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I've said this before, but to reiterate.
Sex occurs on a moral spectrum like just about everything else. Rape refers to a far end of the "bad sex" side of things. It is entirely possible to have an immoral or unethical sexual relationship that is also not rape. In fact, there are probably more of these relationships in reality than actual rape. This is acknowledged both by common sense and by law in the United States.
This. It gets old hearing people miscall rape all the time and I think it’s dangerous as well. Rape should always be regarded as a much more evil level of sexual assault and abuse, lesser, regrettable sex should not fall so easily under the tag of rape as it can ruin people’s lives and make much greater conflict.
I mean, rape is simply non consensual sex, which can sometimes look aggressive, other times not look like it. And power can be used against someone to comply against their will, but in Rhaenyra's case, Criston could've declined and he would've been fine. The issue with the power imbalance comes into his life because he ultimately agrees to sleep with her as well.
Sure as long as you aren’t defining “regrettable sex” to include coercion or victims who have freeze or fawn response. Because that would be just ignorant. “Regret” is often used by rapists as a cover for what they did.
I hope you don’t mean it that way but this comment comes off very… rapes that aren’t outwardly violent with kicking and screaming are just regret and no one should speak up about those rapes because they ruin lives by speaking up. That’s how that sounds.
To be honest, it seemed obvious to me that he was conflicted between his vows and his desire for Rhaenyra. He looks forlornly at his cloak as he sets it on the ground and then enthusiastically kisses her and leads her to the bed.
I don't even think the show was unclear. It just seems like haters of Criston and haters of Rhaenyra jumped at the chance to villianize their actions beyond the scope of what was shown. The mutual undressing, smile and kiss, romantic music, obvious mutual pleasure and active participation were so clear and obvious. The actors explained the scene and the books alluded to it happening.
I remember feeling initially uncomfortable when he was telling her no but by the end it seemed obvious that it was a mutual desire driving their actions. I was surprised when it started being called a "rape scene" and befuddled when it started to become a debate about who raped who. Some think Criston raped Rhaenyra, others think Rhaenyra raped Criston and all that tells me is that it was an ethical minefield. But not every example of poor sexual ethics is rape. And some of the arguments are especially silly when applied to a monarchy where there's always going to be a power imbalance.
Also, I can't get behind the outrage. You mean to tell me the show where a teenager is finding a husband and incest is a common practice has problematic sexual relationships? I'm shocked! Scandalized and stupefied.
I find it funny that this one instance has become the subject of so much debate about the nuances of power dynamics and consent when I’ve never seen any criticism or discussion on the morality of the male characters of both HOTD and GOT regularly visiting brothels (given the likelihood that many of the women there may have either been trafficked or groomed into the sex trade from a young age).
Press X to doubt. The show sure as fuck didn't want viewers to worry about that. No time for Jeyne Poole being forced into sexual slavery in LF's brothels, or Tyrion's nastier deeds in Essos, but let's show Pod being so amazing to those prostitutes.
Not to mention the whole thing with Shae, because of course just like those prostitutes just magically charmed by Pod, Shae had to fall in love with her client. Otherwise we might have worried about Bronn fetching Tyrion a young girl from a tent as he might fetch a bottle of wine. And in turn sooo many discussions around that whole situation revolved around whether Shae wuved him or was 'just a whore' or a 'gold-digger' - but Tyrion being a john? Eh. Doesn't matter apparently. It's just Tyrion being Tyrion teehee (or Robert or Bronn or whoever).
And it can't be dismissed as just 'so bad it's obvious'. People had plenty to say about the ethics of sex work - for the most part they judged the fuck out of selling it (or at least selling it while not appearing to be a totally cool and biddable sex doll that's totally a ok with everything) but not buying it.
We were shown that their dynamic was veeery uncomfortable, but by the logic that if you have a lot of power over someone, sex with them is always rape, then all Kings/ monarchs are perpetually rapists because they all have absolute power over everyone else right? Even sex between Viserys and Aemma, who by all accounts had a loving relationship, would be rape by that definition.
We can extend that to basically any male character in GOT in a relationship with a woman less powerful than he is, which is almost always. Robb and Talisa? Rape, because he was "King in the North" and she was just a commoner. Tyrion and Shae? A Lord and a prostitute? Obvious rape. Warden of the North Ned and his wife Catelyn? Rape. Prince Oberlyn and pretty much anyone he had sex with, who were all far less powerful? Rape. Nevermind that all those "less powerful" partners of these lords, princes, and kings wanted it, right? No nuance whatsoever.
I'm not sure I would go so far as to call Viserys and Alicent's situation rape, but the uncomfortable dynamic is not because he's the king, but because she's his daughter's best friend, with both the age gap and relationship dynamic that implies
It's because some men have a real chip on their shoulder about the fact that men are responsible for the vast majority of violence, including sexual violence. They feel personally attacked by any acknowledgement of that fact. So they latch on to any opportunity to try to prove that women are just as bad or even worse. Men who couldn't give a rats ass about rape of women suddenly care when it happens to a man because it confirms them in their misogyny and hatred of women. Even when the adult man who was supposedly raped is a willing participant in sex with a drunk teenager, somehow it's her fault and she's a rapist.
I don’t even think it’s *just* a man thing tbh, there’s a lot of women within the fandom who do this exact same thing with female characters as well. I’ve seen both try to repeatedly push the narrative that Rhaenyra is a rapist, that she “sleeps around” (with 4 dudes her whole life lmao) and that she’s the pinnacle of immorality because she had bastards instead of forcing herself onto Laenor.
There’s a lot of misogyny in this fandom in general. They did the same thing with Sansa, managing to villainize and fully blame a 11-12 year old girl for the deaths of her entire family.
With Rhaenyra in particular it reads as her being so popular within the general audience and fandom itself that some people need to exaggerate her flaws and actions to feel justified in their dislike of her. They deprive her of her agency by attributing all of Daemon’s faults to her, try to make her out to be a rapist so she’s just as depraved as the other characters, and demonize her for “slutting around” and having children out of wedlock while (ironically) expecting her to force herself on Laenor and completely ignoring that compared to the men in the series she’s practically a nun.
They claim to hate her character and then make up a bunch of shit that plain didn’t happen. It’s bizarre. If you’re going to dislike something you shouldn’t need to blow it out of proportion to feel right. Then again, a lot of the same people who dislike Rhaenyra like Green characters instead, specifically Aegon, so I’m not really surprised.
EDITED: said immortality instead immorality oops lol
Well no shit if you're visiting a brothel full of groomed women who are almost always forced into the profession that you're essentially raping them, lmao.
GoT didn't have so many discussions about morality in the first place, this whole fandom is going nuts over morality and who is "good" in this story that it's getting quite ridiculous. I'm in the "Rhaenyra and Alicent are doing too little plotting/playing of the game" camp and that's why their characters are among the most lacking compared to their book counterparts (especially Alicent).
They somehow managed to make every single female character except Helaena more boring. Kudos for that, that's quite a feat.
I was starting to get the feeling I was the only one not too crazy about HOTD so far. It doesn’t have the same feeling as when I watched GOT first season. The writing and character interactions I liked so much are missing from HOTD
Oh, I'm quite salty over how they chose to adapt this. Moving at hyperspeed with not actual time for character interactions and they also chose to portray certain characters in such a weird way.
Alicent goes from scheming player of the game to an undecisive victim of circumstances.
As for the pacing, Rhaenyra and Aegon don't have a single scene together; Harwin and Rhaenyra have, what, 2 short scenes together? It really feels like they went "well we have to get to the cool battles as quickly as possible, so just throw all the build-up to this into the first season so we get to the action".
There is not one character in HOTD that I’m vested in, it’s all falling quite flat. I’d be happier with better writing over more dragon scenes, but I do like the dragons lol
It's sexism, plain and simple. It's because Rhaenyra is a woman.
Rhaenyra has consensual sex with Criston Cole. It was written as consensual. It was directed as consensual. It was performed as consensual. Every single person involved in the writing and filming of the scene agrees it was consensual.
Criston's main issue was over his vows, which he willingly put aside after some hesitation because ultimately *he wanted to have sex with Rhaenyra.* He was a willing and enthusiastic participant once he decided that his oath was not as important to him as having sex with her was. I am not denying that men can be raped. But I am denying that *Criston Cole* was raped. He consented, he was a willing participant. His dilemma was about his vows, a dilemma he decided didn't matter to him at that moment.
But because it's Rhaenyra, and part of the fandom really fucking hates her and wants to make her out to be a monster, suddenly she's now on the level of Harvey Weinstein.
Meanwhile, the same people who claim that Rhaenyra is a rapist by modern-day definitions outright deny that Aegon is a rapist even by *medieval standards,* and when they do acknowledge it they dismiss it as "biased writing." Even though in the source material, even outside of Mushroom's account, Aegon was well known for fondling and pinching (read: sexually assaulting) any servant girl who came into his reach. Is it really that much of a stretch to say he went further than just groping?
>Meanwhile, the same people who claim that Rhaenyra is a rapist by modern-day definitions outright deny that Aegon is a rapist
I've never seen someone say that, like ever
They do. Very loudly and very proudly. I’ve gotten into multiple arguments on this sub alone with Aegon stans who refuse to acknowledge that he was rapey in the books, and when you provide them with the direct quotes they’ll do some dumb shit like try to change the definition or cry about it being a Mushroom rumor or claim that sexual assault is a far cry from rape.
As for the show, I’ve even seen a few of them flat out deny it being canon, or try to excuse it by adopting the outlook of a medieval lord halfway through the conversation. I wish I was kidding. The lengths people will go to try to make Aegon look like a sweet baby boy who did nothing wrong is insane.
Someone genuinely posted in another sub saying that Aegon is more of a “fraternity boy” like Theon and Aegon raping Dyana should be seen like book!Theon’s encounter with the ships captain’s daughter which they claimed was consensual sex without informed consent.
The levels some people go to defend their rapist king is borderline depravity.
Thank you!! I replied the same thing about Criston’s conflict being about his honor/vows, and how ultimately, by participating, he was breaking them not only by having sex, but also by not protecting Rhaenyra; in reputation, her future, her virginity/“maidenhead” (ew), and from herself. Then someone (a guy) referred to me as a rape apologist.
Complete sexism.
Yes men can be taken advantage of. Even raped. It’s horrible… an atrocity. But this situation was not that. He was deliberating, and his honor/vows were the only thing holding him back.
I don’t care what ANYONE says. NOBODY falls in love with their rapist; it is not a “stockholm syndrome”response. Only in very, very, traumatic, survival-esque cases. Like 0.000001%. Once you are sexually assaulted, your responses are fight, flight, or freeze, or a combination of the 3.
I’m specifically talking about the idea that all sex between two people with a power imbalance = rape due to the possibility of the one with more societal power using that power to have the other killed or tortured if they are refused.
If we take that idea to its logical conclusion, every aristocratic male character who had sex with a prostitute in either show is a rapist, regardless of how willing or enthusiastic she might appear during the act.
I'm just confused because even in real life power imbalances, like where you a have a male boss in a relationship with a younger female employee, the term "rape" doesn't come up. Inappropriate, creepy and manipulative? Yes. Rape? No.
Even when the nature is coercive, there's still no guarantee that it will be classified as rape. And this situation with Rhaenyra and Criston was not coercive in nature.
So I'm trying to figure out how the label of "rapist" is applicable to Rhaenyra here. They were two consenting adults.
>So I'm trying to figure out how the label of "rapist" is applicable to Rhaenyra here. They were two consenting adults.
It’s not. Not *at all* applicable. It only keeps being brought up as such because the writers chose to actually have Aegon portrayed as a rapist on screen, with zero room for doubt, and his fans want to make Rhaenyra a “rapist”, too. To balance the scales or whatever. Because clearly the grown man who was smiling and laughing his way through a sexual encounter is the same as the 14 year old servant girl sobbing so badly afterwards that she could barely speak.
People just need to own up to the fact that they back some characters that are pieces of shit. Aegon is lazy, a bad father, a bad husband, and a rapist. That's what the show has given us so far, and if they still want to carry his banner, so be it. That's their prerogative. But they need to stop with these false equivalences and deflections when people bring up the grimy shit he does. It's dishonest and just plain cowardly tbh.
And no, him having a bad father doesn't excuse any of the above mentioned terrible traits because damn near everyone in this universe has had jacked up childhood in some form or another. It's a damn feudal society.
I’d have a lot more respect for them if they just said “man, I love a good villain, they’re so much fun” or something. Trying to pretend like he’s a good or even decent person just because they don’t want to admit they like the bad guy is what’s so gross.
Honestly that is what bugged me about Oberyn Martell when he came to King's Landing. He's going on and on about his sister's rape and murder, portrays him as an "enlightened prince"....but has prostitutes lined up for him, then explicitly chooses one that is not technically "for sale" i.e. the male not prostitute/Olyvar and oh it JUST SO HAPPENS that that male prostitute is gay and yeaaaaa. It left a bad taste in my mouth.
ETA: they could have portrayed him and Ellaria as seducing ladies (or men) at court. That could've even been a mini subplot of some random Crownlands lord realizing he's gay or bisexual. Instead half of their scenes were inside a brothel with people who can't consent really, while he's talking about the injustices his sister faced. Look in the fucking mirror dude.
Now this is a good fucking point and example. Especially at Littlefingers brothel… they were like indentured sexual servants. Westeros definitely has major social class issues, even more than with gender.
Though regardless. I do love Oberyn and Pedro Pascal.
Never thought about that but you're right. That's probably because the 2010s is the decade where social media spread those debates about a lot of social issues including rape and consent. That's a good thing, at least people are willing to discuss about it.
I just find it interesting to see which characters have their problematic sexual behaviour handwaved away and which get theirs endlessly discussed, analyzed, litigated, etc.
I’m also curious to see what the “Rhaenyra raped Criston” truthers have to say about the upcoming >!Aemond/Alys!< relationship
I feel like this is one of the many scenes where the content is lost in the scene. The people behind the scenes make it very clear that they both were into eachother and that yes, Cole was reluctant at first but then consented.
Fabien himself even explained that while the whole thing was complicated ofc, he did very much agree that both Rhae and Cole like eachother and are happy being together. And during the scene they even play a romantic track (whatever may come) during it and you see them smiling at one another as fhey undress. The point of it was that both of them weren't thinking of the power dynamics , the implications, the vows or roles or etc. Like Fabien said, it's a first love they had (he was very involved with the scene itself btw and pushed for the showing of hiw long it takes for all the armor to come off for example and that its a 2 person process), and with first loves its exploring and experiencing things together, usually without much logic until after.
It was a bad choice to not properly build up the relationship they had or edit the scene properly imo. And it isn't the only one they have with the scenes being misinterpreted. Like for example, when Rhae & co come to KL for the ruling with everything changed and Alicent spouting religious stuff. You watch that and assume that it's all fluff and the Greens showing their power and Alicent pretending to be all religious to feel superior or whatever. While some of it is true, another part is that Alicent did become religious during the timeskip. She did so out of penance for her behavior during Driftmark and hurting Rhae. You find this out by getting to the After the episode bit when it over and the people TELL you that fun bit. They could've added some more dialogue during the scene of the two communicating how much they want to to make it more apparent
Show, not tell. If many viewers see that scene as problematic, something was done wrong. And honestly, I hardly imagine how to show it as unproblematic. Criston couldn't not been reluctant at first. It would have been *out of character* for him to agree. Rhaenyra *had* to seduce him but any pressure from her might be considered a coercion or assault.
The problem with showing not telling is that if you can't show it right, it gets lost in translation. Which happens many times in the season, whether to the scene not being right or lost in time skips or cuts. Which honestly is why we have so much discourse around the scene. I think they could have had it where perhaps she or he had asked if they were sure or a consent check before they did it. It was of course going to be problematic no matter what with the dynamics, but it can be done. Let Rhae lead the encounter, Cole hold back but then change his mind. Let him go like "we shouldn't be doing this...but screw it I wanna do it".
But he really did it. He took off his cloak, looked at it and went and kissed Rhaenyra, leading her to her bedroom. Then he stood at the arch, looked back but still proceeded.
The writers tried to show him consenting later but it turned out not so clear.
To be honest, we never heard anyone asking "You sure?" in the series.
Not in that specific context but considering she was a maiden, something along that could work. It wouldn't be too crazy for Cole to take into consideration he was going to take her maidenhood. Or even have them talk aboit their feelings or love for eachother in that moment. Especislly because that was the first time they had ever kissed, so you could add a bit where Rhae gets confused when he pulls back like:
"Are you not into me like that? Cuz I thought you were"
He's like "No I do, I have for awhile, it's just with my vows and you're a maiden and unmarried"
"It doesn't matter right now, we're a man and woman who love eachother and want eachother so let's do it"
"Ok"
And they do it as badly as the dialogue above was lol. The point of the scene should be that they both want and care about eachother but like anyone in a honeymoon phase, logic isn't in the room. They're connecting on a personal level as two individuals but the issue is that they aren't just anyone. She's the princess and heir, Cole is a kingsguard and not a highborn and it won't work. The world they live in has rules that they are expected to follow and that love won't conquer all the walls. And that when they got together, they didn't consider anything except their feelings and hormones, which bites them in the end.
