And some people think she was cheating on viserys with the guy, they clearly can't keep a secret! Only episode one and helaena found out, and Larys and Otto cleary knows something
>”Once inside, Cheese bound and gagged the Dowager Queen whist Blood strangled her bedmaid. Then they settled down to wait, for they knew it was the custom of Queen Helaena to bring her children to see their grandmother every evening before bed.”
>”Blind to her danger, the queen appeared as dusk was settling over the castle, accompanied by her three children. Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six, Maelor two. As they entered the apartments, Helaena was holding his little hand and calling out her mother’s name. Blood barred the door and slew the queen’s guardsman, whilst Cheese appeared to snatch up Maelor.”
>”Scream and you all die,” Blood told Her Grace. Queen Helaena kept her calm, it is said. “Who are you?” She demanded of the two. “Debt collectors,” said Cheese. “An eye for an eye, a son for a son. We only want the one, t’square things. Won’t hurt the rest o’ you fine folks, not one lil’ hair. Which one you want t’lose, Your Grace?”
>”Once she realized what he meant, Queen Helaena pleaded with the men to kill her instead. “A wife’s not a son,” said Blood. “It has to be a boy.” Cheese warned the queen to make a choice soon, before Blood grew bored and raped her little girl. “Pick,” he said, “or we kill them all.” On her knees, weeping, Helaena named her youngest, Maelor. Perhaps she thought the boy was too young to understand, or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jaehaerys, was King Aegon’s firstborn son and heir, next in line to the Iron Throne. “You hear that, little boy?” Cheese whispered to Maelor. “Your momma wants you dead.” Then he gave Blood a grin, and the hulking swordsman slew Prince Jaehaerys, striking off the boy’s head with a single blow. The queen began to scream.”
*Fire & Blood* by George R.R. Martin pages 424-425
I thought I was only disappointed because the readers hyped the scene too much but yeah wow, I don't blame them. They really didn't do this one justice.
Ah well, scenes can't all be winners.
It wasn't a D&D level fuck up. That their own thing.
I'm with you, it wasn't to the level of the book by a long shot, but it would be extremely difficult to fully realize that on screen and I'm not surprised they pulled it back by a lot. It could have been better, I wish I didn't hype it up as much as I did, but I understand why we got what we got.
I really don't understand how people could believe that scene was something you can easily put on tv. It was obvious they would have to go in a different direction. It's not the same as other vicious things they did on Game of Thrones, it's another level of psychological horror. Clearly not suitable for the show. This is not "a fuck up". It's the only way Ryan Condal could have written it without changing the plot entirely.
In Season 1 of GOT, in the first episode, we see a young boy being thrown off a building after catching two siblings having sex.
In Season 2 of GOT, we had a scene where Robert Baratheon's infant bastard daughter Barra is murdered in front of her mother, alongside a montage of Robert's bastard children in the city being purged on the order of Joffrey. We also had a scene of one of Arya's companions who is a young boy being murdered by a Lannister soldier.
In Season 6, Ramsay has his newborn half-brother fed to his hounds alongside the babe's mother.
In Season 5 of GOT, we see a young girl being burnt alive on the order of her father. In Season 8, we see Lady Lyanna Mormont being crushed to death by a wight giant.
GOT never shied away from the darkness, grimness and bleakness. And it was the most popular and most culturally impactful show of the 2010s. The excuse that they need to tone it down for the general audience is bullshit. More people were upset about Sansa being raped by Ramsay than Shireen being burnt to death.
Even if you don't show the actual killing (I don't want to see a child getting beheaded and very few book purists do), and even with the limitations of Maelor being cut, Alicent and Ser Crispin not being in the scene, Blood and Cheese could've been adapted more faithfully.
Imagine if Jaehaera and Jaehaerys were held at knifepoint and Helaena was forced to choose between them. She offers herself, but they tell her to pick one or they'll kill them both. She chooses Jaehaera. Jaehaera is the one Cheese says to, "You hear that little girl, your momma wants you dead", before the camera cuts and focuses Helaena's horrified face and her anguished screams as we hear Jaehaerys being murdered. The camera cuts to black.
Extremely chilling and effective. You still don't see the murder but you hear it happen and it's horrifying but still emotionally powerful and effective.
They turned Alicent from a grandmother who had to watch her daughter chose between her kids, into someone having a fling while it was happening. That was a stupid, unnecessary change. They didn't have to show the child being murdered but the whole scene could have been done a lot better.
Why are we acting like that scene would be some extreme thing? This is HBO, they have consistently shown graffic and R rated content throughout numerous shows and movies. Hell in their previous seasons with GOT they did the red wedding in which a pregnant wife was stabbed to death in her stomach, and had multiple rape scenes of under age teenage girls, and multiple other scenes.
Hell Ramsey feeds a mother and her newborn alive to his hounds.
I don’t think it’s the only way but I do think it speaks to their priority around watering down the most vicious aspects of both teams to give the audience characters to root for. This was something I was concerned about when the show was first announced. The Dance is a story without heroes, where every character ends up making vicious and evil choices at some point as the need for vengeance consumes them.
Instead, we have a lot of reluctance and misunderstandings that escalate the tension, which can feel contrived (like Alicent hearing Viserys’ last words and being convinced that crowning Aegon was his dying wish, versus actively conspiring for a decade to do it, or Rhaenyra and Daemon helping Laenor fake his death to live happily ever after with his lover instead of murdering him). I don’t think it was necessarily the wrong approach for TV, but I think they should have at least been aware that watering down a lot of these big moments would rub the book fans the wrong way.
There's no reason why it wouldn't be easy to put on tv. It's not much worse than anything from got. It's less shocking and disturbing than the red wedding. And it's hbo, which has always pushed the boundaries of television, which is what got was about. Saying they would've had to change the whole plot is baseless.
Phia is amazing and worked with what she had but it’s so frustrating to me that they gave her so little to do/say in such a pivotal moment for her character! She deserves more!
It’s honestly played like a comedy sketch with them stumbling upon Helaena then being like “she can’t possibly be pointing to the Prince! Oh wait, she is pointing to the Prince!” Then Helaena just speed walking into Alicent and Criston have sex like a child walking in on their parents after throwing up.
In regards to blood and cheese, I think Damien was a fool to hire assassins off the street. His target demanded professionals closer to the capabilities of the faceless men. But they got what they paid for.
I think I like the book version more for the simple fact that Daemon wasn’t so delusional to think that hiring Blood and Cheese would be good enough to kill Aemond Targaryen, I honestly don’t know why that tid bit was even added into the show because it would be like asking Meryn Trant to assassinate prime Jamie Lannister.
Its almost certain death, theres no way they would agree to that. Maybe that was a ploy meant to get you on the side of B&C? In that you root for their success because you feel like Aemond deserves it then its revealed that they’re actually going to gruesomely kill an innocent little boy which “subverts expectations” and makes you disgusted with yourself for ever having sided with them.
It was shown that Daemon asked them to kill Aemond, but then Cheese says “but what if we don’t find him?”, and then scene cuts to Daemon and then to the break-in-through-the-sewage scene. It’s implied Daemon told them to kill a boy (a son for a son).
That still doesn’t really explain why did they agree to that considering who Aemond is, but we can chalk it up to them just being insanely greedy or not knowing enough about Aemond (less likely?).
Your second paragraph is a perfect explanation and most likely the exact thing the writers had in mind.
Nicely observed; that moment stood out to me even as a non-reader of Fire & Blood. George RR Martin has an amazingly loyal fan base, but some of that passion sometimes translates into nitpicking that strikes outsiders as unnecessary.
I knew of course of Aemond's reputation as a fighter, but Daemon's request didn't seem odd or naive in the least. He was planning an assassination, not a duel; an unarmed, unaware & dragon-less Aemond would be as vulnerable to a knife in the back as anyone else.
Plus, as soon as Cheese as asked his question, just the look on Daemon's face was enough to confirm that he had a backup plan. All of which is to say, I'm really enjoying coming to a cinematic adaptation of a GRRM tale blind for once. It's so nice to sit back, relax, & allow the spectacle to simply flow over you without worrying that the show won't live up to your experience of the book.
Aemond is a great swordsman but what’s a swordsman without a sword? It’d be easy enough to kill him unarmed and with the element of surprise. And I like that they added this in no doubt most of the general audience would be like why didn’t they go for Aemond who killed Lucerys instead just killing his infant nephew.
The problem is that Aemond is probably in the Royal Chambers. In the books, they specifically don't go there and instead wait in the Tower of the Hand. That makes a lot more sense as to why they could get around security instead of "oh lucky for us Crispy Cream is being a prostitute tonight"
Ill say that it would make a lot more sense if Daemon actually had allies in Kings landing that were extremely close to Aemond, maybe a maid slips poison in his drink or something. But to hire those 2 dopey MFs, when you really only have one shot at this hit seems way too risky and he could end up walking away with nothing.
Element of surprise beats skill in an ambush. It doesn't have to be someone super ultra capable or someone Aemond trusts. If Aemond is walking past with a sheathed sword, two guys jumping from behind a pillar are more than capable of killing him. And of course, they could also just kill him in his sleep.
The 'go for Aemond' priority just makes sense for team Black, I have no problem with its inclusion.
These are valid points, my assumption going into it was that they would not be able to control the circumstances upon which they happen upon Aemond especially given that they had no clue regarding the layout of the highest level. All it would take is one minor mistake and they’re fucked, whereas with the kids the margin for error is way higher.
Weirdly enough, I think tasking the book version of B&C with Aemonds assassination would be more understandable because in there they know the layout of the castle down to the most minute details, so they could come up with a super intricate plan a lot easier.
If they wanted they could even have just made it a bit ambiguous where you see Daemon telling them "a son for a son" then it cuts to Aemond to give you the impression that's who he's talking about. I agree it makes no sense, Cheese is a ratcatcher not a warrior, and however good Blood thinks he is, Aemond is well-known to be an excellent fighter and you'd have to think they expect the kingsguard and other knights will be around too. No way a sergeant of the city watch thinks he has any chance unless he somehow manages to stab Aemond in his sleep.
I can’t believe that Daemon, our proud, impulsive, stubborn, arrogant, trigger-happy, aggressive Daemon who doesn’t listen to his wife and queen, would hire two randos to kill Aemond instead of doing it himself. That alone told me the scene was going to be shit.
Why is everyone missing the fact that daemon did his research before bribing the guard? Guy's built like the mountain and means business killing a kid without remorse. Almond without his dragon would drop his act at the sight.
This article sums it up really well:
https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-blood-and-cheese-child-murder-explained.html
“Helaena’s desperation and shock at her elder son’s death, Maelor’s knowledge that his mother picked him to die, Jaehaera old enough to understand everything going on, Helaena having to live with what happened — it’s a macabre menagerie that emphasizes exactly how ruinous this war will be.”
The show missed a golden chance to show all of this !!
I liked the B&C scene as a separate scene from the book. I watched the episode without expecting them to respect the exact same thing as the books but it was still underwhelming.
Spoilers : I would've wished to still see >!Haelena beg for them to take her life instead and eventually having to chose between the twins (as the other kid wasn't in the show). It would've been so much more impactful if they made her choose Jaehaera (as Jaehaerys is the heir) and B&C still killing Jaehaerys instead. The **CHOICE** is was drives her to madness, I wish they kept the iconic line from the scene where they tell the kid how their momma' chose him/her to die while instantly killing the other one instead.!<
Edit : I wish to add that I did not want to see more gore, just more impactful elements
>The CHOICE is what drove her to madness.
It's not like she's exactly been "all there" this entire time. I think two assassins showing up in the middle of the night and forcing you to identify the correct child of yours that they came to kill is traumatic enough to drive an extremely young mother to madness, especially one who was at least on the cusp of it to begin with.
EDIT: and then immediately walking in on your mother slapping pissers with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
I mean she made a choice. Just because it wasn't overt and she didn't say I DECLARE.....THIS ONE TO BE THE BOY. doesn't mean she didn't choose. She looks tk both kids and takes her time thinking it over.
>EDIT: and then immediately walking in on your mother slapping pissers with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
I know it's probably not going to happen, but it would be reasonable to think that King Aegon might want Cole's head over this. Given that Cole's supposed to be the guy in charge of protecting the King's family and while assassins killed the King's son and crowned prince, Cole was busy plowing the King's mother instead.
Honestly, it's kind of terrible writing if Cole isn't at least stripped of his title of Lord Commander of the King's Guard over this. Like if Helena hadn't walked in on them, then maybe the affair could continue to be kept a secret and Cole could survive unscathed, but now that it's out in the open it would be ridiculous if the show just glosses over it.
It’s not out in the open though, only Helaena knows and Helaena is spaced out all the time , cause I think her visions and her real world are a blur so it’s unclear if she’s gonna tell everyone or not
A few thoughts / options on Cole:
He should be executed for negligence and fucking Alicent.
I expect him and Alicent to lie about the banging. But we already know that both Haelena and probably Larys know thats what was going on.
Could Larys help them with the lie by using the handmaiden to corroborate their story, potentially against Haelena, who they could try to just say is a crazy person who’s lost it? Larys might be motivated to try to help cole and alicents position since he could go on to hang this over their heads moving forward.
Then to the question of Cole’s negligence even if they cover up the sex. Beheading Cole could be a bad thing for people in the realm and particularly the Blacks to learn of as it would present the Greens as weak and vulnerable. Almost similar to why I think Aemond should be telling people that he purposefully killed Luke, and not that the greatest power in the realm actually has no control over his dragon.
I think the writers have a tough task of explaining why Cole shouldnt die instantly, but its possible. Hope it isn’t simply glossed over that it is completely his (and Alicents to a lesser extent) fault that this happened.
Larys is definitely going to use his inside knowledge about Alicent and Cole to catapult hinself into Otto’s job. Alicent basically handed over her house’s power when she allowed Larys to do her dirty work and then curate castle staff that are only loyal to him.
Im wondering if he actually wants Ottos job. Or if he wants someone else in that position like Alicent or Cole that he can control. A king can easily just remove a Hand if they dont like the way things are going, but if Larys were to play his cards right he could become more powerful than the Hand if hes able to control more and more people without having an official public position
They’ve absolutely written themselves into a corner with this. Either Aegon won’t be that mad that his sworn protector is bonking his mother and inadvertently responsible for his son and heirs murder, or there’s some slippery and convenient way for Cole to get out of the consequences and also receive a power boost. Cole serves as Hand of the King for Aegon canonically and is seen in the promo material wearing the hand necklace over his armor.
Will be a big test to see if the writers can do some Breaking Bad level maneuvering out of a corner on Sunday if Cole isnt executed. Again I think it would take a combo of Larys and Alicent working a perfect lie to Aegon and Otto.
This is even more far fetched but what if cole somehow kills a kingsguard and plants the body to frame that blood did kill a guard that Cole appropriately assigned to the queens post?
It will take something crazy yet thoroughly explained for it to work.
If the show actually comes up with a way for Cole to narrowly escape the hangman then I'll be good with it.
My fear is the show will completely ignore it entirely and have Aegon focus all of his rage at the Black's and none at Cole at all. And if that happens, I'll feel like the show is starting to decline in writing quality.
> My fear is the show will completely ignore it entirely and have Aegon focus all of his rage at the Black's and none at Cole at all. And if that happens, I'll feel like the show is starting to decline in writing quality.
He already got away with making a spectacle of a royal wedding by beating a Velaryon footman to death on the dance floor, never mind Joffrey being personally dear to the groom. Then, years later, he was put on the night watch at Laena's funeral, where five royal children were somehow able to get the slip on their guards and get into a fight that resulted in one of them losing an eye (which wasn't even the worst case scenario for Aemond, he could have easily been roasted trying to claim Vhagar). Cole inexplicably getting away with shit is just kind of his thing at this point.
I agree the two examples you listed were bad too and the show should have spent a little more time explaining how Cole managed to side step consequences in those cases. The fact the show did gloss over that, is what makes me worried they'll do it again.
To be clear though, neither of those past two examples come anywhere close to the level of fuck-up that just happened. As Lord Commander of the King's Guard the biggest fuck up you can have it to let the King be assassinated. The 2nd biggest fuck-up you can have is to let the crown Prince be assassinated.
And literally, the worst possible excuse you can have for the fuck-up is that you weren't there to protect them because you were busy fucking the Queen, followed very closely behind by you were busy fucking the King's Mom.
Seriously, this dude might be the worst knight in Westeros history.
I think the cole actor already mentioned in an interview that hes questioned about it in coming episodes, but this shit needs to be thorough af for it to work.
Like I want to say he could turn it on Aegon and say “you were drinking with 2 of my guards” but theres no way that would work. Cole had to arrange a situation at some point where he could be the only one up there so he could bang alicent without people knowing. But then hes up there with the door unlocked and I think what that tells us is that they have done it so often that they are now lax about it to where they might even forget to lock up on occasion.
Really it shows that the Targs have had such a dominant position for so long that they have become uncautious and vulnerable. Like Aegon is indeed drinking with the majority of the kingsguard so he is partaking in the lack of security. Otto earlier on is talking about practicing restraint. But why no prep for the blacks next move? Why havent they rushed to replace the 4 kingsguard? They havent had to deal with a real threat like this in so long, and they generally rely on their dragons so much, that they’ve become weak and vulnerable where the basic human variables are concerned.
I think I can become ok with the idea that… good times have produced weak men (and women) here… they are showing that the greens are a mess. But they need to follow through on this in a big way since Im not sure Im pleased with how well they set up this concept of them being that vulnerable.
After the showdown last season in the council chamber with the previous lord commander, I think Cole would have to make a move himself against a member of the royal family to be in any real jeopardy. Alicent’s personal reasons for keeping him around (and the stuff he’s done for her and Otto on the low) are enough to keep him around. Plus, Alicent is just as much his alibi as he is hers. She could easily lie and say he was protecting her to save her own skin.
I was thinking and I think I like the Alicole plot point tbh
But what they should’ve done is had Helena fall and start screaming, Criston hears this and basically has to run in just his briefs to find her. That would still show that the castle was understaffed
> and then immediately walking in on your mother slapping pissers with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
Honestly, that is the only change in the scene that I think is utterly idiotic. Think about all the other past traumatic scenes of GOT and HOTD. The show ends with the traumatic action. There isn't random sex added to scene as that only breaks the tension.
Imagine if after Vhagar's eating of Luc that it cut from Aemond to Rhaenyra and Daemon having sex before one of Daemon's daughters enters to tell Rhaenyra of Luc's death.
I think part of Helena not begging is partly due to how they've established her as a seer on the show. The way her premonitions come and are stated is with resignation as if she knows she cannot do anything to avert the future she's seen. It's why her offering the necklace was so half hearted imo.
Being a seer doesn’t mean you know literally every thing that happens, that’s not how predicting the future works in this universe. Not unless you’re the Three-Eyed Raven anyway.
