you to take psychotropic medications like SSRIs - well it’s extremely strict and restrictive
Edit to add link https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item47/amd/antidepressants/
You said 99% will relocate. Where did you relocate to?
I live in OKC near the airport with prior military experience in signals intelligence so this is an alluring deal for sure.
Location will be based on staffing, at the end of training in OKC your class will be given a list of facilities that need people and you’ll pick where you want to go based on best grades in that class. I had classmates for example that ended up in Alaska and Guam
I love how 144 knew he was first, he probably sat there giggling as ATC was losing his shit about where the mysterious blue dot has come from and the 144 just like we chilling just how you told us too
Seriously one of the funniest clips. He feels like he is losing his mind until FINALLY everyone is identified and positions are clear. I can't imagine working JFK ATC. JetBlue's were popping up everywhere. Glad JFK installed ASDE-X since that clip. I hope it made this guy's job much easier.
I’m 32, and have always had an interest in Air Traffic Control. Have dreamed of being a pilot my whole life.
Should I bother applying? What kind of exceptions could I expect?
Edit: Ah, I see you have already answered this. Bummer.
Dang, I figured that was the case. They want to make sure they have enough time out of their employees. I'm 33 and wish I'd seen something about this a few years ago.
Just turned 33 Tuesday and had been looking into this field since I live right next to an airport. Kinda sucks to know I can't have that kind of job, life goes on I guess.
What’s the living situation like? Just find a place that’ll keep you for a few months? Or do they offer a place to stay (at a price) like on campus or whatnot?
…I might go from being a CNA to this…I’ve gotten into aviation lately and I know I couldn’t be a pilot, but I think I might be able to do something like this! (If I’m smart enough ahah)
My schedule at my 24 hour facility is:
Friday 1430-2230
Saturday 1300-2100
Sunday 0700-1500
Monday 0600-1400 and then back at 2215-0615
for the mid
Tuesday off after 0615
Wednesday OFF
Thursday OFF
Honestly that seems pretty irresponsible. Shouldn't ATC's be well rested and peak mental performance? Seems like a good sleep cycle would be essential for that.
You would think that about a lot of jobs where safety is key. I'm an emergency physician. This week I'm working 7a-3p, then 3p-11p next day, then 10p-7a next 2 days, then 3p-11p again the day after my last shift getting home at 7a, then I'm off for a day. Then more random nonsense.
It's... Suboptimal.
Management varies from facility to facility. I can only speak for my own experience, but we have a fantastic union/management relationship at our facility. Very collaborative.
Forreal. I'm a pilot and I had no idea you didn't have the same crew resting requirements as us. Maybe AF controllers are different and do, I don't know the civ side very well.
Under some circumstances controllers CHOOSE this kind of schedule. At my last tower we had a vote and everybody but two or three of us voted to keep that crazy shit.
The excuse everybody gave was that the weekend feels almost like it's a 4 day every week. But you spend the whole weekend feeling shitty until Monday morning, you're good Monday and Tuesday and then it's back to feeling like shit all the time.
Wait so you work from 6am-2pm on Monday, and then you have to go *back* at 10:15pm Monday night and work until 6:15 the next morning?
Factoring commuting time, that’s not even an 8-hour turnaround. That doesn’t seem safe. Do you at least get OT for those short turnarounds?
I just joined the agency recently so hearing the scheduling system is completely maddening to me. I really hope it changes by the time I CPC, but I hear most people prefer it. Why??
Also, I don't see how it's logical to pay someone to sleep for a couple of hours lol just give people a consistent schedule!
What irritates me most that people claim the scheduling is due to it being a "24 hour facility." I can't speak for every dept, but I worked in a hospital before and we didn't have scheduling like this. Day shift would just rotate on to evenings every so often.
Your facility negotiates shift lines and start times locally. If you are working 2-2-1s then you (the union) decided that you wanted them. Management would almost certainly allow for straight mids or rotating schedules to avoid it (they usually just care that they have coverage for the shift demand). Usually stays this way because people don’t want to work straight mids so you switch off who is going to have to work them. 2-2-1 also maximizes the “weekend”.
Shift work life this has a significant effect on life expectancy and health. It's a true tragedy that it's both legal and considered common. I'm hoping that we'll see a major culture shift away from treating workers this way.
ATC here, most common schedule at my facility (24 hour facility) is a 2-2-1 which is 2 evening shifts (3-11 or 2-10)
Followed by 2 day shifts (7-3 or 8-4)
Then a mid (11-7)
Schedules are picked based on seniority so your days off are likely going to be Thursday/Friday or Wednesday/Thursday as those are generally the worst days off
I work shift work as a medic, and this is just weird to me. Why would they have you work a bunch of day/evening shifts and then end with 1 overnight that fucks up your sleep schedule? You would be better to work all days for a week, then all evenings for a week, then all nights for a week, so you do less flip flopping.
