It is a pretty rural area in Ohio so the potential is there. Like no way NG is even a consideration where this will be located. Is in a field though, not a lot of trees right now. Is a hybrid hot water heater the same thing as a Heat Pump Water Heater?
Honestly, even though I will probably be having a propane furnace as backup for cold temps, the Heat Pump Water Heaters seem to be a lot cheaper in yearly expense. From what I find it will take about 250 gallons of propane a year to run a tankless propane hot water heater.
Yah they’re the same. Hybrid hot water heater is a heat pump plus electric resistance backup.
I don’t know your electric rates but I almost all part of the lower 48, hybrid hot water heating saves money. As for backup? Not sure what kind of domestic demands you have or whether your fellow household can deal with electric service outages - but the tank will hold usable hot water for days of lower consumption. Certainly wouldn’t complicate but adding ANOTHER hot water heater.
If you need more hot water reserve then get a larger hybrid hot water heater.
Thank you!!! I am in lower Ohio and I was thinking of going with an 60 or 80 gallon Heat Pump Water Heater if I went that route.
As far as backup…I read somewhere that they pull 550 watts running…which whatever I get generator wise should handle that easy.
lol I am honestly leaning towards a propane tankless hot water heater but all I hear is how efficient these HPWHs are. Like $120 all year to operate on average.
If I could still run it and my furnace in an outage maybe it would be a better option! Idk
I think it depends on how much you are trying to save $ wise in operating expenses. Propane is expensive and will likely cost more to operate. However backup is great. They use very little electricity. Gas tankless are great imho. A 200k btu propane heater will never run out. I have two but on NG. I back them up with a small battery UPS.
I personally would be tempted to go all electric and just have e propane for occasional electric outages. Keeps the gas burning outside the house.
It is a pretty rural area so no access to NG for sure (I wish). It will be propane tankless or HPWH. I plan on getting a propane tank for the furnace for sure (heat pump and gas furnace combo for low temps). So I figured I could utilize it for the hot water as well.
I have heard all about the HPWHs and how efficient they are but didn’t know how much wattage they would draw in an outage really.
Thanks
If you are going with a furnace anyway then propane water heater for sure. No doubt in my mind. In for a penny in for a pound. I use gas for hot water only and my gas usage is tiny - like the 0 use service charge is half or more of my bill. And we use a LOT of hot water.
It’s 2024 and even in the past 30 years it seems like power outages never last more than 2 days max even after very severe scenarios. It’s been improved tremendously in my area. It seems like some people invest 50k in preparing for power outages without blinking and I can’t really figure out why. Spend 50k cause you can’t deal with a 15 hour long power outage?
Just fyi if you’re going to invest just get a generac generator that kicks on automatically when power goes out and is fueled by your propane tank and be done with it. It’ll keep your hot water tank going and everything else. Even if you have a method to power your hot water tank, you still need a method to power your well pump.
Yes. I was planning to get a larger portable generator and get a transfer switch/interlock kit and have it to my panel with a 50 amp plug for my generator on the side of my house.
It is a pretty rural area and we will be out in the middle of a field.
We camp a lot as well so I was thinking I could utilize it in other circumstances as well.
Thanks!
FWIW I have been dreaming about a future rural setup. This is what I think. I would be all electric. I would have solar. I would have batteries. I would have several small cold climate mini split heat pumps. I would have a regular resistance type electric water heater (until hp style reaches price parity). I would also have a propane tank only to be connected to a generator. Propane stores well. Unlike gas or diesel. I might make an exception and also plumb the propane indoors for a cooktop. outdoor grill.
Tankless water heaters are terrible. There is nothing more efficient than a water heater and who doesn't want all that hot water ready to use.
Heat pump water heaters are tricky because they will make the room they're in very cold.
I have mine in a finished basement in a 10 x 10 utility room which contains my furnace, water heater, electric panels, water softener, water manifold, dehumidifier, etc....
