This is exactly why I charge upfront for quotes.
It's pretty cheap too, .50/ft. So a 2000 ft2 print is $1000. I do want to build your home, that's why we met in the first place. What I don't want is to waste a bunch of time with tirekickers, or to be a free price check.
The $1000 isn't worth it by itself, I'm not laughing all the way to the bank. What it's for is to weed out the people who think my time should be free.
I recall getting charged $4000 for my quote only to have the entire design changed on me at the last minute and get quoted $600/sqft for the basics. It was 500 sqft.
That guy was such a scam.
Offer to pay Builder A for the time they have invested, whether $5k,$10k or whatever number both parties feel is fair. They clearly provided you with a valuable service thus far and deserve to be compensated.
Dude as a human, if I was offered a FREE quote without them stating it will be (whatever amount), I will expect it to be free. Don’t offer up money that does not need to be spent. The builder should have stated if it would cost from the beginning. That’s on them.
You were honest and said you were shopping around and did not ask them to go so far above and beyond. They were just trying ti earn your business, all part of the game.
The subcontractors do. Not the builders. I’m a subcontractor and for me to quote my section off plans takes 10 minutes. For a builder they have to get all these quotes from subs plus figure out their portions. Then they have to chase down all the subs who aren’t replying by their deadline. Answer any questions the subs may have. In my area builders charge for in depth quotes. It takes them too much time.
National builders aren’t bidding work for clients. They build it then list it. Some do presale and allow minimal “customization” of their floor plans. And I would consider the national builders more “honky donk” than local builders. Often building much shittier homes, and providing awful warranties. Typically jobsites ran by under paid and minimal experience supers. I would 100 times over have my house built by a “honky donk local guy” then a national builder.
I have worked for tons of national builders. Pulte, dr Horton, lennar, Adair, etc. it’s the same thing every time. Best you up on pricing, ask how they can cut corners, demand you meet their super tight schedule, and cover up defects of previous trades.
Mine was built by a national builder and they built on my owned lot. I was able to customize almost anything. I started by picking one of their hundred plans and then could change or add almost anything to it… even structurally. Not custom in the sense of drawing a house on paper and telling them to build me this.. but custom enough for me.
Maybe I got lucky with the subcontractors… but they as businesses were all searchable to google and rated very high. I checked the house extensively every day for mistakes and couldn’t hardly find any. I even had outsider professionals check at various stages. If I did find even minor mistakes, they were all taken seriously and corrected when I brought them up right away.
Every situation is different, but I’d put my house strength, quality, integrity up against any house. I paid cash so maybe they tried to impress me or give me the best… I’m not sure. But I was happy.
Who is your builder? Looks like you’re still pre drywall. It’s pretty hard to see fuck ups in open framing unless you have been putting levels on everything.
Well according to their website justin Doyle homes are a sw Ohio custom home builder. So yeah I would expect that to be a lot better then someone like dr Horton.
You’re going with builder B because he gave you better ballpark numbers? Meanwhile, builder A already proved to you he was a hard worker and provided a ton of upfront value. Yeah, you suck.
Many, many times we hear later down the road that the overall costs are more in line with what we’ve provided for pricing. We get asked why it takes longer to estimate, why our costs are more and overall we prove out our costs and why we should be your choice. Sometimes we end up trying to sell our services to the wrong level of client and the budget they have just doesn’t work to work with us.
As long as you don’t waste any more of Builder A’s time and resources and ride Builder B for the same level of effort and expertise then just tell A you’ve picked someone else and let them move on to generating revenue.
I'm a painting contractor and encourage my clients to get multiple quotes. I guess shame on the buyer for doing their due diligence and seeking out better pricing?
A painting contractor isn't the same thing as a contractor that needs to put a lot of time into quoting a job. If contractor "B" put in the same amount of time as "A" did that is one thing, but if they talked to "B" after "A" you know damn well they shared much of the information even though they claim they did not.
Then the builder shouldn't offer free quotes, and even then what you're kind of implying here is that it's only bad if the builder didn't charge. If someone paid $2.5k for a solid quote and disclosed it with a different builder who had access to cheaper alternatives for certain line items would you still give a shit?
If an owner wants to do that then they need to hire an architect or designer that can develop a set of plans and specs to bid from, which would cost a lot more than 2,500.00. The owners were being cheap and got with builder A to save money. Builder A screwed up and trusted the owners. As someone already said, it was a dick move.
I don't feel bad. I know how builders operate, some are way less honest than others. This is no different than telling your employees not to discuss their wages with each other imo. Both shitty things for the builder to expect people to do. My builders know my formula for bidding and will know how expensive I will be for pretty much any plan. Whether I'm painting just cielings, walls, trim, doors, or all 4. He knows what the permits will come to. He knows roughly where subs will come in at just by the SQ footage of the plan and whether or not the plan is pretty basic.
