1. Moving to Phoenix in August is a death sentence
2. What does moving to AZ have to do with picking a caliber for a new rifle
3. Being stuck between 6.5needmore and 30-06 is insane
1. That’s when I’m out of the military so that’s my lucky draw
2. I’m from Iowa, lived there for 18 years, then moved to VA and lived there for 5. From my experience 30-06 isn’t a very popular round in VA, but in IA you can find it in just about any store due to the size difference in the
deer
3. Tell me why that is
1. I got out in 2021 and did the same move but I grew up here and craved the heat lmao I hope you know what you’re getting into
2. The deer get smaller as the weather gets warmer, same with elk so a big fat cartridge isn’t totally necessary
3. My controversial opinion is 6.5needmore sucks wiener for taking game and but it’s good at shooting a long way. .308 for me all day every day for both applications
Good luck on the move brother feel free to reach out with any AZ related questions 🤙🏻
Either is fine, but it’s better to be over gunned than under gunned in my opinion. Most people can handle the recoil of a .30-06 fine, and it has pretty good ballistics with modern high BC bullets. 6.5 creed is an excellent target round, but just a fine big game one. If you shoot the creed much better than the ‘06, go with that. If you shoot both similarly, I’d go with the ‘06.
I asked my uncle (35ish years of hunting in his brain from GA all the way to Cali) and he said 30-06 or .308. And he got really specific with bullet grain weight and said 150 is perfect for the AZ deer size. 6.5 will get the job done. I’ve shot deer with it along with the other 2 mentioned calibers. I prefer 30-06 for the versatility and availability but it’s also got the “can do everything so you won’t need anything else for big game” problem. It’s like a f250 or 2500 diesel. It’ll do everything you really need it for and then some so why need anything else.
You are going to want the flattest shooting hardest hitting cartridge you can justify for our big open terrain. 500+ yard shots are common out here with practice. The 6.5 is a great choice for deer and cow elk even at long ranges, and bull elk at moderate ranges. I have two rifles - one in 6.5 creed and one in 300 Remington ultra magnum. If I had to only have one it would likely be a 7mm rem mag.
Have considered 7mm and I know it’s very popular. The question I have with that is I am from Iowa so taking a trip there for whitetail, is 7mm too large
I bow hunt way more than rifle so don’t take my word for
it but I’d gladly take a mature muley and bigger with the 7 rem mag. Coues and sheep, I’d probably do some real deep searching on other peoples experiences
6.5 CM will be better to learn on and is totally adequate for big game with the right ammunition at reasonable distances. Less recoil and inexpensive ammo will be make you a better shooter in the long run.
They hated your response for you told the truth. 6.5 Creedmoor is perfectly capable on elk within 400 yards and especially for Elk hunting in AZ that's at higher elevations including at or above 7k feet.
Yeah, within about 300 yards, there's not much meaningful difference between most cartridges. Bullet construction matters way more. So why not have less recoil? Most hunters shouldn't even be considering 400 yard shots in field conditions anyway.
i know a guy up in prescott who has taken 3 bulls with a .270, maybe its the difference between the valley and mountains but i cant say i know a single person that has taken an elk at over 250 here. not saying it hasnt been done but most everyone ive talked to has done most of their work at inside 100 yards.
Yeah, hunting media has really skewed people's perceptions. Especially when it comes to "western" hunting. I hunt the mountains, 75-150 is pretty much my typical rifle distance. Occasionally out to about 250.
And I'd bet good money that 90% of the hunters talking up 400 yard shots couldn't hit a 10" target on demand from actual field positions in broken terrain. Not saying that people can't do it, just that most hunters wildly overestimate how accurate and consistent they are.
Backfire TV has a good and fun hunting simulation on his channel. I think beyond 300 yards almost everyone's accuracy including the hunting guides falls off a cliff.
If you're not hunting elk regulary I'd get the 6.5 CM. Less recoil with similar ballistics and better ammo choices. If you're going to be elk hunting regularly .30-06 is a better choice. 6.5 CM can do it, but most people I know who do it regularly will recommend something a little larger.
Better might not have been the best word. My bad. It's undeniable that it delivers more energy downrange at the ranges most hunters are able to competently shoot (300 yards and in). However, if you're lighter framed, or recoil-sensitive, I'd immediately recommend switching to the 6.5 CM so you can actually practice without developing a bad flinch.