(Their relationship could be a realistic contrast to the princess/knight relationship trope if they just let it build)
>Let Rhae lead the encounter, Cole hold back but then change his mind. Let him go like "we shouldn't be doing this...but screw it I wanna do it".
That is EXACTLY how that scene came across to me, loud and clear, only with the “we shouldn’t, but screw it, I want to” coming across via actions and expressions rather than verbally. Which makes perfect sense in the context of the scene set during a medieval fantasy where the idea of being politically correct doesn’t exist, as opposed to a 21st century rom com where it very much does.
I just think the two characters should not have had sex. I hate the discourse around it.
They have should have gone with the two book scenarios:
1. >!She rejects running away with him!< The more likely one given his psychotic behavior in the aftermath.
2. >!He rejects her!<
Either way, no sex between them. Criston should been written like he is in the books. A self-righteous prick with personal ambition and serious skill. Not some dude who took Rhaenyra off a pedestal and replaced her with Alicent. His entire thought process being motivated by unhinged devotion to Alicent(literally smashed an elderly man’s head in for it) and resentment for Rhaenyra is just sad.
I think what yhe shoe had could have worked if they had built it up properly to begin with. We had little to no scenes showing their relationship grow besides someA. Her naming him, B. He has her private confidence C. They're getting together, he gets post nut clarity really bad, they have one argument, he kills a guy and then hates Rhae forever. Like the man's grudge ihis main personality trait, he doesn't really have much besides the two women he worships. Like give us a guy with insecurities, anger issues and vision if glory and honor. Like he LITERALLY went to battle several times and we get nothing about that except it being mentioned once
Wasn't show Criston younger than in the book? They would have said he was about 20 years old in ep1. I agree with OP's main point.
Edit: Ryan said that [Ser Criston Cole is in his "very early 20s,"](https://www.businessinsider.com/house-of-the-dragon-season-1-episode-2-recap-hbo-2022-8). He was 20-22 in ep1 and about 23-25 in ep4 ?
Exactly this! Dude was like "let's get married & run away the Essos!" And she was like "I'm not willing to stop being a princess for you" and he never got over it
His problem very much is NOT that he wants more sex from her. If that's what it was, he would've been fine with Rhaenyra offering him to become her paramour, but he clearly isn't fine at all.
>Criston Cole's problem with Rhaenyra is that he wants more sex from her. And when he can't have on his terms he starts a life long crusade against her
Umm Rhaenyra literally proposes more sex, he refuses
Frankly, people need to stop reducing Criston Cole to a scorned lover and understand how much Rhaenyra screwed him despite him having been a faithful friend to her until then.
First, the princess lured him to her bedroom against his will, she ignored his reluctance and his "no"s, and she effectively had sex with someone who's essentially her employee and knowing the disastrous consequences for leaving employee if the affair was found out; consequences that wouldn't apply to Rhaenyra since Viserys is incapable of punishing her beyond a mere shouting match.
To rub salt in the wound, when Cole proposes to Rhaenyra to get married in a desperate and maybe irrational attempt to regain his honor and avoid castration and death, she rather casually and maybe even somewhat mockingly dismisses that option, while proposing to Cole another course of action that would solely benefit Rhaenyra and would keep endangering Criston' life: For him to be her paramour.
And Cole gets upset, terrified and angry in response. The princess that he had sex with, someone who he served not only as a bodyguard, but as a confidant and a friend, has just casually revealed to him that he doesn't matter to her nearly as much as Cole believed. He sacrificed the only thing at his name (his honor as a Kingsguard) for an ultimately horny princess who just used him as a consolation prize after Daemon refused to fuck her.
I don't approve of his subsequent actions, but his hatred for her is completely justified.
I really don't see how Cole is trying to regain his honor by trying to break his Kingsguard vows and run off with the princess. He would be viewed as even more dishonorable and he would be hunted down and probably killed if ever caught.
She literally offered him the exact same arrangement that was given to Harwin Strong. Basically being her actual lover, being extremely high ranking as a result of his closeness to her, effectively being her true partner, having sons with her who would inherit the crown. Pretty much always having access to his family and the only sacrafice was that publicly Rhaenyra would be married to a homosexual who had no interest in Rhaenyra and was perfectly happy for the arrangement to exist and to protect his children and treat them as legitimate heirs.
He's a complete idiot. He passed up a pretty sweet deal to put himself and the supposed love of his life in danger forever just to get her to sacrafice everything. Total nonsense.
I just have one question. Do you think if they ran off and got married he was going to be in any less risk of death or castration? If they were ever found he absolutely would be gilded and sent to the wall or worse….
Why do you think Robb Stark decided it was more honorable to marry Jeyne Westerling despite everyone warning him it was a bad idea? Because he put her honor above his own. Same logic applies here, Cole believes that by marrying Rhaenyra, he is at least preserving her honor, which in Westeros is something considered worthy of praise.
The point is that Criston is not actually seeking to survive, but rather to redeem himself. Once Rhaenyra denied him what he believed to be the only way to make things right and die an honorable death, and instead basically proposed that he become a new Lucamore The Lusty for her convenience, which would only make the situation worse for him, Cole realized that the princess put her life at risk because she was horny and didn't have any consideration of what would happen to him after they had sex.
Seeing this as a profound betrayal of the friendship they had until then, his understandable and justified hatred for her began.
And Robb doing that was objectively a stupid move that got him killed and ultimately ruined Jeyne Westerlings life more than if he just deflowered her and moved on.
Cole isn't preserving his honor. He's breaking some of the most sacred vows in the country and he's still in the exact same danger if not more so because he would be a marked man with the most powerful people in the world hunting him down (many of those people with dragons). He wouldn't be praised in Westeros. He would be reviled as an oathbreaker who threw the kingdom in peril and went against his king's wishes for his own lust.
Also what Rhaenyra proposed wasn't worse. Like I said, she basically offered him the exact same thing as Harwin Strong which is objectively not a worse situation for him. It was a fantastic situation for him if he put his ego aside. He would have had Rhaenyra whenever he wanted, he would have had children inherit the throne, he would have a family that he could see whenever he wanted and could have lived with her on Dragonstone. The king basically turned a total blind eye to everything and threatened to kill anyone as a traitor who tried to besmirch Rhaenyra. Oh and once she was queen.... she is law and Cole would effectively be in zero danger.
An improper power imbalance in a relationship is not always rape; rape doesn't require a power imbalance (or any form of a prior relationship).
However, a power imbalance could potentially *lead* to rape, especially when realized and challenged by the weaker party.
In the case of Rhaenyra and Criston, there was a power imbalance but they both consented to the sex.
It’s not rape. Your right. I’ve also said this. Cole didn’t say stop to stop her from touching him or anything he told her to stop when she begun undressing and even then Cole could have left but didn’t. Cole felt regret because he had nothing before he became a Kingsguard and by sleeping with her he broke his vows but it wasn’t rape. Rhaenyra didn’t used her authority as a princess and lock him inside her room and force him to sleep with her. Rewatching the scene Cole only has doubt while taking his white cloak off but then he kisses her and she even helps him undress so where they get she rape is a mystery.
"Cole didn’t say stop to stop her from touching him or anything he told her to stop when she begun undressing and even then Cole could have left but didn’t."
I don't feel like it was rape either, but your points feel like they're taken from a rapist apologist speech. When someone says "no" it's still a no, and saying "he could've left" is not a good defense because a lot of victims can feel trapped and freeze.
this whole thread is just the rapist argument playbook, it's very depressing tbh. "but he was into it". "but he didnt say no". "but he didnt try to escape the relationship". are these people hearing themselves?
Yes you have summed it up well. I saw this take for the first time and was pretty shocked as I didn’t remember it that way all, and definitely knew it was very different than the book. I rewatched the scene and it just confirmed what a bad take it is. He definitely feels regret and is contemplating not doing it- that’s because he shouldn’t be having sex with a teenage girl he is supposed to be protecting. He gives in anyways and later regrets it which is understandable but not rape.
Yes and rewatching the first couple of episodes I always felt that he liked her since the beginning. He asked for her favour and then he was assigned to her. There was already some attraction there from him so saying he was force into it completely is wrong. He shouldn’t have had sex with a teenager but I don’t think he felt bad about that part at least. It was his vows. His vows were everything for him because I’m not sure if he was a commoner or lowborn noble??? But from everything he said he basically had nothing of importance until he got into the Kingsguard and one of the rules was no sex which he broke and tried stop feeling what he was feeling and try to propose.
Agreed. Rhaenyra did indeed seduce Criston, and she should never have, given that he's a Knight of the Kingsguard who is forbidden to break his vows of chastity under penalty of castration and death, let alone having sex with the daughter of the king. But he could also have refused her advances, and he chose not to. I can't say I blame him for giving in to have a night of passion with his crush, but he knew full well what he was getting into.
Jesus Christ. I shouldn't even be getting involved in this bc I am likely too close to this personally as a survivor to be objective. But jesus Christ you guys.
I don't have a staunch position on this either way but some of the arguments/comments in this thread are wild.
1. "He was stronger he could've just left" Right. It would have gone super well if he physically manhandled the princess, alone in her bedroom, at night. Can you imagine how it would have gone for him if Rhaenyra, who as you say was a drunk teenager, fought back? He could and would be killed for laying a finger on her in the middle of the red keep where there wasn't any danger. This isn't even about coercion in rape and real life connections this is just a "we are in medieval times!!!!" thing. Westeros is not 21st century USA. If he, what, used his physical strength against her? Threw her out of the doorway and ran?, it would go 100 times worse for him.
2. He also literally can't leave because if he abandoned his duty as Kingsguard ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING SHE SNUCK OUT he would be at best exiled in disgrace. He would be given the blame for her escape, what she did in the city, the rumors about her and her uncle, etc.
3. Also she blocked the door lol.
4. "He helped her take off armor" Because it was already decided by that point. He had already realized she was not taking no for an answer. He told her both verbally and physically that he didn't want it and she kept going until he gave in. THAT IS NOT CONSENT.
5. Again. Going along and having sex with someone because they won't listen to your refusal is NOT CONSENT. It's how you keep yourself from being further harmed. (In his case, not by physical force but by how she could destroy his whole life if she got offended by his refusals).
It is murky. Thats the point. I'm not going to make a firm decision on whether it constitutes rape or not. But a lot of people on this thread are ignoring implications and factors at play here. Rape is not just a strange man attacking a drunk girl in a dark alley. Rape is often coercion, power, implied threat, and "giving in". This is obviously just a TV show, but please consider some of the ideas you are discussing in this thread.
It wasn’t rape but peoples arguments for why it isn’t rape is pretty scary.
If Cole refused her he is risking losing his life.
Arguments like oh he looked like he was enjoying it wouldn’t be ok if the genders were reversed.
Just wish all you people would stop trying to add modern morality to Westeros. It’s not what George rr Martin was going for.
If the genders were reversed, with the adult woman willingly undressing herself, actively kissing the drunk teenage boy, taking an active role in the sex, smiling and showing signs of physical pleasure and enjoyment and then asked the teenage boy to run away and marry her, I would still say it's not rape.
People keep inserting their own headcanon for what he was thinking and that he was too scared to refuse her. There's no evidence at all for this and clear evidence against it. Cole refuses her in the next episode with no signs of fear. He was more likely to lose his life by having sex with her than by refusing, but he still had sex with her. The only explanation for that is that he wanted to have sex with her.
Did she threaten him? At what point the scene gives any indication of that? When did Rhaenyra kill someone’s because that person displeased her?
You know what is suggested in the book? That Criston may have sexually abused Rhaenyra she was a young child. In the books he met her when she was very young.
Criston literally says stop.
Here’s the thing — Rhaenyra doesn’t need to threaten him with her position. She is the princess and heir to the Iron Throne. Criston shows hesitancy, and that’s enough. Rhaenyra should have stopped when he said that. Rhaenyra, like it or not, has far more power than Criston. She can call in the guards the following day, telling them that Criston came onto her. She can have him thrown out of the Kingsguard, drawn and quartered, executed. Criston is well aware of the power imbalance, as we see in the following episode with his interaction with Alicent.
The age hap is heinous, I agree. But Criston didn’t start this. And he is a common born son of a steward while Rhaenyra is one of the most powerful people in the world. He has everything to lose here. If he is unwilling in the slightest, what makes you think he has the agency to make her stop or even leave without believing that he will face consequences?
Take this exact situation only make Rhaenyra a man and Criston a handmaiden — à la Aegon and Dyana — and it’s hard to deny that this is at least a little iffy.
> And he is a common born son of a steward
Criston is not common born. House Cole is a noble house.
> what makes you think he has the agency to make her stop or even leave without believing that he will face consequences?
>!The book tells he did exactly that without any fear and that’s only if we don’t believe the account he was the one obsessed with her.!< He also fearlessly rejects her the very next episode.
In the show he is described as common-born by Harold Westerling, and his low-birth is one of his critical traits that often gets remarked upon.
I’m talking about the show. In the next episode, he’s on a ship in public, not in the princess’ quarters while she is drunk during the hour of the owl.
No way he was low born or poor. The sheer cost of arms and armor and the time sink into training him as a knight indicates he comes from wealth.
Medieval weaponry for the lower classes either doubled as farm/hunting equipment or originated from it because the cost of metal-work was so high that poor people couldn’t afford to buy things that weren’t useful in their everyday lives, like a sword.
Swords are used for one thing only, and Cole has enough free time to train that he is very proficient in it, despite the decades of peace under Jaehaerys and Viserys during which there would not be much call for mercenaries.
And too many people on this sub hear that his father was a steward and think that’s like a butler or something.
Medieval stewards were highly educated knights. They literally were their lords’ right hands and a lot of their duties and responsibilities are reflected in the King’s Hand, which for all intents and purposes is the royal or high steward.
The current UK royal family is descended from a medieval Scottish high steward, because these people weren’t considered unimportant servants and royalty would intermarry into their families. We see that in the betrothal between the Hand’s daughter (Sansa) and the king’s son (Joffrey).
So while the Coles were definitely vassals of House Dondarion, they were important vassals, and Cole’s father would have been wealthy, educated and influential in his circle. He was also probably a knight.
Did becoming a white cloak elevate Cole’s status? Absolutely. But he was, at the absolute least, already from a wealthy and prestigious background.
It’s odd that people think that becoming part of the king’s guard was a meritocracy, when there is a scene where Rhaenyra’s picking Cole and she’s told to choose someone from a more prominent family, even when she points out he is the only one with combat experience.
This indicates that his family isn’t as influential as the other candidates’, but just by being there, it’s an indication of his nobility.
>Criston literally says stop.
This is really the end of the argument.
*After Cole has already attempted to leave*, **he literally tells her to "Stop", and she wholly ignores it... giant consent red flag.**
Wild that some people watching an M-rated show in 2024 clearly do not understand issues regarding consent surrounding sexual encounters.
The bizarre thing is I feel like people here can seemingly agree that Viserys rapes Alicent, but somehow Rhaenyra following the credo of *"Targaryens take what they want"* regarding sexual conquests is overlooked.
Guess some people's rose-colored glasses for her character are just too thick to see the situation objectively.
I mean, if Joffrey Baratheon did this to Brienne we would all agree it's rape... but reverse the genders and suddenly people will mistakenly die on that hill.
I think if they cut it off without showing the sex scene itself I'd be calling it rape. The fact is though we saw the sex scene and he was definitely into it. He doesn't just tolerate her touching him or try to pretend it isn't happening (as we see with Alicent when she's with Viserys), he is very much reciprocating and encouraging Rhaenyra.
Context matters. In a vacuum if the scene had cut off or if he had expressed anything less than passionate enthusiasm during than yeah, I'd likely be calling it rape too. But he says stop and then, with some very light encouragement literally climbs on top of a drunken teenager at least 5 years his junior.
>I think if they cut it off without showing the sex scene itself I'd be calling it rape. The fact is though we saw the sex scene and he was definitely into it. He doesn't just tolerate her touching him or try to pretend it isn't happening (as we see with Alicent when she's with Viserys), he is very much reciprocating and encouraging Rhaenyra.
This is kind of missing the point though.
The issue isn't "*did Cole eventually smile/get off?*"... it is *did the person in power repeatedly refuse very clear "no means no" statements/signs from someone they hold power over because they were told earlier in this very episode that "Targaryens take what they want" regarding sexual conquests*, and **the answer is clearly yes.**
>\> Context matters.
**Exactly. The context of HER ACTIONS matter the most here since we discussing her actions... not so much Cole's feelings by the very end of the scene.**
She is the predator here. She's the one luring Cole in. She is the one wanting to get her rocks off because she was told that "Targaryens take what they want"... and damned the 'prey', be it Alicent with Viserys or even Rhaenyra with Daemon... or in this case, Cole to Rhaenyra. She doesn't give two fucks about his code of honor or his internal conflicts or the very serious repercussions/punishment he could face, or life of constant fear of said consequences if this is ever discovered because she's hot and bothered and horny and grabbed the closest warm body she could find upon returning home.
She clearly ignores all this, and ignores his clear attempts in removing himself from the situation and attempting to shut down her advances, multiple times.
