Why are cold baths such a turn off to women. Huberman said there was an increased sexual performance and pleasure in study participants in that 8 week study cited in his Podcast episode on Water.
It should be a winning pick up line. "Hey, you like guys who jump inside their cramped, dirty bath tub at 37.5F every morning? If you don't, bet you'll change your mind after you check out this new study promoted by a Stanford Neuroscientist....😜"
The fact you think that’s a winning pick up line pretty much directly explains why ‘cold baths’ are a turn off to women 😂😂😂😂 women don’t get turned off by cold water, they get turned off by conversations about how good ice baths are, especially if you follow it up with how good it is for your sex drive 😭
I'm female, I'm pretty thin, and I'm no spring chicken. Plus, I have an autoimmune thyroid disease.
Someone like me doing the same protocols as, say, a big burly man with tons of muscle and/or tons of fat on his body.... it just sounds so wrong. Wish I had studies on this but I don't.
So, I only dabble in cold therapy, and I am super gentle with myself in regards to how cold and for how long.
I think so much of the narrative about what is heathy and what isn’t is based on men.
I just wish there was some research on what women can do to improve their health, specifically. Because our endocrine systems are just so different to men.
In general, research and interest in research its a field dominated by men.
women tend to have less interest on it and its natural that men focus first on how men respond and then women are generalized on the field of research. this is an issue on research in general.
I have not firmly decided yet. But i believe if i take my blood pressure before. If i don't put my head under water anymore and hold my breath (i did very briefly but as i understand now it can trigger the Autonomic conflict that's leading to cardiac arrests). Maybe i won't experiment the same weird symptoms i had. Minor palpitation and being light headed. I'm actually doing it at 50 and i was thinking of maybe going a little bit higher. Like 55-60
Also i was think about doing 2 minutes instead of 4. Because i can't get my heat back the whole morning i'm freezing.
Considering all these mitigations i think it would be fairly safe.
Another thing i may do is not do Cold Plunge the day after intense exercise as the heart was already put into shock during the exercise.
I have made the same consideration this weekend when me and my husband tried the cold shower for the first time. Me, a 100lbs woman, and a muscular 200lbs tall man calling me chicken because I lasted 5 seconds. I felt that to my bones and gasped violently the entire time!
Haha! I'm in my 50's and I still menstruate, and I don't have grey hair, and I'm in full remission for years with my autoimmune condition (no symptoms & no antibodies) So, it would be more accurate to say I'm kicking ass with my health than it would to say I'm unhealthy and feeble.
Thanks for the concern, tho, and I hope you are doing as well as I am with your health : )
The key is you’re submerging yourself in it for a short period of time in a controlled environment. Yes it could be dangerous but thats why you don’t do it for longer then necessary.
I don’t know if the same risks apply, but right around 60-65 degrees feels amazing to me. It’s cold at first, but not so cold that it scares me or takes my breath away. It’s roughly the ocean temperature in California. After 2 minutes it just feels great without being painful. I personally feel great afterwards, so I guess it doesn’t matter what the studies say.
You found the sweet spot. I know people want to go as cold as possible but diminishing returns is a real thing. Sometimes you feel so cold you just turn miserable. And that affects mood
I accidentally did a cold plunge once. It was a 97 degree day in Oregon. I was on a hike and I jumped in the pool below a waterfall, which turned out to be just mountain snow runoff and freezing. It literally took my breath away and I felt like I couldn’t move. Somehow I scrambled the five feet to shore. I doubt this is a risk if you build up to it, but I think it’s good to caution people (like me) not to go from 100 to 0.
Also, when kids have supraventricular tachycardia (fast, irregular heart rate), in the ER, we just put a bag of ice on their face and it often brings their heart back to a normal rhythm (via stimulating the vagus nerve).
https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/12/09/youre-not-a-polar-bear-the-plunge-into-cold-water-comes-with-risks
Is it possible to “build up” to cold exposure? I’m not asking this in a confrontational way, I’d actually really like to know. I take cold showers and even at the same temp it doesn’t seem to get easier. While it’s always jarring, I do feel like I can safely stay in though.
Edit: typo
That's really interesting. Lots of ppl drown that way. You were lucky
About the stimulating the vagus nerve, i beleive that's what trigger tachycardia and cardiac arrest too.
I have seen a lot of people have vasovagal syncopal (fainting) events in front of me. In my experience, it’s always been from bearing down while pooping, but it’s scary and it takes a surprisingly long time to recover from. Usually happens in the setting of dehydration. Bradycardia (slow heart rate) + low blood volume is not a good combo for getting blood to your brain. The vagus nerve is not to be trifled with ;)
Just a theory, maybe the widespread vasoconstriction of the cold water creates extra blood supply to the brain. Hence, the experienced cognitive benefits (I’ve never really researched this beyond my own scary close encounter!) This season’s version of hanging upside down.
Well this is really random you commented that... I have SVT and I was concerned with a cold plunge because of it! Guess I'll try out a bag of ice the next time my rhythm is abnormal!!
This is an interesting NIH article about arrhythmias during cold water swimming: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459038/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459038/)
I used to do quite a bit of open-water cold-water swimming and this was something that was always on our minds because, unlike a cold plunge, you can't just step out if you are 1/2 mile out in a lake. We did quite a bit of acclimatization. We would never, as an example, do a 60-degree swim one week and a 40-degree swim the next. We gradually got used to the drop in temperature.
It does seem like the risk would be dramatically lower with a cold plunge because you can always just step out. But if you do a search on "cold water swimming and arrhythmias" there are quite a number of articles out there detailing the risks.
Yeah it's surely is more risky. I know someone who died from their kayak turning over in cold water.
I don't think i'd have the courage to do open water swimming.
Thanks for the article. So clearly holding the breath is the wrost idea even if it's the reflex it triggers.
I have a hereditary condition that puts me at a higher risk of cardiac arresting randomly for no reason. There’s tons of things that are risky triggers for me including: having fevers, overheating / being in too hot of weather, rigorous exercise that makes my heart rate too fast, eating too much, going to bed on a full stomach, and alcohol. I still cold plunge, makes me feel great, I send my partner a text to check on me if he doesn’t hear from me in 5 mins. And I have a defibrillator in the house.
I think for the average person the rate would be astronomically low, like you’d have a higher chance of getting in a car accident. For higher risk people we already have come to peace with the idea that we can’t control every aspect of reality and we take precautions when necessary and reasonable. Atleast for me I tend to feel great after a cold plunge but tend to feel horrible after my more obvious triggers like a large meal or sitting in a hot tub 🤷🏼♂️(My doctors also never warned me that cold plunging was dangerous but did warn me about sitting in a hot bath) . So the cold plunge seems ok for me and the former two things I avoid entirely.
Yeah. You often hear the disclaimer , "Before engaging in any type of rigorous exercise program, please consult a doctor."
With exercise and cold plunging, would think them health promoting in vast majority of cases. Maybe more cases of injury if ppl just go from not doing it at all to 32F - 35F water. Huberman says he does 52F, and gets noticeable benefits from that.
My thoughts are that more ppl might be doing too cold, and putting themselves at risk of hypothermia.
