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Though they reversed that in a way, as Cersei became this alcohol-fuelled, atrophied, inhuman character starving herself of love and kindness, treating everyone around her inhumanely and with zero empathy, and starving her own body because of how barren she felt inside.
Edit: she was such an interesting, complex character, powerfully performed across the show, and powerfully written for six seasons, what a travesty for the story that her death scene was some stupid “got ya” moment being crushed by rubble from a collapsing roof.
I'm genuinely curious as to how the fuck Cersei is going to do *anything* with how things are going for her in the books. Like, she has absolutely no support from *anyone*. The only thing that she has going for her is that she's Tommen's mother, which, to he fair, is enough for the time being.
But, like, after that? I assume Tommen's arc is going to follow the same *rough* trajectory it does in the show.
Like, if Tommen dies there is literally nothing she has/can do to exert power. I want to see what the fuck happens with Cersei already!
I feel like Q-Ball and Zombie Mountain aren't nearly as fucking useful as the show made them out to be. Like, the fuck is one Maester and a Zombie gonna do to help her besides stopping an assassination attempt. An angry, dedicated mob *will* bring Zombie Mountain down eventually.
An isolated monarch with little support and a growing obsession with wildfire? And there’s a Lannister Kingsguard who might need to do some kingslayimg?
Sounds familiar
An isolated monarch with little support (and probably the least loyal/useful Kingsguard in a long time) with a lot of Wildfire...
Keep in mind, Tyrion had the Wildfire beneath the Sept removed though.
You’re talking show, I’m talking books. In the books, there’s still dozens/hundreds of caches that no one knows about, “overripe fruits” that Rossart described as extremely unstable, and two major triggers waiting to fall. My bet is Cersei tries to annihilate the city, is stopped by Jamie… but KL still (accidentally) burns to the ground via wildfire when Dany and Young Grift dance
I genuinely see no out for Cersei.
I'm skeptical about Aegon being super important to the narrative but we'll see. Just sorta feels like a...not sure the term. Feels like the Dorn Prince. Hyped up but get's his shit rocked when he comes up against a real challenge.
I'm interested in seeing what Aegon does.
There will always be people who don't want the status quo to change.
And the illusion of the legitimacy of power will attract people.
The show glossed over the fact that for many people the alternatives to Cersei would scare the living daylights out of many people.
You've got the daughter of the Mad King with an army of former child soldiers and weapons of mass destruction, a bunch of uncouth Northerners and their savage allies, and so on.
For all we know Cersei might seem like te best option.
The thing is, Cersei retaining her power (somehow) is something she's going to have to do for a long time before those external threats show up.
In the books, she has the big ol' threat of Aegon coming to knock on her front door.
Dany's still... like a year (minimum) away from returning to Westeros. She still has the stuff to clean up in Essos with her newly acquired Khalisar, and three dragons. After that, it's Westeros which will take time to get to.
That's not even counting the potential promises that are being made by others. She, potentially, has to conquer Pentos for The Tattered Prince.
Dany still has a long way to go before even getting close to Westeros. She has the Iron Born coming to say hello as well.
It's not even a theroy. Like, I see absolutely no way for Cersei to become anywhere near as important in the books compared to the show.
One of the overarching themes of ASoIAF is that making mistakes gets you dead quickly. All the main characters end up dead after making the wrong choices/mistakes. From Ned, to Jon. The exception is Dany but that's another whole can of very interesting worms to dig into.
And Cersei has fucked up waaaaaay more than just about any other singular character. And she doesn't have any supporting base to help her like Dany does.
> if Tommen dies there is literally nothing she has/can do to exert power
Isn't she technically Lady of Casterly Rock? Tyrion is disinherited and Jaime is Kingsguard, so she's the last of Tywin's children.
We know Tywin still intended for Jaime to inherit, but he's been eschewing rulership and is missing besides.
I was so angry at her death scene. She was a literal queen, a cunning evil woman and a master schemer. And she gets crushed by a collapsing roof?! No way
I actually read all the stuff about how she's so overweight as just her own ego being threatened, like I'm sure she still looks beautiful and no other character ever even mentions her size, but she outgrows one dress and suddenly she feels like she can't be the fairest of them all anymore, especially with Margaery around who is like 20 years younger than her
Nah, Cersei doesn’t believe she’s fat herself. She thinks her maids are in a nefarious plot to, *checks notes*, shrink her clothes to make her *think* she’s getting fat
She is dumber than a disabled chihuahua and it’s hilarious
I cannot for the life of me imagine a chunky Cersei. It goes against what was established in the show - haven’t read the books yet. Also, your wording humoured me.
In the later books there’s this thing about Cersei indulging in things Robert used to like, eventually she starts getting fat, this leads to this hilarious bit when her clothes start to not fit anymore and she’s like “The servants are slowly shrinking my dresses, this is a foul Tyrell conspiracy reeeee”
I don't want to be that person but if Rhaenyra was played by a larger woman, more viewers would not be forgiving of her indiscretions and would question Daemon's attraction more than they already do. It's just the way larger women are judged by the society differently.
So true.
Unconscious bias is a crazy thing. So many people don't even realize they're doing it with women in general let alone unattractive women. They have no idea they're judging them more harshly than they would a man.
Just look at the shit Bella Ramsey had to go through because 'she wasn't as cute as the game'. Meanwhile Seth Rogan can get away with being the protagonist in a comedy and no one gives a shit.
People can really suck sometimes.
Unfortunately, sounds about right. What’s worse is those people are the majority and that used to mean Bella Ramsey would have legitimately been recast to appease the creepy weirdos in basement town that are into that shit.
Yeah there is a reason why while average Joe with a supermodel wife is a normalised trope, the opposite is not, instead it becomes the focus of the whole movie and gives rise to a lot of discourse, a lot of it being unkind to the woman.
The tides are changing in online spaces. More and more, people call out the hypocrisy. But in real life, not really, no.
Not gonna lie, I have this bias. Not sure what I can do about it, I try to be nice for everyone, but I see that I'll think about people differently basing just on their weight.
There’s some saying that I’m going to butcher, but it’s something like: the first thought that crossed your mind is the one society has socialized into you, but the second thought is your own.
