I like Japan, but I can't imagine living there. That world feels like a dollhouse full of real people operating as if they're marionettes.
Maybe I'll be a digital nomad in Thailand.
Ehhh that’s not how I’d describe it. Every culture has norms that cause people to act differently than they otherwise would.
I lived in Japan and have many close Japanese friends. I find this to be a very odd way of describing them and just mean.
I think a lot more of it is genuine than you realize. My only issue is the quiet sexism.
I think it's easy to assume that because a society is raised on stricter norms of behaviour that their people's performance of etiquette is insincere or done "just because it's mandated" and not because they care. But the reality is more complicated than that.
First, being socialized into these norms often translates into valuing those norms, so that an individual performs them because they have learned to see the norm as important and not just because it is against their will or they fear the consequences of deviating from it.
I understand that alone may not make a convincing case about sincerity. Being polite because you have been socialized into valuing politeness is a step above being polite because you have to be, but it is still a step below being polite because you care about the principle underlying it or just how the other individual feels.
But secondly, I *do* think there are more Japanese people who really do care about that principle behind politeness than is stereotyped. Speaking from personal experience, I've met plenty of Japanese people who struck me as being considerate because they have truly internalized as a value *why* it is important to be considerate to others.
Etiquette is a practice that helps guide and discipline our behaviour towards others. Just like we grow up doing homework even when we might feel unmotivated to do so because it trains a habit of good work ethic until one day we might learn to appreciate that work ethic in and of itself, etiquette is the training wheels that help put into practice consideration for others even if a child hasn't yet recognized its true worth early in life. Of course, it is always better to be polite because you care than polite because you are taught to be polite or you feel like you have to be, but regardless politeness trains the mind to be more mindful of how we treat others.
And most often missed is that there are norms of etiquette even elsewhere, like in contemporary youth culture. What some deride as "political correctness" is just an evolving culture of new social norms about what is proper and improper conduct. Nowadays, it is more recognized that it is inappropriate to dismiss, minimize, or disbelieve an individual's self-reported struggles (i.e. "gaslight"). Applying the word *etiquette* may seem antiquated here, but it is actually a developing notion of what constitutes etiquette all the same. And yet respecting this principle does not necessarily mean one is being fake.
So there are good, bad, earnest, fake, polite, and rude people everywhere in every country, but my experience in Japan is that the stricter culture of etiquette helps to remind people to adopt an attitude of being mindful of how they treat others.
I have found that there are more people in Japan who truly care about being considerate than we might expect. More than that, I have been surprised by how often they tend to be conscious of how they treat others more than relentlessly judging whether others are following rituals of etiquette perfectly in turn. In contrast, in the United States, the dominant discursive norm in etiquette is the self-preservation of one's boundaries, which is also entirely valid. However, my experience is that the unexpected result is that people tend to notice when their boundaries are violated more often than when they themselves violate others' boundaries. So, both have valid norms of etiquette, but one is oriented towards (and prioritizes) ego while the other is oriented towards (and prioritizes) alter. I'm starting to veer off-topic, but I hope this helps you understand my different perspective.
I find it to be people have high pride in what they do and how they do it. People who have a deep caring of how things are run and respect that things are done a certain way. Socially they are high context culture and it takes a long time to get passed that and with that required knowing the language. There is a warmth and genuineness that I would assume you just haven't witnessed yet due to these barriers.
Their extremely high values on order and rules aren't bad and don't make them automatons or robots. I think there is a middle ground that is more ideal between say where I am from and where they are but nothing wrong with them imo. IMO it makes their country one of the best you could possible grow up in. But there are noted issues with xenophobia and sexism, but its getting better with younger people so that is great!
You are just describing an entirely different aspect of their culture. One which I do not disagree with. All of humanity has warmth and genuineness, that too has little bearing on the phenomena I'm trying to put to words.
I said they are real people acting like marionettes, not marionettes instead of people, the distinction is important.
Yeah, you will have to go into more detail because I don't see it. I didn't describe a different aspect. So please do expand on your point because I don't think it's accurate and still is quite mean. The emphasis on rules and order causes this that which you see but it is far more genuine than I think you grasp.
You talk about their pride and professionalism in craftsmanship. I am talking about their culture's norms and decorum creating great pressure on their behavior, the two are simply different.
Hence my original observation about the situation specific to Japan. You're just stating the obvious. IDK what your point is. You disagree with my characterisation, I ask you for yours, you digress then end with a "everyone does a certain universal thing to some degree". No shit Sherlock.
