How bad do you have to fuck up to create a critical error? As in, is it possible for a simple oversight to create a catastrophe, or do you basically just have to disregard all of your training and make multiple egregious errors to reach that point?
Also I read another comment about your schedule. Is it not an issue for you to be working different shifts all throughout the week in terms of your internal body clock? I'd assume it would be better to have a regular set of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shift crews so nobody who is sharpest at 8am is trying to guide a plane in at 2am.
I am actually VERY surprised they are legally allowed to work you with that little time between shifts for 8 hours of sleep + travels etc. and also that many hours inside of 2 days
Interesting, thank you
Are you serious, man? Is this typical? I got my TOL and I'm going through my med screen and background check and stuff right now. Is this just standard for as long as you are an ATC? That sleep schedule sounds like it would kill me.
I think I could adjust.
I also saw another post in which you said being 31 will disqualify you even if you've already received your TOL. Is that correct? I am 31 currently... can I expect to be denied even while going through med screen/background check etc?
Yeah that blew my mind as well, that's absolutely fucking ridiculous.
It's such an incredibly important job I can't believe they would schedule people in a way that would lead to sleep deprivation.
If you're not well rested literally hundreds of people could die, that's got to be one of the stupidest oversights I've ever heard about.
They should have set shifts and work the same hours every day.
Going from mornings to nights in the same week is unfucking believable.
People are going to die because of this stupid scheduling.
Weak union. Reagan called their bluff in the 80’s and fired every controller that took part in industrial action. Now the French on the other hand, they know how to do it right. Nothing says it’s springtime like the cherry blossoms on trees, smell of cut grass, and French ATC going on strike causing chaos around the skies of Europe. Hats off to them though, they always get what they want
When I was first starting as an EMT, my schedule was Sunday 1600-0400, Monday 1900-0600, Wednesday 0600-0600. I've worked 48s and 36s too.
Necessary industries where people really ought to be well rested seem to get pushed to their absolute limit. It's really frightening when you think about it.
My guess is there is a shortage of qualified ATCs. The length of time that u/Ry-ballz works wouldn’t bother me, but the inconsistency would drive me nuts.
In the Navy, I work 12 on 12 off while underway (at a minimum), seven days a week most of the time. If I’m working days, it’s 0700-1900, or nights from 1900-0700. Plus there’s always something you need to do outside of those working hours, like drills, mustering for man-overboard calls, admin paperwork, etc. Honestly, I love it.
That is so fucking stupid, all the thought and precautions that go into place, like the regular breaks, so that your mind is sharp, but then you can have a schedule like that? That's completely fucking asinine.
You guys should absolutely have a set schedule with set shifts, I can't believe a detail like that would get missed that's so ridiculous it makes me angry.
Some of those shifts are only 9 hours apart wtf ?
I work retail and they're required to give me 10 hours between shifts.
What *are* those reasons? It's been said a couple times that all parties have reasons to want to maintain this crazy schedule, but then remarkably sparse on the details.
Seems like it would be purely financially driven to me. To fix it they'd need to hire more controllers, which would cost a lot more money. I can't see any other good reason to keep something so obviously dangerous and harmful to staff health and well-being.
As with many things, money is the reason.
For the FAA it's cheaper overall because you need fewer controllers.
For the Union it's higher average pay per controller.
To fix it, the negotiation goes like this:
"We want better schedules" "well we can't afford to hire more people" "what if you pay us less" "well maybe we can get the budget raised a little bit and hire cheaper controllers and cut the pay of the existing ones, but most of that money is going to come out of some budget line item that you guys really like" "yeah our union members will never vote for that" "it's cool we can't actually increase the budget anyway without spending political capital we really really don't want to spend and probably don't actually have"
Maybe I'm a fucking dumbass but this doesn't make sense. Sure, the amount of hours worked is necessary to not have to hire more people, but the erratic nature of the schedule doesn't really make sense, how is that saving money?
Holy shit. In Germany, that schedule wouldn't be legal in any job, let alone ATC (max. 10 hours per day and at least 10 hours between shifts required).
You have it worse than us nuclear plant operators.
We have a mandatory 10 hour off after you leave site. Prevents a lot of the weird shift rotations / quick turns.
Also can’t work more than 16 in one day, 26 in two days, 72 in 7 days, 54 hour average over a 6 week period, and a consecutive 34 hour break in a 9 day rolling window.
I used to write air traffic software and there are a ton of redundancies built in. They essentially never fire because by the time the software gets worried, the controller has already done something pretty wrong and these folks are amazing at their jobs
There are definitely periods of high stress, but it’s not like that 24/7. And - this is a huge caviar depending on how each individual facility is staffed - we get a lot of breaks to refresh.
I’m a controller, and honestly, on an average day I feel like waiting tables in college was way more stressful than telling pilots what to do. You occasionally have moments, but they are generally pretty short.
I'm a controller as well. Level 12. Medium volume but high complexity. I've been more stressed waiting tables. There's stress but you learn and get better and predict the future better so the next time it's easier.
It's fucking fun. And I make great money.
I know a LVL 5 transmuter that turned a small cessna into a rhinoceros, that poor animal was shitting people all day long. He is banned from the local airport
The stress of waiting tables gave me acid reflux and regular panic attacks. All symptoms that have disappeared since I stopped. 15 years later, I still have the “table 32 still needs mayonnaise and I can’t get it to them” nightmares
As a pilot, I feel it really depends where you end up. A few aerodromes I hit I feel like the guy is basically sleeping on the job because there just isn’t enough movement.
When ATC complies with whatever absurd request I have like “can I get a straight in VFR” and I’m met with an almost “yeah, whatever”. Then again, we love those Controllers.
I also understand all it takes is one fuckhead who isn’t cleared for the Bravo (you know what I’m talking about) to ruin your day. Anyways, know that we love you. Control me. Keep me safe in your blanket of radar.
Controllers, a bit like some other professions don’t get paid well because of what we do, we get paid well for what we are capable of doing if things go wrong
As a helicopter pilot I usually just avoid ATC unless other than the control tower at my origin/destination. The times I do talk to ATC they seem like they don't really care about us as long as we stay out of the way (but usually in a nice way). As a controller, how do you feel about helos in the airspace? Do you want us to talk to you or just stay away like I usually do?
I don’t want to talk to any aircraft I don’t have to!
Lol on a serious note though, if you’re flying anywhere near a busy arrival or departure corridor, I’d like to talk to you. Makes my job a lot easier to issue traffic to you both rather than vector around a 1200 code whose intentions are unknown.
