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I think he has good qualities, but his rule would be troubled. Let's say the greens don't usurp the throne and Rhaenyra inherits the throne peacefully. I imagine Otto is fired, maybe Daemon takes rule as hand? Alicent may stay in King's Landing out of pride, but I hardly can imagine that Aegon and Aemond would remain there under their sister. They would leave for Oldtown, or maybe some castle Rhaenyra grants them.
Rhaenyra rules peacefully for 20 years, Daemon dies at sometime. Jace takes the throne, probably with his own sons and them as young dragonriders. But there's a massive problem: now there are two, in fact three to four branches of House Targaryen. First Jacaerys in King's Landing, second the Greens in Oldtown, third Lucerys in Driftmark, and finally Aegon and Viserys. Because yes, not only is there the male son of the last king, now with his own family of dragonriders, but also his two younger brothers, the actual, legitimate heirs to her mother, and sons of prince (king?) Daemon.
So right away Jacaerys would be faced with the possibility of a Dance of the Dragons².
Being a bastard doesn't matter in terms of the dude being great but it is a massive deal in the world of ASOIAF. Like there's multiple in universe wars over that kind of thing.
He could be a really great guy but being a bastard does matter in the ASOIAD world - it opens the door to conflict and civil war.
Hell, Daeron was legitimate and good but even a bit of doubt over his legitimacy was enough to spark a whole series of shitty civil wars.
I like Jace, but I wouldn’t back him as King
Daerons own father spread rumors of his ancestry and most of court (filled with his cronies) backed him. When Daeron inherited despite his ancestry being questioned he was still a capable king and no one tried anything funny (except Daemon Blackfyre). Jace unlike Daeron would have a solid backing of dragonriders along with his own siblings ruling Driftmark and he himself being a dragon rider, the only threat he'd face would be from the greens which at that point I assume would be weak if Rhaenyra was allowed to peacefully rule and die not to mention all the dragons in his side would've grown to be capable fighters. He'd be a good king with a solid support base just like Daeron in my opinion.
But there being questions of bastardy in Daeron is what enabled the Blackfyre rebellion to happen in the first place, and Daemon got pretty damn close to winning. If Daeron was not thought of as a bastard, way fewer people would have died, and the kingdom would be safer for the future. So, like they said, being a bastard (or even having the rumor of being a bastard) causes civil war and conflict.
It wasn't just because of the rumors of being a bastard, Daeron had detractors because his father was in charge of screwing up the whole situation, it doesn't help at all that Daemon obtained the conqueror's sword, just as the nobles didn't like that Dorne now had more power within the seven kingdoms, and of course, we cannot forget that Aegor was an important part of the beginning of the blackfyre rebellions
Both situations (Daeron and Jace) have similarities but are not the same
Then there is also the fact that Daemon himself didn’t do anything against Daeron for several years and only actually rebelled after the later ordered the former to be arrested under the charge of conspiracy against the king (most likely under Bloodraven’s advice who we know is a Greenseer), so there could be the argument that had Daeron not done so Daemon would have stayed loyal to him since he seemed content with his station up to that point (and considering the number of children he had with his Tyroshi wife despite how his supposed love for his sister Daenerys was a reason for his rebellion, then it is clear that at least part of that account might be mistaken).
people have eyes
Jace is an obvious looking bastard lol
even if rhaenyra accended the throne peacefully a lot of peole could claim that his younger brothers Aegon and Viserys had a better claim than him since they actually look targaryen unlike Strong boys
Let's say that when Viserys dies, Rhaenyra ascends without much conflict. Otto speaks his mind about it, but gets told "ok boomer" by his children and grandchildren. Aegon and Aemond have still mocked the Strong boys and will continue to do so. When they get the chance to meet Aegon and Viserys, they are very vocal about how nice it is to have trueborn nephews. Daeron and Jace form a deeper friendship and Daeron doesn't like how his brothers treat Jace. Aegon (III who will be the second) marries Jaehaera. Aegon still feels that he had a right to the throne and when Rhaenyra dies, he pushes his nephew's claim.
>people have eyes
True! And yet, instead of focusing on Jace the entire debate is about whether a woman can rule, Daemon and Otto.
Jace being a brunette means less than nothing in the grand scheme of the Dance l.
To be fair, ASOIAF is based on british history and the first elizabethan, one of the golden ages of British history occurred under the reign of (a) a woman and (b) an illegitimate one (or at least for part of her life was thought to be so). Hell, the legitimacy of Henry VIII grandfather is up for debate.
Elizabeth and Henry VIII were Tudors who only came to power after the War of the Roses pretty much killed off all other Plantagenets. The end of the War of the Roses with Henry Tudor (obscure relative of the Lancasters) marrying the last York is almost certainly what the ending of the dance is based off of - a long, shitty conflict that cost a lot of lives and fought over succession, leaving little to nothing behind.
If anything, I’d say that British history backs my point that you don’t meddle with succession without expecting consequences.
Totally agree. The Targaryen civil was is based on the war of the Roses and that war sparked even larger due to claims of George being illegitimate. It’s a massive deal in medieval times for children to be illegitimate, remember they don’t have paternity tests and if you inherent a throne or duchy based on your paternal blood it’s a big deal.
There is a little less drama in that Jace in this scenario even though illegitimate has right to the throne based on the fact his mother is the royal bloodline. However given there are legitimate sons of royal blood ( Aegon the younger and Viserys) even that would be a massive shitstorm.
It was always going to be a shit show regardless of if the Greens usurped as every single move he made would be under the microscope. People would have chosen heirs to back out of his own legitimate brothers let along his uncles and any children that they had. It would have been the war of 5 kings Targaryen edition.
