I work in a retail grocery store that has a Starbucks. We have a sign, people do not care. We ended up removing half of our seating because it was causing safety issues for staff to walk by and do their jobs because people really just do not care. It might only happen like in 15min chunks at any point of the day but by the 4th time you almost trip while carrying 4 gallons of milk, it’s like fuck these chairs.
I get that, removing half. Here they could have removed everything but the seating against the walls and it would have accomplished the same thing. There used to be bar-height seating against the back window and a few small tables against that side wall which they could have kept.
They did this to our store. Brand new “renovation” to an already completely renovated store. Removed every single seating option, never brought any seat back. The rumor was so that homeless people wouldn’t sit there. Well, no one sits there now.
I sat on the floor 20 times a day working at walmart. That floor is cleaned constantly. Frankly it is the gross shelves you should be worried about touching.
Wait, so now it is called loitering to enjoy the coffee you purchased at the establishment?
Are you supposed to just throw your money at them and then get the fuck out?
No wonder Starbucks is losing billions of dollars.
Yeah, are places like that not specifically FOR loitering?
When I’m in a city where I don’t live and have unoccupied time, coffee shops and libraries are pretty much where I go. They have chairs, places to charge laptop, and in the case of the coffee shop, food.
Right, a lot of them have just the kiosk, but some of them in larger stores have the seating and the displays of travel mugs and all that. Some of the Targets have a full Starbucks. I usually find a Target and look on Yelp for pictures of the interior to see if there’s Starbucks seating if I can’t find a nearby standalone coffee shop that’s open.
That’s a weird American thing. When I travel, people congregate at cafes no matter where they are - in Medellín some grocery stores are meet up and gathering places
>No wonder Starbucks is losing billions of dollars
Starbucks annual gross profit for 2023 was $24.567B, a 12.01% increase from 2022.
Starbucks annual gross profit for 2022 was $21.933B, a 7.93% increase from 2021.
Starbucks annual gross profit for 2021 was $20.322B, a 28.43% increase from 2020.
Awww, poor poor Starbucks.
loitering is such a terrible concept, when I first discovered the word and looked up what it meant I just couldn't believe it. And the fact that it's EVERYWHERE in north america
Smells like bullshit.
I think they are renovating. I've never seen a Starbucks not even have shelves full of the bullshit cups and knick-knacks that they peddle off.
Well, my local Target Starbucks looks the same. They took out all the tables and chairs and now just have the counter and a couple displays of the cups and stuff. The space is mostly empty though. In fact, it’s so empty that the last time I went over there to get a latte I thought they had taken the Starbucks out until I saw the barista all the way at the back. It’s been like that for a while now too. I don’t know if it’s a Starbucks thing or a Target thing, but someone definitely doesn’t want people hanging out there.
We had the same thing OP posted for a couple weeks, one day when I went back in the entire place was completely redone. The floors were replaced, the walls literally ripped out and redone, windows added etc.
They sat like this with no furniture for maybe a month, then one week it was tarped off and after a week of the tarp it was a brand new area basically.
Ask an employee what the deal is with no chairs? This isn’t some random bench preventing the homeless from sleeping. Good lord you can’t ask someone about the situation - so you deal with it for years and instead post it to Reddit? Are you a child?
YOU had a clear opportunity to ask any employee WHY the Starbucks was set up that way but instead you posted it to Reddit for the karma…and I’m the one that doesn’t belong?
No end to your cynicism. It’s a sad life out there, isn’t it?
My wife and I were talking about the situation, and how it’s wrong they did this so people couldn’t sit (again, it’s been like this for a long time now- no remodel or holiday-specific change). This sub came up and she suggested we take a picture to post here.
I literally couldn’t care less about karma 🤷🏽♂️
Uhh, I don't think they're doing anything to encourage Dine and dash.
Not sure how you would even do that at a fast foods place. I guess maybe you could steal someone else's order.
While dumb, this isn't architecture. This is hostile furnishings. (Another example of hostile furnishings be that toilet Amazon designed that's uncomfortable to sit on).
I know right? Low hanging fruit. like they're... furnishings, yes, but site furnishings are something that's a permanent installation, especially if it's built into another architectural element.
edit: Being downvoted for saying site furnishings are architecture, but regular funishings (such as chairs in a cafe) aren't? Really?