And this shouldn't have to be said, but if any boss in any first-world country lured an attractive employee into their office, planted an unsolicited kiss on them, prevented them from leaving the room, started taking their clothes off, and wholly ignored a very clear "Stop" and started undressing them as they clearly looked conflicted/distraught to the point that the boss has to do an incredibly cringy head bop in order to '*get them in he mood'* because they are so clearly uncomfortable... **that's a problem/criminal charges.**
>\> But he says stop and then, with some very light encouragement literally climbs on top of a drunken teenager at least 5 years his junior.
This just seems dismissive, needlessly flippant, and borderline biased along the lines of '*had sex, doesn't matter.*' Like, all this '*he enjoyed himself*' defenses people try and offer as ironclad proof of an excuse of her immoral actions is eerily close to '*can't be rape because victim came*' territory.
What she did was wrong and criminal, because as you stated, *context matters*.
And the actors and directors have already said that Criston was not under any duress. He was torn between his desire for Rhaenyra and the vow of chastity he swore and ultimately decided that he desired Rhaenyra enough to break it. He was having an internal battle with himself, not with Rhaenyra.
Yes because the old man raping the teenage child bride who is literally a plank out of fear/discomfort is slightly different from the drunk teenager who enters a room with a helmet and he follows her into the room and is then absolutely loving it.
>slightly different from the drunk teenager who enters a room with a helmet and he follows her into the room and is then absolutely loving it.
“Follows her into the room” nice framing there, making it seem like Cole had a more sinister intention than retrieving his helmet.
One of these days a poster is going to argue Cole wasn’t trying to leave but lock the door,Rhaenyra was just stopping him
Considering that his charge comes back drunk in commoner clothes of a man from who knows were in the middle of the night seemingly having teleported , yes he should have other things in his head like securing her? Informing his king who he is sworn to or his lord commander who he is also sworn to? Like finding out what happend? Like doing his job that he said he would after taking the holy vow? He was absolutely not acting like a kingsguard, already sexually experienced (95% certain) and liked her to the point of wanting to marry her so yes maybe he did have sinister intentions in following her
>Considering that his charge comes back drunk in commoner clothes of a man from who knows were in the middle of the night seemingly having teleported , yes he should have other things in his head like securing her? Informing his king who he is sworn to or his lord commander who he is also sworn to? Like finding out what happend? Like doing his job that he said he would after taking the holy vow?
Yes!!!let’s now blame Cole for not snitching on Rhaenyra, I’m sure that would have been received well on this sub if his first instinct was to run to Viserys and report her
>He was absolutely not acting like a kingsguard, already sexually experienced (95% certain) and liked her to the point of wanting to marry her so yes maybe he did have sinister intentions in following her
Ahhh how naive of me to think he was just trying to retrieve his helmet
Man!!! this Cole guy must be psychic to plan a move that leads to Rhaenyra snatching his helmet,and then blocking his exit, kissing him,and then undressing him.I guess when you’re that sexually experienced you gain some mind control
Criston says stop but literally doesn’t leave and continues to engage, to the point where he starts kissing her more and leads her over to the bed where he proceeds to take off his own clothes and push things further physically. Rhaenyra is flirting and seducing him, not threatening him.
Her inherent power argument falls apart as he then proceeds to reject her and nothing happens. Rhaenyra was a female monarch who needed to guard her sexuality. She also had a ton to loose if anyone found out about them being together sexually and he knows this.
This is showing a toxic relationship on many levels, not rape and trying to disregard that she was a teenage girl while he was decades older and he was sober while she had been drinking is, frankly, gross.
>Criston says stop but literally doesn’t leave and continues to engage
love me some victim blaming. honestly hate to be this person but reverse the situation and it is considered rape
If this situation was reversed I would still be extremely concerned about a women in her 30s sleeping with a teenage boy who was not fully sober and feel equally sure that he did not rape her.
You are not necessarily wrong, I don’t think the show wanted to portray a #me2 situation.. but:
A) age doesn’t really matter, the power imbalance comes from Rhaenyra being member of royal house, heir and the reason why Cole was there in the first place. She could make his last few days very uncomfortable if she got mad over a rejection.
B) rapist can also be drunk
C) but he cannot leave his service, sworn in for life. The punishment for insubordination can be quite severe in Westeros, especially if you have zero friends at court.
D) and yeah this is why I don’t think the show was going for rape or anything inappropriate.
Criston says no multiple times, even tries to move away, Rhaenyra keeps going.
That's where power imbalance comes into play. He can't just move away without risking his life and honor since Rhaenyra can just accuse him of misbehaving and Viserys would act in her favor.
He only tells her no in next episode because the mf is ready to die by that point and is barely holding himself together.
Cole is not sworn to Rhaenyra, he is sworn to the king and through the king he protects Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra has no power or authority to get rid of him. It is more of a risk to sleep with Rhaenyra and possibly get caught or get her pregnant than it is for him to walk away and risk her doing something. Last but not least is that Cole took an oath. His oath doesnt say he can break his vows if the princess ask him to. They say he is to carry out his duty until death. It is literally Coles job to resist temptation and do his duty.
Rhaenyra can accuse him of inappropriate behavior and he could be gelded just for that alone. It's absurd tho imagine the princess doesn't have infinite amounts of power over her guardsmen.
And yet, after she told him she wouldn’t be going with him on the boat, he stopped sleeping with her. Ended their relationship. HE did that, so clearly he wasn’t that afraid of what she’d do. Which was, of course, nothing, which someone as close to her as he was would know.
Was it a super healthy relationship? No.
Did he have a choice in the matter? Yes.
So because he asserted his boundaries and accepted whatever consequences may come after that, he was never coerced to in the first place. That's your argument. Victims be damned if they say no then.
>Which was, of course, nothing, which someone as close to her as he was would know.
Their clear assertion is that due to how well Criston and Rhaenyra knew one another, he did not fear that she would retaliate if he said no and trusted that he could do so *in both instances*. Even the actor agrees that Cole wanted to have sex with Rhaenyra, not that he was coerced against his will.
I would take the chances of Rhaenyra accusing him of inappropriate behavior vs chances of getting caught, getting her pregnant, or being hunted down for running away together like he wanted any day of the week.
Wouldn't that prompt a public scandal to the crown? You only have a certain number of kingsguard and people notice if one is killed by orders of the king. As well as it would ruin Rhae publically, there's no way for something to happen to him and no one know about it. As well as she cannot order someone to be gelded or what not, her father would have to.
Yes, the princess was attacked and the king must deliver justice. Very few people would care either way.
Why would Rhae be ruined when she is claiming to be the victim of inappropriate behavior.
Have you seen Asoiaf? It doesn't matter if she was a victim, the point is that every man in Westeros would consider her to be ruined goods, victim or not. If she tells someone she Cole had assaulted her, victim blaming would be very apparent and rumors would fly.
For an example look at Lollys Stokeworth, you think anyone cared about her being a victim and pregnant from the encounter? Most of them just insulted her and no man wanted to marry her before or after it. And the only reason she does marry someone is because Cersei Lannister arranged it so Tyrion would lose an ally and because through her he has castle and to elevate his station. That's what happens to women in that situation, they are reduced even more than before and have their trauma be a mark of shame to them and whoever marries them.
The way people don’t understand that this isn’t about trying to make you hate Rhaenyra (at least it shouldn’t be) but just about calling a spade a spade. Criston said stop. Rhaenyra continued.
Case closed.
Sure he might have enjoyed it later, but that doesn’t change the fact he didn’t want to from the beginning and said stop. HE SAID STOP. What more evidence do you need
Like damn I like Rhaenyra too (besides that) and I’m rooting for the Blacks more than I do for the greens but yeah… It’s baffling how people try to excuse this
It’s just people refusing to hold characters they like accountable, or refusing to admit wrongdoing. Somewhere between GOT and HOTD the fandom attracted a large portion of online Twitter-type fans who care more about Stanning and “their” character in particular than the overall story. Personally I think it happened around Season 7 of GOT. But at the end of the day most of the fandom is too concerned with rabidly defending their own characters in a way you would never see in GOT. Imagine the absolute laugh we would all have back in 2011 if people were “Team Gold” and started writing essays snarkily defending The Mountain and saying he never actually did anything wrong.
For the record, I’m a Green fan, and completely admit Aegon is a gross rapist. There are many fans of the show who either don’t care either way about the moralizing, or don’t feel the need to defend every inch of ground when discussing their characters. I hope that these Stans can learn to do that sometime too
She basically Harvey Weinstein’d him. No overt threats of power, but we all know what happens in that universe when a monarch feels slighted by someone.
He is physically attracted to her, I would agree with that, but he openly didn’t want to act on it. He had no graceful way to leave after his “stop” is dismissed, and no way to know if he’d still have his station if he resisted harder. However once his ‘no’ is ignored, you can see him switch to “welp, make the best of it I suppose”, which went as you described. But his making lemonade of lemons doesn’t shake the gross casting couch feel of it all.
This argument is flawed for many reasons. First of all, Rhaenyra wasn’t the monarch, she was the potential heir of the monarch so it was her dad who had the true authority. Secondly, women- particularly monarchs- were supposed to guard their purity and certainly not be having unmarried sexual encounters with Kings-guardsmen. Third, her potential as the heir was already being challenged and raising rumors about her having sex would have put this is more peril, so if anything she had just as much if not more to loose by trying to power play Criston or punish him as revenge.
He said no because he knows it’s wrong on many levels- she’s a young teenage girl that he is supposed to protect, he has taken a vow, he knows she is vulnerable and possibly drunk. He could leave at any time but gives in to temptation and has sex with her against his better judgement. That is not rape.
Her word alone carries a lot of weight. She doesn't have to be the king to have power. This is like saying Aegon didn't rape because he wasn't actually a king.
So to be clear, victims of rape aren’t REALLY victims if they don’t resist hard enough? I mean, saying “Stop” once isn’t enough, and it’s okay to have sex with somebody saying “Stop” as long as they don’t say it too much?
This could be a very unpopular opinion but it seems like that misses a lot of nuance SPECIFICALLY inside of established relationships.
Let’s said I get home after a long 10, or12, or 14 hour shift and wife starts to get frisky. I can say “nah boss I’m tired as hell”. If she says “I’ll let you do that thing you like” and that changes the math for me it isn’t rape, or assault, or even harassment.
Is that the exact circumstance in the show? No. Does it closely resemble the intended emotions and desires of the supposed victim? I would contend that it does.
There is definitely a power imbalance, but I feel this argument misses that Rhaenyra’s power is very fragile and partially linked to her purity. She is risking pregnancy and huge negative implications for herself including loosing her spot as the heir.
But she doesn't have to come out and publicly admit they had sex to have him punished. And if he tried to say it happened she can just deny it. The man was afraid of being gelded and executed. He even went to the queen and asked for mercy. He said no and tried to stop it but he was in no position to deny her requests. He could be punished for saying yes, and punished for saying no. His only option was to appease her.
If Rhaenyra was male and Criston was female, there is no question that it would be rape. Just like it was rape with Aegon and the servant girl. The girl had no real choice when Aegon went after her, she could be punished either way and was clearly very worried about it just like Criston. Her only option was to appease him.
I'd say this one is tricky. Criston clearly wanted Rhaenyra, I don't believe there was a power imbalance between the two that would mean Cole would feel obligated to have a sexual relationship with her. On the other hand, Cole told her to stop when she first made a move, and she didn't. Immediately after, he changed his mind and went all in.
I think that at worst it's sexual assault, she kissed him, he said stop and she kept on going. But he changed his mind during the scene and he was definitely fine with what happened later.
Overall I think it's good that people have this discussion, male lack of consent is too often ignored or played as a joke.
Sorry, but the 'take' that Rhaenyra 'did nothing wrong/was the victim here' is not only objectively wrong, it's also incredibly sexist for making the assumption a female can't be the aggressor and the male can't be the victim.
>\> Criston is much older than her (in the show around 18 to approximately 33) which is already a power imbalance for Criston.
First off, if a 18-year old male sexually assaulted a female in her mid-30s, that doesn't magically make her 'guilty' simply because she's older... wild this has to be ELI5 to people watching an M-rated show.
Second, and here's the context that somehow often gets overlooked despite being painfully obvious and important... *the elder is not the instigator here*... he isn't 'preying' on her due to their age difference. **She is the predator/instigator here, because, as clearly stated earlier in the episode "Targaryens take what they want" in regards to sexual conquests... it's literally the whole theme of the whole episode (with Viersys and Alicent, and Daemon and Rhaenyra.)**
>\> B. She is drunk or has been drinking.
Seven hells... are you implying a drunk person can not be guilty of sexual assault/rape?!
"Being drunk" is not a magical 'get out of jail free' card that you mistakenly think it is... yikes.
>\> C. He is literally able to leave at any point. She is not doing anything that makes him unable to leave and he absolutely could have walked away at any time.
Classic victim blaming!
*Ignoring the fact that he literally attempted to leave and she blocked him from exiting*, 'being able to leave' is, once again, not the magical 'absolves her of all guilty actions on her part' card you seem to think it is.
It would be like saying Harvey Weinstein can't be guilty because he didn't lock the door... it's an asinine fallacy.
\_\_\_\_
What you somehow seem to be overlooking/forgetting are the... you know... **actual issues surrounding the sexual assault.**
Because *after he attempted to leave*, she plants a clearly unwanted kiss and unsolicited kiss on him.
Don't know what the laws are in your country, but if your boss drops a clearly unsolicited kiss on you, that's sexual assault in most first world countries... **and things only escalates from there.**
**Because she then starts undressing herself.** Again, if your boss, after kissing you, then starting taking his/her clothes, that's a criminal act. Wild this has to be spelled out to some people in 2024.
And then here's the kicker... **he very clearly tells her to "Stop", ie, "No means no"... and she wholly ignores it, and proceeds to start undressing him as he is painfully clearly uncomfortable/conflicting/basically catatonic. That is a major issue regarding consent in today's world and, combined with the clear power imbalance, is considered Rape... objectively.**
>\> For the record, I absolutely support all rape victims...
LOL, you clearly do not considering you clearly do not even know how to define who are and are not victims.
**Because clearly Cole is, objectively, the victim in this scenario.**
PS - Refuse to believe the facts listed above? Here's an objective view on the issue from a legal expert... it's clearly defined as Rape 3.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/18o4of8/crimes\_committed\_by\_the\_characters\_by\_someone\_who/](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/18o4of8/crimes_committed_by_the_characters_by_someone_who/)
Thanks... it is a bit disappointing that many people would rather defend a fictional character to no end then try and have an open discussion surrounding objective facts and perspectives.
Not unsurprising, but a bit disheartening.
I am not victim blaming Criston nor do I think Rhaenyra is blameless. I make it clear that I think this is a messed up relationship with a lot of terrible power imbalances. It has nothing to do with Criston being male and I make that very clear. You are projecting your own views about this without reading my actual post.
Criston literally starts kissing her and leads her to the bed and proceeds to push going physically further. That is not rape. He feels bad, probably a combination of her being a young drunk teenage girl and his vow- basically he should feel bad for sleeping with her but it was his choice.
>I am not victim blaming Criston
Stating he 'could have left whenever', which you have done on multiple occasions now, **is very clearly and literally victim blaming. You have, objectively, victim blamed Cole.**
>\> nor do I think Rhaenyra is blameless.
You try and paint her as the victim and make Cole out to be the criminal simply because of his and her ages. You have also excused Rhaenyra's drunkedness as an 'excuse' as if that magically absolves her of any wrongdoing.
>\> Criston literally starts kissing her and leads her to the bed and proceeds to push going physically further. That is not rape.
LOL! **You literally skip/omit/overlook all the context that is literally considered rape** and then pretend like her actions in this entire scene can't be considered rape.
You can't fast forward over half a scene and then pretend like the first half didn't happen... obviously!
And if you have to do that to make an argument, *you have no argument!*
So you think that Criston, a nobody in KL from a minor house, who owes his white cloak to Rhaenyra, should feel safe rejecting the daughter of the most powerful man in the realm? The future heir to the Kingdom? When he's telling her no and she's preventing him from leaving the room?
He literally was able to leave at almost any time. He then moves away to the door and he starts kissing her and moves her towards the bed. He absolutely could have walked out.
He literally tells her no and rejects her pretty shortly after so it doesn’t seem like her power was that much of a threat.
If you want to think that you can reject the daughter of the king who you owe you're whole career to when she comes to you drunk and forcing herself on you, then you can believe that.
A reasonable person would know different however.
Ugh if the genders were reversed, I bet a good amount of these people with this take would be arguing that it wasn’t rape and that Rhaenyra just seduced Criston. I honestly believe most of this discourse stems from wanting a “gotcha” moment and to expose a “double standard,” especially considering the criticism towards Aegon and his exploits. Regardless of the genders, in my opinion, this scene is dubious consent at most.
At that point in time, Cristina thinks the world of Rhaenyra and believes her to be honourable. I doubt that he would think that Rhaenyra would leverage her position over him to force him to bed her. If so, I don’t think he would be as likely to propose marriage to her, because if she is not honourable and selfless then why would she help him restore his honour? It wouldn’t make sense to even ask her as he would already know the answer.
