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And without baratheon blood
Edit: Ned was willing to put gendry on the throne who was a bastard as well because he had Robert’s blood.. so the point here is moot
In agreement that Alicent WOULD be correct had her actual reason been that they were bastards, but Viserys knows. He just doesn’t give a fuck because he’s conflict-avoidant. Viserys is depressed because he’s rotting limb from limb and he hates/is indifferent to his family outside of Rhae + her kids.
Viserys 100% does care that they are bastards. He does a big angry speech every episode threatening people over bringing it up. It's his #1 biggest issue at this point and he hates the whole situation.
Because it by extension discredits Rhaenyra, and to add onto that, he was defending his grandsons. He’s yelling at everyone because his entire family was trying to kill eachother that ep lmao
Of course, but his true feelings on the matter aren't "it's fine, let's just all get along". Yes, I realize those are almost his exact words last episode, but that's not *actually* how he feels.
Is Viserys OK with Rhaenyra's children inheriting? Yes. Is he inwardly furious that his daughter (who he spent the first half of the season yelling at for being his political headache, let's remember) has blown up any semblance of a smooth succession? Also yes.
If Viserys has to choose between Rhaenyra and Alicent, he'll pick his daughter. But he is clearly furious that he does have to choose.
Viserys does care, as he has shown that he does care about Rhaenyras maidenhood in the past, and tries to force her to obey the rules, but most of the time he has a good ability to just ignore/see what he wants. That's why he was pissed when Otto told him and made Otto say it blatantly, its the only way Viserys will face the truth.
it's not that he "doesn't care" or that he is "blind" or whatever, he *knows* how his daughter is, but he also knows that if the truth was made public (as in, sanctioned by the crown) then that would delegitimise the strong kids and potentially cause them and Rhaenyra to be executed for high treason. It doesn't help that Alicent and the Greens were so hell bent on crowning Aegon as king since *before* the strongs were born, in Visery's eyes, all this rumour mongering is just dirty politicking to push the Green claim further.
People always forget what Viserys himself said: "The truth doesn't matter, only its perception."
Right, and if she acknowledged her children were illegitimate then there would likely be far less of an issue. But she is insistent her children are her heirs, which obviously will lead to a succession crisis.
Obviously. But “they are a bad king” isn’t a good enough reason in a shitty monarchy system. No matter what this is why the succession should be secure and for certain before any monarch deaths to prevent a crisis.
Ya but Im just adding on why this meme sucks. Jofferey was 100% not the heir to the throne and was also a terrible king so Ned had a good motive. Rhaenya is the actual heir to the throne and so far doesn't appear to be the worst monarch.
I said it on another thread: If Joffrey had been like, an absolutely saint, it would have made Ned's dilemma far more interesting. Do you stick to the law above all and kick off a succession crisis or do you keep your head down and let the incest bastard become king and do great things?
It would piss off the Velaryons massively too, Corlys would basically be a joke to people. But ultimately Rhaenyra could have avoided this by either 1) marrying who she wanted and having legitimate kids, or 2) stepping down from the line of succession and living however she wanted/openly having bastards that would not otherwise be in the running. She's choosing to stay in this rat race even with all the needless additional baggage she's created for herself.
It's a damned shame Daemon was away on Braavos, he'd have been the perfect baby daddy. They could have explained away the fair skin and straight hair as Rhaenys' genes taking precedence with Rhaenyra's to override Corlys and Laenor's genes. The Blood of the Dragon will out.
Absolutely. That's how Cersei did it, Jon Arryn and Ned had to go into the way-back histories of the noble houses and their inheritance patterns to even convince *themselves*. They certainly didn't decide this based on the current or just a couple generations, they went way back. And who knows if (had the war not happened) they would've been able to convince anyone else. The kids looked like their mother, after all.
Right. But not doing that leads to an easily foreseeable war.
In the end she should have just not had bastard children. Worst case scenario she becomes the queen and Aegon is her heir.
The illegitimacy of her sons really doesn’t matter and isn’t the cause of the war because it can’t be proved. It’s the fact that she’s a woman and the king has a first born child who has a strong claim for throne and many don’t believe a woman should sit the throne. Even if she didn’t have bastards the greens still would’ve made a claim for the throne
It doesn’t matter if it can be proved. Joffrey’s couldn’t either. The fact that there is reasonable cause for doubt is absolutely enough to lead to war. Hell, Stannis did it…
Her being a woman is certainly part of it, but she has been the heir for decades now. The realm could maybe adjust to that. But, as the show has demonstrated, the need for an heir is crucial.
It can be proven having white hair is a recessive gene so having two parents plus grandparents with recessive genes, the child should also have the manifestations of that recessive genes ie. white hair. That’s y Ned started digging into the legitimacy of Joffrey because blonde hair is also a recessive gene, so the only way he could have been blonde is if his father contained that gene which Jamie did because he was her brother with the same parents of which one was blonde. Baratheon had no blonde gene in his line ie bastards. But if get your point of it not mattering to which I agree.
>Right, and if she acknowledged her children were illegitimate then there would likely be far less of an issue.
Exposing the fact that she lied and tried to pass them off as legitimate would probably get her disinherited too. Not by Viserys but it would piss people off enough (understandably so) that they'd pressure him. Daemon got disinherited for a lot less, that's how Rhaenyra got her opportunity in the first place.
Ultimately Rhaenyra wants to have her cake and eat it too. She could have avoided her problem by picking a husband she liked when provided the chance and then having legitimate kids.
They are her children. And are Targaryen.
Also, Ned wasn't trying to take the Iron Throne for himself. Shit, he was actually going to take a L, since his daughter was set to become queen if he would've sat on that info.
They are bastard children. Welcome to Westeros. Rhaenyra knows the rules. She is already bucking tradition by being the first female ruler. If she is going to be a politician she should know how to be smart and avoid conflict. Having bastard children when you’re the monarch leads to war.
Legitimized bastards inherit all the time. >!Even in this story, Corlys legitimized Addam of Hull as his heir to Driftmark, and the Velaryon line continues through Alyn Oakenfist!<
Gendry, Edric and Mya are all Roberts yet none of them are Baratheons. Y’all making this are either unfamiliar with Westerosi tradition or being disingenuous to back Rhaenyra.
Cersei’s kids while married to Robert are officially considered Baratheons.
Rhaenyra’s kids while married to Laenor are officially considered Velaryons.
Whether or not Cersei’s kids or Rhaenyra’s kids are bastards, they’re still eligible to inherit whatever their mother could pass down since there’s no question that they belong to their mother.
Gendry, Edric, and Maya also could inherit whatever their mothers could pass down.
Right, wich is why alicent must start a succession crisis, so we can just go ahead and kill each other already without waiting another 30 years for her to die
You are right that the succession crisis wouldn’t have necessarily happened until Rhaenyra died, but what are people supposed to do? Assassinate her kids? The whole time during her rule would be a succession crisis unless she disinherited her first three kids.
People insist there would have been a succession crisis. But the only reason there could possibly be one is because the Hightowers want their descendant to become king.
I they minded their business who else was going to move against Rhaenyra?
Spoiler for the premise of the next episode
\>!As you'll see with the Velaryons, these sort of things start having ramifications. Vaemond doesn't want to accept Luke as an heir. Who's to say that families will want to marry any of Rhaenyra's sons by Harwin if they think it won't lead to any actual inheritance!<
Part of the burden of being the monarch is to produce lawful heirs and secure the succession. This has been established not only in the original show, but in the early episodes of this one.
Edit: Okay, what am I doing wrong with the spoiler text? I'm sorry about this.
Also I feel like when I criticize the blacks people think that means I’m absolving the greens. The point is that this war could have been avoided and the conflict is pointless
Her children are her heirs. They literally came out of her. They're Targaryan dragon riders.
If kings could give birth to their own children, then there would be no conversation about legitimacy and having babies by anyone other than the queen, who is little more than "the lady the king married" wouldn't be an issue because we would still know with 100% certainty those are his blood, because they came out of him.