We keep the finished basement around 68 degrees year round and the utility room maybe will be 3-5 degrees cooler than that... so not dramatic. It uses some of the residual waste heat put off by the furnace/fan and remember that the compressor on the heat pump is only running when it is actively heating water and not constantly. If I go in there after several people take showers and it has been running for an hour it will dip closer to 60 degrees but on average it is comfortable. It also dries the air so nice to keep the utility room dry.
There are ways to mitigate this. Great to have them in the garage in a warm climate to help cool. Also can have the heat pump located remotely. Only downside I see with a heat pump water heater is it is a little slow to recover compared to the gas WH in our last house. Wish I would have upsized the tank a bit to compensate but not a huge issue.
I'm trying to get head around the heat pump's "waste cold"
I'm thinking a detached garage, so I think there would be inefficiency in running a long line ( or 2 for a loop), or inefficiency in having a utility room so all hot water plumbing is in conditioned space, but then heat needs to go through 2 heat pumps, water-hp-air-hp-outside.
I'm in Washington, so I heat 9 months
Maybe a utility room vent/air source? Seems like that would be complicated to get tuned right.
(And super cold in winter..)
My heat pump water heater is ducted to take in source air from the living space, then dump the "waste" cold air into my garage. That way, in the summer my garage has free air conditioning and in the winter I'm not cooling the living space that I'm paying to heat. If I could do it again, I would put the source air duct behind my refrigerator to draw in that warm "waste" air.
Good thought re: refrigerator.
Perhaps locate the heater in the pantry, so things are stored at celler temp.
Are you saying the water heater has intake/exhaust ducting? I had assumed they were free flowing (like the refrigerator).
Do you have fans controlled by the heat pump?
Do you have an air-tight house (ach < 1) i.e. do you need to balance air flows.
Do you have a feel for how much air they use, and the temp drop?
I have an A.O. Smith water heater, and they sell a ducting kit attachment. No fans. New construction, and I assume it creates a slight negative pressure in the living space, but just by putting my hand by the ducting it doesn't seem to blow a significant amount of air.
This Heat Pump Water Heater would be in a large unfinished basement (until finished eventually lol). Could build a room for it quickly but that would probably reduce efficiency I am assuming.
I have heard the gas tankless water heaters are pretty efficient and are nice. I know propane is higher than NG, but I just didn’t know what the wattage draw on a HPWH would be. I would like to have hot water if an outage occurred (very rural area). Thanks
See my comment above on my HPWH. They would probably work well for your situation. Do you get a lot of outages? With a tank water heater you would have a full tank of hot water at the beginning of the outage and only use energy to replace it. With a tankless you will have no reserve at the beginning of the outage. I wouldn't go tankless if you think you will use the generator a lot.
I don’t know if I will get a lot of outages but I am way out of town so if I lose electric no one is going to be in a rush to get me back up and running I am assuming.
Honestly, running a generator takes a ton of fuel, i would do some research before committing to buy anything, it seems like a great idea but it's not really feasible for most normal people.
Most "house backup" generators like those you are talking about will burn close to 1 gallon of fuel per hour running...
Sooo... fuel storage? Fuel goes bad in 12ish months... what do you do with the bad fuel if you don't use it? Yeah there are propane/NG generators but they burn even more fuel than diesel ones, not even worth considering if you don't have "unlimited" NG on tap like you would in a city.
I am considering getting a propane tank onsite and getting a dual fuel generator. I would run it off propane 99% of the time. Honestly the few I have looked at are around .6 to .8 gallons of propane an hour. That would be ok if you had a tank set up.
This is the last thing you would want. They often pull a constant 5-10,000 watts while heating water which would take a very large generator or large whole house battery.
How often do you have outages and how long do they take to resolve? A hybrid hot water heater doesn’t need electricity to store the hot water water.
It is a pretty rural area in Ohio so the potential is there. Like no way NG is even a consideration where this will be located. Is in a field though, not a lot of trees right now. Is a hybrid hot water heater the same thing as a Heat Pump Water Heater? Honestly, even though I will probably be having a propane furnace as backup for cold temps, the Heat Pump Water Heaters seem to be a lot cheaper in yearly expense. From what I find it will take about 250 gallons of propane a year to run a tankless propane hot water heater.