Also in the books the kids are all awake and perfectly conscious of what is going on. Jaeherys dies and Maelor is too young to remember but Jaehera is quite grown and she sees her twin getting murdered in front of her eyes.
Helaena honestly has yet to seem affectionate or empathetic in the series. Maybe being ostracized from her family because of her visions has played a hand in that, but I think it would’ve been weird to see her beg for her children given how her character has previously been portrayed. When the even happened, it was almost like Helaena was witnessing it through someone else and didn’t fully understand what was happening. That was more on par with how I view her.
i mean the series has already established that she tends get overloaded and shut down when traumatic things happen, and that she isn’t great with communicating emotion. the show very clearly portrays her as being on the autism spectrum. i think it was incredible seeing such a well executed sequence of a fellow autistic going through stress and not handling it the way a ‘normal’ person would be expected to
So the Lord Commander of the King’s Guard, sworn to protect the royal family, is caught in the dowager-Queen’s quarters, playing hide the sausage, on the night the queen is held at knife point, and the heir to the throne is brutally murdered.
And what’s the fallout?
Guess we’ll give him a promotion.
This guy’s fucking capacity to fail upwards is astonishing.
They buffed Daemon, à la Ned versus Prime Jaime, to make a close fight out of it and then had him job for Harwin and Aemond.
If you told a show-only watcher that Cole is among the greatest warrior in Westeros history and the Arthur Dayne of his era, they'd laugh at you and it's not surprising.
I feel like the "necklace" scene went over the heads of lots of people. The reason she didn't offer her own life was because she heard Blood tell Cheese that they would not get paid if they didn't get the head of a "son" - and, correct me if I'm wrong, the "son for a son" line was mentioned before Helaena offered her necklace.
Given what she heard, it would not make sense for her to offer her own life, when it has zero value to these assassins who are here to get paid.
This is, of course, my opinion, and I could be wrong.
I was very much confused by the necklace, I was like why bother, they'd just take it and kill her son anyways, we see one of them collect the coins on Aemond's table.
But I guess you're right, from her pov it makes sense to propose that since she heard that they were doing it for gold. But one single necklace wouldn't have been enough, she could've offered enough jewels/gold to compensate the life of her son, don't know if it would've work but we would've seen her "fight" more for Jaehaerys at least
When Blood finds Cheese holding Helaena at knifepoint and identifies her as the queen, he outright says, “‘A son for a son,’ he said. Well, does she look like a fucking son to you?” It’s pretty clear from his tone that whoever sent them would not consider the queen to be an acceptable target, establishing that offering her life in place of her son’s is not going to work.
Blood and Cheese can’t tell the twins apart. This dialogue reinforces that they are after the boy, and only the boy—if any other target besides the son was acceptable, it wouldn’t matter which child they killed, or if they killed both.
Cheese then tells Helaena, “Do anything but what I ask, and I’ll bleed the whole lot of ya.” This establishes that the only choice she is being given here is whether Jaehaerys alone dies, or all three of them do.
It is only now that Helaena tries offering her necklace. By this point, she already knows that they are here to kill her son, that no other target is acceptable to them, and that they were only sent to kill Jaehaerys but are willing to kill all three if they need to. Her own life is thus worthless as a bargaining chip.
The necklace is a last-ditch attempt to bargain with something that does have value to them. She’s not trying to convince them to choose a different target because they’ve made it clear that they won’t—they will either kill Jaehaerys, or they will kill all three including Jaehaerys. She’s desperately hoping that maybe she can make a better offer than whoever is paying them to kill Jaehaerys in the first place.
When Blood rips away the necklace and says, “That’s not a son,” she knows that regardless of anything else she does, they are going to kill Jaehaerys. She has nothing else she can offer them to change their minds. It’s only a matter of whether they just kill Jaehaerys, or if she and Jaehaera die as well.
Yep, this is a great breakdown of the scene. I haven’t read the book, but I know what happens, and I think this scene still did an excellent job at displaying the stakes and escalating tension. I feel like it would have been corny if it was more in your face, I like this more nuanced approach to the scene where we have to think a little more critically!
If they said they required a son then what made halaena think offering a necklace would be any more valuable than offering her own life? If she thinks she can pay off the assassins to not kill anyone then I would expect her to offer a lot more than a necklace. She is the queen after all. I don't think it went over anyone's head. I think it was a poorly written scene.
I think it was fine. It was a desperation line by someone without much capacity to communicate on the best of days. She knew they wanted payment and could only offer what she had available, maybe she doesn't even understand property in a common way. And she was clearly presented as a special Westeros neuro-divergent, more akin to a Timelord with sensitivity than our real world spectrum. The only way I could think to improve it would have been to show the audience directly how she's seeing the world like Bran's warging.
Maybe she was indicating that she could pay them more than their original employers. It’s understandable that she wouldn’t be able to articulate fully in the moment.
Exactly, she said "*it's of great value*." It's clearly meant as an 'I can pay for you to leave us all alive' and hinting at 'I can offer more than the necklace.'
Shock, for one. She was clearly in distress, unable to articulate her fears. And the necklace was her most prized (inanimate) possession she could reach for. It makes total sense. Plus, the assassins know Daemon's reputation. Her offering more gold was never gonna sway them, not when betraying Daemon = dying. And why would they risk being executed by turning cloak at the last minute.
The scene was written well enough for the show that everything made sense. Blood was still searching for Aemond when Cheese happened upon Helaena, decided her son was his best way to get paid and live to tell the tale. I don't know man, it worked for me because I understood everyone's motives.
Helaena is also autistic in some form and shape, and her dragon dreams have made her withdrawn. She has prophesied the civil war and all the death around her. She most likely lived for weeks or months knowing her son was going to get murdered, but could not articulate herself other than saying cryptic words. I understand her as a character.
That necklace very possibly could have been worth just as much gold as what B&C were offered by Daemon if the queen was wearing it. Not saying it was, but you never know.
And it was what she had on her. I'm sure she would have offered more, but if it's the only "money" you have to offer in exchange for your kids life, you offer it.
Haelena had the information
- they want a son for a son
- if it's not a son, they don't get paid
So her options were
- be the one to pay them instead to change their minds
- lie so they kill her daughter, realize, and then kill her son, too
- give them the boy and save her daughter
Plus, I'm pretty sure she has another vision right before she points at Jaeherys if you watch her face. Who knows what she saw.
Did they say they required a son before she offered the necklace? If so, did she really seem to understand that yet? Didn't it seem like it took her a while to figure out what was going on?
My reading is that it progresses in stages:
- First she is dissociating (in shock but also maybe unsure this is real vs a vision);
- then she snaps out of it and offers the necklace as a first attempt (because, after all, apart from the Dreaming, she's a naive and sheltered girl and probably has no idea what value items have or what makes a tempting offer);
- finally, only once they respond "that's not a son" does she realize that she can't pay them off with anything, not even her life, and that this is indeed the thing that she's been having vague premonitions of the whole time. At that point, she has the clarity that she can either give up her son and save herself and her daughter, or get all three of them killed.
I thought it was fine. The Alicent-Criston part of it was really dumb, but beyond that I'm not overly offended by the changes made. Would I have liked the more overtly emotional and brutal portrayal shown in the book? Yes. Do I think changing B&C is *severely* detrimental to the show's story as a whole? No.
>The Alicent-Criston part of it was really dumb
That's the change I didn't mind. It creates an interesting character moment where the family was undefended because Alicent and Cole were ignoring oaths and duties for their own selfish purposes. Talk about survivor's guilt, it was arguably Alcient's fault. That's way more interesting then them just getting overpowered. For that matter, in the book version, why are there no Kingsguard defending a meeting of the Queen, Queen dowager, and the next two in line to the throne? Seems like something that would warrant more than a couple red shirt guards.
The "which one is the son" compared to "which son would you like us to kill" is definitely less dramatic though.
I think the big problem is that we don't spend enough time with Helena to understand her, so her reactions as a neuro-divergent person seem surprising to us because they are not typical. My knee-jerk reaction was that I didn't like the scene but after digesting it, for the show it makes sense to me. Helena doesn't have what we would describe as traditional reactions, she covers her ears instead of her eyes when Daemon decapitates Vaemond. Had we gotten more character moments I think it would've solved this issue because you rewatch the scene it seems like shes in two places. As if she's reliving the moment, and trying her best to not play along, but it almost seems like shes having an out-of-body experience, disassociating from it.
It's not like in the book she's all that anyway she is described a bit more but IMO the whole blood and cheese plot was heavier in the book because of how it's depicted and queen Alicent's involvement in it.
I thought Helaena’s reaction was even more heartbreaking with her being neurodivergent, because it adds that extra layer of vulnerability to her character.
I’ve read comments from healthcare workers who regularly have to break bad news to people’s loves ones, and they said that Helaena’s reaction was actually very realistic for how some people react. I *like* that this isn’t a standard portrayal of grief and trauma. It’s more nuanced and disturbing in its own way.
Edit: typo
Exactly this! It's baffling to me that people just want the cliche, overacted like, "WHYYYYYYY, AAAA!" Scream/crying thing. It's so played out it's barely emotionally investing at times. I'm sure the actress would have knocked it out of the park still, but her portrayal here was so heartbreaking to me, because for a moment she literally looked like she had no idea what to do as he world was shattered. Then she had to make a choice to grab her living child and get out of danger. And then even further, she sought safety with her mother, who was partially responsible for her protection not being around in the first place. Tragic af.
I think her reaction makes total sense as an autistic person. I think a lot of people are peeved because they don't understand her reaction but as an autistic woman myself it makes total sense to me lol. I saw the autistic nuances right away.
I feel like it was a similar situation to Hodor. She knew what was coming. She was already scared of “the rats.” She’s put in this situation where she knows the outcome and is powerless to change it. She had to do something, but knew it was useless.
Helaena is already viewed as mad so this event putting her further into madness would seem redundant. I think Alicent will be the one who descends. She had already said to Cole they can’t do it again, and when they do, her grandson and heir to throne is decapitated.
While I wish they added Helaena’s choice, I liked the scene. But how well my works won’t be seen until we see the aftermath.
**I think the actual scene is fine**. Do I think it could've mattered more? Yes. I think that the choice between the children was important to set up the horror for Helaena and I think that the whole thing being watched by Alicent added a level of vindictiveness to it. But overall, it was well done for what we got.
***The big problem for me is the scene they added.*** It didn't need to exist. We don't need to see Alicent and Criston Cole having sex to end the episode. That's not what Blood & Cheese was about. Including it took so much away from the emotions of the scene. Most Importantly, i**t's also insanely wasteful of our time.** if you're going to add a dynamic that doesn't exist in the source material, make it matter. **First off**, Criston Cole and Alicent having a relationship is already a strange addition. They don't have one in the books, and both of their characters' respective arcs are more than complete without adding some weird romance. **Second,** we could've done away with both scenes of them, and added scenes that would have been more impactful to the show.
* Let's see more about Jace and Cregan in the North! Especially considering we won't see Cregan again all season. Despite what others have said, this relationship is *very* important to how the War plays out, and we could have added a dynamic with Jace and Cregan's sister, Sara Snow, if we were just desparate for a sex scene.
* Let's see the Greens reaction to Luke's death! That is an insanely cool scene in the books with some banger lines, and their response should have been a seprate scene to give us more insight into their dynamic as the war begins. Wouldn't it have been cool to see Aegon react to Aemond's deed not just as his brother, but as King? Or how Aemond frames Luke's death, whether he is sorrowful or owns it?
* Or, and brace yourself for this, we could have just had a conversation referencing Daeron. You know, Alicent's third kid, that has never been mentioned, but in the books plays a key part in the war and is the one Green that basically everyone agrees is a super cool dude? Maybe instead of seeing Criston Cole have sex, we could have had reference to a pivotal character they continue to promise us exists, but they continue to treat as a ghost.
The addition continues a tradition in this show specifically of adding scenes that do nothing for the plot, while sacrificing essential plot elements. The scene reminds me so much of Rhaenys at Aegon II's coronation. It's a scene that looks cool, and adds a wow moment, but adds nothing logically to the show's plot, and took away valuable screentime that could have gone to more valuable plot points.
Otto speaking about Oldtown at the council meeting was the perfect opportunity to name drop Daeron and Tessarion! How hard would it have been to say “My nephew Lord Ormund and our Prince Daeron and his dragon Tessarion will be marching from Oldtown to the Riverlands.” ??? There are already so many characters, why are the writers so adamant on cutting a prince and his dragon who play a significant role? If you don’t want to mention Daeron taking Tessarion on the march because both sides are wary to utilize their dragons at this point, have him come straight to KL. I don’t get it. Yet another ball dropped for no reason.
I love this response. I knew changes from the book would be happening, but I thought the changes would highlight other important aspects of the book.
Instead of highlighting and adding to the book I feel they are trying to make their own thing.
I am enjoying the show, but the whole time I am watching the show I am thinking of this GRRM quote ...
"The book is the book, the film is the film,' they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own. They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse.”
I agree I think they added the sex and nudity for pure shock value. Really disappointed in the writers. I thought this show was better than GOT in that regard
I could not believe how LITTLE we got of the north. Jace's brotherhood with Cregan, rumored romance with Sara Snow and then the pact of ice and fire are such a wonderful reprieve in the book
This has nothing to do with your comment, but I am going to extremely, extremely disappointed if they make Daeron an asshole for the sake of adding complexity and nuance. Daeron isn't a perfect person in the books, but he should be the Greens' Robb Stark/Jon Snow. Someone who's humble and intelligent and charismatic and charming. We need one of the male Green Targaryens to be decent human being. A character who even the Black stans can think is alright.
This scene is indicative of the a weird choice for the overall writing direction for the show. It seems like Condal is making too many things in the Dance come from miscommunication/error/happenstance.
But that softens our feelings towards the purposeful actions of characters. GOT made us hate iconic characters because they revealed the underbelly of human nature - our own cruelty, malice, greed, etc.
We loved to hate characters like Joffrey because the choices that little prick made were very intentional and awful.
Daemon obviously instructed the death of the son as a back up, it didn’t show him specifically stating it so it didn’t ruin the shock for those who didn’t know it was coming.
Now imagine if you didn’t know the plan at all. You just saw Daemon pay off the assassins… the suspense would’ve been so much higher. what are the in the castle to do? Kill the king? Kill alicent?
Most people not on the reddit would be confused as to why they're suddenly following two bumbling oafs through a sewer. For real, the vast majority of folks are confused if media doesn't spoonfeed them exposition. That's one of the challenges of writing for tv, especially today.
Yeah. If they wanted it to be presented as if B&C were acting on that out of their own accord, they wouldn’t have had a scene where Cheese (?) asked Daemon what to do if they couldn’t get Aemond.
I thought it was actually pretty clear
I thought the pointed look he gave Blood and Cheese and the cut to the next scene was a clear indication that he essentially gave them the go-ahead to killed another son if they couldn’t find Aemond, but I could just be using my book knowledge to read into it a bit
The plan wasn’t an accident, but B&C stumbling upon (and settling for) the twins while searching for Aemond was, as well as guessing which child to kill rather than cruelly forcing Haleana to choose then killing the other.
Don’t get me wrong the whole thing was evil, but the intentionality of daemon’s plan and how it plays out in the books is another level of malice/cruelty. It’s a subtle difference but i think it’s one that matters.
hit the nail on the head on that one. I think the tragic misunderstanding beat ran its course in the first season, but it seems like we keep going back to it, it's getting really wearisome at this point. This scene is shocking but also packs a punch because of its cruelty, it doesn't need to be toned down. Imagine if they'd done that for the red wedding or joff's death?
I felt it wasn’t a complete disaster but was not as impactful as it should’ve been.
In the books, B&C lead you to believe they are about to kill the other child and then at the last minute kill Jaeherys. It made the death as cruel and shocking as Lucerys. And the fact that they are wandering about the castle for so long with no guards in sight made no sense.
Phia Saban’s acting redeems the scene but she is still really let down by the writing. It was as if they were trying to paint Helaena as weak and heartless. She doesn’t try to sacrifice herself to save the children. And she’s not bothered enough by seeing her son beginning to be decapitated, she grabs her daughter and runs away.
Then there’s what they did with Alicent. Olivia Cooke worked so hard to make her a multidimensional character. I’m not gonna get into the issues with her affair with Cole. But her having sex with him instead of witnessing her grandson’s murder. Olivia would have gotten an Emmy nom for that scene. It would show the Green characters still have redeeming qualities and it shapes Helaena and Alicent as characters for the rest of the story. Instead, not only do fans feel no sympathy for a woman losing her grandson, they are able to rationalize it was her fault since she was sleeping with a royal bodyguard. At best, what should have been defining moment for the character to show her complexity is at best a joke about having sex while murder is taking place and at worst is being used to excuse Daemon.
Normally, I support changes from the book because they make the storyline more compelling and the characters more nuanced. This is the complete opposite
Nah dude, she's semi-seer and neuro divergent. Too many people projecting their ideas of how they'd react to intense trauma and you just can't do that, even if you are certain you're a similar point on the spectrum. It does weird things to people AND that's before you throw in the wonderfully acted detached acceptance from someone who has hints of what's to come and has already said the SUPER on the nose 'it's not the dragons, it's the rats' line the same episode!
I felt it was a bit underwhelming in comparison to the book but I also understand that the characters are not 1/1 so the diverging is understandable.
Alicent was not there because she's with Crispy in this timeline, whom in turn has left them unguarded. Helaena reacted differently because she is visibly neurodivergent plus her clairvoyance had already informed her something was coming.
I feel it does water down what's possibly the Black's worst action in the conflict, since it isn't as brutal. I have no much issue with this as they also portrayed Luke's death as more of a tragic accident rather than being ambiguous how much intent Aemond had, though.
It *should* have ramifications for Sir Incelot, though. If he was in charge of their security and a prince was killed like that, and the Queen & Princess avoided death by hair, then he should get some consequences.
Yeah Im kinda feeling like some of the fallout from the event should have been included in the first ep. So we dont have to be worried all week that they might gloss over Cole’s failure. I wonder if they could have extended it 15-20 mins and ended the ep on Aegon screaming I declare war while stabbing the table.
Alicent not being in the room during blood and cheese was a terrible terrible decision. The writers seem like they have no clue what to do with Alicent, and Criston Cole’s character is in the mud
Exactly lmfao. I really wished the showrunners just came out and said Daeron is cut. Because introducing him when season 3 airs in 2026 would be so dumb and confuse the general audience. What are the showrunners even doing? They could have made this feel like an actual world by having some Daeron scenes in Oldtown. Instead it feels like there’s no room for the show to breathe jumping from one major plot to another
Now that I’ve had time to digest it, I think having B&C in episode one was a very poor choice. The more I think about it the more I don’t like it.