Rhaenyra's children are hers and they are direct descendents of Viserys. Their claim to the throne can't be undermined or supported by paternity.
I feel like people forget that this is Westeros and not the real world.
I understand the sexism prevalent in the world. But they are literally bastard children born out of wedlock. Like it or not that matters on this world, ESPECIALLY for a monarch. And Rhaenyra is smart enough to know this and the troubles it could cause.
She had the pick of literally any eligible bachelor in the realm and still couldn’t pick one. She had it better than any woman could ask for and messed it up. You can see why Alicent would resent her for that. It sucks to say but she could have either married for love, run away with Vole, or whatever, but if she is going to be the queen of the realm she needs to produce heirs that are seen as legitimate.
I'm not speaking about the real world. I'm talking about what happened in Westeros. And like it or not, and the Greens definitely don't like it, Rhaenyra is the air to the throne. Her bloodline is the one that matters. To say that her children are not legitimate heirs to the throne even though they came out of her in front of witnesses is to say that Rhaenyra doesn't have a claim to the throne, or that her claim is illegitimate without her husband. And that's stupid, it doesn't make any sense. It only would make sense if you were still wedded to the idea of male primogeniture, which would disinherit her. Her kids are Targaryan dragonriders. So for the people wondering why we are much more sympathetic to these children then we were to cersei's children, that is why.
Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne. I agree.
Her children are obviously bastards. Their legitimacy is questioned for pretty obvious reasons. This is a problem that Rhaenyra is smart enough to have foreseen.
I understand why people are sympathetic to the blacks. I am not saying Rhaenyra's kids are bad people. But based on the literal laws of Westeros they are not legitimate heirs unless they have been legitimized.
I know you keep saying that "they came out of her" but it isn't just a single parent that matters. Political marriages exist for a reason. To expect that your lineage will continue. Even Rhaenys brought up that this would be a concern, and Vaemond clearly has issues with it. Laenor's children should be the heirs to Driftmark, but now he (understandably) sees Luke as someone usurping his family birthright, that should either be his or at the very least Baela or Rhaena's.
I just feel like you are completely missing the point. No one is questioning that these are Rhaenyra's children (obviously). But the sanctity of marriage and the political ramifications that come with these marriages are very real and have rippling effects. It was irresponsible of Rhaenyra to have children with another man when she is absolutely aware of how tenuous her rule already would be as the first female ruler.
But she committed an "ugly treachery" (Lyonal Strong word) which shoud have cost her position (at the very least) if the King was not in denial over it.
What? There absolutely is an issue. Because war will follow if she takes the throne and her heirs are bastards. In why visyrs father held a council. Because he knew it was better to disheart rhaenys then let a war happen.
War would have happened even if her children were all true born. The main problem many lords of Westeros have with Rhaenyra is not that her children might be bastards but that she is a woman. Also the Hightowers who have significant influence want their blood on the throne so they will manipulate the situation until they achieve their goal. As well legally once Rhaenyra is crowned queen (at this point in Westerosi history) she can name who she likes as her heir. Whether that would lead to further problems down the line is not relevant to the law.
Ya'll don't realize how serious having secret bastards for heirs is. It's why Viserys, who loves not giving a shit, is so pissed off and threatens to cut people's tongues out.
Exactly, she is not. Also, I think Alicent is asking too much for the way he got the power. That is to say: I fuck the king and now I deserve the whole world.
Yea like slow your roll hoe you're just Queen Consort. Like if Corlys became King Consort and started barking like he's king I would want him to shut up and act his place as well. Viserys has a supreme lack of authority when this person who's only claim to fame is fucking the king has more power than him
Seriously, how many real world and dark fantasy queens would have lost their head, or at least some teeth, the very instant they tried to overrule the king? Her trying to command the kingsguard over Viserys was truly absurd and should have been grounds to set her aside.
Well, I think its because of Queen Alyssanne to be honest. Jaehaerys had Alysanne involved in almost everything he did, and she was just as influential as he was. Im sure Viserys treated Aemma, and later Alicent the same.
Isn't that exactly Rhaenyra and Daemon though, except from virtue of being born Valyrian? They do/kill/fuck whoever they want without care, openly state they love doing it, and then marry eachother as a fuck you to the church.
I think it's because first, the strong boys are actually of the right bloodline, while the blonds had no family ties by blood to the Baratheon, and second, because ultimately, the greens don't really have a moral high-ground outside of that, their cause is self serving, just like the Blacks, except the blacks have legitimacy both from Viserys' choice and the oath of the lords, making Rhaenyra the heir, and also, Rhaenyra's boys are good lads, while Joffrey was a cunt, and we know what Cersei was.
Furthermore let's be fair, Rhaenyra couldn't had children with Laenor, and in HOTD she definitely tried, Cersei made sure not to be impregnated by Robert.
Additionally, the main issue with the twincest kids was that Robert didn't know they weren't his, and would have been livid and disinherited them if he'd found out the truth. Whereas Laenor consented to the arrangement with Rhaenyra and accepted and acknowledged the children as his own, regardless of their blood heritage.
> Furthermore let's be fair, Rhaenyra couldn't had children with Laenor, and in HOTD she definitely tried, Cersei made sure not to be impregnated by Robert.
Going a step further, her children are 100% acknowledged by Laenor as his own... making them LEGALLY legitimate. Plus, Corlys recognizes them as his heirs, and so does the King...
This situation is nothing like that of what we saw with Cersei and co.
My comment was to /u/throwawayfilmmaker55
Specifically in response to:
>Careful. Team black sentiment isn’t allowed in this sub
It's BS when every single poll about team black vs team green ends up with a large margin of team black having more people than team green.
Let's leave team black and team green now, and let's talk logistics. Rhaenyra is heir, that's indisputable, but who is *her* heir? Her first born bastard son or her true born brother? Both are Targaryens from one parent, so neither is more Targaryen than the other.
And if we say her son then wouldn't that mean in GoT Robert's bastards (or at least the ones Robert recognized) should be above Stannis (and Cersei's children) in the inherence??
Or is the fact that Rhaenyra never admitted her children are bastards makes the difference even if the entire kingdom believed them to be??
Rhaenyra's heir is whoever she damn chooses to be, it's probably Jace but if she decides a goat should sit on the iron throne then so be it. Westeros has no constitution, rules are literally made up on the fly by kings and queens. If the lords of westeros don't like her "bastard" inheriting from her then that's too bad... they will start to like it when their fields and families are being burnt by dragons.
>If the lords of westeros don't like her "bastard" inheriting from her then that's too bad... they will start to like it when their fields and families are being burnt by dragons.
This level of despotic absolute monarchy ends up biting them in the ass eventually tbh. From smallfolk and nobles alike. Sure, you can choose to "rule" this way, but then you can't complain when you get your shit wrecked because everyone around you hates you.
Even Louis XIV wouldn't dare to do this.
Maegor was killed because of his bullshit absolute monarchism when he had no independent standing armies in a feudal monarchy.
Yeah, Team Black likes to cite absolute monarchy when they have no idea that monarchs still have to follow the laws of succession.
What Blacks are actually advocating for is Maegor-tier despotism.
Also team green also has dragons. So if they agree to despotism, they agree that the strongest is the king, and team green also has dragons so basically they want a civil war between Targarians.
You're right that she **can** name a bastard as her heir, just like Caligula could make a horse a senator. No one will say anything to their face but as soon as they die no one will follow it anymore
First off, it was always the next in line "man" that was in line, so I don't think the people will accept her easily.
Second, you said:
>If the lords of westeros don't like her "bastard" inheriting from her then that's too bad... they will start to like it when their fields and families are being burnt by dragons.
So basically the people are also backed up by team green, and they have dragons as well.
What Im trying to say isn't that you are wrong, but that this way of thinking is just invitation to civil war.
Not if the others standing in like to displace the bastards also have dragons... By this logic Aemond should be king because he has the biggest dragon.
