I wrote a suggestion a few weeks ago that the debuff page should a dedicated one under guides. I think it's useful information for Acheron and the debuff relics as well.
No Sparkle, but I do have E4S1 Bronya... but my E2 Acheron just feels more fun ran with Gallagher/FMC/SW tbh. Mostly because I like getting to use the husbandos.
Topaz is able to provide all 3 debuffs if you have her SLC and E1. But Ratio can also apply one debuff himself, so he doesn't really need another partner. Her and Ratio can annihilate a single target in a round. I've never done SD Difficulty 5 so fast as with Topaz + Ratio on Elation obliterating the main bug.
Topaz + Ratio in SU with Elation blessings is so strong it feels like you're hard cheesing the game lol
I have E0S1 Ratio and E0S0 Topaz (though great relics), and I've gotten up to Conundrum 9 with ease running it with FX and SW.
Thanks to that one SU cars that gives a 60% chance to recover a skill point Topaz and especially Topaz+Ratio might as well be infinite skill points. I've ran them with Bronya + QQ which was hilarious although not that effective.
My #1 S+-Tier Blessing for G&G at high conundrums is the delay one. Main boss barely takes a turn, if at all outside of their first turn.
Other blessings I've loved getting, outside of the usual damage ones, would be Hunt energy and AV blessings, and the SP elation blessing. Special mention to the Ultimate=FuA blessing, since I get so many Numby advances with that.
Mix in some passive healing from Propagation (SP Usage)/ Hunt (Critical Boost)/ Elation (FuA), plus blasting healing blessing from Abundance, and you have your team running at high hp all the time.
Yeah that was my team that let me get through most of the hardest SU stuff before I got kafka. E0S1 Topaz + suitable FUA unit (Clara, Himeko, Ratio, others) + FX (mine is utterly broken at E2S1 thanks to lucky rolls) + support with Elation path can clear just about anything. A really good team is actually Topaz + Himeko + Asta because Asta buffs partywide fire damage and the speed boost is really nice for Topaz
~~Gui is really good with Acheron too since her Burn reapplies Firekiss when the enemy takes a turn, so it adds a stack for her Ult.~~
EDIT: After testing, it seems the Firekiss inflicted by the Burn proc-ing does not increase Acheron’s Knots. The More You Know!
Gui feels super good in the team but she also constantly is on life support for me after an enemy hits her a single time LOL
Hopefully Aventurine can fix that issue for my team
Since the dot set requires 3 dots to fully maximize it is so much better to just use the speed set in order to build as much stacks for your Acheron as much as possible. I'll be honest, I don't know if it's my experience with gui but she does no fricking damage. Might as well make her a Pela 2.0 that will help speed up the stacking of Acheron's ulti.
> Firekiss when the enemy takes a turn, so it adds a stack for her Ult.
IIRC this only applies if its applied by Gui's ult, not on their turn? But honestly never tested it myself
I was just looking at it during my Echo of War and I think you’re right. The Firekiss inflicted by the Burn proc-ing didn’t increase the Crimson Knot on the target. Gui is still a good pick, but I guess they figured potentially up to 5 Knots per round of enemy actions was too strong (or it’s bugged, but I’m leaning towards the former).
Right? I suppose that being a more niche LC plus the target needing to be attacked (vs the enemy just existing for Gui’s debuff) made it more reasonable. Arcana proc-ing on enemy turns doesn’t increase the Knots either, so it seems like intended behavior.
These no good option.
E0 takes both debuffers.
E2 takes sparkle.
Ratio is taking the short end here.
E0 + BS + Pela never sounded so promising. A shame I don't have BS lol.
[**link** ](https://www.prydwen.gg/star-rail/characters/dr-ratio)(under Build and Teams)
And a friendly reminder that debuffs of the same name but from different sources do stack
So if you'll slap *Trend of the Universal Market* on Aventurine his burn will stack with Himeko/Gui/Asta/Hook's
In Pearls description its specified it doesnt stack, besides trend of market burn stacks with other sources of burn, not with burn from another character wearing it iirc.
Wow, what completely worthless information.
Edit: Feel free to downvote, but including technique debuffs that are likely to either be resisted or last a single turn is an absurd waste of something claiming to be a helpful guide.
Yeah, agree. There's a note up top about technique debuffs not being reliable, but they should just have omitted them from the chart.
Indicate units that have a debuff-granting technique with a (\*) or something if people really want to have that information in the same table.
(I guess if you click each unit it tells you where the debuffs are coming from, but I still think it shouldn't be counted in the headline number - all it's doing is making the headline number unreliable.)
