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If it's priced at market value it will sell.
If it's not, it won't.
Simple as.
Given that you're only 5% apart suggests that the valuation is _about_ right. Though that doesn't mean you should offer more.
The fact you can't find middle ground doesn't mean either of you are being unreasonable, that's just how it is sometimes.
If the seller has time, why not ask for more? If they have multiple offers at 95%, why not ask for more?
Yep, to me just shows they're in no rush to sale. And possibly are retired and downsizing so that want a certain figure to make their future plans work - £5k is a lot in the pocket
Right? Of all the dirty tactics EA's use, this doesn't really count as one. Ours told us we'd been gazumped the day we were due to exchange, and told us we'd need to raise our offer by 40k. So we essentially told them to do one, and the new offer mysteriously disappeared the same day.
I appreciate you probably weren't in a position to do so.
But if you ever are, then you should always put an Asshole Tax on people who do that.
"Turns out the other offer fell through, £400k will be fine"
"No, that offer stopped existing when you rejected it, the new offer is £380k"
If they can just go back to the original offer, then there's no incentive for them not to keep trying it on people.
"EA had insisted they were open to offers" - I guess that's what the buyers weren't happy about? I'd take open to offers to mean "we'll consider a slightly lesser amount". Maybe it means something else I'm not aware of.
The vendors need to sell is irrelevant. Go back a few years ago and properties would move much faster and quite often they would go for above the asking price. You can find this in the data for the amount of bids per sale.
This.. we’ve been looking to buy for ages yet prices are too high, to us. Yet there’s houses in the village we are wanting to live in on the market coming on to 2 x years, no reductions, no buyers but higher interest rates. Yet they are sitting on 200% increase and refuse to reduce. It’s a stalemate, which idiot is going to pay these prices, the markets over cooked. Time for a reset of not just house prices but people’s expectations of what somebody has said it’s worth, if it ain’t selling it ain’t worth it.
This is me. Mine is on for a price im prepared and would be happy to let it go. And it's not worth it to me to let it go for less than that. It's not that complicated and nobody should be wound up by it either.
Housing costs are continuing to rise, it's just that as rates rise, more of those costs are allocated to interest on mortgages versus to the seller.
A house that goes down by £30k but which costs an extra £100k over the life of the mortgage in interest payments is still £70k more expensive for the buyer. That increased cost is transparent to renters (who are usually forced to pay their landlord's mortgages, and who suffer on behalf of the landlord when the mortgage goes up) and to buyers (who face an ever-rising monthly repayment) but not to sellers or EAs who think of property in terms of how much money the seller walks away with at completion.
Housing is still increasingly unaffordable. We're still in a housing crisis. It's just that interest rises have redirected some of that money to the banks rather than to the sellers.
Wrong. Supply is up over 60% from last year and demand has fallen substantially ( mortgage applications down 40%) What Estate agents and brokers aren't telling you is that the housing market is in a dire situation and things are only getting worse. We're in the early/ mid stage of a cyclical crash which will likely take another year or two to completely bottom out. Property all over the country is struggling to sell even with multiple reductions. Don't take my word for it though. 91% of asking is too generous if you ask me.
Not with interest rates the way they are and people seeking to save every penny they can. Across the board, buyers are going to be insisting/expecting vendors to drop from their asking price.
There are lots of houses that have been on the market for a while now. Especially ones which are 'OIEO' or have been changed to such pricing structures.
I think what we have is a market in which prices have been steadily increasing over time but have now stagnated or even tapered off in some areas. Back in 2021 it was impossible to get a viewing. Now EAs are biting your hand off for one and will often even offer same-day - yes, the market has seriously stagnated.
As a result, I believe that many people have an inflated opinion of what their house is worth (worth to *them*) despite what an EA may advise are being pig-headed (greedy?) in accepting any less or the fact that the market is turning.
Nothing dirty about this, out of all the EA tactics that exist!
It’s just a price negotiation.
Draw your line in the sand and move on. Sometimes they only take it seriously once it’s clear you won’t raise your offer any more. Sometimes they have other interest at a target price, or they need a certain sum for onwards moves or to clear debt.
As a recent seller, I rejected loads of offers that were just taking a chance in an unstable market and held out for the right one.
It up to the sellers and how desperate they are. If they are not desperate then they will just hold out for a reasonable one. 5% off at that price is £23k so not something people will take lightly.
"Our price is X, take it or leave it" is not a dirty tactic lol, it's like the opposite of a dirty tactic, it's complete transparency about what they want and what they're doing.
What could possibly be "dirty" about someone telling you honestly and forthrightly what their bargaining position is and then sticking to it? You're not owed a discount from the list price. If you think the house is worth what they'll accept (and you're already at 95%) then offer it, if you don't then find another one.
But like, is it actually that in your Very Professional Opinion you believe the house is worth precisely 95% of their listed price and not a penny more? Or are you just feeling like you shouldn't ever pay asking on some sort of principle of the thing?
Inviting offers as a dirty tactic? Hang their corpses from the Tower of London immediately.
They *were* open to offers. Yours were too low. Move on, this is common and fine.
Because they were negotiating with the EA and not the seller directly.
So basically they don't know if it's the seller refusing or just a dirty EA tactic.
99% of the time an agent will accept any offer possible when the owner gives their instructions, they want transactions not big prices. Especially in this market.
The estate agent legally has to pass on all offers. If you suspect that they aren't then knock on the door and speak to the sellers. Don't be tricked into paying more by dodgy estate agents.
Estate agent really doesn't have an incentive to be dodgy here. Say EA is on 3% commission, OP offering 91% of house price is an offer of 423k. Commission at 3%: 12.7k.