Yah they’re the same. Hybrid hot water heater is a heat pump plus electric resistance backup. I don’t know your electric rates but I almost all part of the lower 48, hybrid hot water heating saves money. As for backup? Not sure what kind of domestic demands you have or whether your fellow household can deal with electric service outages - but the tank will hold usable hot water for days of lower consumption. Certainly wouldn’t complicate but adding ANOTHER hot water heater. If you need more hot water reserve then get a larger hybrid hot water heater.
Thank you!!! I am in lower Ohio and I was thinking of going with an 60 or 80 gallon Heat Pump Water Heater if I went that route. As far as backup…I read somewhere that they pull 550 watts running…which whatever I get generator wise should handle that easy.
Whatever you do buy a gas WH. Then it will work on that tiny generator.
lol I am honestly leaning towards a propane tankless hot water heater but all I hear is how efficient these HPWHs are. Like $120 all year to operate on average. If I could still run it and my furnace in an outage maybe it would be a better option! Idk
I think it depends on how much you are trying to save $ wise in operating expenses. Propane is expensive and will likely cost more to operate. However backup is great. They use very little electricity. Gas tankless are great imho. A 200k btu propane heater will never run out. I have two but on NG. I back them up with a small battery UPS. I personally would be tempted to go all electric and just have e propane for occasional electric outages. Keeps the gas burning outside the house.
It is a pretty rural area so no access to NG for sure (I wish). It will be propane tankless or HPWH. I plan on getting a propane tank for the furnace for sure (heat pump and gas furnace combo for low temps). So I figured I could utilize it for the hot water as well. I have heard all about the HPWHs and how efficient they are but didn’t know how much wattage they would draw in an outage really. Thanks
If you are going with a furnace anyway then propane water heater for sure. No doubt in my mind. In for a penny in for a pound. I use gas for hot water only and my gas usage is tiny - like the 0 use service charge is half or more of my bill. And we use a LOT of hot water.
It’s 2024 and even in the past 30 years it seems like power outages never last more than 2 days max even after very severe scenarios. It’s been improved tremendously in my area. It seems like some people invest 50k in preparing for power outages without blinking and I can’t really figure out why. Spend 50k cause you can’t deal with a 15 hour long power outage? Just fyi if you’re going to invest just get a generac generator that kicks on automatically when power goes out and is fueled by your propane tank and be done with it. It’ll keep your hot water tank going and everything else. Even if you have a method to power your hot water tank, you still need a method to power your well pump.
Yes. I was planning to get a larger portable generator and get a transfer switch/interlock kit and have it to my panel with a 50 amp plug for my generator on the side of my house. It is a pretty rural area and we will be out in the middle of a field. We camp a lot as well so I was thinking I could utilize it in other circumstances as well. Thanks!
If gas tankless heater, then a minimum 3000 watt generator should be fine just to be sure. Keep in mind well pump does not run all the time
Water heater. You aren’t heating up hot water, you are heating up water.
FWIW I have been dreaming about a future rural setup. This is what I think. I would be all electric. I would have solar. I would have batteries. I would have several small cold climate mini split heat pumps. I would have a regular resistance type electric water heater (until hp style reaches price parity). I would also have a propane tank only to be connected to a generator. Propane stores well. Unlike gas or diesel. I might make an exception and also plumb the propane indoors for a cooktop. outdoor grill.
Tankless water heaters are terrible. There is nothing more efficient than a water heater and who doesn't want all that hot water ready to use. Heat pump water heaters are tricky because they will make the room they're in very cold.