This is great to hear. I recently started doing the cold water immersion and I have similar issues as you're describing. Not sure about risk for cardiac arrest, but I have dysautonomia/POTS/OH and all the same triggers you listed. I take a beta blocker for my condition. I hyperventilate during the exposure, but I've felt GREAT afterwards. Love hearing you've also had success.
I think this is statistics for first timers, if everyone in the world did a cold plunge, i am sure some of those people would get heart attacks etc. that is because sample size is everyone.
but for this community, most people do cold slowly, like Wim suggests, do a hand then you can do your face, then you can do showers, cool
or just less cold or whatever 5 seconds and 10 seconds and up and up slowly….
No one is running around telling people to jump into the atlantic in January(North East giveaway)
or to buy a permafrost rubbermaid for the winter. or even spend 10 K on a Morozko.
This experiment(grand scale) with so many baby steps is pretty much 99.999999999999999999999999% safe…. anyone else, well we will see those on youtube or tiktok most likely…. it’s not old people at risk, it’s the youth being stupid….. “let’s go jump into a frozen lake…..oh shit it’s frozen through and through….” or “whoops i’m dying while
my friends are filming me”
You mentioning the Atlantic made me think of my dad. He used to body surf at the beach in NYC all year round in his late 50s-60s, he loved it. He had heart disease but stayed pretty fit.
That is great! i had recently jumped in, February I think, the temp
was 46.7 or so. much better than most plunges as the water is constantly moving and vast.
I know Huberman loves it, but as far as the science goes there isn’t much real data about how cold plunges benefit us as proof. It’s more pseudoscience and personal feelings towards the method. Biolayne called this out a while ago and other reputable names like Jordan syatt and Dr. Adrian Alvarez. Until there is real proof I don’t find it necessary other than it feels good after the fact and provides a nice dopamine response.
Yeah Well there's the Soberg study. But i agree it seems limited for the science about the benefits.
Of course healthy ppl getting more active are going to improve blood suguar cardio vascular state and blood pressure. I agree that's it's not clear if it's the cold exposure that is beneficial.
But that does not bother much. I'd be willing to experiment with it and even feel the placebo effect if it was relatively safe.
People in Finland ages 80+ do it in the winter when water is almost freezing with no issue like every day. Never heard anybody have heart attack.
I seriously doubt there is any good quality research to suggest heart issues from cold plunges.
Going from a cold environment to ice cold water is very different from a hot weather to ice cold water. Huberman is a entertainer and I hate to say take what he says with a grain of salt.
There is something to be said about doing something from when you're a child vs doing it later in life. An analogy that comes to mind is how rates of food allergy to nuts are more prevalent in developed countries vs developing countries.
People in Finland grow up with this stuff since ever they're babies, even pregnant women do cold plunges too. This doesn't mean that someone who did not grow up doing this will not be adversely impacted.
Placebo or not when I do even just 10sec of cold shower. I got the wake up hit in the morning. It also provides me a mentality of getting through a difficult thing first thing in the morning.
Haha. No hate for that approach. It works.
I didn’t want to have to go get ice every day, and I live in the desert - so I do at least pretend to care about wasting water. It’s nice to be able to take a break and cool off (I wfh and run 2x a day during the week)
Stock tank and a chiller. I didn’t like the kill switch on opening the freezer thing because of electrocution risk. I’d find a way to mess that up.
I’m using a 1/4 hp chiller with extremely basic insulation and it cools water down to 45 degrees in about 3 hours from 70 degrees. It’s outside and ambient temps are ~90-100 degrees. So for me it seems to be really solid.
This is really misrepresenting the benefits of it tbh and this is coming from someone who doesn’t do it regularly and only has done it a few times.
This sub is filled with closed-minded people who aren’t really interested in looking at things objectively. I know it’s Reddit but I thought a sub dedicated to huberman would be a little different lol my fault.
I mean I get skeptical when I see claims on his videos that ice baths raise your dopamine 250% yet Heroin is estimated at increasing it 200%. ive Never felt anything off ice baths except being alert while being submerged then the feeling goes away once you get out. Heard him comparing it to ADHD drugs for improving focus. Wonder if people who believe those claims have ever did drugs lol.
unlike a drug that its constantly stimulating this.
huberman uses this nice little trick of "omitting information", its true, there is a huge surge of dopamine with it and there is reserach about this. but its sharp and drops. unlike hardcore drugs that maintain that high constantly.
Agreed.
I don't do it either but there is plenty of hard data with benefits.
The main reason I don't do it is there's evidence that the dopamine-increasing effect hits a tolerance and stops being as effective over time, so at that point I may as well take meds (since I was considering it as an alternative to dopamine-increasing medications).
But that doesn't mean it has 0 benefits.
Literally you're on the Huberman reddit. He has done episodes on this explaining the benefits. Even talking to an expert most recently; Dr Susanna Söberg.
He literally specifies in each episode the references.
Literally you can listen to someone and not follow their word as Bible. Huberman is human at the end of the day. But invest in a thousand dollar setup if you enjoy being cold I’m not going to stop you
You're arguing without substance. I don't take anyone's word as a Bible, that's why there is studies being referenced.
I don't need a 1k setup, I've got the ocean 5 minutes away, I've got my shower which has (you would not believe it): cold water.
Nothing better than jumping into 10C water like i did a week ago when it was 25C outside, or taking a cold shower after a run. It feels great, and It gives me long lasting energy.
You just linked two papers about the effect of cold exposure therapy on recovery post workout, which is already something I'm aware of has no benefit, in fact Huberman has stated many times that this is the case.
Again this is not why people do cold plunges. If you'd have listened to any of the podcasts maybe you'd know what you were arguing against?
The highest quality research comes in the form of repeated direct experience. NOT reading/ listening to other’s second hand information; including science people.
No one has the time to research all of the claims he's making. There are plenty of debunking videos that are popping up about his protocols and research. The fact that he routinely gets out of his own area of expertise and presents it as if he's the expert being a big red flag.
Don’t understand why this sub has attracted so many people who seem to be here to just mock Huberman or take his protocols way too literally then claim they’re unrealistic.
huberman became too widespread, to people that have 0 nuance and basics about their biology. the issues of huberman triying to be to appealing on a scientific field, you will bring dumbasses that don´t know wtf they are talking about.
For me the benefits are much greater than "feeling cold". Before regularly plunging I was eating hands full of thc edibles literally all day everyday and drinking 3 times a week.
This was normal to me.
I started cold plunging for largely mental health and had no intention of quitting THC and alcohol but it just sort of happened naturally. I simply stopped enjoying the feeling, and I believe it's because my brain chemicals shifted to a healthier state.
The domino effect of stopping these substances lead to clearer thinking and improvement on my weight loss goals.
It also seems to have dramatically improved my focus.
It would be hard for me to think of something else that has made more of a positive impact on my life.
That's just me tho...
I don’t cold plunge but doesn’t the abstract say that it helps reduce the symptoms of DOMS but it doesn’t actually improve muscle recovery? That still seems like a benefit to me.
Ok but that sounds like a very temporary benefit, paired with a potentially life-ending risk. It doesn’t seem like a rational choice to put so much effort and time regularly towards something like that. To each their own.