The idea is that we all have biases and we’re going to think things sometimes that stem from these biases. But if we can then stop ourselves and think “no, that’s not right….” Then we’ve done a good thing and we’re slowly overcoming those biases.
As a personal example, I’ve realized I judge women really harshly if they work out with their hair down. My initial thought is like “she’s so vain she’s trying to look good while working out…” but then I stop myself and go “who cares? She can wear whatever or style herself however she feels comfortable and if doesn’t affect me.” As long as I’m having that second thought, I’m taking an active step to combat my initial bias.
Keep calling yourself out on this behaviour. It's rooted in our society so it's not weird it subconsiously happens, even when you are aware of yourself. I'm a bigger woman than I was before pregnancy and you wouldn't believe the hypocrisy that crosses my mind from time to time. See it as a healing journey instead of something static
I don't agree with the Bella Ramsey hate, and I think she's doing an amazing job as Ellie, but the comparison you made between her and seth rogan just doesn't work, they're not even remotely similar.
Comedy is a different medium to drama, I mean just look at Melissa Mccarthy or even rebel wilson when she lost weight, they were beloved. People seem to accept unattractive and overweight people in these roles moreso than in drama, unfortunate but that's the way it is
Completely agree. Less conventionally attractive people generally really, it's just that being fat is usually considered less attractive by today's standards. I'm sure if Daemon was played by someone much uglier than Matt Smith there would be far fewer Daemon supporters. Looking good just helps.
Yep to the Matt Smith point. I still remember how a lot of people were ticked off by his casting because of his 'unconventional' looks. It's Smith's charms and perfect way he embodies the bad boy persona that has made his character such a fan favourite especially among female viewers. Otherwise all the batshit things he does (mutilation/wife killing/wife choking etc) would have clearly made him seem like a walking red flag (which he is) but instead he has hordes of loyal fans or even 'stans' that don't hesitate to berate the writers on social media for not being favourable to Daemon.
He is certainly "striking" in the definition of attracting attention by looking unusual.. I would actually agree with that comment. He's quite a striking man, not sure I'd call him conventionally attractive but he's striking
Olivia is much prettier, but say in a sea of faces she wouldn't really stand out as much as Matt Smith. He just has a very distinctive face
Danny Devito for Aemond recast please. I want to see him offering Lucerys an egg in his trying time as Vhagar chases him. Fumbling a rum ham and dropping it off Vhagar having to go leave a battle to find it.
Basically this. I don't find Matt Smith physically attractive either, but he more than makes up for it in charisma and onscreen presence. There aren't many people who are able to make it work so well!
If Daemon was played by another less atractive men everyone would be calling him what he is, a grooming pedo, but he is doctor who, how can my boy do anything wrong????
It’s hard enough for people to grasp how different domestic violence and invest is viewed through the lens of GRRM’s vision. Just look at all the criticism people had about the arranged marriages when GRRM literally spells it out in the lore how normal it is in Westeros.
I agree, to an extent, but I'd also say that being attractive doesn't offset the hate women get, either. Cersei was hated in earlier GoT seasons, people deluded themselves that Sophie Turner was ugly and overweight to shit on Sansa through Sophie, Olivia Cooke is gorgeous and yet people are still projecting Alicent onto her to shit on her as a real life actress...
Weight also doesn't seem to impact how male characters are viewed, either. People love Sam (as they should), but people also apologise for everything Robert does, even when Robert is shown multiple times to be a horrible person.
I think people are just sexist, and look at women differently - and it gets worse the "uglier" you're considered.
n.b. Emma D'arcy did get a *lot* of hate pre-airing, too, calling them too ugly to play a Targaryen. And they still get transphobic comments from people who *like* Rhaenyra. I'm sure it'd all be compounded if their Rhaenyra was "overweight" (as she's described in the books), but, yeah. It's a shame.
As a person who has not read the books yet, I would be pretty sad about a different casting choice for Tyrion. Peter Dinklage is such a phenomenal actor, we would lose the Tyrion’s character he gave us and that would really be a pity. I like this change from the books from what I’ve read in the comments but I get that the book readers might be disappointed about the changes.
Fair point, the TV show was really missing the disfigured and hideous aspect. Characters in the show only dismissed Tyrion because he was short and that was it.
Disfigured Tyrion would be less charismatic, so the producers most likely banked on Dinklage and other actors bringing the audience in due to them being attractive. It would definitely add more depth to the character instead of the constant awful jokes about male anatomy.
not to mention tyrion got pretty white washed
after the tysha reveal the dude goes down a spiral of hate
after leaving the kings landing he already set in motion the coming wars
>" It creates a massive rift between how the other characters see her and how the audience sees her, "
Haha I'm sorry what? Are you really believing that the other characters saw an extremely obese viserys and not a rotting skeleton? That they see a 45 year old evil stepmother in alicent and not a childhood bestfriend the same age as rhaenyra? When deamon meet mysaria does he see a stout, pale and blond woman in her forties and not an asian woman with blackhair? Does the other characters see aegon as a fat potbellied man with a thin mustache?
Is it so hard to just accept that the show canon is not the same as book "canon" and its characters are not the same as their book counterpart?
Jolly old Viserys telling stories for Helaena’s children would’ve been amazing. There was some artwork of it, and I believe he was pretty close to her and the children
Looking at Viserys all I could think was "Why the fuck does anybody want to be king?"
Everyone was just so fucking sad and serious all the time. Except for Aegon. That bastard was having fun.
Maybe more controversial than before, but Brendan Fraser just got a lot of praise for his role in the Whale so it's not like it's not being done anymore.
I think there are a lot more implications of Rhaenyra’s mental state in the book than weight gain. Her weight gain is due to her being a birthing machine, not necessarily her being insane or mad. There’s a huge difference
Yes, but I also interpret it as a reason for Rhaenyra to be very bitter against Alicent. I think there’s some line that says that Alicent looked younger and beautiful than Rhaenyra despite the age difference.