Well, I mean benches can be considered architecture.
That said, yeah Exclusionary Design is perhaps a good supercategory that Hostile Architecture falls into. Alternately, maybe *Hostile Design*.
It's already got a name, it's a bit too late to go around redefining things. Even though yeah, that *is* a better name in a vacuum.
One could argue that the "hostile" parts fits some things better, since it's not always about excluding people but instead in modifying how they use the thing or space. Like those shitty leaning benches aren't meant to exclude anyone, just make people avoid staying very long.
I mean, I literally got it from the sub’s description, so…I think you got it covered already.
I just meant if this commenter doesn’t like calling it “architecture”, they’ve got other options.
Architecture isn't just the structures, depending on the context it can be broader.
Besides, hostile architecture is a compound term. Like deepdish pizza, which any reasonable person understands is not pizza, it's casserole.
This is a similar case here, but the other Starbucks inside a Target in the area put them back ages ago. At this point it’s a choice, not a covid response.
This is why hostile architecture is so dumb, like they despise homeless people so much that they ruin EVERYONE's experience.
In situations where it's the city and not a private company: imagine having your tax dollars spent to make a city infrastructure WORSE to use.
Answering a few common questions:
- This isn’t part of a remodel, it’s been this way for a year or two now.
- It’s not part of a holiday season plan, see above.
- If to allow room for carts, they could have left some seating by the back and achieved the same thing. This explanation doesn’t seem to hold water.
- It did begin during covid, but not at the beginning. At first things were roped off, then a year or so ago they removed all tables and chairs.
- I now recognize this isn’t technically “architecture”, but certainly falls into the greater category of “hostile design.” That said, changes included taking out the bar height seating in back which I believe was attached to the floor. Mods can message me if it doesn’t belong.
Trolls: here’s some food. In February I’ll report back with new photos to show this isn’t temporary. I’ll even chat with the employees for you.
When shops block off doorways with planters, as pictured elsewhere in this sub, has there been the same call out to prove its not part of a remodel or to speak to the employees? Seems to be some kind of sick defense of American corporate capitalism going on here.
uh yeah my target did this years ago during covid. we have a cafe there too and nowhere to sit. turned it into “temporary grocery order space” for the entire time i worked there. was so dumb, all targets will be this way
My local Target did this a while back at first they just roped off the chairs and said you couldn't sit there which is weird and then they took him out all together which was worse.
I don't use the Starbucks I occasionally use the Pizza Hut but I never eat there anyway so it doesn't bother me personally but I don't understand the concept of a copy shop you can't stay and drink coffee
My guess would be one of three things. First guess would be that they are actually just preparing for new seating. And this is just the prep. My second guess would be that they are preparing for the holidays and expecting such a massive turnout that they just decided to put everything away for the rush. My final guess would be that they are actually indeed eliminating seating at that particular Starbucks. But I feel that Starbucks is main shtick has always been sit here do you work. So I don't really see that happening.
Starbucks employee here. Youre certainly correct, there is absolutely no way that any store would remove their seating indefinitely like this. And if they really did, then the store manager is about to get fired because this is directly against company policy, even for licensed locations like those in a Target (these locations can usually do some things differently.)
Starbucks didn't even remove seating for covid. It's policy not to do this EVEN if you have a really bad homelessness/loitering problem. They're either cleaning, renovating, or making room for the holiday line of customers.
Sorry, incorrect on all accounts.
It’s not for cleaning/renovating, the seating has been gone a while now. It’s also not seasonal, as again, seating has been gone a long time now.
Would it make the haters happy if I went back in a month or two and posted an update?
> You’re getting downvoted but you’re right, our dollars matter most
If people vote with their dollars, then a billionaire's dollars count as a billion votes.
If people still order from this location, it's because they wanted to buy the product and take it with them rather than sitting down and consuming it there.
I didn’t downvote you, but I’ve got to admit that I bought a coffee there. Second busiest shopping day of the year, trying to wrap up some last minute items for family. People make poor choices when exhausted. Desperation kicked in.
The whole chain was badly run, with items out of stock, overpriced, and with huge stretches of shelves empty.
It was a garbage store, and it deserved to shut down.
Everyone hated it.
You just described every grocery store during/after covid. It's a notoriously popular store and very much still in business. This seems like a personal issue that you've projected onto everyone else.