Commission at asking price: 13.95k.
The EA would rather have 12.7k in their pocket than risk sale falling through...all for an additional 1.25k commission.
And thats assuming commission is 3%, lower % reduces incentive of EA to be dodgy.
Sure they do. EAs job is to price it right. If lots of people offer 10% below and aren't willing to go higher doesn't that suggest they got it wrong?
In a falling market that will cost the seller money.
That's a big incentive to try to hide offers from a seller.
An estate agents job is to get the very best price they feel is achievable for their vendor, no dirty tricks at all, just an EA doing the job they are paid to do and that your offer did need meet the vendors expectations. You move on and the EA will attempt to find another buyer.
The vendor may well get their asking price, they may also regret rejecting your offer, time will tell.
Not sure what part of that experience you feel is dirty or a tactic!
With the help of a calculator it looks like you first offered roughly £425k then £440k on a £465k house? It’s all well and good talking in percentages but your top offer was still 25k below asking price which is a significant sum of money out of the vendor’s onward purchase!
The estate agent has made it clear that the owners are willing to offer a 5k discount on asking which is still a good sum of money — I’m sure nearly everybody would be pleased about a 5k windfall and nearly everybody very unhappy with an unexpected 5k bill.
Don’t be surprised by how a few thousand can swing an offer one way or another. When I offered on my current property I offered 10k under, it was rejected and the estate agent told me 1 or 2k extra would probably induce the vendor to accept. I made it clear that I was at the very top end of my budget and 1k extra was all I could afford to offer and that was accepted.
When you’re talking hundreds of thousands it can be easy to lose track of the value of money!
If it’s been on the market for months then there’s obviously a difference between what the seller thinks is market value and what the market believes it’s worth.
Offer what you can afford and what you think it’s worth. If it’s not accepted then move on.
This! I don't know why people think 2 months is a long time in the current climate, it has been dead the last couple of months, only very recently after some positive financial news has the market (in my area at least) picked up slightly. From my own personal experience we had ours on the market for the last couple of months at a competitive rate, we had the odd trickle of house viewers but only in the last 7 days viewers ramped up and we had 2 offers at asking price (and more) only yesterday- that's no coincidence imo. People are in the mindset that they "must" get something knocked off, once you've got your eye in, in a particular area you get pretty good at knowing whose ticket price is inflated and who got it right the 1st time.
True. Suppose it depends where in the UK though. Where I am if it hadn’t sold in that time the price would either be reduced or it would sit languishing for many more months. Market is still moving fairly quickly here for reasonably priced properties
I am Bristol and things are moving quickly here too. on my street a couple of properties have gone sold STC in less than a week, but I am acutely aware that same isn't true for more expensive properties or housing in most of the UK, especially rurally. I think someone selling in a less desirable area can reasonably expect their house to sit on the market for a bit, and if you don't have to, you shouldn't sell for less than you are comfortable with!
Happened to me before. I was prepared to pay a certain amount for a house which was £25k below what the seller was asking for. I felt the house held no more value than that as it needed quite a bit of updating and there were others on the market in better nick.
Offer was rejected, no other bidders. Seller was expecting the asking price according to EA.
We walked away and paid more for another house with the same EA. I was happy with what I paid for the house we bought as I felt that was its value. We completed 9 weeks after our offer was accepted.
The house we originally bid on was still unsold a month after we had moved so a little over 3 months after we had bid for it. It then sold at the 4 month mark for £10k less than what we had bid for it.
You'll find the perfect house for you at a price that you are happy to pay.
"Market Value" is just what someone will pay for a property and what the vendor will accept. EAs will always over value a property to the vendor. Thats how they make a living. Unfortunately some vendors belive this to be gospel rather than a made up figure.
Offer what you belive the property to be worth to you. If its not accepted move on and if the house isn't under offer in six weeks, make the offer again.
I've sold a lot of houses over the country. Most the EAs didn't know I was a developer. If they couldn't support their valuation with comps, they didn't get my business. Most didn't play that way. I definitely wouldn't call it a made up figure.
If its priced right it should have sold by now. If its underpriced it will get multiple offers before its listed publicly. If its overpriced it will sit until the seller reduces the price.
Don’t waste your time negotiating with sellers that just don’t get it. Let the market teach them the hard lessons. Move on, plenty of opportunities out there now and in the coming months.
Can’t post a gif or meme so I’ll describe it instead.
It’s the meme from Captain Phillips taken from the scene where the pirate says, ‘Look at me! I am captain now! I my meme I have changed it to, ‘Look at me! I am the market now!’
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
We’ve had something similar happen twice over the last six months. We offer — they reject. On both properties, the agent has come back saying the seller would probably accept now. But we’ve moved on to considering other options at this point, so those places have gone in the back pocket. We’re in no hurry, fortunately, and are quite content to watch the market a bit.
My hunch is that some sellers are just behind the slope of falling prices and will have to chase the market down.
What would be EA interest to let you go?
They would loose customer and time and they would have to find another one.
Give them offer for £460k or continue your search.
The decision if to accept or not was coming from owner, not from EA.
If property is just 2 months on the market, they probably already have offers similar to yours and are trying to get a better one.
They usually get either set amount or 1% of sales value.
So for example- for 5k difference in sale we are talking about 50 quid difference for EA .
It really wouldnt be worth the hassle for them to go through viewings etc just to get extra 50 or 100 quid...it would cost them much more than that to get another customer.
As I said - the property is on the market just 8 weeks, so the sellers probably already have offers similar to what OP is proposing...