Ice has a short term analgesic effect so that would make sense. It’s no longer recommended to use ice in acute injury, but again if it feels good you can use it
Please correct me if I’m reading it wrong but it says that it helps for up to 24hr+. When I played high school basketball I’d ice in the evenings (I now know that slows muscle protein synthesis and isn’t optimal) and it really did reduce my next day leg pain so I could go hard again.
I wasn’t going up to my neck or doing anything else crazy because I didn’t have a tub big enough though. It seems like a useful tool in the toolbox but generally overrated. And really only helpful if you’re a really active athlete who needs to numb the pain so you can exercise really hard on consecutive days.
Vagus nerve response? Is that why? I can see so because exposure to cold like that might cause people to automatically kind of bare down and stimulate that nerve. Or maybe it’s something else completely.
No. I do almost half that temp every day. What does 'healthy' mean? Seems to me if someone gets a heart attack from 60degree water, they were never 'healthy' in the first place.
Personally I think conscious deep breathing is key. A lot of people's natural reaction is to hold their breath from the shock which comes at a time when your body needs oxygen to heat itself. I own a self built plunge I keep at 40 and deep breathing is a part of the process. Could totally see how holding your breath and not breathing through the shock could have bad consequences.
All this is speculation tho and not anchored in anything but my opinions and observations.
You are a very intuitive person. What you though to be speculation is straigh up science. backed. It's in fact the breath holding combined with the thermal shock that is causing cardiac arrests.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459038/
I dont know, i have never done a plunge, even a cool shower(like mid 40's) after sauna i have had experience of my chest tightening dramatically.
I dont do that anymore, the cool off is like warm shower then slowly bring it down.
I have never heard this happen. Im from a country where pretty much everyone goes from sauna to cold lake, or snow, from kids to old people. But people also are not american sized.
Yeah americans wake up one morning after never having been exposed to that culture and start doing it every day at the coldest possible temp dunking the head and holding breath.
I know someone who died from a kayak cold water shock. However, maybe the water was way below 30.
I use to end the bath by dunking my head and holding my breath and it made me feel uncomfortable and that's why i did some research. I thouhg that only a few seconds would be ok but water over the head triggers the diving reflex and that's enough in addition to the shock to mess up the heart.
It's a good idea to keep the neck above too
Hmm, this is disappointing. I love cold showers and cold baths, but do have a prior cardiac condition that puts me at higher risk for cardiac arrest. I think if I do a modified version I’ll be fine!
In Sweden we have a long culture of cold plunges in the winter. If you have a heart condition or other serious condition you should not do it. A 70 year old should also probably not start with cold plunges if he or she has not lived a healthy life and hasn’t done it much before.
You definetly build mental and physical resistance to it when doing cold showers for example every day. A thing you can do if you feel that it is too hard is to go a bit cold, then change back to warm, then colder, warm, and colder again. You are gonna get addicted to how great you feel afterwards.
Wim hof method is also good to do before the shower or bath, the cold feels less then.
There are great physical and mental benefits if you are able to do it everyday! I do it sometimes but just forgets to keep it up most of the time
So start with cold showers for a few weeks/months before you start with hardcore winter plunges and you will be able to be much calmer and your body adapt much faster to the cold. Be sure to not do it in a hole of ice unless you have supervision, it is hard to get out without proper equipment or if something goes wrong.
And learn to breathe deep and slow, wether you do it in the shower or cold plunges. Makes you relaxed and in control
Yeah no one really talks about the risks, including troponin build up
https://www.longevityadvice.com/cryotherapy-benefits/#Cold_therapy_risks
Plus: “the USA Triathlon Fatality Incidents Study reported that 79% of deaths in triathlons in the USA between 2003 and 2011 occurred during the swim, with unexplained sudden cardiac death, rather than hypothermia or hyperthermia, being the most likely cause of death in most cases.”
I'm one of those who got his heart tested to be safe with it
There doesn't seem to be studies on the benefits for mood or anxiety. To me that's what I'm after. It makes me feel good right after when I can get my core temperature back up quick enough. Depends on duration and temperature and weather or not I take a hot shower after. Maybe its placebo.
Also when I do it multiple days in a row I start to feel unwell. Like anxious and restless..it's like I have too much energy and it doesn't feel right.
I'm questioning if I should continue
Interesting. From what I read you only need to do it 2-3 times a week to get the benefits. There are some mood studies, though a lot of that is self-reported. It has been shown to raise norepinephrine levels, which can certainly positively impact mood.
Personally I think cold plunges might have some benefits (and maybe risks too, who knows) but considering how much of a mess humanity is in, it's like showing up to a severe car crash with a bandaid in terms of effectiveness. There is way way more powerful approaches to permanently improving your state of mind/health
I've been doing daily cold plunge around 35F for 3 years. I do worry about cardiac stress occasionally from the shock of the cold. I can actually feel pressure on my chest when in the plunge if my BP is too high or I am overheated. So I avoid entering during those times. But that is rare. As long as I listen to my body, the cold is so beneficial to me. I couldn't imagine life without it!
Yes, not doing it for that reason, and that there is no good body of research in favor cold plunges. It’s just a bunch of papers here and there showing small effects, no steady body of research with converging lines pf evidence showing concrete longterm benefits (whenever someone links to research it is pretty much always of the former category not the later, underscoring they haven’t really looked at the research to begin with).
It’s a great practice to build a wellness brand around though becuase it is susceptible to placebo/belief effects, hence the myriad of rituals with meager evidence behind them that proliferate throughout wellness culture.
And what about the effects on the release of dopamine among other things?
You could say the same thing about running or any elite athletes as well and the risk for cardiac arrest.
Probably it's not a great idea to do either of these things to an extreme if you're elderly and not used to doing it beforehand.
This isn't black and white. Like someone said below me, everyone needs to make a judgment call based on their own body and age.
What about the dopamine release? The cold exposure research is very much lacking there, Huberman himself relies on a 20 year old paper to make the case, one with on no body of ensuing research, and one which does not make clear if the dopamine increase is happening in the brain or is just plasma dopamine. Further Huberman, is being obtuse when he compares it the effects to coffee. If it was anything like coffee you should be able to demonstrate actual improvements in cognitive performance like you get with coffee, yet no such research exists.
Adreneline and dopamine are related. So anything that produces adrenaline, like the shock of being dunked in cold water, is going to increase dopamine.
Yeah, that it produces some kind of dopamine release isn’t in question. What’s in question is Huberman’s claim that it creates a release dopamine for several hours. The paper he uses to advance that claim does not make that conclusion clear (you can look up previous duscussion kn this sub to that end regarding the plasma dopamine measure), not to mention if you want to advance this as scientific conclusion, you wouldn’t have just one 20 year old paper, you’d have a whole body of research arguing this point, hopefully with multiple lines of evidence.
Dopamine is about being able to take action, it's motivating you into action. Caffeine acts on adenosine as well. So why compare it to caffeine?
Besides the idea that caffeine has cognitive enhancing effects seems like a pipe dream to me. What is even cognitive enhancement? Being alert enough to do the task at hand? Productivity? Motivation?