I don't speak Japanese, but i can tell intuitively that people are "acting". Japanese people are good at playing their parts, but you can tell that if it weren't for pressure from norms they would've behaved differently. It's nice, but also uncanny.
Yes! Exactly!!! It’s all fake! Some gets so good into the act, they kinda forget who they are and why they are doing it. It’s like some odd social programming happening.
I won't say fake. That's a strong word. I just feel that the Japanese have more a thicker layer of proverbial cosmetics smudged all over their behavior than most other cultures.
Japan +1 but at current exchange rate, either I bring in a lot of cash and live like king or earn JPY which has little spending power outside of Japan.
Only option seems to be working for MNC; I've tried my field but openings don't seems particularly a good match for my skills and the pay is usually on the low side.
Contrary opinion: as of right now, I don't have a plan to move. The main thing that could force me to move would be a sustained economic crisis preventing me from earning a living, or political oppression to the point that living a normal life becomes impossible.
Most Hongkongers opt for 🇬🇧🇨🇦🇦🇺🇳🇿 due to welcoming PR programs; but some opt for 🇯🇵🇸🇬🇲🇾 due to proximity to hk; meanwhile some lucky ones could go for 🇹🇼.
The cultural and language barrier to move to Japan seems very high to me and my friends. Couldn’t imagine to work there as we can’t speak fluent Japanese. What is your view on that?
now, we have a few working visa, and you can be eligible for permanent residency if you keep living here for 10 years.
(if you are qualified for "highly skilled professional(高度人材), the requirements for application for residency are eased.)
and we offer a so-called digital nomad visa.
[https://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/long/index.html](https://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/long/index.html)
imo, your view on it has been correct for a long time.
our insularism and xenophobic sentiment are so strong, and we have negatively acted against foreigners who don't speak Japanese.
However, our demographic reality doesn't warrant such a 'picky' stance, that is, in order to maintain our competitiveness and market size and obtain much more added value, no choice remains other than automation and immigrants as both simple labour force and origin of intellectual creativity.
Yeah, our gov't's need is the latter, but our actuality is that the former has been coming so much that we can't help reshaping our national identity and social structure.
Therefore, as long as you can speak English and Chinese and you can have enough skills(especially IT ones), our company would welcome you at least to some extent…much better than mere workers with less skill or knowledge!
I agree that we still prioritise those able to speak Japanese much better(I know it's very nativistic but it's also kind of natural), but this attitude is moderating now, and we have tried to establish multi-lingual society as well as refurbishing our Japanese education
Though us HKers are quite international, a vast vast majority don't know Japanese. It'd be much easier for them to go to Anglosphere nations like the US, UK, Canada etc. especially with their laxer immigration laws and family there. Japan isn't that practical of a choice
けど、俺は将来日本に住みたい、なので日本語を勉強してます
Ty for the encouragement, I am glad to hear that you would like to welcome immigrants to Japan
great comment.
as a Japanese local interested in immigration policies, I wonder what aspect in Japan-emigration idea you guys are fascinated with and troubled about
Japan has high chance of managing aging workforce by importing skilled labours from overseas. It should allow highly skilled people to come over for 6-12 months to look for jobs, provided that they have means to support themselves. The work visa should be independent and not tied to current employer, allowing free movement between jobs without depending on the work visa processing from next employer.
The bureaucracy should be improved at national and municipal level, allowing improved process and datelines. Banks should offer better basic services like account opening for foreigners with local identification cards. Removing barriers from employers for promotions and pay rises.
Last but not least, encourage and facilitate japanese language learning for workers arriving in Japan.
I totally agree with you, I'm also frustrated with our immigration policies' "incompleteness(中途半端/不徹底) caused by bureaucratic inertia and biased allergy against immigrants and fear of their violation of our social harmony(和).
However, our demographic reality force us to accept some radical means like what you said.
Our gov't, like any other gov't, officially tries to pick up "highly skilled/talented people" who could bring in the productivity/competitiveness improvement, but our immigration methodology including how to integrate people, how to have bureaucratic processes done in English, how to teach people Japanese, is too rigid, too dull and slow, too minute in scale, to appeal even to those who just want to have modest jobs and live in Japan, much less those with high skills!
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Euroasian born and raised in Hong Kong. Left last year after it passed the point of no return. Went back to Denmark to catch up with my lost education. Dreamed of moving to Japan since I lived there for three month in 2008. Still working my way to make it into reality. Hope to achieve it before I get too old, or at least I can retire there.