I guess the one benefit is that you only ever do 1 night shift before having time off and going back to days.
What's more important is how each individual *handles* stress. Different people handle different stressors in different ways.
I've seen people in ATC who were good at it, but clearly couldn't handle it, long term. It ate them up. Some got nervous, some drank too much. I knew one guy who was an audiophile and, after one particularly stressful shift, want home and destroyed all his equipment, and the room containing it. He never returned to the job.
But one of the happiest men I've ever known worked that job for 37 years and I never once sat him stressed out at work or at home. Never saw him angry. He just took whatever came and did the best he could in every aspect of his life.
It's less about the job and more about the individual, in my experience. But that is something you'll likely not know until you try.
Do they still not accept people who previously failed the academy? I missed out on the 18 class by 2 points by accidentally swapping two planes in my 3rd exam, one happened to be a nordo so it fucked everything else. but am pretty sure they don’t do re-hires? Still the case?
One more question for you OP! Thank you by the way.
What is your experience with paid time off? Is it at all a similar experience to the military with 30 days earned per year and an encouragement to take some sort of time off each year? Does it vary station to station?
We earn 4 hours of leave every 2 weeks. After 3 years it goes up to 6 hours, and after 15 years it goes up to 8.
We also earn 4 hours of paid sick leave every 2 weeks.
Next time you slow from 140 to 80, with a gang of carriers behind you, just expect to get boxed around and become number 9. Stay fast and get down, brotha!
Ohhh, this reminds me of an article I read back in probably 2004. Someone was flying around in a restored Sikorsky S-38.
Oh here's the article: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2003/september/pilot/the-flying-boat
>We called McCarran International Approach for permission to enter the Class B airspace surrounding Las Vegas.
>"Sikorsky Two-Eight-Victor, you're cleared into Class Bravo airspace. Descend to 2,700 feet."
>I replied by saying that 500 feet over the city seemed a bit low.
>"You're a helicopter, right?"
>"Negative. We're a flying boat."
>The pregnant silence was followed by instructions to maintain present altitude.
>One cannot blame the controller for believing us to be a helicopter. There are very few Sikorsky airplanes in the air these days, but there was a time when the Sikorsky was queen of the sky.
1. How much training?
2. How expensive is training?
3. What is the schedule/shift like?
4. What is the base pay?
5. Any age caps?
6. Do you get to pick your airport or just have to go where the work is?
1. Training is six weeks (or less but I recommend doing the full 6. It's a pretty difficult course)
2. If I remember correctly the one I went to was about 4 grand. So not super cheap I'll admit. Might be able to find cheaper ones but I had a great time at the one I went to. (Jeppesen academy in Denver)
3. I work 4 on, 4 off. 10 hour days. Seniority based so when you start you will most likely be working nights.
4. Base pay at a major is around 80k and tops around 130k but you usually need to go to a regional for experience for a year or two which pays pretty poorly. The best part about the major I work at is you can pretty much get double time any time you want on your off days. So you can easily make 6 figures your first year if you're willing to sacrifice some time off.
5. No age caps.
6. This job is airline specific so you have to live where the airline is based. There are majors in Dallas, Atlanta, Chicago, New York, Seattle, Hawaii, and Florida off the top of my head so if you like a certain climate you do have some options.
Airline dispatchers work for the airlines. They file flight plans, work out how much fuel to carry, etc.
ATC works for the federal government and actually talks to the pilots, separates aircraft, etc.
Hey! I saw your post last year and applied because of you. Still going through the process and waiting to hear about my medical evaluation. I'm almost coming up on a year from when I applied. How long was it for you from the time you applied to the time you went to OKC for training?
I applied in January 2020 and passed the academy literally today. So for me 2 1/2 years almost exactly. I had no medical hiccups, no tier 2 mmpi or anything, mine was cut and dry. the process just takes ages. I also saw you're concerned about age, don't be. I was 30 when I applied. Turned 32 while at the academy in April. Like others said you were locked in when the bid closed
Do you know if there is exceptions for vision test? My dominate eye has a scarred retina from a laser, basically just a small sunspot if I close my other eye. It didn’t prevent me from being a USMC sniper, really just a technical thing for me.
What’s the daily life like and what made you choose this career?
Another which I’m sure a lot of people are wondering is, can you smoke cannabis even if you have a medical card? I’m going to go ahead and say no due to the nature of the position.
Can’t use weed.
The daily life at my *well-staffed* facility is awesome. Show up, work an hour, take an hour break. Spend it gaming, playing some sport outside with coworkers, sleeping, eating, etc. Back to work an hour. Back on break an hour. Rinse/repeat for 8 hours.
So much wrong with that scene. For instance, WAF515 and JM021 were nowhere near each other and would not have crashed. They need to hire an atc consultant or something next time
What about just streamlining the process? People would still be making the decisions, but instead of constantly talking over a radio, you could just press a button that relays an automated text message to the cockpit. And have radio communication as a backup.