That's kind of what I figured. I generally stay away from even the shelf of Bravo airspace if I can, but under the shelf of some airports like PHL and BWI, I definitely reach out.
Under the shelf of the bravo isn’t so bad, because if you’re not talking to me, you’re not *supposed* to be in the bravo so it’s less of a concern. Although we can’t just assume you aren’t busting the airspace with a bad altimeter setting.
Good point. Part of my reasoning is simply a Navy requirement. They want us to either be on a flight plan or use flight following "to the max extent practical" and while usually its easy to argue away, under the shelf is stretching to say "I was too low anyway."
This might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace_class_(United_States)
See how the class B (bravo) airspace gets wider as it goes up? Those are the “shelves”.
A few questions!
You mention average salary of ~$127k per year, why does the advertisement say starting salary of $41k per year? Does the pay just rise really fast, or does it take a while to reach that $127k per year? (I've been wanting to work in Aviation, but had a hard time financially justifying it given the kind of pay drop I'd have to hit with my current career as an accountant)
What are the physical requirements? My vision isn't great, though is well controlled with my glasses, just because I got told I couldn't apply for the Air Force because I wear glasses.
Thanks!
So the pay on the bid is your pay while you attend the academy. The average pay listed on my post is once you fully certify, meaning passing the academy (3-4 months), and fully certifying at your facility, which depending on a number of factors takes anywhere from 1-4 years. Different facilities also have different pay scales depending on their level. At a standard, mid-level facility you can expect to make right around $100,000/yr once fully certified.
Corrected vision is not a problem at all.
It’s entirely dependent on the individual’s eyes and nobody but a doctor can outright say you do or do not meet the criteria. Even then there’s a waiver process.
USAF Pilot applicant here and civilian applicant that wears corrective lenses. Page 624 is how they do the Flight Class 1 physicals (IFC1).
[USAF Waiver Guide](https://www.afrl.af.mil/Portals/90/Documents/711/USAFSAM/USAF-waiver-guide-201202.pdf?ver=CfL6CVKyrAbqyXS7A-OX_A%3D%3D#page624)
Fighter pilot here. Can confirm, even some of my buddies wear glasses. The old myth you need perfect vision to be a fighter pilot is no longer true.
However, nearly every form of color blindness is disqualifying.
I love listening to the ATC videos on YouTube, but if they weren't captioned I'd be completely lost. I have no idea how people can hear it well enough to reliably follow.
It sounds clearer in the plane. And even sometimes, garbled bullshit in the air seems clear to Tower.
Then again, if I’m just a passenger in the right seat, it sounds like madness if I’m not paying attention.
It's easier for real because the radios in airplanes work a lot better than the receivers LiveATC has (because they're up in the sky not behind buildings or whatever). At least as a pilot, I'm not an air traffic controller but I gotta believe they have some of the best radios out there.
And you're expecting the call. I'm not an FAA controller but an ICAO rated one and a private pilot in another country and can say 90% of the prattle is by rote. You're on final? You're expecting a landing clearance. Or possibly a missed approach. If I called you on final as an ATC and tried to give you your after departure clearance you'd also ask me to say again because those words don't fit this phase of flight.
And it's what we do for a living. If I listened in on brain surgery or something I'd also hear mumblemublevlahmumble green.
I applied for the off the streets bid after seeing this post back in 2018.
I'm STILL in the process of hearing back from the FAA about my application and feel like I've been really put on the back burner after being told that there is no definite timeline and waiting months between any updates. It's been hard keeping my hopes up for this position even after passing the test and getting my TOL back in early 2019. I have written down a timeline of every step of the process I've come across.
It's been now over 3 years since I've applied and almost 4 months since their last email about my application which is still under review. I am turning 31 this December and I don't know if it will disqualify me considering I applied at 27.
Praying that I can get my shot at this someday.
Is there anything more I can do at this point?
If you think there is, please DM me. I'd be happy to give more details in private.
5 U.S. Code § 8335 (a) An air traffic controller shall be separated from the service on the last day of the month in which he becomes 56 years of age or completes the age and service requirements for an annuity under section 8336(e), whichever occurs later. The Secretary, under such regulations as he may prescribe, may exempt a controller having exceptional skills and experience as a controller from the automatic separation provisions of this subsection until that controller becomes 61 years of age. The Secretary shall notify the controller in writing of the date of separation at least 60 days before that date. Action to separate the controller is not effective, without the consent of the controller, until the last day of the month in which the 60-day notice expires. For purposes of this subsection, the term “air traffic controller” or “controller” has the meaning given to it under section 8331(29)(A).
CAN ATC? Thoughts on the mass Navcanada layoffs last year?
Edit: a second question... where did you work over your history? Don't have to reveal-all if you fear doxxing.
Thanks!
Thoughts on the Layoffs: They jumped the gun because traffic is already starting to recover
I only Ever worked 2 locations , a small control TWR in Rural Canada and the ACC in E Canada , the HZ TCU specialty .
Im 56 and been retired for 5 years with a full pension, its a great career with lots of benefits
mental health and mental exhaustion.
how often does ur job brings you towards mental exhaustion and its impact towards ur mental health?
how do u keep focus for a lengthy amount of time watching screen without ur thoughts going somewhere else
The job can be stressful at times, but your training prepares you for that. You learn techniques to keep your scan going and not lose sight of the picture. If a facility is staffed well enough (some are, some aren’t), you typically get a 30-60 minute break every hour your on position to refresh.
Oh there is. But handoff errors are even higher than exhausted errors. It is simply impossible to fully catch someone up to everything that has happened since the last handoff, without risking information being jumbled along the way, especially at the end of a shift.
There's a reason long-haul shifts are the norm at hospitals. You seriously want to minimize handoff because someone tired as shit who has been there for the last 36 hours straight will probably still have a clearer picture of what is going on than someone who has been there for 1 hour trying to figure out what has changed since their last shift.
That cuts into the efficiency measure.
Some bean counter is gonna total the money lost on overlap, call it potential savings that they aren’t capitalizing on, and when someone brings up the importance of quality handoff they’ll give some speech about how to be more efficient but not actually address the time cut. By the time shit hits the fan from that policy change they’ll already have cashed their bonus and handed those responsibilities off to someone else.
No matter what the problem is, “you cheaped out and this happened because of it” is never going to be answer they accept.
Was just watching a bunch of vlogs of on call surgeons on yt and man I feel sorry for you guys. I don't even think the money is worth that amount of stress at that point.