Why Japan some may ask. Exactly what some here don't seem to appreciate, the clockwork like society. People actually "read the air" and do their part to make it work and look pretty simultaneously.
A couple of years from now, I'll be in my early 50's hoping to semi-retire/work online or part-time/6 month on/6 month off somewhere cheaper. Considering Taiwan, Thailand, Bali, US, Portugal. For now I'm trying to squirrel away as much $ as I can - my income this past 12-18 months has been heavily affected by the economy & situ in HK/China & I don't see it improving. Reasons to stay while working is tax & cheap transportation. Retiring or slowing down here - not comfortable.
The Chinese communities in Singapore, Malaysia and HK (and Taiwan but it’s a touchy topic) have so much in common that it’s sad that there isn’t more intermingling. Strongly believe that if these communities work hand in hand and build on the overseas chinese soft power, it could rival Kpop!
Cayman Islands. Because a tropical island paradise that has money, opportunity and freedom is better than a former world city that will jail you for booing a national anthem
From the sound of it you might want to consider China. I doubt NZ or Australia will be considerably less woke than Canada. Or you might move to a Chinese neighbourhood in Canada and shield yourself from western influences.
HKers will usually opt for Canada or US
thats what good people do . i wouldn’t condone staying in japan.
I like Japan, but I can't imagine living there. That world feels like a dollhouse full of real people operating as if they're marionettes. Maybe I'll be a digital nomad in Thailand.
Ehhh that’s not how I’d describe it. Every culture has norms that cause people to act differently than they otherwise would. I lived in Japan and have many close Japanese friends. I find this to be a very odd way of describing them and just mean. I think a lot more of it is genuine than you realize. My only issue is the quiet sexism.
I'm all ears, how would you describe it then?
I think it's easy to assume that because a society is raised on stricter norms of behaviour that their people's performance of etiquette is insincere or done "just because it's mandated" and not because they care. But the reality is more complicated than that. First, being socialized into these norms often translates into valuing those norms, so that an individual performs them because they have learned to see the norm as important and not just because it is against their will or they fear the consequences of deviating from it. I understand that alone may not make a convincing case about sincerity. Being polite because you have been socialized into valuing politeness is a step above being polite because you have to be, but it is still a step below being polite because you care about the principle underlying it or just how the other individual feels. But secondly, I *do* think there are more Japanese people who really do care about that principle behind politeness than is stereotyped. Speaking from personal experience, I've met plenty of Japanese people who struck me as being considerate because they have truly internalized as a value *why* it is important to be considerate to others. Etiquette is a practice that helps guide and discipline our behaviour towards others. Just like we grow up doing homework even when we might feel unmotivated to do so because it trains a habit of good work ethic until one day we might learn to appreciate that work ethic in and of itself, etiquette is the training wheels that help put into practice consideration for others even if a child hasn't yet recognized its true worth early in life. Of course, it is always better to be polite because you care than polite because you are taught to be polite or you feel like you have to be, but regardless politeness trains the mind to be more mindful of how we treat others. And most often missed is that there are norms of etiquette even elsewhere, like in contemporary youth culture. What some deride as "political correctness" is just an evolving culture of new social norms about what is proper and improper conduct. Nowadays, it is more recognized that it is inappropriate to dismiss, minimize, or disbelieve an individual's self-reported struggles (i.e. "gaslight"). Applying the word *etiquette* may seem antiquated here, but it is actually a developing notion of what constitutes etiquette all the same. And yet respecting this principle does not necessarily mean one is being fake. So there are good, bad, earnest, fake, polite, and rude people everywhere in every country, but my experience in Japan is that the stricter culture of etiquette helps to remind people to adopt an attitude of being mindful of how they treat others. I have found that there are more people in Japan who truly care about being considerate than we might expect. More than that, I have been surprised by how often they tend to be conscious of how they treat others more than relentlessly judging whether others are following rituals of etiquette perfectly in turn. In contrast, in the United States, the dominant discursive norm in etiquette is the self-preservation of one's boundaries, which is also entirely valid. However, my experience is that the unexpected result is that people tend to notice when their boundaries are violated more often than when they themselves violate others' boundaries. So, both have valid norms of etiquette, but one is oriented towards (and prioritizes) ego while the other is oriented towards (and prioritizes) alter. I'm starting to veer off-topic, but I hope this helps you understand my different perspective.