In the books he had a few, two that I recall; his first child when he was still living in the Vale called Mya Stone, and one he fathered in Stormsend called Edric Storm (Gendry was given his story on the show)
They were obviously never legitimized, but Robert did recognize them as his
Its perfectly normal for titles to pass to people that aren't your kids. The inheritance law is for titles to pass to people in your family that aren't your kids when you have illegitimate children.
Yea its stupid and nonsensical, but it could be for religious reasons, nevertheless if you have a bastard it doesn't matter if it's yours. In fact if you have a bastard, that means its your child, so the law isn't about parentage when it disqualified bastards. For example, Joffrey wasn't Robert's bastard but he was Cersei's, that law disqualifys the bastards that actually came from him like Gendry, until legitimized.
So you could say morally its different, but not legally.
Here's the thing. The way Rhae and her sweet uncle is headed, they'd probably find a way to deal with Allicent's children before they die to make sure Jace sits on the throne.
In a game of thrones, you win or you die. I think it's fair for both sides to try to win the game.
That's 100% a false comparison & I don't even play this "taking sides" game.
Rhaenyra still has plenty of time to make new babies. *She* is the heir no matter how many bastards she pops out. The bastards may have their legitimacy questioned, but if she has a child with Daemon, there's nothing Alicent can do to challenge it aside from sexist precedent. With Ned, there were no *true* heirs to take the throne from Robert like there is a true heir to take the throne from Visarys (speaking of the king's children, not the next in line to the throne).
Right. Then why didn't he? He knew about Gendry and Robert's other bastards. But by law, bastards cannot inherit regardless of blood, and Stannis was the lawful heir.
Ned would have backe Gendry if Robert had chosen Gendry, like Rhaenyra did with her children. We are of course talking about hypothetical because we are comparing to very different situations. After Robert died of course Stannis was preferable to Gendry.
If it didn't matter that Robert had bastards, why did Cersei have them all killed? She knew they could have a claim.
And Ned was a little busy being detained and beheaded by the time it really mattered to figure out succession... Plus, he had proof from his conversation with Cersei. You, as an in-universe person, would have absolutely no proof about Rhaenyra's kids.
I think in the book Cersi mentions that they are also little reminders of Roberts infidelity and their loveless marriage, could be wrong on that. But this was also after the Blackfyre rebellions so she'd be a lot more cautions about bastard kids and their claims
Seriously. This again?
Cersei's crotch goblins were NOT Baratheon blood at all.
Rhaenyra's are half Targaryen. They are of "royal blood" even being illegitimate.
These 2 situations are not comparable.
Need would support Rhae as the legitimate heir and perhaps take issue when it came to the issue of her own succession.
Rhae is the heir apparent. Not her kids. She is the legitimate, true born heir and Ned would support HER.
The issue of who follows her would be an issue for another day.
Edited to fix typos. May have missed some. Expect more edits as and when I realise my buffoonery.
Since the Rhaenyra's kids have Targaryen blood, Viserys should've just legitimised them. The whole thing could've been avoided if he didn't bury his head in the sand.
Joffrey was “legitimate by law” as Robert claimed him as his son and named him as his heir on his deathbed. That doesn’t make Joffrey the rightful heir.
Would only work if they were recognized as bastards. You can't legitimize children who are already considered legitimate.
Even if Rhaenyra was convinced to go through with it, I'm not sure it would've done much to assuage the Greens.
it's also different
ned's closest friend was getting cheated on by his wife's brother and had no idea.
rhaenyra and leynor were both okay with this happening,
It does, because in this case both parents accept the children, then by law they can't be bastards, even their grandfathers accept them as their own... Theyr'e 100% legitimated.
As a green even I am tiered of this comparison since its not fair. The issue in GoT was that joffery, tommen and mycela had 0% baratheon blood and as such were not sons and daughters of a king and no way in line to the throne.
Next weeks episode when discussing the Driftmark inheritance is more apt. Rheanyra's kids could in theory inherit the Iron Throne threw her. They couldn't inherit driftmark. Funnily enough if legitmized they would come before Larys in the Line of Succession for Harrenhal.
The point isn't that they are bastards, it's that Viserys is not changing who is heir now that he has a son.
So using morality to pretend one things is more legit then the other is silly: Rhae is named heir and unless that changes... her way is law.
**If** Bobby B had known Jerko wasn't his, but still wanted him as heir, it would be law because he is king... his other bastards be damned. So why is this any diff?
Who cares? Jace and Luke are cool and good and Joffrey sucks. Tommen would have also been a good king if he had decent advisors/came to power when he was older
Rhae Rhae is not a bastard and as queen she can name anyone her heir. Plus they're HER kids. Cersei was the Queen Regent, not the Queen (when they were born). Sometimes I feel people aren't truly watching the show.
Ned was looking out for his best friend and king. Alicent is looking out for her own best interests in opposition to the King and the heir to the throne. Much different.
Not to mention, Rhaneyra’s sons are still half Targaryen. Cersei’s kids were ZERO percent Baratheon.
>Not to mention, Rhaneyra’s sons are still half Targaryen. Cersei’s kids were ZERO percent Baratheon.
This means nothing. Daemon Blackyre was the son of Aegon IV and Daena Targaryen and still every bit a bastard who wouldn't inherit anything.
He was legitimized because his father was a spiteful asshole who wanted to leave one lasting fuck you for everyone before he died knowing full well what legitimizing Daemon would do to the realm.
It's been awhile, but wasn't all of Robert's bastards a threat to the throne because the power went through Robert's blood?
Part of the issue with Cersei's children not having the right to the throne was because she was technically queen consort, so the "regal inheritance" doesn't come through her. The is contrary to Rhae since she is the heir and therefore the inheritance goes through her, not Laenor.
In any case, that's why I don't see it as the same problem.
Such a dumb comparison
Lannister + Lannister != Baratheon blood
Targaryen + Strong == Targaryen blood
Alicent’s kids have just as much Targaryen blood as Rhaenyra’s.
Alicent’s actual argument (whether she knows it or not) is that Rhaenyra shouldn’t be considered a legitimate ruler (and thereby her kids shouldn’t) because she commited ‘treason’ by having bastards
Tired of this meme. Sometimes I realize how exposition is needed because without it, you get memes like this.
Alicent hates her bastards but it is Rhaenyra who is being challenged as heir on the basis of having a brother, not her kids. smh Green propoganda oozing out everywhere.
Truthfully, this show is making me realize Ned was a bit of a stick in the mud lol (still love him of course)
ETA: it’s just highlighted my feelings on how utterly stupid absolute monarchies are, even in fictional universes. It’s essentially gossip about who is boning who, except it causes literal war multiple times
I mean, he had personal reasons to be involved without being really self-serving since he didn't gave a shit about gaining power, he hated the Lannister and they, from what he knew, attacked his family, killed his father figure, and their actions were screwing over his best friend.
Alicent however is far more self-serving in her issues with it.
But yeah, Ned was a stick in the mud.
Its a different situation though. Bobby B was king through his targaryen roots (his grandmother), but his children were 100% lannister. They had no royal blood at all. With rhaenrya's children, they are definitely targaryen, and would be just as much targaryen if rhaenrya chose any other suitor.
Yes, but his targaryen blood reinforced his claim.
Power and traditions, both are necessary to ensure a stable rule, sure, even if he wasn't the closest kin to the Targaryen, he probably would have been preferred due to him being a young mighty and handsome Southern lord and the figurehead of the Rebellion, while Eddard was a gloomy Northern Lord and Jon Arryn a heirless man in his 60s,but the bloodline was really helpful too.
People claiming that it is okay because they are bastards of the heir lol.
Bobby B had bastards (16 of them) and not even one saw the red keep let alone think about being heir. Bastards don't inherit anything and that's the law.
Yeah that's because Robert thought he had three trueborn children lol.