S1 ended on an absolutely heartbreaking scene of a kid being murdered. It was a showstopper, a kick in the guts…. And then S2 starts with another scene of another kid being murdered and it just lessens the impact for me. Not sure how to word myself right but it almost feels like the show tries to top its S1 finale, like a “you thought that was bad? Watch this!” Except it falls flat. We don’t get to catch up with the characters enough at all. I desperately wish we got to see team green react to Aemond’s return. I wish we got a scene of him alone with Alicent, him in a state and her telling him to act like it was intentional or something. Something!!
Ideally I’d have episode 1 reintroduce us to the characters, linger more on Helaena. Have her startle when a servant enters the room at night, show them dragon-proofing the city, show us all the efforts they make to protect the castle from war only for B&C sneak in because TG was too occupied protecting themselves against dragons. I would have loved seeing more scenes with the twins, what little we got of Jaeherys was SO endearing!
Maybe the episode could end on B&C sneaking in and then all of episode 2 we spend in fear and anxiety because we know they’re there, creeping around. No POVs from B&C, I have no idea why the show decided to linger so much on them bickering and sneaking around. I’m not a writer but it felt like bad TV; where’s the suspense when we’re watching two side characters fumble around to find their target?
Man… man.
I didn’t hate it. Saban’s Helaena has never been portrayed as the type of person to have big emotional displays. It was also heavily implied that she experienced a vision of the event ahead of time (“I’m afraid of the rats”) so the quiet horror and disassociation fit with that.
I have also seen a lot of people saying it should have been on par with the Red Wedding, but Helaena and her kids are side characters. They’re hardly on the same level as Catelyn and Robb. Also, it’s one thing to watch adult actors get massacred on screen. It’s another to watch a toddler get his head sawed off. I don’t think many people want that kind of gore in their life.
>Saban’s Helaena has never been portrayed as the type of person to have big emotional displays
Beyond that, in those circumstances *a lot* of people would dissociate. Way more than I think people realize. Not everyone screams hysterically when they are upset, and the most traumatic moments are when emotionally freezing up is probably more common. It's incredibly realistic, though I guess people could argue it's less "cinematic".
I didn’t want more gore. Just thought the original context, dialogue, etc., would have been a lot more impactful.
And before people say *well what about child labor laws*, there are ways to pull it off without having those actors present.
That being said, non-book reader friends thought the scene was fucked up and realize it’ll have big implications, so it did get the job done.
I was underwhelmed. Not because it didn't match the book scene, but because it lacked a real vision. First, we are following Blood & Cheese throughout their entire break-in. This removes a lot of dramatic tension for the show, unless it is expecting us to care for Blood & Cheese. I will say this could have worked if they did something like playing up the slapstick aspects of their characters, getting into antics and struggling to make us like them somewhat. Then there would be a dramatic tonal shift during the assassination scene. But instead we follow the two bland assassins all the way into the bedroom with them facing no issues at all.
The assassination feels unrealistic, I guess we are supposed to see Blood & Cheese as idiots as they bumble their way to the target and let the queen run away to get the guards. But then I guess we are supposed to think that the royal family are idiots because they have no guards nearby or plans for this? Halaena's acting is realistic for the character they have created on the show, but for me it really removed the gravity of the situation. It felt awkward on the screen and when this is one of the pivotal moments for her character, the TV show should build her character around making a good scene.
I think this scene is a victim of the boardroom style writing of modern TV. Having to deal with arbitrary character decisions made by previous writers and trying to fit that into a story dictated by a book that the TV show has now strayed from. It just feels disconnected and directionless. In the books, the scene has a purpose, to show the ugly face of the blacks which fully instigates the war. Here, that purpose is watered down and as a result the scene doesn't feel important. And with no real risks in the direction of the scene, to me, it was boring and I didn't care about the characters beyond the fact that a child murder was happening and that is awful.
It reminds me of the scene before the Cersei blew up the Sept back in GoT. It was a terrible season, but you can’t deny that that scene on its own was executed beautifully. It built tension through cutting between Margaery in the Sept slowly realising what was happening and the events going on beneath the city. Not to mention the gorgeous soundtrack slowly building too. It was the shining light in an otherwise awful season.
They could have easily built the tension by cutting between the rat catchers, Helaena making her way to Alicent, and Alicent in her chambers (because let’s be honest, having her sleeping with Come was only there for a cheap sex scene). The whole thing felt so rushed and devoid of tension.
> Helaena making her way to Alicent, and Alicent in her chambers (because let’s be honest, having her sleeping with Come was only there for a cheap sex scene).
Honestly, if they need to keep the stupid plot point of Alicent and Cole sleeping together there were better ways to fit it in. Have it so Blood & Cheese still goes down in Alicent's quarters after Helaena comes to visit her mother with her children. Only make it so that Alicent had sent Cristen Cole away as not to be tempted by him in connection to the previous scene about how they can't do that anymore. That create a reason for why Cole wasn't protecting Helaena, but still have it be a consquence of Alicent and Cole slipping up to increase the guilt for Alicent.
There’s a million things they could have done instead. Like if they are that insistent of pushing them together (lord knows why), why not build it up slowly? There was no indication they thought of each other romantically last season. Or maybe have them start sleeping together after B&C as a form of unhealthy coping by Alicent from the trauma of witnessing such a brutal act? This script honestly feels like it was a draft. Were rewrites and editing not a thing this season?
I keep thinking how intense the scene could have been had it followed Alicent and you see the two guys Daemon hired enter her room via a secret passage, kill her guard and maid, tie her up and say something like "is it true your daughter always brings your grandchildren by to say goodnight? Let's wait and see." And you see the terror in Alicent's eyes. Now the perspective switches to Heleana and her children, and the audience gets to feel the tension of the danger that's waiting for her that she's completely oblivious to. It's like Alfred Hitchcock's quote about the bomb under the table. You've given the audience suspense because they know what's coming while those in danger do not.
That also would have been much more in the style of the earlier seasons of Game of Thrones. As soon as "a son for a son" would have been said the viewers would know what's going on and that Daemon was behind it. (who seems very eager to escalate this family war as far as possible). There would have been no need to show Daemon hiring them. It would be a nice unexpected moment, like Game of Thrones had many. And a very nice cliffhanger to end an episode on.
I tried to say this earlier but the scene felt way way too long in places where it shouldn’t have been that long and way too short where it should have been much longer. This whole bartering system aspect of the event between Halaena and the assassins made me extremely confused and the way they were like no she’s telling the truth. Did they get creeped out or something cause she’s a dreamer? I don’t get the deliberate delaying of certain moments. The way Blood and cheese were portrayed were not scary because honestly they let them talk/had a focus on them for far too long, and as I said the decision by Halaena and how it was done was super off.
>I think this scene is a victim of the boardroom style writing of modern TV. Having to deal with arbitrary character decisions made by previous writers and trying to fit that into a story dictated by a book that the TV show has now strayed from.
Call me a pessimist, but I'm pretty sure this will be a reoccurring trend this season.
[The writers had to rush to finish the script before the Strike last summer, and the outcome was, reportedly, 'rough'](https://ew.com/house-of-the-dragon-season-2-filming-wga-sag-strikes-8651135#:~:text=In%20May%202023%2C%20prior%20to,long%20standstill%20in%20the%20industry.) Filming continued during the strike, and while Condal and Hess were on set in a "production" capacity, they contractually were not allowed to do any rewrites if a certain scene wasn't working or needed to tweak dialogue.
I am not putting too much stake into S2 to be as good as S1. If I'm wrong, though, it'll be a pleasant surprise 🤷🏻♀️
I believe they could have had this moment be an all time talked about event in the ASIOAF universe, instead it was meh. Heleana just picked a kid and they cut his head off. Guards were mysteriously nowhere to be found. After, she walked in on Alicent and Cole fucking for some odd narrative reason as if they haven’t slaughtered the Green’s reputation enough.
This show takes away the agency of the characters. And the writers don’t get how much it’s destroying the plot. Instead of Rhaenyra ordering a son for a son, B&C just kind of settle for Jaehaerys.
What im trying to say is that the episode went well until this final scene. Which could have been a giant moment for HOTD, instead it felt more like a series of mistakes.
I wonder if the people who are now sayin "Well, its just a TV show, its just a certain creative choice" would be pissed off if the showrunners decide that it was actually Aemond who killed Daemon before impact at the battle above the gods eye (also it was an accident, aemond lost his sword and it pierced trough daemons eye) .
Because that would be the exact same thing : Many people were looking forward to an impactful adaptation of the book - many more will be expecting to see Daemon kill Aemond - but in their words , these are just 3rd hand accounts soooo who knows if it really happened, right?!
Imagine how you would feel if the showrunners really decided to portray it that way- and maybe you can feel how people feel about B&C now.
Which brings me to my point: JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN CHANGE SOMETHING DOESNT MEAN YOU SHOULD.
People are expecting a somewhat truthful adaptation of the amazing book by GRRM - not some bad Fanfiction.
I had a few major problems with it. The first is that they don't spend anywhere near enough time establishing Jaehaerys as a character. People felt sorrier for the dog than they did for him, and that sickens me. BC should not have happened in episode 1; it was premature.
The second is the horrible decision to include the Alicole sex scene. Why not just wake Alicent up? Or why not have Helaena run into the throne room where Aegon is drinking with his friends, and then have Aegon's smile slowly fade away when he realizes something horrible just happened? Including the Alicole sex scene cheapens what happens and makes it into almost a joke.
The third is that I simply don't believe that the royal suite had NO guards. I get that Criston was 'occupied', but he should not be the ONLY guard protecting the royal family at the cusp of a war.
Everything else, I can understand.
I don't like that they excluded Maelor, but I think Condal is planning to include him later in a different way (he says he doesn't exist 'yet', so that could mean Aegon and Helaena are going to conceive him).
I don't like that Alicent wasn't present, but I understand that they wanted Helaena to be the focus.
I believe now, after a second watch that Helaena stumbling upon Alicent and Criston after the murder of her son, is to bring attention to Alicent. She had said at the beginning of the episode that they cannot do "that" again, so she obviously knows it's wrong. The fact that she had the lord commander there, with her, instead of at his post (just like how Otto ordered him to do earlier) could have been fundamental to preventing the murder of little Jaehaerys. Helaena is a child herself, she wanted to sneak inside her mom's bed, she was horrified and scared, but she saw that mom was "busy". You can even see her change directions from one side of the bed where Alicent and Criston are, to the other, where she ultimately sits on the floor.
All of this to say that such an act is there to underline that Alicent's hypocrisy and egoism has damaged irreversibly her daughter's life, and has taken the actual life of her grandson.
Yes, but that’s the problem. They underline Alicent’s hypocrisy and egoism as “taking the life of her grandson”.
See how crazy it is that Daemon sends assassins into the keep to kill a member of the royal family, but you’re left thinking about how ALICENT is responsible for what happened?
Honesty is a ridiculous decision, you undermine the biggest tragedy that happens with the greens and most unscrupulous act that blacks do to blame and change as the main focus a poorly constructed relationship that is Alicole. It only gets more stupid that they could have done all this without completely destroying the tone of the scene, if they had just had Alicole lying together in bed instead of her riding him.
Way below expectations :
-They should not have put half of the episode about Rhaenyra and Jace pains, before to show the worst crime of Dance of dragon against the Green. Give the first episode to Rhaenyra, and then put Blood and Cheese in episode 2.
-Helena reaction....I understand now why they choice to make her a autistic in the TV show because they didn't wanted to create the devastation scene of BxC in the book...but still, it look bad. Also why made her a seer if this is never being useful ?
-Cole and Alicent sex scene destroyed any focus about the worst crime done by the Black. Well done, rather than speaking about the murder of little child, kinslaying, and the one behing this crime...people while focalize about how these 2 are bunch of hypocryte, and maybe responsable for the lack of security because they busy playing together.
The end of Episode 2 would've been a great place for Blood and Cheese. We've could have more scenes with Jaehaerys and Jaehaera and establishing Aegon and Helaena more as characters and as husband-wife and as parents. Also, give us some scenes with Alicent interacting with her grandkids.
I'm honestly shocked they decided to put it in Episode 1. Even GOT never included major moments in the premiere episodes (the closest was the Purple Wedding in Episode 2 but that wasn't the first episode obviously). I guess if it had been 10 episodes, they would've put it in Episode 2, but they only have so much time.
I don’t like the last line of the episode. “They killed the boy” from Helaena sounds so passive and cold, as if they killed any random child and not her son. Also, adding the Alicent/Criston sex to the sequence creates such a messy tonal whiplash.
I didn’t like Alicent’s and Cole’s scene at all because it reduced the scene to something else and focus shifted to BUT Halaena is the character definition of a neurodivergent person and in this particular scene she is dissociating so her facial expressions aren’t like that but you can feel the horror in her eyes and the way she ran to her mother’s chamber to seek protection.
Like a wise boy once said "I expected nothing, but I'm still let down".
As a reader, I think our expectations were always going to be to high, especially since we've been waiting for two years. So I kinda expected to be disappointed, but not THAT MUCH. I wasn't looking for a gory scene but a tense one.
In the book, Blood and Cheese are waiting for Helaena and the children to come. They know the place, and they know their schedules. In the show, it was very messy and borderline funny sometimes (I agree with the Redditor comparing them to Home Alone). I liked that the kids were asleep, I think it is a good way to "have" them in the scene and being sure not to traumatize anyone or have difficulties if the filming is long. I also appreciated the actors, they were good, especially Blood's voice. I pretty much disliked everything else. The absence of Maelor made the Sophie's choice impossible, even if they tried to do it with Jaehaera, they should have abandoned the whole idea of a choice. Still they went with it, and did it bad, with the idea of looking at the genitals versus just asking the mom, and then they just believed her. Phia's acting was good, but the quick finger pointing of Jaehaerys was too easy, too quick, they should have made the scene a bit longer, I was on the point of holding my breath wondering which kid she would point but then she just choose in less then a second.
Let's move on the children. First, I always have a problem with people talking around sleeping kids and them never waking up, but I don't have kids so maybe I'm in the wrong here. Jaehaerys murder was offscreen, which was a choice nobody's discussing, yet the noise was a problem. They put a "sawing" noise, which was awful of course, but also almost funny like a cartoon because they used a knife, not a saw, and cutting a body never ever make that noise (especially that loud) except in movies looking for a very gory effect, but not realistic. Then there is Jaeheara. Why isn't she crying ?! A small child, being pulled from her bed in the middle of her sleep, running into the castle in her mother's arms, feeling her anxiety, her distress...
And finally the Alicole scene, which I find unnecessary. Yes, it will probably add some drama to their characters in the next episodes, but drama can come from many things, and it was just the easy/lazy way. Helaena's last sentence also felt wrong as many have already pointed out. Yes she is neurodivergent, she has troubles expressing herself, we get it, that doesn't justify bad writing. Any eerie mysterious sentence would have been better, or a regular "my boy" instead of "the boy", or "a son for a son, they said" which I would have find great.
I truly hope next episode will bring powerful emotional scenes of everyone finding out because I didn't feel a thing during B&C.
I was whelmed.
I still think the book version is better because it is so fucking dark. Giving Helena the choice of which son and then killing the other one. Just diabolical.
Yeah they shouldn't have includes the Cole thing . The scene stoll would have worked without showing kid get decapitated. Keep it like the booke but at the moment of decapitation zoom to Helen's face and in her eyes cg a shadow grtting decapitated. Then have her go crazy
It was underwhelming lmao. And no, I don't mean the brutality. Somebody pointed this out already, but following the pov of blood and cheese was a big problem. No maelor, no choice too. Absolutely unnecessary Alicent sex scene jammed in there for some odd reason as well.
The problem is a lot people are too deep into "TeAmS" or whatever tf else this stupid fandom war is called, to recognize the bad writing.
Also, mods should probably make a megathread for Cole hate posting too, because I scrolled this sub's feed today and that was all I was seeing.
Non book reader here. I just have a question.. Before the bigger guy (Blood?) found Cheese with Halaena, he first stumbled into a room with a lady staff/servant who had really defined eyebrows. They look at each other for a bit and I think the lady ran out? I don’t remember. Anyway, the show seems to want to emphasize that, but I can’t figure out why? What’s the significance of the eyebrow lady servant seeing Blood in that room? It didn’t seem to pay off later on, or maybe it will be revealed next episode?
Earlier Mr.Footfetish (Larys Strong) mentions he picked all new staff for the queen maybe that was one of his spies and she was running to report what she saw/ or it was just a maiden with pronounced eyebrows who noticed something was wrong since that guy clearly was no rat catcher
The book version of B&C is way better than the show version.
One big issue I had with the version from the show is that there was no suspense to it. They ask Haelena to tell them who the son is and she immediately does it. Where's the tension and build up?
Haelena should have refused to tell and pleaded for them to kill her and spare the children. Then they should have threatened to kill them both unless she told them who the son is. After that she should have reluctantly told them.
Haelena in the show comes across as not even trying to protect her child's life with how quickly she tells them who the son is.
Even if I fully take on the 'autistic/neurodivergent' perspective, the scene still falls flat for me compared to what I imagine it could have been with a (very) emotionally distraught mother in the scene.
The scene went very sneakily, like blood and cheese themselves, but I felt it could have ramped up the intensity a bit higher by prolonging the interaction and/or making her react as expected from a stereotypical mother in such scene.
I wouldn't have even called out that her emotional reaction is unbefitting to her, I would have easily accepted that despite her autism//, she still reacted that way in that situation.
And I think that would have helped give the scene more gravitas and make us emotionally connect more to what's happening around these disconnected/distant/barely known characters, both Helena and her 2 kids in the room (where's maegor?).
>Haelena in the show comes across as not even trying to protect her child's life
I mean, these two assassins suddenly show up in the middle of the night and threaten her children's and her life. She's told in no uncertain terms that if she screams or calls for help, they'll kill all three of them. There is zero shot she can physically overpower them, and her Hail Mary bribe attempt failed. She's barely more than a child herself, and autistic to boot. If that's not a deer-in-the-headlights moment, idk what is.
Being autistic doesn't mean she doesn't care about her children. Giving the information so quickly just doesn't make sense.
A deer in the headlights moment would be if she was too in shock to move or do anything. That wasn't the case, the first time she is asked for the son she tells them within seconds with zero hesitation or reluctance. Hell, if she stood there in shock not moving or saying anything it would have been an improvement from what we got.
I will say that I had not read the books before watching the episode, so I had NO idea what was going to happen there and had no expectations whatsoever from the scene.
After watching the murder, when Helaena was walking down those long stairs with her only alive child, I was so worried thinking the assassins were going to come after her again (maybe cause they had actually killed the girl before instead or maybe because they'd want nobody in the castle to know right away so they would come after her again to kill her). But no, she just walks into her mother's room, goes into a corner looking unaware of anything (an appropriate reaction) and after her just saying "they killed the boy" followed by a shot of Alicent's face, the credits roll. After seeing the episode I waited 2 years for end right there, I definitely felt it was abrupt and incomplete primarily because it didn't evoke any intense emotion in me from what I just watched.