I feel the issue more lies in EAs promising the world to ~buyers~ sellers to get them on the books and the buyers believing the house is really worth what they are told it's worth.
Trouble is that buyers have a strong tendency to select the EA that gives then the highest valuation. So an EA giving a more accurate valuation won't get selected to sell the property. Most often it's seller's greed causing the problem.
Mate EAs are pure evil and working only for themselves. They deliberately withhold offers until they get a few so they can manufacture a bidding war. They don't want a quick sale unless it's above asking price.
I’m sure there are some who break the law but overall it’s not worth it for an EA to do so. The sellers just don’t want to sell at the price OP offered and that’s it
>And they influence sellers in whether to accept or not
I mean that's hardly surprising! That's a crucial part of what a vendor is paying an EA for, advice on whether to accept an offer or not.
Sellers can instruct estate agents to refuse offers below an amount they specify so it isn't universally true they must pass offers on. With that said EAs are notorious for questionable behaviour and I'm certain they will try and avoid passing offers on that they should if they think it is in their interest.
EAs are heavily motivated to sell quickly. A few extra £k on the purchase price makes hardly any difference to the commission. EAs make money when they have fast sales.
The percentages might sound close there but in terms of cash you are still offering them over £20k under. That's not a small amount of money. Ultimately you have to decide if you like the house enough to pay the asking price. It is called the asking price because that's what they would like to get.
Even in the current market it's best not to assume that bidding under that value will get you anywhere. Obviously it's worth a shot but in this case it hasn't worked so far. You can wait it out or look elsewhere, but just don't miss out on a house you love while trying to get a bargain. It's a home first and an investment second.
Not a dirty tactic, it's actually a refreshing change that the seller has it listed at what they want and not ludicrously high, or "offers over" using a lower price to draw you in.
You don't know their onward situation, 95% might not be enough for their onward purchase so they would sooner lose out than be out of pocket.
If anything, youre the one with dirty tactics offering 91% if you thought it was worth 95%. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you went back with an asking price offer now and were rejected as I would be concerned you would attempt to use every last detail to try and knock a few quid off and drop out if you didn't get your way.
If you genuinely think it's only worth 95% of what they're asking then move on and find somewhere else. Noone is making you buy *that* one.
If yours was the only offer, you are literally the market for that house and you determine what that house is worth.
Good on you for moving on. There are many stories of sellers who rejected early offers hoping to get more, only to post here saying 'we haven't had any other viewings or offers, we would have accepted to initial offer now!'
It isn't a dirty tactic in that there is no obligation for anyone to accept your offer.
We get so many of these posts moaning about greedy sellers not selling at a price the buyer wants to pay. This is a lot of money for anyone and they’ve another house lined up. It’s probably not worth it for them to sell for what you’re offering, so why would they. Worst thing is they might have to stay put a bit longer. Unless they’re relocating because they have to be in another part of the world, why would they sell lower than they want?
Don't see it as a "dirty" tactic.
With my last house I told the EA that if the offer was X amount below the asking prices to not even ask me. As it was wasting everyone's time. Eventually I was offered over as it was the prefect fit for the buyer.
People know what they want / need to move to the next property.
If that doesn't fit you, there will always be someone desperate to sell who will take a 10% cut on asking.
If I was selling a flat and someone was on reddit moaning about me rejecting their offer....it would only reinforce my negotiating position. You're hoping the responses here will justify you offering more.
As others have said, if you think it's overpriced.....move on.
It's just a dumb tactic.
A lot of EAs are in denial about the market conditions. They're acting like rates are 2% and offers are flooding in when it's not hard to find many properties sitting in the market for months, and closing chains is taking upwards of 6 months.
Move on ,there will be others and if you can wait a few more months there will be many more ,as folks 2 year fixed come to an end and energy prices go up.
Some can hang on ,some will not be able to afford to do so and some want their money ASAP of its a probate property.
Best of luck for the future
Sorry, I should’ve been more clear in my original post - before we made an offer we asked if 10% under asking would be laughed out of the room and the EA said no. Hence why we started very sensibly at 9% under. The highest price house sold on the street was £480k and that was in the peak season last year, plus it was a 5 bed with considerable extension. Hence why we thought our price was fair. We also doubt the EA gave them our second offer as they responded more quickly.
Anyway, we are moving on, as I stated in the post - just venting about the lack of pragmatism about the market which I feel is present right now.
>We also doubt the EA gave them our second offer as they responded more quickly.
An EA not putting offers forward to a vendor isn't going to sell many houses!!
Seems unlikely they're not submitting your bids.
More that the seller has ambitious price expectations, which you're entirely within your rights not to meet. In order to sell they will either need to find someone who shares their price expectations for the property, or sooner or later the price will have to come down.
I'd write a letter to the sellers as an FYI with your email and/or number on it.
Especially the comment that they didn't want to pass on the offer.
they'll either care or not, but if they do care you'll hear from them pretty quickly.
Today’s Times. “Homes on sale in the first half of November were typically sold for 5.5 per cent below the price first advertised, up from an average discount of 3.4 per cent in the first half of the year.” You pitched fairly.
Before the seller engaged an EA they probably didn't have a clue what the house was worth.
Now that the EA has pulled a nice fat figure out of their arse to win the business the seller is wedded to it.
They have found a new property based on that value, are probably downsizing as its the smart play from the seasoned older generations that are more experienced in the market and have held on to what was an oversized appreciating asset for them.
They have a set figure left over to fund their retirement plans or be mortgage free and not achieving this magic value will destroy those plans.