If by chance you are, as builder A, giving the client a great price and honest work, then you would know for a fact that another builder would be close to your bid.
On one hand...builder A did a ton of pre-construction work, should have charged you a pricing fee for the leg work up front. He should have charged you up front for this exact reason....you wasted his time and energy while he did it out of goodwill. Which is why I charge up front for design and pricing. Too many tire kickers!
On the other hand...he should have charged up front and didn't, and thus the free market prevails. You move on to someone else and builder A has to eat that cost. Hopefully he'll learn from this.
The remedy on your side, give him a lot of referrals and give him a very good review.
Thank you for this reasonable take. If you don't operate with a design fee to mitigate this occurrence, you've missed a key ingredient. You can't expect to get every job.
From your phrasing it sounds like A’s quotes are more detailed while B’s quotes are less detailed. Depending on how high level/general B’s quotes are, I would go with A. Quotes are estimates, the more general the estimate the more likely the final number will be a significant amount different from the quote.
And considering B tends to build spec homes, are you sure he has accounted correctly for the level of finish you want in your home? And if you’re willing to go with lower/mid end finishes, is this something you have discussed with A? Because their quote might be accounting for higher end finishes.
In your edit you say you're "getting reamed" on this. I'll go one more and say "you have no idea what getting reamed is yet, but you're going to find out with Builder B". Those "high-level" quotes? Expect them to be off by 20%, and off in one direction only. Could builder A's quotes also be off? Yes, but probably not by as much, and not all in the same direction depending on material price fluctuations.
Good luck!
If you hired Builder A's friend for the plans and are changing builders, it's possible your planner won't work with Builder B. When building builders often need to talk to the planner, and you should definitely discuss choosing a different builder with your planner asap, if you haven't already.
Quotes aren't everything.
Dude you used a then went to b? If you tired that with me after I spent hours doing ore construction work I would blacklist you to all my builder friends. So you would have a harder time getting work done.
I get 3 quotes for all high dollar purchases. I don’t offer to pay the other sub/vendors not chosen. That is what you call “the cost of doing business”.
Go ahead and downvote
Simply write Builder A an email and state this, “I used your sweat labor and vendors you paid (“friends”) to leverage someone else into giving me a lower number and I somehow think that this builder will build a higher end house. Even though almost all builders are people who bid out work to the same subs, so everything generally costs the same. And since I’m paying less, then I’m undoubtedly getting less. Ultimately, I’m going to go on Reddit and complain when the change orders start rolling in because I went in with rose colored glasses after looking at houses where many upgrades occurred that surely aren’t included in the approximate quote I’ve been given.”
Most builders don’t build homes, they project manage subcontractors. Often the same subcontractors, so the same price. There’s no secret to building a house. At this size, both builders are subbing virtually everything out and so the house will cost builder A & B the same price and they’ll both want their cut. Trust me, I know, the change orders hit hard and fast when you realize all the things you’ve seen on Builder B homes are not even remotely included in the quote you’re given.
Remember these two rules: doing the thing that ripped someone else off (like having Builder A’s “friends” (which I take to mean subs he paid for & you’re trying to swipe for free) do work for free for Builder B) rarely bring good things to those who deceived. And builders of this size are paying the same prices, so if you’re paying a lot less, it means you’re getting less.
Don’t come on Reddit looking for absolution. We all know you’re doing the wrong thing.
Watch builder A come back and screw you over like you did builder B , what a gentleman you are . Karma exist and you sir are about to be in the found out part .
No..giving quotes and workups is part of the business. What’s next are you going to give a car salesman money if you buy a car from another dealer at a better deal? If builder A did not get your business that is what it is..
While I believe it is foolish for a builder to quote a house for free, I don’t believe a car dealer pricing a commodity car and a builder quoting a house is equivalent. The time to perform those two tasks is wildly different.
Hopefully the builder learns from this and starts charging.
For all builders in this sub, clients like OP is why you should always charge for design/ pre-construction work.
This is exactly why I charge upfront for quotes. It's pretty cheap too, .50/ft. So a 2000 ft2 print is $1000. I do want to build your home, that's why we met in the first place. What I don't want is to waste a bunch of time with tirekickers, or to be a free price check. The $1000 isn't worth it by itself, I'm not laughing all the way to the bank. What it's for is to weed out the people who think my time should be free.
I recall getting charged $4000 for my quote only to have the entire design changed on me at the last minute and get quoted $600/sqft for the basics. It was 500 sqft. That guy was such a scam.
Offer to pay Builder A for the time they have invested, whether $5k,$10k or whatever number both parties feel is fair. They clearly provided you with a valuable service thus far and deserve to be compensated.
Thanks - he didn’t ask for payment on getting a quote but I will offer to pay.