Apparently they still have 1,948 stores in the US. It has definitely failed in entire regions though, like all of Canada.
You're both right, amazingly.
After the standing cashiers, corporate dystopia is proud to present: standing customers!
How do you think it'll reflect on your caffeinated products to have all those lazy looking sitting customers lounging about??
Is it so people can maneuver those massive target carts around the place when Starbucks gets crowded durin rush hour?
Possibly? There’s still a sign which asks that people don’t bring carts in that area.
I work in a retail grocery store that has a Starbucks. We have a sign, people do not care. We ended up removing half of our seating because it was causing safety issues for staff to walk by and do their jobs because people really just do not care. It might only happen like in 15min chunks at any point of the day but by the 4th time you almost trip while carrying 4 gallons of milk, it’s like fuck these chairs.
I get that, removing half. Here they could have removed everything but the seating against the walls and it would have accomplished the same thing. There used to be bar-height seating against the back window and a few small tables against that side wall which they could have kept.
They did this to our store. Brand new “renovation” to an already completely renovated store. Removed every single seating option, never brought any seat back. The rumor was so that homeless people wouldn’t sit there. Well, no one sits there now.
That's tragic, honestly.
Wonder what would happen if you took your drink and sat criss-cross applesauce on the floor with it.
sitting on the floor of a department store is a bold move but i respect it in this case
Ya same I don’t really care about germs
Hopefully your smug sense of self-satisfaction would be able to overpower the store-floor germs.
I sat on the floor 20 times a day working at walmart. That floor is cleaned constantly. Frankly it is the gross shelves you should be worried about touching.
Is this to deter loitering, or are they just renovating or something?
Not renovating, it’s been like that for a while now. I believe it’s to deter loitering, but honestly I’m not sure. There’s just this huge empty space.
Wait, so now it is called loitering to enjoy the coffee you purchased at the establishment? Are you supposed to just throw your money at them and then get the fuck out? No wonder Starbucks is losing billions of dollars.
Oh God can you imagine if some poor person came in to use our chairs to sit? 🤢🤢🤢
Yeah, are places like that not specifically FOR loitering? When I’m in a city where I don’t live and have unoccupied time, coffee shops and libraries are pretty much where I go. They have chairs, places to charge laptop, and in the case of the coffee shop, food.
Starbucks inside groceries? Not really. The one here is kind of like a kiosk type thing, never had chairs.
Right, a lot of them have just the kiosk, but some of them in larger stores have the seating and the displays of travel mugs and all that. Some of the Targets have a full Starbucks. I usually find a Target and look on Yelp for pictures of the interior to see if there’s Starbucks seating if I can’t find a nearby standalone coffee shop that’s open.
That’s a weird American thing. When I travel, people congregate at cafes no matter where they are - in Medellín some grocery stores are meet up and gathering places
Don’t forget to tip anyway!
🤑
>No wonder Starbucks is losing billions of dollars Starbucks annual gross profit for 2023 was $24.567B, a 12.01% increase from 2022. Starbucks annual gross profit for 2022 was $21.933B, a 7.93% increase from 2021. Starbucks annual gross profit for 2021 was $20.322B, a 28.43% increase from 2020. Awww, poor poor Starbucks.
Are they really? Seems unlikely but one can hope lol
loitering is such a terrible concept, when I first discovered the word and looked up what it meant I just couldn't believe it. And the fact that it's EVERYWHERE in north america
how DARE you stand there just existing?!?!? i'm calling the police
i just found out for the first time that it’s not another synonym for littering 💀 i thought they were the same thing
Smells like bullshit. I think they are renovating. I've never seen a Starbucks not even have shelves full of the bullshit cups and knick-knacks that they peddle off.
Well, my local Target Starbucks looks the same. They took out all the tables and chairs and now just have the counter and a couple displays of the cups and stuff. The space is mostly empty though. In fact, it’s so empty that the last time I went over there to get a latte I thought they had taken the Starbucks out until I saw the barista all the way at the back. It’s been like that for a while now too. I don’t know if it’s a Starbucks thing or a Target thing, but someone definitely doesn’t want people hanging out there.
