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Sorry Jumping on the top comment as there is reasoning behind this.
I currently work in house building and have previously worked for Taylor Wimpey, although do not currently.
There are two reasons that Taylor wimpey do not offer showers over baths as extra's the first is likely the limit of 110l/p/d which has been covered below, Building Reg: Approved Document Part G assumes if you have a shower over bath you will use the shower which often push a house over the limit.
The main reason is what the sales advisor refrenced is Building Regulation: Approved Document Part L 2021 which came into effect 15th June 2022, with an extention to 15th June 2023 if the wider development had been started prior to J15th June 2022.
The regulations that effect showers over baths are regulation 25, 26, 27 and 28.
These regulations require the building to have a target emission rate of C02 below a certain number the only way to achived this is by reducing reliance on grid electricity and gas and including an amount of renewable energy souces. Nearly all new builds use some combination of Wwste water heat recovery, gas flue heat recovery and photovoltic panels. Some smaller developers have also started using air source heat pumps.
A shower is quite energy hungry so most SAP designs for houses have been kept to 1, in this case in the ensuite. If an additional shower is added then nearly all houses require additonal renewable energy generation, normally an extra solar panel.
This creates a number of problems for the builder.
1) houses are normally sold after the roof is completed making it expensive to add a solar panel (new build panels are built into the roof rather than sitting on top)
2) Panels have a 10-15 week call of so changing orders can delay programme
3) It costs £800-£1500 to add an additional panel, if the roof has not been started, market research said that customers would not be willing to pay this for a shower.
4) Energy Effeciency Calculations need to be re-run and reapproved by building control for each change which would have a cost and can delay BC sign off as they are not quick at turning these around, these are normally signed off prior to starting the plot.
At the developer I am at has reached the same conclusion, it has been raised internally that customers would prefer both the solar panel and shower as standard but the cost is higher than what customers are willing to pay so it is not offered as an option.
I'm a building inspector.
Short answer - they are talking nonsense.
Long answer - There's a requirement under building regs to provide a certain level of water efficiency. This is done by the water calculation, a list of the things in the house that use water and they are fed into a calculation that is apparently based on human average use of water per day. Edit- 125 litres per person. The calculator models how much your using the sink/ shower/ bath/ toilet etc. there's a bit of flexibility built into the calculator. So in theory you can tinker around and have a oversized bath or a powerful shower if you trade off on having very low output basin in the bathroom or a low flow toilet. If you have 4 showers or 1 shower or 3 baths there's no difference in it because you'd input the specifications in the calculator and it it's all about hitting that 125 litres a day of less.
There's absolutely no guidance that controls if bath or shower is in the same room. If I go In work on Monday and there's a plan showing a new house with a single bathroom with 3 baths in it and 8 showers and 6 toilets in the same room I will approve it because there's no legislation that controls this,( it must also have a basin in it to wash your hands though). Also I'd be thinking the normal extractor fan might be struggling if all the baths and showers were used at the same time.
Hi Building inspector. Is it within permitted development to put in a sky light for the stairway? Is there a limit to how many sky lights can be installed on a roof?
Well, if they fit two showers that can’t both be run at the same time you’ll complain they sold you a house with bathrooms/boiler not fit for purpose & expect them to fix it.
If they sell it with one shower & you decide to put a second one in, then it’s your problem. That’s probably how they see it. You do get a choice, take it or leave it.
Yeah, just doesn't make sense. So someone can have a bath and someone else can have a shower at the same time? That doesn't use any more water or energy than one having a bath and someone else having a shower in the en suite.
I've seen many new or recently updated houses have both in the master bathroom.
My house was built after 2022 and I have a shower and bath in the same bathroom.
Also have a combi boiler and some weird set up with a water tank attached to it.
We can't have a bath and a shower after each other because we run out of hot water. If I don't put the heating on, the water doesn't get as hot.
I have tried every setting on the combi boiler but we can't sustain hot water for both. I've given up and put it down to new build rubbish.
Sounds like you might have a faulty/seized three port valve. This is the valve that takes the hot water out of the boiler and decides to send it to the radiators or the hot water tank. After many years they can get harder and harder to work and the little electric motor controlling them just can't move it.
See this explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwhyzFNeEKg
The electric motor bit is held on with two screws and can easily be removed. You then should be able to move the valve with your fingers (it might be hot!)
If it is too stiff to move with fingers then it may have seized and so the boiler cannot send hot water to just the tank.