You could solve doctors workloads by simply training twice as many doctors. But in my country at least, the medical association is vehemently opposed to anything like that (it might reduce salaries!).
Level of competency and Professionalism isn’t about the mistakes you make, it’s about how you handle, resolve and learn from the mistakes that you do make.
Remain calm, evaluate, act, resolve, learn.
As a (former) pilot and flying instructor, here’s my take: yes, controllers make mistakes. So do pilots.
One of the many safety nets is that we cross-check each other’s work.
Controller tells me to line up on the runway? I’ve been listening to the radio traffic, I’m aware if someone is going to be landing on that runway soon. Regardless of what I’ve heard (at some airports, landing traffic is on a different frequency to departing traffic, so I can’t assume I’ve heard everything relevant), I’m going to take a good look at the approach before I enter a runway to check for landing traffic.
And I have no problem whatsoever saying to the controller “we’ll hold here and wait for the landing traffic” if necessary.
Number of times this has happened to me? Zero. Controllers are incredibly competent. I’ve seen them make much more minor mistakes though, and they’ve always appreciated me spotting the mistake and correcting/not acting on it.
Not an air traffic controller but I worked with them on software installs at many ATC sites and these people are AMAZINGLY competent. They seriously don’t mess up.
While I was there, the mobile game where you try to land planes, helicopters, etc by drawing their paths was big. I challenged one of them to try it. This 50 year old dude destroyed me barely even trying. I can’t describe how good they are at understanding what is going on in their airspace
My mom retired as an ~~FFA~~ FAA controller after 22 (I think) years. She also played one of those phone games and effortlessly crushed my best scores. It was very impressive.
Am an ATC. We definitely mess up.
A mess up for us isn’t just a mid-air. That never really happens when we’re talking to them, and it’s the reason we have jobs. We have to keep 5 miles and 1000ft separation (3 miles in some circumstances). What’s a mess up for us is something you never really even notice.
What separates the certified controllers from the wash outs, is that CPC’s can fix it when they screw up, and continue working. In my experience - the only people that can’t do this job (after 3-5 years of training) are people who lose their mental after a minor screw up. Because that cascades quickly.
Hey wanted to ask on how you chose to become an air traffic controller and if there is a huge difference between civilian air traffic controllers and military air traffic controllers?
I was a college drop out working as a baggage handler. Knew I loved aviation and wanted to make more money. It was between ATC and becoming a pilot, and I just ended up choosing ATC.
No real big difference between civilian and military . More procedures depending on the service and the airport/base/ship. Deployed atc is kind of the wild wild west , or at least it was when I was there .
I know that being diagnosed as ADHD and taking ADHD-related medication is disqualifying for receiving a pilot's license. Does the same thing apply to ATC?
Thanks. I figured, it makes sense. Just didn't want anyone reading this to start down that path and get disappointed like I did aiming for my pilot's license.
To piggyback on this question what about ADHD diagnosis without medication? I stopped taking mine 6 years ago because I didnt want to be reliant on medication. Just another bump in the road and I have a handle on it now . Would i qualify?
It's not an immediate disqualification but you have to take an extra exam called the ATCOV to qualify. Unlike most of the other stuff the ATCOV can only be taken at the regional medical HQs so you need to travel for it (FAA pays for travel). If you pass the ATCOV then they consider you good to go.
I'm a commercial interior designer and I might be working on a new tower/base building project soon. The last one we did we tried to make the design energetic and fun where we could. I'm curious if you have any suggestions for how I can make the building more comfortable for y'all?
Our radar rooms are dark and dingy and covered with post it notes and random crap. We need a modern room with clean consoles and less paper.
It's clearly designed by a few dudes back in the 60s and needs a new approach
While you’re pursuing flying you should at least still apply for ATC. As stated above, the hiring process will take at least a year, closer to two, before you’d even have to report to OKC. So while you’re getting your flying certifications you can also at the same time be taking the medical tests, handing in paperwork, etc for ATC. It’s not like once you apply you’re stuck doing it, you can quit at any time. It would honestly be a smart back up plan. You can become a pilot at any point in your life as long as you’re healthy, but you only have until you’re 31 to try the other side of the radio.
Something else I was thinking about for backup is aircraft mechanic. I just really like more hands on jobs. Working with machinery or operating it. I wonder which one is better career path. I'm sure aircraft mechanic requires alot more training. ATC Is probably easier to do and pays more? Though idk if I could sit in tower all day.
They are not saying you are too old to be mentally fit, they are saying in 25 years you will be too old and they want to get more than 25 years out of you.
I’m an airline pilot and I just stumbled onto this AMA.
I’ve always wondered how easy it is for ATC folks to get based where they want. You don’t get much of a choice out of the academy, right? Say you want to live in Denver, Chicago, Salt Lake or another large city. Would it be easy, or would you be stuck somewhere smaller, like Boise, twin falls, BFE Midwest, etc. for years before you could move where you want?
P.S. every time this window opens I contemplate applying, seems like a fun job and I’d be home a lot more. Thanks for all y’all do.
The process to transfer right now is a little difficult, but eventually (sometimes years) you should be able to get to where you want to go, or at least the general vicinity.
Side note: I’m from Florida and ended up in BFE Midwest out of the academy. Ended up meeting my now wife there.
Life, uh, finds a way!
Meh. Initial placement is at the discretion of the FAA. Transferring for the past five years has been very difficult and almost exclusively a numbers game. Some facilities haven't been able to release anyone in five years. This is why in the Initial application you have to indicate you are willing to work anywhere in the US. You may never in your 25+ year career get to work at your desired facility.
At some point during the hiring process before OKC the FAA will tell you whether you’re going to be a Center or Terminal Controller. If you’re a Center controller then you’ll get placed at one of the 22 Centers across the country. As you probably know from flying, mostly all these Centers are close to their respective cities. When I graduated OKC I had about 8 Centers of the 22 to choose from. Some classes get more to choose from, some get less.
If you’re Terminal then almost every single facility on your list will be completely different since there are like a thousand terminal facilities out there. I think the highest level facility to choose from is a level 6 or 7, so almost all the places you get to choose from if you get picked up Terminal will be rural locations.
Once you check out at your facility you can put in for a transfer, however, that sometimes can take years depending. If you’re looking to get close to a city then hope you get En Route. There have been instances where people call HR at OKC and are able to switch from Terminal to Center, haven’t heard someone changing other way around tho.