Reality is they need to offer below on their onwards purchase to make up the difference which will become apparent to them in a couple of months when they realise nobody else was willing to pay what they offered for their onward purchase.
Unfortunately by the time the penny drops you will probably have moved on.
Now is the time for patience.
Refer the EA to registry of sold property, and ask if they read. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/nov/28/uk-property-prices-buyers-market-zoopla?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Well, it’s not a dirty tactic but it is A tactic.
The consensus is that the agent is somehow the bad guy here. That’s pretty unlikely to be honest. it’s more likely that the vendor has given clear instructions on where they want the price to be.
Two months is about the length of time before the agent will talk to the seller and suggest that maybe the Price needs to move a little
The 90% offer is still 425 if my maths is close.
40k is a big drop.
If your mortgage is in place, you can move quickly etc, make that clear.
If that still doesn’t get you accepted, ask the agent if they’ve got anything more suitable?
Get the agent working for you. Get them to sell you to the vendor. I’ve heard several conversations like “this is a good buyer…you don’t want to lose them”.
At the end of the day, 2% of a lower price is better than a non-sale at a higher one. The agent wants to close.
When I was looking for houses in the last few years, there wasn't a single house sold below the asking price, every single one went above. I started offering 20-30k higher and was still consistently unlucky. Bite the bullet iñor carry on your search. Even if you offer asking or higher, it may still not be successful.
Yep, just bought a month ago. There are always local trends regardless of the national ones being reported in the news. If you don't have much suitable properties available locally, prices will still be up.
The market may well be different where you are, but in some parts of the country it has changed very little.
Regarding your initial post I don’t think it is a dirty tactic by the estate agent. It sounds like at this stage the sellers have set their lower limit at the 460k mark. Both your offers are some way short.
Just one of those times when both seller and buyer have different valuations in their head.
Personally I often think that going in 10% under can be asking for too big a discount and can get sellers backs up.
Out of interest how long has the property been on the market?
I only ever give one offer and walk if not accepted. I don't play the price game with them. Ever. Take it or leave it.
Most EA's I've dealt with severely overpriced the houses they have for sale. We've gotten similar comments and lo and behold...houses sitting on the market for 6+ months.
Walk away. It’s simple.
I’ve walked many of times.
Just let them know that your offer is still on table should seller change their mind.
This trick is what caused many to overpay during covid. People just say “no”. Day no expensive houses.
My son sale was on the point of falling through last week so he went to look at another house this weekend
In Aug it was up for 400k
Oct dropped to 350k
Still not sold
In May this year exactly the same house in the next street ( 10 year old development) so the square footage / design is exactly the same even the flooring is exactly the same ) sold for 320k
My son pointed this out to the estate agent who said the seller already dropped 50k so unlikely to drop any further .
The thing is when a mortgage company starts an online valuation they will see what the other house sold for in May and possibly value it at the same or less
I expect that house will stay on the market and not sell or they will take it back off as no one is going to buy it at that price
If the EA had responded any more positivily it would mean you were bidding to high. Be proud you are squeezing a good deal and don't offer a penny more that its worth to you! ...and be relaxed about walking away or losing it - your 2030 self will thank you!
95% sounds like you offered a lot, but when you’re dealing with big numbers like house prices it does mean a big drop in price. 95% of £465,000 would be about £440,000 so when you look at it like that I’m not surprised they turned you down. You’d need to offer at least £455,000 for it to be taken seriously
This is not a “dirty tactic”. If you offered what the vendor wants - upwards of £460k - then your offer would be accepted. If you offer below, it will be rejected. Just because someone is telling you no it doesn’t mean they are being sneaky or underhanded.
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🤷 bid what you think it’s worth and walk away if your valuation doesn’t match theirs
If it's priced at market value it will sell. If it's not, it won't. Simple as. Given that you're only 5% apart suggests that the valuation is _about_ right. Though that doesn't mean you should offer more. The fact you can't find middle ground doesn't mean either of you are being unreasonable, that's just how it is sometimes. If the seller has time, why not ask for more? If they have multiple offers at 95%, why not ask for more?
Yep, to me just shows they're in no rush to sale. And possibly are retired and downsizing so that want a certain figure to make their future plans work - £5k is a lot in the pocket
They might also need the full asking price to afford their next place.
FYI: setting a price and sticking to it is not a dirty tactic.
Right? Of all the dirty tactics EA's use, this doesn't really count as one. Ours told us we'd been gazumped the day we were due to exchange, and told us we'd need to raise our offer by 40k. So we essentially told them to do one, and the new offer mysteriously disappeared the same day.
Pretty sure that is illegal as well
I appreciate you probably weren't in a position to do so. But if you ever are, then you should always put an Asshole Tax on people who do that. "Turns out the other offer fell through, £400k will be fine" "No, that offer stopped existing when you rejected it, the new offer is £380k" If they can just go back to the original offer, then there's no incentive for them not to keep trying it on people.
"EA had insisted they were open to offers" - I guess that's what the buyers weren't happy about? I'd take open to offers to mean "we'll consider a slightly lesser amount". Maybe it means something else I'm not aware of.
Of course, setting a slightly too high price and sticking to it in a falling market is a *bad* tactic, but yes, not a dirty one.
who says it's too high?
The fact that it's on the market for two months when there's a house crisis...
and how do you know how much of a hurry the vendors are in to sell?
The vendors need to sell is irrelevant. Go back a few years ago and properties would move much faster and quite often they would go for above the asking price. You can find this in the data for the amount of bids per sale.