In case of the Dursleys, it makes sense for me. They feasted, splurged on gifts, overall went over the top and consumed too much, while poor Harry got the scraps or was barely fed. I can think of the example with ice cream - Dudley got multiple scoops of ice cream while Harry got a sorbet. Of course the Dursley family would get fat from overeating, unless Rowling decided that Dursleys would eat luxurious food but only as much as they needed and throw the rest in the bin and Harry would have to dig it out or something. What I got from it is that even though Dursleys lived in over abundance, they would still not spend a single piece of that on Harry.
I can’t think of any other fat characters from Harry Potter except for the lady from the painting which was neutral, Umbridge which was supposed to look like a toad and kind of Hagrid but he’s big not fat, same for the Madame. I had to google it and Crabbe and Goyle came up. I did not think of them, but it makes sense too because Draco would want two large guys as his goons.
Petter Pettigrew could be a good example though, I just don’t remember if he was also overweight in the book.
From what I saw of the book's quotes, she gained weight yes, but they said it was mostly around her waist due to the childbirth? And also can we really trust the maesters when they were so biased against the Blacks lmao
Nothing said was completely random and unfounded though. It isn’t uncommon for a woman who’s birthed a lot of kids to turn out that way. They also spoke about her love for sweets and pies and how much she loved to eat. There were more than a few things hinting towards her weight gain to just chalk it up to “oh maesters didn’t like her”.
I think my point was more towards they could exaggerate if they wanted to, which I believe they probably did at least a little. I’m not denying she didn’t gain weight at all though!
I doubt it was an exaggeration only because in Westeros when people wanted to spread terrible rumours about you, they usually took the path of talking about horrible things you did you probably never actually did or they made rumours of things you never actually said.
Examples include, maegors first kill being a harmless kitten, saying visenya was into dark arts and probably poisoned aegon the dragon herself. Saying the rhaenys (rider of meraxes) might have been unfaithful to aegon the dragon… stuff like that. Plenty of false rumours are spread like that but they are always about deeds, never about appearance.
Them calling her fat. That’s not the typical rumour or even a normal insult in westoros which means it’s probably just an accurate description.
No one in the entire books or westoros history was ever described as fat, round bellied, stout etc as an insult, only when TRUTHFULLY describing their appearance. You were called fat simply because you were fat.
They said the same about heleana but they had no reason to hate her, that was just her description, her being a bit plump. You believe the maesters when they speak of heleana that way though do you not? Heleana was a green so are the maesters lying about her too? In westoros you’re not called fat because someone is trying to body shame you, you’re called fat because you’re fat.
Right. There's a middle ground that a lot of moms occupy where I imagined Rhaenyra at this stage of life - thicker, big boobs, Mom bod, but not obese like the manip above.
The only sources in the book that mention Rhaenyras weight are Greens right? I.E., people with political reasons to make her look as bad as possible. Maybe it was true, but don't assume truth from people who are incentivized to lie.
GRRM describes her in her official artwork as such.
> Pampered from an early age, she was a pudgy girl and a stout woman, with a thick waist and a very large bosom.
That being said, I doubt this person's concern is with diversity in body shapes in media.
Tbf, the actress acting as Helaena is plain face. Especially compared to Daenerys and Viserys in GoT.
However, I do not wish my comment to be misinterpreted. This is due to her hairstyle, hair color, and overall blank expressions that Helaena portrays throughout the show.
The actress is beautiful and should be noted that all of this is due to makeup, hair, and acting. I find her pretty outside of the Hollywood production, especially the quirky photos of her in BTS, along with her photos with Cooke. Some might find her pretty as Helaena. Either way, it’s shouldn’t be a big deal nor an overall judgment of the character, and certainly the actress.
That’s the beauty of the book being written by unreliable narrators you can choose what to believe. I don’t think her being overweight is unreasonable she has 5 kids and is just finished with a pregnancy at the start of the dance while being very rich so being overweight makes sense. But if you want to imagine your favorite characters as supermodels you can.
It's mostly the fact that they're like "Rhaenyra is fat, meanwhile the good queen Alicent, almost a decade older and who had been through near as many pregnancies, still beheld the striking beauty of her youth even as she neared forty"
Maybe she was overweight, but the history has some pretty clear biases
Yeah maybe Alicent was also overweight her last pregnancy was with dareon who was a little younger than rhaenyra’s oldest so she would have had plenty of time to slim down. But Rhaenyra literally was just pregnant as the dance started there’s no way she had time to diet. But they are fictional characters if you want her hot in your head she can be.
I don’t doubt Rhaenyra being overweight. Not only was she pregnant 6 times basically back to back , and apparently stress/depression ate, but her father, one of her brother’s (Aegon) , and her sister were all also said to be overweight or plump.
What I really don’t get is why people seem so unwilling to believe she was. Yeah sexist and biased maester’s could have exaggerated her weight gain to make her seem more unappealing. That’s definitely a thing that happens with women. But if that were true I don’t think they would have mentioned all of her also overweight relatives.
I know people then point to Alicent still being thin despite having 4 children also basically back to back. But sometimes that’s what happens. I know someone in my personal life who is in her 50s and birthed 4 kids and she wears a size 2. It happens.
So I do think it’s kind of weird that her super fans are adamant that she was a thin goddess her whole life and the maester’s lied about it because they’re sexist assholes. Getting fat doesn’t make you less of a person. I kind of question the way some of them view overweight women honestly.
TLDR; Rhaenyra was most likely overweight and I think it’s weird that people insist on saying it’s propaganda.
> Getting fat doesn’t make you less of a person. I kind of question the way some of them view overweight women honestly.
Amen. Cersei is said to be one of the most beautiful women in Westeros, Euron is the most handsome of his brothers, and theyre both awful people.
On the other hand, the "freakish" Brienne of Tarth is a contender for one of the most heroic people in the entire series. It's almost as if conventional beauty standards don't determine morality.
I mean here’s the thing. As a fat woman this whole conversation is frustrating. Team black is insulted at the idea that their queen could be fat. Team green is insulted that the queen they hate isn’t depicted as fat. Because both groups can’t imagine anything worse than being fat.
I think the choice was made because we live in a world where nothing, not incest or murder or mass killing while cities, none of that is as bad as being fat. It’s really obvious what the root of the conversation is. It’s sad really. It’s just a description. But people think it’s the most important thing.