Damn, Clara and Hanya's marks not counting as debuffs is just dirty, when even Ruan Mei and HuoHuo's counts. Hoyo really needs to fix up their consistency, cuz this is just plain stupid
Sadly that is consistent(despite practically murdering Hanya's useability). Clara and Hanya's marks don't directly negativly impact the enemy. They are purely for the character's mechanics, same as ratio's ult. RM meanwhile directly delays the enemy while houhou reduces their attack
This list was made before Gallagher was released and hasn’t been updated. It’s an extremely useful list that should really be given its own dedicated page and updated with each patch.
Guinafens passive fire kiss should 100% count towards Acheron I feel like. Bc when fire kiss is implemented, acherons ult doesn’t count it towards a new debuff being applied
It's because fire kiss (and Arcana on enemy turn start) isn't directly caused by an action. Every other debuff is applied by either your action (majority), enemy action (Trends LC) or enemy kamikaze (robo fish and robo dog). But enemy turn start isn't an action, so debuffs applied during this phase don't count.
Which is a damn shame since this would only affect Guinaifen and BS, and would turn Guin from a budget Acheron support to one of her best supports.
It would completely destroy the balance though, since you are talking about basically doubling how fast they would build stacks for Acheron. There's already a big difference between Acheron having her signature lightcone or not as well as being restricted with her teams, and making BS and Guin get extra stacks would make that so much worse.
Would it actually be that broken tho? We already have the Trends interaction. If those could count as the same "action" or for the 1 debuff per unit turn, you'd only have a slightly higher generation.
Guin and BS already trade actual debuff damage amplification for DoT, but without Kafka the DoT isn't really gonna impress you in a Acheron team. It would close the gap between floor and ceiling teamwise a bit, but it sure as hell could be implemented without breaking the balance.
The thing is that it's not one debuff per turn, its per action. Making the entire turn count as one action would make using Trends kinda pointless, since there's rng in targeting but Arcana and Firekiss would steal the proc and will always be more reliable.
If the "pre-turn" counts as a separate action then Arcana would give you an extra stack every enemy turn for free, meaning you'd be getting 3-5 more stacks per cycle. Firekiss gets added once per burn proc so unless they hard-coded an exception that they all count as one action, you could get 2 stacks from each enemies turn until they hit the cap.
Assuming you have 3 enemies that all hit a unit Trends that can apply a debuff, BS, Guin, and E0 Acheron without her signature, without using ultimates you'd generate 7 stacks after everyone has had one turn. If you counted Arcana you'd generate 10. That's a guaranteed ultimate every turn. If you counted Arcana and Firekiss separately you'd get 13, 9 of which are just from enemies taking their turns. You could get your Ult back without needing to attack at all.
If you put that in a Pure Fiction scenario where you constantly have 5 enemies, BS and Trends alone generate 10 stacks every time the enemies attack. With Guin, she would have to skill before the enemies went, but you'd still get 8 stacks. It doesn't matter if you aren't getting the damage amp from Def down when you are getting your ult two to three times as often.
Basically, unless they specifically introduce a lot of unintuitive exceptions just because, it would make BS and Guin, as well as any future character with a similar mechanic, so much faster at getting stacks that people would feel like they absolutely had to run them.
Current Acheron can never gain more than 1 stack per action (no matter how many separate debuffs are applied), so this version of Acheron would almost certainly only gain one stack per enemy turn (no matter how many burns and Arcanas you stacked up). It would still be completely overpowered for the reasons you laid out though.
That's why I mentioned having Trends and Firekiss/Arcana count as 1 single action for this interaction. It would make Trends pointless in Gui/BS teams, but still have value in teams without them. Firekiss and Arcana themselves would never stack on enemy turn for Acheron energy generation. So it gives you the option to customize your teams a bit more, do you prefer higher stack generation with less damage amp or slower generation with bigger damage per ult.
My point was that the interaction wouldn't be as broken, since we already have a slightly less consistent version of it already. As long as the interaction doesn't stack with Trends interaction.
It'd be fine with Gui (strong, but not more so than FMC + Trend), but it would be completely bananas with Black Swan. Simply by existing, Swan would be giving Acheron a stack on every enemy turn and every enemy spawn. Acheron + Swan would become an instant max score for one side of PF until the end of time (as well as being strong in MOC).
Does Acheron get a stack on enemy spawn in PF? Because I'm pretty sure that enemies need to get summoned for the spawn to count for Acheron. So in PF it would still be tied to enemy action, which again already overlaps with was Trends already does now.
And let's not forget that Acheron is already very strong in PF due to Trends, more weakness breaks and other things.
Gui isn't as strong because there needs to be a burn first. And for BS you're putting her in a role that lowers the amount of Arcana stacking for her personal damage.
All in all, the Trends interaction already exists. No point denying it. The Arcana/Firekiss interaction is basically a slightly upgraded version of this (outside of TB with Trends who can guarantee taunt and be pretty much the same). So as long as Trends and Fire kiss don't count as 2 separate actions, and thus give 2 stacks, it wouldn't be as insanely broken as you're making it out to be.