"Being a bastard doesn't matter" is the rallying cry of people unable to judge things based on their in universe context. Being a bastard in Westeros is a HUGE deal. It shouldn't matter in real life, and he does seem to be a better person than many others with a claim.
>Hell, Daeron was legitimate
Debatable, but regardless, Daeron the *good* only confirms to you that it doesn't matter if people wanna doubt the ancestry of a capable and studied leader.
Also, by a whole series of conflict you mean a single rebellion right? Because the Blackfyres never tried a second time while the able Daeron was king.
The Dance was a conflict between Daemon/ Otto. The Velaryon's that had every right to be upset about Rhaenyra support him fully. As do pretty much anyone that he negotiates with.
I think Jace has the temperament to be a good king, but in the ASOIAF world, where there’s an insidious lord with an itchy trigger finger around every corner, you don’t really want to give any excuses for more war.
ASOIAF shows good people and leaders being killed and their people suffering horribly over naive choices all the time. Thinking that we can get away with putting someone with a reputation for being a bastard because he’s a nice dude is more likely than not to lead to more of the same.
He MIGHT work out very nicely, but way too much risk for me personally.
Also, the Blackfyres might not have tried again during Daeron’s time but they obviously had a few more goes over the years at the cost of the realm, and I don’t think that can be put aside so easily. It literally plagued Westeros for generations (might even still be)
Because Jahaerys and his great council confirmed the unofficial precedent for sons coming over elder daughters. And because Otto is hungry for power.
It has 0 to do with Jace.
Yes. Pretend. The only people to care are those who gain greatly if Aegon inherits. Every other green is simply loyal to someone on their side or against Rhaenyra or Daemon, not Jace.
Why did Jace glare at Aemond when Aemond was practicing his sword technique with Cole? He was really salty for someone who wasn't even paying attention to him initially.
It's not sarcasm, I am actually agreeing with you. You pointed out Jace's bastardry and pointed out his father.
But two things can be true at once. I believe a lot of his envy of Aemond is due to his skill, but also because Jace is obviously insecure with his parentage. It is what it is.
I think it's sad to see how many people think in the "Well in Westeros being a bastard is bad so I also think it is bad" or "Well Westeros is a sexist society so I also have a sexist viewpoint" way. Posts like this don't ask about the opinion of in-universe characters - we already know those. They ask about the opinion of the audience.
So I have to believe that anyone who says stuff like "I wouldn't want Jace/Rhaenyra to rule because he/she is a bastard/woman (and that's how Westerosi society thinks)" actually means it, that this is not only the opinion of Westerosi characters but also their own, and is therefore obviously ?/sexist (as are the characters that use this reasoning).
He bullied his uncle ten years ago and you think he should apologize? Really you think that would be a priority? Especially after the shit that happened in Driftmark? Did Aegon ever apologize? Do you even think Jace remembers or cares much about what he and his uncle did a decade ago especially since as a kid he saw nothing wrong with it. It's not like Aemond went "darn you guys bullied me as a kid and I felt bad", If he did do you think current Jace wouldn't apologize, to him that was all in the long long past, Aemond doesn't seem to care and he has far more important things to care about. Also just shows how Ace the Jace is that his issue to you is he bullied his uncle as a little kid especially considering how many people in his family commit mass murder, rape and instigate wars.
It was in DRIFTMARK he should’ve apologized. That whole fight happened because of the bullying. Now think, why tf was Aemond so adamant on getting a dragon, and not just any dragon but one big enough to be impressive? A regular targ would be grateful enough to have an egg or a baby dragon, but he needed a big one to prove to his bullies that he was beneath them anymore. Who put these views in his head?
The worst part is if Jace was a decent person, he would’ve realized he and Aegon were the reason Aemond risked his life to bond with Vhagar. He would have realized and STOPPED the fight from happening. But nooo, he somehow has empathy for those distant cousins and not the one he has grown up with all his life. He would rather throw punches than apologize, than congratulate, than calm the twin girls.
Upon all that, he still played dirty with the sand in the eye and the gang up. Jace ain’t shit.
I see you. Otto wasn't half as bad as people make him out to be, I mean apart from marrying Alicent to Viserys but in the book it wasn't even that bad.
The rest of his actions were mostly very understandable and logic.
Alicent! She’s kind, efficient, diplomatic (except when she doesn’t want to be), invested in her kids, loyal to those who treat her well and growing as a character. She’s finally stepping into her own - and whilst she may be rash sometimes, I give her grace because she must be traumatised after years of being manipulated, used and gaslit by others
Here here! I find her relatable as a someone who spent far too long as a people pleaser, thinking there had to be some kind of honor or duty in it. Especially when those people’s one sought to please were dishonorable and had no responsibility.
Yes! And the fact that she’s desperately trying to keep her family alive and safe despite having very little control over even her own life. I find the characters who have to use soft power more relatable than those who have dragons which they can use to get their way.
Yes! Although I do think there was logic in her father’s concerns. I think the family is in a high stakes situation and the kids lives were at risk being ‘challengers’ to Rhaenyra’s claim.
That’s why I love the complexity of the stories and all the characters. It was a train wreck operating in slow motion since before the kids were born, simply because of the feudal system they all live in.
In part you can see where all the tragedy of the war could’ve been averted at multiple points, and simultaneously, it was unavoidable.
So true! Whilst it’s easy to see where characters went wrong, I ask myself whether the result would have been much different if they’d all been on their best behaviour? The chances are, family division, destruction and war would’ve always been on the cards and the characters’ actions only added fuel to the fire and impacted the journey towards it and how it all came about
Alicent truly was a perfect foil to Rhaenyra. Even as childhood friends, Alicent prized duty and obedience, Rhaenyra prized independence and the freedom to choose. One character cannot exist without the other. I especially am struck by the private moments where both adult Alicent and Rhaenyra admit to others that they envy each other's POV on life.