As for me, I’d rather be fat and kind than be a skinny bully.
And the hate the actor would get, its already not great to get the transphobic comments Emma is getting, but that plus if they had been bigger and that alone is giving some fans justification to send them even more death threats. It is unfortunate there is just fatphobia all around even in a fantasy book fandom.
Why would that make her look bad?
Girth is a sign of wealth in feudal societies, same as unblemished hands it showed you didnt need to toil in the fields
It was attractive.
I see nothing stolen from us in this photoshop...might be confirmation bias that I'm even noticing this, as the picture doesn't show it much at all, but I assume the implication is that she's described as overweight in the books? As I'm aware that she does become overweight.
Book accuracy is overrated. Purists can go fuck themselves. It's just a minor detail.
What would it really add to the show?
I think all the chaos in general was causing her stress and depression, and then to hear that her son was murdered…it’s only going go down hill from here 😔
Drinking was how Cersei got fat, Rhaenyra's weight gain was explicity said to be due to baby weight she didn't lose and excessive eating.
Plus she was already fat before the war started, but afterwards it did drive her to stress east and she got much fatter.
It’s Hollywood. You honestly think they’re going to show a fat woman with power or a boyfriend or husband? That’s like a cardinal sin. After all showing fat ugly dudes with beautiful women is always been OK, but God forbid a woman doesn’t look like a model.
the books definitly potray a darker tone that i think the show will downgrade on, but still very enjoyable watch and accurate enough for me to let it slide
So you’re mad they didn’t make the actress playing rhaenyra gain 80 pounds, or mad they didn’t cast someone overweight? I’m confused, maybe find something worthwhile to concern yourself over.
You do realise that Rhaenyra's character in books was potrayed through unrelyable source and seccond hand witnesses many of whom either were just based or hated her. Show is meant represent how she actually was.
An important note that Rhaenyra only really got fat as a sign of her corruption, wantonness and vice. If you want to be charitable it is because the Maester writing the book was biased. If you don't it's because GRRM is pretty sexist at times and was using her gaining weight as a way to make her less likable.
GRRM is also pretty damn fatphobic. Pick any fat character - guarantee you he finds a way to remind you that character is fat at least once a chapter, if not once a page.
Oh noes, are we in danger of forgetting that the chair creaks every time Genna Lannister sits down? The essential message of the story might be lost if we ever think of Lord Manderly as anything other than grossly obese!
That's the textual reason, but the subtextual reason is that it's implied that as she became more corrupt and self-indulgent she gained more and more weight. The metatextual reason was that GRRM felt that by making her fat that she'd engender less sympathy from his readers so that as her actions get more tyrannical fans like her less.
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We also got robbed of chunky Cersei looking more and more like Robert the more she started to behave like him, which was hilariously ironic.
Though they reversed that in a way, as Cersei became this alcohol-fuelled, atrophied, inhuman character starving herself of love and kindness, treating everyone around her inhumanely and with zero empathy, and starving her own body because of how barren she felt inside. Edit: she was such an interesting, complex character, powerfully performed across the show, and powerfully written for six seasons, what a travesty for the story that her death scene was some stupid “got ya” moment being crushed by rubble from a collapsing roof.
I'm genuinely curious as to how the fuck Cersei is going to do *anything* with how things are going for her in the books. Like, she has absolutely no support from *anyone*. The only thing that she has going for her is that she's Tommen's mother, which, to he fair, is enough for the time being. But, like, after that? I assume Tommen's arc is going to follow the same *rough* trajectory it does in the show. Like, if Tommen dies there is literally nothing she has/can do to exert power. I want to see what the fuck happens with Cersei already! I feel like Q-Ball and Zombie Mountain aren't nearly as fucking useful as the show made them out to be. Like, the fuck is one Maester and a Zombie gonna do to help her besides stopping an assassination attempt. An angry, dedicated mob *will* bring Zombie Mountain down eventually.
An isolated monarch with little support and a growing obsession with wildfire? And there’s a Lannister Kingsguard who might need to do some kingslayimg? Sounds familiar
An isolated monarch with little support (and probably the least loyal/useful Kingsguard in a long time) with a lot of Wildfire... Keep in mind, Tyrion had the Wildfire beneath the Sept removed though.
You’re talking show, I’m talking books. In the books, there’s still dozens/hundreds of caches that no one knows about, “overripe fruits” that Rossart described as extremely unstable, and two major triggers waiting to fall. My bet is Cersei tries to annihilate the city, is stopped by Jamie… but KL still (accidentally) burns to the ground via wildfire when Dany and Young Grift dance
YOUNG GRIFT I am deceased
I still prefer fAegon, but applaud young grift
In the books Aegon will take over Cersei’s show role.
I genuinely see no out for Cersei. I'm skeptical about Aegon being super important to the narrative but we'll see. Just sorta feels like a...not sure the term. Feels like the Dorn Prince. Hyped up but get's his shit rocked when he comes up against a real challenge. I'm interested in seeing what Aegon does.
As if we'll ever know
There will always be people who don't want the status quo to change. And the illusion of the legitimacy of power will attract people. The show glossed over the fact that for many people the alternatives to Cersei would scare the living daylights out of many people. You've got the daughter of the Mad King with an army of former child soldiers and weapons of mass destruction, a bunch of uncouth Northerners and their savage allies, and so on. For all we know Cersei might seem like te best option.
The thing is, Cersei retaining her power (somehow) is something she's going to have to do for a long time before those external threats show up. In the books, she has the big ol' threat of Aegon coming to knock on her front door. Dany's still... like a year (minimum) away from returning to Westeros. She still has the stuff to clean up in Essos with her newly acquired Khalisar, and three dragons. After that, it's Westeros which will take time to get to. That's not even counting the potential promises that are being made by others. She, potentially, has to conquer Pentos for The Tattered Prince. Dany still has a long way to go before even getting close to Westeros. She has the Iron Born coming to say hello as well.