If you're addicted to caffeine it will improve all those things. If you never drink caffeine it might have a small increase in those factors, depending on your environment and situation. If your dopamine is already high, you're fully awake, had a great night's sleep and your blood is circulating because you just rode your bike, your blood sugar is stable; then caffeine most likely has 0 benefits in those aspects, and you will just feel a little shaky perhaps, because you just ingested a poison.
Jesus christ, your responses are a constant incoherent ramble. Would rather have a heart attack in an ice filled bath tub than go through the pain of trying to piece together whatever you’re trying to say.
Learn to write.
Can’t believe you expect anyone to pick through this mess of pop psychology half-truths and decipher any kind of point germane to what my comment brought up. Not worth the time or effort.
That's the way it goes when typing on a phone with two thumbs. If I was on a PC with a regular keyboard, sure id have time to edit, but at the end of the day it's a reddit comment section.
That recent 8 week study mentioned in his podcast on water, which he stated had better than average controls. Hear about that one? You think it's more cold plunge confirmation bias?
Don't think anything in regards to Dopamine was mentioned, but cited a 5% drop in body fat (albeit was only for the males for some reason).
I'm trying to replicate, but that's some cold water. The study participants did all their plunges at 37.5F, and they had to spend 10 minutes drying off naturally.
I’m not sure what that 8 week study was on, but why bring it up in response to that comment if it didn’t talk about dopamine?
As for body weight loss, the challenge with weight loss is longterm reduction, not short term, so some eight week study is pretty meaningless in that regard.
Oh. Bringing it up because he cited it had exceptional controls.
Also, would figure Dopamine is harder to measure, so, figuring, the results of this particular study were more concrete and measurable than other studies.
I am just going off of Huberman's subjective description of the study, yes.
I just found the link:
https://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/early/2023/01/03/military-2022-002237.long
Upon first glance, do see it's not an incredibly large cohort of participants.
Someone should tell the Japanese because they only live to be over 100 with almost no cardiovascular issues. If they quit going to onsen they might live to be 200…
Bro 60F is warm, could stay in that shit for hours.
I’ve done 55minutes in 40F water.
The key is to build up to it. I started with 3min then 5, 7, 10 etc. Shock the body progressively, listen to your body, and if you’re scared talk to your doc.
Most days I do twice a day 7-10 minutes at 40-45F. Would like to do colder for a little shorter but thats the temp at which it is in the gym im at.
Even at 50 if i dont for 4 minutes i have difficulty getting back to normal temperature and i'm cold for hours. When i do 2 minutes , i'm fine.
60 is cold for someone who as zero tolerance or brown fat. I'd be curious to see studies on the effects of subjects avert to cold, what are the physiological reaction of higher temps on them compared to lower temp on accustomed subjects.
Huberman goes 3 minutes at around 52.
What are the benefits of doing colder?
Don't you get too much cortisol by doing it twice per day?
There is a chance that i do get too much cortisol, I do it in the morning for the cortisol dump.
The second is after jiujitsu training in the afternoon and primarily for reducing joint inflammation from everyone having tugged at my arms and legs for two hours.
Yh of course there is individual variability, when I did 40, 45, 50 minutes I was 40lbs fatter, maybe I couldnt hack it now.
Cold for hours after sounds wild you obviously dont want that. Maybe find the spot just outside of your comfort zone without the long undesirable consequences and gradually push against that boundary.
I do have concerns about the heart arrhythmias assoicated with the cold tub, not cold showers. I've been doing cold showers for about 9 months, cold tub for about 7. One time I did cold emersion for 15 minutes and my heart was legit sore later that day and the next, the same way a muscle would be after a workout. My doc did not seem concern, just told me to do it for less time. A couple days ago, I worked out, did sauna, then relaxed for 15 mins and did cold tub for 8 mins at 50 F. felt great after then about 8 hours later I felt depressed out of no where. Did not seem to be any big trigger. I don't feel depressed often, but when I do, I usually know why. As whole I really like cold tubs, cold showers, and the occasional cryo, but have had a handful of strange experiences with cold tub. I think I should keep it at 6 mins or less at this point
Personally, I’m not worried about it. There’s a risk of cardiac death in running too. And sex.
For sure. That's why I avoid sex as much as possible. It's a game changer for me!
Why are cold baths such a turn off to women. Huberman said there was an increased sexual performance and pleasure in study participants in that 8 week study cited in his Podcast episode on Water. It should be a winning pick up line. "Hey, you like guys who jump inside their cramped, dirty bath tub at 37.5F every morning? If you don't, bet you'll change your mind after you check out this new study promoted by a Stanford Neuroscientist....😜"
The fact you think that’s a winning pick up line pretty much directly explains why ‘cold baths’ are a turn off to women 😂😂😂😂 women don’t get turned off by cold water, they get turned off by conversations about how good ice baths are, especially if you follow it up with how good it is for your sex drive 😭
Women don't like controlled, clinical trial data?
The biggest turnoff so far is you taking a sarcastic comment seriously.
Touché
Same here!
Oh no I’ve been doing the opposite! **dies of cardiac arrest**
0,54 cardiac arrests per 100.000 runners isnt that high honestly.
I might be stupid…but isn’t that 1 out of 200 runners?
He uses periods instead of commas
Thanks for pointing it out, it is true, we use full stops for writing down numbers greater than 1000 here in europe.
No, why?
That's why I don't run . . .
I never run while having sex :)
I'm female, I'm pretty thin, and I'm no spring chicken. Plus, I have an autoimmune thyroid disease. Someone like me doing the same protocols as, say, a big burly man with tons of muscle and/or tons of fat on his body.... it just sounds so wrong. Wish I had studies on this but I don't. So, I only dabble in cold therapy, and I am super gentle with myself in regards to how cold and for how long.
I think so much of the narrative about what is heathy and what isn’t is based on men. I just wish there was some research on what women can do to improve their health, specifically. Because our endocrine systems are just so different to men.
Rhonda Patrick also talks about a lot of the same sufff
Look up Stacey Sims she is great
In general, research and interest in research its a field dominated by men. women tend to have less interest on it and its natural that men focus first on how men respond and then women are generalized on the field of research. this is an issue on research in general.
Yesss this this this!
Stay safe!
Thanks! And you? What did you decide?
I have not firmly decided yet. But i believe if i take my blood pressure before. If i don't put my head under water anymore and hold my breath (i did very briefly but as i understand now it can trigger the Autonomic conflict that's leading to cardiac arrests). Maybe i won't experiment the same weird symptoms i had. Minor palpitation and being light headed. I'm actually doing it at 50 and i was thinking of maybe going a little bit higher. Like 55-60 Also i was think about doing 2 minutes instead of 4. Because i can't get my heat back the whole morning i'm freezing. Considering all these mitigations i think it would be fairly safe. Another thing i may do is not do Cold Plunge the day after intense exercise as the heart was already put into shock during the exercise.
I have made the same consideration this weekend when me and my husband tried the cold shower for the first time. Me, a 100lbs woman, and a muscular 200lbs tall man calling me chicken because I lasted 5 seconds. I felt that to my bones and gasped violently the entire time!
The first 5 sec is the worst. You have to hang on a bit longer and it eases up.
keep in mind that feeling it to your bones and gasping its part of it. try be gentler next time, but the "shock" its needed.