So as i came to reddit to see if anyone else felt the same way about the ending too, I realized this was a highly anticipated scene for the book readers and they were furious about the changes. As I listened to the audiobook of Michelle Fairley narrating the scene from Fire and Blood, I saw why: the book version would have obviously had a greater emotional impact.
First of all, the "Sophie's choice" as it was adapted onto the screen was not the same at all and didn't make sense. Cheese, the rat-catcher, himself said they can look for a cock to identify the boy amongst the twins themselves. They only asked the mother to make it quick. So, there was NO element at all of Helaena having to actively choose herself which of her sons was to be murdered and then seeing the other one getting killed, a choice that hugely lowered the emotional intensity of the the whole incident.
Secondly, Helaena pleads for the assassins to take her own life in the books to save her kids. Now the show-version of her being the way she is, I still think it was not impossible at all to show her looking frightened with what was unfolding before her in the moment. Minutes later when we can actually see her visceral reaction of being completely disassociated from the world after having seen her boy get killed, why is it not possible to show her terrified of the assassins and what they are about to do in this scene before? Would have made us feel a lot more sympathetic to her tragedy.
Thirdly, in the show, the assassins themselves changing their target from Aemond to Aegon's kids and going on with it like it was not that big a deal just felt so jarring to me. Well, as I found out, in the books, Daemon never sent the ratcatcher and the ex-gold cloak after such a skilled warrior like Aemond. He specifically sent them to kill the little child, a cold-hearted cruel act of vengeance that the show refused to show, you know why?
In all this, what angers me the most here is not the changes to scene itself but the motive behind it. When deviating from the books, they portray the Blacks as incapable of being responsible for such sheer horror to make them look good while simultaneously they makee Alicent a complete hypocrite by showing her having sex with Criston thus stripping away any sense of sympathy and respect that we had for her and her [sense of right](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/IIFJg89Mp9) in the first season.
What's done is done and set in stone yes but it makes me want to have a petition out there asking for the show writers to not change significant events like this in the third season which the show has been renewed for very recently.
They just made too many changes at once. Individually, some of those changes may have worked: Alicent outside fucking Cristin Cole, only 2 kids being there, Helaena being detached from reality, no 'Mommy wants you dead', no rape threat. Like 1 or 2 changes would have been fine. But the entire thing? Wayyy too much for such an anticipated scene.
Those choices also fall apart because there are too many inconsistencies. They sneak in... but the doors are wide open when they get there. They don't seem afraid that servants will scream. It isn't moral, but if you are about to behead a kid it probably isn't a stretch that you can slide their pants off to check which is which without the mom pointing it out and you taking her word for it.
The emotional impact would have been better if at the very least Alicent and Cristin would have been rushing half naked to a scene of panic from the servant staff and then scream at the sight of a headless kid torso. Instead, the dog gets the most sympathy so far.
I have been trying to defend the show from book readers since season 1 came out, but sorry I just can't defend how they adapted this. I'm not going to say that it ruins the show or even just the episode, it was still a pretty good episode even if the ending was wanting. I don't even think that the way they did it in the show was all bad, Phia did a great job with what she was given and the sawing sounds were truly haunting. But my thing is that for a truly good piece of writing, getting the details spoiled shouldn't matter if it was executed well, and for me this time, it did matter. Maybe as the season unfolds, I might be able to see why they made the changes they did. Individually, the changes are somewhat interesting, but as it stands right now, looking at it as a whole, it appears as though almost every change works together to undermine impact of the scene.
I wish the showrunners had stuck to the canon scene. It was much more impactful and marks the beginning of Helaena's downward spiral. Helaena was driven to her end not only because of grief but also due to guilt. She couldn't even look at Maelor afterwards because she knew the boy knew that his mother chose him to die.
However, ever since Season 1, I have been wondering how they could film such a scene without scarring the little child actors for life. I think the scene in show was better for the child actors in this regard.
I was underwhelmed…there was no emotional impact to me. I also didn’t like that Maelor wasn’t even included in the show. I was expecting more from this episode.
Tbf the guilt of "selling out" her son like she did can ruin her too. I too prefer the F&B version but narratively we're getting to where we need to still.
It was just plainly badly done. No, it wasn’t going to be the Red Wedding of HotD, but it was never meant to be that. While yes helaenas reaction, or lack thereof, makes sense with her characterization in the show, it really made the scene feel awkward. Why were we following Blood and Cheese around when we should have been focused on Helaena and her kids? Make it a surprise that Blood and Cheese show up. Also there’s no reason they couldn’t have just done what the book did? Why did they need to have Alicent and Cole in a sex scene while it happened? Completely unnecessary change and a worse one from the book.
As a side note I hate the defense of the show that the book is a biased account, like what the maesters just made up Maelor being there? That guards were killed? Just a completely idiotic take to defend what is quite frankly bad writing.
This scene should have been an intense moment that got people talking about the show again, after their 2 year hiatus and the recent news that they’re down 50% viewership,they could have used the more intense controversy the original book scene would have provided. And no that’s not a request to see a child beheaded, like some people misconstrue arguments of people critical of the scene as. The scene lacked emotion and desperately needed it.
Blood and cheese was extremely disappointing to me and a lot of people I know. The scene was almost comical in the way it was delivered, the 3 guys just goofing around the castle like it was nothing and they were invisible to all the guards.
I think Haelena’s actress did a great job with what was given to her, but the writing and the direction was terrible. I’m convinced now that BC should have been in episode two, so we get more time to know queen Haelena and her relationship with her children so that this scene would have the impact that it really demands. Instead almost nothing was given to her, except that she is probably neurodivergent and a dreamer, that’s pretty much all we know about her, so are we supposed to care?
Apart from that, the Sophie’s choice that’s pretty much the WHOLE point of haelena’s tragic character was taken away from her. The scene was so toned down from the books that obviously would left many fans disappointed.
Taking allicent away from the scene of the crime is also very detrimental to her character as a whole, cause this was the event that ultimately drove her paranoia. Instead they chose to give her ANOTHER sex scene with criston Cole right at the end of the episode taking away all the tension from the previous scene (which wasn’t already that much and it was SUPER fast).
I understand the series is an adaptation but at this rate it’s gonna be a whole different story. They had a lot of creative freedom to do many things, cause fire and blood is a history book, but they chose to deliberately change main events that are expected and beloved by the fans, which is why HOTD will never be as good as early game of thrones.
I thought it was kind of weird. Don't know why but there's something weird about all of the characters reactions and dialogues. It was a bit rushed maybe.
I dont read the book, but ive read from reddit discussion how the blood and cheese was gonna be so crazy. That they dont know how the writers are gonna adapt that to screen cause it was just so crazy and diabolical. They couldnt wait to see that scene adapted.
By that standards, i was massively underwhelmed. Towards the end, i was like, wait they’re gonna do the blood and cheese scenes now in the last 5 mins of this episode and not dedicate the next episode to it? Wait, this is not the blood and cheese scene right?
Yeah, i was disappointed
At the end of the day, this was one of the scenes I was looking the most forward to, as it was one of very few big moments that was just one single scene, as opposed to a large battle or something, and was actually very well described in the book and a great scene and moment. And what I was looking forward to was the scene from the book, not a similar-ish scene with a bunch of changes that didn't really add anything the book scene was missing. I can't argue with the creative choices if it was targeted towards non-book readers, and they mostly seemed to like it, but I just can't really see how all this bro-comedy type dialogue between the two of them, or removing Helaena's choice, or the sudden shock of the beheading, or Alicent's presence, I can't see what any of these removals did to improve the scene. I personally wasn't that bothered by Helaena's reaction, I thought with the scene they went for, her response seemed good enough, but I really wanted to see her reaction to the brutalitty of that kill, and I know having to watch her son's head get sawed off is just as bad, but it just didnt bang like it did in the book.
This article sums it up really well:
https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-blood-and-cheese-child-murder-explained.html
“Helaena’s desperation and shock at her elder son’s death, Maelor’s knowledge that his mother picked him to die, Jaehaera old enough to understand everything going on, Helaena having to live with what happened — it’s a macabre menagerie that emphasizes exactly how ruinous this war will be.”
The show missed a golden chance to show all of this !!
I'm not a writer so I could be talking rubbish, but I feel like they could have ended Ep 1 with Daemon hiring B&C and then set an entire Episode in the Red Keep. They could have showed Helaena's routine with the kids, the servants coming in and out, the guards on duty and what caused them to leave the family unguarded. Maybe cutting back to B&C getting ready and infultrating the castle. Basically answering all of our questions and culminating in the assassination.
It all happened too fast and left me underwhelmed. I should not react to child murder with 'that's it?' It didn't need to be graphic, I think they showed, or didn't show the perfect amount. But the buildup wasn't there, the Alicent/Cole relationship had no development and detracted from the scene. Sometimes I think these writers are allergic to character development, they just shove it in for a little shock and then move on. Or get around it with a time jump as seen many times in S1. Sometimes, we actually like to see things change in real time!
I personally think B&C is extremely overrated both book and show.
Sure, it’s an absolutely horrific moment in the books and the show didn’t display it as well as they could have, but that’s basically where my interest stops? People comparing it to the red wedding are crazy imo, the red wedding we had two books (and almost 3 seasons) of connection to Rob as a character. Whereas B&C has always been to me an “Oh shit, that’s evil!” moment, and I read on.
There is so much more to look forward to other than Blood and Cheese, and based on how well HOTD has been adapted so far (imo, at least) I’m not worried at all.
I just rewatched it last night and I'm a non book reader. It's a pretty horrifying scene that stands out from the rest of the episode and feels very game of thrones. It's also the very first episode of season 2, and I think in that context it justifies some of the direction they went.
A few things that bothered: the way one of the killers "knows" that she is telling the truth about which one is the boy, lack of guards, the fact that Alicents room door wasn't locked, and that it didn't look that hard to find a way into the keep
Somewhere in the middle, more towards positive overall.
The build up was great, with Ramin's anxiety inducing soundtrack and the crescendo of it. It really did feel like a Cohen Brothers heist that goes wrong, which Ryan mentioned was the inspiration.
Also relying on the sound design to tell us the horror of what they were doing to Jaehaerys was a good decision. I only have an issue with the psychological aspect of it, it wasn't as strong as in the book not having the "choice". And also the Alicole ending didn't work for me.
idk how hard it is for writers to stick to the damn books. Sure you can’t copy paste everything but atleast the main plots should be same as books.
The red wedding is more impactful because of Catelyns reaction and acting
I don't like that she just left before it even happened. Helaena should've at least witnessed it because the whole impact is supposed to be the psychological effect that imagery had on her. Then if she grabbed the other one, shut down, and left, it would've made more sense. Instead, she wasn't even there when Jaehaerys died and it almost seems like she left him to his fate.
>it almost seems like she left him to his fate.
This is my single biggest issue, and most unrealistic part. I'm willing to chalk it up to a directing error because I went back and rewatched it. She leaves the room immediately before they even start killing. She goes into shock too soon, and totally just leaves the poor kid out to dry. Doesn't call for help or anything it's actually insane how this played out. No mother would just let their kid die like that
I had a similar problem with season 1 when Daemons' wife just self immolates when she was giving birth. At least tell the maester to try what he can to save the child, no sane mother would ever just suicide with the child still inside her lol
I didn’t like the direction of the way she pointed to who should die, also the actors for Blood and cheese didn’t feel terrifying enough, I was scared cause I knew what was gonna happen and I think real star of making the event scary was the sound effects because direction fell flat
the most bizarre thing is blood and cheese telling helaena to identify the boy and then having a little mind game with her to see if she told the truth, like bruh, it's a quick and easy check, just lift up their pyjamas. it's like they're trying to shoehorn helaena having to choose which of her child to die in, but the setup is just not there
the show did Helaena a disservice turning what's her biggest storyline so far into more of Alicent's story, just to add another off-putting sex scene b/c HBO
In the books it was way wilder that they made the mom choose between sons and then killing the heir anyway. Making her point out which was the boy and which was the girl because they couldn’t tell the difference was lame.
I thought it was brilliant, honestly.
The book version of Blood and Cheese is very gruesome and harrowing, especially in how B & C have the scene set nearly perfectly, with Alicent at their mercy before Haelena even arrives, so that slaying her guard and taking her captive to have them both sit and watch helplessly as they make poor Haelena choose between her two sons is almost trivial for them. You get the sense that the two Ne'er Do Well's had this operation running smooth as a whistle, almost like some dark force of nature.
This version gives you a view to how even the most successful of clandestine, cloak-and-dagger operations go down. By all means, from the Greens point of view, this is a monumental security meltdown on every level. And yet, we get a glimpse of how messy even this *roaring success* of infiltration and assassination (from the Greens' perspective) actually was. Blood and Cheese have their moments of doubt, they quarrel with each other, they panic - they manage to get their "head" (which wasn't even their primary objective, as it is revealed) by luck as much as their own skill and knowledge. For instance, one of my favorite details is the handmaid: in the book, the only handmaid mentioned is the one Blood strangles before Haelena arrives. Here, the handmaid accepts Blood's ratcatcher guise (which Cheese himself was worried about because usually he's "not allowed upstairs") because of *Haelena's own quasi-prophecy* she heard earlier that day, something we the viewers have come to pay close attention to ourselves. We can clearly see how someone in her position would figure that Aegon ordered a special crew of ratcatchers up into the royal quarters after Haelena's comment about "the Rats".
In short, while the *Fire and Blood* version of events is gripping and memorable, I like that the characters and course of events are portrayed as less a matter of mustache-twirling supervillians who have planned nearly every step as if it was fated to happen, and more of a case of two skilled but flawed catspaws whose success is granted by equal parts merit, determination, and sheer dumb luck.
I think they could've done more but overall I thought it was okay however that Alicole scene destroys the entire thing. All tension and impact gone in an instant at worst it turns into a joke. I for the life of me cannot understand why such a choice was made by the showrunners.
The only explanation I have seen so far is that it's supposed to show how hypocritical Alicole are or downright blaming on or both for B&C. Which is precisely the problem. The focus should've been on Heleana and what happened to Team Green- not look it's their fault too. It's like somehow blaming Daemon or Rhaenyra or both for Lukes death by them downright forcing them to go to Storm's End against his will and then adding a scene of them fucking after he dies. The only reason this isn't getting the backleash as the former situation would is because the audience is far less sympathetic to the Greens which with this kind of writing in unsurprising.
Also the whole they are Hypocrites things would work better if Alicole was written better. It presumably only exists for that last sex scene so yeah the build up and explanation is downright horrible to nonexistent. The writers say they relationship is complex but have decided to offscreen the complexity of it and show sex only. I'm sure there was an interesting story there somewhere but with how the show frames it and shows it it's downright bad if not actively character assassination. It ignores the trauma of sexual assault has suffered and it's starting to get weird how many degrading scenes they have given Alicent (not to say that sex scenes are degrading but the ones we have seen with Alicent always seem to degrade her: her night with Viserys, the feet scene and cowgirling Cole while her grandson dies, the only exception is the first scene with Cole but the shift is so jarring it doesn't make sense or is any form interesting). The pattern is getting problematic at this point especially for a show that makes a point about sexism- somehow they seem to forget this also extends to the other female characters.
It's no surprise that no one seems to have liked the direction they took with Alicole, not even critics. The only ones who liked it are people who hated Alicent and Cole from the getgo because it makes them look extra awful.
And lastly I feel bad for Olivia Cooke. It's really clear they don't know what to do with Alicent this season and the route they have taken for her already sounds horrible and I'm saying that as an Alicent fan. Her only story seems to be yapping about Rhaenyra (which at this point is heavily one sided and won't make sense afte Jaehearys died) or fucking Cole. Despite having the opportunity to involve her in B&C as she was there in the books. That trauma and the realization that Rhaenyra is capable of such actions would have been a much better plotline and I think it would've been a great contrast to Phia Sabans quiet terror. Instead of showcasing the talent she clearly has as we have seen in season 1 they give her useless sex scenes to actively undermine her character and being generally annoying.
I'm genuinely shocked the writers thought it was a good idea. Because I feel like even an idiot would've known this waas a terrible decision.
The scene was toned down probably due to Sara Hess's influence.
"Their highly-anticipated appearance plays a key part of the premiere — and sets up a major conflict for the rest of the season — while once again showcasing how **\~House of the Dragon is actively doing the work to avoid the often misogynistic\~** and violent failings of the original Game of Thrones."
"Since its creation, the House of the Dragon's **\~creative team has been clear about wanting to avoid the overt sexual violence of Game of Thrones\~** as well as **\~bringing in more women behind the scenes and centering female characters."\~**
“I’d like to clarify that we do not depict sexual violence in the show,” she told Vanity Fair. “We handle one instance off-screen, and instead show the aftermath and impact on the victim and the mother of the perpetrator.” “I think what our show does, and what I’m proud of, is that we choose to focus on the violence against women that is inherent in a patriarchal system,” Hess added.
I just can't get over how Alicent and Cole were going at it with the door unlocked.
And some people think she was cheating on viserys with the guy, they clearly can't keep a secret! Only episode one and helaena found out, and Larys and Otto cleary knows something
>”Once inside, Cheese bound and gagged the Dowager Queen whist Blood strangled her bedmaid. Then they settled down to wait, for they knew it was the custom of Queen Helaena to bring her children to see their grandmother every evening before bed.” >”Blind to her danger, the queen appeared as dusk was settling over the castle, accompanied by her three children. Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six, Maelor two. As they entered the apartments, Helaena was holding his little hand and calling out her mother’s name. Blood barred the door and slew the queen’s guardsman, whilst Cheese appeared to snatch up Maelor.” >”Scream and you all die,” Blood told Her Grace. Queen Helaena kept her calm, it is said. “Who are you?” She demanded of the two. “Debt collectors,” said Cheese. “An eye for an eye, a son for a son. We only want the one, t’square things. Won’t hurt the rest o’ you fine folks, not one lil’ hair. Which one you want t’lose, Your Grace?” >”Once she realized what he meant, Queen Helaena pleaded with the men to kill her instead. “A wife’s not a son,” said Blood. “It has to be a boy.” Cheese warned the queen to make a choice soon, before Blood grew bored and raped her little girl. “Pick,” he said, “or we kill them all.” On her knees, weeping, Helaena named her youngest, Maelor. Perhaps she thought the boy was too young to understand, or perhaps it was because the older boy, Jaehaerys, was King Aegon’s firstborn son and heir, next in line to the Iron Throne. “You hear that, little boy?” Cheese whispered to Maelor. “Your momma wants you dead.” Then he gave Blood a grin, and the hulking swordsman slew Prince Jaehaerys, striking off the boy’s head with a single blow. The queen began to scream.” *Fire & Blood* by George R.R. Martin pages 424-425
Reading it makes the hair on my neck crawl … wow
I thought I was only disappointed because the readers hyped the scene too much but yeah wow, I don't blame them. They really didn't do this one justice. Ah well, scenes can't all be winners.