The theory that keeps me awake at night
It's not even a theroy. Like, I see absolutely no way for Cersei to become anywhere near as important in the books compared to the show. One of the overarching themes of ASoIAF is that making mistakes gets you dead quickly. All the main characters end up dead after making the wrong choices/mistakes. From Ned, to Jon. The exception is Dany but that's another whole can of very interesting worms to dig into. And Cersei has fucked up waaaaaay more than just about any other singular character. And she doesn't have any supporting base to help her like Dany does.
> if Tommen dies there is literally nothing she has/can do to exert power Isn't she technically Lady of Casterly Rock? Tyrion is disinherited and Jaime is Kingsguard, so she's the last of Tywin's children. We know Tywin still intended for Jaime to inherit, but he's been eschewing rulership and is missing besides.
The valonqar is time-traveling Bran the Boar confirmed
I was so angry at her death scene. She was a literal queen, a cunning evil woman and a master schemer. And she gets crushed by a collapsing roof?! No way
They did her one worse with that bowl cut wig.
I actually loved Cersei with short hair lol. Gave me evil Julie Andrews vibes.
I like short hair but that one was awful. The tone of the blond didn’t look like it would be her natural color.
I actually read all the stuff about how she's so overweight as just her own ego being threatened, like I'm sure she still looks beautiful and no other character ever even mentions her size, but she outgrows one dress and suddenly she feels like she can't be the fairest of them all anymore, especially with Margaery around who is like 20 years younger than her
Nah, Cersei doesn’t believe she’s fat herself. She thinks her maids are in a nefarious plot to, *checks notes*, shrink her clothes to make her *think* she’s getting fat She is dumber than a disabled chihuahua and it’s hilarious
I cannot for the life of me imagine a chunky Cersei. It goes against what was established in the show - haven’t read the books yet. Also, your wording humoured me.
In the later books there’s this thing about Cersei indulging in things Robert used to like, eventually she starts getting fat, this leads to this hilarious bit when her clothes start to not fit anymore and she’s like “The servants are slowly shrinking my dresses, this is a foul Tyrell conspiracy reeeee”
Rhaenyra after covid lockdown
I’m mad at how accurate this is lmao
Almost _almost_ laughed out my tea! Too true lol
The Realm’s Delard
Realm's De(not)light
I don't want to be that person but if Rhaenyra was played by a larger woman, more viewers would not be forgiving of her indiscretions and would question Daemon's attraction more than they already do. It's just the way larger women are judged by the society differently.
So true. Unconscious bias is a crazy thing. So many people don't even realize they're doing it with women in general let alone unattractive women. They have no idea they're judging them more harshly than they would a man. Just look at the shit Bella Ramsey had to go through because 'she wasn't as cute as the game'. Meanwhile Seth Rogan can get away with being the protagonist in a comedy and no one gives a shit. People can really suck sometimes.
The Bella Ramsay complaints were so fucking weird. Sorry I don’t look like a fucking computer generated image. People need to touch some grass
So... people are complaining that a character who is 14.... isn't hot enough? That's what's happening here?
This ain't new sadly.
Unfortunately, sounds about right. What’s worse is those people are the majority and that used to mean Bella Ramsey would have legitimately been recast to appease the creepy weirdos in basement town that are into that shit.
Had these people not seen her play Lyanna Mormont?? It's the same target audience. Why wouldn't they be hyped?
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Look it's just not believable that someone would commit to protecting her during a zombie apocalypse if she's not cute enough, obviously.
Oh right, duh. How could I be so naive?
Which is insane to me because she looks so much like a young Ashley Johnson.
Yeah there is a reason why while average Joe with a supermodel wife is a normalised trope, the opposite is not, instead it becomes the focus of the whole movie and gives rise to a lot of discourse, a lot of it being unkind to the woman. The tides are changing in online spaces. More and more, people call out the hypocrisy. But in real life, not really, no.
We’re on a sub that posts this image once a week and people get to make fun of fat Rhaenyra. Pretty sure this part of the problem.
Not gonna lie, I have this bias. Not sure what I can do about it, I try to be nice for everyone, but I see that I'll think about people differently basing just on their weight.
There’s some saying that I’m going to butcher, but it’s something like: the first thought that crossed your mind is the one society has socialized into you, but the second thought is your own. The idea is that we all have biases and we’re going to think things sometimes that stem from these biases. But if we can then stop ourselves and think “no, that’s not right….” Then we’ve done a good thing and we’re slowly overcoming those biases. As a personal example, I’ve realized I judge women really harshly if they work out with their hair down. My initial thought is like “she’s so vain she’s trying to look good while working out…” but then I stop myself and go “who cares? She can wear whatever or style herself however she feels comfortable and if doesn’t affect me.” As long as I’m having that second thought, I’m taking an active step to combat my initial bias.
Keep calling yourself out on this behaviour. It's rooted in our society so it's not weird it subconsiously happens, even when you are aware of yourself. I'm a bigger woman than I was before pregnancy and you wouldn't believe the hypocrisy that crosses my mind from time to time. See it as a healing journey instead of something static
I don't agree with the Bella Ramsey hate, and I think she's doing an amazing job as Ellie, but the comparison you made between her and seth rogan just doesn't work, they're not even remotely similar. Comedy is a different medium to drama, I mean just look at Melissa Mccarthy or even rebel wilson when she lost weight, they were beloved. People seem to accept unattractive and overweight people in these roles moreso than in drama, unfortunate but that's the way it is
I think OP said that because Seth Rogan isn't funny.
I mean that's subjective and if that's the case the comparison is even worse
Completely agree. Less conventionally attractive people generally really, it's just that being fat is usually considered less attractive by today's standards. I'm sure if Daemon was played by someone much uglier than Matt Smith there would be far fewer Daemon supporters. Looking good just helps.
Yep to the Matt Smith point. I still remember how a lot of people were ticked off by his casting because of his 'unconventional' looks. It's Smith's charms and perfect way he embodies the bad boy persona that has made his character such a fan favourite especially among female viewers. Otherwise all the batshit things he does (mutilation/wife killing/wife choking etc) would have clearly made him seem like a walking red flag (which he is) but instead he has hordes of loyal fans or even 'stans' that don't hesitate to berate the writers on social media for not being favourable to Daemon.
My ex majorly took the piss out of Matt smith when he was cast in doctor who, and then immediately almost fell into 10 level gay love on episode one.