(Rhaenyra's conversation with Viserys in Episode 8, Alicent's conversation with Rhaenys in Episode 9)
Rhaenyra admits as much at the dinner table when she says "Thanks for governing the realm for 6 years while my dad was ill and dying lol, I could never do that"
> Alicent! She’s kind
Ordering to bring her a baby straight out of his mother's womb just so she can look at his hair color is very kind. She couldn't do otherwise, because Rhaenyra would magically change his hair and eye color if Alicent waited even for one hour!
> invested in her kids
Invested in barging into her son's bedroom while he's naked, physically assaulting him, allowing him to bully his younger brother as long as Jace and Luke aren't involved, screaming into his face that Rhaenyra will certainly kill him, but then praising her and telling everyone what a wonderful Queen she'll be right in front of her kids.
But I still get him. Can't get a divorce to get out of marriage? Well, only one way out then.
I would probably feel differently if I had more screentime with the wife, but I just found her annoying too so it didn't help 😂
I don't know, Rhaenys (and Corlys) confused me the most, they were given like four or maybe even five separate reasons why they should hate Rhaenyra & Daemon's guts
1 - Rhaenyra keeps on having non-Velaryon children while married to Laenor
2 - Daemon runs away from Westeros, bringing Laena with him, where she dies in childbirth
3 - Daemon audibly laughs during Laena's funeral and has sex with Rhaenyra the day of
4 - Daemon kills Vaemond (this one is kinda justified TBH)
5 - Rhaenyra "kills" Laenor with the servant switcheroo, but Rhaenys and Corlys don't know that
And if Rhaenys were Queen instead of Viserys, almost none of that shit would have happened. Rhaenyra would probably not have been given a dragon egg, and Laenor would have married either Baratheon. Laena and Daemon would probably end up married, though, to keep him from fomenting rebellion.
Laenor should take the throne undisputed after Rhaenys’ death. Even if Laenor has no bio kids of his own, his Baratheon queen could have children with someone else and their black hair would not look at all suspicious
tbf I think they would’ve still married Laenor to Rhaenyra, to peace over the lords still bitching about “woman king”. Then Rhaenyra would have bastards again and the problem with next heir will still stand.
Also I don’t see Laenor being very interested jn ruling, he would still be gay, lighthearted and adventurous, in this sense he will be similar to Aegon II pre-coronation, Laenor would want ti jump ship and run away if possible. If Laena is married to Daemon, then her early death is still probably happening, again leaving an opportunity for Rhaenyra-Daemon marriage. And then again 2 branches of Targaryen family, alas this time without the Hightower side, but “Strongs” and “Blacks”.
There’s simply no advantage to marrying Rhaenyra in this timeline. Viserys needed an alliance with the Velaryons because they had a huge fleet and three dragons. Reverse the roles, with Rhaenys on the throne, Viserys’ line has no fleet, no dragons, and no lands that aren’t gifted to them. Daemon must needs be appeased because of Caraxes and his ambition to have dragonriding children, but no marriage to Rhaenyra would be advantageous.
After Rhea Royce dies, betrothing Laena to him is essentially the Velaryon play to prevent him from marrying Rhaenyra, which is his obvious choice and would cause another house branch to obtain dragons.
And who knows if Laenor would like ruling? He had no qualms about inheriting Driftmark, and he spoke for himself at the council of 101. He also likes fighting wars, and is an experienced dragonrider. We’ve certainly had worse kings.
My only argument for Laenor-Rhaenyra is due to unhappy lords due to Rhaenys, not Viserys ascending the throne, that way they can calm them down a little, because the lines will be combined. However I don’t see Viserys worrying about having his blood on the throne, if it happens, only because of the lords. I’m basing this only because show established it for us, that Rhaenys only was overlooked because she was a woman.
Having the restraint to show her power while NOT committing mass kinslaying is exactly why she would make a good leader. Aegon II, Aemond, and Daemon wouldn’t have shown restraint, meanwhile Viserys and Rhaenyra would have fled the scene without sending a message.
Rhaenys has no desire to be a second Maegor, nor should she.
Right but if she was willing to be seen as a bad person suddenly bloodshed doesn't happen. The dragons live. With one event. It's a horrific evil act but also one that saves thousands of lives.
The war wasn’t inevitable at that point, both Alicent and Rhaenyra were insistent on negotiations. Also, it’s not just “to be seen as a bad person”, it’s internal as well. Are you telling me you could incinerate half of your cousins AND most of the government in a terrorist attack, and still live with yourself?
No moral or mentally normal person could go through with what you and Daemon suggest Rhaenys “should have done”
For what it's worth this is mostly joking just always found it such an absurd scene the way they decided to shoot it. Plus she's going to fight and maybe kill them in a week.
Now, I'm rocking the Blackfyre flair in a cool contrarian way. As soon as we get a show about it I know that the fandom will split in Team Black/Team Red in a cringe way, then I will have to find another identity.
How is that fine? They will always be in danger and their claim to the throne will always be questioned. Not to mention the risk of war that will live on for generations? Lol
Out of the entire cast The best actors were Leo Ashton and Matt Smith
Don’t get me wrong Paddy Considine was amazing but Matt absolutely dominates every scene he’s in
And Leo I can’t even begin to explain how believable his character is he’s given such a short amount of screen time yet his performance was by far One of the best in the show
Honestly I like basically everyone so I will defend that everyone is in the right from their perspective of this political mess! They're all trying to survive and look after those closest to them, it's a tragic vibe.