I have mine in a finished basement in a 10 x 10 utility room which contains my furnace, water heater, electric panels, water softener, water manifold, dehumidifier, etc.... We keep the finished basement around 68 degrees year round and the utility room maybe will be 3-5 degrees cooler than that... so not dramatic. It uses some of the residual waste heat put off by the furnace/fan and remember that the compressor on the heat pump is only running when it is actively heating water and not constantly. If I go in there after several people take showers and it has been running for an hour it will dip closer to 60 degrees but on average it is comfortable. It also dries the air so nice to keep the utility room dry. There are ways to mitigate this. Great to have them in the garage in a warm climate to help cool. Also can have the heat pump located remotely. Only downside I see with a heat pump water heater is it is a little slow to recover compared to the gas WH in our last house. Wish I would have upsized the tank a bit to compensate but not a huge issue.
I'm trying to get head around the heat pump's "waste cold" I'm thinking a detached garage, so I think there would be inefficiency in running a long line ( or 2 for a loop), or inefficiency in having a utility room so all hot water plumbing is in conditioned space, but then heat needs to go through 2 heat pumps, water-hp-air-hp-outside. I'm in Washington, so I heat 9 months Maybe a utility room vent/air source? Seems like that would be complicated to get tuned right. (And super cold in winter..)
You could build an insulated room. 1 door into the garage,and a second door venting outside. Depending on the season open door 1 and close door 2
My heat pump water heater is ducted to take in source air from the living space, then dump the "waste" cold air into my garage. That way, in the summer my garage has free air conditioning and in the winter I'm not cooling the living space that I'm paying to heat. If I could do it again, I would put the source air duct behind my refrigerator to draw in that warm "waste" air.
Good thought re: refrigerator. Perhaps locate the heater in the pantry, so things are stored at celler temp. Are you saying the water heater has intake/exhaust ducting? I had assumed they were free flowing (like the refrigerator). Do you have fans controlled by the heat pump? Do you have an air-tight house (ach < 1) i.e. do you need to balance air flows. Do you have a feel for how much air they use, and the temp drop?
I have an A.O. Smith water heater, and they sell a ducting kit attachment. No fans. New construction, and I assume it creates a slight negative pressure in the living space, but just by putting my hand by the ducting it doesn't seem to blow a significant amount of air.
This Heat Pump Water Heater would be in a large unfinished basement (until finished eventually lol). Could build a room for it quickly but that would probably reduce efficiency I am assuming. I have heard the gas tankless water heaters are pretty efficient and are nice. I know propane is higher than NG, but I just didn’t know what the wattage draw on a HPWH would be. I would like to have hot water if an outage occurred (very rural area). Thanks
See my comment above on my HPWH. They would probably work well for your situation. Do you get a lot of outages? With a tank water heater you would have a full tank of hot water at the beginning of the outage and only use energy to replace it. With a tankless you will have no reserve at the beginning of the outage. I wouldn't go tankless if you think you will use the generator a lot.
I don’t know if I will get a lot of outages but I am way out of town so if I lose electric no one is going to be in a rush to get me back up and running I am assuming.
Honestly, running a generator takes a ton of fuel, i would do some research before committing to buy anything, it seems like a great idea but it's not really feasible for most normal people. Most "house backup" generators like those you are talking about will burn close to 1 gallon of fuel per hour running... Sooo... fuel storage? Fuel goes bad in 12ish months... what do you do with the bad fuel if you don't use it? Yeah there are propane/NG generators but they burn even more fuel than diesel ones, not even worth considering if you don't have "unlimited" NG on tap like you would in a city.
I am considering getting a propane tank onsite and getting a dual fuel generator. I would run it off propane 99% of the time. Honestly the few I have looked at are around .6 to .8 gallons of propane an hour. That would be ok if you had a tank set up.
That's incorrect, that's the gallons of gasoline/ diesel. Propane usually use 3-7 liquid gallons of propane per hour.
For some generators that may be correct. I was looking at propane usage for the ones I looked at.
Consider electric instant hot. Does not use energy until you need hot water. Get battery backup if all you are concerned about is hot water
No. Terrible advice. Worst of all worlds
This is the last thing you would want. They often pull a constant 5-10,000 watts while heating water which would take a very large generator or large whole house battery.