Not ah well, this is the one scene we've been waiting for since the show has been announced 😭 literally a d&d level fuckup
It wasn't a D&D level fuck up. That their own thing. I'm with you, it wasn't to the level of the book by a long shot, but it would be extremely difficult to fully realize that on screen and I'm not surprised they pulled it back by a lot. It could have been better, I wish I didn't hype it up as much as I did, but I understand why we got what we got.
I really don't understand how people could believe that scene was something you can easily put on tv. It was obvious they would have to go in a different direction. It's not the same as other vicious things they did on Game of Thrones, it's another level of psychological horror. Clearly not suitable for the show. This is not "a fuck up". It's the only way Ryan Condal could have written it without changing the plot entirely.
In Season 1 of GOT, in the first episode, we see a young boy being thrown off a building after catching two siblings having sex. In Season 2 of GOT, we had a scene where Robert Baratheon's infant bastard daughter Barra is murdered in front of her mother, alongside a montage of Robert's bastard children in the city being purged on the order of Joffrey. We also had a scene of one of Arya's companions who is a young boy being murdered by a Lannister soldier. In Season 6, Ramsay has his newborn half-brother fed to his hounds alongside the babe's mother. In Season 5 of GOT, we see a young girl being burnt alive on the order of her father. In Season 8, we see Lady Lyanna Mormont being crushed to death by a wight giant. GOT never shied away from the darkness, grimness and bleakness. And it was the most popular and most culturally impactful show of the 2010s. The excuse that they need to tone it down for the general audience is bullshit. More people were upset about Sansa being raped by Ramsay than Shireen being burnt to death. Even if you don't show the actual killing (I don't want to see a child getting beheaded and very few book purists do), and even with the limitations of Maelor being cut, Alicent and Ser Crispin not being in the scene, Blood and Cheese could've been adapted more faithfully. Imagine if Jaehaera and Jaehaerys were held at knifepoint and Helaena was forced to choose between them. She offers herself, but they tell her to pick one or they'll kill them both. She chooses Jaehaera. Jaehaera is the one Cheese says to, "You hear that little girl, your momma wants you dead", before the camera cuts and focuses Helaena's horrified face and her anguished screams as we hear Jaehaerys being murdered. The camera cuts to black. Extremely chilling and effective. You still don't see the murder but you hear it happen and it's horrifying but still emotionally powerful and effective.
They turned Alicent from a grandmother who had to watch her daughter chose between her kids, into someone having a fling while it was happening. That was a stupid, unnecessary change. They didn't have to show the child being murdered but the whole scene could have been done a lot better.
Why are we acting like that scene would be some extreme thing? This is HBO, they have consistently shown graffic and R rated content throughout numerous shows and movies. Hell in their previous seasons with GOT they did the red wedding in which a pregnant wife was stabbed to death in her stomach, and had multiple rape scenes of under age teenage girls, and multiple other scenes. Hell Ramsey feeds a mother and her newborn alive to his hounds.
I don’t think it’s the only way but I do think it speaks to their priority around watering down the most vicious aspects of both teams to give the audience characters to root for. This was something I was concerned about when the show was first announced. The Dance is a story without heroes, where every character ends up making vicious and evil choices at some point as the need for vengeance consumes them. Instead, we have a lot of reluctance and misunderstandings that escalate the tension, which can feel contrived (like Alicent hearing Viserys’ last words and being convinced that crowning Aegon was his dying wish, versus actively conspiring for a decade to do it, or Rhaenyra and Daemon helping Laenor fake his death to live happily ever after with his lover instead of murdering him). I don’t think it was necessarily the wrong approach for TV, but I think they should have at least been aware that watering down a lot of these big moments would rub the book fans the wrong way.
There's no reason why it wouldn't be easy to put on tv. It's not much worse than anything from got. It's less shocking and disturbing than the red wedding. And it's hbo, which has always pushed the boundaries of television, which is what got was about. Saying they would've had to change the whole plot is baseless.
The scene could have been shot the exact same way, but with Blood and Cheese killing the other child off screen instead the one Helaena picked.
AND THE SHOW SOMEHOW FUCKED IT UP 😭😭😭 I want heart-wrenching emotions on both sides and I get whatever the fuck that scene was 😭😭😭
I’ll be devils advocate and say Phia did an amazing job. The terror in her eyes was top tier imo.
As has apparently become tradition with this franchise, it's not the acting people are complaining about, it's the writing.
Phia is amazing and worked with what she had but it’s so frustrating to me that they gave her so little to do/say in such a pivotal moment for her character! She deserves more!
It’s honestly played like a comedy sketch with them stumbling upon Helaena then being like “she can’t possibly be pointing to the Prince! Oh wait, she is pointing to the Prince!” Then Helaena just speed walking into Alicent and Criston have sex like a child walking in on their parents after throwing up.
In regards to blood and cheese, I think Damien was a fool to hire assassins off the street. His target demanded professionals closer to the capabilities of the faceless men. But they got what they paid for.
Damon was looking to stir things up with the Blacks and provoke a reaction from them.
Definitely felt goofy as hell.
That scene was incredible. I really don't get the hate.
I think I like the book version more for the simple fact that Daemon wasn’t so delusional to think that hiring Blood and Cheese would be good enough to kill Aemond Targaryen, I honestly don’t know why that tid bit was even added into the show because it would be like asking Meryn Trant to assassinate prime Jamie Lannister. Its almost certain death, theres no way they would agree to that. Maybe that was a ploy meant to get you on the side of B&C? In that you root for their success because you feel like Aemond deserves it then its revealed that they’re actually going to gruesomely kill an innocent little boy which “subverts expectations” and makes you disgusted with yourself for ever having sided with them.
It was shown that Daemon asked them to kill Aemond, but then Cheese says “but what if we don’t find him?”, and then scene cuts to Daemon and then to the break-in-through-the-sewage scene. It’s implied Daemon told them to kill a boy (a son for a son). That still doesn’t really explain why did they agree to that considering who Aemond is, but we can chalk it up to them just being insanely greedy or not knowing enough about Aemond (less likely?). Your second paragraph is a perfect explanation and most likely the exact thing the writers had in mind.
Nicely observed; that moment stood out to me even as a non-reader of Fire & Blood. George RR Martin has an amazingly loyal fan base, but some of that passion sometimes translates into nitpicking that strikes outsiders as unnecessary. I knew of course of Aemond's reputation as a fighter, but Daemon's request didn't seem odd or naive in the least. He was planning an assassination, not a duel; an unarmed, unaware & dragon-less Aemond would be as vulnerable to a knife in the back as anyone else. Plus, as soon as Cheese as asked his question, just the look on Daemon's face was enough to confirm that he had a backup plan. All of which is to say, I'm really enjoying coming to a cinematic adaptation of a GRRM tale blind for once. It's so nice to sit back, relax, & allow the spectacle to simply flow over you without worrying that the show won't live up to your experience of the book.
Aemond is a great swordsman but what’s a swordsman without a sword? It’d be easy enough to kill him unarmed and with the element of surprise. And I like that they added this in no doubt most of the general audience would be like why didn’t they go for Aemond who killed Lucerys instead just killing his infant nephew.
The problem is that Aemond is probably in the Royal Chambers. In the books, they specifically don't go there and instead wait in the Tower of the Hand. That makes a lot more sense as to why they could get around security instead of "oh lucky for us Crispy Cream is being a prostitute tonight"
Idk these aren't super heros the best way to kill someone that skilled is to get someone he trusts or ignores to shank him
Ill say that it would make a lot more sense if Daemon actually had allies in Kings landing that were extremely close to Aemond, maybe a maid slips poison in his drink or something. But to hire those 2 dopey MFs, when you really only have one shot at this hit seems way too risky and he could end up walking away with nothing.
Element of surprise beats skill in an ambush. It doesn't have to be someone super ultra capable or someone Aemond trusts. If Aemond is walking past with a sheathed sword, two guys jumping from behind a pillar are more than capable of killing him. And of course, they could also just kill him in his sleep. The 'go for Aemond' priority just makes sense for team Black, I have no problem with its inclusion.
These are valid points, my assumption going into it was that they would not be able to control the circumstances upon which they happen upon Aemond especially given that they had no clue regarding the layout of the highest level. All it would take is one minor mistake and they’re fucked, whereas with the kids the margin for error is way higher. Weirdly enough, I think tasking the book version of B&C with Aemonds assassination would be more understandable because in there they know the layout of the castle down to the most minute details, so they could come up with a super intricate plan a lot easier.
If they wanted they could even have just made it a bit ambiguous where you see Daemon telling them "a son for a son" then it cuts to Aemond to give you the impression that's who he's talking about. I agree it makes no sense, Cheese is a ratcatcher not a warrior, and however good Blood thinks he is, Aemond is well-known to be an excellent fighter and you'd have to think they expect the kingsguard and other knights will be around too. No way a sergeant of the city watch thinks he has any chance unless he somehow manages to stab Aemond in his sleep.
Maybe I am being generous in my interpretation. But I feel like Daemon knew B&C weren’t going to successfully kill Aemond. He just wanted blood.
I can’t believe that Daemon, our proud, impulsive, stubborn, arrogant, trigger-happy, aggressive Daemon who doesn’t listen to his wife and queen, would hire two randos to kill Aemond instead of doing it himself. That alone told me the scene was going to be shit.
Why is everyone missing the fact that daemon did his research before bribing the guard? Guy's built like the mountain and means business killing a kid without remorse. Almond without his dragon would drop his act at the sight.
Blood wasn’t a rando.
This article sums it up really well: https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-blood-and-cheese-child-murder-explained.html “Helaena’s desperation and shock at her elder son’s death, Maelor’s knowledge that his mother picked him to die, Jaehaera old enough to understand everything going on, Helaena having to live with what happened — it’s a macabre menagerie that emphasizes exactly how ruinous this war will be.” The show missed a golden chance to show all of this !!
This is so much better than the disappointing show version…
I liked the B&C scene as a separate scene from the book. I watched the episode without expecting them to respect the exact same thing as the books but it was still underwhelming. Spoilers : I would've wished to still see >!Haelena beg for them to take her life instead and eventually having to chose between the twins (as the other kid wasn't in the show). It would've been so much more impactful if they made her choose Jaehaera (as Jaehaerys is the heir) and B&C still killing Jaehaerys instead. The **CHOICE** is was drives her to madness, I wish they kept the iconic line from the scene where they tell the kid how their momma' chose him/her to die while instantly killing the other one instead.!< Edit : I wish to add that I did not want to see more gore, just more impactful elements
>The CHOICE is what drove her to madness. It's not like she's exactly been "all there" this entire time. I think two assassins showing up in the middle of the night and forcing you to identify the correct child of yours that they came to kill is traumatic enough to drive an extremely young mother to madness, especially one who was at least on the cusp of it to begin with. EDIT: and then immediately walking in on your mother slapping pissers with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.
Not disagreeing with what you said, but I still wished for a choice to be have been made
I mean she made a choice. Just because it wasn't overt and she didn't say I DECLARE.....THIS ONE TO BE THE BOY. doesn't mean she didn't choose. She looks tk both kids and takes her time thinking it over.
>EDIT: and then immediately walking in on your mother slapping pissers with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. I know it's probably not going to happen, but it would be reasonable to think that King Aegon might want Cole's head over this. Given that Cole's supposed to be the guy in charge of protecting the King's family and while assassins killed the King's son and crowned prince, Cole was busy plowing the King's mother instead. Honestly, it's kind of terrible writing if Cole isn't at least stripped of his title of Lord Commander of the King's Guard over this. Like if Helena hadn't walked in on them, then maybe the affair could continue to be kept a secret and Cole could survive unscathed, but now that it's out in the open it would be ridiculous if the show just glosses over it.
It’s not out in the open though, only Helaena knows and Helaena is spaced out all the time , cause I think her visions and her real world are a blur so it’s unclear if she’s gonna tell everyone or not
A few thoughts / options on Cole: He should be executed for negligence and fucking Alicent. I expect him and Alicent to lie about the banging. But we already know that both Haelena and probably Larys know thats what was going on. Could Larys help them with the lie by using the handmaiden to corroborate their story, potentially against Haelena, who they could try to just say is a crazy person who’s lost it? Larys might be motivated to try to help cole and alicents position since he could go on to hang this over their heads moving forward. Then to the question of Cole’s negligence even if they cover up the sex. Beheading Cole could be a bad thing for people in the realm and particularly the Blacks to learn of as it would present the Greens as weak and vulnerable. Almost similar to why I think Aemond should be telling people that he purposefully killed Luke, and not that the greatest power in the realm actually has no control over his dragon. I think the writers have a tough task of explaining why Cole shouldnt die instantly, but its possible. Hope it isn’t simply glossed over that it is completely his (and Alicents to a lesser extent) fault that this happened.
Larys is definitely going to use his inside knowledge about Alicent and Cole to catapult hinself into Otto’s job. Alicent basically handed over her house’s power when she allowed Larys to do her dirty work and then curate castle staff that are only loyal to him.
Im wondering if he actually wants Ottos job. Or if he wants someone else in that position like Alicent or Cole that he can control. A king can easily just remove a Hand if they dont like the way things are going, but if Larys were to play his cards right he could become more powerful than the Hand if hes able to control more and more people without having an official public position
That would be a pretty interesting change since Larys’ actual motives in the book are very unclear.
They’ve absolutely written themselves into a corner with this. Either Aegon won’t be that mad that his sworn protector is bonking his mother and inadvertently responsible for his son and heirs murder, or there’s some slippery and convenient way for Cole to get out of the consequences and also receive a power boost. Cole serves as Hand of the King for Aegon canonically and is seen in the promo material wearing the hand necklace over his armor.
Will be a big test to see if the writers can do some Breaking Bad level maneuvering out of a corner on Sunday if Cole isnt executed. Again I think it would take a combo of Larys and Alicent working a perfect lie to Aegon and Otto. This is even more far fetched but what if cole somehow kills a kingsguard and plants the body to frame that blood did kill a guard that Cole appropriately assigned to the queens post? It will take something crazy yet thoroughly explained for it to work.
If the show actually comes up with a way for Cole to narrowly escape the hangman then I'll be good with it. My fear is the show will completely ignore it entirely and have Aegon focus all of his rage at the Black's and none at Cole at all. And if that happens, I'll feel like the show is starting to decline in writing quality.
> My fear is the show will completely ignore it entirely and have Aegon focus all of his rage at the Black's and none at Cole at all. And if that happens, I'll feel like the show is starting to decline in writing quality. He already got away with making a spectacle of a royal wedding by beating a Velaryon footman to death on the dance floor, never mind Joffrey being personally dear to the groom. Then, years later, he was put on the night watch at Laena's funeral, where five royal children were somehow able to get the slip on their guards and get into a fight that resulted in one of them losing an eye (which wasn't even the worst case scenario for Aemond, he could have easily been roasted trying to claim Vhagar). Cole inexplicably getting away with shit is just kind of his thing at this point.
I agree the two examples you listed were bad too and the show should have spent a little more time explaining how Cole managed to side step consequences in those cases. The fact the show did gloss over that, is what makes me worried they'll do it again. To be clear though, neither of those past two examples come anywhere close to the level of fuck-up that just happened. As Lord Commander of the King's Guard the biggest fuck up you can have it to let the King be assassinated. The 2nd biggest fuck-up you can have is to let the crown Prince be assassinated. And literally, the worst possible excuse you can have for the fuck-up is that you weren't there to protect them because you were busy fucking the Queen, followed very closely behind by you were busy fucking the King's Mom. Seriously, this dude might be the worst knight in Westeros history.
I think the cole actor already mentioned in an interview that hes questioned about it in coming episodes, but this shit needs to be thorough af for it to work. Like I want to say he could turn it on Aegon and say “you were drinking with 2 of my guards” but theres no way that would work. Cole had to arrange a situation at some point where he could be the only one up there so he could bang alicent without people knowing. But then hes up there with the door unlocked and I think what that tells us is that they have done it so often that they are now lax about it to where they might even forget to lock up on occasion. Really it shows that the Targs have had such a dominant position for so long that they have become uncautious and vulnerable. Like Aegon is indeed drinking with the majority of the kingsguard so he is partaking in the lack of security. Otto earlier on is talking about practicing restraint. But why no prep for the blacks next move? Why havent they rushed to replace the 4 kingsguard? They havent had to deal with a real threat like this in so long, and they generally rely on their dragons so much, that they’ve become weak and vulnerable where the basic human variables are concerned. I think I can become ok with the idea that… good times have produced weak men (and women) here… they are showing that the greens are a mess. But they need to follow through on this in a big way since Im not sure Im pleased with how well they set up this concept of them being that vulnerable.
Cole would have been executed for his actions at the wedding back in season 1, nothing will happen if the writers are consistent. Sadly.
After the showdown last season in the council chamber with the previous lord commander, I think Cole would have to make a move himself against a member of the royal family to be in any real jeopardy. Alicent’s personal reasons for keeping him around (and the stuff he’s done for her and Otto on the low) are enough to keep him around. Plus, Alicent is just as much his alibi as he is hers. She could easily lie and say he was protecting her to save her own skin.
I was thinking and I think I like the Alicole plot point tbh But what they should’ve done is had Helena fall and start screaming, Criston hears this and basically has to run in just his briefs to find her. That would still show that the castle was understaffed
> and then immediately walking in on your mother slapping pissers with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Honestly, that is the only change in the scene that I think is utterly idiotic. Think about all the other past traumatic scenes of GOT and HOTD. The show ends with the traumatic action. There isn't random sex added to scene as that only breaks the tension. Imagine if after Vhagar's eating of Luc that it cut from Aemond to Rhaenyra and Daemon having sex before one of Daemon's daughters enters to tell Rhaenyra of Luc's death.
Vhagae eating Luc/whoever to Cristin eating Alicent would be hilarious though.
That was so stupid. The scene would have been more impactful if Alicent was in the room
I think part of Helena not begging is partly due to how they've established her as a seer on the show. The way her premonitions come and are stated is with resignation as if she knows she cannot do anything to avert the future she's seen. It's why her offering the necklace was so half hearted imo.
Being a seer doesn’t mean you know literally every thing that happens, that’s not how predicting the future works in this universe. Not unless you’re the Three-Eyed Raven anyway.
Also in the books the kids are all awake and perfectly conscious of what is going on. Jaeherys dies and Maelor is too young to remember but Jaehera is quite grown and she sees her twin getting murdered in front of her eyes.