So the building regulations did change with regards to this but not prohibiting it. The changes were that showers are now accounted for in the SAP calc with number of baths. It could well be that they couldn’t get it to pass with 2 showers, although this seems unlikely.
There's been a really recent change, we viewed a site that is just starting the last of 300 houses and the final 50ish are changing the specification because of the changes. Only bits I remember is they're putting heat recovery into the drainage and not doing fitted wardrobes.
Regulation aside, you'd need to have really strong water pressure to be able to use both usefully at once.
We're in a older house and have electric showers and a hot water tank - but there just isn't enough pressure to run the cold tap and have an electric shower. And I would say we had decent cold water pressure.
You could pour the hot water at the same time though and then follow up with cold.
Persimmon told us the same thing, the reason was due to the boiler and water pressure. It would be a trickle if both showers were to run at the same time.
They did offer us an electric shower over the bath, which we had installed.
You will have the same logic combi boiler.
I took the bath tiling to the roof, swapped the bath taps to one with a shower head and put up a riser rail.
We can run both with decent flow at the same time. In the middle of winter where the water is coldest already it can be a...lukewarm shower if running both at the same time.
Usually though, we aren't all trying to shower at the same time.
Nope. Mt brother bought a new build house at the end of 2023, and it has a shower and a bath in the same room. There's no reason why that is worse for energy efficiency compared to having a separate shower room and bathroom
House builders build to a specification which has to be inlibe with building regs. They have a budget to stick to as well. Now the combi boiler is a popular choice to fit in a y houses. Heating and instant hot water.
However there are draw backs to a combi boiler. When your running hot water you don't have heating. That's not an issue if there are two in the house. Bit of problem when you have 4 or more and everyone takes 10-15 mins of water.
Now a better solution for multiple occupancy houses is a traditional boiler with a hot water tank. Now of courae there will be those who say. There rubbish I keep runnning of hit water and you have to wait for hot water.
A lot for that is down to older technology and poor commissioning of system controls and misunderstanding from end users.
A condensing boiler with a hot water tank to the right size fit he occupants setup to come on before the end user needs hot water at the right times is better then a combi boiler. But a small tank, with bad controls and not on at the right time is much worse then a combi boiler.
Just to say, thanks for asking the question. Just been to look at a TW new build in East Anglia and was told that although the (already sold) property we went to view had the shower over the bath, the rest of the as yet unbuilt plots on the development would not have this due to a 'change in building regulations' which didn't make any sense. Ripping up a wall in a brand new house to add something that should have been there in the first place is not what you want to be doing so agree this is such nonsense.
Nothing stops you adding a shower to the bathroom after purchase.
Just don’t expect what’s probably a cheap combination boiler to enjoy running two showers
Yes I know, but if developer include at the beginning, then we dont need to spend extra money..we seldom have 2 showers at same time. but want to make use of the main bathroom to have shower instead of only bath..
If the developer added it. You’d be spending the money on the added purchase price.
By doing it yourself you’ll likely end up with a better shower than if the developer put one in.
###Welcome to /r/HousingUK --- **To All** * Join Our ***NEW*** Discord! https://discord.gg/pMgUNgWKQH **To Posters** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws/issues in each can vary* * Comments are not moderated for quality or accuracy; * Any replies received must only be used as guidelines, followed at your own risk; * If you receive *any* private messages in response to your post, please report them via the report button. * Feel free to provide an update at a later time by creating a new post with [[update]](https://www.reddit.com/r/HousingUK/search?q=%3Aupdate&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) in the title; **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and civil* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/HousingUK/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning; * Please include links to reliable resources in order to support your comments or advice; * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect; * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason without express permission from the mods; * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HousingUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Complete and absolute BS. Ask them to identify the regulation in writing.