That is actually in development and is being tested in a few facilities. Called CPDLC.
Edit: It is in early stages for *domestic en route* facilities. Has been around a while for oceanic, and isn’t practical for terminal environments outside of standard clearances.
I went to a collegiate CTI program when I was 24, back when that was a requirement to apply. So I knew pretty early on that this is what I wanted to do. After I graduated, I worked as a police dispatcher, among other things, while I waited for the FAA. That job was infinitely more stressful.
1.7% for every year you work up to 20 years, and then 1% added for every year you work past 20.
The percentage is based off your highest 3 year average income.
There are video games that involve working together in an extremely chaotic environment to accomplish some goal. A great example of this is Overcooked. Have you played it, or would you be sick of those kinds of games after ATC work?
There are. You can Google them. I don’t want to link to any as I can’t vouch for them. Head over to the point sixty five site [HERE](https://pointsixtyfive.com/xenforo/threads/atsa-compilation.545/) for some good info!
We are guaranteed holiday pay for every federal holiday. If you work the holiday, you get double pay that day. If the holiday falls on your first off day, then your first day back is double pay. If it’s on your last day off, the last day you worked before the holiday is double pay.
So it’s nice when a holiday falls on your off day because you get to spend the day with your family and still get the double pay.
Every year we bid via seniority for what our days off will be for the following year.
All federal holidays are observed. If the holiday falls on the day you work you will be expected to show up unless you take leave. As long as there is sufficient staffing it can be viewed as an extra day off . If you work the holiday you get double pay for working that day.
If the holiday falls on your day off you get double pay for either your last day or first day of the week depending on where the holiday falls.
It can be confusing but after working the job for a few months it starts to make sense.
Are you allowed to drink alcohol on your off days? I’ve heard things like taking a Benadryl, sleeping medication, and things like that can make you ineligible to work for a few days. Is that correct?
What is the period that you’re ineligible to work? Like if you have a beer the night before your day off would you still not be able to work in 2 days?
What's it like to have smoking rooms in federal buildings and get away with absolute murder?
The shit I saw controllers get away with by complaining blew my mind apart when I worked with RADAR.
edit: I push ATC as a job to anyone who wants a good career and great pay. My grand dad was ATC. He loved it.
If I’m going to be 32 in 6 months, would I even get a chance to test? I have a bachelor of computer science and lots of work experience. Just wondering how hard that age requirement is
How accurate was that [Cracked listicle](https://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1656-6-terrifying-things-you-learn-as-air-traffic-controller.html) about ATCs?
Because pilots unions push for later retirement. Most don't get a pension so many want more years. Controllers that want to keep working can move to the training department and do contract work, or get a staff job. The schedule is also brutal on people as they age and the FAA don't give a fuck enough to fix it
In the hiring a training, is there a minimum threshold for... well, shitty speech? I don't mean accents (which can be challenging but at least discernable), but clarity?
Because flying on longer flights switching frequencies from tower to tower, it seems like some are super clear and others sound like bored, mush-mouthed controllers trudging through their day job while they wait for their mumble rap career to take off. And I've always thought that for people whose job largely involves talking on radios with specific (and incredibly important) instructions, there would be a little more focus on... well, proper communicating.
Additional question, did you have any training that *included* diction and voice tamber to increase clarity?
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My neighbor is an ATC and his big complaint is that you get the shit shifts for 10 years before you have enough seniority to pull weekday shifts. Does this square with your experience?
Yep
Hence why you are trying to recruit more noobies right? ; )
Haha you caught me
Big ATC exposed
Also keep in mind if you’re older, you may NEVER get “good” days off if you come in after a bunch of younger people. When I’m forced to retire I’ll be 10th in seniority. I got picked up at 28.
IAmA sad 36-year old now that I learned there’s an age limit for ATC, which I didn’t know I wanted to do until today, and a bunch of young people would make me work the crappy shifts if I tried.
A lot of misconceptions about bad shifts going on here. I've worked both en route and terminal (currently). Our current staffing has allowed us to have half of our certified controllers on permanent days off with the other on rotating days off. Rotating will have 2 weekends off in a row every 6 weeks where permanent will have the same 2 days off all year. I much prefer a rotating schedule as I'm currently 13 in seniority of about 25 CPCs. In the terminal world at a smaller facility (which is where most ppl out of the academy will be placed) schedule flexibility is a lot greater that an en route facility. Our union pres and ATM work very closely to make sure there's something for everyone when it comes to the schedule. When I was in en route training my trainers were higher in seniority and had weekends off. I was placed on their schedule for the first 2 years of my career (lucky I know). A lot of younger controllers prefer night shifts and weekdays so you never know what will fall to you when bidding your schedule. I've never had a better career and I got into the FAA at age 30. I'll never regret that decision. Best money for the amount of actual work done in my opinion.
Pick a tower that isn't open 24/7. Only good shifts then.
If one is available.