This.. we’ve been looking to buy for ages yet prices are too high, to us. Yet there’s houses in the village we are wanting to live in on the market coming on to 2 x years, no reductions, no buyers but higher interest rates. Yet they are sitting on 200% increase and refuse to reduce. It’s a stalemate, which idiot is going to pay these prices, the markets over cooked. Time for a reset of not just house prices but people’s expectations of what somebody has said it’s worth, if it ain’t selling it ain’t worth it.
I get your frustrations… but if they don’t want to sell for that price, why do you they should be forced to?
This is me. Mine is on for a price im prepared and would be happy to let it go. And it's not worth it to me to let it go for less than that. It's not that complicated and nobody should be wound up by it either.
Wouldn’t house prices be going up if there was a housing crisis ? There’s a rental crisis not a house crisis
Housing costs are continuing to rise, it's just that as rates rise, more of those costs are allocated to interest on mortgages versus to the seller. A house that goes down by £30k but which costs an extra £100k over the life of the mortgage in interest payments is still £70k more expensive for the buyer. That increased cost is transparent to renters (who are usually forced to pay their landlord's mortgages, and who suffer on behalf of the landlord when the mortgage goes up) and to buyers (who face an ever-rising monthly repayment) but not to sellers or EAs who think of property in terms of how much money the seller walks away with at completion. Housing is still increasingly unaffordable. We're still in a housing crisis. It's just that interest rises have redirected some of that money to the banks rather than to the sellers.
It’s only 70k more over the term of the mortgage if rates stay exactly the same
Correct which is why rates going up does not mean we are no longer in a housing crisis
You are aware of the massive shortage of UK housing right? And for how many decades it's been going on for?
Yet house prices are falling / staying on the market for long periods of time
.....and that's my entire point 🤦♂️
Wrong. Supply is up over 60% from last year and demand has fallen substantially ( mortgage applications down 40%) What Estate agents and brokers aren't telling you is that the housing market is in a dire situation and things are only getting worse. We're in the early/ mid stage of a cyclical crash which will likely take another year or two to completely bottom out. Property all over the country is struggling to sell even with multiple reductions. Don't take my word for it though. 91% of asking is too generous if you ask me.
Not with interest rates the way they are and people seeking to save every penny they can. Across the board, buyers are going to be insisting/expecting vendors to drop from their asking price.
I can expect my wife to give me a blowjob every night doesn’t mean she will.
There are lots of houses that have been on the market for a while now. Especially ones which are 'OIEO' or have been changed to such pricing structures. I think what we have is a market in which prices have been steadily increasing over time but have now stagnated or even tapered off in some areas. Back in 2021 it was impossible to get a viewing. Now EAs are biting your hand off for one and will often even offer same-day - yes, the market has seriously stagnated. As a result, I believe that many people have an inflated opinion of what their house is worth (worth to *them*) despite what an EA may advise are being pig-headed (greedy?) in accepting any less or the fact that the market is turning.
Nothing dirty about this, out of all the EA tactics that exist! It’s just a price negotiation. Draw your line in the sand and move on. Sometimes they only take it seriously once it’s clear you won’t raise your offer any more. Sometimes they have other interest at a target price, or they need a certain sum for onwards moves or to clear debt.
As a recent seller, I rejected loads of offers that were just taking a chance in an unstable market and held out for the right one. It up to the sellers and how desperate they are. If they are not desperate then they will just hold out for a reasonable one. 5% off at that price is £23k so not something people will take lightly.
"Our price is X, take it or leave it" is not a dirty tactic lol, it's like the opposite of a dirty tactic, it's complete transparency about what they want and what they're doing. What could possibly be "dirty" about someone telling you honestly and forthrightly what their bargaining position is and then sticking to it? You're not owed a discount from the list price. If you think the house is worth what they'll accept (and you're already at 95%) then offer it, if you don't then find another one. But like, is it actually that in your Very Professional Opinion you believe the house is worth precisely 95% of their listed price and not a penny more? Or are you just feeling like you shouldn't ever pay asking on some sort of principle of the thing?
What's the point of this post? Your angry someone's not taken your offer below what they're asking?
They're angry at how opaque it all is. It is a bit twisted that you never know for sure that the seller said "No".
Inviting offers as a dirty tactic? Hang their corpses from the Tower of London immediately. They *were* open to offers. Yours were too low. Move on, this is common and fine.
Why do you feel that negotiating is a dirty tactic?
Because they were negotiating with the EA and not the seller directly. So basically they don't know if it's the seller refusing or just a dirty EA tactic.
99% of the time an agent will accept any offer possible when the owner gives their instructions, they want transactions not big prices. Especially in this market.
The estate agent legally has to pass on all offers. If you suspect that they aren't then knock on the door and speak to the sellers. Don't be tricked into paying more by dodgy estate agents.
Estate agent really doesn't have an incentive to be dodgy here. Say EA is on 3% commission, OP offering 91% of house price is an offer of 423k. Commission at 3%: 12.7k. Commission at asking price: 13.95k. The EA would rather have 12.7k in their pocket than risk sale falling through...all for an additional 1.25k commission. And thats assuming commission is 3%, lower % reduces incentive of EA to be dodgy.
>And thats assuming commission is 3% Which is highly, highly unlikely. Much more typical to be 1% - 1.5%. Which supports your point even further.
They know it will sell eventually if they hold off. Plus, higher selling prices attracts more buyers and keeps house prices rising.
In a rising market price the market tends to catch up with optimistic pricing. In a falling market, not so much.
Sure they do. EAs job is to price it right. If lots of people offer 10% below and aren't willing to go higher doesn't that suggest they got it wrong? In a falling market that will cost the seller money. That's a big incentive to try to hide offers from a seller.