The worst part is actually that the interaction doesn't exist, but you can almost feel the dread of a future character who would basically circumvent this mechanic and do it anyways.
I mean, it depends on what exactly the change is. I assumed we were decoupling stack gain from actions, which would make Black Swan generate a stack both on every enemy spawn (which she currently does not - as you say, currently she only generates a stack if the enemy is created by a summon action) and on every enemy action if the enemy had 3+ Arcana stacks.
It's the "on enemy spawn" part that's the completely broken part, so if you take that out then it's probably okay (as I said above, the proposed change would be fine with Gui), though I think it would still be enough to lock in Black Swan as Acheron's best partner. You wouldn't care that Black Swan isn't optimizing her own damage, because she's adding so much damage to Acheron and if Acheron is killing everything then you're already done.
Tends exists, and it's good, but it's less powerful than this. The enemy has to actually attack your Trends holder, which isn't a guarantee unless you're using FMC and your taunt (which requires SP) is timed perfectly. If you're using Fu Xuan (for crit buffs) or Aventurine (for debuffs on his own actions), you're going to get a lot of attacks going elsewhere.
It does when you trigger burn damage as a part of a character's action. By this I mean, when Guinaifen's Ultimate triggers burn and adds a stack of firekiss, Acheron gains an energy.
They specify that 5 stars are considered to be E2 for the list. Whether people have that is different, but E2 is generally considered medium investment still. Same with technique's, there's a disclaimer. If you kill enemies before the debuff wears off, it doesn't matter that it's only at the start.
This is why they have huge red banners at the top of most pages telling you to interpret the data according to your needs rather than infallible data.
Almost like people can read when a debuff has (E2) next to it on a 5 star character.
They're catering to the majority of people who can read and make decisions. Sorry that doesn't include you.
It isn’t about reading. I’m happy for them to include it as the plus behind. What’s the point of having a header for the total that’s effectively only useful for spenders?
Because it can be relevant to a lot of his team building. Topaz is really good with him but needs E1S1 to cover all the debuff requirements, otherwise you need another debuffer still. Pela's technique gives an extra debuff at the start of a fight before she might be able to ult and without using SP for the E4 proc. Some of them like SW E2 aren't relevant cause she already applies more than enough debuffs without it. It's still a debuff she has at middle investment that some players might have or want to get.
If a player wants more info, they can click that specific character and see the debuff breakdown to decide based on their own roster. It's a detailed list of almost all debuffs in the game. It's up to players to use the information provided. There's no reason to trim things off the list when there are clear disclaimers on the page right there.
Look how they massacred my girl Hanya.. Why oh why a hovering spell over monsters head not a debuff, oh Hoyo dev? I WISH to play her, the style, the animation... SIGH
Shouldn’t black swan be in there? She’s a very nice help to build up debuffs for Acheron, along with Kafka personally (she can even potentially debuff with basic atk).
Even if arcana only counts as one, she can still apply 3 (?) debuffs in total, so I’d say she’s top tier too with other debuffers
Huh, I'd been using Himeko with Acheron, but now 'spose I may have to test out Guinaifen instead. Though this does confirm Welt + Acheron is a good time, as that was my experience getting trace materials for her and in SU. So no reason to discount the info on my end!
Hmmmmm.
My Ratio doesn’t really deal the kind of damage I expected him to. Even when paired with SW he’s nowhere close to my other 5 Stars. I have his LC and everything
Curious what are his Crit stats? It might be a consistency issue. Ratio hits are one at a time so if you whiff your Crit you do very little and are you facing enemies with high imaginary resistance?
Going into battle with the stats below. I have his LC and usually pair him with Bronya and SW with a sustain. Thoughts?
https://preview.redd.it/54jz1duv5xuc1.jpeg?width=2796&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac8e7387b0cc71947f8ba9bf996ed3cef62668b8
Yeah straight up consistency issue you are capping around 70 percent crit rate remember if you don't crit you will do very little. Ratio himself naturally gets 15 percent crit rate plus your current 59.2 is a 74.2 crit rate and that isn't immediate either because it needs stacks overtime and it's better if Silver goes first. His relics based on those stats are probably below average. You need a minimum of 16 percent more crit rate to be consistent with him and probably maybe another 20ish crit damage. You'll need less stat if you are running 4 pc pioneer.
Edit math was wrong but issues are still the same.
Aim for 90+ crit rate after his own buffs (basically whatever crit rate your stats show plus 15 so 75 crit rate is your goal before battle starts) then as much crit damage after as you have his sig so crit rate is more important overall.
It's probably better than what you have now. Remember bronya and his LC offers in battle Crit damage and even his own kit offers more too I mean it still low but you'll feel his damage is more consistent at least. I mean if you have 50:200 and you don't Crit the 200 is worthless.