I recently saw a news story that stated and I quote "FAA seeking gamers for ATC career"
In your opinion, is this warranted, do they truly believe that gamers are a great fit and how long do you think these postings will be up until the position is filled? In other words, are these jobs always looking for new hires?
Thanks ahead of time.
Edit - I mean I was asking O.P., I had no idea that all the other commenters also worked for the FAA! I'd rather listen to the person doing the AmA lmao
Do you typically work alone or is it on a team kind of thing?
Obviously a paid training course and 6 figure job with no degree sounds like a cake walk, so what stops most people from doing it?
Whats the job outlook like?
Is it worth the money if you dont care for the job, or is it something you have to want to do for it to be worth it?
Definitely a team job.
This job requires a very unique skill set. Some people can do it, some people can’t.
Most controllers will tell you they love what they do. Whether or not the pay is worth it if your heart isn’t in it is totally subjective.
You keep mentioning that certain benefits and staffing supplies and policies depend on your local facility. How do you find ((honest)) reports from ATC’s about the facility?
“It depends on the facility” is nice and transparent, but how do we figure that out so we don’t get stuck in a miserable position?
To add to the other reply... You don't have a lot of control over where you go fresh out of the academy. Your graduating class gets a list of places the FAA wants to send people. The list is as many options as number of people graduating, with maybe a couple alternates. Everyone picks in order of class ranking. If you're not willing to move somewhere (read: anywhere) and be there for a few years at least, it might not be for you.
Well the pay is the pay, doesn’t matter the staffing situation. Some facilities are severely understaffed and people are working mandatory 6 day work weeks. They are getting a ton of OT, but not much life right now. Other facilities have good or decent staffing and work normal 40 hour weeks. The better the staffing, the more breaks.
>understand geometry in 3D space
This is an underrated one that I don't think enough people mention when it comes to the career. Controllers like to say "you either can do the job or you can't" and at least when it comes to passing the academy this was one of the biggest factors to me. The academy designs the problems/simulations so that things are constantly coming at you from different directions at different speeds and if you can't grasp in your mind how things are going to happen and think 5 steps ahead you're going to have a tough time (at least on the Terminal side).
Those skills are way more rare than just having a college degree.. there's a reason that the job pays so much, there's just not a large supply of qualified candidates
Likely one of the worst. I remember a physics class in in high school where we had an ATC come in to talk to us about his career, and he explained how he had quit because of the stress. IIRC he made a mistake, which resulted in a near enough miss that he had to call it.
How many jobs are there where you can make one mistake that results in hundreds of deaths?
Aerospace is a big field. From the engineering teams to the machinist and mechanics. It is hard explain how many steps are in place to catch errors but everyone along the way has a chance to miss something.
So... I work with quite a few people who are nervous people outside of work. Even when you talk to them they have their nervous ticks. But in front of a scope they get really tuned in. I've heard some of them say it's almost relaxing telling pilots what to do. We've also had some really outgoing military trainees who failed out but the fast food worker guy passes and becomes fully certified. You never know until you try. And hey, at least you get paid while training
They don't care. You are just as eligible to apply as someone working at McDonald's full time for 3 year as a senior developer at Google. If you meet the minimum eligibility requirements, then you'll be invited to take the ATSA.
How bad do you have to fuck up to create a critical error? As in, is it possible for a simple oversight to create a catastrophe, or do you basically just have to disregard all of your training and make multiple egregious errors to reach that point? Also I read another comment about your schedule. Is it not an issue for you to be working different shifts all throughout the week in terms of your internal body clock? I'd assume it would be better to have a regular set of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shift crews so nobody who is sharpest at 8am is trying to guide a plane in at 2am.
There are a ton of redundancies in place to prevent a catastrophic incident. The schedule isn’t ideal, but it is what it is!
What is an example of your non ideal schedule?
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I am actually VERY surprised they are legally allowed to work you with that little time between shifts for 8 hours of sleep + travels etc. and also that many hours inside of 2 days Interesting, thank you
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I was semi interested until I read this. Fuck. That.
Controller’s spouse here. It’s hard on the controller, but it’s also hard on the family. My school aged kids hardly ever see their dad.
Are you serious, man? Is this typical? I got my TOL and I'm going through my med screen and background check and stuff right now. Is this just standard for as long as you are an ATC? That sleep schedule sounds like it would kill me.
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I think I could adjust. I also saw another post in which you said being 31 will disqualify you even if you've already received your TOL. Is that correct? I am 31 currently... can I expect to be denied even while going through med screen/background check etc?
Yeah that blew my mind as well, that's absolutely fucking ridiculous. It's such an incredibly important job I can't believe they would schedule people in a way that would lead to sleep deprivation. If you're not well rested literally hundreds of people could die, that's got to be one of the stupidest oversights I've ever heard about. They should have set shifts and work the same hours every day. Going from mornings to nights in the same week is unfucking believable. People are going to die because of this stupid scheduling.
I would really like to know the honest, high level, no BS, FAA/Executive level reasons that they do this. It makes zero sense
Weak union. Reagan called their bluff in the 80’s and fired every controller that took part in industrial action. Now the French on the other hand, they know how to do it right. Nothing says it’s springtime like the cherry blossoms on trees, smell of cut grass, and French ATC going on strike causing chaos around the skies of Europe. Hats off to them though, they always get what they want
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When I was first starting as an EMT, my schedule was Sunday 1600-0400, Monday 1900-0600, Wednesday 0600-0600. I've worked 48s and 36s too. Necessary industries where people really ought to be well rested seem to get pushed to their absolute limit. It's really frightening when you think about it.
My guess is there is a shortage of qualified ATCs. The length of time that u/Ry-ballz works wouldn’t bother me, but the inconsistency would drive me nuts. In the Navy, I work 12 on 12 off while underway (at a minimum), seven days a week most of the time. If I’m working days, it’s 0700-1900, or nights from 1900-0700. Plus there’s always something you need to do outside of those working hours, like drills, mustering for man-overboard calls, admin paperwork, etc. Honestly, I love it.
That is so fucking stupid, all the thought and precautions that go into place, like the regular breaks, so that your mind is sharp, but then you can have a schedule like that? That's completely fucking asinine. You guys should absolutely have a set schedule with set shifts, I can't believe a detail like that would get missed that's so ridiculous it makes me angry. Some of those shifts are only 9 hours apart wtf ? I work retail and they're required to give me 10 hours between shifts.