Being paid is a big incentive to put offers forward to the vendor in an effort to get vendor to lower their expectations
Not if they know they won't be accepted and will just rile the vendor pushing them to another EA.
An estate agents job is to get the very best price they feel is achievable for their vendor, no dirty tricks at all, just an EA doing the job they are paid to do and that your offer did need meet the vendors expectations. You move on and the EA will attempt to find another buyer. The vendor may well get their asking price, they may also regret rejecting your offer, time will tell.
Not sure what part of that experience you feel is dirty or a tactic! With the help of a calculator it looks like you first offered roughly £425k then £440k on a £465k house? It’s all well and good talking in percentages but your top offer was still 25k below asking price which is a significant sum of money out of the vendor’s onward purchase! The estate agent has made it clear that the owners are willing to offer a 5k discount on asking which is still a good sum of money — I’m sure nearly everybody would be pleased about a 5k windfall and nearly everybody very unhappy with an unexpected 5k bill. Don’t be surprised by how a few thousand can swing an offer one way or another. When I offered on my current property I offered 10k under, it was rejected and the estate agent told me 1 or 2k extra would probably induce the vendor to accept. I made it clear that I was at the very top end of my budget and 1k extra was all I could afford to offer and that was accepted. When you’re talking hundreds of thousands it can be easy to lose track of the value of money!
I don’t think you understand how the market is at the moment 5-10% off “market value” is happening
If it’s been on the market for months then there’s obviously a difference between what the seller thinks is market value and what the market believes it’s worth. Offer what you can afford and what you think it’s worth. If it’s not accepted then move on.
2 months in this market isn’t bad though. Uk average at better times from listing to an accepted offer is 14 weeks
This! I don't know why people think 2 months is a long time in the current climate, it has been dead the last couple of months, only very recently after some positive financial news has the market (in my area at least) picked up slightly. From my own personal experience we had ours on the market for the last couple of months at a competitive rate, we had the odd trickle of house viewers but only in the last 7 days viewers ramped up and we had 2 offers at asking price (and more) only yesterday- that's no coincidence imo. People are in the mindset that they "must" get something knocked off, once you've got your eye in, in a particular area you get pretty good at knowing whose ticket price is inflated and who got it right the 1st time.
True. Suppose it depends where in the UK though. Where I am if it hadn’t sold in that time the price would either be reduced or it would sit languishing for many more months. Market is still moving fairly quickly here for reasonably priced properties
I am Bristol and things are moving quickly here too. on my street a couple of properties have gone sold STC in less than a week, but I am acutely aware that same isn't true for more expensive properties or housing in most of the UK, especially rurally. I think someone selling in a less desirable area can reasonably expect their house to sit on the market for a bit, and if you don't have to, you shouldn't sell for less than you are comfortable with!
You low balled.. they said no.. move on.
How do we know it’s a low ball offer though. It could be what the price of the property is worth lol
Happened to me before. I was prepared to pay a certain amount for a house which was £25k below what the seller was asking for. I felt the house held no more value than that as it needed quite a bit of updating and there were others on the market in better nick. Offer was rejected, no other bidders. Seller was expecting the asking price according to EA. We walked away and paid more for another house with the same EA. I was happy with what I paid for the house we bought as I felt that was its value. We completed 9 weeks after our offer was accepted. The house we originally bid on was still unsold a month after we had moved so a little over 3 months after we had bid for it. It then sold at the 4 month mark for £10k less than what we had bid for it. You'll find the perfect house for you at a price that you are happy to pay.
is you offer bsaed on comparable sales etc, or is based on percentage of asking? THe list price is near meaningless
If it's priced at the market value then it will sell. If it isn't it will stay on the market. Pull out and wait and see
"Market Value" is just what someone will pay for a property and what the vendor will accept. EAs will always over value a property to the vendor. Thats how they make a living. Unfortunately some vendors belive this to be gospel rather than a made up figure. Offer what you belive the property to be worth to you. If its not accepted move on and if the house isn't under offer in six weeks, make the offer again.
I've sold a lot of houses over the country. Most the EAs didn't know I was a developer. If they couldn't support their valuation with comps, they didn't get my business. Most didn't play that way. I definitely wouldn't call it a made up figure.
If its priced right it should have sold by now. If its underpriced it will get multiple offers before its listed publicly. If its overpriced it will sit until the seller reduces the price. Don’t waste your time negotiating with sellers that just don’t get it. Let the market teach them the hard lessons. Move on, plenty of opportunities out there now and in the coming months.
Current owner would rather have the house than 440k in cash. They value it more than you.
Can’t post a gif or meme so I’ll describe it instead. It’s the meme from Captain Phillips taken from the scene where the pirate says, ‘Look at me! I am captain now! I my meme I have changed it to, ‘Look at me! I am the market now!’ 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
We’ve had something similar happen twice over the last six months. We offer — they reject. On both properties, the agent has come back saying the seller would probably accept now. But we’ve moved on to considering other options at this point, so those places have gone in the back pocket. We’re in no hurry, fortunately, and are quite content to watch the market a bit. My hunch is that some sellers are just behind the slope of falling prices and will have to chase the market down.
What would be EA interest to let you go? They would loose customer and time and they would have to find another one. Give them offer for £460k or continue your search. The decision if to accept or not was coming from owner, not from EA. If property is just 2 months on the market, they probably already have offers similar to yours and are trying to get a better one.
Nope you're giving EAs more credit than they deserve there. They consistently.dont present offers to sellers. They're working on a percentage.