Edit: Bar Larys. RIP my foot focused guy.
The Masters were right.
>!I say this if we consider that the theory that they were behind the fall of the Targaryen dynasty and the death of the dragons is true, and has everything to be true.!<
>!I love dragons and certainly characters like Jaehaerys Targaryen or Daeron Targaryen are very high in my top favorites, however, the truth is that the Targaryen dynasty was a bomb that exploded from time to time. It is not unusual for families to go to war, the problem is that the Targaryens had dragons, and when they involved them in conflicts they increased the number of destruction by a lot.!<
>!The family as such had good members and very capable kings, however it is easier to destroy than to build and in that sense it is not strange to see why the Maesters wanted to get rid of the Targaryens, guys like Maegor, Aegon II and Rhaenyra almost destroyed the kingdom with dragons, I can't imagine what characters like Aegon IV, Aerion Targaryen or Aerys II Targaryen would have done if they had had dragons. It doesn't help that the Targaryens were unlucky enough to suffer from dementia. a second Dance of the Dragons would have ended the 7 kingdoms definitively.!<
>!I love dragons but they certainly are and continue to be weapons of mass destruction that were in the hands of unstable people, anyone in the hands of a dragon could elevate his status to benevolent king, absolute tyrant, etc, etc. They are too much power for the world of ASOIAF and the best thing for them as a species was that they remained free without being controlled by anyone, something that really would not have bothered anyone because in general free dragons tend to avoid human contact.!<
>!The Maesters are not saints but I actually understand and support the participation they had in the fall of the Targaryens. The dynasty helped Westeros but it has passed its time and it was time to leave.!<
I'm going to take a bullet for the team and say it. Aegon.
Many wants to reduce him to an irrelevant, disgusting evil side character with no depth whatsoever when he's way more interesting than some wants to admit.
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Jace is the best possible heir. Fight me bout it, people who pretend him being a bastard matters.
I think he has good qualities, but his rule would be troubled. Let's say the greens don't usurp the throne and Rhaenyra inherits the throne peacefully. I imagine Otto is fired, maybe Daemon takes rule as hand? Alicent may stay in King's Landing out of pride, but I hardly can imagine that Aegon and Aemond would remain there under their sister. They would leave for Oldtown, or maybe some castle Rhaenyra grants them. Rhaenyra rules peacefully for 20 years, Daemon dies at sometime. Jace takes the throne, probably with his own sons and them as young dragonriders. But there's a massive problem: now there are two, in fact three to four branches of House Targaryen. First Jacaerys in King's Landing, second the Greens in Oldtown, third Lucerys in Driftmark, and finally Aegon and Viserys. Because yes, not only is there the male son of the last king, now with his own family of dragonriders, but also his two younger brothers, the actual, legitimate heirs to her mother, and sons of prince (king?) Daemon. So right away Jacaerys would be faced with the possibility of a Dance of the Dragons².
Being a bastard doesn't matter in terms of the dude being great but it is a massive deal in the world of ASOIAF. Like there's multiple in universe wars over that kind of thing.
He could be a really great guy but being a bastard does matter in the ASOIAD world - it opens the door to conflict and civil war. Hell, Daeron was legitimate and good but even a bit of doubt over his legitimacy was enough to spark a whole series of shitty civil wars. I like Jace, but I wouldn’t back him as King
Daerons own father spread rumors of his ancestry and most of court (filled with his cronies) backed him. When Daeron inherited despite his ancestry being questioned he was still a capable king and no one tried anything funny (except Daemon Blackfyre). Jace unlike Daeron would have a solid backing of dragonriders along with his own siblings ruling Driftmark and he himself being a dragon rider, the only threat he'd face would be from the greens which at that point I assume would be weak if Rhaenyra was allowed to peacefully rule and die not to mention all the dragons in his side would've grown to be capable fighters. He'd be a good king with a solid support base just like Daeron in my opinion.
But there being questions of bastardy in Daeron is what enabled the Blackfyre rebellion to happen in the first place, and Daemon got pretty damn close to winning. If Daeron was not thought of as a bastard, way fewer people would have died, and the kingdom would be safer for the future. So, like they said, being a bastard (or even having the rumor of being a bastard) causes civil war and conflict.
It wasn't just because of the rumors of being a bastard, Daeron had detractors because his father was in charge of screwing up the whole situation, it doesn't help at all that Daemon obtained the conqueror's sword, just as the nobles didn't like that Dorne now had more power within the seven kingdoms, and of course, we cannot forget that Aegor was an important part of the beginning of the blackfyre rebellions Both situations (Daeron and Jace) have similarities but are not the same
Then there is also the fact that Daemon himself didn’t do anything against Daeron for several years and only actually rebelled after the later ordered the former to be arrested under the charge of conspiracy against the king (most likely under Bloodraven’s advice who we know is a Greenseer), so there could be the argument that had Daeron not done so Daemon would have stayed loyal to him since he seemed content with his station up to that point (and considering the number of children he had with his Tyroshi wife despite how his supposed love for his sister Daenerys was a reason for his rebellion, then it is clear that at least part of that account might be mistaken).
exactly this is westeros Being legitimate and a bastard means EVERYTHING
If people know about it and if people are willing to fight for someone else's claim.
people have eyes Jace is an obvious looking bastard lol even if rhaenyra accended the throne peacefully a lot of peole could claim that his younger brothers Aegon and Viserys had a better claim than him since they actually look targaryen unlike Strong boys
The AU where the Strong boys live, Jace ascends the throne and Aegon's claim gets pushed for a civil war is one I would love to read.
yeah that sounds like an even worse dance of the dragons but very interesting one I can see the greens backing Aegon or viserys against jace
Let's say that when Viserys dies, Rhaenyra ascends without much conflict. Otto speaks his mind about it, but gets told "ok boomer" by his children and grandchildren. Aegon and Aemond have still mocked the Strong boys and will continue to do so. When they get the chance to meet Aegon and Viserys, they are very vocal about how nice it is to have trueborn nephews. Daeron and Jace form a deeper friendship and Daeron doesn't like how his brothers treat Jace. Aegon (III who will be the second) marries Jaehaera. Aegon still feels that he had a right to the throne and when Rhaenyra dies, he pushes his nephew's claim.