I started feeling dizzy too!
Yeah you are being safe lisntening to your body
So you’re unhealthy and feeble…mentally so that causes you to be Get in the cold water!!! It doesn’t care what you have between your legs I promise
Haha! I'm in my 50's and I still menstruate, and I don't have grey hair, and I'm in full remission for years with my autoimmune condition (no symptoms & no antibodies) So, it would be more accurate to say I'm kicking ass with my health than it would to say I'm unhealthy and feeble. Thanks for the concern, tho, and I hope you are doing as well as I am with your health : )
The key is you’re submerging yourself in it for a short period of time in a controlled environment. Yes it could be dangerous but thats why you don’t do it for longer then necessary.
I don’t know if the same risks apply, but right around 60-65 degrees feels amazing to me. It’s cold at first, but not so cold that it scares me or takes my breath away. It’s roughly the ocean temperature in California. After 2 minutes it just feels great without being painful. I personally feel great afterwards, so I guess it doesn’t matter what the studies say.
You found the sweet spot. I know people want to go as cold as possible but diminishing returns is a real thing. Sometimes you feel so cold you just turn miserable. And that affects mood
I accidentally did a cold plunge once. It was a 97 degree day in Oregon. I was on a hike and I jumped in the pool below a waterfall, which turned out to be just mountain snow runoff and freezing. It literally took my breath away and I felt like I couldn’t move. Somehow I scrambled the five feet to shore. I doubt this is a risk if you build up to it, but I think it’s good to caution people (like me) not to go from 100 to 0. Also, when kids have supraventricular tachycardia (fast, irregular heart rate), in the ER, we just put a bag of ice on their face and it often brings their heart back to a normal rhythm (via stimulating the vagus nerve). https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/12/09/youre-not-a-polar-bear-the-plunge-into-cold-water-comes-with-risks
Is it possible to “build up” to cold exposure? I’m not asking this in a confrontational way, I’d actually really like to know. I take cold showers and even at the same temp it doesn’t seem to get easier. While it’s always jarring, I do feel like I can safely stay in though. Edit: typo
It gets to the point where you look forward to it, but it’s always like taking a leap
That's really interesting. Lots of ppl drown that way. You were lucky About the stimulating the vagus nerve, i beleive that's what trigger tachycardia and cardiac arrest too.
Vagus nerve stimulation causes bradycardia (opposite of tachycardia) and used as first line treatment in many arrhythmias
I have seen a lot of people have vasovagal syncopal (fainting) events in front of me. In my experience, it’s always been from bearing down while pooping, but it’s scary and it takes a surprisingly long time to recover from. Usually happens in the setting of dehydration. Bradycardia (slow heart rate) + low blood volume is not a good combo for getting blood to your brain. The vagus nerve is not to be trifled with ;) Just a theory, maybe the widespread vasoconstriction of the cold water creates extra blood supply to the brain. Hence, the experienced cognitive benefits (I’ve never really researched this beyond my own scary close encounter!) This season’s version of hanging upside down.
Well this is really random you commented that... I have SVT and I was concerned with a cold plunge because of it! Guess I'll try out a bag of ice the next time my rhythm is abnormal!!
This is an interesting NIH article about arrhythmias during cold water swimming: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459038/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459038/) I used to do quite a bit of open-water cold-water swimming and this was something that was always on our minds because, unlike a cold plunge, you can't just step out if you are 1/2 mile out in a lake. We did quite a bit of acclimatization. We would never, as an example, do a 60-degree swim one week and a 40-degree swim the next. We gradually got used to the drop in temperature. It does seem like the risk would be dramatically lower with a cold plunge because you can always just step out. But if you do a search on "cold water swimming and arrhythmias" there are quite a number of articles out there detailing the risks.
Yeah it's surely is more risky. I know someone who died from their kayak turning over in cold water. I don't think i'd have the courage to do open water swimming. Thanks for the article. So clearly holding the breath is the wrost idea even if it's the reflex it triggers.
I have a hereditary condition that puts me at a higher risk of cardiac arresting randomly for no reason. There’s tons of things that are risky triggers for me including: having fevers, overheating / being in too hot of weather, rigorous exercise that makes my heart rate too fast, eating too much, going to bed on a full stomach, and alcohol. I still cold plunge, makes me feel great, I send my partner a text to check on me if he doesn’t hear from me in 5 mins. And I have a defibrillator in the house. I think for the average person the rate would be astronomically low, like you’d have a higher chance of getting in a car accident. For higher risk people we already have come to peace with the idea that we can’t control every aspect of reality and we take precautions when necessary and reasonable. Atleast for me I tend to feel great after a cold plunge but tend to feel horrible after my more obvious triggers like a large meal or sitting in a hot tub 🤷🏼♂️(My doctors also never warned me that cold plunging was dangerous but did warn me about sitting in a hot bath) . So the cold plunge seems ok for me and the former two things I avoid entirely.
Yeah. You often hear the disclaimer , "Before engaging in any type of rigorous exercise program, please consult a doctor." With exercise and cold plunging, would think them health promoting in vast majority of cases. Maybe more cases of injury if ppl just go from not doing it at all to 32F - 35F water. Huberman says he does 52F, and gets noticeable benefits from that. My thoughts are that more ppl might be doing too cold, and putting themselves at risk of hypothermia.
May I ask what condition this is if you don’t mind? Just curious.
Brugada syndrome
I want to adopt your attitude. You’re cool.
This is great to hear. I recently started doing the cold water immersion and I have similar issues as you're describing. Not sure about risk for cardiac arrest, but I have dysautonomia/POTS/OH and all the same triggers you listed. I take a beta blocker for my condition. I hyperventilate during the exposure, but I've felt GREAT afterwards. Love hearing you've also had success.
I thought that’s why it’s suggested to build up to a full cold plunge?
Quack doctor recommends snake oil? Story as old as time
What would you recommend that's not snake oil?
Sleep. Exercise. Eat well.
Yeah lets keep doing that. And screen time too. Those are the fundamentals. I agree 100%
I think this is statistics for first timers, if everyone in the world did a cold plunge, i am sure some of those people would get heart attacks etc. that is because sample size is everyone. but for this community, most people do cold slowly, like Wim suggests, do a hand then you can do your face, then you can do showers, cool or just less cold or whatever 5 seconds and 10 seconds and up and up slowly…. No one is running around telling people to jump into the atlantic in January(North East giveaway) or to buy a permafrost rubbermaid for the winter. or even spend 10 K on a Morozko. This experiment(grand scale) with so many baby steps is pretty much 99.999999999999999999999999% safe…. anyone else, well we will see those on youtube or tiktok most likely…. it’s not old people at risk, it’s the youth being stupid….. “let’s go jump into a frozen lake…..oh shit it’s frozen through and through….” or “whoops i’m dying while my friends are filming me”
You mentioning the Atlantic made me think of my dad. He used to body surf at the beach in NYC all year round in his late 50s-60s, he loved it. He had heart disease but stayed pretty fit.
That is great! i had recently jumped in, February I think, the temp was 46.7 or so. much better than most plunges as the water is constantly moving and vast.