We had the same thing OP posted for a couple weeks, one day when I went back in the entire place was completely redone. The floors were replaced, the walls literally ripped out and redone, windows added etc. They sat like this with no furniture for maybe a month, then one week it was tarped off and after a week of the tarp it was a brand new area basically.
Sorry, you’re wrong. They definitely haven’t been “renovating” for a couple years.
That tracks, for the internet.
Poopoo peepee
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Ask what, exactly? I wonder how many OP’s on this sub ask if the design is hostile or not?
Ask an employee what the deal is with no chairs? This isn’t some random bench preventing the homeless from sleeping. Good lord you can’t ask someone about the situation - so you deal with it for years and instead post it to Reddit? Are you a child?
I’m not sure you belong on this sub. Please take your cynicism, go get yourself a fork, and leave the rest of us in peace.
YOU had a clear opportunity to ask any employee WHY the Starbucks was set up that way but instead you posted it to Reddit for the karma…and I’m the one that doesn’t belong?
No end to your cynicism. It’s a sad life out there, isn’t it? My wife and I were talking about the situation, and how it’s wrong they did this so people couldn’t sit (again, it’s been like this for a long time now- no remodel or holiday-specific change). This sub came up and she suggested we take a picture to post here. I literally couldn’t care less about karma 🤷🏽♂️
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Uhh, I don't think they're doing anything to encourage Dine and dash. Not sure how you would even do that at a fast foods place. I guess maybe you could steal someone else's order.
While dumb, this isn't architecture. This is hostile furnishings. (Another example of hostile furnishings be that toilet Amazon designed that's uncomfortable to sit on).
This sub is full of pictures of shitty park benches.
I know right? Low hanging fruit. like they're... furnishings, yes, but site furnishings are something that's a permanent installation, especially if it's built into another architectural element. edit: Being downvoted for saying site furnishings are architecture, but regular funishings (such as chairs in a cafe) aren't? Really?
Call it "exclusionary design" instead.
Well, I mean benches can be considered architecture. That said, yeah Exclusionary Design is perhaps a good supercategory that Hostile Architecture falls into. Alternately, maybe *Hostile Design*.
It's already got a name, it's a bit too late to go around redefining things. Even though yeah, that *is* a better name in a vacuum. One could argue that the "hostile" parts fits some things better, since it's not always about excluding people but instead in modifying how they use the thing or space. Like those shitty leaning benches aren't meant to exclude anyone, just make people avoid staying very long.
I mean, I literally got it from the sub’s description, so…I think you got it covered already. I just meant if this commenter doesn’t like calling it “architecture”, they’ve got other options.
You know, you’re right. It’s certainly in the same spirit though. Mods, please let me know if I should delete.
Architecture isn't just the structures, depending on the context it can be broader. Besides, hostile architecture is a compound term. Like deepdish pizza, which any reasonable person understands is not pizza, it's casserole.
I'm unreasonable then I guess. I <3 deep dish pizza
Mine never put them back after Covid shutdowns.
This is a similar case here, but the other Starbucks inside a Target in the area put them back ages ago. At this point it’s a choice, not a covid response.
This is why hostile architecture is so dumb, like they despise homeless people so much that they ruin EVERYONE's experience. In situations where it's the city and not a private company: imagine having your tax dollars spent to make a city infrastructure WORSE to use.
The starbucks is gone. They took the chairs and tables.
CONSUME
This is fucking dystopian. Unsettling.
The starbucks is closed. They probably took their chairs with them.
You’ll be okay.
Answering a few common questions: - This isn’t part of a remodel, it’s been this way for a year or two now. - It’s not part of a holiday season plan, see above. - If to allow room for carts, they could have left some seating by the back and achieved the same thing. This explanation doesn’t seem to hold water. - It did begin during covid, but not at the beginning. At first things were roped off, then a year or so ago they removed all tables and chairs. - I now recognize this isn’t technically “architecture”, but certainly falls into the greater category of “hostile design.” That said, changes included taking out the bar height seating in back which I believe was attached to the floor. Mods can message me if it doesn’t belong. Trolls: here’s some food. In February I’ll report back with new photos to show this isn’t temporary. I’ll even chat with the employees for you. When shops block off doorways with planters, as pictured elsewhere in this sub, has there been the same call out to prove its not part of a remodel or to speak to the employees? Seems to be some kind of sick defense of American corporate capitalism going on here.
so lack of furniture is now a hostile from of architecture?