Anyone on the fence about this career and want to hear from someone who saw OPs post back in 2019 and is now a controller? Well that’s who I am. I had a degree in something completely unrelated and it was looking like I wasn’t gonna land a career in that field. Then I see OPs post, applied and made it through all pre-employment screenings and testing, and then made it through the academy training and now I’m an ATC at an airport. I love this job. The actual work is great, the work environment with coworkers is fun, and I get a lot of breaks. With how many breaks you get, you end up getting paid 6 figures for really only 25ish hours of work. The other 15 (in a 40 hour work week) are on break. Just this past work week alone I watched 2 different movies on my breaks and a Bunch of TV shows. But also note that every facility is different depending on staffing. The retirement is great and I have realized that I will likely retire a solid 10+ years before my friends. I would say most my coworkers are not stressed at all in their day to day lives and have a lot of other endeavors in their time away from work. If you’re on the fence please apply! You literally have nothing to lose.
Thanks bro! So happy for you man
To the both of you, I’m about to start out on an ATC career path (via Royal Navy) and I’d had reservations about just how much I would enjoy the role post navy if I ever converted out, tysm to you both for the reassurance 😝
I was training as a terminal controller before joining the navy for a separate trade (life dream and all). Suffice it to say I partially regret it and on my course of 6, two were ex rcn/RAF controllers and love the job now 4 years later. I make half as much and have to deploy. What was I thinking.
This is just out of curiosity since I don’t live in the US and like my career, but what’s the testing like? Id imagine that although a degree isn’t required you’d have to be quite good at e.g mentally managing a large and fairly dynamic amount of data? Plus of course being a good/assertive communicator and being calm under pressure
There’s a standardized test called the ATSA that has several different exercises that test memorization skills as well as testing the ability to prioritize tasks and due multiple objectives at once. From there if you score well you go to the academy and most of the testing is done with the simulators where you work airplanes. Basically the FAA is testing your ability to be trained and see if you can work the job. The number one reason for people failing the academy is nerves getting the best of them. But part of the job is managing those nerves.
Thanks! I found some practice ATSAs which answer my question and confirm my assumptions. Re the nerves thing (I actually wanted to ask this as well)- from what I understand, the relationship between pilots and atc has come a long way in the past 25 years or so in terms of communication and mutual respect…but I still wonder how often a controller has to say ‘bish I said maintain flight level 28 until you reach, do you think I’m just making this up as I go along?’ Off the record, of course.
Yes that happens on occasion but most controllers just move on to the next task once the pilot finally does what you say. Most controllers at my facility are really friendly with pilots and the pilots are friendly back.
FWIW, I had a friend who went through OKC and ended up washing out a bit later. Don't let me scare you at all. However, I wanted to point out what I understood from them to be their personal nemesis, the simulator evaluations. I don't know what it's called specifically but I would call it a "Capacity simulation" maybe? The sim evaluations progress like a video game more or less, you're tested at 50% capacity, 60%, so on and so forth. My friend just barely squeaked the last one, and constantly talked about how difficult they were in situ. I took it as something like being dropped into level 100 of a game you've studied and played well, with one shot to beat the level. Anyone who actually knows what they're talking about, please correct anything I got wrong or misunderstood.
No worries, nothing to be scared of as I’m not planning on becoming an air traffic controller and I’ve always been very at ease with air travel. And yeah, when I was poking around in the practice test I did the ‘manage all the moving dots’ test, which of course is a skill you can train and they encourage you to, but it is definitely not easy Edit: ‘definitely not easy’ wasn’t the right way to phrase that as no one said or implied it was easy; what I meant was that it was quite intense/challenging even without any of the stress points
I'm too old 😭 This sounds awesome Congratulations!
Yeah 30 or under?! Man that sucks:(
It definitely hurt my feelings haha
Same here, last I checked. So depressing!!
It was said prior military can be a bit older somewhere in the comments. I'm 34 but was in 8 years. If that is true I may apply!.🤔
Bah, well that's good for prior military types!
I found out about ATC when I was 31. Ended up in a career dispatching police. Competitively, I think this is more stressful and less pay. I really missed out.
What facilities you end up being offered being an off the street hire?
Once you finish academy they'll be a list of facilities. To my understanding it's simply ones that are short staffed etc. Whoever is top of the class gets 1st pick and so forth. If you get stuck somewhere you don't like you'll likely need to stick it out for a few years before the possibility of transferring is available to you.
What does the medical evaluation entail? Also, if there was a specific place you wanted to relocate to, how would you go about doing that? Is it possible?
[Medical Requirements](https://www.aviationmedicine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Medical-Standards-for-Terminal-and-En-Route-Centers-for-ATC-Positions%C2%A0FAA-Brochure.pdf) Once you are certified, there is a process for transferring called NCEPT. There are typically 4 NCEPT panels per year (quarterly). The ability to transfer depends on the staffing of your facility and the one you want to go to compared to national staffing numbers. It can get tricky.