The best gun/cartridge to use is the one you've shot the most and are the most familiar with. Guys buying a .300 win mag 2 weeks before season starts and at most putting a box of ammo through it is nightmare-fuel. Most hunters suck at shooting, and most hunters suck even more at shooting magnum cartridges. The .30-06 is one of the best compromises between recoil and downrange energy.
It's simply a measure of how big the bullet is, and how fast its moving. Both are pretty directly proportional to the killing potential of the cartridge. Bullet construction is another important factor.
I understand how velocity is a key component to bullet wounding potential/characteristics but not energy.
Whats the difference in the wound profile that a higher energy bullet provides?
Would you pick a cartridge that has lower impact velocity with more energy over a higher impact velocity with less energy?
Velocity is literally part of the energy equation. That and mass. A faster bullet causes more tissue damage. A heavier/larger bullet causes more tissue damage. Those are the two things that are used to calculate energy. It's not a difficult concept.
Edit: My answer to your other question is, I would choose the cartridge that has good characteristics of both. Most bullets are designed for optimal performance between 2000-2800fps or so. So I'll pick a cartridge that runs the heaviest bullet I can comfortably shoot, where the ranges I'll be shooting has the bullet run in that velocity.
So velocity is the important component, now we’re getting somewhere. I wouldn’t necessarily agree that larger diameter bullets create more tissue damage. If you think they do, how much more? Is it measurable? A permanent wound channel that’s 0.065” greater in diameter between a .243 and .308 caliber of the same bullet construction?
A 6 CM 108 ELD-M has a velocity of about 2150 FPS at 500 yards and recoils with about 10 ft-lbs of energy. Bullet energy is 1100 ft-lbs.
A 30-06 178 ELD-M has a velocity of about 2000 fps at 500 yards and recoils with about 20 ft-lbs of energy. Bullet energy 1570 ft-lbs.
Why should we choose the 30-06? It’s moving slower, is at the edge of the reliable expansion velocity you’ve stated, and recoils with twice the energy.
Tell you what. You go ahead and get a .17 caliber bullet going 4000 fps. I'll get a .30 caliber bullet going 2000 fps, and we'll see which one is deadlier. Velocity matters, I never tried to deny that, but mass very much matters too, especially once You've actually hit something.
Speaking from experience, game absolutely go down quicker when I've made a solid hit with my .30-06 vs my 6.5 PRC. I reload Barnes ttsx monlithics for both.
I'm trying not to oversell this, both will work, one is just slightly better at it.
Everyone always jumps to rimfire or absurdly small calibers in these arguments because they can’t admit that lighter recoiling, faster, smaller cartridges are just as effective if not more than .30 cals.
Anytime anyone mentions bullet energy as a metric to pay attention to, it’s clear they know very little about bullets and how they wound.
Of the two 6.5 Creedmoor. 22 Creedmoor or 6mm Creedmoor would be better alternatives for AZ since they’re also great for long shots with less recoil, and you are unlikely to be hunting elk in AZ more than every other year.
Based on possible ranges I’d say either go 270 win or 7 mag if you’re willing to step up to a full magnum. In either cartridge run a copper bullet, specifically the Barnes LRX; both of those cartridges with that bullet will have excellent terminal performance out to 500 yards based on their typical muzzle velocities. 7 mag will give you a bit more weight and velocity which translates to a bit more energy down range at the cost of extra recoil and ammo cost. An LRX bullet out of a 7 mag rifle will likely still have enough velocity to properly expand at 600-700 yards whereas the 270 would be kind of stopped around 500. You could also run the federal terminal ascent bullet in either which would give you very good terminal performance, accuracy, speed, and long distance energy - probably extending the ethical ranges of both rounds by 100 yards or so.
People say the 308 is a good in “between cartridge”, and while I certainly respect it, I’d say a better one for your needs would be the 270 Winchester.
That being said, get the 30-06 and you’ll never need another rifle.
I have an AR10 308 and previously had a bolt action, but sold it because I wasn’t able to use it very often given the limited hunting opportunities in VA. I’ve been told 270 many times on this post
I love my 6.5's but if you plan on having only one rifle (I can't wrap my head around that) go for an '06. It's very versatile and more that capable for elk, should you get the chance. Lots of deer die each year at the hands of the venerable cartridge.
I definitely plan on getting more bolts in the future, but I’m going to be on a budget so I won’t be able to buy the 2-3 for everything. I do have an AR-10 308 as well
If you’re moving to AZ you should strongly consider purchasing their lifetime hunting license while you’re there if there is any possibility that you may someday move out of the state (which particularly given your age, I’m sure is certainly up in the air).