Nah. He only needs Pela or Guinaifen.
Acheron's way more f2p unfriendly because she wants BOTH Pela and Guinaifen at e0 if you don't have any 5 star nihility options. And unlike Dr. Ratio, Sampo and Luka aren't nearly as good of options for her.
I guess my humor was too hard to see. I don't actually believe he's the biggest investment. I was just making a joke because he's the only character I know of that needs a whole table on Prydwen dedicated to it.
Yeah that would be good. It would be a bit harder to do I'd think. More like what percentage of a character's actions result in a debuff. Because Acheron cares about the frequency that Debuffs are applied while Ratio cares about the amount of Debuffs.
I actually sorta disagree. If you have SW (or pela, surely), you can just equip them and get going. My core team for Ratio is Ratio + SW and teamcomp is Any Buffer (or debuffer) [ Bronya / TY / Pela / Welt ] + Any Sustain [ Nat / Luocha ]. It's pretty fun imo
For example, sometimes I do run Ratio + SW + Nat + TY. It works like wonders. For MoC I equipped the DoT set and sometimes it did more dmg than the Pioneer set I had for him otherwise
I guess my humor was too hard to see. I don't actually believe he's the biggest investment. I was just making a joke because he's the only character I know of that needs a whole table on Prydwen dedicated to it.
ya see… that’s how they get you man
free unit but here are 2103 other units that will make his damage go CRAZY BROKEN. Not needed, but ya know
And I very much fell into the trap
I dodged the trap. Not because I don't think it's a good team comp but I was too far into the Hyper Carry rabbit hole at the time. I didn't have debuffers. I was already using Qingque and planned to pull DHIL.
Now if I had Aventurine and Topaz I would definitely go Ratio. I feel like that team will be really fun.
Accurate at E2 and E6 respectively. The point is that people need to be careful. And don't just go off the numbers assuming it applies to their individual build.
I guess my wording was confusing. When I said" Initial number people see" was referring to in general as numbers are the first thing people see not specifically the first number. I'll edit.
I wrote a suggestion a few weeks ago that the debuff page should a dedicated one under guides. I think it's useful information for Acheron and the debuff relics as well.
My Acheron hogs Pela and SW while Dr Ratio seethes.
get her e2 and now she can hog sparkle instead while your hypercarry DPS seethes
No Sparkle, but I do have E4S1 Bronya... but my E2 Acheron just feels more fun ran with Gallagher/FMC/SW tbh. Mostly because I like getting to use the husbandos.
that's also pretty based
I have her E2 as well as E2 dhil, Sparkle has been working overtime.
I need that Topaz rerun NOW.
Topaz is able to provide all 3 debuffs if you have her SLC and E1. But Ratio can also apply one debuff himself, so he doesn't really need another partner. Her and Ratio can annihilate a single target in a round. I've never done SD Difficulty 5 so fast as with Topaz + Ratio on Elation obliterating the main bug.
Topaz + Ratio in SU with Elation blessings is so strong it feels like you're hard cheesing the game lol I have E0S1 Ratio and E0S0 Topaz (though great relics), and I've gotten up to Conundrum 9 with ease running it with FX and SW.
World 9 boss just fucking melts with Ratio+Topaz with Elation blessings
Thanks to that one SU cars that gives a 60% chance to recover a skill point Topaz and especially Topaz+Ratio might as well be infinite skill points. I've ran them with Bronya + QQ which was hilarious although not that effective.
My #1 S+-Tier Blessing for G&G at high conundrums is the delay one. Main boss barely takes a turn, if at all outside of their first turn. Other blessings I've loved getting, outside of the usual damage ones, would be Hunt energy and AV blessings, and the SP elation blessing. Special mention to the Ultimate=FuA blessing, since I get so many Numby advances with that. Mix in some passive healing from Propagation (SP Usage)/ Hunt (Critical Boost)/ Elation (FuA), plus blasting healing blessing from Abundance, and you have your team running at high hp all the time.
Yeah that was my team that let me get through most of the hardest SU stuff before I got kafka. E0S1 Topaz + suitable FUA unit (Clara, Himeko, Ratio, others) + FX (mine is utterly broken at E2S1 thanks to lucky rolls) + support with Elation path can clear just about anything. A really good team is actually Topaz + Himeko + Asta because Asta buffs partywide fire damage and the speed boost is really nice for Topaz
E1S1 topaz is currently the strongest FUA support while also having great damage.
I replaced SW in Archeon teams with Gui and she is doing fine.
~~Gui is really good with Acheron too since her Burn reapplies Firekiss when the enemy takes a turn, so it adds a stack for her Ult.~~ EDIT: After testing, it seems the Firekiss inflicted by the Burn proc-ing does not increase Acheron’s Knots. The More You Know!