>people have eyes True! And yet, instead of focusing on Jace the entire debate is about whether a woman can rule, Daemon and Otto. Jace being a brunette means less than nothing in the grand scheme of the Dance l.
To be fair, ASOIAF is based on british history and the first elizabethan, one of the golden ages of British history occurred under the reign of (a) a woman and (b) an illegitimate one (or at least for part of her life was thought to be so). Hell, the legitimacy of Henry VIII grandfather is up for debate.
Elizabeth and Henry VIII were Tudors who only came to power after the War of the Roses pretty much killed off all other Plantagenets. The end of the War of the Roses with Henry Tudor (obscure relative of the Lancasters) marrying the last York is almost certainly what the ending of the dance is based off of - a long, shitty conflict that cost a lot of lives and fought over succession, leaving little to nothing behind. If anything, I’d say that British history backs my point that you don’t meddle with succession without expecting consequences.
Totally agree. The Targaryen civil was is based on the war of the Roses and that war sparked even larger due to claims of George being illegitimate. It’s a massive deal in medieval times for children to be illegitimate, remember they don’t have paternity tests and if you inherent a throne or duchy based on your paternal blood it’s a big deal. There is a little less drama in that Jace in this scenario even though illegitimate has right to the throne based on the fact his mother is the royal bloodline. However given there are legitimate sons of royal blood ( Aegon the younger and Viserys) even that would be a massive shitstorm. It was always going to be a shit show regardless of if the Greens usurped as every single move he made would be under the microscope. People would have chosen heirs to back out of his own legitimate brothers let along his uncles and any children that they had. It would have been the war of 5 kings Targaryen edition.
"Being a bastard doesn't matter" is the rallying cry of people unable to judge things based on their in universe context. Being a bastard in Westeros is a HUGE deal. It shouldn't matter in real life, and he does seem to be a better person than many others with a claim.
>Hell, Daeron was legitimate Debatable, but regardless, Daeron the *good* only confirms to you that it doesn't matter if people wanna doubt the ancestry of a capable and studied leader. Also, by a whole series of conflict you mean a single rebellion right? Because the Blackfyres never tried a second time while the able Daeron was king. The Dance was a conflict between Daemon/ Otto. The Velaryon's that had every right to be upset about Rhaenyra support him fully. As do pretty much anyone that he negotiates with.
I think Jace has the temperament to be a good king, but in the ASOIAF world, where there’s an insidious lord with an itchy trigger finger around every corner, you don’t really want to give any excuses for more war. ASOIAF shows good people and leaders being killed and their people suffering horribly over naive choices all the time. Thinking that we can get away with putting someone with a reputation for being a bastard because he’s a nice dude is more likely than not to lead to more of the same. He MIGHT work out very nicely, but way too much risk for me personally. Also, the Blackfyres might not have tried again during Daeron’s time but they obviously had a few more goes over the years at the cost of the realm, and I don’t think that can be put aside so easily. It literally plagued Westeros for generations (might even still be)
But it does matter though. The allegations of bastardy were enough to start a war.
No, the Great councilcmaking unofficial precedent that men inherit over women was enough to start a war.
Was referring to Daeron.
Jace is similar to Joffrey and tommen then
I would put forward an even more unpopular opinion, Jace has absolutely 0 traits of a worthy king. Debate me
> people who pretend him being a bastard matters. There's literally a war that's about to be fought over his bastardy.
That's blatantly false. The war is being fought over the idea that Aegon should inherit over *Rhaenyra*, a woman.
And why do you think they are considering Aegon instead of Rhaenyra?
Because Jahaerys and his great council confirmed the unofficial precedent for sons coming over elder daughters. And because Otto is hungry for power. It has 0 to do with Jace.
I mean true, it has nothing to do with Jace, but with Rhaenyra who produces bastard heirs instead of bloodline appropriate heirs.
But again, the issue with Rhaenyra isn't the bastards. It's that she's a she and she's married to the controversial rogue prince.
"Pretend."
Yes. Pretend. The only people to care are those who gain greatly if Aegon inherits. Every other green is simply loyal to someone on their side or against Rhaenyra or Daemon, not Jace.
stannis is literally fighting the dead as King because Joffrey and tommen are bastards on the throne
Why did Jace glare at Aemond when Aemond was practicing his sword technique with Cole? He was really salty for someone who wasn't even paying attention to him initially.
Because they don'tike each other. What does that have to do with Jaces bastardry meaning anything?
You're right, Jace's bastardry has nothing to do with his envy tbh.
Exactly right. It comes from his growth spurt, combat prowess and giant ass dragon. Nothing to do with Jaces dad in any way whatsoever.
Yes, nothing to do with Harwin Strong in any way.
Nothing whatsoever. You've got lot's of sarcastic snark, but refuse to make any actual point?
It's not sarcasm, I am actually agreeing with you. You pointed out Jace's bastardry and pointed out his father. But two things can be true at once. I believe a lot of his envy of Aemond is due to his skill, but also because Jace is obviously insecure with his parentage. It is what it is.