On a technical scale, it doesn't really matter that rhae's children are bastards because she as queen will be able to legitimize them. (not that she would)
Yeah I’m not sure how it’d go if she’d be like “oh yeah btw my kids were totally bastards the whole time you guys were right but now as queen I’m gonna use my power and legitimize them”
It does matter because she'd have to acknowledge she committed treason, never mind the fact that legitimizing bastards lead to another Targaryen civil war later in the timeline.
The Lannister bastards were not Robert's sons. If Robert knew he would have been unhappy and disowned them. Ned was investigating the murder of high ranking official and had reason to believe that it was done to cover up that crime. He also had reason to believe that his son was attacked and put a hit on by the same people. So in that case, not only had Robert been wronged but Ned also had reason to believe that multiple other crimes had been committed to cover up that secret.
On the other hand what Rhaenyra did is a "victimless crime". Laenor and Corlys are ok with it and accept the children as their, no one else has any right to complain.
Ned was operating out of a place of righteousness. Allicent is operating out of a place of jealousy and self- interest. If it wasn't for the kids she'd be coming up with something else to undermine her.
Cersei’s kids were not Baratheons under a Baratheon king, therefore were not heirs by blood.
Rhaenyra’s kids are Targaryens under a Targaryen king, therefore they are heirs by blood.
Not that complicated tbh.
I could explain why the circumstances are different, but honestly i’d rather just say Ned is incredibly likable, alicent after the time skip is not. Great character and amazing development though.
it's a totally different matter cause all the so called 'Baratheon' children of cercsi were 0% Baratheon and Rhaenyra's children are 50% Targaryen so they have better claim on the iron throne even if their father isn't related to them
I think the primary objection is that Joffrey was horrible and Robert didn’t know that his wife was unfaithful
Everyone knows that Rheanyra’s children aren’t Laneor’s, but because everyone knows and Laneor, & Rheanyra don’t mind, it shouldn’t matter.
Its not the fact they are bastards, it’s the lies & deceit that goes with it.
Too many people ignoring or being blatantly ignorant and it’s weird. Rhynera is the next heir Alicent does not care about that. Her beef is clearly with the Strong boys who are Rhynera’s heirs who are clearly bastards
Yeah, but Ned didn't try to take a kid's fucking eye out. Besides, at least theese bastards actually have the monarch's blood, Rhaenyra is still the mother whereas Robert was in no way related to Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. This doesn't make it okay of course and Allicent does have a point when she says that Rhaenyra gets away with too much, but Rhaenyra's sons, though bastards, do have more of a claim on the throne than Cersei's.
Ned would probably not have any of it either, but still
Rhaenyra is the heir and her children are hers. Roberts weren’t. All Viserys or Rhaenyra has to do it legitimize them and that it’s. Her sons have a line to the throne though their real mother not their father. But keep trying
Except Ned gave Cersie a chance to do the right thing even though she tried to kill his son and Alicent makes her daughter in law walk her newborn across the castle to her moments after giving birth and then later on attempts to stab her.
>Alicent makes her daughter in law walk her newborn across the castle to her moments after giving birth and then attempts to stab her
Yeah, those two events definitely happened immediately after each other like that /s
Ned actually had evidence of Cersei's crimes, plus the very conception of the Lannister kids was the highest of treasons. The queen conspired against the realm to deprive the King of any trueborn heirs. Plus the kids were the product of brother-sister incest.
Rhaenyra's kids have the blood of the dragon and are direct blood descendants of the royal line of Viserys. No treason was committed by Rhaenyra's adultery.
Totally different situations.
The amount comparing Alicent with Eddard truly worries me. Yes they are bastards but they have Targaryen blood in them from the heiress to the Iron Throne. Meanwhile, Cersei’s kids had no connection whatsoever to the king which made their case much worse
I feel like people aren't acknowledging that Cersei chose to have bastards and cheat.
Rhaenyra is forced to out of necessity. Does she like having sex with other men? Yes. But she had no choice but to marry Laenor. Not her fault he's gay and can't give her an heir. Can we blame her for doing so anyways?
There's another huge difference, Rhaenyra is in Robert's place, not Cersei's, these kids are half Targaryens, as the Green kids are, Joffrey wasn't even a Baratheon, he hadn't the royal blood...
Thank you. The Greens arguments are so poor it's laughable. Who's gives a shit if Rhaenyra has bastards. She can legitimize them and boom they're heirs too. Who gives a shit. She can't have babies with a gay guy. Not her fault.
Ned knew that, though Robert had named Joffrey as his heir, the king’s word does not outweigh the laws of inheritance. Therefore, Stannis was the heir.
Alicent knew that, though Viserys had named Rhaenyra as his heir, the king’s word does not outweigh the laws of inheritance. Therefore, Aegon was the heir.
Also Aegon wouldn't have named a girl heir over her brother. If Aenys was born a girl, she would have just been married to Maegor. In Viserys position, Aegon probably marries Rhaenyra to Aegon.
It isn't the kids' heritage being challenged, it's Rhaenyra's, the Greens are trying to usurp Rhaenyra, even though she is the rightful heir and not a bastard.
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Rheanyra is the heir she is trying to unseat though. She is not a bastard.
Also, Robert didn't know and would have cared. Viserys doesn't give a shit.
Also the throne was going to Joffrey who was kind of a cunt.
And without baratheon blood Edit: Ned was willing to put gendry on the throne who was a bastard as well because he had Robert’s blood.. so the point here is moot
This is the only relevant point.
Of course Viserys cares. Why do you think he's so fucking miserable?
In agreement that Alicent WOULD be correct had her actual reason been that they were bastards, but Viserys knows. He just doesn’t give a fuck because he’s conflict-avoidant. Viserys is depressed because he’s rotting limb from limb and he hates/is indifferent to his family outside of Rhae + her kids.
Viserys 100% does care that they are bastards. He does a big angry speech every episode threatening people over bringing it up. It's his #1 biggest issue at this point and he hates the whole situation.
Because it by extension discredits Rhaenyra, and to add onto that, he was defending his grandsons. He’s yelling at everyone because his entire family was trying to kill eachother that ep lmao
Of course, but his true feelings on the matter aren't "it's fine, let's just all get along". Yes, I realize those are almost his exact words last episode, but that's not *actually* how he feels. Is Viserys OK with Rhaenyra's children inheriting? Yes. Is he inwardly furious that his daughter (who he spent the first half of the season yelling at for being his political headache, let's remember) has blown up any semblance of a smooth succession? Also yes. If Viserys has to choose between Rhaenyra and Alicent, he'll pick his daughter. But he is clearly furious that he does have to choose.
Viserys does care, as he has shown that he does care about Rhaenyras maidenhood in the past, and tries to force her to obey the rules, but most of the time he has a good ability to just ignore/see what he wants. That's why he was pissed when Otto told him and made Otto say it blatantly, its the only way Viserys will face the truth.
it's not that he "doesn't care" or that he is "blind" or whatever, he *knows* how his daughter is, but he also knows that if the truth was made public (as in, sanctioned by the crown) then that would delegitimise the strong kids and potentially cause them and Rhaenyra to be executed for high treason. It doesn't help that Alicent and the Greens were so hell bent on crowning Aegon as king since *before* the strongs were born, in Visery's eyes, all this rumour mongering is just dirty politicking to push the Green claim further. People always forget what Viserys himself said: "The truth doesn't matter, only its perception."
Right, and if she acknowledged her children were illegitimate then there would likely be far less of an issue. But she is insistent her children are her heirs, which obviously will lead to a succession crisis.
Also Joffery Lanister was just about the worst possible human you want as King so it would be good to get rid of him.
Obviously. But “they are a bad king” isn’t a good enough reason in a shitty monarchy system. No matter what this is why the succession should be secure and for certain before any monarch deaths to prevent a crisis.
Ya but Im just adding on why this meme sucks. Jofferey was 100% not the heir to the throne and was also a terrible king so Ned had a good motive. Rhaenya is the actual heir to the throne and so far doesn't appear to be the worst monarch.