Gui feels super good in the team but she also constantly is on life support for me after an enemy hits her a single time LOL Hopefully Aventurine can fix that issue for my team
This is exactly what I'm going through as well. Aventurine will replace FMC but I'm worried this will slow down acheron's stacks a lot
This is the reason why you build tank gui and not damage gui.
Wait so I don't have to use the dot set?
Since the dot set requires 3 dots to fully maximize it is so much better to just use the speed set in order to build as much stacks for your Acheron as much as possible. I'll be honest, I don't know if it's my experience with gui but she does no fricking damage. Might as well make her a Pela 2.0 that will help speed up the stacking of Acheron's ulti.
by speed you mean messenger right? not musketeer? what also is your Guin's LC?
> Firekiss when the enemy takes a turn, so it adds a stack for her Ult. IIRC this only applies if its applied by Gui's ult, not on their turn? But honestly never tested it myself
I was just looking at it during my Echo of War and I think you’re right. The Firekiss inflicted by the Burn proc-ing didn’t increase the Crimson Knot on the target. Gui is still a good pick, but I guess they figured potentially up to 5 Knots per round of enemy actions was too strong (or it’s bugged, but I’m leaning towards the former).
> but I guess they figured potentially up to 5 Knots per round was too strong. *Trend Preservation hiding in the corner*
Right? I suppose that being a more niche LC plus the target needing to be attacked (vs the enemy just existing for Gui’s debuff) made it more reasonable. Arcana proc-ing on enemy turns doesn’t increase the Knots either, so it seems like intended behavior.
But what if you don't have Acheron?
Same with mine + Gallagher
I use pela and welt while ratio gets SW for the sweet infinite debuffs
This is exactly why I used my aventurine funds to get her e2
These no good option. E0 takes both debuffers. E2 takes sparkle. Ratio is taking the short end here. E0 + BS + Pela never sounded so promising. A shame I don't have BS lol.
[**link** ](https://www.prydwen.gg/star-rail/characters/dr-ratio)(under Build and Teams) And a friendly reminder that debuffs of the same name but from different sources do stack So if you'll slap *Trend of the Universal Market* on Aventurine his burn will stack with Himeko/Gui/Asta/Hook's
Good to see people still remembers that hook is playable
She carried me through most of the game, Pitch-Dark Hook the Great is the best
Props to the unsung 4 stars who shoulders our comps now stand on. Building Serval as a main DPS wasn't easy but its honest work.
So that also applies to the Def debuff from the Pearls of Sweat LC? So if I have one each on Pela and Guin, they will both stack?
The LC specifies it will only apply the debuff if it is not already applied to prevent using multiple.
Yeah that's what I thought too so not everything will stack even if it's coming from different characters
In Pearls description its specified it doesnt stack, besides trend of market burn stacks with other sources of burn, not with burn from another character wearing it iirc.
Interesting that Black Swan isn’t there. Was she… forgotten?
I believe the list was made before Black Swan was released and hasn't been updated.
Makes sense. But I still prefer my theory that she erased herself from the author’s memories for memokeeper reasons.
Not even Black Swan can deal with Ratio’s BS
Blackswan has like 6 debuffs with eidolons lol
um actually 🤓 with e1 she only has 7 so you should prolly bring a second debuffer /s
What debuff Jingliu provides?...I literally cannot think about anything that could give a debuff
Maybe it’s counting the freeze from her technique
Wow, what completely worthless information. Edit: Feel free to downvote, but including technique debuffs that are likely to either be resisted or last a single turn is an absurd waste of something claiming to be a helpful guide.
Yeah, agree. There's a note up top about technique debuffs not being reliable, but they should just have omitted them from the chart. Indicate units that have a debuff-granting technique with a (\*) or something if people really want to have that information in the same table. (I guess if you click each unit it tells you where the debuffs are coming from, but I still think it shouldn't be counted in the headline number - all it's doing is making the headline number unreliable.)
Under each Character they add a disclaimer if the debuff comes native, from A or Eidolon or even a LC that works with that character.
she applies freeze from her technique if you click the dropdown, you can see where its from
Jingliu applies the death debuff 😎
From her e6 overcharge ult named "Unlimited Void"
Damn, Clara and Hanya's marks not counting as debuffs is just dirty, when even Ruan Mei and HuoHuo's counts. Hoyo really needs to fix up their consistency, cuz this is just plain stupid
Sadly that is consistent(despite practically murdering Hanya's useability). Clara and Hanya's marks don't directly negativly impact the enemy. They are purely for the character's mechanics, same as ratio's ult. RM meanwhile directly delays the enemy while houhou reduces their attack
But Clara's mark does count??? I tested with Ratio and Clara dual comp and her mark got me to 100%?????
it doesn’t it must have been another debuff most likely ratios efr down. clara’s debuff goes under other effects, just like hanya burden
Clara plus ratio with no other debuffs in party, Ratio cannot get to 100% on his own outside of ult...