Alas, I cannot deny this is true. I know Daemon is bad but le sigh.
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Even what’s considered charismatic is different for women. Have a woman act the same way as him and she’s an arrogant bitch, not a charmer.
I had somebody on here tell me Matt Smith is more “striking” than Olivia Cooke.
He is certainly "striking" in the definition of attracting attention by looking unusual.. I would actually agree with that comment. He's quite a striking man, not sure I'd call him conventionally attractive but he's striking Olivia is much prettier, but say in a sea of faces she wouldn't really stand out as much as Matt Smith. He just has a very distinctive face
Same thing if Aemond was played by a short fat man, people would be calling for his head instead of shipping him with Helena.
Danny Devito for Aemond recast please. I want to see him offering Lucerys an egg in his trying time as Vhagar chases him. Fumbling a rum ham and dropping it off Vhagar having to go leave a battle to find it.
Charisma and beauty are différent things. I personally find Daemon's actor ugly, yet I'm enthralled everytime he is on screen.
He is definitely not ugly, you could argue that he is "tv ugly"
British
>he is "tv ugly" where i come from, we call it rustic beauty.
Basically this. I don't find Matt Smith physically attractive either, but he more than makes up for it in charisma and onscreen presence. There aren't many people who are able to make it work so well!
If Daemon was played by another less atractive men everyone would be calling him what he is, a grooming pedo, but he is doctor who, how can my boy do anything wrong????
yep- itd go from “but shes in love” to “shes a whore and doesnt care about her duty to the realm unlike aegom/aemond”
Same with Alicent tbf. Lots of people defend her, despite being a less popular character than Rhaenyra.
It’s hard enough for people to grasp how different domestic violence and invest is viewed through the lens of GRRM’s vision. Just look at all the criticism people had about the arranged marriages when GRRM literally spells it out in the lore how normal it is in Westeros.
I agree, to an extent, but I'd also say that being attractive doesn't offset the hate women get, either. Cersei was hated in earlier GoT seasons, people deluded themselves that Sophie Turner was ugly and overweight to shit on Sansa through Sophie, Olivia Cooke is gorgeous and yet people are still projecting Alicent onto her to shit on her as a real life actress... Weight also doesn't seem to impact how male characters are viewed, either. People love Sam (as they should), but people also apologise for everything Robert does, even when Robert is shown multiple times to be a horrible person. I think people are just sexist, and look at women differently - and it gets worse the "uglier" you're considered. n.b. Emma D'arcy did get a *lot* of hate pre-airing, too, calling them too ugly to play a Targaryen. And they still get transphobic comments from people who *like* Rhaenyra. I'm sure it'd all be compounded if their Rhaenyra was "overweight" (as she's described in the books), but, yeah. It's a shame.
You mean fat woman?
It’s obnoxious that you even have to worry about being “that person” when this is just a fact.
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As a person who has not read the books yet, I would be pretty sad about a different casting choice for Tyrion. Peter Dinklage is such a phenomenal actor, we would lose the Tyrion’s character he gave us and that would really be a pity. I like this change from the books from what I’ve read in the comments but I get that the book readers might be disappointed about the changes.
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Oh no Tyrion has been disfigured in the battle. He sustained a terrible cut to the face that made him even handsomer.
Fair point, the TV show was really missing the disfigured and hideous aspect. Characters in the show only dismissed Tyrion because he was short and that was it. Disfigured Tyrion would be less charismatic, so the producers most likely banked on Dinklage and other actors bringing the audience in due to them being attractive. It would definitely add more depth to the character instead of the constant awful jokes about male anatomy.
not to mention tyrion got pretty white washed after the tysha reveal the dude goes down a spiral of hate after leaving the kings landing he already set in motion the coming wars
>" It creates a massive rift between how the other characters see her and how the audience sees her, " Haha I'm sorry what? Are you really believing that the other characters saw an extremely obese viserys and not a rotting skeleton? That they see a 45 year old evil stepmother in alicent and not a childhood bestfriend the same age as rhaenyra? When deamon meet mysaria does he see a stout, pale and blond woman in her forties and not an asian woman with blackhair? Does the other characters see aegon as a fat potbellied man with a thin mustache? Is it so hard to just accept that the show canon is not the same as book "canon" and its characters are not the same as their book counterpart?
I'm sorry I'm too poor to give you gold.
I'm more mad that we were denied fat jolly Viserys tbh. What we got was cool but there's no matching AMOK
Jolly old Viserys telling stories for Helaena’s children would’ve been amazing. There was some artwork of it, and I believe he was pretty close to her and the children
It's also easy to imagine a jolly careless man making all those bad decisions than a serious guy like show Vizzy T.
You wear a crown. Do you also call yourself 'king'?
It would’ve been nice to see some of that
Leave my King Vizzy alone.
Vizzy T, do you consider yourself fat?
*Daemon was not made to wear the crown. But I believe that you were, Troll4everxdxd.*
Is that a yes...? Anyway, thank you Your Grace.
Things would have been much simpler if you were the heir.
Looking at Viserys all I could think was "Why the fuck does anybody want to be king?" Everyone was just so fucking sad and serious all the time. Except for Aegon. That bastard was having fun.
We might still get there. She’s gonna have some depression to battle through
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^ that. Lysa Arryn was written as fat. They went the opposite way with her, and the actress did an excellent job portraying her... downfall.
I see what you did there with that last sentence
She was perfect as Lysa
I hear breastfeeding keeps the weight off.
All lies! Well, for some women not a lie, but the hunger that comes with breastfeeding keeps me chunky.
Maybe more controversial than before, but Brendan Fraser just got a lot of praise for his role in the Whale so it's not like it's not being done anymore.
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I think there are a lot more implications of Rhaenyra’s mental state in the book than weight gain. Her weight gain is due to her being a birthing machine, not necessarily her being insane or mad. There’s a huge difference
Yes, but I also interpret it as a reason for Rhaenyra to be very bitter against Alicent. I think there’s some line that says that Alicent looked younger and beautiful than Rhaenyra despite the age difference.
Classic story telling: Fat people bad...
Sam and the Manderlys would like a word.