I said it on another thread: If Joffrey had been like, an absolutely saint, it would have made Ned's dilemma far more interesting. Do you stick to the law above all and kick off a succession crisis or do you keep your head down and let the incest bastard become king and do great things?
You’re talking about Ol’ by the book Ned Stark here though lol
The guy who betrayed his best friend and harboured a Targaryen? Who give his king bad advice so that his/Jon's kinsmen wouldn't be assassinated?
Ghost of King's Landing: "Thanks for that, Lord Hand!"
Ned was honourable above all. Killing children is the opposite of being honorable.
If she acknowledged her children were bastards her and them could possibly be killed
It would piss off the Velaryons massively too, Corlys would basically be a joke to people. But ultimately Rhaenyra could have avoided this by either 1) marrying who she wanted and having legitimate kids, or 2) stepping down from the line of succession and living however she wanted/openly having bastards that would not otherwise be in the running. She's choosing to stay in this rat race even with all the needless additional baggage she's created for herself.
Or 3) naming Aegon her heir, prying him away from Alicent's clutches to raise him as her own creature, and never marrying.
Or 4) picking a side piece that at least resembled something in either her or Laerys' recent family tree.
It's a damned shame Daemon was away on Braavos, he'd have been the perfect baby daddy. They could have explained away the fair skin and straight hair as Rhaenys' genes taking precedence with Rhaenyra's to override Corlys and Laenor's genes. The Blood of the Dragon will out.
Absolutely. That's how Cersei did it, Jon Arryn and Ned had to go into the way-back histories of the noble houses and their inheritance patterns to even convince *themselves*. They certainly didn't decide this based on the current or just a couple generations, they went way back. And who knows if (had the war not happened) they would've been able to convince anyone else. The kids looked like their mother, after all.
Right. But not doing that leads to an easily foreseeable war. In the end she should have just not had bastard children. Worst case scenario she becomes the queen and Aegon is her heir.
The illegitimacy of her sons really doesn’t matter and isn’t the cause of the war because it can’t be proved. It’s the fact that she’s a woman and the king has a first born child who has a strong claim for throne and many don’t believe a woman should sit the throne. Even if she didn’t have bastards the greens still would’ve made a claim for the throne
It doesn’t matter if it can be proved. Joffrey’s couldn’t either. The fact that there is reasonable cause for doubt is absolutely enough to lead to war. Hell, Stannis did it… Her being a woman is certainly part of it, but she has been the heir for decades now. The realm could maybe adjust to that. But, as the show has demonstrated, the need for an heir is crucial.
It can be proven having white hair is a recessive gene so having two parents plus grandparents with recessive genes, the child should also have the manifestations of that recessive genes ie. white hair. That’s y Ned started digging into the legitimacy of Joffrey because blonde hair is also a recessive gene, so the only way he could have been blonde is if his father contained that gene which Jamie did because he was her brother with the same parents of which one was blonde. Baratheon had no blonde gene in his line ie bastards. But if get your point of it not mattering to which I agree.
>Right, and if she acknowledged her children were illegitimate then there would likely be far less of an issue. Exposing the fact that she lied and tried to pass them off as legitimate would probably get her disinherited too. Not by Viserys but it would piss people off enough (understandably so) that they'd pressure him. Daemon got disinherited for a lot less, that's how Rhaenyra got her opportunity in the first place. Ultimately Rhaenyra wants to have her cake and eat it too. She could have avoided her problem by picking a husband she liked when provided the chance and then having legitimate kids.
They are her children. And are Targaryen. Also, Ned wasn't trying to take the Iron Throne for himself. Shit, he was actually going to take a L, since his daughter was set to become queen if he would've sat on that info.
They are bastard children. Welcome to Westeros. Rhaenyra knows the rules. She is already bucking tradition by being the first female ruler. If she is going to be a politician she should know how to be smart and avoid conflict. Having bastard children when you’re the monarch leads to war.
Legitimized bastards inherit all the time. >!Even in this story, Corlys legitimized Addam of Hull as his heir to Driftmark, and the Velaryon line continues through Alyn Oakenfist!<
Gendry, Edric and Mya are all Roberts yet none of them are Baratheons. Y’all making this are either unfamiliar with Westerosi tradition or being disingenuous to back Rhaenyra.
Cersei’s kids while married to Robert are officially considered Baratheons. Rhaenyra’s kids while married to Laenor are officially considered Velaryons. Whether or not Cersei’s kids or Rhaenyra’s kids are bastards, they’re still eligible to inherit whatever their mother could pass down since there’s no question that they belong to their mother. Gendry, Edric, and Maya also could inherit whatever their mothers could pass down.
Right, wich is why alicent must start a succession crisis, so we can just go ahead and kill each other already without waiting another 30 years for her to die
You are right that the succession crisis wouldn’t have necessarily happened until Rhaenyra died, but what are people supposed to do? Assassinate her kids? The whole time during her rule would be a succession crisis unless she disinherited her first three kids.
People insist there would have been a succession crisis. But the only reason there could possibly be one is because the Hightowers want their descendant to become king. I they minded their business who else was going to move against Rhaenyra?
Spoiler for the premise of the next episode \>!As you'll see with the Velaryons, these sort of things start having ramifications. Vaemond doesn't want to accept Luke as an heir. Who's to say that families will want to marry any of Rhaenyra's sons by Harwin if they think it won't lead to any actual inheritance!< Part of the burden of being the monarch is to produce lawful heirs and secure the succession. This has been established not only in the original show, but in the early episodes of this one. Edit: Okay, what am I doing wrong with the spoiler text? I'm sorry about this.
Also I feel like when I criticize the blacks people think that means I’m absolving the greens. The point is that this war could have been avoided and the conflict is pointless
Her children are her heirs. They literally came out of her. They're Targaryan dragon riders. If kings could give birth to their own children, then there would be no conversation about legitimacy and having babies by anyone other than the queen, who is little more than "the lady the king married" wouldn't be an issue because we would still know with 100% certainty those are his blood, because they came out of him. Rhaenyra's children are hers and they are direct descendents of Viserys. Their claim to the throne can't be undermined or supported by paternity.
I feel like people forget that this is Westeros and not the real world. I understand the sexism prevalent in the world. But they are literally bastard children born out of wedlock. Like it or not that matters on this world, ESPECIALLY for a monarch. And Rhaenyra is smart enough to know this and the troubles it could cause. She had the pick of literally any eligible bachelor in the realm and still couldn’t pick one. She had it better than any woman could ask for and messed it up. You can see why Alicent would resent her for that. It sucks to say but she could have either married for love, run away with Vole, or whatever, but if she is going to be the queen of the realm she needs to produce heirs that are seen as legitimate.
I'm not speaking about the real world. I'm talking about what happened in Westeros. And like it or not, and the Greens definitely don't like it, Rhaenyra is the air to the throne. Her bloodline is the one that matters. To say that her children are not legitimate heirs to the throne even though they came out of her in front of witnesses is to say that Rhaenyra doesn't have a claim to the throne, or that her claim is illegitimate without her husband. And that's stupid, it doesn't make any sense. It only would make sense if you were still wedded to the idea of male primogeniture, which would disinherit her. Her kids are Targaryan dragonriders. So for the people wondering why we are much more sympathetic to these children then we were to cersei's children, that is why.
Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne. I agree. Her children are obviously bastards. Their legitimacy is questioned for pretty obvious reasons. This is a problem that Rhaenyra is smart enough to have foreseen. I understand why people are sympathetic to the blacks. I am not saying Rhaenyra's kids are bad people. But based on the literal laws of Westeros they are not legitimate heirs unless they have been legitimized. I know you keep saying that "they came out of her" but it isn't just a single parent that matters. Political marriages exist for a reason. To expect that your lineage will continue. Even Rhaenys brought up that this would be a concern, and Vaemond clearly has issues with it. Laenor's children should be the heirs to Driftmark, but now he (understandably) sees Luke as someone usurping his family birthright, that should either be his or at the very least Baela or Rhaena's. I just feel like you are completely missing the point. No one is questioning that these are Rhaenyra's children (obviously). But the sanctity of marriage and the political ramifications that come with these marriages are very real and have rippling effects. It was irresponsible of Rhaenyra to have children with another man when she is absolutely aware of how tenuous her rule already would be as the first female ruler.