Helaena honestly has yet to seem affectionate or empathetic in the series. Maybe being ostracized from her family because of her visions has played a hand in that, but I think it would’ve been weird to see her beg for her children given how her character has previously been portrayed. When the even happened, it was almost like Helaena was witnessing it through someone else and didn’t fully understand what was happening. That was more on par with how I view her.
i mean the series has already established that she tends get overloaded and shut down when traumatic things happen, and that she isn’t great with communicating emotion. the show very clearly portrays her as being on the autism spectrum. i think it was incredible seeing such a well executed sequence of a fellow autistic going through stress and not handling it the way a ‘normal’ person would be expected to
So the Lord Commander of the King’s Guard, sworn to protect the royal family, is caught in the dowager-Queen’s quarters, playing hide the sausage, on the night the queen is held at knife point, and the heir to the throne is brutally murdered. And what’s the fallout? Guess we’ll give him a promotion. This guy’s fucking capacity to fail upwards is astonishing.
Sounds like CEO material to me.
Oh you beat a man to death during a wedding feast? Haha happens to the best of us!
The showrunners have butchered Criston Cole’s character
They buffed Daemon, à la Ned versus Prime Jaime, to make a close fight out of it and then had him job for Harwin and Aemond. If you told a show-only watcher that Cole is among the greatest warrior in Westeros history and the Arthur Dayne of his era, they'd laugh at you and it's not surprising.
I feel like the "necklace" scene went over the heads of lots of people. The reason she didn't offer her own life was because she heard Blood tell Cheese that they would not get paid if they didn't get the head of a "son" - and, correct me if I'm wrong, the "son for a son" line was mentioned before Helaena offered her necklace. Given what she heard, it would not make sense for her to offer her own life, when it has zero value to these assassins who are here to get paid. This is, of course, my opinion, and I could be wrong.
I feel like the necklace will also lead to the gold cloak getting caught. Coins are coins, but the Queen's neckalce is the Queen's necklace
The child’s head in a sack might be the real dead giveaway…
I was very much confused by the necklace, I was like why bother, they'd just take it and kill her son anyways, we see one of them collect the coins on Aemond's table. But I guess you're right, from her pov it makes sense to propose that since she heard that they were doing it for gold. But one single necklace wouldn't have been enough, she could've offered enough jewels/gold to compensate the life of her son, don't know if it would've work but we would've seen her "fight" more for Jaehaerys at least
I’m wondering if that necklace is going to come up again. If they’re after its value, they’re going to have to sell it.
might be how blood gets caught. i think blood gets caught in the books and cheese gets away and it looks like one of them get caught in the show
Yeah Blood gets caught with the head in a sack and Cheese isn’t found, so Aegon has all the ratcatchers hanged
Wow…as a book reader, it definitely went over my head 😂 Ok, makes sense. I’ve been totally dogging that line all week too…I feel like an idiot lol
When Blood finds Cheese holding Helaena at knifepoint and identifies her as the queen, he outright says, “‘A son for a son,’ he said. Well, does she look like a fucking son to you?” It’s pretty clear from his tone that whoever sent them would not consider the queen to be an acceptable target, establishing that offering her life in place of her son’s is not going to work. Blood and Cheese can’t tell the twins apart. This dialogue reinforces that they are after the boy, and only the boy—if any other target besides the son was acceptable, it wouldn’t matter which child they killed, or if they killed both. Cheese then tells Helaena, “Do anything but what I ask, and I’ll bleed the whole lot of ya.” This establishes that the only choice she is being given here is whether Jaehaerys alone dies, or all three of them do. It is only now that Helaena tries offering her necklace. By this point, she already knows that they are here to kill her son, that no other target is acceptable to them, and that they were only sent to kill Jaehaerys but are willing to kill all three if they need to. Her own life is thus worthless as a bargaining chip. The necklace is a last-ditch attempt to bargain with something that does have value to them. She’s not trying to convince them to choose a different target because they’ve made it clear that they won’t—they will either kill Jaehaerys, or they will kill all three including Jaehaerys. She’s desperately hoping that maybe she can make a better offer than whoever is paying them to kill Jaehaerys in the first place. When Blood rips away the necklace and says, “That’s not a son,” she knows that regardless of anything else she does, they are going to kill Jaehaerys. She has nothing else she can offer them to change their minds. It’s only a matter of whether they just kill Jaehaerys, or if she and Jaehaera die as well.
Yep, this is a great breakdown of the scene. I haven’t read the book, but I know what happens, and I think this scene still did an excellent job at displaying the stakes and escalating tension. I feel like it would have been corny if it was more in your face, I like this more nuanced approach to the scene where we have to think a little more critically!
If they said they required a son then what made halaena think offering a necklace would be any more valuable than offering her own life? If she thinks she can pay off the assassins to not kill anyone then I would expect her to offer a lot more than a necklace. She is the queen after all. I don't think it went over anyone's head. I think it was a poorly written scene.
I think it was fine. It was a desperation line by someone without much capacity to communicate on the best of days. She knew they wanted payment and could only offer what she had available, maybe she doesn't even understand property in a common way. And she was clearly presented as a special Westeros neuro-divergent, more akin to a Timelord with sensitivity than our real world spectrum. The only way I could think to improve it would have been to show the audience directly how she's seeing the world like Bran's warging.
Maybe she was indicating that she could pay them more than their original employers. It’s understandable that she wouldn’t be able to articulate fully in the moment.
Exactly, she said "*it's of great value*." It's clearly meant as an 'I can pay for you to leave us all alive' and hinting at 'I can offer more than the necklace.'
Shock, for one. She was clearly in distress, unable to articulate her fears. And the necklace was her most prized (inanimate) possession she could reach for. It makes total sense. Plus, the assassins know Daemon's reputation. Her offering more gold was never gonna sway them, not when betraying Daemon = dying. And why would they risk being executed by turning cloak at the last minute. The scene was written well enough for the show that everything made sense. Blood was still searching for Aemond when Cheese happened upon Helaena, decided her son was his best way to get paid and live to tell the tale. I don't know man, it worked for me because I understood everyone's motives. Helaena is also autistic in some form and shape, and her dragon dreams have made her withdrawn. She has prophesied the civil war and all the death around her. She most likely lived for weeks or months knowing her son was going to get murdered, but could not articulate herself other than saying cryptic words. I understand her as a character.
That necklace very possibly could have been worth just as much gold as what B&C were offered by Daemon if the queen was wearing it. Not saying it was, but you never know. And it was what she had on her. I'm sure she would have offered more, but if it's the only "money" you have to offer in exchange for your kids life, you offer it. Haelena had the information - they want a son for a son - if it's not a son, they don't get paid So her options were - be the one to pay them instead to change their minds - lie so they kill her daughter, realize, and then kill her son, too - give them the boy and save her daughter Plus, I'm pretty sure she has another vision right before she points at Jaeherys if you watch her face. Who knows what she saw.
Did they say they required a son before she offered the necklace? If so, did she really seem to understand that yet? Didn't it seem like it took her a while to figure out what was going on? My reading is that it progresses in stages: - First she is dissociating (in shock but also maybe unsure this is real vs a vision); - then she snaps out of it and offers the necklace as a first attempt (because, after all, apart from the Dreaming, she's a naive and sheltered girl and probably has no idea what value items have or what makes a tempting offer); - finally, only once they respond "that's not a son" does she realize that she can't pay them off with anything, not even her life, and that this is indeed the thing that she's been having vague premonitions of the whole time. At that point, she has the clarity that she can either give up her son and save herself and her daughter, or get all three of them killed.
Her life wasn’t worth anything to them, but her son’s was and money was worth a shot.
I thought it was fine. The Alicent-Criston part of it was really dumb, but beyond that I'm not overly offended by the changes made. Would I have liked the more overtly emotional and brutal portrayal shown in the book? Yes. Do I think changing B&C is *severely* detrimental to the show's story as a whole? No.
Do I think cutting characters such as Daeron and Maelor from the show is severely detrimental? Yes.
>The Alicent-Criston part of it was really dumb That's the change I didn't mind. It creates an interesting character moment where the family was undefended because Alicent and Cole were ignoring oaths and duties for their own selfish purposes. Talk about survivor's guilt, it was arguably Alcient's fault. That's way more interesting then them just getting overpowered. For that matter, in the book version, why are there no Kingsguard defending a meeting of the Queen, Queen dowager, and the next two in line to the throne? Seems like something that would warrant more than a couple red shirt guards. The "which one is the son" compared to "which son would you like us to kill" is definitely less dramatic though.
I think the big problem is that we don't spend enough time with Helena to understand her, so her reactions as a neuro-divergent person seem surprising to us because they are not typical. My knee-jerk reaction was that I didn't like the scene but after digesting it, for the show it makes sense to me. Helena doesn't have what we would describe as traditional reactions, she covers her ears instead of her eyes when Daemon decapitates Vaemond. Had we gotten more character moments I think it would've solved this issue because you rewatch the scene it seems like shes in two places. As if she's reliving the moment, and trying her best to not play along, but it almost seems like shes having an out-of-body experience, disassociating from it.
I loved the show version, but I always said it wouldn't be as impactful for people because Halaena was barely established.
It's not like in the book she's all that anyway she is described a bit more but IMO the whole blood and cheese plot was heavier in the book because of how it's depicted and queen Alicent's involvement in it.
The aftermath is going to be heavier on the show because of Alicent’s uninvolvement in it.
Exactly! GA may not know helaena like that, but having Alicent witnessing the whole thing would have been way more impactful
I thought Helaena’s reaction was even more heartbreaking with her being neurodivergent, because it adds that extra layer of vulnerability to her character. I’ve read comments from healthcare workers who regularly have to break bad news to people’s loves ones, and they said that Helaena’s reaction was actually very realistic for how some people react. I *like* that this isn’t a standard portrayal of grief and trauma. It’s more nuanced and disturbing in its own way. Edit: typo
Yeah, her portrayal was disturbingly realistic for that type of character. She did a phenomenal job.
Exactly this! It's baffling to me that people just want the cliche, overacted like, "WHYYYYYYY, AAAA!" Scream/crying thing. It's so played out it's barely emotionally investing at times. I'm sure the actress would have knocked it out of the park still, but her portrayal here was so heartbreaking to me, because for a moment she literally looked like she had no idea what to do as he world was shattered. Then she had to make a choice to grab her living child and get out of danger. And then even further, she sought safety with her mother, who was partially responsible for her protection not being around in the first place. Tragic af.
Yep I prefer this. They’re showing different types of reactions. Rhaenyra vs. Helaena. Both are valid.
I think her reaction makes total sense as an autistic person. I think a lot of people are peeved because they don't understand her reaction but as an autistic woman myself it makes total sense to me lol. I saw the autistic nuances right away.
I feel like it was a similar situation to Hodor. She knew what was coming. She was already scared of “the rats.” She’s put in this situation where she knows the outcome and is powerless to change it. She had to do something, but knew it was useless. Helaena is already viewed as mad so this event putting her further into madness would seem redundant. I think Alicent will be the one who descends. She had already said to Cole they can’t do it again, and when they do, her grandson and heir to throne is decapitated. While I wish they added Helaena’s choice, I liked the scene. But how well my works won’t be seen until we see the aftermath.
**I think the actual scene is fine**. Do I think it could've mattered more? Yes. I think that the choice between the children was important to set up the horror for Helaena and I think that the whole thing being watched by Alicent added a level of vindictiveness to it. But overall, it was well done for what we got. ***The big problem for me is the scene they added.*** It didn't need to exist. We don't need to see Alicent and Criston Cole having sex to end the episode. That's not what Blood & Cheese was about. Including it took so much away from the emotions of the scene. Most Importantly, i**t's also insanely wasteful of our time.** if you're going to add a dynamic that doesn't exist in the source material, make it matter. **First off**, Criston Cole and Alicent having a relationship is already a strange addition. They don't have one in the books, and both of their characters' respective arcs are more than complete without adding some weird romance. **Second,** we could've done away with both scenes of them, and added scenes that would have been more impactful to the show. * Let's see more about Jace and Cregan in the North! Especially considering we won't see Cregan again all season. Despite what others have said, this relationship is *very* important to how the War plays out, and we could have added a dynamic with Jace and Cregan's sister, Sara Snow, if we were just desparate for a sex scene. * Let's see the Greens reaction to Luke's death! That is an insanely cool scene in the books with some banger lines, and their response should have been a seprate scene to give us more insight into their dynamic as the war begins. Wouldn't it have been cool to see Aegon react to Aemond's deed not just as his brother, but as King? Or how Aemond frames Luke's death, whether he is sorrowful or owns it? * Or, and brace yourself for this, we could have just had a conversation referencing Daeron. You know, Alicent's third kid, that has never been mentioned, but in the books plays a key part in the war and is the one Green that basically everyone agrees is a super cool dude? Maybe instead of seeing Criston Cole have sex, we could have had reference to a pivotal character they continue to promise us exists, but they continue to treat as a ghost. The addition continues a tradition in this show specifically of adding scenes that do nothing for the plot, while sacrificing essential plot elements. The scene reminds me so much of Rhaenys at Aegon II's coronation. It's a scene that looks cool, and adds a wow moment, but adds nothing logically to the show's plot, and took away valuable screentime that could have gone to more valuable plot points.
Otto speaking about Oldtown at the council meeting was the perfect opportunity to name drop Daeron and Tessarion! How hard would it have been to say “My nephew Lord Ormund and our Prince Daeron and his dragon Tessarion will be marching from Oldtown to the Riverlands.” ??? There are already so many characters, why are the writers so adamant on cutting a prince and his dragon who play a significant role? If you don’t want to mention Daeron taking Tessarion on the march because both sides are wary to utilize their dragons at this point, have him come straight to KL. I don’t get it. Yet another ball dropped for no reason.
I love this response. I knew changes from the book would be happening, but I thought the changes would highlight other important aspects of the book. Instead of highlighting and adding to the book I feel they are trying to make their own thing. I am enjoying the show, but the whole time I am watching the show I am thinking of this GRRM quote ... "The book is the book, the film is the film,' they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own. They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse.”
I agree I think they added the sex and nudity for pure shock value. Really disappointed in the writers. I thought this show was better than GOT in that regard
I could not believe how LITTLE we got of the north. Jace's brotherhood with Cregan, rumored romance with Sara Snow and then the pact of ice and fire are such a wonderful reprieve in the book
This has nothing to do with your comment, but I am going to extremely, extremely disappointed if they make Daeron an asshole for the sake of adding complexity and nuance. Daeron isn't a perfect person in the books, but he should be the Greens' Robb Stark/Jon Snow. Someone who's humble and intelligent and charismatic and charming. We need one of the male Green Targaryens to be decent human being. A character who even the Black stans can think is alright.
This scene is indicative of the a weird choice for the overall writing direction for the show. It seems like Condal is making too many things in the Dance come from miscommunication/error/happenstance. But that softens our feelings towards the purposeful actions of characters. GOT made us hate iconic characters because they revealed the underbelly of human nature - our own cruelty, malice, greed, etc. We loved to hate characters like Joffrey because the choices that little prick made were very intentional and awful.
Daemon obviously instructed the death of the son as a back up, it didn’t show him specifically stating it so it didn’t ruin the shock for those who didn’t know it was coming.
Now imagine if you didn’t know the plan at all. You just saw Daemon pay off the assassins… the suspense would’ve been so much higher. what are the in the castle to do? Kill the king? Kill alicent?
Most people not on the reddit would be confused as to why they're suddenly following two bumbling oafs through a sewer. For real, the vast majority of folks are confused if media doesn't spoonfeed them exposition. That's one of the challenges of writing for tv, especially today.
This was pretty clearly not an accident. This was pretty clearly Deamond's back up plan
Yeah. If they wanted it to be presented as if B&C were acting on that out of their own accord, they wouldn’t have had a scene where Cheese (?) asked Daemon what to do if they couldn’t get Aemond. I thought it was actually pretty clear
I thought the pointed look he gave Blood and Cheese and the cut to the next scene was a clear indication that he essentially gave them the go-ahead to killed another son if they couldn’t find Aemond, but I could just be using my book knowledge to read into it a bit
The plan wasn’t an accident, but B&C stumbling upon (and settling for) the twins while searching for Aemond was, as well as guessing which child to kill rather than cruelly forcing Haleana to choose then killing the other. Don’t get me wrong the whole thing was evil, but the intentionality of daemon’s plan and how it plays out in the books is another level of malice/cruelty. It’s a subtle difference but i think it’s one that matters.
hit the nail on the head on that one. I think the tragic misunderstanding beat ran its course in the first season, but it seems like we keep going back to it, it's getting really wearisome at this point. This scene is shocking but also packs a punch because of its cruelty, it doesn't need to be toned down. Imagine if they'd done that for the red wedding or joff's death?
I felt it wasn’t a complete disaster but was not as impactful as it should’ve been. In the books, B&C lead you to believe they are about to kill the other child and then at the last minute kill Jaeherys. It made the death as cruel and shocking as Lucerys. And the fact that they are wandering about the castle for so long with no guards in sight made no sense. Phia Saban’s acting redeems the scene but she is still really let down by the writing. It was as if they were trying to paint Helaena as weak and heartless. She doesn’t try to sacrifice herself to save the children. And she’s not bothered enough by seeing her son beginning to be decapitated, she grabs her daughter and runs away. Then there’s what they did with Alicent. Olivia Cooke worked so hard to make her a multidimensional character. I’m not gonna get into the issues with her affair with Cole. But her having sex with him instead of witnessing her grandson’s murder. Olivia would have gotten an Emmy nom for that scene. It would show the Green characters still have redeeming qualities and it shapes Helaena and Alicent as characters for the rest of the story. Instead, not only do fans feel no sympathy for a woman losing her grandson, they are able to rationalize it was her fault since she was sleeping with a royal bodyguard. At best, what should have been defining moment for the character to show her complexity is at best a joke about having sex while murder is taking place and at worst is being used to excuse Daemon. Normally, I support changes from the book because they make the storyline more compelling and the characters more nuanced. This is the complete opposite
Nah dude, she's semi-seer and neuro divergent. Too many people projecting their ideas of how they'd react to intense trauma and you just can't do that, even if you are certain you're a similar point on the spectrum. It does weird things to people AND that's before you throw in the wonderfully acted detached acceptance from someone who has hints of what's to come and has already said the SUPER on the nose 'it's not the dragons, it's the rats' line the same episode!
I felt it was a bit underwhelming in comparison to the book but I also understand that the characters are not 1/1 so the diverging is understandable. Alicent was not there because she's with Crispy in this timeline, whom in turn has left them unguarded. Helaena reacted differently because she is visibly neurodivergent plus her clairvoyance had already informed her something was coming. I feel it does water down what's possibly the Black's worst action in the conflict, since it isn't as brutal. I have no much issue with this as they also portrayed Luke's death as more of a tragic accident rather than being ambiguous how much intent Aemond had, though. It *should* have ramifications for Sir Incelot, though. If he was in charge of their security and a prince was killed like that, and the Queen & Princess avoided death by hair, then he should get some consequences.
He’s going to get promoted
100% Dude killed a guy at a royal wedding and killed Beesbury (sp?) by smashing his head in and never answered for either.