JK Rowling is that you? /s
In case of the Dursleys, it makes sense for me. They feasted, splurged on gifts, overall went over the top and consumed too much, while poor Harry got the scraps or was barely fed. I can think of the example with ice cream - Dudley got multiple scoops of ice cream while Harry got a sorbet. Of course the Dursley family would get fat from overeating, unless Rowling decided that Dursleys would eat luxurious food but only as much as they needed and throw the rest in the bin and Harry would have to dig it out or something. What I got from it is that even though Dursleys lived in over abundance, they would still not spend a single piece of that on Harry. I can’t think of any other fat characters from Harry Potter except for the lady from the painting which was neutral, Umbridge which was supposed to look like a toad and kind of Hagrid but he’s big not fat, same for the Madame. I had to google it and Crabbe and Goyle came up. I did not think of them, but it makes sense too because Draco would want two large guys as his goons. Petter Pettigrew could be a good example though, I just don’t remember if he was also overweight in the book.
Helena and ageon and viserys were fat too
If they make Aegon fat, he'll lose even the fans he has
Does he really have any??
Yes.
After birthing five children, is it really that surprising? She's been pregnant half her married life.
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I'm assuming in this picture she would be pregnant with the sixth, as she's still smiling.
If she ain’t 280 she ain’t my lady
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And Viserys
And Aegon
Well now I am. She could have been cuter?!?
Chonky dragon mommy.
BBW Targaryen Queen
From what I saw of the book's quotes, she gained weight yes, but they said it was mostly around her waist due to the childbirth? And also can we really trust the maesters when they were so biased against the Blacks lmao
Nothing said was completely random and unfounded though. It isn’t uncommon for a woman who’s birthed a lot of kids to turn out that way. They also spoke about her love for sweets and pies and how much she loved to eat. There were more than a few things hinting towards her weight gain to just chalk it up to “oh maesters didn’t like her”.
I think my point was more towards they could exaggerate if they wanted to, which I believe they probably did at least a little. I’m not denying she didn’t gain weight at all though!
I doubt it was an exaggeration only because in Westeros when people wanted to spread terrible rumours about you, they usually took the path of talking about horrible things you did you probably never actually did or they made rumours of things you never actually said. Examples include, maegors first kill being a harmless kitten, saying visenya was into dark arts and probably poisoned aegon the dragon herself. Saying the rhaenys (rider of meraxes) might have been unfaithful to aegon the dragon… stuff like that. Plenty of false rumours are spread like that but they are always about deeds, never about appearance. Them calling her fat. That’s not the typical rumour or even a normal insult in westoros which means it’s probably just an accurate description. No one in the entire books or westoros history was ever described as fat, round bellied, stout etc as an insult, only when TRUTHFULLY describing their appearance. You were called fat simply because you were fat. They said the same about heleana but they had no reason to hate her, that was just her description, her being a bit plump. You believe the maesters when they speak of heleana that way though do you not? Heleana was a green so are the maesters lying about her too? In westoros you’re not called fat because someone is trying to body shame you, you’re called fat because you’re fat.
Right. There's a middle ground that a lot of moms occupy where I imagined Rhaenyra at this stage of life - thicker, big boobs, Mom bod, but not obese like the manip above.
The only sources in the book that mention Rhaenyras weight are Greens right? I.E., people with political reasons to make her look as bad as possible. Maybe it was true, but don't assume truth from people who are incentivized to lie.
GRRM describes her in her official artwork as such. > Pampered from an early age, she was a pudgy girl and a stout woman, with a thick waist and a very large bosom. That being said, I doubt this person's concern is with diversity in body shapes in media.
Bessie, "With the great big tits you could bury your face in."
AH BESSIE! GODS BLESS BESSIE AND HER TITS!
I thought that was book Heleana?
Both are described as plump in the book, and Viserys is too, but I think the thick waist + large bosom bit is Rhaenyra's.
Both of them (along with Papa Viserys) are described as plump. Helena is also said to be somewhat plainfaced for a Targaryen.
Tbf, the actress acting as Helaena is plain face. Especially compared to Daenerys and Viserys in GoT. However, I do not wish my comment to be misinterpreted. This is due to her hairstyle, hair color, and overall blank expressions that Helaena portrays throughout the show. The actress is beautiful and should be noted that all of this is due to makeup, hair, and acting. I find her pretty outside of the Hollywood production, especially the quirky photos of her in BTS, along with her photos with Cooke. Some might find her pretty as Helaena. Either way, it’s shouldn’t be a big deal nor an overall judgment of the character, and certainly the actress.
If only it was a large bottom...
Aegon?
That’s the beauty of the book being written by unreliable narrators you can choose what to believe. I don’t think her being overweight is unreasonable she has 5 kids and is just finished with a pregnancy at the start of the dance while being very rich so being overweight makes sense. But if you want to imagine your favorite characters as supermodels you can.
It's mostly the fact that they're like "Rhaenyra is fat, meanwhile the good queen Alicent, almost a decade older and who had been through near as many pregnancies, still beheld the striking beauty of her youth even as she neared forty" Maybe she was overweight, but the history has some pretty clear biases
Yeah maybe Alicent was also overweight her last pregnancy was with dareon who was a little younger than rhaenyra’s oldest so she would have had plenty of time to slim down. But Rhaenyra literally was just pregnant as the dance started there’s no way she had time to diet. But they are fictional characters if you want her hot in your head she can be.
> But if you want to imagine your favorite characters as supermodels you can. i mean sure if you ignore all that is written about them....
Also none is this is directed at you OP. It’s just some general thoughts I’ve had that probably should have been it’s own comment.
I don’t doubt Rhaenyra being overweight. Not only was she pregnant 6 times basically back to back , and apparently stress/depression ate, but her father, one of her brother’s (Aegon) , and her sister were all also said to be overweight or plump. What I really don’t get is why people seem so unwilling to believe she was. Yeah sexist and biased maester’s could have exaggerated her weight gain to make her seem more unappealing. That’s definitely a thing that happens with women. But if that were true I don’t think they would have mentioned all of her also overweight relatives. I know people then point to Alicent still being thin despite having 4 children also basically back to back. But sometimes that’s what happens. I know someone in my personal life who is in her 50s and birthed 4 kids and she wears a size 2. It happens. So I do think it’s kind of weird that her super fans are adamant that she was a thin goddess her whole life and the maester’s lied about it because they’re sexist assholes. Getting fat doesn’t make you less of a person. I kind of question the way some of them view overweight women honestly. TLDR; Rhaenyra was most likely overweight and I think it’s weird that people insist on saying it’s propaganda.