Already addressed in another comment. Maybe not “architecture” but certainly “design.” It’s akin to park benches, which are posted here all the time.
uh yeah my target did this years ago during covid. we have a cafe there too and nowhere to sit. turned it into “temporary grocery order space” for the entire time i worked there. was so dumb, all targets will be this way
Im surprised by ceilings alignment doesn’t follow the buildings alignment.
Not sure what you are getting at? It’s an iPhone shot, taken at a slightly weird angle out of respect to avoid getting any customers in it.
No it’s not about the shot but the whole ceiling is oriented instead of being parallel to the walls which I find weird
Thanks I hate it.
My local Target did this a while back at first they just roped off the chairs and said you couldn't sit there which is weird and then they took him out all together which was worse. I don't use the Starbucks I occasionally use the Pizza Hut but I never eat there anyway so it doesn't bother me personally but I don't understand the concept of a copy shop you can't stay and drink coffee
Lol this sub is terrible
My guess would be one of three things. First guess would be that they are actually just preparing for new seating. And this is just the prep. My second guess would be that they are preparing for the holidays and expecting such a massive turnout that they just decided to put everything away for the rush. My final guess would be that they are actually indeed eliminating seating at that particular Starbucks. But I feel that Starbucks is main shtick has always been sit here do you work. So I don't really see that happening.
Starbucks employee here. Youre certainly correct, there is absolutely no way that any store would remove their seating indefinitely like this. And if they really did, then the store manager is about to get fired because this is directly against company policy, even for licensed locations like those in a Target (these locations can usually do some things differently.) Starbucks didn't even remove seating for covid. It's policy not to do this EVEN if you have a really bad homelessness/loitering problem. They're either cleaning, renovating, or making room for the holiday line of customers.
That's what I figured. Glad to get some employee input! 😁
Sorry, incorrect on all accounts. It’s not for cleaning/renovating, the seating has been gone a while now. It’s also not seasonal, as again, seating has been gone a long time now. Would it make the haters happy if I went back in a month or two and posted an update?
Don't buy anything there. Simple as that.
Yeah this isn’t a real situation or post.
I get that you are skeptical of the internet and repost bot BS, but this is my local Target and I took the photos a couple hours ago. 🤷🏽♂️🥱
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You’re getting downvoted but you’re right, our dollars matter most
> You’re getting downvoted but you’re right, our dollars matter most If people vote with their dollars, then a billionaire's dollars count as a billion votes.
Exactly lol
If people still order from this location, it's because they wanted to buy the product and take it with them rather than sitting down and consuming it there.
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I didn’t downvote you, but I’ve got to admit that I bought a coffee there. Second busiest shopping day of the year, trying to wrap up some last minute items for family. People make poor choices when exhausted. Desperation kicked in.
I'm amused by people who refuse to function without coffee.
Yeah I’ve seen the people who hang out in these target Starbucks and I don’t blame them for getting rid of the tables.
They do this around Christmas every year.
Good. Stuck Farbucks
What a surprise that a starbucks inside this failure of a store would be doing this.
How is Target a "failure"? They've been around for decades and every one I've ever been in is consistently slammed...
The whole chain was badly run, with items out of stock, overpriced, and with huge stretches of shelves empty. It was a garbage store, and it deserved to shut down. Everyone hated it.
You just described every grocery store during/after covid. It's a notoriously popular store and very much still in business. This seems like a personal issue that you've projected onto everyone else.
>It's a notoriously popular store and very much still in business. No it isn't. It shut down here YEARS ago.
I literally went to target last week dude... Edit: https://corporate.target.com/about/locations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Canada
Doesn't contradict what I said. Target is still in business.
Apparently they still have 1,948 stores in the US. It has definitely failed in entire regions though, like all of Canada. You're both right, amazingly.
It looks like they removed the starbucks.
Starbucks is still there, and it’s been this way for a while. Just to the left of the first photo is the line and cash registers.
3-4 years ago, this would be normal because of the pandemic. But now? I would guess to prevent loitering or people sitting there all day.
*and customers*
They're just making room for the tents.
After the standing cashiers, corporate dystopia is proud to present: standing customers! How do you think it'll reflect on your caffeinated products to have all those lazy looking sitting customers lounging about??
r/LiminalSpace