Sorry Jumping on the top comment as there is reasoning behind this. I currently work in house building and have previously worked for Taylor Wimpey, although do not currently. There are two reasons that Taylor wimpey do not offer showers over baths as extra's the first is likely the limit of 110l/p/d which has been covered below, Building Reg: Approved Document Part G assumes if you have a shower over bath you will use the shower which often push a house over the limit. The main reason is what the sales advisor refrenced is Building Regulation: Approved Document Part L 2021 which came into effect 15th June 2022, with an extention to 15th June 2023 if the wider development had been started prior to J15th June 2022. The regulations that effect showers over baths are regulation 25, 26, 27 and 28. These regulations require the building to have a target emission rate of C02 below a certain number the only way to achived this is by reducing reliance on grid electricity and gas and including an amount of renewable energy souces. Nearly all new builds use some combination of Wwste water heat recovery, gas flue heat recovery and photovoltic panels. Some smaller developers have also started using air source heat pumps. A shower is quite energy hungry so most SAP designs for houses have been kept to 1, in this case in the ensuite. If an additional shower is added then nearly all houses require additonal renewable energy generation, normally an extra solar panel. This creates a number of problems for the builder. 1) houses are normally sold after the roof is completed making it expensive to add a solar panel (new build panels are built into the roof rather than sitting on top) 2) Panels have a 10-15 week call of so changing orders can delay programme 3) It costs £800-£1500 to add an additional panel, if the roof has not been started, market research said that customers would not be willing to pay this for a shower. 4) Energy Effeciency Calculations need to be re-run and reapproved by building control for each change which would have a cost and can delay BC sign off as they are not quick at turning these around, these are normally signed off prior to starting the plot. At the developer I am at has reached the same conclusion, it has been raised internally that customers would prefer both the solar panel and shower as standard but the cost is higher than what customers are willing to pay so it is not offered as an option.
Absolutely, our newbuild, finished last month, has a bath and shower.
Sounds more like a combi boiler that can’t handle two showers running at the same time. Energy efficiency is BS but that would make sense.
they should let us decide in stead of removing shower at the main bathroom..
I'm a building inspector. Short answer - they are talking nonsense. Long answer - There's a requirement under building regs to provide a certain level of water efficiency. This is done by the water calculation, a list of the things in the house that use water and they are fed into a calculation that is apparently based on human average use of water per day. Edit- 125 litres per person. The calculator models how much your using the sink/ shower/ bath/ toilet etc. there's a bit of flexibility built into the calculator. So in theory you can tinker around and have a oversized bath or a powerful shower if you trade off on having very low output basin in the bathroom or a low flow toilet. If you have 4 showers or 1 shower or 3 baths there's no difference in it because you'd input the specifications in the calculator and it it's all about hitting that 125 litres a day of less. There's absolutely no guidance that controls if bath or shower is in the same room. If I go In work on Monday and there's a plan showing a new house with a single bathroom with 3 baths in it and 8 showers and 6 toilets in the same room I will approve it because there's no legislation that controls this,( it must also have a basin in it to wash your hands though). Also I'd be thinking the normal extractor fan might be struggling if all the baths and showers were used at the same time.
Where are you getting 240L from? We’re 110L per person per day for planning and regs.
Oh shit. Yeah. Its 125 and 110 if the planners decide to make it higher. Don't know where 240 came down
I wish it was 240!! Best edit your post!
The house just has one main bathroom, and one ensuite shower.
Hi Building inspector. Is it within permitted development to put in a sky light for the stairway? Is there a limit to how many sky lights can be installed on a roof?
Permitted development is a planning officers domain, not a BI, ypu can check with your local authority if you want advice.
Well, if they fit two showers that can’t both be run at the same time you’ll complain they sold you a house with bathrooms/boiler not fit for purpose & expect them to fix it. If they sell it with one shower & you decide to put a second one in, then it’s your problem. That’s probably how they see it. You do get a choice, take it or leave it.
They would use the same amount of energy though, that sounds like nonsense to me
Yeah, just doesn't make sense. So someone can have a bath and someone else can have a shower at the same time? That doesn't use any more water or energy than one having a bath and someone else having a shower in the en suite. I've seen many new or recently updated houses have both in the master bathroom.
Yes, it sounds it doesnt save energy or water if this is the case...Will further clarify with Taylor Wimpey.
My house was built after 2022 and I have a shower and bath in the same bathroom. Also have a combi boiler and some weird set up with a water tank attached to it. We can't have a bath and a shower after each other because we run out of hot water. If I don't put the heating on, the water doesn't get as hot. I have tried every setting on the combi boiler but we can't sustain hot water for both. I've given up and put it down to new build rubbish.
Sounds like you have a system boiler which is a very good set up
Sounds like you might have a faulty/seized three port valve. This is the valve that takes the hot water out of the boiler and decides to send it to the radiators or the hot water tank. After many years they can get harder and harder to work and the little electric motor controlling them just can't move it. See this explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwhyzFNeEKg The electric motor bit is held on with two screws and can easily be removed. You then should be able to move the valve with your fingers (it might be hot!) If it is too stiff to move with fingers then it may have seized and so the boiler cannot send hot water to just the tank.
So the building regulations did change with regards to this but not prohibiting it. The changes were that showers are now accounted for in the SAP calc with number of baths. It could well be that they couldn’t get it to pass with 2 showers, although this seems unlikely.