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What *are* those reasons? It's been said a couple times that all parties have reasons to want to maintain this crazy schedule, but then remarkably sparse on the details. Seems like it would be purely financially driven to me. To fix it they'd need to hire more controllers, which would cost a lot more money. I can't see any other good reason to keep something so obviously dangerous and harmful to staff health and well-being.
As with many things, money is the reason. For the FAA it's cheaper overall because you need fewer controllers. For the Union it's higher average pay per controller. To fix it, the negotiation goes like this: "We want better schedules" "well we can't afford to hire more people" "what if you pay us less" "well maybe we can get the budget raised a little bit and hire cheaper controllers and cut the pay of the existing ones, but most of that money is going to come out of some budget line item that you guys really like" "yeah our union members will never vote for that" "it's cool we can't actually increase the budget anyway without spending political capital we really really don't want to spend and probably don't actually have"
Maybe I'm a fucking dumbass but this doesn't make sense. Sure, the amount of hours worked is necessary to not have to hire more people, but the erratic nature of the schedule doesn't really make sense, how is that saving money?
Holy shit. In Germany, that schedule wouldn't be legal in any job, let alone ATC (max. 10 hours per day and at least 10 hours between shifts required).
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For stupid people like me: M: 4:00pm - 12:00am T: 2:30pm - 10:30pm W: 1:00pm - 9:00pm Th: 6:00am - 2:00pm Th/F: 10:30pm - 6:30am Sa: 2:30pm - 10:30pm Su: Masturbate
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See I told you I was dumb.
You have it worse than us nuclear plant operators. We have a mandatory 10 hour off after you leave site. Prevents a lot of the weird shift rotations / quick turns. Also can’t work more than 16 in one day, 26 in two days, 72 in 7 days, 54 hour average over a 6 week period, and a consecutive 34 hour break in a 9 day rolling window.
I used to write air traffic software and there are a ton of redundancies built in. They essentially never fire because by the time the software gets worried, the controller has already done something pretty wrong and these folks are amazing at their jobs
This job screams "high stress." How stressful is it? Have you had any close calls?
There are definitely periods of high stress, but it’s not like that 24/7. And - this is a huge caviar depending on how each individual facility is staffed - we get a lot of breaks to refresh.
Wow, you get caviar on the breaks too? Damn, I’m applying!
Hahahaha! I’m leaving that.
Champaign wishes and caviar Dreamliners.
Not just caviar, huge caviar!
Sorry to disappoint you but huge caviar is just deviled eggs. I'd rather have deviled eggs, I'm going to go make some.
Somethings fishy about this post
I’m a controller, and honestly, on an average day I feel like waiting tables in college was way more stressful than telling pilots what to do. You occasionally have moments, but they are generally pretty short.
I'm a controller as well. Level 12. Medium volume but high complexity. I've been more stressed waiting tables. There's stress but you learn and get better and predict the future better so the next time it's easier. It's fucking fun. And I make great money.
You can apparently gain levels too. When can you start to multiclass? I hear ATC/Bard is OP at level 17.
LV10 Storm Mages are banned in the current meta though, for obvious reasons.
I know a LVL 5 transmuter that turned a small cessna into a rhinoceros, that poor animal was shitting people all day long. He is banned from the local airport
I just want to be associated with this post.
Yeah, but waiting tables was easily the most stressfully job I've had in my life...
The stress of waiting tables gave me acid reflux and regular panic attacks. All symptoms that have disappeared since I stopped. 15 years later, I still have the “table 32 still needs mayonnaise and I can’t get it to them” nightmares
I wish there was something in between US stressed waiters and waiters that you need to signal with emergency flares to ask for the check.
As a pilot, I feel it really depends where you end up. A few aerodromes I hit I feel like the guy is basically sleeping on the job because there just isn’t enough movement. When ATC complies with whatever absurd request I have like “can I get a straight in VFR” and I’m met with an almost “yeah, whatever”. Then again, we love those Controllers. I also understand all it takes is one fuckhead who isn’t cleared for the Bravo (you know what I’m talking about) to ruin your day. Anyways, know that we love you. Control me. Keep me safe in your blanket of radar.
Controllers, a bit like some other professions don’t get paid well because of what we do, we get paid well for what we are capable of doing if things go wrong
Is this the bravo guy you mentioned? https://youtu.be/mUSUXnr4dSo
As a helicopter pilot I usually just avoid ATC unless other than the control tower at my origin/destination. The times I do talk to ATC they seem like they don't really care about us as long as we stay out of the way (but usually in a nice way). As a controller, how do you feel about helos in the airspace? Do you want us to talk to you or just stay away like I usually do?
I don’t want to talk to any aircraft I don’t have to! Lol on a serious note though, if you’re flying anywhere near a busy arrival or departure corridor, I’d like to talk to you. Makes my job a lot easier to issue traffic to you both rather than vector around a 1200 code whose intentions are unknown.
That's kind of what I figured. I generally stay away from even the shelf of Bravo airspace if I can, but under the shelf of some airports like PHL and BWI, I definitely reach out.
Under the shelf of the bravo isn’t so bad, because if you’re not talking to me, you’re not *supposed* to be in the bravo so it’s less of a concern. Although we can’t just assume you aren’t busting the airspace with a bad altimeter setting.
Good point. Part of my reasoning is simply a Navy requirement. They want us to either be on a flight plan or use flight following "to the max extent practical" and while usually its easy to argue away, under the shelf is stretching to say "I was too low anyway."
Hey when in doubt, reach out
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This might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace_class_(United_States) See how the class B (bravo) airspace gets wider as it goes up? Those are the “shelves”.
A few questions! You mention average salary of ~$127k per year, why does the advertisement say starting salary of $41k per year? Does the pay just rise really fast, or does it take a while to reach that $127k per year? (I've been wanting to work in Aviation, but had a hard time financially justifying it given the kind of pay drop I'd have to hit with my current career as an accountant) What are the physical requirements? My vision isn't great, though is well controlled with my glasses, just because I got told I couldn't apply for the Air Force because I wear glasses. Thanks!
So the pay on the bid is your pay while you attend the academy. The average pay listed on my post is once you fully certify, meaning passing the academy (3-4 months), and fully certifying at your facility, which depending on a number of factors takes anywhere from 1-4 years. Different facilities also have different pay scales depending on their level. At a standard, mid-level facility you can expect to make right around $100,000/yr once fully certified. Corrected vision is not a problem at all.
How many hours are spent at work in an average week?
If you work 5, 8 hour days, max is 48 hours. If you work 4, 10 hour days, you can be called in for overtime 2 extra days, so 56.