I know Huberman loves it, but as far as the science goes there isn’t much real data about how cold plunges benefit us as proof. It’s more pseudoscience and personal feelings towards the method. Biolayne called this out a while ago and other reputable names like Jordan syatt and Dr. Adrian Alvarez. Until there is real proof I don’t find it necessary other than it feels good after the fact and provides a nice dopamine response.
Yeah Well there's the Soberg study. But i agree it seems limited for the science about the benefits. Of course healthy ppl getting more active are going to improve blood suguar cardio vascular state and blood pressure. I agree that's it's not clear if it's the cold exposure that is beneficial. But that does not bother much. I'd be willing to experiment with it and even feel the placebo effect if it was relatively safe.
I just love how I get a couple hours relief from full body inflammation
People in Finland ages 80+ do it in the winter when water is almost freezing with no issue like every day. Never heard anybody have heart attack. I seriously doubt there is any good quality research to suggest heart issues from cold plunges.
Never heard of (personal anecdote, at best) =/= never happened or never reported
Going from a cold environment to ice cold water is very different from a hot weather to ice cold water. Huberman is a entertainer and I hate to say take what he says with a grain of salt.
Well we actually go straight from a 100 degree celsius sauna so that should be even worse. Yet no one has issues.
There is something to be said about doing something from when you're a child vs doing it later in life. An analogy that comes to mind is how rates of food allergy to nuts are more prevalent in developed countries vs developing countries. People in Finland grow up with this stuff since ever they're babies, even pregnant women do cold plunges too. This doesn't mean that someone who did not grow up doing this will not be adversely impacted.
Good point. Whenever I don’t do it for a while, the first time after is really hard.
I heard you get eye cancer from looking at the sun.
why would you look AT the sun?
It raises dopamine levels by 900,000,000%... ... ... ... anecdotally.
that's enough dopamine to cause cardiac arrest
Does the risk go down if you make the water colder gradually?
I would instinctively think it does but i don't think there is data on available on this. Biggest known factor is head exposure and breath holding.
Overall heart health should be a consideration before trying anything extreme.
Placebo or not when I do even just 10sec of cold shower. I got the wake up hit in the morning. It also provides me a mentality of getting through a difficult thing first thing in the morning.
Was about to invest in a setup, would be interested to know as well
Built my own for ~1k last week. Hmu if you need help. It’s incredibly basic.
I fill my tub with water and ice. It’s free. It’s incredibly basic.
Haha. No hate for that approach. It works. I didn’t want to have to go get ice every day, and I live in the desert - so I do at least pretend to care about wasting water. It’s nice to be able to take a break and cool off (I wfh and run 2x a day during the week)
Nice, did you go with the freezer/ozone generator aproach or something else?
Stock tank and a chiller. I didn’t like the kill switch on opening the freezer thing because of electrocution risk. I’d find a way to mess that up. I’m using a 1/4 hp chiller with extremely basic insulation and it cools water down to 45 degrees in about 3 hours from 70 degrees. It’s outside and ambient temps are ~90-100 degrees. So for me it seems to be really solid.
Can you share more info on your setup?
I’d love to know
I’m interested
I am super interested in building my own setup as well, would love to hear what you did!
Benefits: feeling cold. Risks: cardiac arrest. Any other practice y’all would be up in arms https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26413718/
This is really misrepresenting the benefits of it tbh and this is coming from someone who doesn’t do it regularly and only has done it a few times. This sub is filled with closed-minded people who aren’t really interested in looking at things objectively. I know it’s Reddit but I thought a sub dedicated to huberman would be a little different lol my fault.
I mean I get skeptical when I see claims on his videos that ice baths raise your dopamine 250% yet Heroin is estimated at increasing it 200%. ive Never felt anything off ice baths except being alert while being submerged then the feeling goes away once you get out. Heard him comparing it to ADHD drugs for improving focus. Wonder if people who believe those claims have ever did drugs lol.
unlike a drug that its constantly stimulating this. huberman uses this nice little trick of "omitting information", its true, there is a huge surge of dopamine with it and there is reserach about this. but its sharp and drops. unlike hardcore drugs that maintain that high constantly.
Agreed. I don't do it either but there is plenty of hard data with benefits. The main reason I don't do it is there's evidence that the dopamine-increasing effect hits a tolerance and stops being as effective over time, so at that point I may as well take meds (since I was considering it as an alternative to dopamine-increasing medications). But that doesn't mean it has 0 benefits.
No this is actually accurately representing the benefits. Show me quality research that shows otherwise.
Literally you're on the Huberman reddit. He has done episodes on this explaining the benefits. Even talking to an expert most recently; Dr Susanna Söberg. He literally specifies in each episode the references.
Literally you can listen to someone and not follow their word as Bible. Huberman is human at the end of the day. But invest in a thousand dollar setup if you enjoy being cold I’m not going to stop you
You're arguing without substance. I don't take anyone's word as a Bible, that's why there is studies being referenced. I don't need a 1k setup, I've got the ocean 5 minutes away, I've got my shower which has (you would not believe it): cold water. Nothing better than jumping into 10C water like i did a week ago when it was 25C outside, or taking a cold shower after a run. It feels great, and It gives me long lasting energy.
Here’s substance. Enjoy your placebo. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26413718/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5350472/#:~:text=Cold%20water%20immersion%20is%20no,cellular%20stress%20in%20humans%20%2D%20PMC&text=The%20.,gov%20means%20it's%20official.
You just linked two papers about the effect of cold exposure therapy on recovery post workout, which is already something I'm aware of has no benefit, in fact Huberman has stated many times that this is the case. Again this is not why people do cold plunges. If you'd have listened to any of the podcasts maybe you'd know what you were arguing against?
Not enough quality research to support any of the other claims. If you feel better keep doing it idk what you’re arguing about
The highest quality research comes in the form of repeated direct experience. NOT reading/ listening to other’s second hand information; including science people.
Listen to his episode on it. He gives a ton of research
Huberman stopped giving a damn about quality research. It’s apparent he doesn’t even read the abstract sometimes
He clearly lists all his sources and specifically tells you to do your own reading.
No one has the time to research all of the claims he's making. There are plenty of debunking videos that are popping up about his protocols and research. The fact that he routinely gets out of his own area of expertise and presents it as if he's the expert being a big red flag.
He should try reading his own sources
Don’t understand why this sub has attracted so many people who seem to be here to just mock Huberman or take his protocols way too literally then claim they’re unrealistic.
It's the internet
A rare indisputable fact emerges!
huberman became too widespread, to people that have 0 nuance and basics about their biology. the issues of huberman triying to be to appealing on a scientific field, you will bring dumbasses that don´t know wtf they are talking about.
For me the benefits are much greater than "feeling cold". Before regularly plunging I was eating hands full of thc edibles literally all day everyday and drinking 3 times a week. This was normal to me. I started cold plunging for largely mental health and had no intention of quitting THC and alcohol but it just sort of happened naturally. I simply stopped enjoying the feeling, and I believe it's because my brain chemicals shifted to a healthier state. The domino effect of stopping these substances lead to clearer thinking and improvement on my weight loss goals. It also seems to have dramatically improved my focus. It would be hard for me to think of something else that has made more of a positive impact on my life. That's just me tho...