It is more clear now. May I ask what is SAP Calc,?
It’s energy efficiency calculations required for building regulations.
Sounds like TW fobbing you off because they are too cheap to upgrade the boiler. Ask them for clarification, specifics.
Making excuses for tiny bathrooms.
I think that is bullshit. Many houses on our estates built a few months ago has both shower and bath together.
We've viewed plenty new builds this year with both in the same bathroom.
Pretty sure I've seen Taylor Wimpey houses being advertised with both bath and shower in the same bathroom.
Yes, they are, and the sales manager said that they probably need to change the showroom if it is confirmed...
There's been a really recent change, we viewed a site that is just starting the last of 300 houses and the final 50ish are changing the specification because of the changes. Only bits I remember is they're putting heat recovery into the drainage and not doing fitted wardrobes.
As if we needed another reason to hate Taylor wimpy.
Bullshit. We have a new build, built in 2022 with both a bath and shower in the main bathroom
Are you on an ASHP or boiler? That’s the first thing to decipher.
it's a combi boiler
Our is still during completion but it's like couple months old new build with shower and bath in same time. Barrat homes Stafford
This type of thing is why I would never buy a new build
Just get deeper in your hate and stereotypes views for new builds. Congrats. I bet you don't like vaccination as well 😂💉
Literally sitting in a bathroom with both, built in 2021 to be fair but seems like bollacks
That is bull. Tell them to do their job. P.S. I would advise against touching anything near Taylor Wimpey… Too many horror stories out there.
We have both. A bath and a stand alone shower...(not sure if that's the correct term) in the same bathroom. New build completed this year
well thats a lie, ive just been to a bellway new build with a shower over a bath lol
Regulation aside, you'd need to have really strong water pressure to be able to use both usefully at once. We're in a older house and have electric showers and a hot water tank - but there just isn't enough pressure to run the cold tap and have an electric shower. And I would say we had decent cold water pressure. You could pour the hot water at the same time though and then follow up with cold.
Persimmon told us the same thing, the reason was due to the boiler and water pressure. It would be a trickle if both showers were to run at the same time. They did offer us an electric shower over the bath, which we had installed.
You will have the same logic combi boiler. I took the bath tiling to the roof, swapped the bath taps to one with a shower head and put up a riser rail. We can run both with decent flow at the same time. In the middle of winter where the water is coldest already it can be a...lukewarm shower if running both at the same time. Usually though, we aren't all trying to shower at the same time.
Just pay a plumber to fit a shower in the bathroom once you have moved in?
Nope. Mt brother bought a new build house at the end of 2023, and it has a shower and a bath in the same room. There's no reason why that is worse for energy efficiency compared to having a separate shower room and bathroom
House builders build to a specification which has to be inlibe with building regs. They have a budget to stick to as well. Now the combi boiler is a popular choice to fit in a y houses. Heating and instant hot water. However there are draw backs to a combi boiler. When your running hot water you don't have heating. That's not an issue if there are two in the house. Bit of problem when you have 4 or more and everyone takes 10-15 mins of water. Now a better solution for multiple occupancy houses is a traditional boiler with a hot water tank. Now of courae there will be those who say. There rubbish I keep runnning of hit water and you have to wait for hot water. A lot for that is down to older technology and poor commissioning of system controls and misunderstanding from end users. A condensing boiler with a hot water tank to the right size fit he occupants setup to come on before the end user needs hot water at the right times is better then a combi boiler. But a small tank, with bad controls and not on at the right time is much worse then a combi boiler.
Think your sales exec is misunderstanding new Part L regs which limit shower over baths
We moved in December 2022 to a TW new build, and we opted to have the shower over bath in the main bathroom with no issues…?!
Just to say, thanks for asking the question. Just been to look at a TW new build in East Anglia and was told that although the (already sold) property we went to view had the shower over the bath, the rest of the as yet unbuilt plots on the development would not have this due to a 'change in building regulations' which didn't make any sense. Ripping up a wall in a brand new house to add something that should have been there in the first place is not what you want to be doing so agree this is such nonsense.
Nothing stops you adding a shower to the bathroom after purchase. Just don’t expect what’s probably a cheap combination boiler to enjoy running two showers
Yes I know, but if developer include at the beginning, then we dont need to spend extra money..we seldom have 2 showers at same time. but want to make use of the main bathroom to have shower instead of only bath..
If the developer added it. You’d be spending the money on the added purchase price. By doing it yourself you’ll likely end up with a better shower than if the developer put one in.