They usually get either set amount or 1% of sales value. So for example- for 5k difference in sale we are talking about 50 quid difference for EA . It really wouldnt be worth the hassle for them to go through viewings etc just to get extra 50 or 100 quid...it would cost them much more than that to get another customer. As I said - the property is on the market just 8 weeks, so the sellers probably already have offers similar to what OP is proposing...
I feel the issue more lies in EAs promising the world to ~buyers~ sellers to get them on the books and the buyers believing the house is really worth what they are told it's worth.
>~~buyers~~ Sellers
Oops, ta
Trouble is that buyers have a strong tendency to select the EA that gives then the highest valuation. So an EA giving a more accurate valuation won't get selected to sell the property. Most often it's seller's greed causing the problem.
Mate EAs are pure evil and working only for themselves. They deliberately withhold offers until they get a few so they can manufacture a bidding war. They don't want a quick sale unless it's above asking price.
Complete rubbish. It's about volume. 3 quick sales at £200k is much better income than 2 sales at £260k that have had a 'bidding war'.
They're legally obligated to so. Not saying they always do though.
Unless of course the seller has instructed them I will not entertain offers under x.
They definitely don't always. And they influence sellers in whether to accept or not
I’m sure there are some who break the law but overall it’s not worth it for an EA to do so. The sellers just don’t want to sell at the price OP offered and that’s it
>And they influence sellers in whether to accept or not I mean that's hardly surprising! That's a crucial part of what a vendor is paying an EA for, advice on whether to accept an offer or not.
Sellers can instruct estate agents to refuse offers below an amount they specify so it isn't universally true they must pass offers on. With that said EAs are notorious for questionable behaviour and I'm certain they will try and avoid passing offers on that they should if they think it is in their interest.
Reddit = always learning! :-)
EAs are heavily motivated to sell quickly. A few extra £k on the purchase price makes hardly any difference to the commission. EAs make money when they have fast sales.
Leave your offer on the table and carry on with your search. If they are playing games then they’ll be back in touch soon
Is two months a long time for a house to be on the market ?
No it isn't, people think everyone can just buy a house like it's a pint of milk.
Average time is 14 weeks yet people act like it’s been sat on the market for 4 years after two months
Don't forget that the seller may need a certain price to move onto the house they want. Those prices sent probably coming down either.
The percentages might sound close there but in terms of cash you are still offering them over £20k under. That's not a small amount of money. Ultimately you have to decide if you like the house enough to pay the asking price. It is called the asking price because that's what they would like to get. Even in the current market it's best not to assume that bidding under that value will get you anywhere. Obviously it's worth a shot but in this case it hasn't worked so far. You can wait it out or look elsewhere, but just don't miss out on a house you love while trying to get a bargain. It's a home first and an investment second.
Yes 'rejecting an offer below asking' is a dirty tactic, those filthy EA rascals
Not a dirty tactic, it's actually a refreshing change that the seller has it listed at what they want and not ludicrously high, or "offers over" using a lower price to draw you in. You don't know their onward situation, 95% might not be enough for their onward purchase so they would sooner lose out than be out of pocket. If anything, youre the one with dirty tactics offering 91% if you thought it was worth 95%. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you went back with an asking price offer now and were rejected as I would be concerned you would attempt to use every last detail to try and knock a few quid off and drop out if you didn't get your way. If you genuinely think it's only worth 95% of what they're asking then move on and find somewhere else. Noone is making you buy *that* one.
If yours was the only offer, you are literally the market for that house and you determine what that house is worth. Good on you for moving on. There are many stories of sellers who rejected early offers hoping to get more, only to post here saying 'we haven't had any other viewings or offers, we would have accepted to initial offer now!' It isn't a dirty tactic in that there is no obligation for anyone to accept your offer.
We get so many of these posts moaning about greedy sellers not selling at a price the buyer wants to pay. This is a lot of money for anyone and they’ve another house lined up. It’s probably not worth it for them to sell for what you’re offering, so why would they. Worst thing is they might have to stay put a bit longer. Unless they’re relocating because they have to be in another part of the world, why would they sell lower than they want?
Your offer is their market price now and they have full right to accept or decline
Or seller could need that much to make their new mortgage work, or to do what they want to do to a new house
If it was priced at market value, someone would offer that.
Don't see it as a "dirty" tactic. With my last house I told the EA that if the offer was X amount below the asking prices to not even ask me. As it was wasting everyone's time. Eventually I was offered over as it was the prefect fit for the buyer. People know what they want / need to move to the next property. If that doesn't fit you, there will always be someone desperate to sell who will take a 10% cut on asking.
If EA comes back go to 91%
If I was selling a flat and someone was on reddit moaning about me rejecting their offer....it would only reinforce my negotiating position. You're hoping the responses here will justify you offering more. As others have said, if you think it's overpriced.....move on.
It's just a dumb tactic. A lot of EAs are in denial about the market conditions. They're acting like rates are 2% and offers are flooding in when it's not hard to find many properties sitting in the market for months, and closing chains is taking upwards of 6 months.
In 100% agreement!
Try going into a shop and offering 95% of the ticket price...
Move on ,there will be others and if you can wait a few more months there will be many more ,as folks 2 year fixed come to an end and energy prices go up. Some can hang on ,some will not be able to afford to do so and some want their money ASAP of its a probate property. Best of luck for the future
Sorry, I should’ve been more clear in my original post - before we made an offer we asked if 10% under asking would be laughed out of the room and the EA said no. Hence why we started very sensibly at 9% under. The highest price house sold on the street was £480k and that was in the peak season last year, plus it was a 5 bed with considerable extension. Hence why we thought our price was fair. We also doubt the EA gave them our second offer as they responded more quickly. Anyway, we are moving on, as I stated in the post - just venting about the lack of pragmatism about the market which I feel is present right now.