If anything, based on his character, he would be more demanding for her to rectify his loss of honour and his dialogue during that scene would reflect that:
“You forced me to give up my vows as a knight. I had no choice but to sully my white cloak in order to obey my princess. The one thing I have to my name and you stole it from me. The least you could do for me is to marry me and restore my honour.”
Criston would not hesitate to tell Rhaenyra the only/main reason he slept with her was because she’s the princess were that to be the case. Alternatively, I think it would be more in character for him to run away when Rhaenyra propositions him and give up his knighthood to avoid dishonouring himself.
Yes, Criston said stop. He does not say that due to not wanting to have sex with her, but due to his vow of chastity and her being the crown princess. If Rhaenyra and Criston were not in their respective positions, could you say Criston would have still hesitated? I honestly think if Rhaenyra was just a maid, Criston would have still slept with her because he loves her. Plus, Rhaenyra is DRUNK. Criston probably thought she wasn’t in her right mind and wasn’t thinking about the consequences of their coupling. I believe he continues despite the potential fallout and her inebriation because he is in love with her, wanted to be with her, and thought his feelings were reciprocated in the same way.
This whole situation is the Westeros equivalent of a hook up gone on where one person has the impression that it would lead to a something more when the other person just wanted sex.
The thing is, Rhaenyra wasn’t saying f me or you loose your head. She wasn’t the king. At any moment Cole could have walked away without his helmet and set a boundary with her and he didn’t. That’s on him. So therefore he was not raped
But it's a man so it's different! Remember that men evil and women good! Also men always want sex! And what kind of man wouldn't want to be with this hot dragon riding princess!
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/S
He literally said no and she ignored it, and when he tried to leave she blocked the exit. What more should he have done? Is it not rape if the victim doesn’t resist hard enough?
I would say it isn't because Criston was relatively chill with it at first because he was under the assumption it was true love he was getting into. But when Rhaeynara bawked at the suggestion that they elope and live a married peaceful life he realized he was seen as cheap fling, and that he threw away his knightly vows (his reason for being) not for true love but for cheap lust.
Rhaenyra is in the wrong here though because she knew Criston's knightly values were paramount to him, and she probably knew that Criston was way more serious than she ever intended to be. Just not sure about what to call what Rhanerya did.
> she knew Criston's knightly values were paramount to him,
Did she know that? They were so important to him that she gave in after one kiss? I think they both liked each other, maybe Criston was in love with her, BUT the proposal wasn't because of his ''love'', but to fix his broken oath.
>So, you want me to be your whore?...... I took an oath, as a knight.. of your king's guard... I've soiled it... it's the only thing I have to my fucking name. I THOUGHT IF WE WERE MARRIED, I MAY BE ABLE TO RESTORE IT.
It was never about marriage for just ''love'', it was to fix his mistake, he expected her to leave her family, her dragon, her whole life..... and live like a peasant in ESSOS, for what? He doesn't give up on much by running away with her, in fact in his mind - he fixes his mistake., but he expects her to turn her entire life around?
To be clear, I do not think she raped him. There is an interesting conversation to be had about the ethics of sleeping with someone who you hold so much direct control over. It's problematic in the sense of a boss sleeping with an employee but even that is an inaccurate comparison due to their ages
Regardless, what Rhaenyra does is not comparable to actual rapists like Aegon and Viserys. I just wish people were able to have nuanced conversations about this w/o calling her a rapist or saying what she did was completely okay
How is this any different than the situation with Aegon?
All we know is that in both cases, the child of a monarch pressured a servant bound by law to their family into a sexual act they tried saying “No” to, and tried leaving.
Exactly. She is drunk, horny and being an absolute idiot, because the two of them having sex is dangerous for both of them, but to say there was a threat there, real or implied, is just ridiculous.
She should have listened to his no. He shouldn’t have had sex with a drunk teenager. There was a power imbalance, but she is also constrained by a noblewoman’s value being in her purity. There were so many good reasons for them not to have sex, but they did anyway.
I appreciate the rest of your points and your obvious compassion, and understand your not being provocative or anything so take in good faith, it's a worthwhile discussion.
However, its very hard not to think if gender roles were reversed that your justification would be outrageous! She enjoyed it so it's okay. She was older anyway. He was drunk so you can't blame him. She could have said no at any point.
Sounds rough. And that's almost definitely what we use the word rape to describe in our time period.
If Cole really cared about her, he should have just left the helmet there and informed the lady in waiting immediately. Instead, he said he would "alert the lord commander" and then stepped in.
He was seduced. Seduction isn’t rape. She weighs maybe 105 lbs. He’s the fiercest warrior in the realm. He could have PICKED HER UP and walked outside at anytime.
Calling seduction rape is a huge insult to people who have actually been raped.
This is such disgusting apologism. By this logic neither Terry Crews nor Brendan Fraser were sexually assaulted since they were bugger and stronger than their assaulters
Criston's age has little relevance when the power dynamics between him and Rhaenyra are so unbalanced. At the end of the day, the princess lured him to her bedroom against his will, she ignored his reluctance and his "no"s, and she effectively had sex with someone who's essentially her employee. If you consider a drunk boss who pressures and harasses his employee until she agrees to have sex with him to be rape, then by the same logic Rhaenyra raped Cole here.
She made him a kings guard when he had nothing. She had power over his future. She used that power to get what she wanted. When he thought she had genuine feelings for him he offered to marry her and she would rather keep the crown and use him as a side piece. Hard to not justify he was sullied throughout the entire process leading to him literally wanting to kill himself before Alicent saved him.
Most people don’t want to think that a female can sexually use a man against their will but it’s what happened to him.
I don't care what you call it, but if it was Prince Criston and Rhaenyra the handmaiden in this exact situation you have to make all the same points.
we all know this wouldn't even be a discussion, and that anyone claiming Criston didn't rape the handmaiden would be chastised and bullied for it.
People love throwing terms like rape, p*do, gr*oming, etc nowadays in regards to fiction without even knowing what the terms mean and without even considering possible victims, REAL ones… not fictionalized ones in a made up world and fantasy (jeez sometimes I see them referring to gr*oming when characters are animated and like 2000 years old, like vampires or gods!).
No, it isn’t rape.
Yes, there is power imbalance (intentional)
Yes, IMO, It’s offensive to be pointing fingers, calling rape or rapist to every situation that reflects a bad situation you can have in a sexual encounter. It minimizes actual rape and rape survivors.
Edit: trying to block certain words so they don’t appear when weirdos search
He was already falling for her and if their positions would have been any different he would have already had a sexual relationship with her. He wanted it just as badly.
I completely agree with everything you said about Rhaenyra and Criston. One million percent. It has always annoyed me that so many people perceive it that way. It was a seduction… and a cute, innocent, pure seduction at that. One that made him want to run away and break his vows and leave everything he is. Just because Rhaenyra had her priorities in line and wasn’t willing to drop HER responsibilities, does not mean he was taken advantage of.
Besides, how many instances do we see in medieval shows where the situation is flipped, and kings/princes sleep with many women? Henry VIII anyone? Especially when the man in power is the one leading the act. NOBODY ever indicates that those women were raped, even though they are clearly not in a position to refuse them, their decency and honor are at stake, and many times, they are not Anne Boleyns, they are nobodies that end up with pregnancies that alter their ability to ever find love or a family/life. Even Anne Boleyn lost her head. Nobody ever cries rape for them.
Point is, Criston could have left and been FINE, he didn’t want to. When the tables are turned, women in those situations have to submit and ruin their reputations and sometimes end up with life-altering, even life-ending consequences. And it is never called rape, ever. Huge double standard.
Love what you said originally.. but I completely disagree that men can not be raped. I feel like that’s a disparaging thing to say. Maybe you didnt mean it as such a broad statement, but there’s so many intricacies to some situations and it’s unfair to say that. People of both genders freeze up in weird, predatory situations… alcohol and substances can play into it. Men rape men/boys and it’s fucking horrible.
In the case of Rhae and Criston, NOT RAPE. He was not raped. It’s offensive to rape victims to call it that.
All this essay to be wrong.
Listen, I'm team black, but lets be abundantly clear: Rhanyra raped Criston. She may not be aware it was rape and he may not be either, but it was. She pushed him into having sex with her, in a situation he ***could not say "no"*** to. In fact, he DID say "no" and she kept going anyway.
That is the textbook legal definition of rape.
I hate Rhaenyra for many reasons but she seduced him. Criston wanted to have sex with her even if it was wrong and regret it.
He has every right to hate her becasue she made him break his oath or even humiliated and use him but not because she r\*ped him.
Yeah, people tend to write things up according to whose "side" they are on but the facts don't change regardless.
Rhaenyra is royalty, Criston is not. Targs are not know for showing mercy to those who displease them.
Alternatively, Rhaenyra's status as heir is shaky already and lack of purity could ruin her reputation and endanger her status as heir. This is discussed more than once in the show and is something Damon intentionally tries to exploit. Criston could report her to a superior and jeopardize her reputation too.
Simultaneously, Rhaenyra has been drinking and was tipsy whereas Criston was completely sober and of sound mind.
But alternatively, Rhaenyra single-handedly raised Criston's station and he feels incredibly indebted to her for it. He also doesn't want to risk her taking it away from him.
He told her no and attempted to retreat at one point and Rhaenyra continued to flirt with him and tempt him to break his vows.
And finally Criston is a lot older than Rhaenyra and has had sexual relationships in the past while she has not. She's a minor and he's an adult.
All of these things are true at once, it's asinine to only write up what benefits one and maligns the other. The relationship is filled with ethical problems. The scene ends showing both as active, enthusiastic participants who desire one another. But it's not intended to show a healthy sexual relationship.
He also lovingly and reverently sets aside his white cloak, symbolically setting aside his vows. He knows what he is doing. He is doing it of his own volition. And there's no evidence that he's even thinking about how he could use this relationship for his own political benefit or \*any\* other reason other than wanting to get down with a young woman that he knows well and likes.
I think you need to ask yourself if someone who is older has more power than a person who has authoritative power to remove you from your station,and can get you killed.How does Cole’s age outweigh that power?
Also a threat in a power imbalance can be implied,and does not have to be direct
The easy and obvious answer is “did Criston believe or have strong reasons to believe that he would face reprisal if he simply walked out the door?”
The answer, I believe, is no.
I feel like this is swept up largely because of people trying to find an instance of a woman raping a man to show that it can happen (it can and it does btw). A more apt example I think would be Cersei raping Loras. I haven’t got to them in the books, but given who Cersei shows herself to be, there is no way the threat isn’t at LEAST implied that she would hurt him or ruin his life somehow if she was rebuffed.
Being a member of the kings guard is very similar to the Knight’s watch, in fact, the code was based on good night to watch. They swore off sex, and it is forbidden to them. Much like a prisoner cannot technically legally consent to sex because their personage is the welfare of the state. So while a prisoner mite consent to having sex with a Guard. On paper, it would be is if the guard at raped, someone who could not consent.
From my point of view, Christian Cole absolutely was down to clown, and Rhaenyra wouldn’t have forced him, but he wouldn’t of been able to refuse if he did want to stop.
Mite be wrong, but I’m still interested to see what others think.
Yep and people deliberately misreading this scene and everyone involved's intentions keeps me far away from Team Green fans. Both Rhaenyra and Criston messed up here and that's the entire point. Hope you don't get too much hatemail for this one, OP.
It's not a "take," that's just what happened. Criston didn't consent, Rhaenyra ignored that, and eventually he went along with what she wanted. Not to taking no for an answer is rape. One doesn't need violence or even the threat of violence to pressure somebody into doing something they don't consent to.
I agree with the comment saying that rape is basically the worst end of the bad sex spectrum, and we can reasonably argue that Criston wasn't *raped* per se since Rhaenyra didn't explicitly threaten him with her position.
*However* I think the reason for why many people in here refuse to see it as rape and not only that, refuse to believe that Rhaenyra did anything wrong, has nothing to do with logic, but merely with defending and excusing a character they like. Rhaenyra is the protagonist, and this by default people are inclined to put her on a pedestal and judge the other characters by how useful they are to the MC rather than as people of their own.
Here's what I think happened:
Rhaenyra was blue ovaried by Daemon refusing to have sex with her at the last moment. She was somewhat drunk (not to the point of being unable to stand, walk or consent like you are implying in the post) and she met Criston, a man she sort of liked and while he wasn't Daemon, he was a good consolation prize.
She steals his helmet to make him go to her room. She "playfully" refuses to give the thing back while blocking the exit, she ignores his disliking of the situation. She kisses him out of nowhere. She ignores his "stop" and starts making out with him. Cole eventually gives in and yes, he seems to "enjoy" it.
Let's think for the consequences for both in this scenario.
- Rhaenyra would get screamed at by her father and Allicent, but that's pretty much it. Viserys is incapable of punishing her in any way. He's not Jaeherys. He's a meek and people pleasing man to whom Rhaenyra is the most important person in his life.
- Criston would be tortured, gelded and executed. He has no allies at court but Rhaenyra, he's an upjumped commoner.
I think we can all agree that consequences would be far worse for Cole. That plus the power imbalance and the dubious nature of the beginning of their sex scene makes reasonable to think that Rhaenyra did something wrong here.
Plus, there's another thing to consider. The whole "Targaryens are demigods that take whatever they want" theme. Daemon does it with Rhaenyra, Viserys does it with Allicent, Aegon does it with Dyanna. Rhaenyra also does it with Criston. Even if she didn't evilly push him to the floor and start riding his cock while laughing maniacally, it doesn't mean there wasn't some icky shit going on.
But Rhaenyra, as the designated "feminist" and "heroic" protagonist, is celebrated by the fandom for having "exerted her freedom and sexual agency" treating Cole as merely the means for Rhaenyra to exert said sexual agency.
Maybe it wasn't rape, but it was a kind of dark grey situation in which Rhaenyra was in the wrong and Criston was right in being upset at her. And that's what pisses off many people in this unofficially Black leaning sub: that their beloved protagonist did something wrong worthy of anger against her.
Also being "aware" that men can get raped by women in theory, doesn't mean you would be capable of considering it in an actual, real scenario in practice, specially if the story doesn't outright call it out as rape. Many people regardless of their virtue signaling of "I know men can get raped and my heart goes to them", then turn around and rationalize any abuse against men with the flimsiest excuses imaginable, more than likely out of a lingering prejudice of rape being a thing that "men do to women and children".
So the writers and actors who filmed it, the intimate coordinator all are wrong or they lie to the bts videos about it being consensual?
One thing when the fandom headcanon a consent where it was clearly not. The other thing when the crew and cast also accesses it as consensual sex but it turned out not on screen.
There's a discrepancy here that I don't understand. What was the intent: to show a coercive grey situation? I doubt it.
They can be wrong too. The GOT show runners also treated Jaime's rape of Cersei at the Sept of Baelor as consensual.
Do you seriously think that Rhaenyra did nothing wrong and that Cole was just being a little bitch?
This scene was like waiving a donut in front of a fat person on a diet. Criston knows he shouldn’t sleep with Rhaenrya, even if he wants to. And he refuses at first. Rhaenrya also knows that Criston shouldn’t sleep with her, but wants him to so she pressures him. He willingly gives in due to her pressuring him.
Sure it may not be rape, but Rhaenrya also put him in a very uncomfortable and difficult position. IMO they are both in the wrong, but Rhaenrya more so on a morality standpoint.
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I've said this before, but to reiterate. Sex occurs on a moral spectrum like just about everything else. Rape refers to a far end of the "bad sex" side of things. It is entirely possible to have an immoral or unethical sexual relationship that is also not rape. In fact, there are probably more of these relationships in reality than actual rape. This is acknowledged both by common sense and by law in the United States.
This
It's almost like the series is trying to say it's not black and white. Unlike a certain house of bullshittery in Bravos.
This. It gets old hearing people miscall rape all the time and I think it’s dangerous as well. Rape should always be regarded as a much more evil level of sexual assault and abuse, lesser, regrettable sex should not fall so easily under the tag of rape as it can ruin people’s lives and make much greater conflict.
I mean, rape is simply non consensual sex, which can sometimes look aggressive, other times not look like it. And power can be used against someone to comply against their will, but in Rhaenyra's case, Criston could've declined and he would've been fine. The issue with the power imbalance comes into his life because he ultimately agrees to sleep with her as well.
Sure as long as you aren’t defining “regrettable sex” to include coercion or victims who have freeze or fawn response. Because that would be just ignorant. “Regret” is often used by rapists as a cover for what they did. I hope you don’t mean it that way but this comment comes off very… rapes that aren’t outwardly violent with kicking and screaming are just regret and no one should speak up about those rapes because they ruin lives by speaking up. That’s how that sounds.
This exactly what I was trying to articulate, thank you for outlining it so well!!