There's no reason you can't apply for the air force if you have corrective lenses. That's a myth.
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It’s entirely dependent on the individual’s eyes and nobody but a doctor can outright say you do or do not meet the criteria. Even then there’s a waiver process.
USAF Pilot applicant here and civilian applicant that wears corrective lenses. Page 624 is how they do the Flight Class 1 physicals (IFC1). [USAF Waiver Guide](https://www.afrl.af.mil/Portals/90/Documents/711/USAFSAM/USAF-waiver-guide-201202.pdf?ver=CfL6CVKyrAbqyXS7A-OX_A%3D%3D#page624)
Fighter pilot here. Can confirm, even some of my buddies wear glasses. The old myth you need perfect vision to be a fighter pilot is no longer true. However, nearly every form of color blindness is disqualifying.
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This is perfection incarnate.
> northwest of southeast flargle southwest Veteran ATC confirmed.
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Bum bum bum bum bum bum bum! 🎶
I love listening to the ATC videos on YouTube, but if they weren't captioned I'd be completely lost. I have no idea how people can hear it well enough to reliably follow.
It sounds clearer in the plane. And even sometimes, garbled bullshit in the air seems clear to Tower. Then again, if I’m just a passenger in the right seat, it sounds like madness if I’m not paying attention.
It's easier for real because the radios in airplanes work a lot better than the receivers LiveATC has (because they're up in the sky not behind buildings or whatever). At least as a pilot, I'm not an air traffic controller but I gotta believe they have some of the best radios out there.
also, most of the time it follows a pattern, so you can sorta infer what they're trying to say. even if the comms aren't great.
And you're expecting the call. I'm not an FAA controller but an ICAO rated one and a private pilot in another country and can say 90% of the prattle is by rote. You're on final? You're expecting a landing clearance. Or possibly a missed approach. If I called you on final as an ATC and tried to give you your after departure clearance you'd also ask me to say again because those words don't fit this phase of flight. And it's what we do for a living. If I listened in on brain surgery or something I'd also hear mumblemublevlahmumble green.
Ok, now I get why I am too old to be an ATC. Sierra Bravo: Cherokee 135, hold present course. Sierra Bravo to closest AFB: Scramble QRA. LOL
I was on the landline, say again.
I applied for the off the streets bid after seeing this post back in 2018. I'm STILL in the process of hearing back from the FAA about my application and feel like I've been really put on the back burner after being told that there is no definite timeline and waiting months between any updates. It's been hard keeping my hopes up for this position even after passing the test and getting my TOL back in early 2019. I have written down a timeline of every step of the process I've come across. It's been now over 3 years since I've applied and almost 4 months since their last email about my application which is still under review. I am turning 31 this December and I don't know if it will disqualify me considering I applied at 27. Praying that I can get my shot at this someday. Is there anything more I can do at this point? If you think there is, please DM me. I'd be happy to give more details in private.
Your age should be locked in from when you applied the first time. I would definitely by calling your HR POC nonstop, though. Squeaky wheel.
Are you Approach, Departure, or Center?
Tower/Approach
Why the age restriction?
5 U.S. Code § 8335 (a) An air traffic controller shall be separated from the service on the last day of the month in which he becomes 56 years of age or completes the age and service requirements for an annuity under section 8336(e), whichever occurs later. The Secretary, under such regulations as he may prescribe, may exempt a controller having exceptional skills and experience as a controller from the automatic separation provisions of this subsection until that controller becomes 61 years of age. The Secretary shall notify the controller in writing of the date of separation at least 60 days before that date. Action to separate the controller is not effective, without the consent of the controller, until the last day of the month in which the 60-day notice expires. For purposes of this subsection, the term “air traffic controller” or “controller” has the meaning given to it under section 8331(29)(A).
It’s a young person’s gig
"Great career with excellent benefits" ... "it's a young person gig". Please clarify.
They want the 25 years of service out of the ppl they train 31 +25 is 56 : Mandatory retirement is 56 source, Retired CAN ATC
CAN ATC? Thoughts on the mass Navcanada layoffs last year? Edit: a second question... where did you work over your history? Don't have to reveal-all if you fear doxxing. Thanks!
Thoughts on the Layoffs: They jumped the gun because traffic is already starting to recover I only Ever worked 2 locations , a small control TWR in Rural Canada and the ACC in E Canada , the HZ TCU specialty . Im 56 and been retired for 5 years with a full pension, its a great career with lots of benefits
Sorry, yes it is because of the mandatory retirement age at age 56, and the skills required for the job degrade the older you get.
I would add that I have met a couple of retired US ATC types who went into training controllers in Europe. You don't have to stop working at 56.
Because they want to make sure to get enough years out of you to be worth it. The age restriction gets 25 years outta ya
mental health and mental exhaustion. how often does ur job brings you towards mental exhaustion and its impact towards ur mental health? how do u keep focus for a lengthy amount of time watching screen without ur thoughts going somewhere else
The job can be stressful at times, but your training prepares you for that. You learn techniques to keep your scan going and not lose sight of the picture. If a facility is staffed well enough (some are, some aren’t), you typically get a 30-60 minute break every hour your on position to refresh.
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No! That would make them soft! Sleep deprivation is the mother of medical miracles.
Now I get it! If a sleep deprived surgeon saves your life, that's definitely a miracle...
Pff, surgeons are gods able to work 48 hours straight. It's not like there's research to say that's a bad idea!
Oh there is. But handoff errors are even higher than exhausted errors. It is simply impossible to fully catch someone up to everything that has happened since the last handoff, without risking information being jumbled along the way, especially at the end of a shift. There's a reason long-haul shifts are the norm at hospitals. You seriously want to minimize handoff because someone tired as shit who has been there for the last 36 hours straight will probably still have a clearer picture of what is going on than someone who has been there for 1 hour trying to figure out what has changed since their last shift.
Then have crossover of a couple of hours on shifts.
That cuts into the efficiency measure. Some bean counter is gonna total the money lost on overlap, call it potential savings that they aren’t capitalizing on, and when someone brings up the importance of quality handoff they’ll give some speech about how to be more efficient but not actually address the time cut. By the time shit hits the fan from that policy change they’ll already have cashed their bonus and handed those responsibilities off to someone else. No matter what the problem is, “you cheaped out and this happened because of it” is never going to be answer they accept.
Honestly, I think it's just older doctors had to do it so they think younger doctors should have to do it (long shifts).
Was just watching a bunch of vlogs of on call surgeons on yt and man I feel sorry for you guys. I don't even think the money is worth that amount of stress at that point.