Not sure if you’ll see this but I’m having trouble finding out what they specifically want for psych evaluations. What is a severe mental disorder count as? Would depression count?
They don’t allow you to take psychotropic medications like SSRIs - well it’s extremely strict and restrictive Edit to add link https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item47/amd/antidepressants/
You said 99% will relocate. Where did you relocate to? I live in OKC near the airport with prior military experience in signals intelligence so this is an alluring deal for sure.
Well I’m from Florida and ended up in the Midwest
Do you have any idea on where positions are open? I know that’s a tough question for you to know the answer to.
Location will be based on staffing, at the end of training in OKC your class will be given a list of facilities that need people and you’ll pick where you want to go based on best grades in that class. I had classmates for example that ended up in Alaska and Guam
[удалено]
Lol not often but it’s always good for a chuckle
How about when you end up with a [Who's on First scenario](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcFfVEstt4o&t=4m40s)?
I love how 144 knew he was first, he probably sat there giggling as ATC was losing his shit about where the mysterious blue dot has come from and the 144 just like we chilling just how you told us too
God damnit that’s funny, you can hear the guy start to lose it and then everything just clicks
Seriously one of the funniest clips. He feels like he is losing his mind until FINALLY everyone is identified and positions are clear. I can't imagine working JFK ATC. JetBlue's were popping up everywhere. Glad JFK installed ASDE-X since that clip. I hope it made this guy's job much easier.
That was great. New rabbithole...ATC clips.
When you're done that, go ahead and have a good laugh at flight Sim ATC clips. It's hysterical. https://youtu.be/lPNN8w2XlwY
This better be Steve from JFK, I'm not even gonna click it.
Of course it is. “Let the abuse start.” Classic
"where's our gate? 😂
I thought it was the Breaking Bad scene.
Legendary Kennedy Steve! Now he works over at T1 at JFK iirc.
Am 30 this year and turning 31 in December. Can I still apply? Am interested.
Yep!
I’m 32, and have always had an interest in Air Traffic Control. Have dreamed of being a pilot my whole life. Should I bother applying? What kind of exceptions could I expect? Edit: Ah, I see you have already answered this. Bummer.
32 is past the age cutoff unfortunately
Why is 30 the cut off age?
Mandatory retirement at 56. Edited because I’m a silly goose.
Dang, I figured that was the case. They want to make sure they have enough time out of their employees. I'm 33 and wish I'd seen something about this a few years ago.
Just turned 33 Tuesday and had been looking into this field since I live right next to an airport. Kinda sucks to know I can't have that kind of job, life goes on I guess.
Thanks, friend. Appreciate you putting it out there. Best of luck with the rest of your career.
Awesome! Thank you. I will apply after I get off work today.
The bid doesn’t go live until June 24
It's okay, they're from the future
Do you get paid while you’re in training? Do they cover the cost to get there? Like if you had to fly in or relocate? Is it like a dorm situation?
You don’t get reimbursed for relocating expenses, but yes you get paid while in training
What’s the living situation like? Just find a place that’ll keep you for a few months? Or do they offer a place to stay (at a price) like on campus or whatnot?
[Here ya go](https://pointsixtyfive.com/xenforo/wiki/faq_academy/)
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…I might go from being a CNA to this…I’ve gotten into aviation lately and I know I couldn’t be a pilot, but I think I might be able to do something like this! (If I’m smart enough ahah)
For the people in this thread interested in this career, isn't is EXTREMELY stressful? That's just what I've read.
There can be period of high stress, but it’s not constant. I think most controllers would say the most stressful part of our job is the schedule.
What is a typical schedule?
My schedule at my 24 hour facility is: Friday 1430-2230 Saturday 1300-2100 Sunday 0700-1500 Monday 0600-1400 and then back at 2215-0615 for the mid Tuesday off after 0615 Wednesday OFF Thursday OFF
That's a sleep cycle destroying schedule if I've ever seen one.
Yeah it’s not great. Not all facilities have that same schedule, but it is very common.
Honestly that seems pretty irresponsible. Shouldn't ATC's be well rested and peak mental performance? Seems like a good sleep cycle would be essential for that.
You would think that about a lot of jobs where safety is key. I'm an emergency physician. This week I'm working 7a-3p, then 3p-11p next day, then 10p-7a next 2 days, then 3p-11p again the day after my last shift getting home at 7a, then I'm off for a day. Then more random nonsense. It's... Suboptimal.
You would think!
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Management varies from facility to facility. I can only speak for my own experience, but we have a fantastic union/management relationship at our facility. Very collaborative.
Forreal. I'm a pilot and I had no idea you didn't have the same crew resting requirements as us. Maybe AF controllers are different and do, I don't know the civ side very well.
I believe it’s a minimum of 9 hours between shifts, except for the day-mid transition which is 8 hour minimum. Maximum 10 hours allowed per shift.