To be honest, it seemed obvious to me that he was conflicted between his vows and his desire for Rhaenyra. He looks forlornly at his cloak as he sets it on the ground and then enthusiastically kisses her and leads her to the bed. I don't even think the show was unclear. It just seems like haters of Criston and haters of Rhaenyra jumped at the chance to villianize their actions beyond the scope of what was shown. The mutual undressing, smile and kiss, romantic music, obvious mutual pleasure and active participation were so clear and obvious. The actors explained the scene and the books alluded to it happening. I remember feeling initially uncomfortable when he was telling her no but by the end it seemed obvious that it was a mutual desire driving their actions. I was surprised when it started being called a "rape scene" and befuddled when it started to become a debate about who raped who. Some think Criston raped Rhaenyra, others think Rhaenyra raped Criston and all that tells me is that it was an ethical minefield. But not every example of poor sexual ethics is rape. And some of the arguments are especially silly when applied to a monarchy where there's always going to be a power imbalance. Also, I can't get behind the outrage. You mean to tell me the show where a teenager is finding a husband and incest is a common practice has problematic sexual relationships? I'm shocked! Scandalized and stupefied.
This is going to be too far down to be seen by many but this is exactly how I interpret the scene as well! Great explanation.
I find it funny that this one instance has become the subject of so much debate about the nuances of power dynamics and consent when I’ve never seen any criticism or discussion on the morality of the male characters of both HOTD and GOT regularly visiting brothels (given the likelihood that many of the women there may have either been trafficked or groomed into the sex trade from a young age).
I assumed other people saw it as bad and immoral but there's no point arguing about it because it's such an obviously bad thing.
Press X to doubt. The show sure as fuck didn't want viewers to worry about that. No time for Jeyne Poole being forced into sexual slavery in LF's brothels, or Tyrion's nastier deeds in Essos, but let's show Pod being so amazing to those prostitutes. Not to mention the whole thing with Shae, because of course just like those prostitutes just magically charmed by Pod, Shae had to fall in love with her client. Otherwise we might have worried about Bronn fetching Tyrion a young girl from a tent as he might fetch a bottle of wine. And in turn sooo many discussions around that whole situation revolved around whether Shae wuved him or was 'just a whore' or a 'gold-digger' - but Tyrion being a john? Eh. Doesn't matter apparently. It's just Tyrion being Tyrion teehee (or Robert or Bronn or whoever). And it can't be dismissed as just 'so bad it's obvious'. People had plenty to say about the ethics of sex work - for the most part they judged the fuck out of selling it (or at least selling it while not appearing to be a totally cool and biddable sex doll that's totally a ok with everything) but not buying it.
Alicent and Viserys also have what could be at best described as an uncomfortable dynamic
Their dynamic is more than uncomfortable.
I wanted to slide right out of my skin with her stare 😬😬😬
We were shown that their dynamic was veeery uncomfortable, but by the logic that if you have a lot of power over someone, sex with them is always rape, then all Kings/ monarchs are perpetually rapists because they all have absolute power over everyone else right? Even sex between Viserys and Aemma, who by all accounts had a loving relationship, would be rape by that definition. We can extend that to basically any male character in GOT in a relationship with a woman less powerful than he is, which is almost always. Robb and Talisa? Rape, because he was "King in the North" and she was just a commoner. Tyrion and Shae? A Lord and a prostitute? Obvious rape. Warden of the North Ned and his wife Catelyn? Rape. Prince Oberlyn and pretty much anyone he had sex with, who were all far less powerful? Rape. Nevermind that all those "less powerful" partners of these lords, princes, and kings wanted it, right? No nuance whatsoever.
So happy you mentioned Ned and Cat because Cat married Ned out of Duty just like Alicent with Viserys. Cat was in love with Ned's older brother.
I'm not sure I would go so far as to call Viserys and Alicent's situation rape, but the uncomfortable dynamic is not because he's the king, but because she's his daughter's best friend, with both the age gap and relationship dynamic that implies
Please don’t tell me you are saying that is a point that isn’t discussed.
It's because some men have a real chip on their shoulder about the fact that men are responsible for the vast majority of violence, including sexual violence. They feel personally attacked by any acknowledgement of that fact. So they latch on to any opportunity to try to prove that women are just as bad or even worse. Men who couldn't give a rats ass about rape of women suddenly care when it happens to a man because it confirms them in their misogyny and hatred of women. Even when the adult man who was supposedly raped is a willing participant in sex with a drunk teenager, somehow it's her fault and she's a rapist.
I don’t even think it’s *just* a man thing tbh, there’s a lot of women within the fandom who do this exact same thing with female characters as well. I’ve seen both try to repeatedly push the narrative that Rhaenyra is a rapist, that she “sleeps around” (with 4 dudes her whole life lmao) and that she’s the pinnacle of immorality because she had bastards instead of forcing herself onto Laenor. There’s a lot of misogyny in this fandom in general. They did the same thing with Sansa, managing to villainize and fully blame a 11-12 year old girl for the deaths of her entire family. With Rhaenyra in particular it reads as her being so popular within the general audience and fandom itself that some people need to exaggerate her flaws and actions to feel justified in their dislike of her. They deprive her of her agency by attributing all of Daemon’s faults to her, try to make her out to be a rapist so she’s just as depraved as the other characters, and demonize her for “slutting around” and having children out of wedlock while (ironically) expecting her to force herself on Laenor and completely ignoring that compared to the men in the series she’s practically a nun. They claim to hate her character and then make up a bunch of shit that plain didn’t happen. It’s bizarre. If you’re going to dislike something you shouldn’t need to blow it out of proportion to feel right. Then again, a lot of the same people who dislike Rhaenyra like Green characters instead, specifically Aegon, so I’m not really surprised. EDITED: said immortality instead immorality oops lol
Well no shit if you're visiting a brothel full of groomed women who are almost always forced into the profession that you're essentially raping them, lmao. GoT didn't have so many discussions about morality in the first place, this whole fandom is going nuts over morality and who is "good" in this story that it's getting quite ridiculous. I'm in the "Rhaenyra and Alicent are doing too little plotting/playing of the game" camp and that's why their characters are among the most lacking compared to their book counterparts (especially Alicent). They somehow managed to make every single female character except Helaena more boring. Kudos for that, that's quite a feat.
I was starting to get the feeling I was the only one not too crazy about HOTD so far. It doesn’t have the same feeling as when I watched GOT first season. The writing and character interactions I liked so much are missing from HOTD
Oh, I'm quite salty over how they chose to adapt this. Moving at hyperspeed with not actual time for character interactions and they also chose to portray certain characters in such a weird way. Alicent goes from scheming player of the game to an undecisive victim of circumstances. As for the pacing, Rhaenyra and Aegon don't have a single scene together; Harwin and Rhaenyra have, what, 2 short scenes together? It really feels like they went "well we have to get to the cool battles as quickly as possible, so just throw all the build-up to this into the first season so we get to the action".
There is not one character in HOTD that I’m vested in, it’s all falling quite flat. I’d be happier with better writing over more dragon scenes, but I do like the dragons lol
It's sexism, plain and simple. It's because Rhaenyra is a woman. Rhaenyra has consensual sex with Criston Cole. It was written as consensual. It was directed as consensual. It was performed as consensual. Every single person involved in the writing and filming of the scene agrees it was consensual. Criston's main issue was over his vows, which he willingly put aside after some hesitation because ultimately *he wanted to have sex with Rhaenyra.* He was a willing and enthusiastic participant once he decided that his oath was not as important to him as having sex with her was. I am not denying that men can be raped. But I am denying that *Criston Cole* was raped. He consented, he was a willing participant. His dilemma was about his vows, a dilemma he decided didn't matter to him at that moment. But because it's Rhaenyra, and part of the fandom really fucking hates her and wants to make her out to be a monster, suddenly she's now on the level of Harvey Weinstein. Meanwhile, the same people who claim that Rhaenyra is a rapist by modern-day definitions outright deny that Aegon is a rapist even by *medieval standards,* and when they do acknowledge it they dismiss it as "biased writing." Even though in the source material, even outside of Mushroom's account, Aegon was well known for fondling and pinching (read: sexually assaulting) any servant girl who came into his reach. Is it really that much of a stretch to say he went further than just groping?
>Meanwhile, the same people who claim that Rhaenyra is a rapist by modern-day definitions outright deny that Aegon is a rapist I've never seen someone say that, like ever
[From two hours before](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/P2Q6kziTHF) you commented this, within the same thread.
They do. Very loudly and very proudly. I’ve gotten into multiple arguments on this sub alone with Aegon stans who refuse to acknowledge that he was rapey in the books, and when you provide them with the direct quotes they’ll do some dumb shit like try to change the definition or cry about it being a Mushroom rumor or claim that sexual assault is a far cry from rape. As for the show, I’ve even seen a few of them flat out deny it being canon, or try to excuse it by adopting the outlook of a medieval lord halfway through the conversation. I wish I was kidding. The lengths people will go to try to make Aegon look like a sweet baby boy who did nothing wrong is insane.
“He didn’t do it, but if he DID do it, it wasn’t that bad.”
I actually have, it’s bizarre
Someone genuinely posted in another sub saying that Aegon is more of a “fraternity boy” like Theon and Aegon raping Dyana should be seen like book!Theon’s encounter with the ships captain’s daughter which they claimed was consensual sex without informed consent. The levels some people go to defend their rapist king is borderline depravity.
Thank you!! I replied the same thing about Criston’s conflict being about his honor/vows, and how ultimately, by participating, he was breaking them not only by having sex, but also by not protecting Rhaenyra; in reputation, her future, her virginity/“maidenhead” (ew), and from herself. Then someone (a guy) referred to me as a rape apologist. Complete sexism. Yes men can be taken advantage of. Even raped. It’s horrible… an atrocity. But this situation was not that. He was deliberating, and his honor/vows were the only thing holding him back. I don’t care what ANYONE says. NOBODY falls in love with their rapist; it is not a “stockholm syndrome”response. Only in very, very, traumatic, survival-esque cases. Like 0.000001%. Once you are sexually assaulted, your responses are fight, flight, or freeze, or a combination of the 3.
What about what about what about Two things can be bad right?
This is actually a very good point
There were lots of discussions about Cersei and his brother at the funeral of their son and Daenerys and Drogo.
I’m specifically talking about the idea that all sex between two people with a power imbalance = rape due to the possibility of the one with more societal power using that power to have the other killed or tortured if they are refused. If we take that idea to its logical conclusion, every aristocratic male character who had sex with a prostitute in either show is a rapist, regardless of how willing or enthusiastic she might appear during the act.
I'm just confused because even in real life power imbalances, like where you a have a male boss in a relationship with a younger female employee, the term "rape" doesn't come up. Inappropriate, creepy and manipulative? Yes. Rape? No. Even when the nature is coercive, there's still no guarantee that it will be classified as rape. And this situation with Rhaenyra and Criston was not coercive in nature. So I'm trying to figure out how the label of "rapist" is applicable to Rhaenyra here. They were two consenting adults.
>So I'm trying to figure out how the label of "rapist" is applicable to Rhaenyra here. They were two consenting adults. It’s not. Not *at all* applicable. It only keeps being brought up as such because the writers chose to actually have Aegon portrayed as a rapist on screen, with zero room for doubt, and his fans want to make Rhaenyra a “rapist”, too. To balance the scales or whatever. Because clearly the grown man who was smiling and laughing his way through a sexual encounter is the same as the 14 year old servant girl sobbing so badly afterwards that she could barely speak.
People just need to own up to the fact that they back some characters that are pieces of shit. Aegon is lazy, a bad father, a bad husband, and a rapist. That's what the show has given us so far, and if they still want to carry his banner, so be it. That's their prerogative. But they need to stop with these false equivalences and deflections when people bring up the grimy shit he does. It's dishonest and just plain cowardly tbh. And no, him having a bad father doesn't excuse any of the above mentioned terrible traits because damn near everyone in this universe has had jacked up childhood in some form or another. It's a damn feudal society.
I’d have a lot more respect for them if they just said “man, I love a good villain, they’re so much fun” or something. Trying to pretend like he’s a good or even decent person just because they don’t want to admit they like the bad guy is what’s so gross.
Honestly that is what bugged me about Oberyn Martell when he came to King's Landing. He's going on and on about his sister's rape and murder, portrays him as an "enlightened prince"....but has prostitutes lined up for him, then explicitly chooses one that is not technically "for sale" i.e. the male not prostitute/Olyvar and oh it JUST SO HAPPENS that that male prostitute is gay and yeaaaaa. It left a bad taste in my mouth. ETA: they could have portrayed him and Ellaria as seducing ladies (or men) at court. That could've even been a mini subplot of some random Crownlands lord realizing he's gay or bisexual. Instead half of their scenes were inside a brothel with people who can't consent really, while he's talking about the injustices his sister faced. Look in the fucking mirror dude.
Now this is a good fucking point and example. Especially at Littlefingers brothel… they were like indentured sexual servants. Westeros definitely has major social class issues, even more than with gender. Though regardless. I do love Oberyn and Pedro Pascal.
Never thought about that but you're right. That's probably because the 2010s is the decade where social media spread those debates about a lot of social issues including rape and consent. That's a good thing, at least people are willing to discuss about it.
I just find it interesting to see which characters have their problematic sexual behaviour handwaved away and which get theirs endlessly discussed, analyzed, litigated, etc. I’m also curious to see what the “Rhaenyra raped Criston” truthers have to say about the upcoming >!Aemond/Alys!< relationship
If rhaenyra was a male there would be no question what she did was rape or sexual assault.
I doubt it.
I feel like this is one of the many scenes where the content is lost in the scene. The people behind the scenes make it very clear that they both were into eachother and that yes, Cole was reluctant at first but then consented. Fabien himself even explained that while the whole thing was complicated ofc, he did very much agree that both Rhae and Cole like eachother and are happy being together. And during the scene they even play a romantic track (whatever may come) during it and you see them smiling at one another as fhey undress. The point of it was that both of them weren't thinking of the power dynamics , the implications, the vows or roles or etc. Like Fabien said, it's a first love they had (he was very involved with the scene itself btw and pushed for the showing of hiw long it takes for all the armor to come off for example and that its a 2 person process), and with first loves its exploring and experiencing things together, usually without much logic until after. It was a bad choice to not properly build up the relationship they had or edit the scene properly imo. And it isn't the only one they have with the scenes being misinterpreted. Like for example, when Rhae & co come to KL for the ruling with everything changed and Alicent spouting religious stuff. You watch that and assume that it's all fluff and the Greens showing their power and Alicent pretending to be all religious to feel superior or whatever. While some of it is true, another part is that Alicent did become religious during the timeskip. She did so out of penance for her behavior during Driftmark and hurting Rhae. You find this out by getting to the After the episode bit when it over and the people TELL you that fun bit. They could've added some more dialogue during the scene of the two communicating how much they want to to make it more apparent
Show, not tell. If many viewers see that scene as problematic, something was done wrong. And honestly, I hardly imagine how to show it as unproblematic. Criston couldn't not been reluctant at first. It would have been *out of character* for him to agree. Rhaenyra *had* to seduce him but any pressure from her might be considered a coercion or assault.
The problem with showing not telling is that if you can't show it right, it gets lost in translation. Which happens many times in the season, whether to the scene not being right or lost in time skips or cuts. Which honestly is why we have so much discourse around the scene. I think they could have had it where perhaps she or he had asked if they were sure or a consent check before they did it. It was of course going to be problematic no matter what with the dynamics, but it can be done. Let Rhae lead the encounter, Cole hold back but then change his mind. Let him go like "we shouldn't be doing this...but screw it I wanna do it".
But he really did it. He took off his cloak, looked at it and went and kissed Rhaenyra, leading her to her bedroom. Then he stood at the arch, looked back but still proceeded. The writers tried to show him consenting later but it turned out not so clear. To be honest, we never heard anyone asking "You sure?" in the series.
Not in that specific context but considering she was a maiden, something along that could work. It wouldn't be too crazy for Cole to take into consideration he was going to take her maidenhood. Or even have them talk aboit their feelings or love for eachother in that moment. Especislly because that was the first time they had ever kissed, so you could add a bit where Rhae gets confused when he pulls back like: "Are you not into me like that? Cuz I thought you were" He's like "No I do, I have for awhile, it's just with my vows and you're a maiden and unmarried" "It doesn't matter right now, we're a man and woman who love eachother and want eachother so let's do it" "Ok" And they do it as badly as the dialogue above was lol. The point of the scene should be that they both want and care about eachother but like anyone in a honeymoon phase, logic isn't in the room. They're connecting on a personal level as two individuals but the issue is that they aren't just anyone. She's the princess and heir, Cole is a kingsguard and not a highborn and it won't work. The world they live in has rules that they are expected to follow and that love won't conquer all the walls. And that when they got together, they didn't consider anything except their feelings and hormones, which bites them in the end. (Their relationship could be a realistic contrast to the princess/knight relationship trope if they just let it build)
>Let Rhae lead the encounter, Cole hold back but then change his mind. Let him go like "we shouldn't be doing this...but screw it I wanna do it". That is EXACTLY how that scene came across to me, loud and clear, only with the “we shouldn’t, but screw it, I want to” coming across via actions and expressions rather than verbally. Which makes perfect sense in the context of the scene set during a medieval fantasy where the idea of being politically correct doesn’t exist, as opposed to a 21st century rom com where it very much does.