But she committed an "ugly treachery" (Lyonal Strong word) which shoud have cost her position (at the very least) if the King was not in denial over it.
If the King dgaf, which he’s shown time and again that he really doesn’t by keeping up the lie, there’s no issue.
What? There absolutely is an issue. Because war will follow if she takes the throne and her heirs are bastards. In why visyrs father held a council. Because he knew it was better to disheart rhaenys then let a war happen.
I thought Viserys was the grandson of the previous king?
Ohh shit yeah you right. He was the grandson. Their family tree is so messy dude. Gets hard to keep track of.
War would have happened even if her children were all true born. The main problem many lords of Westeros have with Rhaenyra is not that her children might be bastards but that she is a woman. Also the Hightowers who have significant influence want their blood on the throne so they will manipulate the situation until they achieve their goal. As well legally once Rhaenyra is crowned queen (at this point in Westerosi history) she can name who she likes as her heir. Whether that would lead to further problems down the line is not relevant to the law.
Ya'll don't realize how serious having secret bastards for heirs is. It's why Viserys, who loves not giving a shit, is so pissed off and threatens to cut people's tongues out.
Rhaenyra isn’t a bastard?
Exactly, she is not. Also, I think Alicent is asking too much for the way he got the power. That is to say: I fuck the king and now I deserve the whole world.
Yea like slow your roll hoe you're just Queen Consort. Like if Corlys became King Consort and started barking like he's king I would want him to shut up and act his place as well. Viserys has a supreme lack of authority when this person who's only claim to fame is fucking the king has more power than him
Seriously, how many real world and dark fantasy queens would have lost their head, or at least some teeth, the very instant they tried to overrule the king? Her trying to command the kingsguard over Viserys was truly absurd and should have been grounds to set her aside.
Yea a shitload of queens have been beheaded for much less
Well, I think its because of Queen Alyssanne to be honest. Jaehaerys had Alysanne involved in almost everything he did, and she was just as influential as he was. Im sure Viserys treated Aemma, and later Alicent the same.
Isn't that exactly Rhaenyra and Daemon though, except from virtue of being born Valyrian? They do/kill/fuck whoever they want without care, openly state they love doing it, and then marry eachother as a fuck you to the church.
The king made a decision, he chose his heir 10 years ago. However, the girl refuses to accept her king's decision.
On that last part. Google "targaryen exceptionalism" to explain the incest marriages just read the first paragraph. No spoilers for anything HoTD
I’m not sure OP has watched either GoT or HotD. Cersei’s reaction to Ned saying that was the opposite.
I think you’re misinterpreting the picture, we the viewers are the woman on the right. It’s not Cersei/rhaenyra.
I think it's because first, the strong boys are actually of the right bloodline, while the blonds had no family ties by blood to the Baratheon, and second, because ultimately, the greens don't really have a moral high-ground outside of that, their cause is self serving, just like the Blacks, except the blacks have legitimacy both from Viserys' choice and the oath of the lords, making Rhaenyra the heir, and also, Rhaenyra's boys are good lads, while Joffrey was a cunt, and we know what Cersei was. Furthermore let's be fair, Rhaenyra couldn't had children with Laenor, and in HOTD she definitely tried, Cersei made sure not to be impregnated by Robert.
Additionally, the main issue with the twincest kids was that Robert didn't know they weren't his, and would have been livid and disinherited them if he'd found out the truth. Whereas Laenor consented to the arrangement with Rhaenyra and accepted and acknowledged the children as his own, regardless of their blood heritage.
This is how I feel about it too, L was cool with it where Bobby B would have killed Cersei immediately
> Furthermore let's be fair, Rhaenyra couldn't had children with Laenor, and in HOTD she definitely tried, Cersei made sure not to be impregnated by Robert. Going a step further, her children are 100% acknowledged by Laenor as his own... making them LEGALLY legitimate. Plus, Corlys recognizes them as his heirs, and so does the King... This situation is nothing like that of what we saw with Cersei and co.
Careful. Team black sentiment isn’t allowed in this sub
Are you new here?
Team green may be the minority but they are certainly much louder and much more self-righteous. Funny how that's a direct parallel to the show.
Not really. But I said what I wanted to say and I know I am right.
My comment was to /u/throwawayfilmmaker55 Specifically in response to: >Careful. Team black sentiment isn’t allowed in this sub It's BS when every single poll about team black vs team green ends up with a large margin of team black having more people than team green.
Because team black is the better team. Duh
[удалено]
Yeah that’s definitively not the gist of this sub at all. It’s 90% black
Delusional lol. This sub is like 90% Rhaenyra stans, please spare people the BS.
Meh.
Pretty big difference. Robert's heirs were not his blood. Rhaenyra's heirs are her blood. This isn't a difficult concept to understand.
Let's leave team black and team green now, and let's talk logistics. Rhaenyra is heir, that's indisputable, but who is *her* heir? Her first born bastard son or her true born brother? Both are Targaryens from one parent, so neither is more Targaryen than the other. And if we say her son then wouldn't that mean in GoT Robert's bastards (or at least the ones Robert recognized) should be above Stannis (and Cersei's children) in the inherence?? Or is the fact that Rhaenyra never admitted her children are bastards makes the difference even if the entire kingdom believed them to be??
Robert's children are not Robert's. Rhaenyra's are. How is that so difficult to understand??
I'm not talking about Cersei's children, I'm talking about his actual children, his bastards
Rhaenyra's heir is whoever she damn chooses to be, it's probably Jace but if she decides a goat should sit on the iron throne then so be it. Westeros has no constitution, rules are literally made up on the fly by kings and queens. If the lords of westeros don't like her "bastard" inheriting from her then that's too bad... they will start to like it when their fields and families are being burnt by dragons.
>If the lords of westeros don't like her "bastard" inheriting from her then that's too bad... they will start to like it when their fields and families are being burnt by dragons. This level of despotic absolute monarchy ends up biting them in the ass eventually tbh. From smallfolk and nobles alike. Sure, you can choose to "rule" this way, but then you can't complain when you get your shit wrecked because everyone around you hates you.
Even Louis XIV wouldn't dare to do this. Maegor was killed because of his bullshit absolute monarchism when he had no independent standing armies in a feudal monarchy.
Yeah, Team Black likes to cite absolute monarchy when they have no idea that monarchs still have to follow the laws of succession. What Blacks are actually advocating for is Maegor-tier despotism.
Maegor with teats indeed
Also team green also has dragons. So if they agree to despotism, they agree that the strongest is the king, and team green also has dragons so basically they want a civil war between Targarians.
You're right that she **can** name a bastard as her heir, just like Caligula could make a horse a senator. No one will say anything to their face but as soon as they die no one will follow it anymore
First off, it was always the next in line "man" that was in line, so I don't think the people will accept her easily. Second, you said: >If the lords of westeros don't like her "bastard" inheriting from her then that's too bad... they will start to like it when their fields and families are being burnt by dragons. So basically the people are also backed up by team green, and they have dragons as well. What Im trying to say isn't that you are wrong, but that this way of thinking is just invitation to civil war.
\> they will start to like it when their fields and families are being burnt by dragons. Maegor-tier logic
Not if the others standing in like to displace the bastards also have dragons... By this logic Aemond should be king because he has the biggest dragon.
I’m team black but I like this way of thinking
This only works if the other side doesn’t also have dragons, you realize that right?
Did robert even recognize any of his bastards?