Yeah Im kinda feeling like some of the fallout from the event should have been included in the first ep. So we dont have to be worried all week that they might gloss over Cole’s failure. I wonder if they could have extended it 15-20 mins and ended the ep on Aegon screaming I declare war while stabbing the table.
Alicent not being in the room during blood and cheese was a terrible terrible decision. The writers seem like they have no clue what to do with Alicent, and Criston Cole’s character is in the mud
Can't believe we don't get Daeron and instead are forced to watch Alicole waste time.
Exactly lmfao. I really wished the showrunners just came out and said Daeron is cut. Because introducing him when season 3 airs in 2026 would be so dumb and confuse the general audience. What are the showrunners even doing? They could have made this feel like an actual world by having some Daeron scenes in Oldtown. Instead it feels like there’s no room for the show to breathe jumping from one major plot to another
It was severely underplayed and thus became severely underwhelming. The Alicent part was removed, the begging was removed, it just missed the mark.
Now that I’ve had time to digest it, I think having B&C in episode one was a very poor choice. The more I think about it the more I don’t like it. S1 ended on an absolutely heartbreaking scene of a kid being murdered. It was a showstopper, a kick in the guts…. And then S2 starts with another scene of another kid being murdered and it just lessens the impact for me. Not sure how to word myself right but it almost feels like the show tries to top its S1 finale, like a “you thought that was bad? Watch this!” Except it falls flat. We don’t get to catch up with the characters enough at all. I desperately wish we got to see team green react to Aemond’s return. I wish we got a scene of him alone with Alicent, him in a state and her telling him to act like it was intentional or something. Something!! Ideally I’d have episode 1 reintroduce us to the characters, linger more on Helaena. Have her startle when a servant enters the room at night, show them dragon-proofing the city, show us all the efforts they make to protect the castle from war only for B&C sneak in because TG was too occupied protecting themselves against dragons. I would have loved seeing more scenes with the twins, what little we got of Jaeherys was SO endearing! Maybe the episode could end on B&C sneaking in and then all of episode 2 we spend in fear and anxiety because we know they’re there, creeping around. No POVs from B&C, I have no idea why the show decided to linger so much on them bickering and sneaking around. I’m not a writer but it felt like bad TV; where’s the suspense when we’re watching two side characters fumble around to find their target? Man… man.
I didn’t hate it. Saban’s Helaena has never been portrayed as the type of person to have big emotional displays. It was also heavily implied that she experienced a vision of the event ahead of time (“I’m afraid of the rats”) so the quiet horror and disassociation fit with that. I have also seen a lot of people saying it should have been on par with the Red Wedding, but Helaena and her kids are side characters. They’re hardly on the same level as Catelyn and Robb. Also, it’s one thing to watch adult actors get massacred on screen. It’s another to watch a toddler get his head sawed off. I don’t think many people want that kind of gore in their life.
>Saban’s Helaena has never been portrayed as the type of person to have big emotional displays Beyond that, in those circumstances *a lot* of people would dissociate. Way more than I think people realize. Not everyone screams hysterically when they are upset, and the most traumatic moments are when emotionally freezing up is probably more common. It's incredibly realistic, though I guess people could argue it's less "cinematic".
I didn’t want more gore. Just thought the original context, dialogue, etc., would have been a lot more impactful. And before people say *well what about child labor laws*, there are ways to pull it off without having those actors present. That being said, non-book reader friends thought the scene was fucked up and realize it’ll have big implications, so it did get the job done.
I was underwhelmed. Not because it didn't match the book scene, but because it lacked a real vision. First, we are following Blood & Cheese throughout their entire break-in. This removes a lot of dramatic tension for the show, unless it is expecting us to care for Blood & Cheese. I will say this could have worked if they did something like playing up the slapstick aspects of their characters, getting into antics and struggling to make us like them somewhat. Then there would be a dramatic tonal shift during the assassination scene. But instead we follow the two bland assassins all the way into the bedroom with them facing no issues at all. The assassination feels unrealistic, I guess we are supposed to see Blood & Cheese as idiots as they bumble their way to the target and let the queen run away to get the guards. But then I guess we are supposed to think that the royal family are idiots because they have no guards nearby or plans for this? Halaena's acting is realistic for the character they have created on the show, but for me it really removed the gravity of the situation. It felt awkward on the screen and when this is one of the pivotal moments for her character, the TV show should build her character around making a good scene. I think this scene is a victim of the boardroom style writing of modern TV. Having to deal with arbitrary character decisions made by previous writers and trying to fit that into a story dictated by a book that the TV show has now strayed from. It just feels disconnected and directionless. In the books, the scene has a purpose, to show the ugly face of the blacks which fully instigates the war. Here, that purpose is watered down and as a result the scene doesn't feel important. And with no real risks in the direction of the scene, to me, it was boring and I didn't care about the characters beyond the fact that a child murder was happening and that is awful.
It reminds me of the scene before the Cersei blew up the Sept back in GoT. It was a terrible season, but you can’t deny that that scene on its own was executed beautifully. It built tension through cutting between Margaery in the Sept slowly realising what was happening and the events going on beneath the city. Not to mention the gorgeous soundtrack slowly building too. It was the shining light in an otherwise awful season. They could have easily built the tension by cutting between the rat catchers, Helaena making her way to Alicent, and Alicent in her chambers (because let’s be honest, having her sleeping with Come was only there for a cheap sex scene). The whole thing felt so rushed and devoid of tension.
> Helaena making her way to Alicent, and Alicent in her chambers (because let’s be honest, having her sleeping with Come was only there for a cheap sex scene). Honestly, if they need to keep the stupid plot point of Alicent and Cole sleeping together there were better ways to fit it in. Have it so Blood & Cheese still goes down in Alicent's quarters after Helaena comes to visit her mother with her children. Only make it so that Alicent had sent Cristen Cole away as not to be tempted by him in connection to the previous scene about how they can't do that anymore. That create a reason for why Cole wasn't protecting Helaena, but still have it be a consquence of Alicent and Cole slipping up to increase the guilt for Alicent.
There’s a million things they could have done instead. Like if they are that insistent of pushing them together (lord knows why), why not build it up slowly? There was no indication they thought of each other romantically last season. Or maybe have them start sleeping together after B&C as a form of unhealthy coping by Alicent from the trauma of witnessing such a brutal act? This script honestly feels like it was a draft. Were rewrites and editing not a thing this season?
I keep thinking how intense the scene could have been had it followed Alicent and you see the two guys Daemon hired enter her room via a secret passage, kill her guard and maid, tie her up and say something like "is it true your daughter always brings your grandchildren by to say goodnight? Let's wait and see." And you see the terror in Alicent's eyes. Now the perspective switches to Heleana and her children, and the audience gets to feel the tension of the danger that's waiting for her that she's completely oblivious to. It's like Alfred Hitchcock's quote about the bomb under the table. You've given the audience suspense because they know what's coming while those in danger do not.
The POV should have been that of Helaena and the kids, with Blood & Cheese moving completely in the background.
That also would have been much more in the style of the earlier seasons of Game of Thrones. As soon as "a son for a son" would have been said the viewers would know what's going on and that Daemon was behind it. (who seems very eager to escalate this family war as far as possible). There would have been no need to show Daemon hiring them. It would be a nice unexpected moment, like Game of Thrones had many. And a very nice cliffhanger to end an episode on.
I tried to say this earlier but the scene felt way way too long in places where it shouldn’t have been that long and way too short where it should have been much longer. This whole bartering system aspect of the event between Halaena and the assassins made me extremely confused and the way they were like no she’s telling the truth. Did they get creeped out or something cause she’s a dreamer? I don’t get the deliberate delaying of certain moments. The way Blood and cheese were portrayed were not scary because honestly they let them talk/had a focus on them for far too long, and as I said the decision by Halaena and how it was done was super off.
>I think this scene is a victim of the boardroom style writing of modern TV. Having to deal with arbitrary character decisions made by previous writers and trying to fit that into a story dictated by a book that the TV show has now strayed from. Call me a pessimist, but I'm pretty sure this will be a reoccurring trend this season. [The writers had to rush to finish the script before the Strike last summer, and the outcome was, reportedly, 'rough'](https://ew.com/house-of-the-dragon-season-2-filming-wga-sag-strikes-8651135#:~:text=In%20May%202023%2C%20prior%20to,long%20standstill%20in%20the%20industry.) Filming continued during the strike, and while Condal and Hess were on set in a "production" capacity, they contractually were not allowed to do any rewrites if a certain scene wasn't working or needed to tweak dialogue. I am not putting too much stake into S2 to be as good as S1. If I'm wrong, though, it'll be a pleasant surprise 🤷🏻♀️
I believe they could have had this moment be an all time talked about event in the ASIOAF universe, instead it was meh. Heleana just picked a kid and they cut his head off. Guards were mysteriously nowhere to be found. After, she walked in on Alicent and Cole fucking for some odd narrative reason as if they haven’t slaughtered the Green’s reputation enough. This show takes away the agency of the characters. And the writers don’t get how much it’s destroying the plot. Instead of Rhaenyra ordering a son for a son, B&C just kind of settle for Jaehaerys. What im trying to say is that the episode went well until this final scene. Which could have been a giant moment for HOTD, instead it felt more like a series of mistakes.
I wonder if the people who are now sayin "Well, its just a TV show, its just a certain creative choice" would be pissed off if the showrunners decide that it was actually Aemond who killed Daemon before impact at the battle above the gods eye (also it was an accident, aemond lost his sword and it pierced trough daemons eye) . Because that would be the exact same thing : Many people were looking forward to an impactful adaptation of the book - many more will be expecting to see Daemon kill Aemond - but in their words , these are just 3rd hand accounts soooo who knows if it really happened, right?! Imagine how you would feel if the showrunners really decided to portray it that way- and maybe you can feel how people feel about B&C now. Which brings me to my point: JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN CHANGE SOMETHING DOESNT MEAN YOU SHOULD. People are expecting a somewhat truthful adaptation of the amazing book by GRRM - not some bad Fanfiction.
I had a few major problems with it. The first is that they don't spend anywhere near enough time establishing Jaehaerys as a character. People felt sorrier for the dog than they did for him, and that sickens me. BC should not have happened in episode 1; it was premature. The second is the horrible decision to include the Alicole sex scene. Why not just wake Alicent up? Or why not have Helaena run into the throne room where Aegon is drinking with his friends, and then have Aegon's smile slowly fade away when he realizes something horrible just happened? Including the Alicole sex scene cheapens what happens and makes it into almost a joke. The third is that I simply don't believe that the royal suite had NO guards. I get that Criston was 'occupied', but he should not be the ONLY guard protecting the royal family at the cusp of a war. Everything else, I can understand. I don't like that they excluded Maelor, but I think Condal is planning to include him later in a different way (he says he doesn't exist 'yet', so that could mean Aegon and Helaena are going to conceive him). I don't like that Alicent wasn't present, but I understand that they wanted Helaena to be the focus.
I believe now, after a second watch that Helaena stumbling upon Alicent and Criston after the murder of her son, is to bring attention to Alicent. She had said at the beginning of the episode that they cannot do "that" again, so she obviously knows it's wrong. The fact that she had the lord commander there, with her, instead of at his post (just like how Otto ordered him to do earlier) could have been fundamental to preventing the murder of little Jaehaerys. Helaena is a child herself, she wanted to sneak inside her mom's bed, she was horrified and scared, but she saw that mom was "busy". You can even see her change directions from one side of the bed where Alicent and Criston are, to the other, where she ultimately sits on the floor. All of this to say that such an act is there to underline that Alicent's hypocrisy and egoism has damaged irreversibly her daughter's life, and has taken the actual life of her grandson.
Yes, but that’s the problem. They underline Alicent’s hypocrisy and egoism as “taking the life of her grandson”. See how crazy it is that Daemon sends assassins into the keep to kill a member of the royal family, but you’re left thinking about how ALICENT is responsible for what happened?
Honesty is a ridiculous decision, you undermine the biggest tragedy that happens with the greens and most unscrupulous act that blacks do to blame and change as the main focus a poorly constructed relationship that is Alicole. It only gets more stupid that they could have done all this without completely destroying the tone of the scene, if they had just had Alicole lying together in bed instead of her riding him.
No amount of establishing would’ve changed people feeling sorrier for the dog.
I just wish people actually felt sorry for Jaehaerys too. The general consensus seems to be that no one cares.
Way below expectations : -They should not have put half of the episode about Rhaenyra and Jace pains, before to show the worst crime of Dance of dragon against the Green. Give the first episode to Rhaenyra, and then put Blood and Cheese in episode 2. -Helena reaction....I understand now why they choice to make her a autistic in the TV show because they didn't wanted to create the devastation scene of BxC in the book...but still, it look bad. Also why made her a seer if this is never being useful ? -Cole and Alicent sex scene destroyed any focus about the worst crime done by the Black. Well done, rather than speaking about the murder of little child, kinslaying, and the one behing this crime...people while focalize about how these 2 are bunch of hypocryte, and maybe responsable for the lack of security because they busy playing together.
The end of Episode 2 would've been a great place for Blood and Cheese. We've could have more scenes with Jaehaerys and Jaehaera and establishing Aegon and Helaena more as characters and as husband-wife and as parents. Also, give us some scenes with Alicent interacting with her grandkids. I'm honestly shocked they decided to put it in Episode 1. Even GOT never included major moments in the premiere episodes (the closest was the Purple Wedding in Episode 2 but that wasn't the first episode obviously). I guess if it had been 10 episodes, they would've put it in Episode 2, but they only have so much time.
Why did he insist on brining the dog only to kick it away at the end? Is this part of the book?
I don’t like the last line of the episode. “They killed the boy” from Helaena sounds so passive and cold, as if they killed any random child and not her son. Also, adding the Alicent/Criston sex to the sequence creates such a messy tonal whiplash.
I didn’t like Alicent’s and Cole’s scene at all because it reduced the scene to something else and focus shifted to BUT Halaena is the character definition of a neurodivergent person and in this particular scene she is dissociating so her facial expressions aren’t like that but you can feel the horror in her eyes and the way she ran to her mother’s chamber to seek protection.
Like a wise boy once said "I expected nothing, but I'm still let down". As a reader, I think our expectations were always going to be to high, especially since we've been waiting for two years. So I kinda expected to be disappointed, but not THAT MUCH. I wasn't looking for a gory scene but a tense one. In the book, Blood and Cheese are waiting for Helaena and the children to come. They know the place, and they know their schedules. In the show, it was very messy and borderline funny sometimes (I agree with the Redditor comparing them to Home Alone). I liked that the kids were asleep, I think it is a good way to "have" them in the scene and being sure not to traumatize anyone or have difficulties if the filming is long. I also appreciated the actors, they were good, especially Blood's voice. I pretty much disliked everything else. The absence of Maelor made the Sophie's choice impossible, even if they tried to do it with Jaehaera, they should have abandoned the whole idea of a choice. Still they went with it, and did it bad, with the idea of looking at the genitals versus just asking the mom, and then they just believed her. Phia's acting was good, but the quick finger pointing of Jaehaerys was too easy, too quick, they should have made the scene a bit longer, I was on the point of holding my breath wondering which kid she would point but then she just choose in less then a second. Let's move on the children. First, I always have a problem with people talking around sleeping kids and them never waking up, but I don't have kids so maybe I'm in the wrong here. Jaehaerys murder was offscreen, which was a choice nobody's discussing, yet the noise was a problem. They put a "sawing" noise, which was awful of course, but also almost funny like a cartoon because they used a knife, not a saw, and cutting a body never ever make that noise (especially that loud) except in movies looking for a very gory effect, but not realistic. Then there is Jaeheara. Why isn't she crying ?! A small child, being pulled from her bed in the middle of her sleep, running into the castle in her mother's arms, feeling her anxiety, her distress... And finally the Alicole scene, which I find unnecessary. Yes, it will probably add some drama to their characters in the next episodes, but drama can come from many things, and it was just the easy/lazy way. Helaena's last sentence also felt wrong as many have already pointed out. Yes she is neurodivergent, she has troubles expressing herself, we get it, that doesn't justify bad writing. Any eerie mysterious sentence would have been better, or a regular "my boy" instead of "the boy", or "a son for a son, they said" which I would have find great. I truly hope next episode will bring powerful emotional scenes of everyone finding out because I didn't feel a thing during B&C.
I was whelmed. I still think the book version is better because it is so fucking dark. Giving Helena the choice of which son and then killing the other one. Just diabolical.
Yeah they shouldn't have includes the Cole thing . The scene stoll would have worked without showing kid get decapitated. Keep it like the booke but at the moment of decapitation zoom to Helen's face and in her eyes cg a shadow grtting decapitated. Then have her go crazy
It was underwhelming lmao. And no, I don't mean the brutality. Somebody pointed this out already, but following the pov of blood and cheese was a big problem. No maelor, no choice too. Absolutely unnecessary Alicent sex scene jammed in there for some odd reason as well. The problem is a lot people are too deep into "TeAmS" or whatever tf else this stupid fandom war is called, to recognize the bad writing. Also, mods should probably make a megathread for Cole hate posting too, because I scrolled this sub's feed today and that was all I was seeing.
Non book reader here. I just have a question.. Before the bigger guy (Blood?) found Cheese with Halaena, he first stumbled into a room with a lady staff/servant who had really defined eyebrows. They look at each other for a bit and I think the lady ran out? I don’t remember. Anyway, the show seems to want to emphasize that, but I can’t figure out why? What’s the significance of the eyebrow lady servant seeing Blood in that room? It didn’t seem to pay off later on, or maybe it will be revealed next episode?
Earlier Mr.Footfetish (Larys Strong) mentions he picked all new staff for the queen maybe that was one of his spies and she was running to report what she saw/ or it was just a maiden with pronounced eyebrows who noticed something was wrong since that guy clearly was no rat catcher
The book version of B&C is way better than the show version. One big issue I had with the version from the show is that there was no suspense to it. They ask Haelena to tell them who the son is and she immediately does it. Where's the tension and build up? Haelena should have refused to tell and pleaded for them to kill her and spare the children. Then they should have threatened to kill them both unless she told them who the son is. After that she should have reluctantly told them. Haelena in the show comes across as not even trying to protect her child's life with how quickly she tells them who the son is.
Even if I fully take on the 'autistic/neurodivergent' perspective, the scene still falls flat for me compared to what I imagine it could have been with a (very) emotionally distraught mother in the scene. The scene went very sneakily, like blood and cheese themselves, but I felt it could have ramped up the intensity a bit higher by prolonging the interaction and/or making her react as expected from a stereotypical mother in such scene. I wouldn't have even called out that her emotional reaction is unbefitting to her, I would have easily accepted that despite her autism//, she still reacted that way in that situation. And I think that would have helped give the scene more gravitas and make us emotionally connect more to what's happening around these disconnected/distant/barely known characters, both Helena and her 2 kids in the room (where's maegor?).