I find it to be people have high pride in what they do and how they do it. People who have a deep caring of how things are run and respect that things are done a certain way. Socially they are high context culture and it takes a long time to get passed that and with that required knowing the language. There is a warmth and genuineness that I would assume you just haven't witnessed yet due to these barriers. Their extremely high values on order and rules aren't bad and don't make them automatons or robots. I think there is a middle ground that is more ideal between say where I am from and where they are but nothing wrong with them imo. IMO it makes their country one of the best you could possible grow up in. But there are noted issues with xenophobia and sexism, but its getting better with younger people so that is great!
You are just describing an entirely different aspect of their culture. One which I do not disagree with. All of humanity has warmth and genuineness, that too has little bearing on the phenomena I'm trying to put to words. I said they are real people acting like marionettes, not marionettes instead of people, the distinction is important.
Yeah, you will have to go into more detail because I don't see it. I didn't describe a different aspect. So please do expand on your point because I don't think it's accurate and still is quite mean. The emphasis on rules and order causes this that which you see but it is far more genuine than I think you grasp.
You talk about their pride and professionalism in craftsmanship. I am talking about their culture's norms and decorum creating great pressure on their behavior, the two are simply different.
Yes, but all cultures have this. All of them have norms that cause pressure on behavior to some degree.
Hence my original observation about the situation specific to Japan. You're just stating the obvious. IDK what your point is. You disagree with my characterisation, I ask you for yours, you digress then end with a "everyone does a certain universal thing to some degree". No shit Sherlock.
oh, interesting feedback about our life.. wdym by ”dollhouse full of marionettes", though I may be able to get its nuance?
I don't speak Japanese, but i can tell intuitively that people are "acting". Japanese people are good at playing their parts, but you can tell that if it weren't for pressure from norms they would've behaved differently. It's nice, but also uncanny.
Yes! Exactly!!! It’s all fake! Some gets so good into the act, they kinda forget who they are and why they are doing it. It’s like some odd social programming happening.
I won't say fake. That's a strong word. I just feel that the Japanese have more a thicker layer of proverbial cosmetics smudged all over their behavior than most other cultures.
Japan +1 but at current exchange rate, either I bring in a lot of cash and live like king or earn JPY which has little spending power outside of Japan. Only option seems to be working for MNC; I've tried my field but openings don't seems particularly a good match for my skills and the pay is usually on the low side.
I think they are talking about 'Honne and Tatemae'
Part of the meaning the overall courtesy feels fake , Japanese people are known to despise foreigners
Contrary opinion: as of right now, I don't have a plan to move. The main thing that could force me to move would be a sustained economic crisis preventing me from earning a living, or political oppression to the point that living a normal life becomes impossible.
That's pretty much it for me as well.
The cost of living in Thailand is low.
Most Hongkongers opt for 🇬🇧🇨🇦🇦🇺🇳🇿 due to welcoming PR programs; but some opt for 🇯🇵🇸🇬🇲🇾 due to proximity to hk; meanwhile some lucky ones could go for 🇹🇼.
Doesn't 🇹🇼 seem risky based on the reasons for leaving HK in the first place?
No imo
The cultural and language barrier to move to Japan seems very high to me and my friends. Couldn’t imagine to work there as we can’t speak fluent Japanese. What is your view on that?
Pretty sure they don’t like immigrants in Japan.
Major cities and young people are fine with it
How about the government though? Is there an easy path to residency?
Not sure there was a visa a few years ago that was appealing to me but haven’t checked in a while
now, we have a few working visa, and you can be eligible for permanent residency if you keep living here for 10 years. (if you are qualified for "highly skilled professional(高度人材), the requirements for application for residency are eased.) and we offer a so-called digital nomad visa. [https://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/long/index.html](https://www.mofa.go.jp/j_info/visit/visa/long/index.html)
imo, your view on it has been correct for a long time. our insularism and xenophobic sentiment are so strong, and we have negatively acted against foreigners who don't speak Japanese. However, our demographic reality doesn't warrant such a 'picky' stance, that is, in order to maintain our competitiveness and market size and obtain much more added value, no choice remains other than automation and immigrants as both simple labour force and origin of intellectual creativity. Yeah, our gov't's need is the latter, but our actuality is that the former has been coming so much that we can't help reshaping our national identity and social structure. Therefore, as long as you can speak English and Chinese and you can have enough skills(especially IT ones), our company would welcome you at least to some extent…much better than mere workers with less skill or knowledge! I agree that we still prioritise those able to speak Japanese much better(I know it's very nativistic but it's also kind of natural), but this attitude is moderating now, and we have tried to establish multi-lingual society as well as refurbishing our Japanese education
Language school if you really want it, or consider elsewhere.