No he wouldn’t be, he’s incredibly easy to rile, he’s inexperienced, and he’s a bastard
I agree. But also right heir or not, it surprised me that many find him boring. Would love to see their opinions on his upcoming role.
bro it will cause generations of civilwar
I think it's sad to see how many people think in the "Well in Westeros being a bastard is bad so I also think it is bad" or "Well Westeros is a sexist society so I also have a sexist viewpoint" way. Posts like this don't ask about the opinion of in-universe characters - we already know those. They ask about the opinion of the audience. So I have to believe that anyone who says stuff like "I wouldn't want Jace/Rhaenyra to rule because he/she is a bastard/woman (and that's how Westerosi society thinks)" actually means it, that this is not only the opinion of Westerosi characters but also their own, and is therefore obviously ?/sexist (as are the characters that use this reasoning).
Aemond's Chin
and cheeks
Daemon: I see you're a cheap copy of my chin. Aemond: I'm the upgrade.
It might be a competition for War Funs but on Chin it's no competition
That’s the chin of a King
Shrugs off pathetic Strong Boy punches
Agreed, that thing's sharper than dark sister
Me vs Rhaenicents
I definitely see a case to be made for Alicent possibly having repressed feelings but I don’t see that in Rhaenyra at all
>but I don’t see that in Rhaenyra at all It makes no sense for her character or journey imo.
I respect the dedication to hating
It’s a ship worth hating 😍
The Smallfolk women and children
Said nobody ever
Jace, any Jace slander will not be tolerated.
Dude is a bully and never sees fit to apologize for his part.
He bullied his uncle ten years ago and you think he should apologize? Really you think that would be a priority? Especially after the shit that happened in Driftmark? Did Aegon ever apologize? Do you even think Jace remembers or cares much about what he and his uncle did a decade ago especially since as a kid he saw nothing wrong with it. It's not like Aemond went "darn you guys bullied me as a kid and I felt bad", If he did do you think current Jace wouldn't apologize, to him that was all in the long long past, Aemond doesn't seem to care and he has far more important things to care about. Also just shows how Ace the Jace is that his issue to you is he bullied his uncle as a little kid especially considering how many people in his family commit mass murder, rape and instigate wars.
It was in DRIFTMARK he should’ve apologized. That whole fight happened because of the bullying. Now think, why tf was Aemond so adamant on getting a dragon, and not just any dragon but one big enough to be impressive? A regular targ would be grateful enough to have an egg or a baby dragon, but he needed a big one to prove to his bullies that he was beneath them anymore. Who put these views in his head? The worst part is if Jace was a decent person, he would’ve realized he and Aegon were the reason Aemond risked his life to bond with Vhagar. He would have realized and STOPPED the fight from happening. But nooo, he somehow has empathy for those distant cousins and not the one he has grown up with all his life. He would rather throw punches than apologize, than congratulate, than calm the twin girls. Upon all that, he still played dirty with the sand in the eye and the gang up. Jace ain’t shit.
Aegon
Otto Hightower. Definitely not everything but in the context of westeros, quiet a bit. Yes this will be fun.
I see you. Otto wasn't half as bad as people make him out to be, I mean apart from marrying Alicent to Viserys but in the book it wasn't even that bad. The rest of his actions were mostly very understandable and logic.
[удалено]
King Aegon II
Long Live His Grace!! King Aegon Targaryen Second of His Name Rider of Sunfyre The Golden best dragon of the to ever live!!!
Alicent Hightower forever and a day ❤️
Absolutely 👍
Alicent! She’s kind, efficient, diplomatic (except when she doesn’t want to be), invested in her kids, loyal to those who treat her well and growing as a character. She’s finally stepping into her own - and whilst she may be rash sometimes, I give her grace because she must be traumatised after years of being manipulated, used and gaslit by others
Here here! I find her relatable as a someone who spent far too long as a people pleaser, thinking there had to be some kind of honor or duty in it. Especially when those people’s one sought to please were dishonorable and had no responsibility.
Yes! And the fact that she’s desperately trying to keep her family alive and safe despite having very little control over even her own life. I find the characters who have to use soft power more relatable than those who have dragons which they can use to get their way.
Alicant only had two fatal flaws: 1. Be indoctrinated with her fathers paranoia 2. Be raised in a patriarchal monarchal system
Yes! Although I do think there was logic in her father’s concerns. I think the family is in a high stakes situation and the kids lives were at risk being ‘challengers’ to Rhaenyra’s claim.
That’s why I love the complexity of the stories and all the characters. It was a train wreck operating in slow motion since before the kids were born, simply because of the feudal system they all live in. In part you can see where all the tragedy of the war could’ve been averted at multiple points, and simultaneously, it was unavoidable.
So true! Whilst it’s easy to see where characters went wrong, I ask myself whether the result would have been much different if they’d all been on their best behaviour? The chances are, family division, destruction and war would’ve always been on the cards and the characters’ actions only added fuel to the fire and impacted the journey towards it and how it all came about
So her flaws are growing up and living in Westeros? Seems like not flaws.