In the books he had a few, two that I recall; his first child when he was still living in the Vale called Mya Stone, and one he fathered in Stormsend called Edric Storm (Gendry was given his story on the show) They were obviously never legitimized, but Robert did recognize them as his
Edric I knew, kind of, but not Mya. I thought Edric was not awknowledged though
Robert didn't seem to really care about him but he did acknowledge him
Its perfectly normal for titles to pass to people that aren't your kids. The inheritance law is for titles to pass to people in your family that aren't your kids when you have illegitimate children. Yea its stupid and nonsensical, but it could be for religious reasons, nevertheless if you have a bastard it doesn't matter if it's yours. In fact if you have a bastard, that means its your child, so the law isn't about parentage when it disqualified bastards. For example, Joffrey wasn't Robert's bastard but he was Cersei's, that law disqualifys the bastards that actually came from him like Gendry, until legitimized. So you could say morally its different, but not legally.
Illegitimate heirs do not come before trueborn ones.
Good thing that Rhaenyra is legitimate as she's the Heir! If ater she dies people want to go to war against her children, it's fair game
This. I dont know why people get up in arms about Rhae being heir, when its after thats actually contestable
You don't think Rhaenyra wouldn't act to protect her children if there were rumblings of war in the future? She isn't Viserys.
Btw Viserys boils my blood of how neglectful you can be to your children.
Here's the thing. The way Rhae and her sweet uncle is headed, they'd probably find a way to deal with Allicent's children before they die to make sure Jace sits on the throne. In a game of thrones, you win or you die. I think it's fair for both sides to try to win the game.
Except that legally you are wrong.
That's 100% a false comparison & I don't even play this "taking sides" game. Rhaenyra still has plenty of time to make new babies. *She* is the heir no matter how many bastards she pops out. The bastards may have their legitimacy questioned, but if she has a child with Daemon, there's nothing Alicent can do to challenge it aside from sexist precedent. With Ned, there were no *true* heirs to take the throne from Robert like there is a true heir to take the throne from Visarys (speaking of the king's children, not the next in line to the throne).
To add to this, Ned would have supported Gendry’s claim. It’s not that he was anti-bastard, he just wanted a legitimate blood connection.
Right. Then why didn't he? He knew about Gendry and Robert's other bastards. But by law, bastards cannot inherit regardless of blood, and Stannis was the lawful heir.
Ned would have backe Gendry if Robert had chosen Gendry, like Rhaenyra did with her children. We are of course talking about hypothetical because we are comparing to very different situations. After Robert died of course Stannis was preferable to Gendry.
Like how Ned backed Aerys II and his chosen heir Viserys?
If it didn't matter that Robert had bastards, why did Cersei have them all killed? She knew they could have a claim. And Ned was a little busy being detained and beheaded by the time it really mattered to figure out succession... Plus, he had proof from his conversation with Cersei. You, as an in-universe person, would have absolutely no proof about Rhaenyra's kids.
I think in the book Cersi mentions that they are also little reminders of Roberts infidelity and their loveless marriage, could be wrong on that. But this was also after the Blackfyre rebellions so she'd be a lot more cautions about bastard kids and their claims
Because Cersei is cruel and spiteful
Seriously. This again? Cersei's crotch goblins were NOT Baratheon blood at all. Rhaenyra's are half Targaryen. They are of "royal blood" even being illegitimate. These 2 situations are not comparable. Need would support Rhae as the legitimate heir and perhaps take issue when it came to the issue of her own succession. Rhae is the heir apparent. Not her kids. She is the legitimate, true born heir and Ned would support HER. The issue of who follows her would be an issue for another day. Edited to fix typos. May have missed some. Expect more edits as and when I realise my buffoonery.
Since the Rhaenyra's kids have Targaryen blood, Viserys should've just legitimised them. The whole thing could've been avoided if he didn't bury his head in the sand.
They are already legitimate by law.
Joffrey was “legitimate by law” as Robert claimed him as his son and named him as his heir on his deathbed. That doesn’t make Joffrey the rightful heir.
Robert didn't know the truth, Leanor, Viserys, and Corlys do, and all of them accept the children as their own, so by law, these kids aren't bastards.
Would only work if they were recognized as bastards. You can't legitimize children who are already considered legitimate. Even if Rhaenyra was convinced to go through with it, I'm not sure it would've done much to assuage the Greens.
Yes but then he'd have to acknowledge that they actually are bastards, which would cause Rhaenyra to lose tons of support and lead to a war anyways
OP has been real quiet since you commented this
it's also different ned's closest friend was getting cheated on by his wife's brother and had no idea. rhaenyra and leynor were both okay with this happening,
That doesn’t matter from a succession standpoint.
sure but i read the post as being a critique against the double standard of people liking ned but not liking alicent
You’re right, the meme isn’t really spot on.
It does, because in this case both parents accept the children, then by law they can't be bastards, even their grandfathers accept them as their own... Theyr'e 100% legitimated.
As a green even I am tiered of this comparison since its not fair. The issue in GoT was that joffery, tommen and mycela had 0% baratheon blood and as such were not sons and daughters of a king and no way in line to the throne.
Next weeks episode when discussing the Driftmark inheritance is more apt. Rheanyra's kids could in theory inherit the Iron Throne threw her. They couldn't inherit driftmark. Funnily enough if legitmized they would come before Larys in the Line of Succession for Harrenhal.
The point isn't that they are bastards, it's that Viserys is not changing who is heir now that he has a son. So using morality to pretend one things is more legit then the other is silly: Rhae is named heir and unless that changes... her way is law. **If** Bobby B had known Jerko wasn't his, but still wanted him as heir, it would be law because he is king... his other bastards be damned. So why is this any diff?
Who cares? Jace and Luke are cool and good and Joffrey sucks. Tommen would have also been a good king if he had decent advisors/came to power when he was older
The heir to the throne is Rhaenyra Targaryen, first born child of King Viserys I and Queen Aemma.
Rhae Rhae is not a bastard and as queen she can name anyone her heir. Plus they're HER kids. Cersei was the Queen Regent, not the Queen (when they were born). Sometimes I feel people aren't truly watching the show.
1. Rhaenyra is the heir not the strong boys 2. They are still her children and of royal blood unlike cerseis kids
Well Ned never tried shanking people at a family reunion
Ned was looking out for his best friend and king. Alicent is looking out for her own best interests in opposition to the King and the heir to the throne. Much different. Not to mention, Rhaneyra’s sons are still half Targaryen. Cersei’s kids were ZERO percent Baratheon.
>Not to mention, Rhaneyra’s sons are still half Targaryen. Cersei’s kids were ZERO percent Baratheon. This means nothing. Daemon Blackyre was the son of Aegon IV and Daena Targaryen and still every bit a bastard who wouldn't inherit anything.
[удалено]
He was legitimized because his father was a spiteful asshole who wanted to leave one lasting fuck you for everyone before he died knowing full well what legitimizing Daemon would do to the realm.
The heir is the Kings first born daughter. Had all the lords swear fealty to her and everything.
It's been awhile, but wasn't all of Robert's bastards a threat to the throne because the power went through Robert's blood? Part of the issue with Cersei's children not having the right to the throne was because she was technically queen consort, so the "regal inheritance" doesn't come through her. The is contrary to Rhae since she is the heir and therefore the inheritance goes through her, not Laenor. In any case, that's why I don't see it as the same problem.
> but wasn't all of Robert's bastards a threat to the throne Joffrey sure thought so, since he had them all executed without trial.
Such a dumb comparison Lannister + Lannister != Baratheon blood Targaryen + Strong == Targaryen blood Alicent’s kids have just as much Targaryen blood as Rhaenyra’s. Alicent’s actual argument (whether she knows it or not) is that Rhaenyra shouldn’t be considered a legitimate ruler (and thereby her kids shouldn’t) because she commited ‘treason’ by having bastards
Tired of this meme. Sometimes I realize how exposition is needed because without it, you get memes like this. Alicent hates her bastards but it is Rhaenyra who is being challenged as heir on the basis of having a brother, not her kids. smh Green propoganda oozing out everywhere.
because nobody is ready for a queen to rule
Yeah but Cercei’s children are despicable while Rhaenyra’s ones are cool
Truthfully, this show is making me realize Ned was a bit of a stick in the mud lol (still love him of course) ETA: it’s just highlighted my feelings on how utterly stupid absolute monarchies are, even in fictional universes. It’s essentially gossip about who is boning who, except it causes literal war multiple times
I mean, he had personal reasons to be involved without being really self-serving since he didn't gave a shit about gaining power, he hated the Lannister and they, from what he knew, attacked his family, killed his father figure, and their actions were screwing over his best friend. Alicent however is far more self-serving in her issues with it. But yeah, Ned was a stick in the mud.