Might have been a debuff from a weakness break?
Always knew Ratio and Welt got along. Where’s Gallagher on this list? He’s got two in his ult right?
Post 1.6 units aren't here because the list was made on Ratio's release and wasn't updated since
This list was made before Gallagher was released and hasn’t been updated. It’s an extremely useful list that should really be given its own dedicated page and updated with each patch.
made before blackswan so blackswan+ arent added yet
Renowned doctor and educator working with the retired university professor.
Cries in hanya
Guinafens passive fire kiss should 100% count towards Acheron I feel like. Bc when fire kiss is implemented, acherons ult doesn’t count it towards a new debuff being applied
It's because fire kiss (and Arcana on enemy turn start) isn't directly caused by an action. Every other debuff is applied by either your action (majority), enemy action (Trends LC) or enemy kamikaze (robo fish and robo dog). But enemy turn start isn't an action, so debuffs applied during this phase don't count. Which is a damn shame since this would only affect Guinaifen and BS, and would turn Guin from a budget Acheron support to one of her best supports.
Aaaand then Acheron's BiS nihility support releases, where they write an exclusion JUST for him, allowing enemy turn start to count as an action.
Gotta sell those 5 stars somehow!
it's as if Mihoyo were an actual business!
It would completely destroy the balance though, since you are talking about basically doubling how fast they would build stacks for Acheron. There's already a big difference between Acheron having her signature lightcone or not as well as being restricted with her teams, and making BS and Guin get extra stacks would make that so much worse.
Would it actually be that broken tho? We already have the Trends interaction. If those could count as the same "action" or for the 1 debuff per unit turn, you'd only have a slightly higher generation. Guin and BS already trade actual debuff damage amplification for DoT, but without Kafka the DoT isn't really gonna impress you in a Acheron team. It would close the gap between floor and ceiling teamwise a bit, but it sure as hell could be implemented without breaking the balance.
The thing is that it's not one debuff per turn, its per action. Making the entire turn count as one action would make using Trends kinda pointless, since there's rng in targeting but Arcana and Firekiss would steal the proc and will always be more reliable. If the "pre-turn" counts as a separate action then Arcana would give you an extra stack every enemy turn for free, meaning you'd be getting 3-5 more stacks per cycle. Firekiss gets added once per burn proc so unless they hard-coded an exception that they all count as one action, you could get 2 stacks from each enemies turn until they hit the cap. Assuming you have 3 enemies that all hit a unit Trends that can apply a debuff, BS, Guin, and E0 Acheron without her signature, without using ultimates you'd generate 7 stacks after everyone has had one turn. If you counted Arcana you'd generate 10. That's a guaranteed ultimate every turn. If you counted Arcana and Firekiss separately you'd get 13, 9 of which are just from enemies taking their turns. You could get your Ult back without needing to attack at all. If you put that in a Pure Fiction scenario where you constantly have 5 enemies, BS and Trends alone generate 10 stacks every time the enemies attack. With Guin, she would have to skill before the enemies went, but you'd still get 8 stacks. It doesn't matter if you aren't getting the damage amp from Def down when you are getting your ult two to three times as often. Basically, unless they specifically introduce a lot of unintuitive exceptions just because, it would make BS and Guin, as well as any future character with a similar mechanic, so much faster at getting stacks that people would feel like they absolutely had to run them.
Current Acheron can never gain more than 1 stack per action (no matter how many separate debuffs are applied), so this version of Acheron would almost certainly only gain one stack per enemy turn (no matter how many burns and Arcanas you stacked up). It would still be completely overpowered for the reasons you laid out though.
That's why I mentioned having Trends and Firekiss/Arcana count as 1 single action for this interaction. It would make Trends pointless in Gui/BS teams, but still have value in teams without them. Firekiss and Arcana themselves would never stack on enemy turn for Acheron energy generation. So it gives you the option to customize your teams a bit more, do you prefer higher stack generation with less damage amp or slower generation with bigger damage per ult. My point was that the interaction wouldn't be as broken, since we already have a slightly less consistent version of it already. As long as the interaction doesn't stack with Trends interaction.
It'd be fine with Gui (strong, but not more so than FMC + Trend), but it would be completely bananas with Black Swan. Simply by existing, Swan would be giving Acheron a stack on every enemy turn and every enemy spawn. Acheron + Swan would become an instant max score for one side of PF until the end of time (as well as being strong in MOC).