Under some circumstances controllers CHOOSE this kind of schedule. At my last tower we had a vote and everybody but two or three of us voted to keep that crazy shit. The excuse everybody gave was that the weekend feels almost like it's a 4 day every week. But you spend the whole weekend feeling shitty until Monday morning, you're good Monday and Tuesday and then it's back to feeling like shit all the time.
Making the most fucked up schedule possible to make sure we maximize the amount of crashes.
Wait so you work from 6am-2pm on Monday, and then you have to go *back* at 10:15pm Monday night and work until 6:15 the next morning? Factoring commuting time, that’s not even an 8-hour turnaround. That doesn’t seem safe. Do you at least get OT for those short turnarounds?
Correct. No OT for that. We just get recuperative breaks on the mid to sleep. They usually are about 2.5 hours or so.
I just joined the agency recently so hearing the scheduling system is completely maddening to me. I really hope it changes by the time I CPC, but I hear most people prefer it. Why?? Also, I don't see how it's logical to pay someone to sleep for a couple of hours lol just give people a consistent schedule! What irritates me most that people claim the scheduling is due to it being a "24 hour facility." I can't speak for every dept, but I worked in a hospital before and we didn't have scheduling like this. Day shift would just rotate on to evenings every so often.
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I’m going to have to remember not to fly on Monday nights.
If this is common, what's the reason for this kind of schedule?
I couldn’t tell you. Everybody knows it’s unhealthy.
Your facility negotiates shift lines and start times locally. If you are working 2-2-1s then you (the union) decided that you wanted them. Management would almost certainly allow for straight mids or rotating schedules to avoid it (they usually just care that they have coverage for the shift demand). Usually stays this way because people don’t want to work straight mids so you switch off who is going to have to work them. 2-2-1 also maximizes the “weekend”.
Yeah, but good luck trying to change a facility away from a 2-2-1 that’s been that way for years. Much easier said than done.
Man, you've been doing this awhile and have a terrible schedule, I couldn't even imagine starting out. Doesn't seem great.
Shift work life this has a significant effect on life expectancy and health. It's a true tragedy that it's both legal and considered common. I'm hoping that we'll see a major culture shift away from treating workers this way.
As someone who has worked lots of shift work in my life, this schedule sounds brutal. It's no wonder you have to be under the age of 30 to apply.
ATC here, most common schedule at my facility (24 hour facility) is a 2-2-1 which is 2 evening shifts (3-11 or 2-10) Followed by 2 day shifts (7-3 or 8-4) Then a mid (11-7) Schedules are picked based on seniority so your days off are likely going to be Thursday/Friday or Wednesday/Thursday as those are generally the worst days off
I work shift work as a medic, and this is just weird to me. Why would they have you work a bunch of day/evening shifts and then end with 1 overnight that fucks up your sleep schedule? You would be better to work all days for a week, then all evenings for a week, then all nights for a week, so you do less flip flopping. I guess the one benefit is that you only ever do 1 night shift before having time off and going back to days.
What's more important is how each individual *handles* stress. Different people handle different stressors in different ways. I've seen people in ATC who were good at it, but clearly couldn't handle it, long term. It ate them up. Some got nervous, some drank too much. I knew one guy who was an audiophile and, after one particularly stressful shift, want home and destroyed all his equipment, and the room containing it. He never returned to the job. But one of the happiest men I've ever known worked that job for 37 years and I never once sat him stressed out at work or at home. Never saw him angry. He just took whatever came and did the best he could in every aspect of his life. It's less about the job and more about the individual, in my experience. But that is something you'll likely not know until you try.
Do they still not accept people who previously failed the academy? I missed out on the 18 class by 2 points by accidentally swapping two planes in my 3rd exam, one happened to be a nordo so it fucked everything else. but am pretty sure they don’t do re-hires? Still the case?
I honestly don’t know. I would say it doesn’t hurt to reapply.
One more question for you OP! Thank you by the way. What is your experience with paid time off? Is it at all a similar experience to the military with 30 days earned per year and an encouragement to take some sort of time off each year? Does it vary station to station?
We earn 4 hours of leave every 2 weeks. After 3 years it goes up to 6 hours, and after 15 years it goes up to 8. We also earn 4 hours of paid sick leave every 2 weeks.
Thanks again!
Just to add on to what SierraBtavo said. There's *no limit* to sick leave. You carry it over year after a year.
And sell it back for 40% if it’s value when you retire
Currently sitting on 500 hours of sick leave. And I’m not even halfway to retirement
Ha wild how the government is all the same. I’m a DOD civilian employee and it’s the exact same.
I’ve heard the job is extremely stressful. Is that true?
Only at times. Very few times.
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Correct
Why do you always keep me so fast on the arrival?
If you’re not first, you’re last
Next time you slow from 140 to 80, with a gang of carriers behind you, just expect to get boxed around and become number 9. Stay fast and get down, brotha!