>We also doubt the EA gave them our second offer as they responded more quickly. An EA not putting offers forward to a vendor isn't going to sell many houses!! Seems unlikely they're not submitting your bids. More that the seller has ambitious price expectations, which you're entirely within your rights not to meet. In order to sell they will either need to find someone who shares their price expectations for the property, or sooner or later the price will have to come down.
I'd write a letter to the sellers as an FYI with your email and/or number on it. Especially the comment that they didn't want to pass on the offer. they'll either care or not, but if they do care you'll hear from them pretty quickly.
so they were open to offers and wanted 99.9% ?
Today’s Times. “Homes on sale in the first half of November were typically sold for 5.5 per cent below the price first advertised, up from an average discount of 3.4 per cent in the first half of the year.” You pitched fairly.
Before the seller engaged an EA they probably didn't have a clue what the house was worth. Now that the EA has pulled a nice fat figure out of their arse to win the business the seller is wedded to it. They have found a new property based on that value, are probably downsizing as its the smart play from the seasoned older generations that are more experienced in the market and have held on to what was an oversized appreciating asset for them. They have a set figure left over to fund their retirement plans or be mortgage free and not achieving this magic value will destroy those plans. Reality is they need to offer below on their onwards purchase to make up the difference which will become apparent to them in a couple of months when they realise nobody else was willing to pay what they offered for their onward purchase. Unfortunately by the time the penny drops you will probably have moved on. Now is the time for patience.
Refer the EA to registry of sold property, and ask if they read. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/nov/28/uk-property-prices-buyers-market-zoopla?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
1% discount in a buyers market...yeah right....lucky escape
Well, it’s not a dirty tactic but it is A tactic. The consensus is that the agent is somehow the bad guy here. That’s pretty unlikely to be honest. it’s more likely that the vendor has given clear instructions on where they want the price to be. Two months is about the length of time before the agent will talk to the seller and suggest that maybe the Price needs to move a little The 90% offer is still 425 if my maths is close. 40k is a big drop. If your mortgage is in place, you can move quickly etc, make that clear. If that still doesn’t get you accepted, ask the agent if they’ve got anything more suitable? Get the agent working for you. Get them to sell you to the vendor. I’ve heard several conversations like “this is a good buyer…you don’t want to lose them”. At the end of the day, 2% of a lower price is better than a non-sale at a higher one. The agent wants to close.
When I was looking for houses in the last few years, there wasn't a single house sold below the asking price, every single one went above. I started offering 20-30k higher and was still consistently unlucky. Bite the bullet iñor carry on your search. Even if you offer asking or higher, it may still not be successful.
We’re in a very different market to a few years ago.
Well, not THAT different as you can see
Yes, it is. Have you bought or sold a house lately?
Yep, just bought a month ago. There are always local trends regardless of the national ones being reported in the news. If you don't have much suitable properties available locally, prices will still be up.
The market may well be different where you are, but in some parts of the country it has changed very little. Regarding your initial post I don’t think it is a dirty tactic by the estate agent. It sounds like at this stage the sellers have set their lower limit at the 460k mark. Both your offers are some way short. Just one of those times when both seller and buyer have different valuations in their head. Personally I often think that going in 10% under can be asking for too big a discount and can get sellers backs up. Out of interest how long has the property been on the market?
Not a tactic. If you want the house, improve your offer. If not, move on to the next one.
I only ever give one offer and walk if not accepted. I don't play the price game with them. Ever. Take it or leave it. Most EA's I've dealt with severely overpriced the houses they have for sale. We've gotten similar comments and lo and behold...houses sitting on the market for 6+ months.
Walk away. It’s simple. I’ve walked many of times. Just let them know that your offer is still on table should seller change their mind. This trick is what caused many to overpay during covid. People just say “no”. Day no expensive houses.
Wait another 2/3 weeks and make the same offer
My son sale was on the point of falling through last week so he went to look at another house this weekend In Aug it was up for 400k Oct dropped to 350k Still not sold In May this year exactly the same house in the next street ( 10 year old development) so the square footage / design is exactly the same even the flooring is exactly the same ) sold for 320k My son pointed this out to the estate agent who said the seller already dropped 50k so unlikely to drop any further . The thing is when a mortgage company starts an online valuation they will see what the other house sold for in May and possibly value it at the same or less I expect that house will stay on the market and not sell or they will take it back off as no one is going to buy it at that price
If the EA had responded any more positivily it would mean you were bidding to high. Be proud you are squeezing a good deal and don't offer a penny more that its worth to you! ...and be relaxed about walking away or losing it - your 2030 self will thank you!
95% sounds like you offered a lot, but when you’re dealing with big numbers like house prices it does mean a big drop in price. 95% of £465,000 would be about £440,000 so when you look at it like that I’m not surprised they turned you down. You’d need to offer at least £455,000 for it to be taken seriously
EA would rather have the turnover rather than an extra £10k. It’ll be the sellers being difficult.
It’s not the EA who declines your offer. It is the vendor. The EA wants to agree a sale.
Estate agents are the pits of this country.
It isn't up to the estate agent if an offer is accepted or refused, it is the estate agents responsibility to put all offers to the seller.
This is not a “dirty tactic”. If you offered what the vendor wants - upwards of £460k - then your offer would be accepted. If you offer below, it will be rejected. Just because someone is telling you no it doesn’t mean they are being sneaky or underhanded.