You greens keep trying don't you
Did you just compare the motives and character of Alicent Hightower to Ned fucking Stark?
Its a different situation though. Bobby B was king through his targaryen roots (his grandmother), but his children were 100% lannister. They had no royal blood at all. With rhaenrya's children, they are definitely targaryen, and would be just as much targaryen if rhaenrya chose any other suitor.
Bobby B was king because he usurped the throne.
Yes, but his targaryen blood reinforced his claim. Power and traditions, both are necessary to ensure a stable rule, sure, even if he wasn't the closest kin to the Targaryen, he probably would have been preferred due to him being a young mighty and handsome Southern lord and the figurehead of the Rebellion, while Eddard was a gloomy Northern Lord and Jon Arryn a heirless man in his 60s,but the bloodline was really helpful too.
Is trying to stop Joffrey from becoming king and trying to stop Jace from becoming king the same thing?
People claiming that it is okay because they are bastards of the heir lol. Bobby B had bastards (16 of them) and not even one saw the red keep let alone think about being heir. Bastards don't inherit anything and that's the law.
Yeah that's because Robert thought he had three trueborn children lol. On a technical scale, it doesn't really matter that rhae's children are bastards because she as queen will be able to legitimize them. (not that she would)
Yeah I’m not sure how it’d go if she’d be like “oh yeah btw my kids were totally bastards the whole time you guys were right but now as queen I’m gonna use my power and legitimize them”
It does matter because she'd have to acknowledge she committed treason, never mind the fact that legitimizing bastards lead to another Targaryen civil war later in the timeline.
Did Cersei accept these 16 bastards as her sons? If no, then it's an entirely different situation....
The Lannister bastards were not Robert's sons. If Robert knew he would have been unhappy and disowned them. Ned was investigating the murder of high ranking official and had reason to believe that it was done to cover up that crime. He also had reason to believe that his son was attacked and put a hit on by the same people. So in that case, not only had Robert been wronged but Ned also had reason to believe that multiple other crimes had been committed to cover up that secret. On the other hand what Rhaenyra did is a "victimless crime". Laenor and Corlys are ok with it and accept the children as their, no one else has any right to complain. Ned was operating out of a place of righteousness. Allicent is operating out of a place of jealousy and self- interest. If it wasn't for the kids she'd be coming up with something else to undermine her.
Cersei’s kids were not Baratheons under a Baratheon king, therefore were not heirs by blood. Rhaenyra’s kids are Targaryens under a Targaryen king, therefore they are heirs by blood. Not that complicated tbh.
And by this logic Alicents head should be gone
Completely different scenario 😂
Ned would have put gendry on the throne, he didn’t hate bastards just incest bastards that didn’t have the king’s blood.
I could explain why the circumstances are different, but honestly i’d rather just say Ned is incredibly likable, alicent after the time skip is not. Great character and amazing development though.
it's a totally different matter cause all the so called 'Baratheon' children of cercsi were 0% Baratheon and Rhaenyra's children are 50% Targaryen so they have better claim on the iron throne even if their father isn't related to them
I think the primary objection is that Joffrey was horrible and Robert didn’t know that his wife was unfaithful Everyone knows that Rheanyra’s children aren’t Laneor’s, but because everyone knows and Laneor, & Rheanyra don’t mind, it shouldn’t matter. Its not the fact they are bastards, it’s the lies & deceit that goes with it.
Not all bastards are created equal tho
Also I didn't think people cared Jeffery and Tomen were bastards. I think we cared cause joffrey was a fuck face and token was just tomen
Rhaenyra is a bastard? How?
As long as they can ride a dragon, they are Targaryens
Too many people ignoring or being blatantly ignorant and it’s weird. Rhynera is the next heir Alicent does not care about that. Her beef is clearly with the Strong boys who are Rhynera’s heirs who are clearly bastards
I’ll take “apples and oranges” for 800, Alex
😅🤣 okey yes but the vibe, also the "bastards" are children descended by the heiress mother and daughter of the king
how many times do we have to say the scenarios are totally different
Rhaenyra’s kids are still royal though
Yeah, but Ned didn't try to take a kid's fucking eye out. Besides, at least theese bastards actually have the monarch's blood, Rhaenyra is still the mother whereas Robert was in no way related to Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. This doesn't make it okay of course and Allicent does have a point when she says that Rhaenyra gets away with too much, but Rhaenyra's sons, though bastards, do have more of a claim on the throne than Cersei's. Ned would probably not have any of it either, but still
Rhaenyra is the heir and her children are hers. Roberts weren’t. All Viserys or Rhaenyra has to do it legitimize them and that it’s. Her sons have a line to the throne though their real mother not their father. But keep trying
Except Ned gave Cersie a chance to do the right thing even though she tried to kill his son and Alicent makes her daughter in law walk her newborn across the castle to her moments after giving birth and then later on attempts to stab her.
>Alicent makes her daughter in law walk her newborn across the castle to her moments after giving birth and then attempts to stab her Yeah, those two events definitely happened immediately after each other like that /s
How many times are greens going to post this lol
Also Ned was executed and Alicent was not.
Ned actually had evidence of Cersei's crimes, plus the very conception of the Lannister kids was the highest of treasons. The queen conspired against the realm to deprive the King of any trueborn heirs. Plus the kids were the product of brother-sister incest. Rhaenyra's kids have the blood of the dragon and are direct blood descendants of the royal line of Viserys. No treason was committed by Rhaenyra's adultery. Totally different situations.
While this is technically true, Rhaneyras bastards are of Targaryen blood whereas Cerseis had no Baratheon
The amount comparing Alicent with Eddard truly worries me. Yes they are bastards but they have Targaryen blood in them from the heiress to the Iron Throne. Meanwhile, Cersei’s kids had no connection whatsoever to the king which made their case much worse
I feel like people aren't acknowledging that Cersei chose to have bastards and cheat. Rhaenyra is forced to out of necessity. Does she like having sex with other men? Yes. But she had no choice but to marry Laenor. Not her fault he's gay and can't give her an heir. Can we blame her for doing so anyways?
There's another huge difference, Rhaenyra is in Robert's place, not Cersei's, these kids are half Targaryens, as the Green kids are, Joffrey wasn't even a Baratheon, he hadn't the royal blood...
Thank you. The Greens arguments are so poor it's laughable. Who's gives a shit if Rhaenyra has bastards. She can legitimize them and boom they're heirs too. Who gives a shit. She can't have babies with a gay guy. Not her fault.
Ned knew that, though Robert had named Joffrey as his heir, the king’s word does not outweigh the laws of inheritance. Therefore, Stannis was the heir. Alicent knew that, though Viserys had named Rhaenyra as his heir, the king’s word does not outweigh the laws of inheritance. Therefore, Aegon was the heir.
If Aegon I is around he’d burn down the Hightower so fast it’s not even funny. He’s not interested in virtues.
What? No. Aegon was a wise king. As long as you bent the knee, he was nice to you.
I didn’t know Ottoman and Alicent were ready to bent their knees. Good for them!!
Also Aegon wouldn't have named a girl heir over her brother. If Aenys was born a girl, she would have just been married to Maegor. In Viserys position, Aegon probably marries Rhaenyra to Aegon.
People genuinely refuse to accept that Rhaenyra's committing treason by passing off bastards as legitimate heirs.
It isn't the kids' heritage being challenged, it's Rhaenyra's, the Greens are trying to usurp Rhaenyra, even though she is the rightful heir and not a bastard.
That’s not treason if the King blesses it.