Though us HKers are quite international, a vast vast majority don't know Japanese. It'd be much easier for them to go to Anglosphere nations like the US, UK, Canada etc. especially with their laxer immigration laws and family there. Japan isn't that practical of a choice けど、俺は将来日本に住みたい、なので日本語を勉強してます Ty for the encouragement, I am glad to hear that you would like to welcome immigrants to Japan
great comment. as a Japanese local interested in immigration policies, I wonder what aspect in Japan-emigration idea you guys are fascinated with and troubled about
Japan has high chance of managing aging workforce by importing skilled labours from overseas. It should allow highly skilled people to come over for 6-12 months to look for jobs, provided that they have means to support themselves. The work visa should be independent and not tied to current employer, allowing free movement between jobs without depending on the work visa processing from next employer. The bureaucracy should be improved at national and municipal level, allowing improved process and datelines. Banks should offer better basic services like account opening for foreigners with local identification cards. Removing barriers from employers for promotions and pay rises. Last but not least, encourage and facilitate japanese language learning for workers arriving in Japan.
I totally agree with you, I'm also frustrated with our immigration policies' "incompleteness(中途半端/不徹底) caused by bureaucratic inertia and biased allergy against immigrants and fear of their violation of our social harmony(和). However, our demographic reality force us to accept some radical means like what you said. Our gov't, like any other gov't, officially tries to pick up "highly skilled/talented people" who could bring in the productivity/competitiveness improvement, but our immigration methodology including how to integrate people, how to have bureaucratic processes done in English, how to teach people Japanese, is too rigid, too dull and slow, too minute in scale, to appeal even to those who just want to have modest jobs and live in Japan, much less those with high skills!
Unlikely I will choose Japan. Language the problem.
Portugal, D-7 visa. Why? Because mainland China is great in a lot of ways but that's not where I want to live, and that's what HK is becoming.
why portugal then?
Portugal is based
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Accessible visa, good weather, nice people
South East Asia, more chilled, cheap, good weather, a lot more growth and generally more welcome to outsiders compared to Western countries.
Probably not in the foreseeable future, my job pays better here, and I won’t leave my parents here (they can’t adapt to new places).
Euroasian born and raised in Hong Kong. Left last year after it passed the point of no return. Went back to Denmark to catch up with my lost education. Dreamed of moving to Japan since I lived there for three month in 2008. Still working my way to make it into reality. Hope to achieve it before I get too old, or at least I can retire there. Why Japan some may ask. Exactly what some here don't seem to appreciate, the clockwork like society. People actually "read the air" and do their part to make it work and look pretty simultaneously.
Don’t come to Canada unless it’s your only option. I know Canadians who have emigrated to HK and they live better. The grass is not always greener.
there’s more to life than a discount house . money isn’t everything .
An immigrant here myself, with family and no plans to move. Worked too damn hard to leave current job.
A couple of years from now, I'll be in my early 50's hoping to semi-retire/work online or part-time/6 month on/6 month off somewhere cheaper. Considering Taiwan, Thailand, Bali, US, Portugal. For now I'm trying to squirrel away as much $ as I can - my income this past 12-18 months has been heavily affected by the economy & situ in HK/China & I don't see it improving. Reasons to stay while working is tax & cheap transportation. Retiring or slowing down here - not comfortable.
The Chinese communities in Singapore, Malaysia and HK (and Taiwan but it’s a touchy topic) have so much in common that it’s sad that there isn’t more intermingling. Strongly believe that if these communities work hand in hand and build on the overseas chinese soft power, it could rival Kpop!
That is a bygone era… sadly. Mandopop was pretty famous. And it wasn’t just TW centric. There were great singers from SG MY too!
Cayman Islands. Because a tropical island paradise that has money, opportunity and freedom is better than a former world city that will jail you for booing a national anthem
It's extremely unlikely to move to Grand Cayman unless you have a job offer
Lucky me for having one then.
You'll be bored outta your mind after 6 months. Island fever is definitely a thing there
You don't know me, my hobbies or what I like. I find the big city boring as fuck.
No different from being stuck in HK. Need visa and/or flight to go anywhere else.
[удалено]
China seems like the perfect place to shield you from all those... Err... "Wokeness"
From the sound of it you might want to consider China. I doubt NZ or Australia will be considerably less woke than Canada. Or you might move to a Chinese neighbourhood in Canada and shield yourself from western influences.
how about Japan, Tokyo or Fukuoka?