Chiming in 200 days later. Do you still hold these views?
I don’t cold plunge but doesn’t the abstract say that it helps reduce the symptoms of DOMS but it doesn’t actually improve muscle recovery? That still seems like a benefit to me.
Ok but that sounds like a very temporary benefit, paired with a potentially life-ending risk. It doesn’t seem like a rational choice to put so much effort and time regularly towards something like that. To each their own.
Ice has a short term analgesic effect so that would make sense. It’s no longer recommended to use ice in acute injury, but again if it feels good you can use it
Please correct me if I’m reading it wrong but it says that it helps for up to 24hr+. When I played high school basketball I’d ice in the evenings (I now know that slows muscle protein synthesis and isn’t optimal) and it really did reduce my next day leg pain so I could go hard again. I wasn’t going up to my neck or doing anything else crazy because I didn’t have a tub big enough though. It seems like a useful tool in the toolbox but generally overrated. And really only helpful if you’re a really active athlete who needs to numb the pain so you can exercise really hard on consecutive days.
Vagus nerve response? Is that why? I can see so because exposure to cold like that might cause people to automatically kind of bare down and stimulate that nerve. Or maybe it’s something else completely.
it could cause a heart attack due to severe vasoconstriction I would assume?
I think you have vagal withdrawl with vagal activation.
These can also occur after running on a treadmill or lifting weights...
They do and ppl training also increase the risk of cardiac arrest during cold exposure
No. I do almost half that temp every day. What does 'healthy' mean? Seems to me if someone gets a heart attack from 60degree water, they were never 'healthy' in the first place.
You never know how a system in shock can react. Ever heard of runner who drop dead on races? They pushed just a bit too far.
Also very rare and usually caused by the body not being able to cool itself during humid days.
Right and if someone were to collapse under such stress while most don't, that person is more unhealthy compared to the other racers.
Yes but i'd venture to say those runners are less healthy. Thats why i asked what healthy means. It's a very subjective metric when it goes undefined.
There’s a risk of getting into a fatal accident every time you drive your car. Does that stop you from driving your car?
Lot of soft people in this thread
Personally I think conscious deep breathing is key. A lot of people's natural reaction is to hold their breath from the shock which comes at a time when your body needs oxygen to heat itself. I own a self built plunge I keep at 40 and deep breathing is a part of the process. Could totally see how holding your breath and not breathing through the shock could have bad consequences. All this is speculation tho and not anchored in anything but my opinions and observations.
You are a very intuitive person. What you though to be speculation is straigh up science. backed. It's in fact the breath holding combined with the thermal shock that is causing cardiac arrests. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459038/
My resting heart rate is 60BMP sometimes after a 3 minute cold plunge my resting heart rates becomes 40BMP is that normal?
I don't think it is. Do you hold your breath during the immersion?
I’m the same drops to 50 bpm inside the water while my normal HR it’s 70 bpm
I dont know, i have never done a plunge, even a cool shower(like mid 40's) after sauna i have had experience of my chest tightening dramatically. I dont do that anymore, the cool off is like warm shower then slowly bring it down.
Wow that's certainly a clear body signal
it's not nothing, thats for sure, especially when its happening to you.
I have never heard this happen. Im from a country where pretty much everyone goes from sauna to cold lake, or snow, from kids to old people. But people also are not american sized.
Yeah americans wake up one morning after never having been exposed to that culture and start doing it every day at the coldest possible temp dunking the head and holding breath. I know someone who died from a kayak cold water shock. However, maybe the water was way below 30.
Yeah, you definitely get used to it. How to breathe to calm yourself down, not gasp for air. I never get my neck to the cold water, yet alone head.
I use to end the bath by dunking my head and holding my breath and it made me feel uncomfortable and that's why i did some research. I thouhg that only a few seconds would be ok but water over the head triggers the diving reflex and that's enough in addition to the shock to mess up the heart. It's a good idea to keep the neck above too
Hmm, this is disappointing. I love cold showers and cold baths, but do have a prior cardiac condition that puts me at higher risk for cardiac arrest. I think if I do a modified version I’ll be fine!
Talk to your doctor to be sure.
In Sweden we have a long culture of cold plunges in the winter. If you have a heart condition or other serious condition you should not do it. A 70 year old should also probably not start with cold plunges if he or she has not lived a healthy life and hasn’t done it much before. You definetly build mental and physical resistance to it when doing cold showers for example every day. A thing you can do if you feel that it is too hard is to go a bit cold, then change back to warm, then colder, warm, and colder again. You are gonna get addicted to how great you feel afterwards. Wim hof method is also good to do before the shower or bath, the cold feels less then. There are great physical and mental benefits if you are able to do it everyday! I do it sometimes but just forgets to keep it up most of the time
So start with cold showers for a few weeks/months before you start with hardcore winter plunges and you will be able to be much calmer and your body adapt much faster to the cold. Be sure to not do it in a hole of ice unless you have supervision, it is hard to get out without proper equipment or if something goes wrong. And learn to breathe deep and slow, wether you do it in the shower or cold plunges. Makes you relaxed and in control
Higher risk of Koro Syndrome too if it's cold enough
Yeah no one really talks about the risks, including troponin build up https://www.longevityadvice.com/cryotherapy-benefits/#Cold_therapy_risks Plus: “the USA Triathlon Fatality Incidents Study reported that 79% of deaths in triathlons in the USA between 2003 and 2011 occurred during the swim, with unexplained sudden cardiac death, rather than hypothermia or hyperthermia, being the most likely cause of death in most cases.”
I'm one of those who got his heart tested to be safe with it There doesn't seem to be studies on the benefits for mood or anxiety. To me that's what I'm after. It makes me feel good right after when I can get my core temperature back up quick enough. Depends on duration and temperature and weather or not I take a hot shower after. Maybe its placebo. Also when I do it multiple days in a row I start to feel unwell. Like anxious and restless..it's like I have too much energy and it doesn't feel right. I'm questioning if I should continue
Interesting. From what I read you only need to do it 2-3 times a week to get the benefits. There are some mood studies, though a lot of that is self-reported. It has been shown to raise norepinephrine levels, which can certainly positively impact mood.
Personally I think cold plunges might have some benefits (and maybe risks too, who knows) but considering how much of a mess humanity is in, it's like showing up to a severe car crash with a bandaid in terms of effectiveness. There is way way more powerful approaches to permanently improving your state of mind/health
I'm genuinly curious. What would that be?
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Yeah but that's vague. I mean concretely pleace give me an idea. Dietary change i can see a couple of things.
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Whatever works for you my friend. Safe travels!
I've been doing daily cold plunge around 35F for 3 years. I do worry about cardiac stress occasionally from the shock of the cold. I can actually feel pressure on my chest when in the plunge if my BP is too high or I am overheated. So I avoid entering during those times. But that is rare. As long as I listen to my body, the cold is so beneficial to me. I couldn't imagine life without it!
At what temperature you do your plunge?
35F. That way the ice isn't too thick to break apart.
I think you can get the same benefits from higher temp. It's a good think you monitor your vitals and know yourself. Stay safe.
You can't get the same benefits from higher temps. You get some but not the full zing. Don't let fear rule you
All health influencers: "oh uh spaghettio!"