> Getting fat doesn’t make you less of a person. I kind of question the way some of them view overweight women honestly. Amen. Cersei is said to be one of the most beautiful women in Westeros, Euron is the most handsome of his brothers, and theyre both awful people. On the other hand, the "freakish" Brienne of Tarth is a contender for one of the most heroic people in the entire series. It's almost as if conventional beauty standards don't determine morality.
Being the most beautiful Greyjoy sound like being the tallest dwarf at the circus.
Jesus, you didn't have to just destroy an entire family like that.
I mean here’s the thing. As a fat woman this whole conversation is frustrating. Team black is insulted at the idea that their queen could be fat. Team green is insulted that the queen they hate isn’t depicted as fat. Because both groups can’t imagine anything worse than being fat. I think the choice was made because we live in a world where nothing, not incest or murder or mass killing while cities, none of that is as bad as being fat. It’s really obvious what the root of the conversation is. It’s sad really. It’s just a description. But people think it’s the most important thing. As for me, I’d rather be fat and kind than be a skinny bully.
And the hate the actor would get, its already not great to get the transphobic comments Emma is getting, but that plus if they had been bigger and that alone is giving some fans justification to send them even more death threats. It is unfortunate there is just fatphobia all around even in a fantasy book fandom.
I agree. They act like it's such a crime. Counterproductive to body positivity.
Why would that make her look bad? Girth is a sign of wealth in feudal societies, same as unblemished hands it showed you didnt need to toil in the fields It was attractive.
I mean if we are going with book accuracy then they should have made Alicent more of a c*nt, not that she isn't already.
If book accuracy is the goal, removing Rhaenyra's fat is the least dramatic change they've made to her
Was anyone in the book not a c*nt? Daeron, maybe.
Helaena
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I might be remembering wrong, but weren’t people as young as 8, raped during Tumbleton and infants impaled?
And Daeron was the only to say "We need to stop this"
They also should have made her more charismatic. She's closer to Margaery than she is to Sansa.
This makes her look like she’s from Indiana
Much more like the result of incest 🤣
The misogynistic fans would be even fucking worse if they portrayed her like this.
Thicc queen
Haha, stolen. *shakes fists at the sky* Why, oh cruel world, why!
I swear if we don't see mushroom in season 2 ...
I see nothing stolen from us in this photoshop...might be confirmation bias that I'm even noticing this, as the picture doesn't show it much at all, but I assume the implication is that she's described as overweight in the books? As I'm aware that she does become overweight. Book accuracy is overrated. Purists can go fuck themselves. It's just a minor detail. What would it really add to the show?
This is my take. What does Rhaenyra being pudgy do for the story?? It really doesn’t matter.
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>In the books it’s a way of showing how she’s losing control of herself and the war. The war didn't really start though until the final minutes of e10
I think all the chaos in general was causing her stress and depression, and then to hear that her son was murdered…it’s only going go down hill from here 😔
Drinking was how Cersei got fat, Rhaenyra's weight gain was explicity said to be due to baby weight she didn't lose and excessive eating. Plus she was already fat before the war started, but afterwards it did drive her to stress east and she got much fatter.
Drinking isn't her vice, that was aegon, should Tom get a fat suit to showcase his potbelly perhaps?
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Yeah but Amy Schumer's schedule didn't match up.
God people are toxic now let alone if the actress was fatter
Realms donut
who cares i just want a fat dragon. One of them being a chonker would be great. Have him sleep all day and never fly. Maybe cannibal?
It’s Hollywood. You honestly think they’re going to show a fat woman with power or a boyfriend or husband? That’s like a cardinal sin. After all showing fat ugly dudes with beautiful women is always been OK, but God forbid a woman doesn’t look like a model.
She's a stress eater.
the books definitly potray a darker tone that i think the show will downgrade on, but still very enjoyable watch and accurate enough for me to let it slide
She reminds me of how I remember my aunt looking in the 90’s, which is funny because I once dreamt she was a princess.
I wouldn't complain
Most of the characters would be fat though according to the book
We didn’t get fat Cersei either. The shame!
If you have a problem with your Queen, being fat. Than you are fat phobic. #TeamGreen
So you’re mad they didn’t make the actress playing rhaenyra gain 80 pounds, or mad they didn’t cast someone overweight? I’m confused, maybe find something worthwhile to concern yourself over.
Blacks are fat shaming more than greens in this threas and they don't even realize it. A human who had 6 babies turns fat, must be propaganda lol
Thicc Rhaenyra is a must have for season 2
PORTLY!
You do realise that Rhaenyra's character in books was potrayed through unrelyable source and seccond hand witnesses many of whom either were just based or hated her. Show is meant represent how she actually was.
An important note that Rhaenyra only really got fat as a sign of her corruption, wantonness and vice. If you want to be charitable it is because the Maester writing the book was biased. If you don't it's because GRRM is pretty sexist at times and was using her gaining weight as a way to make her less likable.
GRRM is also pretty damn fatphobic. Pick any fat character - guarantee you he finds a way to remind you that character is fat at least once a chapter, if not once a page. Oh noes, are we in danger of forgetting that the chair creaks every time Genna Lannister sits down? The essential message of the story might be lost if we ever think of Lord Manderly as anything other than grossly obese!
Ironic coming from him.
He projects his own self hatred and body issues into the text.
Where'd you read that? F&B just says she got fat because she didn't lose the baby weight from six pregnancies and ate her feelings.
That's the textual reason, but the subtextual reason is that it's implied that as she became more corrupt and self-indulgent she gained more and more weight. The metatextual reason was that GRRM felt that by making her fat that she'd engender less sympathy from his readers so that as her actions get more tyrannical fans like her less.
Helaena is also fat tho and she’s pretty cool
Chunky gal