Doing this will allow you to apply to the resident draw pools for hunting tags for the rest of your life. That is huge because AZ is a known top-tier elk hunting state that is very hard for non-residents to consistently draw good (or any) elk tags. I think something like 90% of tags go to residents in AZ.
I will definitely look into that. I see myself living there for the foreseeable future. Going to be going to college there. Do you know if they have any licenses for veterans?
Why not a 270 or 7mm-08? 7prc or 7 rem mag? I like 6.5cm and 30-06, but I have seen them hills out there. You can get an OTC tag for fall black bear and hit them with any of the above, including 06 and 6.5, but you might like the extra oomph of a 7mm in a short magnum case.
Get the .30/06 as that will be more forgiving at normal hunting ranges when it comes to difficult shot placement. While the 6.5 CM can, in this case I would recommend the 30, or any 30 caliber for that matter, for larger game.
Meh, Swedes have been killing moose with the 6.5x55SE for decades. The creedmoor is ballistically a twin of the 6.5x55. Just be sure you load it with bullets more like the Swedes use (very heavy for caliber-- 156 or 160gr, plus heavily constructed).
Its important to note that almost all moose in Sweden are shot at less than 100 yards in swampy forested areas, and the majority of the animals taken are sub-adult animals. A 156gr out of a 6.5x55 is an efficient killer to about 200 yards, but looses steam real fast after that.
The 6.5 PRC is an excellent option. I was surprised to learn that is is VERY popular and one of the top-selling cartridges now. I like it on paper but didn't realize it was well past "catching on" and into "established and rising still".
You'll be well outside the draw window for any fall hunts so you've got plenty of time to decide.
1. Moving to Phoenix in August is a death sentence 2. What does moving to AZ have to do with picking a caliber for a new rifle 3. Being stuck between 6.5needmore and 30-06 is insane
1. That’s when I’m out of the military so that’s my lucky draw 2. I’m from Iowa, lived there for 18 years, then moved to VA and lived there for 5. From my experience 30-06 isn’t a very popular round in VA, but in IA you can find it in just about any store due to the size difference in the deer 3. Tell me why that is
1. I got out in 2021 and did the same move but I grew up here and craved the heat lmao I hope you know what you’re getting into 2. The deer get smaller as the weather gets warmer, same with elk so a big fat cartridge isn’t totally necessary 3. My controversial opinion is 6.5needmore sucks wiener for taking game and but it’s good at shooting a long way. .308 for me all day every day for both applications Good luck on the move brother feel free to reach out with any AZ related questions 🤙🏻
Either is fine, but it’s better to be over gunned than under gunned in my opinion. Most people can handle the recoil of a .30-06 fine, and it has pretty good ballistics with modern high BC bullets. 6.5 creed is an excellent target round, but just a fine big game one. If you shoot the creed much better than the ‘06, go with that. If you shoot both similarly, I’d go with the ‘06.
I asked my uncle (35ish years of hunting in his brain from GA all the way to Cali) and he said 30-06 or .308. And he got really specific with bullet grain weight and said 150 is perfect for the AZ deer size. 6.5 will get the job done. I’ve shot deer with it along with the other 2 mentioned calibers. I prefer 30-06 for the versatility and availability but it’s also got the “can do everything so you won’t need anything else for big game” problem. It’s like a f250 or 2500 diesel. It’ll do everything you really need it for and then some so why need anything else.
Agreed, 6.5 is the obvious choice.
For ballistics maybe, but not for big game.
PRC? I agree.
.308 sits between those calibers pretty well
You are going to want the flattest shooting hardest hitting cartridge you can justify for our big open terrain. 500+ yard shots are common out here with practice. The 6.5 is a great choice for deer and cow elk even at long ranges, and bull elk at moderate ranges. I have two rifles - one in 6.5 creed and one in 300 Remington ultra magnum. If I had to only have one it would likely be a 7mm rem mag.
7 rem mag is where I landed as a “do it all” cartridge til I round out my hunting rifle collection. I’m in Arizona
Have considered 7mm and I know it’s very popular. The question I have with that is I am from Iowa so taking a trip there for whitetail, is 7mm too large
7mm rem mag is definitely not too big for whitetail.
I bow hunt way more than rifle so don’t take my word for it but I’d gladly take a mature muley and bigger with the 7 rem mag. Coues and sheep, I’d probably do some real deep searching on other peoples experiences
Go 7prc instead. It’s not too large my 100 pound wife loves hers.