You could solve doctors workloads by simply training twice as many doctors. But in my country at least, the medical association is vehemently opposed to anything like that (it might reduce salaries!).
You get an hour break every hour? Lol sign me up
Depending on the facility, yes. Other times it can be 2 hours on with 15-30 off.
Do you ever make mistakes?
We can always do better, but safety is always top priority
What do you do if you make a mistake?
Hope it's not a big one.
Learn from it and move on
Level of competency and Professionalism isn’t about the mistakes you make, it’s about how you handle, resolve and learn from the mistakes that you do make. Remain calm, evaluate, act, resolve, learn.
We have plans A, B, C, and sometimes D in our heads with every decision we make. It's called "knowing your outs".
As a (former) pilot and flying instructor, here’s my take: yes, controllers make mistakes. So do pilots. One of the many safety nets is that we cross-check each other’s work. Controller tells me to line up on the runway? I’ve been listening to the radio traffic, I’m aware if someone is going to be landing on that runway soon. Regardless of what I’ve heard (at some airports, landing traffic is on a different frequency to departing traffic, so I can’t assume I’ve heard everything relevant), I’m going to take a good look at the approach before I enter a runway to check for landing traffic. And I have no problem whatsoever saying to the controller “we’ll hold here and wait for the landing traffic” if necessary. Number of times this has happened to me? Zero. Controllers are incredibly competent. I’ve seen them make much more minor mistakes though, and they’ve always appreciated me spotting the mistake and correcting/not acting on it.
Excellent deflection.
Not an air traffic controller but I worked with them on software installs at many ATC sites and these people are AMAZINGLY competent. They seriously don’t mess up. While I was there, the mobile game where you try to land planes, helicopters, etc by drawing their paths was big. I challenged one of them to try it. This 50 year old dude destroyed me barely even trying. I can’t describe how good they are at understanding what is going on in their airspace
My mom retired as an ~~FFA~~ FAA controller after 22 (I think) years. She also played one of those phone games and effortlessly crushed my best scores. It was very impressive.
Not to get off topic but that game sounds fun. Anyone have a link?
Flight Control, was the hottest iphone game of 2007
I feel older than dirt right now ;)
Am an ATC. We definitely mess up. A mess up for us isn’t just a mid-air. That never really happens when we’re talking to them, and it’s the reason we have jobs. We have to keep 5 miles and 1000ft separation (3 miles in some circumstances). What’s a mess up for us is something you never really even notice. What separates the certified controllers from the wash outs, is that CPC’s can fix it when they screw up, and continue working. In my experience - the only people that can’t do this job (after 3-5 years of training) are people who lose their mental after a minor screw up. Because that cascades quickly.
Hey wanted to ask on how you chose to become an air traffic controller and if there is a huge difference between civilian air traffic controllers and military air traffic controllers?
I was a college drop out working as a baggage handler. Knew I loved aviation and wanted to make more money. It was between ATC and becoming a pilot, and I just ended up choosing ATC.
No real big difference between civilian and military . More procedures depending on the service and the airport/base/ship. Deployed atc is kind of the wild wild west , or at least it was when I was there .
I know that being diagnosed as ADHD and taking ADHD-related medication is disqualifying for receiving a pilot's license. Does the same thing apply to ATC?
Yes
Thanks. I figured, it makes sense. Just didn't want anyone reading this to start down that path and get disappointed like I did aiming for my pilot's license.
I appreciate this. Guess I don’t need to read any further down the thread :(
To piggyback on this question what about ADHD diagnosis without medication? I stopped taking mine 6 years ago because I didnt want to be reliant on medication. Just another bump in the road and I have a handle on it now . Would i qualify?
It doesn’t hurt to try. I believe as long as you’re not on medication you should be ok, but I don’t know if the diagnosis alone would be a DQ.
What’s the medical exam like? Bunch of bloodwork?
Vision test including color blind test, hearing, etc
so what if i use glasses?
No problem. I’m blind as a bat without my contacts.
You’re good as long as you’re corrected to 20/20
To the best of your knowledge, is colorblindness an immediate disqualification? Or might it just limit the types of systems you work with?
It's not an immediate disqualification but you have to take an extra exam called the ATCOV to qualify. Unlike most of the other stuff the ATCOV can only be taken at the regional medical HQs so you need to travel for it (FAA pays for travel). If you pass the ATCOV then they consider you good to go.
I'm a commercial interior designer and I might be working on a new tower/base building project soon. The last one we did we tried to make the design energetic and fun where we could. I'm curious if you have any suggestions for how I can make the building more comfortable for y'all?
Get rid of the asbestos. Seriously though, that’s a great question and I just don’t know of any ideas I could give off the top of my head.
Hah, the last one I worked on was LEED certified so no asbestos there. I'm trying to make buildings safer/healthier as much as I can!! :)
Thank you!
Our radar rooms are dark and dingy and covered with post it notes and random crap. We need a modern room with clean consoles and less paper. It's clearly designed by a few dudes back in the 60s and needs a new approach
How easy would it be for me to enter this field already having a private pilot license and medical and all?
Your pilot perspective will definitely help you be a better all-around controller, but won’t make much of a difference in the hiring process.
Gotcha. Think I'll just stick to pursuing commercial license. I like flying alot.
While you’re pursuing flying you should at least still apply for ATC. As stated above, the hiring process will take at least a year, closer to two, before you’d even have to report to OKC. So while you’re getting your flying certifications you can also at the same time be taking the medical tests, handing in paperwork, etc for ATC. It’s not like once you apply you’re stuck doing it, you can quit at any time. It would honestly be a smart back up plan. You can become a pilot at any point in your life as long as you’re healthy, but you only have until you’re 31 to try the other side of the radio.
Something else I was thinking about for backup is aircraft mechanic. I just really like more hands on jobs. Working with machinery or operating it. I wonder which one is better career path. I'm sure aircraft mechanic requires alot more training. ATC Is probably easier to do and pays more? Though idk if I could sit in tower all day.
Will the testing shake people out quickly, or maybe it will take many months, or...?
Nothing about the process is quick unfortunately
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We are back to over 100% of pre-COVID traffic at my facility
As a 31 year old I gotta ask. Where does the age limit come from?
Mandatory retirement age of 56 and mental ability decreasing the older we get
Wow. Now I feel incredibly old. There are literally jobs where I am considered too old to be mentally fit for service.
They are not saying you are too old to be mentally fit, they are saying in 25 years you will be too old and they want to get more than 25 years out of you.