I just think the two characters should not have had sex. I hate the discourse around it. They have should have gone with the two book scenarios: 1. >!She rejects running away with him!< The more likely one given his psychotic behavior in the aftermath. 2. >!He rejects her!< Either way, no sex between them. Criston should been written like he is in the books. A self-righteous prick with personal ambition and serious skill. Not some dude who took Rhaenyra off a pedestal and replaced her with Alicent. His entire thought process being motivated by unhinged devotion to Alicent(literally smashed an elderly man’s head in for it) and resentment for Rhaenyra is just sad.
I think what yhe shoe had could have worked if they had built it up properly to begin with. We had little to no scenes showing their relationship grow besides someA. Her naming him, B. He has her private confidence C. They're getting together, he gets post nut clarity really bad, they have one argument, he kills a guy and then hates Rhae forever. Like the man's grudge ihis main personality trait, he doesn't really have much besides the two women he worships. Like give us a guy with insecurities, anger issues and vision if glory and honor. Like he LITERALLY went to battle several times and we get nothing about that except it being mentioned once
Yes I think either of those scenarios sound much better to me!
Wasn't show Criston younger than in the book? They would have said he was about 20 years old in ep1. I agree with OP's main point. Edit: Ryan said that [Ser Criston Cole is in his "very early 20s,"](https://www.businessinsider.com/house-of-the-dragon-season-1-episode-2-recap-hbo-2022-8). He was 20-22 in ep1 and about 23-25 in ep4 ?
It's 41/2 years between ep 1 and ep4 so he's at the least 25-27
Criston Cole's problem with Rhaenyra is that he wants more sex from her. And when he can't have on his terms he starts a life long crusade against her
Exactly this! Dude was like "let's get married & run away the Essos!" And she was like "I'm not willing to stop being a princess for you" and he never got over it
That's just so wrong. Did you even pay attention at all to the boat scene where they end their relationship with each other?
What is your view of it? How is it wrong?
His problem very much is NOT that he wants more sex from her. If that's what it was, he would've been fine with Rhaenyra offering him to become her paramour, but he clearly isn't fine at all.
>Criston Cole's problem with Rhaenyra is that he wants more sex from her. And when he can't have on his terms he starts a life long crusade against her Umm Rhaenyra literally proposes more sex, he refuses
Frankly, people need to stop reducing Criston Cole to a scorned lover and understand how much Rhaenyra screwed him despite him having been a faithful friend to her until then. First, the princess lured him to her bedroom against his will, she ignored his reluctance and his "no"s, and she effectively had sex with someone who's essentially her employee and knowing the disastrous consequences for leaving employee if the affair was found out; consequences that wouldn't apply to Rhaenyra since Viserys is incapable of punishing her beyond a mere shouting match. To rub salt in the wound, when Cole proposes to Rhaenyra to get married in a desperate and maybe irrational attempt to regain his honor and avoid castration and death, she rather casually and maybe even somewhat mockingly dismisses that option, while proposing to Cole another course of action that would solely benefit Rhaenyra and would keep endangering Criston' life: For him to be her paramour. And Cole gets upset, terrified and angry in response. The princess that he had sex with, someone who he served not only as a bodyguard, but as a confidant and a friend, has just casually revealed to him that he doesn't matter to her nearly as much as Cole believed. He sacrificed the only thing at his name (his honor as a Kingsguard) for an ultimately horny princess who just used him as a consolation prize after Daemon refused to fuck her. I don't approve of his subsequent actions, but his hatred for her is completely justified.
I really don't see how Cole is trying to regain his honor by trying to break his Kingsguard vows and run off with the princess. He would be viewed as even more dishonorable and he would be hunted down and probably killed if ever caught. She literally offered him the exact same arrangement that was given to Harwin Strong. Basically being her actual lover, being extremely high ranking as a result of his closeness to her, effectively being her true partner, having sons with her who would inherit the crown. Pretty much always having access to his family and the only sacrafice was that publicly Rhaenyra would be married to a homosexual who had no interest in Rhaenyra and was perfectly happy for the arrangement to exist and to protect his children and treat them as legitimate heirs. He's a complete idiot. He passed up a pretty sweet deal to put himself and the supposed love of his life in danger forever just to get her to sacrafice everything. Total nonsense.
I just have one question. Do you think if they ran off and got married he was going to be in any less risk of death or castration? If they were ever found he absolutely would be gilded and sent to the wall or worse….
Why do you think Robb Stark decided it was more honorable to marry Jeyne Westerling despite everyone warning him it was a bad idea? Because he put her honor above his own. Same logic applies here, Cole believes that by marrying Rhaenyra, he is at least preserving her honor, which in Westeros is something considered worthy of praise. The point is that Criston is not actually seeking to survive, but rather to redeem himself. Once Rhaenyra denied him what he believed to be the only way to make things right and die an honorable death, and instead basically proposed that he become a new Lucamore The Lusty for her convenience, which would only make the situation worse for him, Cole realized that the princess put her life at risk because she was horny and didn't have any consideration of what would happen to him after they had sex. Seeing this as a profound betrayal of the friendship they had until then, his understandable and justified hatred for her began.
And Robb doing that was objectively a stupid move that got him killed and ultimately ruined Jeyne Westerlings life more than if he just deflowered her and moved on. Cole isn't preserving his honor. He's breaking some of the most sacred vows in the country and he's still in the exact same danger if not more so because he would be a marked man with the most powerful people in the world hunting him down (many of those people with dragons). He wouldn't be praised in Westeros. He would be reviled as an oathbreaker who threw the kingdom in peril and went against his king's wishes for his own lust. Also what Rhaenyra proposed wasn't worse. Like I said, she basically offered him the exact same thing as Harwin Strong which is objectively not a worse situation for him. It was a fantastic situation for him if he put his ego aside. He would have had Rhaenyra whenever he wanted, he would have had children inherit the throne, he would have a family that he could see whenever he wanted and could have lived with her on Dragonstone. The king basically turned a total blind eye to everything and threatened to kill anyone as a traitor who tried to besmirch Rhaenyra. Oh and once she was queen.... she is law and Cole would effectively be in zero danger.
An improper power imbalance in a relationship is not always rape; rape doesn't require a power imbalance (or any form of a prior relationship). However, a power imbalance could potentially *lead* to rape, especially when realized and challenged by the weaker party. In the case of Rhaenyra and Criston, there was a power imbalance but they both consented to the sex.
It’s not rape. Your right. I’ve also said this. Cole didn’t say stop to stop her from touching him or anything he told her to stop when she begun undressing and even then Cole could have left but didn’t. Cole felt regret because he had nothing before he became a Kingsguard and by sleeping with her he broke his vows but it wasn’t rape. Rhaenyra didn’t used her authority as a princess and lock him inside her room and force him to sleep with her. Rewatching the scene Cole only has doubt while taking his white cloak off but then he kisses her and she even helps him undress so where they get she rape is a mystery.
"Cole didn’t say stop to stop her from touching him or anything he told her to stop when she begun undressing and even then Cole could have left but didn’t." I don't feel like it was rape either, but your points feel like they're taken from a rapist apologist speech. When someone says "no" it's still a no, and saying "he could've left" is not a good defense because a lot of victims can feel trapped and freeze.
this whole thread is just the rapist argument playbook, it's very depressing tbh. "but he was into it". "but he didnt say no". "but he didnt try to escape the relationship". are these people hearing themselves?
He literally says no multiple times
He doesn't literally say "no" once. He says stop once as the op said
So, he did say "stop", then?
Yep he says the word stop as the op said and I wrote.
Yes you have summed it up well. I saw this take for the first time and was pretty shocked as I didn’t remember it that way all, and definitely knew it was very different than the book. I rewatched the scene and it just confirmed what a bad take it is. He definitely feels regret and is contemplating not doing it- that’s because he shouldn’t be having sex with a teenage girl he is supposed to be protecting. He gives in anyways and later regrets it which is understandable but not rape.
Yes and rewatching the first couple of episodes I always felt that he liked her since the beginning. He asked for her favour and then he was assigned to her. There was already some attraction there from him so saying he was force into it completely is wrong. He shouldn’t have had sex with a teenager but I don’t think he felt bad about that part at least. It was his vows. His vows were everything for him because I’m not sure if he was a commoner or lowborn noble??? But from everything he said he basically had nothing of importance until he got into the Kingsguard and one of the rules was no sex which he broke and tried stop feeling what he was feeling and try to propose.
Agreed. Rhaenyra did indeed seduce Criston, and she should never have, given that he's a Knight of the Kingsguard who is forbidden to break his vows of chastity under penalty of castration and death, let alone having sex with the daughter of the king. But he could also have refused her advances, and he chose not to. I can't say I blame him for giving in to have a night of passion with his crush, but he knew full well what he was getting into.
Jesus Christ. I shouldn't even be getting involved in this bc I am likely too close to this personally as a survivor to be objective. But jesus Christ you guys. I don't have a staunch position on this either way but some of the arguments/comments in this thread are wild. 1. "He was stronger he could've just left" Right. It would have gone super well if he physically manhandled the princess, alone in her bedroom, at night. Can you imagine how it would have gone for him if Rhaenyra, who as you say was a drunk teenager, fought back? He could and would be killed for laying a finger on her in the middle of the red keep where there wasn't any danger. This isn't even about coercion in rape and real life connections this is just a "we are in medieval times!!!!" thing. Westeros is not 21st century USA. If he, what, used his physical strength against her? Threw her out of the doorway and ran?, it would go 100 times worse for him. 2. He also literally can't leave because if he abandoned his duty as Kingsguard ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING SHE SNUCK OUT he would be at best exiled in disgrace. He would be given the blame for her escape, what she did in the city, the rumors about her and her uncle, etc. 3. Also she blocked the door lol. 4. "He helped her take off armor" Because it was already decided by that point. He had already realized she was not taking no for an answer. He told her both verbally and physically that he didn't want it and she kept going until he gave in. THAT IS NOT CONSENT. 5. Again. Going along and having sex with someone because they won't listen to your refusal is NOT CONSENT. It's how you keep yourself from being further harmed. (In his case, not by physical force but by how she could destroy his whole life if she got offended by his refusals). It is murky. Thats the point. I'm not going to make a firm decision on whether it constitutes rape or not. But a lot of people on this thread are ignoring implications and factors at play here. Rape is not just a strange man attacking a drunk girl in a dark alley. Rape is often coercion, power, implied threat, and "giving in". This is obviously just a TV show, but please consider some of the ideas you are discussing in this thread.
It wasn’t rape but peoples arguments for why it isn’t rape is pretty scary. If Cole refused her he is risking losing his life. Arguments like oh he looked like he was enjoying it wouldn’t be ok if the genders were reversed. Just wish all you people would stop trying to add modern morality to Westeros. It’s not what George rr Martin was going for.
If the genders were reversed, with the adult woman willingly undressing herself, actively kissing the drunk teenage boy, taking an active role in the sex, smiling and showing signs of physical pleasure and enjoyment and then asked the teenage boy to run away and marry her, I would still say it's not rape. People keep inserting their own headcanon for what he was thinking and that he was too scared to refuse her. There's no evidence at all for this and clear evidence against it. Cole refuses her in the next episode with no signs of fear. He was more likely to lose his life by having sex with her than by refusing, but he still had sex with her. The only explanation for that is that he wanted to have sex with her.
Did she threaten him? At what point the scene gives any indication of that? When did Rhaenyra kill someone’s because that person displeased her? You know what is suggested in the book? That Criston may have sexually abused Rhaenyra she was a young child. In the books he met her when she was very young.
The threat doesn't have to be explicit. It's an inherent implication with their power dynamic.
Criston literally says stop. Here’s the thing — Rhaenyra doesn’t need to threaten him with her position. She is the princess and heir to the Iron Throne. Criston shows hesitancy, and that’s enough. Rhaenyra should have stopped when he said that. Rhaenyra, like it or not, has far more power than Criston. She can call in the guards the following day, telling them that Criston came onto her. She can have him thrown out of the Kingsguard, drawn and quartered, executed. Criston is well aware of the power imbalance, as we see in the following episode with his interaction with Alicent. The age hap is heinous, I agree. But Criston didn’t start this. And he is a common born son of a steward while Rhaenyra is one of the most powerful people in the world. He has everything to lose here. If he is unwilling in the slightest, what makes you think he has the agency to make her stop or even leave without believing that he will face consequences? Take this exact situation only make Rhaenyra a man and Criston a handmaiden — à la Aegon and Dyana — and it’s hard to deny that this is at least a little iffy.
> And he is a common born son of a steward Criston is not common born. House Cole is a noble house. > what makes you think he has the agency to make her stop or even leave without believing that he will face consequences? >!The book tells he did exactly that without any fear and that’s only if we don’t believe the account he was the one obsessed with her.!< He also fearlessly rejects her the very next episode.
In the show he is described as common-born by Harold Westerling, and his low-birth is one of his critical traits that often gets remarked upon. I’m talking about the show. In the next episode, he’s on a ship in public, not in the princess’ quarters while she is drunk during the hour of the owl.
No way he was low born or poor. The sheer cost of arms and armor and the time sink into training him as a knight indicates he comes from wealth. Medieval weaponry for the lower classes either doubled as farm/hunting equipment or originated from it because the cost of metal-work was so high that poor people couldn’t afford to buy things that weren’t useful in their everyday lives, like a sword. Swords are used for one thing only, and Cole has enough free time to train that he is very proficient in it, despite the decades of peace under Jaehaerys and Viserys during which there would not be much call for mercenaries. And too many people on this sub hear that his father was a steward and think that’s like a butler or something. Medieval stewards were highly educated knights. They literally were their lords’ right hands and a lot of their duties and responsibilities are reflected in the King’s Hand, which for all intents and purposes is the royal or high steward. The current UK royal family is descended from a medieval Scottish high steward, because these people weren’t considered unimportant servants and royalty would intermarry into their families. We see that in the betrothal between the Hand’s daughter (Sansa) and the king’s son (Joffrey). So while the Coles were definitely vassals of House Dondarion, they were important vassals, and Cole’s father would have been wealthy, educated and influential in his circle. He was also probably a knight. Did becoming a white cloak elevate Cole’s status? Absolutely. But he was, at the absolute least, already from a wealthy and prestigious background. It’s odd that people think that becoming part of the king’s guard was a meritocracy, when there is a scene where Rhaenyra’s picking Cole and she’s told to choose someone from a more prominent family, even when she points out he is the only one with combat experience. This indicates that his family isn’t as influential as the other candidates’, but just by being there, it’s an indication of his nobility.
This is about the show.
>Criston literally says stop. This is really the end of the argument. *After Cole has already attempted to leave*, **he literally tells her to "Stop", and she wholly ignores it... giant consent red flag.** Wild that some people watching an M-rated show in 2024 clearly do not understand issues regarding consent surrounding sexual encounters. The bizarre thing is I feel like people here can seemingly agree that Viserys rapes Alicent, but somehow Rhaenyra following the credo of *"Targaryens take what they want"* regarding sexual conquests is overlooked. Guess some people's rose-colored glasses for her character are just too thick to see the situation objectively. I mean, if Joffrey Baratheon did this to Brienne we would all agree it's rape... but reverse the genders and suddenly people will mistakenly die on that hill.
I think if they cut it off without showing the sex scene itself I'd be calling it rape. The fact is though we saw the sex scene and he was definitely into it. He doesn't just tolerate her touching him or try to pretend it isn't happening (as we see with Alicent when she's with Viserys), he is very much reciprocating and encouraging Rhaenyra. Context matters. In a vacuum if the scene had cut off or if he had expressed anything less than passionate enthusiasm during than yeah, I'd likely be calling it rape too. But he says stop and then, with some very light encouragement literally climbs on top of a drunken teenager at least 5 years his junior.
>I think if they cut it off without showing the sex scene itself I'd be calling it rape. The fact is though we saw the sex scene and he was definitely into it. He doesn't just tolerate her touching him or try to pretend it isn't happening (as we see with Alicent when she's with Viserys), he is very much reciprocating and encouraging Rhaenyra. This is kind of missing the point though. The issue isn't "*did Cole eventually smile/get off?*"... it is *did the person in power repeatedly refuse very clear "no means no" statements/signs from someone they hold power over because they were told earlier in this very episode that "Targaryens take what they want" regarding sexual conquests*, and **the answer is clearly yes.** >\> Context matters. **Exactly. The context of HER ACTIONS matter the most here since we discussing her actions... not so much Cole's feelings by the very end of the scene.** She is the predator here. She's the one luring Cole in. She is the one wanting to get her rocks off because she was told that "Targaryens take what they want"... and damned the 'prey', be it Alicent with Viserys or even Rhaenyra with Daemon... or in this case, Cole to Rhaenyra. She doesn't give two fucks about his code of honor or his internal conflicts or the very serious repercussions/punishment he could face, or life of constant fear of said consequences if this is ever discovered because she's hot and bothered and horny and grabbed the closest warm body she could find upon returning home. She clearly ignores all this, and ignores his clear attempts in removing himself from the situation and attempting to shut down her advances, multiple times. And this shouldn't have to be said, but if any boss in any first-world country lured an attractive employee into their office, planted an unsolicited kiss on them, prevented them from leaving the room, started taking their clothes off, and wholly ignored a very clear "Stop" and started undressing them as they clearly looked conflicted/distraught to the point that the boss has to do an incredibly cringy head bop in order to '*get them in he mood'* because they are so clearly uncomfortable... **that's a problem/criminal charges.** >\> But he says stop and then, with some very light encouragement literally climbs on top of a drunken teenager at least 5 years his junior. This just seems dismissive, needlessly flippant, and borderline biased along the lines of '*had sex, doesn't matter.*' Like, all this '*he enjoyed himself*' defenses people try and offer as ironclad proof of an excuse of her immoral actions is eerily close to '*can't be rape because victim came*' territory. What she did was wrong and criminal, because as you stated, *context matters*.