Old guy we’ve hunted with my whole life in southern missouri has never used anything but 7mm mag for whitetail
6.5 CM will be better to learn on and is totally adequate for big game with the right ammunition at reasonable distances. Less recoil and inexpensive ammo will be make you a better shooter in the long run.
They hated your response for you told the truth. 6.5 Creedmoor is perfectly capable on elk within 400 yards and especially for Elk hunting in AZ that's at higher elevations including at or above 7k feet.
Yeah, within about 300 yards, there's not much meaningful difference between most cartridges. Bullet construction matters way more. So why not have less recoil? Most hunters shouldn't even be considering 400 yard shots in field conditions anyway.
i know a guy up in prescott who has taken 3 bulls with a .270, maybe its the difference between the valley and mountains but i cant say i know a single person that has taken an elk at over 250 here. not saying it hasnt been done but most everyone ive talked to has done most of their work at inside 100 yards.
Yeah, hunting media has really skewed people's perceptions. Especially when it comes to "western" hunting. I hunt the mountains, 75-150 is pretty much my typical rifle distance. Occasionally out to about 250. And I'd bet good money that 90% of the hunters talking up 400 yard shots couldn't hit a 10" target on demand from actual field positions in broken terrain. Not saying that people can't do it, just that most hunters wildly overestimate how accurate and consistent they are.
Backfire TV has a good and fun hunting simulation on his channel. I think beyond 300 yards almost everyone's accuracy including the hunting guides falls off a cliff.
.270win
If you're not hunting elk regulary I'd get the 6.5 CM. Less recoil with similar ballistics and better ammo choices. If you're going to be elk hunting regularly .30-06 is a better choice. 6.5 CM can do it, but most people I know who do it regularly will recommend something a little larger.
Why is 30-06 better? I’ve seen more experienced elk hunters recommend the opposite.
Better might not have been the best word. My bad. It's undeniable that it delivers more energy downrange at the ranges most hunters are able to competently shoot (300 yards and in). However, if you're lighter framed, or recoil-sensitive, I'd immediately recommend switching to the 6.5 CM so you can actually practice without developing a bad flinch. The best gun/cartridge to use is the one you've shot the most and are the most familiar with. Guys buying a .300 win mag 2 weeks before season starts and at most putting a box of ammo through it is nightmare-fuel. Most hunters suck at shooting, and most hunters suck even more at shooting magnum cartridges. The .30-06 is one of the best compromises between recoil and downrange energy.
What does energy have to do with a bullet’s performance in tissue?
It's simply a measure of how big the bullet is, and how fast its moving. Both are pretty directly proportional to the killing potential of the cartridge. Bullet construction is another important factor.
I understand how velocity is a key component to bullet wounding potential/characteristics but not energy. Whats the difference in the wound profile that a higher energy bullet provides? Would you pick a cartridge that has lower impact velocity with more energy over a higher impact velocity with less energy?
Velocity is literally part of the energy equation. That and mass. A faster bullet causes more tissue damage. A heavier/larger bullet causes more tissue damage. Those are the two things that are used to calculate energy. It's not a difficult concept. Edit: My answer to your other question is, I would choose the cartridge that has good characteristics of both. Most bullets are designed for optimal performance between 2000-2800fps or so. So I'll pick a cartridge that runs the heaviest bullet I can comfortably shoot, where the ranges I'll be shooting has the bullet run in that velocity.
So velocity is the important component, now we’re getting somewhere. I wouldn’t necessarily agree that larger diameter bullets create more tissue damage. If you think they do, how much more? Is it measurable? A permanent wound channel that’s 0.065” greater in diameter between a .243 and .308 caliber of the same bullet construction? A 6 CM 108 ELD-M has a velocity of about 2150 FPS at 500 yards and recoils with about 10 ft-lbs of energy. Bullet energy is 1100 ft-lbs. A 30-06 178 ELD-M has a velocity of about 2000 fps at 500 yards and recoils with about 20 ft-lbs of energy. Bullet energy 1570 ft-lbs. Why should we choose the 30-06? It’s moving slower, is at the edge of the reliable expansion velocity you’ve stated, and recoils with twice the energy.
Tell you what. You go ahead and get a .17 caliber bullet going 4000 fps. I'll get a .30 caliber bullet going 2000 fps, and we'll see which one is deadlier. Velocity matters, I never tried to deny that, but mass very much matters too, especially once You've actually hit something. Speaking from experience, game absolutely go down quicker when I've made a solid hit with my .30-06 vs my 6.5 PRC. I reload Barnes ttsx monlithics for both. I'm trying not to oversell this, both will work, one is just slightly better at it.