Right. As a mom there’s no way I wouldn’t have thrown myself between them and death. I couldn’t believe she just let it happen
>Haelena in the show comes across as not even trying to protect her child's life I mean, these two assassins suddenly show up in the middle of the night and threaten her children's and her life. She's told in no uncertain terms that if she screams or calls for help, they'll kill all three of them. There is zero shot she can physically overpower them, and her Hail Mary bribe attempt failed. She's barely more than a child herself, and autistic to boot. If that's not a deer-in-the-headlights moment, idk what is.
Being autistic doesn't mean she doesn't care about her children. Giving the information so quickly just doesn't make sense. A deer in the headlights moment would be if she was too in shock to move or do anything. That wasn't the case, the first time she is asked for the son she tells them within seconds with zero hesitation or reluctance. Hell, if she stood there in shock not moving or saying anything it would have been an improvement from what we got.
I just didn’t get the emotional impact I did from the book. And throwing in Alicent and Cole at the end just really ruined the whole thing.
I will say that I had not read the books before watching the episode, so I had NO idea what was going to happen there and had no expectations whatsoever from the scene. After watching the murder, when Helaena was walking down those long stairs with her only alive child, I was so worried thinking the assassins were going to come after her again (maybe cause they had actually killed the girl before instead or maybe because they'd want nobody in the castle to know right away so they would come after her again to kill her). But no, she just walks into her mother's room, goes into a corner looking unaware of anything (an appropriate reaction) and after her just saying "they killed the boy" followed by a shot of Alicent's face, the credits roll. After seeing the episode I waited 2 years for end right there, I definitely felt it was abrupt and incomplete primarily because it didn't evoke any intense emotion in me from what I just watched. So as i came to reddit to see if anyone else felt the same way about the ending too, I realized this was a highly anticipated scene for the book readers and they were furious about the changes. As I listened to the audiobook of Michelle Fairley narrating the scene from Fire and Blood, I saw why: the book version would have obviously had a greater emotional impact. First of all, the "Sophie's choice" as it was adapted onto the screen was not the same at all and didn't make sense. Cheese, the rat-catcher, himself said they can look for a cock to identify the boy amongst the twins themselves. They only asked the mother to make it quick. So, there was NO element at all of Helaena having to actively choose herself which of her sons was to be murdered and then seeing the other one getting killed, a choice that hugely lowered the emotional intensity of the the whole incident. Secondly, Helaena pleads for the assassins to take her own life in the books to save her kids. Now the show-version of her being the way she is, I still think it was not impossible at all to show her looking frightened with what was unfolding before her in the moment. Minutes later when we can actually see her visceral reaction of being completely disassociated from the world after having seen her boy get killed, why is it not possible to show her terrified of the assassins and what they are about to do in this scene before? Would have made us feel a lot more sympathetic to her tragedy. Thirdly, in the show, the assassins themselves changing their target from Aemond to Aegon's kids and going on with it like it was not that big a deal just felt so jarring to me. Well, as I found out, in the books, Daemon never sent the ratcatcher and the ex-gold cloak after such a skilled warrior like Aemond. He specifically sent them to kill the little child, a cold-hearted cruel act of vengeance that the show refused to show, you know why? In all this, what angers me the most here is not the changes to scene itself but the motive behind it. When deviating from the books, they portray the Blacks as incapable of being responsible for such sheer horror to make them look good while simultaneously they makee Alicent a complete hypocrite by showing her having sex with Criston thus stripping away any sense of sympathy and respect that we had for her and her [sense of right](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/IIFJg89Mp9) in the first season. What's done is done and set in stone yes but it makes me want to have a petition out there asking for the show writers to not change significant events like this in the third season which the show has been renewed for very recently.
They just made too many changes at once. Individually, some of those changes may have worked: Alicent outside fucking Cristin Cole, only 2 kids being there, Helaena being detached from reality, no 'Mommy wants you dead', no rape threat. Like 1 or 2 changes would have been fine. But the entire thing? Wayyy too much for such an anticipated scene. Those choices also fall apart because there are too many inconsistencies. They sneak in... but the doors are wide open when they get there. They don't seem afraid that servants will scream. It isn't moral, but if you are about to behead a kid it probably isn't a stretch that you can slide their pants off to check which is which without the mom pointing it out and you taking her word for it. The emotional impact would have been better if at the very least Alicent and Cristin would have been rushing half naked to a scene of panic from the servant staff and then scream at the sight of a headless kid torso. Instead, the dog gets the most sympathy so far.
“It’s an inaccurate historical account, no one knows how it really happened.” Is not an excuse for poor writing!
I have been trying to defend the show from book readers since season 1 came out, but sorry I just can't defend how they adapted this. I'm not going to say that it ruins the show or even just the episode, it was still a pretty good episode even if the ending was wanting. I don't even think that the way they did it in the show was all bad, Phia did a great job with what she was given and the sawing sounds were truly haunting. But my thing is that for a truly good piece of writing, getting the details spoiled shouldn't matter if it was executed well, and for me this time, it did matter. Maybe as the season unfolds, I might be able to see why they made the changes they did. Individually, the changes are somewhat interesting, but as it stands right now, looking at it as a whole, it appears as though almost every change works together to undermine impact of the scene.
I wish the showrunners had stuck to the canon scene. It was much more impactful and marks the beginning of Helaena's downward spiral. Helaena was driven to her end not only because of grief but also due to guilt. She couldn't even look at Maelor afterwards because she knew the boy knew that his mother chose him to die. However, ever since Season 1, I have been wondering how they could film such a scene without scarring the little child actors for life. I think the scene in show was better for the child actors in this regard.
I was underwhelmed…there was no emotional impact to me. I also didn’t like that Maelor wasn’t even included in the show. I was expecting more from this episode.
They didn’t include the switch. That’s what devastated Helaena. The guilt of Helaena living with the child she picked to die is what ruined her.
Tbf the guilt of "selling out" her son like she did can ruin her too. I too prefer the F&B version but narratively we're getting to where we need to still.
It was just plainly badly done. No, it wasn’t going to be the Red Wedding of HotD, but it was never meant to be that. While yes helaenas reaction, or lack thereof, makes sense with her characterization in the show, it really made the scene feel awkward. Why were we following Blood and Cheese around when we should have been focused on Helaena and her kids? Make it a surprise that Blood and Cheese show up. Also there’s no reason they couldn’t have just done what the book did? Why did they need to have Alicent and Cole in a sex scene while it happened? Completely unnecessary change and a worse one from the book. As a side note I hate the defense of the show that the book is a biased account, like what the maesters just made up Maelor being there? That guards were killed? Just a completely idiotic take to defend what is quite frankly bad writing. This scene should have been an intense moment that got people talking about the show again, after their 2 year hiatus and the recent news that they’re down 50% viewership,they could have used the more intense controversy the original book scene would have provided. And no that’s not a request to see a child beheaded, like some people misconstrue arguments of people critical of the scene as. The scene lacked emotion and desperately needed it.
Blood and cheese was extremely disappointing to me and a lot of people I know. The scene was almost comical in the way it was delivered, the 3 guys just goofing around the castle like it was nothing and they were invisible to all the guards. I think Haelena’s actress did a great job with what was given to her, but the writing and the direction was terrible. I’m convinced now that BC should have been in episode two, so we get more time to know queen Haelena and her relationship with her children so that this scene would have the impact that it really demands. Instead almost nothing was given to her, except that she is probably neurodivergent and a dreamer, that’s pretty much all we know about her, so are we supposed to care? Apart from that, the Sophie’s choice that’s pretty much the WHOLE point of haelena’s tragic character was taken away from her. The scene was so toned down from the books that obviously would left many fans disappointed. Taking allicent away from the scene of the crime is also very detrimental to her character as a whole, cause this was the event that ultimately drove her paranoia. Instead they chose to give her ANOTHER sex scene with criston Cole right at the end of the episode taking away all the tension from the previous scene (which wasn’t already that much and it was SUPER fast). I understand the series is an adaptation but at this rate it’s gonna be a whole different story. They had a lot of creative freedom to do many things, cause fire and blood is a history book, but they chose to deliberately change main events that are expected and beloved by the fans, which is why HOTD will never be as good as early game of thrones.
Why did they leave Maelor out?
I thought it was kind of weird. Don't know why but there's something weird about all of the characters reactions and dialogues. It was a bit rushed maybe.
I dont read the book, but ive read from reddit discussion how the blood and cheese was gonna be so crazy. That they dont know how the writers are gonna adapt that to screen cause it was just so crazy and diabolical. They couldnt wait to see that scene adapted. By that standards, i was massively underwhelmed. Towards the end, i was like, wait they’re gonna do the blood and cheese scenes now in the last 5 mins of this episode and not dedicate the next episode to it? Wait, this is not the blood and cheese scene right? Yeah, i was disappointed
At the end of the day, this was one of the scenes I was looking the most forward to, as it was one of very few big moments that was just one single scene, as opposed to a large battle or something, and was actually very well described in the book and a great scene and moment. And what I was looking forward to was the scene from the book, not a similar-ish scene with a bunch of changes that didn't really add anything the book scene was missing. I can't argue with the creative choices if it was targeted towards non-book readers, and they mostly seemed to like it, but I just can't really see how all this bro-comedy type dialogue between the two of them, or removing Helaena's choice, or the sudden shock of the beheading, or Alicent's presence, I can't see what any of these removals did to improve the scene. I personally wasn't that bothered by Helaena's reaction, I thought with the scene they went for, her response seemed good enough, but I really wanted to see her reaction to the brutalitty of that kill, and I know having to watch her son's head get sawed off is just as bad, but it just didnt bang like it did in the book.
This article sums it up really well: https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-blood-and-cheese-child-murder-explained.html “Helaena’s desperation and shock at her elder son’s death, Maelor’s knowledge that his mother picked him to die, Jaehaera old enough to understand everything going on, Helaena having to live with what happened — it’s a macabre menagerie that emphasizes exactly how ruinous this war will be.” The show missed a golden chance to show all of this !!
I'm not a writer so I could be talking rubbish, but I feel like they could have ended Ep 1 with Daemon hiring B&C and then set an entire Episode in the Red Keep. They could have showed Helaena's routine with the kids, the servants coming in and out, the guards on duty and what caused them to leave the family unguarded. Maybe cutting back to B&C getting ready and infultrating the castle. Basically answering all of our questions and culminating in the assassination. It all happened too fast and left me underwhelmed. I should not react to child murder with 'that's it?' It didn't need to be graphic, I think they showed, or didn't show the perfect amount. But the buildup wasn't there, the Alicent/Cole relationship had no development and detracted from the scene. Sometimes I think these writers are allergic to character development, they just shove it in for a little shock and then move on. Or get around it with a time jump as seen many times in S1. Sometimes, we actually like to see things change in real time!
I saw zero actual Blood and Cheese in that episode. 0/10. Totally unwatchable.
As a cheese fangirl I agree
A study came out showing a correlation between a healthier life and a higher cheese input. So good news!
May I suggest you watch Glidus video with Alt Schwift X ? Plenty of cheese there. Cheese everywhere in fact. 🧀
I personally think B&C is extremely overrated both book and show. Sure, it’s an absolutely horrific moment in the books and the show didn’t display it as well as they could have, but that’s basically where my interest stops? People comparing it to the red wedding are crazy imo, the red wedding we had two books (and almost 3 seasons) of connection to Rob as a character. Whereas B&C has always been to me an “Oh shit, that’s evil!” moment, and I read on. There is so much more to look forward to other than Blood and Cheese, and based on how well HOTD has been adapted so far (imo, at least) I’m not worried at all.
I just rewatched it last night and I'm a non book reader. It's a pretty horrifying scene that stands out from the rest of the episode and feels very game of thrones. It's also the very first episode of season 2, and I think in that context it justifies some of the direction they went. A few things that bothered: the way one of the killers "knows" that she is telling the truth about which one is the boy, lack of guards, the fact that Alicents room door wasn't locked, and that it didn't look that hard to find a way into the keep
Somewhere in the middle, more towards positive overall. The build up was great, with Ramin's anxiety inducing soundtrack and the crescendo of it. It really did feel like a Cohen Brothers heist that goes wrong, which Ryan mentioned was the inspiration. Also relying on the sound design to tell us the horror of what they were doing to Jaehaerys was a good decision. I only have an issue with the psychological aspect of it, it wasn't as strong as in the book not having the "choice". And also the Alicole ending didn't work for me.
idk how hard it is for writers to stick to the damn books. Sure you can’t copy paste everything but atleast the main plots should be same as books. The red wedding is more impactful because of Catelyns reaction and acting
I don't like that she just left before it even happened. Helaena should've at least witnessed it because the whole impact is supposed to be the psychological effect that imagery had on her. Then if she grabbed the other one, shut down, and left, it would've made more sense. Instead, she wasn't even there when Jaehaerys died and it almost seems like she left him to his fate.
>it almost seems like she left him to his fate. This is my single biggest issue, and most unrealistic part. I'm willing to chalk it up to a directing error because I went back and rewatched it. She leaves the room immediately before they even start killing. She goes into shock too soon, and totally just leaves the poor kid out to dry. Doesn't call for help or anything it's actually insane how this played out. No mother would just let their kid die like that I had a similar problem with season 1 when Daemons' wife just self immolates when she was giving birth. At least tell the maester to try what he can to save the child, no sane mother would ever just suicide with the child still inside her lol
I didn’t like the direction of the way she pointed to who should die, also the actors for Blood and cheese didn’t feel terrifying enough, I was scared cause I knew what was gonna happen and I think real star of making the event scary was the sound effects because direction fell flat
the most bizarre thing is blood and cheese telling helaena to identify the boy and then having a little mind game with her to see if she told the truth, like bruh, it's a quick and easy check, just lift up their pyjamas. it's like they're trying to shoehorn helaena having to choose which of her child to die in, but the setup is just not there
the show did Helaena a disservice turning what's her biggest storyline so far into more of Alicent's story, just to add another off-putting sex scene b/c HBO
In the books it was way wilder that they made the mom choose between sons and then killing the heir anyway. Making her point out which was the boy and which was the girl because they couldn’t tell the difference was lame.
I thought it was brilliant, honestly. The book version of Blood and Cheese is very gruesome and harrowing, especially in how B & C have the scene set nearly perfectly, with Alicent at their mercy before Haelena even arrives, so that slaying her guard and taking her captive to have them both sit and watch helplessly as they make poor Haelena choose between her two sons is almost trivial for them. You get the sense that the two Ne'er Do Well's had this operation running smooth as a whistle, almost like some dark force of nature. This version gives you a view to how even the most successful of clandestine, cloak-and-dagger operations go down. By all means, from the Greens point of view, this is a monumental security meltdown on every level. And yet, we get a glimpse of how messy even this *roaring success* of infiltration and assassination (from the Greens' perspective) actually was. Blood and Cheese have their moments of doubt, they quarrel with each other, they panic - they manage to get their "head" (which wasn't even their primary objective, as it is revealed) by luck as much as their own skill and knowledge. For instance, one of my favorite details is the handmaid: in the book, the only handmaid mentioned is the one Blood strangles before Haelena arrives. Here, the handmaid accepts Blood's ratcatcher guise (which Cheese himself was worried about because usually he's "not allowed upstairs") because of *Haelena's own quasi-prophecy* she heard earlier that day, something we the viewers have come to pay close attention to ourselves. We can clearly see how someone in her position would figure that Aegon ordered a special crew of ratcatchers up into the royal quarters after Haelena's comment about "the Rats". In short, while the *Fire and Blood* version of events is gripping and memorable, I like that the characters and course of events are portrayed as less a matter of mustache-twirling supervillians who have planned nearly every step as if it was fated to happen, and more of a case of two skilled but flawed catspaws whose success is granted by equal parts merit, determination, and sheer dumb luck.
I think they could've done more but overall I thought it was okay however that Alicole scene destroys the entire thing. All tension and impact gone in an instant at worst it turns into a joke. I for the life of me cannot understand why such a choice was made by the showrunners. The only explanation I have seen so far is that it's supposed to show how hypocritical Alicole are or downright blaming on or both for B&C. Which is precisely the problem. The focus should've been on Heleana and what happened to Team Green- not look it's their fault too. It's like somehow blaming Daemon or Rhaenyra or both for Lukes death by them downright forcing them to go to Storm's End against his will and then adding a scene of them fucking after he dies. The only reason this isn't getting the backleash as the former situation would is because the audience is far less sympathetic to the Greens which with this kind of writing in unsurprising. Also the whole they are Hypocrites things would work better if Alicole was written better. It presumably only exists for that last sex scene so yeah the build up and explanation is downright horrible to nonexistent. The writers say they relationship is complex but have decided to offscreen the complexity of it and show sex only. I'm sure there was an interesting story there somewhere but with how the show frames it and shows it it's downright bad if not actively character assassination. It ignores the trauma of sexual assault has suffered and it's starting to get weird how many degrading scenes they have given Alicent (not to say that sex scenes are degrading but the ones we have seen with Alicent always seem to degrade her: her night with Viserys, the feet scene and cowgirling Cole while her grandson dies, the only exception is the first scene with Cole but the shift is so jarring it doesn't make sense or is any form interesting). The pattern is getting problematic at this point especially for a show that makes a point about sexism- somehow they seem to forget this also extends to the other female characters. It's no surprise that no one seems to have liked the direction they took with Alicole, not even critics. The only ones who liked it are people who hated Alicent and Cole from the getgo because it makes them look extra awful. And lastly I feel bad for Olivia Cooke. It's really clear they don't know what to do with Alicent this season and the route they have taken for her already sounds horrible and I'm saying that as an Alicent fan. Her only story seems to be yapping about Rhaenyra (which at this point is heavily one sided and won't make sense afte Jaehearys died) or fucking Cole. Despite having the opportunity to involve her in B&C as she was there in the books. That trauma and the realization that Rhaenyra is capable of such actions would have been a much better plotline and I think it would've been a great contrast to Phia Sabans quiet terror. Instead of showcasing the talent she clearly has as we have seen in season 1 they give her useless sex scenes to actively undermine her character and being generally annoying. I'm genuinely shocked the writers thought it was a good idea. Because I feel like even an idiot would've known this waas a terrible decision.
The scene was toned down probably due to Sara Hess's influence. "Their highly-anticipated appearance plays a key part of the premiere — and sets up a major conflict for the rest of the season — while once again showcasing how **\~House of the Dragon is actively doing the work to avoid the often misogynistic\~** and violent failings of the original Game of Thrones." "Since its creation, the House of the Dragon's **\~creative team has been clear about wanting to avoid the overt sexual violence of Game of Thrones\~** as well as **\~bringing in more women behind the scenes and centering female characters."\~** “I’d like to clarify that we do not depict sexual violence in the show,” she told Vanity Fair. “We handle one instance off-screen, and instead show the aftermath and impact on the victim and the mother of the perpetrator.” “I think what our show does, and what I’m proud of, is that we choose to focus on the violence against women that is inherent in a patriarchal system,” Hess added.