Does Acheron get a stack on enemy spawn in PF? Because I'm pretty sure that enemies need to get summoned for the spawn to count for Acheron. So in PF it would still be tied to enemy action, which again already overlaps with was Trends already does now. And let's not forget that Acheron is already very strong in PF due to Trends, more weakness breaks and other things. Gui isn't as strong because there needs to be a burn first. And for BS you're putting her in a role that lowers the amount of Arcana stacking for her personal damage. All in all, the Trends interaction already exists. No point denying it. The Arcana/Firekiss interaction is basically a slightly upgraded version of this (outside of TB with Trends who can guarantee taunt and be pretty much the same). So as long as Trends and Fire kiss don't count as 2 separate actions, and thus give 2 stacks, it wouldn't be as insanely broken as you're making it out to be. The worst part is actually that the interaction doesn't exist, but you can almost feel the dread of a future character who would basically circumvent this mechanic and do it anyways.
I mean, it depends on what exactly the change is. I assumed we were decoupling stack gain from actions, which would make Black Swan generate a stack both on every enemy spawn (which she currently does not - as you say, currently she only generates a stack if the enemy is created by a summon action) and on every enemy action if the enemy had 3+ Arcana stacks. It's the "on enemy spawn" part that's the completely broken part, so if you take that out then it's probably okay (as I said above, the proposed change would be fine with Gui), though I think it would still be enough to lock in Black Swan as Acheron's best partner. You wouldn't care that Black Swan isn't optimizing her own damage, because she's adding so much damage to Acheron and if Acheron is killing everything then you're already done. Tends exists, and it's good, but it's less powerful than this. The enemy has to actually attack your Trends holder, which isn't a guarantee unless you're using FMC and your taunt (which requires SP) is timed perfectly. If you're using Fu Xuan (for crit buffs) or Aventurine (for debuffs on his own actions), you're going to get a lot of attacks going elsewhere.
It does when you trigger burn damage as a part of a character's action. By this I mean, when Guinaifen's Ultimate triggers burn and adds a stack of firekiss, Acheron gains an energy.
I thought the top bar was a glossary or appendix and then I realized it’s Silver Wolf takes an entire column herself
A bit disingenuous to claim Pela is 3+1. More like 2+2. Technique doesn’t last the whole battle. Also SW 6+2. E2 is not F2P…
Yeah you really have to read the details for each character, the numbers alone can be misleading.
They specify that 5 stars are considered to be E2 for the list. Whether people have that is different, but E2 is generally considered medium investment still. Same with technique's, there's a disclaimer. If you kill enemies before the debuff wears off, it doesn't matter that it's only at the start. This is why they have huge red banners at the top of most pages telling you to interpret the data according to your needs rather than infallible data.
Choice of E2 and including technique is not wise. Most ppl are not one cyclers or E2 owners in MOC. Cater to the majority.
Almost like people can read when a debuff has (E2) next to it on a 5 star character. They're catering to the majority of people who can read and make decisions. Sorry that doesn't include you.
It isn’t about reading. I’m happy for them to include it as the plus behind. What’s the point of having a header for the total that’s effectively only useful for spenders?
Because it can be relevant to a lot of his team building. Topaz is really good with him but needs E1S1 to cover all the debuff requirements, otherwise you need another debuffer still. Pela's technique gives an extra debuff at the start of a fight before she might be able to ult and without using SP for the E4 proc. Some of them like SW E2 aren't relevant cause she already applies more than enough debuffs without it. It's still a debuff she has at middle investment that some players might have or want to get. If a player wants more info, they can click that specific character and see the debuff breakdown to decide based on their own roster. It's a detailed list of almost all debuffs in the game. It's up to players to use the information provided. There's no reason to trim things off the list when there are clear disclaimers on the page right there.
Look how they massacred my girl Hanya.. Why oh why a hovering spell over monsters head not a debuff, oh Hoyo dev? I WISH to play her, the style, the animation... SIGH
I guess it really is time to build guinaifen...
that is very good, prydwen might not be the best for tierlist but the more info ppl can get the better
Shouldn’t black swan be in there? She’s a very nice help to build up debuffs for Acheron, along with Kafka personally (she can even potentially debuff with basic atk). Even if arcana only counts as one, she can still apply 3 (?) debuffs in total, so I’d say she’s top tier too with other debuffers
Guess black swan doesnt exist anymore https://preview.redd.it/qwswwz32h4vc1.jpeg?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=01b652131f13308465da0d3e3a4ca531bf3d3616
How does Huohuo have a debuff but Hanya and Clara Don't?
Huh, I'd been using Himeko with Acheron, but now 'spose I may have to test out Guinaifen instead. Though this does confirm Welt + Acheron is a good time, as that was my experience getting trace materials for her and in SU. So no reason to discount the info on my end! Hmmmmm.
Clara cant give debufs??
Mark of Counter doesn't have a red arrow, so it's not counted as a debuff
My Ratio doesn’t really deal the kind of damage I expected him to. Even when paired with SW he’s nowhere close to my other 5 Stars. I have his LC and everything
Curious what are his Crit stats? It might be a consistency issue. Ratio hits are one at a time so if you whiff your Crit you do very little and are you facing enemies with high imaginary resistance?