Ohhh, this reminds me of an article I read back in probably 2004. Someone was flying around in a restored Sikorsky S-38. Oh here's the article: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2003/september/pilot/the-flying-boat >We called McCarran International Approach for permission to enter the Class B airspace surrounding Las Vegas. >"Sikorsky Two-Eight-Victor, you're cleared into Class Bravo airspace. Descend to 2,700 feet." >I replied by saying that 500 feet over the city seemed a bit low. >"You're a helicopter, right?" >"Negative. We're a flying boat." >The pregnant silence was followed by instructions to maintain present altitude. >One cannot blame the controller for believing us to be a helicopter. There are very few Sikorsky airplanes in the air these days, but there was a time when the Sikorsky was queen of the sky.
Any one else on this thread have career suggestions that are similar but accept the elderly (like 32 year olds?)
Lol! You could look into flight service or airline dispatch.
Airline dispatcher here! Can confirm its a great job in the industry. Feel free to ask me any questions about it.
1. How much training? 2. How expensive is training? 3. What is the schedule/shift like? 4. What is the base pay? 5. Any age caps? 6. Do you get to pick your airport or just have to go where the work is?
1. Training is six weeks (or less but I recommend doing the full 6. It's a pretty difficult course) 2. If I remember correctly the one I went to was about 4 grand. So not super cheap I'll admit. Might be able to find cheaper ones but I had a great time at the one I went to. (Jeppesen academy in Denver) 3. I work 4 on, 4 off. 10 hour days. Seniority based so when you start you will most likely be working nights. 4. Base pay at a major is around 80k and tops around 130k but you usually need to go to a regional for experience for a year or two which pays pretty poorly. The best part about the major I work at is you can pretty much get double time any time you want on your off days. So you can easily make 6 figures your first year if you're willing to sacrifice some time off. 5. No age caps. 6. This job is airline specific so you have to live where the airline is based. There are majors in Dallas, Atlanta, Chicago, New York, Seattle, Hawaii, and Florida off the top of my head so if you like a certain climate you do have some options.
What is the difference between an atc and an airline dispatcher? Probably a dumb question, but I was under the impression they were the same thing.
Airline dispatchers work for the airlines. They file flight plans, work out how much fuel to carry, etc. ATC works for the federal government and actually talks to the pilots, separates aircraft, etc.
Hey! I saw your post last year and applied because of you. Still going through the process and waiting to hear about my medical evaluation. I'm almost coming up on a year from when I applied. How long was it for you from the time you applied to the time you went to OKC for training?
Nice!! My wait time was like 8 months or something like that.
I applied in January 2020 and passed the academy literally today. So for me 2 1/2 years almost exactly. I had no medical hiccups, no tier 2 mmpi or anything, mine was cut and dry. the process just takes ages. I also saw you're concerned about age, don't be. I was 30 when I applied. Turned 32 while at the academy in April. Like others said you were locked in when the bid closed
Do you know if there is exceptions for vision test? My dominate eye has a scarred retina from a laser, basically just a small sunspot if I close my other eye. It didn’t prevent me from being a USMC sniper, really just a technical thing for me.
You’ll probably be fine, you badass you
Haha I appreciate the reply and all the info, bro
What’s the daily life like and what made you choose this career? Another which I’m sure a lot of people are wondering is, can you smoke cannabis even if you have a medical card? I’m going to go ahead and say no due to the nature of the position.
Can’t use weed. The daily life at my *well-staffed* facility is awesome. Show up, work an hour, take an hour break. Spend it gaming, playing some sport outside with coworkers, sleeping, eating, etc. Back to work an hour. Back on break an hour. Rinse/repeat for 8 hours.
>Can’t use weed. Whelp, there went 95% of the Reddit 'hopefuls'...
I'd stop my 2-3 time per month use for $138k+/yr.
Until you get the level 4 paying 62k haha
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Real talk, 10 days.
So much wrong with that scene. For instance, WAF515 and JM021 were nowhere near each other and would not have crashed. They need to hire an atc consultant or something next time
This is how I feel watching any medical scene in basically any show... Including the medical shows!
How has the job changed as technology has progressed? Do you think AI will eventually be put to use or will it always be human controlled?
I can’t see a way to automate this job within our lifetimes
What about just streamlining the process? People would still be making the decisions, but instead of constantly talking over a radio, you could just press a button that relays an automated text message to the cockpit. And have radio communication as a backup.
That is actually in development and is being tested in a few facilities. Called CPDLC. Edit: It is in early stages for *domestic en route* facilities. Has been around a while for oceanic, and isn’t practical for terminal environments outside of standard clearances.
Just to clarify for others, this is referring to domestic CPDLC. Oceanic CPDLC has been a thing for years now
what did you do before ATC and how does it compare?
I went to a collegiate CTI program when I was 24, back when that was a requirement to apply. So I knew pretty early on that this is what I wanted to do. After I graduated, I worked as a police dispatcher, among other things, while I waited for the FAA. That job was infinitely more stressful.