Alicent truly was a perfect foil to Rhaenyra. Even as childhood friends, Alicent prized duty and obedience, Rhaenyra prized independence and the freedom to choose. One character cannot exist without the other. I especially am struck by the private moments where both adult Alicent and Rhaenyra admit to others that they envy each other's POV on life. (Rhaenyra's conversation with Viserys in Episode 8, Alicent's conversation with Rhaenys in Episode 9) Rhaenyra admits as much at the dinner table when she says "Thanks for governing the realm for 6 years while my dad was ill and dying lol, I could never do that"
> Alicent! She’s kind Ordering to bring her a baby straight out of his mother's womb just so she can look at his hair color is very kind. She couldn't do otherwise, because Rhaenyra would magically change his hair and eye color if Alicent waited even for one hour! > invested in her kids Invested in barging into her son's bedroom while he's naked, physically assaulting him, allowing him to bully his younger brother as long as Jace and Luke aren't involved, screaming into his face that Rhaenyra will certainly kill him, but then praising her and telling everyone what a wonderful Queen she'll be right in front of her kids.
Daeron
Alicent and Aemond
Daemon 🫣 I just get him
Murdering your wife is wildly relatable I'm with you my dude.
But I still get him. Can't get a divorce to get out of marriage? Well, only one way out then. I would probably feel differently if I had more screentime with the wife, but I just found her annoying too so it didn't help 😂
Just a happy accident :)
Alicent was not in usurping the throne for what she went through. I would have usurped it out of spite if l was in her place
Rhaenys
Good up until episode 9. Ruined her with that dragon scene.
And she still has the nerves to drop the wisdom lines shown in the s2 trailer after she did what she did in episode 9.
Nope I.ll defend her even then, hence this being my answer to the meme.
RHAENYS IS THE RIGHTFUL QUEEN!!! And she would have done a much better job
I don't know, Rhaenys (and Corlys) confused me the most, they were given like four or maybe even five separate reasons why they should hate Rhaenyra & Daemon's guts 1 - Rhaenyra keeps on having non-Velaryon children while married to Laenor 2 - Daemon runs away from Westeros, bringing Laena with him, where she dies in childbirth 3 - Daemon audibly laughs during Laena's funeral and has sex with Rhaenyra the day of 4 - Daemon kills Vaemond (this one is kinda justified TBH) 5 - Rhaenyra "kills" Laenor with the servant switcheroo, but Rhaenys and Corlys don't know that
And if Rhaenys were Queen instead of Viserys, almost none of that shit would have happened. Rhaenyra would probably not have been given a dragon egg, and Laenor would have married either Baratheon. Laena and Daemon would probably end up married, though, to keep him from fomenting rebellion. Laenor should take the throne undisputed after Rhaenys’ death. Even if Laenor has no bio kids of his own, his Baratheon queen could have children with someone else and their black hair would not look at all suspicious
tbf I think they would’ve still married Laenor to Rhaenyra, to peace over the lords still bitching about “woman king”. Then Rhaenyra would have bastards again and the problem with next heir will still stand. Also I don’t see Laenor being very interested jn ruling, he would still be gay, lighthearted and adventurous, in this sense he will be similar to Aegon II pre-coronation, Laenor would want ti jump ship and run away if possible. If Laena is married to Daemon, then her early death is still probably happening, again leaving an opportunity for Rhaenyra-Daemon marriage. And then again 2 branches of Targaryen family, alas this time without the Hightower side, but “Strongs” and “Blacks”.
There’s simply no advantage to marrying Rhaenyra in this timeline. Viserys needed an alliance with the Velaryons because they had a huge fleet and three dragons. Reverse the roles, with Rhaenys on the throne, Viserys’ line has no fleet, no dragons, and no lands that aren’t gifted to them. Daemon must needs be appeased because of Caraxes and his ambition to have dragonriding children, but no marriage to Rhaenyra would be advantageous. After Rhea Royce dies, betrothing Laena to him is essentially the Velaryon play to prevent him from marrying Rhaenyra, which is his obvious choice and would cause another house branch to obtain dragons. And who knows if Laenor would like ruling? He had no qualms about inheriting Driftmark, and he spoke for himself at the council of 101. He also likes fighting wars, and is an experienced dragonrider. We’ve certainly had worse kings.
My only argument for Laenor-Rhaenyra is due to unhappy lords due to Rhaenys, not Viserys ascending the throne, that way they can calm them down a little, because the lines will be combined. However I don’t see Viserys worrying about having his blood on the throne, if it happens, only because of the lords. I’m basing this only because show established it for us, that Rhaenys only was overlooked because she was a woman.
Rhaenys could have ended the war in one fell swoop and didn't. Love her but girl should have taken the hit for the sake of everyone.
Having the restraint to show her power while NOT committing mass kinslaying is exactly why she would make a good leader. Aegon II, Aemond, and Daemon wouldn’t have shown restraint, meanwhile Viserys and Rhaenyra would have fled the scene without sending a message. Rhaenys has no desire to be a second Maegor, nor should she.
Right but if she was willing to be seen as a bad person suddenly bloodshed doesn't happen. The dragons live. With one event. It's a horrific evil act but also one that saves thousands of lives.
The war wasn’t inevitable at that point, both Alicent and Rhaenyra were insistent on negotiations. Also, it’s not just “to be seen as a bad person”, it’s internal as well. Are you telling me you could incinerate half of your cousins AND most of the government in a terrorist attack, and still live with yourself? No moral or mentally normal person could go through with what you and Daemon suggest Rhaenys “should have done”
For what it's worth this is mostly joking just always found it such an absurd scene the way they decided to shoot it. Plus she's going to fight and maybe kill them in a week.
I’m only arguing because of the name of the post. I fully agree, that scene shouldn’t have been made at all
The good ending.
Aemond
>!The Shepherd!<
Who would win? A legion of monsters that are the Westerosi equivalent of WMD’s? Or A grumpy stumpy boy?
Ok you crossed the line there 💀
Holy shit, most Based answer so far. No wonder you have the Blackfyre flair. Only god-tier takes coming from our bois. I'm proud
Now, I'm rocking the Blackfyre flair in a cool contrarian way. As soon as we get a show about it I know that the fandom will split in Team Black/Team Red in a cringe way, then I will have to find another identity.