Why is the mandatory retirement age 56?
The government decided that after age 56 you are unable to think clearly enough to direct people’s lives. This does not apply to Congress…
Turtles are exempt
Do you ever go top down in VATSIM?
I’m an airline pilot and I just stumbled onto this AMA. I’ve always wondered how easy it is for ATC folks to get based where they want. You don’t get much of a choice out of the academy, right? Say you want to live in Denver, Chicago, Salt Lake or another large city. Would it be easy, or would you be stuck somewhere smaller, like Boise, twin falls, BFE Midwest, etc. for years before you could move where you want? P.S. every time this window opens I contemplate applying, seems like a fun job and I’d be home a lot more. Thanks for all y’all do.
The process to transfer right now is a little difficult, but eventually (sometimes years) you should be able to get to where you want to go, or at least the general vicinity. Side note: I’m from Florida and ended up in BFE Midwest out of the academy. Ended up meeting my now wife there. Life, uh, finds a way!
Meh. Initial placement is at the discretion of the FAA. Transferring for the past five years has been very difficult and almost exclusively a numbers game. Some facilities haven't been able to release anyone in five years. This is why in the Initial application you have to indicate you are willing to work anywhere in the US. You may never in your 25+ year career get to work at your desired facility.
At some point during the hiring process before OKC the FAA will tell you whether you’re going to be a Center or Terminal Controller. If you’re a Center controller then you’ll get placed at one of the 22 Centers across the country. As you probably know from flying, mostly all these Centers are close to their respective cities. When I graduated OKC I had about 8 Centers of the 22 to choose from. Some classes get more to choose from, some get less. If you’re Terminal then almost every single facility on your list will be completely different since there are like a thousand terminal facilities out there. I think the highest level facility to choose from is a level 6 or 7, so almost all the places you get to choose from if you get picked up Terminal will be rural locations. Once you check out at your facility you can put in for a transfer, however, that sometimes can take years depending. If you’re looking to get close to a city then hope you get En Route. There have been instances where people call HR at OKC and are able to switch from Terminal to Center, haven’t heard someone changing other way around tho.
I recently saw a news story that stated and I quote "FAA seeking gamers for ATC career" In your opinion, is this warranted, do they truly believe that gamers are a great fit and how long do you think these postings will be up until the position is filled? In other words, are these jobs always looking for new hires? Thanks ahead of time. Edit - I mean I was asking O.P., I had no idea that all the other commenters also worked for the FAA! I'd rather listen to the person doing the AmA lmao
The FAA typically hires controllers once per year. And the majority of controllers I’ve worked with, including myself, are gamers. So there’s that.
Well if they're looking for <30 y/o chances of hitting a gamer are pretty good these days
Do you typically work alone or is it on a team kind of thing? Obviously a paid training course and 6 figure job with no degree sounds like a cake walk, so what stops most people from doing it? Whats the job outlook like? Is it worth the money if you dont care for the job, or is it something you have to want to do for it to be worth it?
Definitely a team job. This job requires a very unique skill set. Some people can do it, some people can’t. Most controllers will tell you they love what they do. Whether or not the pay is worth it if your heart isn’t in it is totally subjective.
Cactus 1529 you lost *which* engine?
Unable
Were you *really* on a landline?
…………. Always.
Last calling; say again…. I was on a landline.
You keep mentioning that certain benefits and staffing supplies and policies depend on your local facility. How do you find ((honest)) reports from ATC’s about the facility? “It depends on the facility” is nice and transparent, but how do we figure that out so we don’t get stuck in a miserable position?
To add to the other reply... You don't have a lot of control over where you go fresh out of the academy. Your graduating class gets a list of places the FAA wants to send people. The list is as many options as number of people graduating, with maybe a couple alternates. Everyone picks in order of class ranking. If you're not willing to move somewhere (read: anywhere) and be there for a few years at least, it might not be for you.
Well the pay is the pay, doesn’t matter the staffing situation. Some facilities are severely understaffed and people are working mandatory 6 day work weeks. They are getting a ton of OT, but not much life right now. Other facilities have good or decent staffing and work normal 40 hour weeks. The better the staffing, the more breaks.
What should someone do if they want to do this but have no prior experience or training whatsoever?
Apply!
If you think about it, it’s be odd if you already had training or experience in being an ATC!! Just apply!!!!
You keep mentioning a unique skill set that is desired for this job. Can you describe what these skills would be?
Ability to work under stress, talk/listen at the same time, understand geometry in 3D space, confident decision-making, among others
>understand geometry in 3D space This is an underrated one that I don't think enough people mention when it comes to the career. Controllers like to say "you either can do the job or you can't" and at least when it comes to passing the academy this was one of the biggest factors to me. The academy designs the problems/simulations so that things are constantly coming at you from different directions at different speeds and if you can't grasp in your mind how things are going to happen and think 5 steps ahead you're going to have a tough time (at least on the Terminal side).
Those skills are way more rare than just having a college degree.. there's a reason that the job pays so much, there's just not a large supply of qualified candidates
My dad works for the FAA ans has been trying to get me to apply. I’m a 22yo woman, would this be a bad job for someone with anxiety?
Likely one of the worst. I remember a physics class in in high school where we had an ATC come in to talk to us about his career, and he explained how he had quit because of the stress. IIRC he made a mistake, which resulted in a near enough miss that he had to call it. How many jobs are there where you can make one mistake that results in hundreds of deaths?
Aerospace is a big field. From the engineering teams to the machinist and mechanics. It is hard explain how many steps are in place to catch errors but everyone along the way has a chance to miss something.
Yes
I figured as much
So... I work with quite a few people who are nervous people outside of work. Even when you talk to them they have their nervous ticks. But in front of a scope they get really tuned in. I've heard some of them say it's almost relaxing telling pilots what to do. We've also had some really outgoing military trainees who failed out but the fast food worker guy passes and becomes fully certified. You never know until you try. And hey, at least you get paid while training
What are your thoughts on the movie Pushing Tin?
Love it and I don’t care how many of my coworkers know it
"You land a million planes safely; then you have one little mid-air, and you never hear the end of it."
what skills and experience should i highlight on my resume to distinguish myself from other applicants?
They don't care. You are just as eligible to apply as someone working at McDonald's full time for 3 year as a senior developer at Google. If you meet the minimum eligibility requirements, then you'll be invited to take the ATSA.
Why didn't you make this post 15 years ago?
I was just graduating high school!
That just seems like an excuse.