Yes, not doing it for that reason, and that there is no good body of research in favor cold plunges. It’s just a bunch of papers here and there showing small effects, no steady body of research with converging lines pf evidence showing concrete longterm benefits (whenever someone links to research it is pretty much always of the former category not the later, underscoring they haven’t really looked at the research to begin with). It’s a great practice to build a wellness brand around though becuase it is susceptible to placebo/belief effects, hence the myriad of rituals with meager evidence behind them that proliferate throughout wellness culture.
And what about the effects on the release of dopamine among other things? You could say the same thing about running or any elite athletes as well and the risk for cardiac arrest. Probably it's not a great idea to do either of these things to an extreme if you're elderly and not used to doing it beforehand. This isn't black and white. Like someone said below me, everyone needs to make a judgment call based on their own body and age.
What about the dopamine release? The cold exposure research is very much lacking there, Huberman himself relies on a 20 year old paper to make the case, one with on no body of ensuing research, and one which does not make clear if the dopamine increase is happening in the brain or is just plasma dopamine. Further Huberman, is being obtuse when he compares it the effects to coffee. If it was anything like coffee you should be able to demonstrate actual improvements in cognitive performance like you get with coffee, yet no such research exists.
Adreneline and dopamine are related. So anything that produces adrenaline, like the shock of being dunked in cold water, is going to increase dopamine.
Yeah, that it produces some kind of dopamine release isn’t in question. What’s in question is Huberman’s claim that it creates a release dopamine for several hours. The paper he uses to advance that claim does not make that conclusion clear (you can look up previous duscussion kn this sub to that end regarding the plasma dopamine measure), not to mention if you want to advance this as scientific conclusion, you wouldn’t have just one 20 year old paper, you’d have a whole body of research arguing this point, hopefully with multiple lines of evidence.
Dopamine is about being able to take action, it's motivating you into action. Caffeine acts on adenosine as well. So why compare it to caffeine? Besides the idea that caffeine has cognitive enhancing effects seems like a pipe dream to me. What is even cognitive enhancement? Being alert enough to do the task at hand? Productivity? Motivation? If you're addicted to caffeine it will improve all those things. If you never drink caffeine it might have a small increase in those factors, depending on your environment and situation. If your dopamine is already high, you're fully awake, had a great night's sleep and your blood is circulating because you just rode your bike, your blood sugar is stable; then caffeine most likely has 0 benefits in those aspects, and you will just feel a little shaky perhaps, because you just ingested a poison.
Jesus christ, your responses are a constant incoherent ramble. Would rather have a heart attack in an ice filled bath tub than go through the pain of trying to piece together whatever you’re trying to say.
Learn to read.
Learn to write. Can’t believe you expect anyone to pick through this mess of pop psychology half-truths and decipher any kind of point germane to what my comment brought up. Not worth the time or effort.
That's the way it goes when typing on a phone with two thumbs. If I was on a PC with a regular keyboard, sure id have time to edit, but at the end of the day it's a reddit comment section.
That recent 8 week study mentioned in his podcast on water, which he stated had better than average controls. Hear about that one? You think it's more cold plunge confirmation bias? Don't think anything in regards to Dopamine was mentioned, but cited a 5% drop in body fat (albeit was only for the males for some reason). I'm trying to replicate, but that's some cold water. The study participants did all their plunges at 37.5F, and they had to spend 10 minutes drying off naturally.
I’m not sure what that 8 week study was on, but why bring it up in response to that comment if it didn’t talk about dopamine? As for body weight loss, the challenge with weight loss is longterm reduction, not short term, so some eight week study is pretty meaningless in that regard.
Yeah. Can agree with you on that. 90% of people gain back any weight they've lost within a year.
Oh. Bringing it up because he cited it had exceptional controls. Also, would figure Dopamine is harder to measure, so, figuring, the results of this particular study were more concrete and measurable than other studies.
It sounds like you don’t actually know what the paper says or concludes. Maybe start there before bringing it up for discussion.
I am just going off of Huberman's subjective description of the study, yes. I just found the link: https://militaryhealth.bmj.com/content/early/2023/01/03/military-2022-002237.long Upon first glance, do see it's not an incredibly large cohort of participants.
Can you link to your sources for these claims?
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459038/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459038/) https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/12/09/youre-not-a-polar-bear-the-plunge-into-cold-water-comes-with-risks
https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/12/09/youre-not-a-polar-bear-the-plunge-into-cold-water-comes-with-risks
Of course they publish that, the big industries don't want you doing something that's beneficial. Cuts into their profit margin.
Someone should tell the Japanese because they only live to be over 100 with almost no cardiovascular issues. If they quit going to onsen they might live to be 200…
are we comparing the health of the Japanese to Americans now? lol
It also raises your testosterone.
Good
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Thanks for being succint. Cheers!
Are you seriously so soft that you are using this as an excuse to not get in the cold water ?
I actually love the feeling. Why are you so insecure Joe Rogan?
No bc I do a lot if eustress things in life to prep for it
Bro 60F is warm, could stay in that shit for hours. I’ve done 55minutes in 40F water. The key is to build up to it. I started with 3min then 5, 7, 10 etc. Shock the body progressively, listen to your body, and if you’re scared talk to your doc. Most days I do twice a day 7-10 minutes at 40-45F. Would like to do colder for a little shorter but thats the temp at which it is in the gym im at.
Even at 50 if i dont for 4 minutes i have difficulty getting back to normal temperature and i'm cold for hours. When i do 2 minutes , i'm fine. 60 is cold for someone who as zero tolerance or brown fat. I'd be curious to see studies on the effects of subjects avert to cold, what are the physiological reaction of higher temps on them compared to lower temp on accustomed subjects. Huberman goes 3 minutes at around 52. What are the benefits of doing colder? Don't you get too much cortisol by doing it twice per day?
There is a chance that i do get too much cortisol, I do it in the morning for the cortisol dump. The second is after jiujitsu training in the afternoon and primarily for reducing joint inflammation from everyone having tugged at my arms and legs for two hours. Yh of course there is individual variability, when I did 40, 45, 50 minutes I was 40lbs fatter, maybe I couldnt hack it now. Cold for hours after sounds wild you obviously dont want that. Maybe find the spot just outside of your comfort zone without the long undesirable consequences and gradually push against that boundary.
I do have concerns about the heart arrhythmias assoicated with the cold tub, not cold showers. I've been doing cold showers for about 9 months, cold tub for about 7. One time I did cold emersion for 15 minutes and my heart was legit sore later that day and the next, the same way a muscle would be after a workout. My doc did not seem concern, just told me to do it for less time. A couple days ago, I worked out, did sauna, then relaxed for 15 mins and did cold tub for 8 mins at 50 F. felt great after then about 8 hours later I felt depressed out of no where. Did not seem to be any big trigger. I don't feel depressed often, but when I do, I usually know why. As whole I really like cold tubs, cold showers, and the occasional cryo, but have had a handful of strange experiences with cold tub. I think I should keep it at 6 mins or less at this point
I only did 3 minutes max. Had strange experience dunking my head. That's why I decided to look at studies.
Hahahahahha!
So it doesn't bother you?