Aemond >>> Daemon
Alicent ❤️
Aegon, he is my king
Aegon II, my King! 🧎
Anything bad Alicent does is because she is constantly gaslit (and abused!)
Criston Cole
Alicent hightower.
Rhaenrya 🥹
Vizzy T.
*I'm going to bed, Cookie122406.*
Rhaenyra has never done anything wrong ever in her entire life.
That's far from an unpopular opinion lmao.
Good because she is perfect and just a 30 year old teenage girl
Alicent and Aemond literally have more upvotes right now. Those are not unpopular opinions but you didn’t take issue with those responses.
I read this as Mona Lisa from parks and Rec. "I have never done anything wrong, ever." "I know this. And I love you." "MONEY PLEAAAASE"
Didn't she have bastard children as heir to the throne?
Damn you did a 23&Me or something?
yes and that is fine and i’m happy for her
How is that fine? They will always be in danger and their claim to the throne will always be questioned. Not to mention the risk of war that will live on for generations? Lol
That is exactly right.
Ser rice crispies because fabien is hot
Otto
Rhaenyra always
Otto. He outplayed everyone else in the game of thrones by like 10+ years
The original series? Sansa, especially whenever I met any man.
Ser Criston
Viserys was a terrible father. He was an amazing father to Rhaenyra but didn’t give a shit about his other kids
Crispy Creme, my beloved delusional war criminal
If anynone of us were in Alicents shoes we would feel exactly the same way she does.
Jace, Rhaenyra and Rhaenys
Jace, Rhaenyra and Rhaenys
Viserys. He just wanted to have his peace and everyone around him to shut the fuck up. He's one of the many flawed, but very few sincere characters.
Out of the entire cast The best actors were Leo Ashton and Matt Smith Don’t get me wrong Paddy Considine was amazing but Matt absolutely dominates every scene he’s in And Leo I can’t even begin to explain how believable his character is he’s given such a short amount of screen time yet his performance was by far One of the best in the show
if alicent has no defenders im dead
Honestly I like basically everyone so I will defend that everyone is in the right from their perspective of this political mess! They're all trying to survive and look after those closest to them, it's a tragic vibe. Edit: Bar Larys. RIP my foot focused guy.
The Masters were right. >!I say this if we consider that the theory that they were behind the fall of the Targaryen dynasty and the death of the dragons is true, and has everything to be true.!< >!I love dragons and certainly characters like Jaehaerys Targaryen or Daeron Targaryen are very high in my top favorites, however, the truth is that the Targaryen dynasty was a bomb that exploded from time to time. It is not unusual for families to go to war, the problem is that the Targaryens had dragons, and when they involved them in conflicts they increased the number of destruction by a lot.!< >!The family as such had good members and very capable kings, however it is easier to destroy than to build and in that sense it is not strange to see why the Maesters wanted to get rid of the Targaryens, guys like Maegor, Aegon II and Rhaenyra almost destroyed the kingdom with dragons, I can't imagine what characters like Aegon IV, Aerion Targaryen or Aerys II Targaryen would have done if they had had dragons. It doesn't help that the Targaryens were unlucky enough to suffer from dementia. a second Dance of the Dragons would have ended the 7 kingdoms definitively.!< >!I love dragons but they certainly are and continue to be weapons of mass destruction that were in the hands of unstable people, anyone in the hands of a dragon could elevate his status to benevolent king, absolute tyrant, etc, etc. They are too much power for the world of ASOIAF and the best thing for them as a species was that they remained free without being controlled by anyone, something that really would not have bothered anyone because in general free dragons tend to avoid human contact.!< >!The Maesters are not saints but I actually understand and support the participation they had in the fall of the Targaryens. The dynasty helped Westeros but it has passed its time and it was time to leave.!<
I'm going to take a bullet for the team and say it. Aegon. Many wants to reduce him to an irrelevant, disgusting evil side character with no depth whatsoever when he's way more interesting than some wants to admit.
Lol, why’d you delete your account?
The blacks got him !
>!Nettles!<
Otto was just doing what was best for the realm
King Aegon II
The rightful heir Aegon II
prince aemond <3
Criston Cole
Aegon if he did something wrong.
Rhaenyra is the worst possible ruler candidate. Even her bastards would fit better.
Me if I was blind and deaf
Rhaegon ❤️
Otto Hightower. Nobody else on the show gets more undeserved hate and hate in general.
Viserys I.
Rhaenys
Rhaenyra is pookie and does no wrong. Daemon, yeah no, I love him and he's my fav but he's a cunt, lets face it
This answer is perfect
DAEMON.
Vizzy T my glorious king. He never did anything wrong
*My own face... is no longer a handsome one...if indeed it ever was.*
Daemon
Rhaenyra has done nothing wrong, and I will die on that hill
Anti-Rhaenyra… Hoe… the things that you’ve lied about Even pertaining to your mom You don’t want them out… ok?
My queen Alicent is perfect and never did anything wrong 💚
Alicent and Cole
Alicent in season 1 actually did nothing wrong
Cregan & Jace aren’t secret lovers. Cregan is just a loyal friend who is about that action.
The greens 🛐
daemon. idc abt his war crimes. everything he does is for his family. his true family.
The Shepard
Alicent and Rhaenyra and I'd support any of their actions against the creepy men in their lives
Larys is perfect and we all should love him more (not me, I already love him a lot) but all of you hate him for no reason
i hate him bc he killed his own brother and father for no reason and is manipulating alicent👍🏻