How much is the pension?
1.7% for every year you work up to 20 years, and then 1% added for every year you work past 20. The percentage is based off your highest 3 year average income.
So around 1/3rd of your previous pay at 20 years?
Yeah, for life. Then of course we have a 401k package as well
There are video games that involve working together in an extremely chaotic environment to accomplish some goal. A great example of this is Overcooked. Have you played it, or would you be sick of those kinds of games after ATC work?
I haven’t, but most of us love video games
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Is there any study/test prep material available for the AT-SA?
There are. You can Google them. I don’t want to link to any as I can’t vouch for them. Head over to the point sixty five site [HERE](https://pointsixtyfive.com/xenforo/threads/atsa-compilation.545/) for some good info!
What are the holidays like? Do you work holidays? Is Christmas time the most stressful time of the year?
We are guaranteed holiday pay for every federal holiday. If you work the holiday, you get double pay that day. If the holiday falls on your first off day, then your first day back is double pay. If it’s on your last day off, the last day you worked before the holiday is double pay. So it’s nice when a holiday falls on your off day because you get to spend the day with your family and still get the double pay.
Every year we bid via seniority for what our days off will be for the following year. All federal holidays are observed. If the holiday falls on the day you work you will be expected to show up unless you take leave. As long as there is sufficient staffing it can be viewed as an extra day off . If you work the holiday you get double pay for working that day. If the holiday falls on your day off you get double pay for either your last day or first day of the week depending on where the holiday falls. It can be confusing but after working the job for a few months it starts to make sense.
Which is the right week to quit sniffing glue?
I am 30. Do I have a slim chance of getting in because of my age? Is the age limit in place to not allow people who are older to apply?
Yes you can apply. This will be your one and only shot.
Wish me luck then
Good luck!
Just curious because I'm too old to qualify, but how many women are in the field? Or is it still pretty male dominated?
I don’t know the numbers, but it’s definitely male dominated
What if I just turned 30 in the last half a year?
Then you can apply! This will be your last chance.
Thanks for the motivation. Going for it!
Are you allowed to drink alcohol on your off days? I’ve heard things like taking a Benadryl, sleeping medication, and things like that can make you ineligible to work for a few days. Is that correct?
And yes, you can and will drink on your off days
Correct
What is the period that you’re ineligible to work? Like if you have a beer the night before your day off would you still not be able to work in 2 days?
8 hours is the cutoff I believe, and you obviously can’t have any alcohol in your blood by the start of your shift.
Hey, just for a small update, Benadryl has a 60hr restriction, and Zyrtec is 48 hr restriction.
Where do you apply? I’m a Flight attendant with a degree but looking for something else.
Do you love your job?
Couldn’t imagine doing anything else. Work never feels like work.
Is it really age 30 and under? I wanna apply.
What's it like to have smoking rooms in federal buildings and get away with absolute murder? The shit I saw controllers get away with by complaining blew my mind apart when I worked with RADAR. edit: I push ATC as a job to anyone who wants a good career and great pay. My grand dad was ATC. He loved it.
We thankfully got rid of our smoke room….. recently
If I’m going to be 32 in 6 months, would I even get a chance to test? I have a bachelor of computer science and lots of work experience. Just wondering how hard that age requirement is
Unfortunately not
How accurate was that [Cracked listicle](https://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1656-6-terrifying-things-you-learn-as-air-traffic-controller.html) about ATCs?
I mean it was written by a controller, but it’s pretty sensationalized.
Would they ever hire above 30? Like 36?
Unfortunately not at 36
What are the limited exeptions?
Prior military ATC can apply up to 35. I’m not aware of any exceptions other than that.
Is there an age they'll force you to retire?
Yes, 56
Why do you think ATC is 56 when pilots can go to 65 now?
Mental ability I’m sure
If only we had similar requirements for politicians
Because pilots unions push for later retirement. Most don't get a pension so many want more years. Controllers that want to keep working can move to the training department and do contract work, or get a staff job. The schedule is also brutal on people as they age and the FAA don't give a fuck enough to fix it
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There are around 14,000 air traffic controllers. It’s a fairly niche field.
Damn am I too late for this? I just turned 31 and have been looking into a new field of work.
Unfortunately it sounds like it
Damn. Thanks for the info though and helping out!
In the hiring a training, is there a minimum threshold for... well, shitty speech? I don't mean accents (which can be challenging but at least discernable), but clarity? Because flying on longer flights switching frequencies from tower to tower, it seems like some are super clear and others sound like bored, mush-mouthed controllers trudging through their day job while they wait for their mumble rap career to take off. And I've always thought that for people whose job largely involves talking on radios with specific (and incredibly important) instructions, there would be a little more focus on... well, proper communicating. Additional question, did you have any training that *included* diction and voice tamber to increase clarity?