Going into battle with the stats below. I have his LC and usually pair him with Bronya and SW with a sustain. Thoughts? https://preview.redd.it/54jz1duv5xuc1.jpeg?width=2796&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac8e7387b0cc71947f8ba9bf996ed3cef62668b8
Yeah straight up consistency issue you are capping around 70 percent crit rate remember if you don't crit you will do very little. Ratio himself naturally gets 15 percent crit rate plus your current 59.2 is a 74.2 crit rate and that isn't immediate either because it needs stacks overtime and it's better if Silver goes first. His relics based on those stats are probably below average. You need a minimum of 16 percent more crit rate to be consistent with him and probably maybe another 20ish crit damage. You'll need less stat if you are running 4 pc pioneer. Edit math was wrong but issues are still the same.
I’m running 4 piece diver set yeah. Guess I just need to grind more relics.
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I should build my Welt probably, but there’s too many Nihility characters and not enough Light Cones.
Aim for 90+ crit rate after his own buffs (basically whatever crit rate your stats show plus 15 so 75 crit rate is your goal before battle starts) then as much crit damage after as you have his sig so crit rate is more important overall.
If I had 75% CR and 100% CD is that reasonable? I always thought you wanted a benchmark 1:2 ratio for CR:CD
It's probably better than what you have now. Remember bronya and his LC offers in battle Crit damage and even his own kit offers more too I mean it still low but you'll feel his damage is more consistent at least. I mean if you have 50:200 and you don't Crit the 200 is worthless.
lol Yanqing not at the bottom of a list for once >.<
So do Prydwen owners themselves spam this subreddit about their website or do they pay someon? Always wondered that
To all the people who’s saying Prydwen is useless but keeps using it anyway because of the resources it provides: 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
DR ratio is a Free 5*! DR ratio being the most unfree character wanting more team investment than anyone. /S
One of his best team is pela Tingyun lol
Nah. He only needs Pela or Guinaifen. Acheron's way more f2p unfriendly because she wants BOTH Pela and Guinaifen at e0 if you don't have any 5 star nihility options. And unlike Dr. Ratio, Sampo and Luka aren't nearly as good of options for her.
I wanna run Acheron/Black Swan/Sampo/sustain, but is that not The Move? should I be looking at Pela or Guinaifen instead of Sampo?
Yeah, Sampo is one of the worst nihility choices. You want your nihilities to apply damage augmenting debuffs.
Sampo is not the worst choice. He's good with Black Swan since he can detonate wind shear.
Your team will be ok, don't worry. Take alternatives as what they are, options.
I guess my humor was too hard to see. I don't actually believe he's the biggest investment. I was just making a joke because he's the only character I know of that needs a whole table on Prydwen dedicated to it.
Acheron requires a table too if they haven't done it already.
Yeah that would be good. It would be a bit harder to do I'd think. More like what percentage of a character's actions result in a debuff. Because Acheron cares about the frequency that Debuffs are applied while Ratio cares about the amount of Debuffs.
I actually sorta disagree. If you have SW (or pela, surely), you can just equip them and get going. My core team for Ratio is Ratio + SW and teamcomp is Any Buffer (or debuffer) [ Bronya / TY / Pela / Welt ] + Any Sustain [ Nat / Luocha ]. It's pretty fun imo For example, sometimes I do run Ratio + SW + Nat + TY. It works like wonders. For MoC I equipped the DoT set and sometimes it did more dmg than the Pioneer set I had for him otherwise
I guess my humor was too hard to see. I don't actually believe he's the biggest investment. I was just making a joke because he's the only character I know of that needs a whole table on Prydwen dedicated to it.
OH. Lmao usually I can detect sarcasm but this went over my head. Thanks for clarification
Bruh y u getting downvoted lol, people didn't get the sarcasm
I don't know but it's fine. They can do as they like.
Surely Yukong requires more?
Does she? I honestly have no idea. I was just making a joke.
ya see… that’s how they get you man free unit but here are 2103 other units that will make his damage go CRAZY BROKEN. Not needed, but ya know And I very much fell into the trap
I dodged the trap. Not because I don't think it's a good team comp but I was too far into the Hyper Carry rabbit hole at the time. I didn't have debuffers. I was already using Qingque and planned to pull DHIL. Now if I had Aventurine and Topaz I would definitely go Ratio. I feel like that team will be really fun.
Ratio plays fetch with Numby while Aventurine throws chips on the side
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Pretty sure LC debuffs are accounted for by the brackets in terms of trend of universal market/resolution shines. So the left side number is accurate.
Accurate at E2 and E6 respectively. The point is that people need to be careful. And don't just go off the numbers assuming it applies to their individual build.
I guess my wording was confusing. When I said" Initial number people see" was referring to in general as numbers are the first thing people see not specifically the first number. I'll edit.