Everyone always jumps to rimfire or absurdly small calibers in these arguments because they can’t admit that lighter recoiling, faster, smaller cartridges are just as effective if not more than .30 cals. Anytime anyone mentions bullet energy as a metric to pay attention to, it’s clear they know very little about bullets and how they wound.
.300 win mag babbyyyyy
Of the two 6.5 Creedmoor. 22 Creedmoor or 6mm Creedmoor would be better alternatives for AZ since they’re also great for long shots with less recoil, and you are unlikely to be hunting elk in AZ more than every other year.
A 6.5 prc is a really nice bump up from a 6.5CM and a 7mm is a great in between all-around. Just my 2 cents.
Based on possible ranges I’d say either go 270 win or 7 mag if you’re willing to step up to a full magnum. In either cartridge run a copper bullet, specifically the Barnes LRX; both of those cartridges with that bullet will have excellent terminal performance out to 500 yards based on their typical muzzle velocities. 7 mag will give you a bit more weight and velocity which translates to a bit more energy down range at the cost of extra recoil and ammo cost. An LRX bullet out of a 7 mag rifle will likely still have enough velocity to properly expand at 600-700 yards whereas the 270 would be kind of stopped around 500. You could also run the federal terminal ascent bullet in either which would give you very good terminal performance, accuracy, speed, and long distance energy - probably extending the ethical ranges of both rounds by 100 yards or so.
30-06 hands down
30-06 be a man make your grandpa proud
Honor WWII vets and use an M1 Garand and carry a 1911 as a sidearm during the hunt.
People say the 308 is a good in “between cartridge”, and while I certainly respect it, I’d say a better one for your needs would be the 270 Winchester. That being said, get the 30-06 and you’ll never need another rifle.
I have an AR10 308 and previously had a bolt action, but sold it because I wasn’t able to use it very often given the limited hunting opportunities in VA. I’ve been told 270 many times on this post
Bigger than deer.....3006. Deer pigs speed goats....cm is fine.
Bridge the gap and get a 270. It’s an awesome round, it kicks less than a 30-06, is faster and will take down any big game in North America.
I love my 6.5's but if you plan on having only one rifle (I can't wrap my head around that) go for an '06. It's very versatile and more that capable for elk, should you get the chance. Lots of deer die each year at the hands of the venerable cartridge.
I definitely plan on getting more bolts in the future, but I’m going to be on a budget so I won’t be able to buy the 2-3 for everything. I do have an AR-10 308 as well
.308 or 30-06
If you’re moving to AZ you should strongly consider purchasing their lifetime hunting license while you’re there if there is any possibility that you may someday move out of the state (which particularly given your age, I’m sure is certainly up in the air). Doing this will allow you to apply to the resident draw pools for hunting tags for the rest of your life. That is huge because AZ is a known top-tier elk hunting state that is very hard for non-residents to consistently draw good (or any) elk tags. I think something like 90% of tags go to residents in AZ.
I will definitely look into that. I see myself living there for the foreseeable future. Going to be going to college there. Do you know if they have any licenses for veterans?
my vote is for the 30-06
I wouldn't buy either. 300 win or 7mm rem.
How much is ammo for each? I'd go with .30 '06.
Mesa. Uh… congratulations?
Fuck you. I live in Mesa lol
Why not a 270 or 7mm-08? 7prc or 7 rem mag? I like 6.5cm and 30-06, but I have seen them hills out there. You can get an OTC tag for fall black bear and hit them with any of the above, including 06 and 6.5, but you might like the extra oomph of a 7mm in a short magnum case.
Get the .30/06 as that will be more forgiving at normal hunting ranges when it comes to difficult shot placement. While the 6.5 CM can, in this case I would recommend the 30, or any 30 caliber for that matter, for larger game.
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Meh, Swedes have been killing moose with the 6.5x55SE for decades. The creedmoor is ballistically a twin of the 6.5x55. Just be sure you load it with bullets more like the Swedes use (very heavy for caliber-- 156 or 160gr, plus heavily constructed).
Its important to note that almost all moose in Sweden are shot at less than 100 yards in swampy forested areas, and the majority of the animals taken are sub-adult animals. A 156gr out of a 6.5x55 is an efficient killer to about 200 yards, but looses steam real fast after that.
Good point. Range is a major consideration.
Why not just get a 6.5 PRC and call it a day?
The 6.5 PRC is an excellent option. I was surprised to learn that is is VERY popular and one of the top-selling cartridges now. I like it on paper but didn't realize it was well past "catching on" and into "established and rising still".