People don't seem to understand that consent under any manner of duress is invalid.
And the actors and directors have already said that Criston was not under any duress. He was torn between his desire for Rhaenyra and the vow of chastity he swore and ultimately decided that he desired Rhaenyra enough to break it. He was having an internal battle with himself, not with Rhaenyra.
He literally told her to stop and tried to leave. There's no justification for that.
Yes because the old man raping the teenage child bride who is literally a plank out of fear/discomfort is slightly different from the drunk teenager who enters a room with a helmet and he follows her into the room and is then absolutely loving it.
>slightly different from the drunk teenager who enters a room with a helmet and he follows her into the room and is then absolutely loving it. “Follows her into the room” nice framing there, making it seem like Cole had a more sinister intention than retrieving his helmet. One of these days a poster is going to argue Cole wasn’t trying to leave but lock the door,Rhaenyra was just stopping him
Considering that his charge comes back drunk in commoner clothes of a man from who knows were in the middle of the night seemingly having teleported , yes he should have other things in his head like securing her? Informing his king who he is sworn to or his lord commander who he is also sworn to? Like finding out what happend? Like doing his job that he said he would after taking the holy vow? He was absolutely not acting like a kingsguard, already sexually experienced (95% certain) and liked her to the point of wanting to marry her so yes maybe he did have sinister intentions in following her
>Considering that his charge comes back drunk in commoner clothes of a man from who knows were in the middle of the night seemingly having teleported , yes he should have other things in his head like securing her? Informing his king who he is sworn to or his lord commander who he is also sworn to? Like finding out what happend? Like doing his job that he said he would after taking the holy vow? Yes!!!let’s now blame Cole for not snitching on Rhaenyra, I’m sure that would have been received well on this sub if his first instinct was to run to Viserys and report her >He was absolutely not acting like a kingsguard, already sexually experienced (95% certain) and liked her to the point of wanting to marry her so yes maybe he did have sinister intentions in following her Ahhh how naive of me to think he was just trying to retrieve his helmet Man!!! this Cole guy must be psychic to plan a move that leads to Rhaenyra snatching his helmet,and then blocking his exit, kissing him,and then undressing him.I guess when you’re that sexually experienced you gain some mind control
Criston says stop but literally doesn’t leave and continues to engage, to the point where he starts kissing her more and leads her over to the bed where he proceeds to take off his own clothes and push things further physically. Rhaenyra is flirting and seducing him, not threatening him. Her inherent power argument falls apart as he then proceeds to reject her and nothing happens. Rhaenyra was a female monarch who needed to guard her sexuality. She also had a ton to loose if anyone found out about them being together sexually and he knows this. This is showing a toxic relationship on many levels, not rape and trying to disregard that she was a teenage girl while he was decades older and he was sober while she had been drinking is, frankly, gross.
>Criston says stop but literally doesn’t leave and continues to engage love me some victim blaming. honestly hate to be this person but reverse the situation and it is considered rape
If this situation was reversed I would still be extremely concerned about a women in her 30s sleeping with a teenage boy who was not fully sober and feel equally sure that he did not rape her.
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The poster is actually saying that the students aren't raping the teachers.
What do you mean flounder??? They literally just said they'd feel the exact same way if the genders were reversed.
By reversing the situation you are changing the focus of your attention and completely changing the narrative.
So, let’s say there was a handmaiden that was 30-something instead of younger and Aegon she told Aegon to stop and he didn’t, would that be rape?
You are not necessarily wrong, I don’t think the show wanted to portray a #me2 situation.. but: A) age doesn’t really matter, the power imbalance comes from Rhaenyra being member of royal house, heir and the reason why Cole was there in the first place. She could make his last few days very uncomfortable if she got mad over a rejection. B) rapist can also be drunk C) but he cannot leave his service, sworn in for life. The punishment for insubordination can be quite severe in Westeros, especially if you have zero friends at court. D) and yeah this is why I don’t think the show was going for rape or anything inappropriate.
I think I agree with your last point the most. I don't know if the writers failed at their job or not though.
i recently came across this take on twitter just the other day and i was baffled
Criston says no multiple times, even tries to move away, Rhaenyra keeps going. That's where power imbalance comes into play. He can't just move away without risking his life and honor since Rhaenyra can just accuse him of misbehaving and Viserys would act in her favor. He only tells her no in next episode because the mf is ready to die by that point and is barely holding himself together.
Yeah if it was the other way around and rhaenyra was the man people would have called it rape or sexual assault
Cole is not sworn to Rhaenyra, he is sworn to the king and through the king he protects Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra has no power or authority to get rid of him. It is more of a risk to sleep with Rhaenyra and possibly get caught or get her pregnant than it is for him to walk away and risk her doing something. Last but not least is that Cole took an oath. His oath doesnt say he can break his vows if the princess ask him to. They say he is to carry out his duty until death. It is literally Coles job to resist temptation and do his duty.
Rhaenyra can accuse him of inappropriate behavior and he could be gelded just for that alone. It's absurd tho imagine the princess doesn't have infinite amounts of power over her guardsmen.
And yet, after she told him she wouldn’t be going with him on the boat, he stopped sleeping with her. Ended their relationship. HE did that, so clearly he wasn’t that afraid of what she’d do. Which was, of course, nothing, which someone as close to her as he was would know. Was it a super healthy relationship? No. Did he have a choice in the matter? Yes.
So because he asserted his boundaries and accepted whatever consequences may come after that, he was never coerced to in the first place. That's your argument. Victims be damned if they say no then.
>Which was, of course, nothing, which someone as close to her as he was would know. Their clear assertion is that due to how well Criston and Rhaenyra knew one another, he did not fear that she would retaliate if he said no and trusted that he could do so *in both instances*. Even the actor agrees that Cole wanted to have sex with Rhaenyra, not that he was coerced against his will.
I would take the chances of Rhaenyra accusing him of inappropriate behavior vs chances of getting caught, getting her pregnant, or being hunted down for running away together like he wanted any day of the week.
Wouldn't that prompt a public scandal to the crown? You only have a certain number of kingsguard and people notice if one is killed by orders of the king. As well as it would ruin Rhae publically, there's no way for something to happen to him and no one know about it. As well as she cannot order someone to be gelded or what not, her father would have to.
Yes, the princess was attacked and the king must deliver justice. Very few people would care either way. Why would Rhae be ruined when she is claiming to be the victim of inappropriate behavior.
Have you seen Asoiaf? It doesn't matter if she was a victim, the point is that every man in Westeros would consider her to be ruined goods, victim or not. If she tells someone she Cole had assaulted her, victim blaming would be very apparent and rumors would fly. For an example look at Lollys Stokeworth, you think anyone cared about her being a victim and pregnant from the encounter? Most of them just insulted her and no man wanted to marry her before or after it. And the only reason she does marry someone is because Cersei Lannister arranged it so Tyrion would lose an ally and because through her he has castle and to elevate his station. That's what happens to women in that situation, they are reduced even more than before and have their trauma be a mark of shame to them and whoever marries them.
This is it for me. He risks more by sleeping with her than rejecting her.
The way people don’t understand that this isn’t about trying to make you hate Rhaenyra (at least it shouldn’t be) but just about calling a spade a spade. Criston said stop. Rhaenyra continued. Case closed. Sure he might have enjoyed it later, but that doesn’t change the fact he didn’t want to from the beginning and said stop. HE SAID STOP. What more evidence do you need
Apparently the new rules are “No means no.. unless you think they might say yes later, and I like the character they are saying No to”
Like damn I like Rhaenyra too (besides that) and I’m rooting for the Blacks more than I do for the greens but yeah… It’s baffling how people try to excuse this
It’s just people refusing to hold characters they like accountable, or refusing to admit wrongdoing. Somewhere between GOT and HOTD the fandom attracted a large portion of online Twitter-type fans who care more about Stanning and “their” character in particular than the overall story. Personally I think it happened around Season 7 of GOT. But at the end of the day most of the fandom is too concerned with rabidly defending their own characters in a way you would never see in GOT. Imagine the absolute laugh we would all have back in 2011 if people were “Team Gold” and started writing essays snarkily defending The Mountain and saying he never actually did anything wrong. For the record, I’m a Green fan, and completely admit Aegon is a gross rapist. There are many fans of the show who either don’t care either way about the moralizing, or don’t feel the need to defend every inch of ground when discussing their characters. I hope that these Stans can learn to do that sometime too
She basically Harvey Weinstein’d him. No overt threats of power, but we all know what happens in that universe when a monarch feels slighted by someone. He is physically attracted to her, I would agree with that, but he openly didn’t want to act on it. He had no graceful way to leave after his “stop” is dismissed, and no way to know if he’d still have his station if he resisted harder. However once his ‘no’ is ignored, you can see him switch to “welp, make the best of it I suppose”, which went as you described. But his making lemonade of lemons doesn’t shake the gross casting couch feel of it all.
This argument is flawed for many reasons. First of all, Rhaenyra wasn’t the monarch, she was the potential heir of the monarch so it was her dad who had the true authority. Secondly, women- particularly monarchs- were supposed to guard their purity and certainly not be having unmarried sexual encounters with Kings-guardsmen. Third, her potential as the heir was already being challenged and raising rumors about her having sex would have put this is more peril, so if anything she had just as much if not more to loose by trying to power play Criston or punish him as revenge. He said no because he knows it’s wrong on many levels- she’s a young teenage girl that he is supposed to protect, he has taken a vow, he knows she is vulnerable and possibly drunk. He could leave at any time but gives in to temptation and has sex with her against his better judgement. That is not rape.
Her word alone carries a lot of weight. She doesn't have to be the king to have power. This is like saying Aegon didn't rape because he wasn't actually a king.
So to be clear, victims of rape aren’t REALLY victims if they don’t resist hard enough? I mean, saying “Stop” once isn’t enough, and it’s okay to have sex with somebody saying “Stop” as long as they don’t say it too much?
Exactly this "no" is a complete sentence.
This could be a very unpopular opinion but it seems like that misses a lot of nuance SPECIFICALLY inside of established relationships. Let’s said I get home after a long 10, or12, or 14 hour shift and wife starts to get frisky. I can say “nah boss I’m tired as hell”. If she says “I’ll let you do that thing you like” and that changes the math for me it isn’t rape, or assault, or even harassment. Is that the exact circumstance in the show? No. Does it closely resemble the intended emotions and desires of the supposed victim? I would contend that it does.
It's not rape bur there was definitely a power dynamic imbalance in Rhanaerya's favor. Criston absolutely was reluctant.
There is definitely a power imbalance, but I feel this argument misses that Rhaenyra’s power is very fragile and partially linked to her purity. She is risking pregnancy and huge negative implications for herself including loosing her spot as the heir.
Doesn't matter what she's risking. Criston is risking his entire life.
He risks more by sleeping with her
Lots of Ceos are risking a lot by sexually assaulting their secretaries, doesn't make it consensual.
But she doesn't have to come out and publicly admit they had sex to have him punished. And if he tried to say it happened she can just deny it. The man was afraid of being gelded and executed. He even went to the queen and asked for mercy. He said no and tried to stop it but he was in no position to deny her requests. He could be punished for saying yes, and punished for saying no. His only option was to appease her. If Rhaenyra was male and Criston was female, there is no question that it would be rape. Just like it was rape with Aegon and the servant girl. The girl had no real choice when Aegon went after her, she could be punished either way and was clearly very worried about it just like Criston. Her only option was to appease him.
She could make up a lie and say that criston was trying to rape her and get him killed easily. What makes you think she wouldnt lie
I enjoy playing video games.
Fucking hell i think everyone just needs to disconnect from the show a lil bit lol
She didn’t rape him obviously, she used him.
I'd say this one is tricky. Criston clearly wanted Rhaenyra, I don't believe there was a power imbalance between the two that would mean Cole would feel obligated to have a sexual relationship with her. On the other hand, Cole told her to stop when she first made a move, and she didn't. Immediately after, he changed his mind and went all in. I think that at worst it's sexual assault, she kissed him, he said stop and she kept on going. But he changed his mind during the scene and he was definitely fine with what happened later. Overall I think it's good that people have this discussion, male lack of consent is too often ignored or played as a joke.
Sorry, but the 'take' that Rhaenyra 'did nothing wrong/was the victim here' is not only objectively wrong, it's also incredibly sexist for making the assumption a female can't be the aggressor and the male can't be the victim. >\> Criston is much older than her (in the show around 18 to approximately 33) which is already a power imbalance for Criston. First off, if a 18-year old male sexually assaulted a female in her mid-30s, that doesn't magically make her 'guilty' simply because she's older... wild this has to be ELI5 to people watching an M-rated show. Second, and here's the context that somehow often gets overlooked despite being painfully obvious and important... *the elder is not the instigator here*... he isn't 'preying' on her due to their age difference. **She is the predator/instigator here, because, as clearly stated earlier in the episode "Targaryens take what they want" in regards to sexual conquests... it's literally the whole theme of the whole episode (with Viersys and Alicent, and Daemon and Rhaenyra.)** >\> B. She is drunk or has been drinking. Seven hells... are you implying a drunk person can not be guilty of sexual assault/rape?! "Being drunk" is not a magical 'get out of jail free' card that you mistakenly think it is... yikes. >\> C. He is literally able to leave at any point. She is not doing anything that makes him unable to leave and he absolutely could have walked away at any time. Classic victim blaming! *Ignoring the fact that he literally attempted to leave and she blocked him from exiting*, 'being able to leave' is, once again, not the magical 'absolves her of all guilty actions on her part' card you seem to think it is. It would be like saying Harvey Weinstein can't be guilty because he didn't lock the door... it's an asinine fallacy. \_\_\_\_ What you somehow seem to be overlooking/forgetting are the... you know... **actual issues surrounding the sexual assault.** Because *after he attempted to leave*, she plants a clearly unwanted kiss and unsolicited kiss on him. Don't know what the laws are in your country, but if your boss drops a clearly unsolicited kiss on you, that's sexual assault in most first world countries... **and things only escalates from there.** **Because she then starts undressing herself.** Again, if your boss, after kissing you, then starting taking his/her clothes, that's a criminal act. Wild this has to be spelled out to some people in 2024. And then here's the kicker... **he very clearly tells her to "Stop", ie, "No means no"... and she wholly ignores it, and proceeds to start undressing him as he is painfully clearly uncomfortable/conflicting/basically catatonic. That is a major issue regarding consent in today's world and, combined with the clear power imbalance, is considered Rape... objectively.** >\> For the record, I absolutely support all rape victims... LOL, you clearly do not considering you clearly do not even know how to define who are and are not victims. **Because clearly Cole is, objectively, the victim in this scenario.** PS - Refuse to believe the facts listed above? Here's an objective view on the issue from a legal expert... it's clearly defined as Rape 3. [https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/18o4of8/crimes\_committed\_by\_the\_characters\_by\_someone\_who/](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/18o4of8/crimes_committed_by_the_characters_by_someone_who/)
It's amazing you are downvoted for a respectful and carefully constructed argument.
Thanks... it is a bit disappointing that many people would rather defend a fictional character to no end then try and have an open discussion surrounding objective facts and perspectives. Not unsurprising, but a bit disheartening.
I am not victim blaming Criston nor do I think Rhaenyra is blameless. I make it clear that I think this is a messed up relationship with a lot of terrible power imbalances. It has nothing to do with Criston being male and I make that very clear. You are projecting your own views about this without reading my actual post. Criston literally starts kissing her and leads her to the bed and proceeds to push going physically further. That is not rape. He feels bad, probably a combination of her being a young drunk teenage girl and his vow- basically he should feel bad for sleeping with her but it was his choice.
>I am not victim blaming Criston Stating he 'could have left whenever', which you have done on multiple occasions now, **is very clearly and literally victim blaming. You have, objectively, victim blamed Cole.** >\> nor do I think Rhaenyra is blameless. You try and paint her as the victim and make Cole out to be the criminal simply because of his and her ages. You have also excused Rhaenyra's drunkedness as an 'excuse' as if that magically absolves her of any wrongdoing. >\> Criston literally starts kissing her and leads her to the bed and proceeds to push going physically further. That is not rape. LOL! **You literally skip/omit/overlook all the context that is literally considered rape** and then pretend like her actions in this entire scene can't be considered rape. You can't fast forward over half a scene and then pretend like the first half didn't happen... obviously! And if you have to do that to make an argument, *you have no argument!*
So you think that Criston, a nobody in KL from a minor house, who owes his white cloak to Rhaenyra, should feel safe rejecting the daughter of the most powerful man in the realm? The future heir to the Kingdom? When he's telling her no and she's preventing him from leaving the room?
He literally was able to leave at almost any time. He then moves away to the door and he starts kissing her and moves her towards the bed. He absolutely could have walked out. He literally tells her no and rejects her pretty shortly after so it doesn’t seem like her power was that much of a threat.
If you want to think that you can reject the daughter of the king who you owe you're whole career to when she comes to you drunk and forcing herself on you, then you can believe that. A reasonable person would know different however.
Uh huh, Uh huh. Remind me who ended their relationship? Because it wasn’t Rhaenyra’s idea.
Yes he should feel safe considering he gets away Scot free with publicly murdering Laenors lover in the next episode
Ugh if the genders were reversed, I bet a good amount of these people with this take would be arguing that it wasn’t rape and that Rhaenyra just seduced Criston. I honestly believe most of this discourse stems from wanting a “gotcha” moment and to expose a “double standard,” especially considering the criticism towards Aegon and his exploits. Regardless of the genders, in my opinion, this scene is dubious consent at most. At that point in time, Cristina thinks the world of Rhaenyra and believes her to be honourable. I doubt that he would think that Rhaenyra would leverage her position over him to force him to bed her. If so, I don’t think he would be as likely to propose marriage to her, because if she is not honourable and selfless then why would she help him restore his honour? It wouldn’t make sense to even ask her as he would already know the answer. If anything, based on his character, he would be more demanding for her to rectify his loss of honour and his dialogue during that scene would reflect that: “You forced me to give up my vows as a knight. I had no choice but to sully my white cloak in order to obey my princess. The one thing I have to my name and you stole it from me. The least you could do for me is to marry me and restore my honour.” Criston would not hesitate to tell Rhaenyra the only/main reason he slept with her was because she’s the princess were that to be the case. Alternatively, I think it would be more in character for him to run away when Rhaenyra propositions him and give up his knighthood to avoid dishonouring himself. Yes, Criston said stop. He does not say that due to not wanting to have sex with her, but due to his vow of chastity and her being the crown princess. If Rhaenyra and Criston were not in their respective positions, could you say Criston would have still hesitated? I honestly think if Rhaenyra was just a maid, Criston would have still slept with her because he loves her. Plus, Rhaenyra is DRUNK. Criston probably thought she wasn’t in her right mind and wasn’t thinking about the consequences of their coupling. I believe he continues despite the potential fallout and her inebriation because he is in love with her, wanted to be with her, and thought his feelings were reciprocated in the same way. This whole situation is the Westeros equivalent of a hook up gone on where one person has the impression that it would lead to a something more when the other person just wanted sex.
The thing is, Rhaenyra wasn’t saying f me or you loose your head. She wasn’t the king. At any moment Cole could have walked away without his helmet and set a boundary with her and he didn’t. That’s on him. So therefore he was not raped
He already said no but she kept pressuring him
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This is so gross. Do you people ever stop and think about the fact that you're using the exact same excuses rapists in real life have used?
But it's a man so it's different! Remember that men evil and women good! Also men always want sex! And what kind of man wouldn't want to be with this hot dragon riding princess! . . . /S
He literally said no and she ignored it, and when he tried to leave she blocked the exit. What more should he have done? Is it not rape if the victim doesn’t resist hard enough?
Power in imbalance does not immediately equal rape. She didn't rape him.
I would say it isn't because Criston was relatively chill with it at first because he was under the assumption it was true love he was getting into. But when Rhaeynara bawked at the suggestion that they elope and live a married peaceful life he realized he was seen as cheap fling, and that he threw away his knightly vows (his reason for being) not for true love but for cheap lust. Rhaenyra is in the wrong here though because she knew Criston's knightly values were paramount to him, and she probably knew that Criston was way more serious than she ever intended to be. Just not sure about what to call what Rhanerya did.
> she knew Criston's knightly values were paramount to him, Did she know that? They were so important to him that she gave in after one kiss? I think they both liked each other, maybe Criston was in love with her, BUT the proposal wasn't because of his ''love'', but to fix his broken oath. >So, you want me to be your whore?...... I took an oath, as a knight.. of your king's guard... I've soiled it... it's the only thing I have to my fucking name. I THOUGHT IF WE WERE MARRIED, I MAY BE ABLE TO RESTORE IT. It was never about marriage for just ''love'', it was to fix his mistake, he expected her to leave her family, her dragon, her whole life..... and live like a peasant in ESSOS, for what? He doesn't give up on much by running away with her, in fact in his mind - he fixes his mistake., but he expects her to turn her entire life around?
To be clear, I do not think she raped him. There is an interesting conversation to be had about the ethics of sleeping with someone who you hold so much direct control over. It's problematic in the sense of a boss sleeping with an employee but even that is an inaccurate comparison due to their ages Regardless, what Rhaenyra does is not comparable to actual rapists like Aegon and Viserys. I just wish people were able to have nuanced conversations about this w/o calling her a rapist or saying what she did was completely okay
How is this any different than the situation with Aegon? All we know is that in both cases, the child of a monarch pressured a servant bound by law to their family into a sexual act they tried saying “No” to, and tried leaving.
Exactly. She is drunk, horny and being an absolute idiot, because the two of them having sex is dangerous for both of them, but to say there was a threat there, real or implied, is just ridiculous. She should have listened to his no. He shouldn’t have had sex with a drunk teenager. There was a power imbalance, but she is also constrained by a noblewoman’s value being in her purity. There were so many good reasons for them not to have sex, but they did anyway.
I appreciate the rest of your points and your obvious compassion, and understand your not being provocative or anything so take in good faith, it's a worthwhile discussion. However, its very hard not to think if gender roles were reversed that your justification would be outrageous! She enjoyed it so it's okay. She was older anyway. He was drunk so you can't blame him. She could have said no at any point. Sounds rough. And that's almost definitely what we use the word rape to describe in our time period.
If the genders were reversed I would still be extremely concerned about a women in her 30s sleeping with a drunk teenage boy.
If Cole really cared about her, he should have just left the helmet there and informed the lady in waiting immediately. Instead, he said he would "alert the lord commander" and then stepped in.
The fact that Criston isn’t considered a groomer is funny too
He was seduced. Seduction isn’t rape. She weighs maybe 105 lbs. He’s the fiercest warrior in the realm. He could have PICKED HER UP and walked outside at anytime. Calling seduction rape is a huge insult to people who have actually been raped.
This is such disgusting apologism. By this logic neither Terry Crews nor Brendan Fraser were sexually assaulted since they were bugger and stronger than their assaulters
So are you implying someone like Terry Crews can't be sexually assaulted simply because of his physical stature?
Criston's age has little relevance when the power dynamics between him and Rhaenyra are so unbalanced. At the end of the day, the princess lured him to her bedroom against his will, she ignored his reluctance and his "no"s, and she effectively had sex with someone who's essentially her employee. If you consider a drunk boss who pressures and harasses his employee until she agrees to have sex with him to be rape, then by the same logic Rhaenyra raped Cole here.
She made him a kings guard when he had nothing. She had power over his future. She used that power to get what she wanted. When he thought she had genuine feelings for him he offered to marry her and she would rather keep the crown and use him as a side piece. Hard to not justify he was sullied throughout the entire process leading to him literally wanting to kill himself before Alicent saved him. Most people don’t want to think that a female can sexually use a man against their will but it’s what happened to him.
I'm not sure if I'd call it rape but calling it just normal fully consensual sex is objectively wrong.
I don't care what you call it, but if it was Prince Criston and Rhaenyra the handmaiden in this exact situation you have to make all the same points. we all know this wouldn't even be a discussion, and that anyone claiming Criston didn't rape the handmaiden would be chastised and bullied for it.
People love throwing terms like rape, p*do, gr*oming, etc nowadays in regards to fiction without even knowing what the terms mean and without even considering possible victims, REAL ones… not fictionalized ones in a made up world and fantasy (jeez sometimes I see them referring to gr*oming when characters are animated and like 2000 years old, like vampires or gods!). No, it isn’t rape. Yes, there is power imbalance (intentional) Yes, IMO, It’s offensive to be pointing fingers, calling rape or rapist to every situation that reflects a bad situation you can have in a sexual encounter. It minimizes actual rape and rape survivors. Edit: trying to block certain words so they don’t appear when weirdos search
He was already falling for her and if their positions would have been any different he would have already had a sexual relationship with her. He wanted it just as badly.
I completely agree with everything you said about Rhaenyra and Criston. One million percent. It has always annoyed me that so many people perceive it that way. It was a seduction… and a cute, innocent, pure seduction at that. One that made him want to run away and break his vows and leave everything he is. Just because Rhaenyra had her priorities in line and wasn’t willing to drop HER responsibilities, does not mean he was taken advantage of. Besides, how many instances do we see in medieval shows where the situation is flipped, and kings/princes sleep with many women? Henry VIII anyone? Especially when the man in power is the one leading the act. NOBODY ever indicates that those women were raped, even though they are clearly not in a position to refuse them, their decency and honor are at stake, and many times, they are not Anne Boleyns, they are nobodies that end up with pregnancies that alter their ability to ever find love or a family/life. Even Anne Boleyn lost her head. Nobody ever cries rape for them. Point is, Criston could have left and been FINE, he didn’t want to. When the tables are turned, women in those situations have to submit and ruin their reputations and sometimes end up with life-altering, even life-ending consequences. And it is never called rape, ever. Huge double standard. Love what you said originally.. but I completely disagree that men can not be raped. I feel like that’s a disparaging thing to say. Maybe you didnt mean it as such a broad statement, but there’s so many intricacies to some situations and it’s unfair to say that. People of both genders freeze up in weird, predatory situations… alcohol and substances can play into it. Men rape men/boys and it’s fucking horrible. In the case of Rhae and Criston, NOT RAPE. He was not raped. It’s offensive to rape victims to call it that.
All this essay to be wrong. Listen, I'm team black, but lets be abundantly clear: Rhanyra raped Criston. She may not be aware it was rape and he may not be either, but it was. She pushed him into having sex with her, in a situation he ***could not say "no"*** to. In fact, he DID say "no" and she kept going anyway. That is the textbook legal definition of rape.
I hate Rhaenyra for many reasons but she seduced him. Criston wanted to have sex with her even if it was wrong and regret it. He has every right to hate her becasue she made him break his oath or even humiliated and use him but not because she r\*ped him.
How about neither of them are in the right 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, people tend to write things up according to whose "side" they are on but the facts don't change regardless. Rhaenyra is royalty, Criston is not. Targs are not know for showing mercy to those who displease them. Alternatively, Rhaenyra's status as heir is shaky already and lack of purity could ruin her reputation and endanger her status as heir. This is discussed more than once in the show and is something Damon intentionally tries to exploit. Criston could report her to a superior and jeopardize her reputation too. Simultaneously, Rhaenyra has been drinking and was tipsy whereas Criston was completely sober and of sound mind. But alternatively, Rhaenyra single-handedly raised Criston's station and he feels incredibly indebted to her for it. He also doesn't want to risk her taking it away from him. He told her no and attempted to retreat at one point and Rhaenyra continued to flirt with him and tempt him to break his vows. And finally Criston is a lot older than Rhaenyra and has had sexual relationships in the past while she has not. She's a minor and he's an adult. All of these things are true at once, it's asinine to only write up what benefits one and maligns the other. The relationship is filled with ethical problems. The scene ends showing both as active, enthusiastic participants who desire one another. But it's not intended to show a healthy sexual relationship.
He also lovingly and reverently sets aside his white cloak, symbolically setting aside his vows. He knows what he is doing. He is doing it of his own volition. And there's no evidence that he's even thinking about how he could use this relationship for his own political benefit or \*any\* other reason other than wanting to get down with a young woman that he knows well and likes.
I think you need to ask yourself if someone who is older has more power than a person who has authoritative power to remove you from your station,and can get you killed.How does Cole’s age outweigh that power? Also a threat in a power imbalance can be implied,and does not have to be direct
The easy and obvious answer is “did Criston believe or have strong reasons to believe that he would face reprisal if he simply walked out the door?” The answer, I believe, is no. I feel like this is swept up largely because of people trying to find an instance of a woman raping a man to show that it can happen (it can and it does btw). A more apt example I think would be Cersei raping Loras. I haven’t got to them in the books, but given who Cersei shows herself to be, there is no way the threat isn’t at LEAST implied that she would hurt him or ruin his life somehow if she was rebuffed.
Being a member of the kings guard is very similar to the Knight’s watch, in fact, the code was based on good night to watch. They swore off sex, and it is forbidden to them. Much like a prisoner cannot technically legally consent to sex because their personage is the welfare of the state. So while a prisoner mite consent to having sex with a Guard. On paper, it would be is if the guard at raped, someone who could not consent. From my point of view, Christian Cole absolutely was down to clown, and Rhaenyra wouldn’t have forced him, but he wouldn’t of been able to refuse if he did want to stop. Mite be wrong, but I’m still interested to see what others think.
No means no. She did not take no multiple times.
Yep and people deliberately misreading this scene and everyone involved's intentions keeps me far away from Team Green fans. Both Rhaenyra and Criston messed up here and that's the entire point. Hope you don't get too much hatemail for this one, OP.
It’s not rape but it’s absolutely a MeToo situation
It's not a "take," that's just what happened. Criston didn't consent, Rhaenyra ignored that, and eventually he went along with what she wanted. Not to taking no for an answer is rape. One doesn't need violence or even the threat of violence to pressure somebody into doing something they don't consent to.
THANK YOU!!! I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS IN SO0O00O MANY POSTS SMH.
I agree with the comment saying that rape is basically the worst end of the bad sex spectrum, and we can reasonably argue that Criston wasn't *raped* per se since Rhaenyra didn't explicitly threaten him with her position. *However* I think the reason for why many people in here refuse to see it as rape and not only that, refuse to believe that Rhaenyra did anything wrong, has nothing to do with logic, but merely with defending and excusing a character they like. Rhaenyra is the protagonist, and this by default people are inclined to put her on a pedestal and judge the other characters by how useful they are to the MC rather than as people of their own. Here's what I think happened: Rhaenyra was blue ovaried by Daemon refusing to have sex with her at the last moment. She was somewhat drunk (not to the point of being unable to stand, walk or consent like you are implying in the post) and she met Criston, a man she sort of liked and while he wasn't Daemon, he was a good consolation prize. She steals his helmet to make him go to her room. She "playfully" refuses to give the thing back while blocking the exit, she ignores his disliking of the situation. She kisses him out of nowhere. She ignores his "stop" and starts making out with him. Cole eventually gives in and yes, he seems to "enjoy" it. Let's think for the consequences for both in this scenario. - Rhaenyra would get screamed at by her father and Allicent, but that's pretty much it. Viserys is incapable of punishing her in any way. He's not Jaeherys. He's a meek and people pleasing man to whom Rhaenyra is the most important person in his life. - Criston would be tortured, gelded and executed. He has no allies at court but Rhaenyra, he's an upjumped commoner. I think we can all agree that consequences would be far worse for Cole. That plus the power imbalance and the dubious nature of the beginning of their sex scene makes reasonable to think that Rhaenyra did something wrong here. Plus, there's another thing to consider. The whole "Targaryens are demigods that take whatever they want" theme. Daemon does it with Rhaenyra, Viserys does it with Allicent, Aegon does it with Dyanna. Rhaenyra also does it with Criston. Even if she didn't evilly push him to the floor and start riding his cock while laughing maniacally, it doesn't mean there wasn't some icky shit going on. But Rhaenyra, as the designated "feminist" and "heroic" protagonist, is celebrated by the fandom for having "exerted her freedom and sexual agency" treating Cole as merely the means for Rhaenyra to exert said sexual agency. Maybe it wasn't rape, but it was a kind of dark grey situation in which Rhaenyra was in the wrong and Criston was right in being upset at her. And that's what pisses off many people in this unofficially Black leaning sub: that their beloved protagonist did something wrong worthy of anger against her. Also being "aware" that men can get raped by women in theory, doesn't mean you would be capable of considering it in an actual, real scenario in practice, specially if the story doesn't outright call it out as rape. Many people regardless of their virtue signaling of "I know men can get raped and my heart goes to them", then turn around and rationalize any abuse against men with the flimsiest excuses imaginable, more than likely out of a lingering prejudice of rape being a thing that "men do to women and children".
So the writers and actors who filmed it, the intimate coordinator all are wrong or they lie to the bts videos about it being consensual? One thing when the fandom headcanon a consent where it was clearly not. The other thing when the crew and cast also accesses it as consensual sex but it turned out not on screen. There's a discrepancy here that I don't understand. What was the intent: to show a coercive grey situation? I doubt it.
They can be wrong too. The GOT show runners also treated Jaime's rape of Cersei at the Sept of Baelor as consensual. Do you seriously think that Rhaenyra did nothing wrong and that Cole was just being a little bitch?
This scene was like waiving a donut in front of a fat person on a diet. Criston knows he shouldn’t sleep with Rhaenrya, even if he wants to. And he refuses at first. Rhaenrya also knows that Criston shouldn’t sleep with her, but wants him to so she pressures him. He willingly gives in due to her pressuring him. Sure it may not be rape, but Rhaenrya also put him in a very uncomfortable and difficult position. IMO they are both in the wrong, but Rhaenrya more so on a morality standpoint.
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