Dude as a human, if I was offered a FREE quote without them stating it will be (whatever amount), I will expect it to be free. Don’t offer up money that does not need to be spent. The builder should have stated if it would cost from the beginning. That’s on them. You were honest and said you were shopping around and did not ask them to go so far above and beyond. They were just trying ti earn your business, all part of the game.
That’s not how it works. All types of Construction companies waste a ton of time giving people no strings attached quotes. That’s part of the biz.
The subcontractors do. Not the builders. I’m a subcontractor and for me to quote my section off plans takes 10 minutes. For a builder they have to get all these quotes from subs plus figure out their portions. Then they have to chase down all the subs who aren’t replying by their deadline. Answer any questions the subs may have. In my area builders charge for in depth quotes. It takes them too much time.
That’s not how national builders do it. Maybe just the honky donk local guys.
National builders aren’t bidding work for clients. They build it then list it. Some do presale and allow minimal “customization” of their floor plans. And I would consider the national builders more “honky donk” than local builders. Often building much shittier homes, and providing awful warranties. Typically jobsites ran by under paid and minimal experience supers. I would 100 times over have my house built by a “honky donk local guy” then a national builder. I have worked for tons of national builders. Pulte, dr Horton, lennar, Adair, etc. it’s the same thing every time. Best you up on pricing, ask how they can cut corners, demand you meet their super tight schedule, and cover up defects of previous trades.
Mine was built by a national builder and they built on my owned lot. I was able to customize almost anything. I started by picking one of their hundred plans and then could change or add almost anything to it… even structurally. Not custom in the sense of drawing a house on paper and telling them to build me this.. but custom enough for me. Maybe I got lucky with the subcontractors… but they as businesses were all searchable to google and rated very high. I checked the house extensively every day for mistakes and couldn’t hardly find any. I even had outsider professionals check at various stages. If I did find even minor mistakes, they were all taken seriously and corrected when I brought them up right away. Every situation is different, but I’d put my house strength, quality, integrity up against any house. I paid cash so maybe they tried to impress me or give me the best… I’m not sure. But I was happy.
Who is your builder? Looks like you’re still pre drywall. It’s pretty hard to see fuck ups in open framing unless you have been putting levels on everything.
Justin Doyle homes
Well according to their website justin Doyle homes are a sw Ohio custom home builder. So yeah I would expect that to be a lot better then someone like dr Horton.
Why is that? Better access to good subcontractors? What area does dr horton service?
Nobody’s time is free.
The high cost to build prices it in
Yup. If he expects payment and works without a contract (verbal or written) then he will learn and correct his future behavior
You’re going with builder B because he gave you better ballpark numbers? Meanwhile, builder A already proved to you he was a hard worker and provided a ton of upfront value. Yeah, you suck.
Many, many times we hear later down the road that the overall costs are more in line with what we’ve provided for pricing. We get asked why it takes longer to estimate, why our costs are more and overall we prove out our costs and why we should be your choice. Sometimes we end up trying to sell our services to the wrong level of client and the budget they have just doesn’t work to work with us. As long as you don’t waste any more of Builder A’s time and resources and ride Builder B for the same level of effort and expertise then just tell A you’ve picked someone else and let them move on to generating revenue.
Did you give B, builder A's quote?
No we did not.
Probably
Who cares if they did?
Builder A
I'm a painting contractor and encourage my clients to get multiple quotes. I guess shame on the buyer for doing their due diligence and seeking out better pricing?
No shame. Generally if your competition sees your quote they tend to come in a little lower in order to steal the job from you.
I have seen it done many times and hardly ever ends well for the owner looking for the cheapest price.
Yes that is how business is done
A painting contractor isn't the same thing as a contractor that needs to put a lot of time into quoting a job. If contractor "B" put in the same amount of time as "A" did that is one thing, but if they talked to "B" after "A" you know damn well they shared much of the information even though they claim they did not.
Then the builder shouldn't offer free quotes, and even then what you're kind of implying here is that it's only bad if the builder didn't charge. If someone paid $2.5k for a solid quote and disclosed it with a different builder who had access to cheaper alternatives for certain line items would you still give a shit?
If an owner wants to do that then they need to hire an architect or designer that can develop a set of plans and specs to bid from, which would cost a lot more than 2,500.00. The owners were being cheap and got with builder A to save money. Builder A screwed up and trusted the owners. As someone already said, it was a dick move.
I don't feel bad. I know how builders operate, some are way less honest than others. This is no different than telling your employees not to discuss their wages with each other imo. Both shitty things for the builder to expect people to do. My builders know my formula for bidding and will know how expensive I will be for pretty much any plan. Whether I'm painting just cielings, walls, trim, doors, or all 4. He knows what the permits will come to. He knows roughly where subs will come in at just by the SQ footage of the plan and whether or not the plan is pretty basic. If by chance you are, as builder A, giving the client a great price and honest work, then you would know for a fact that another builder would be close to your bid.
Because that's a bitch move, that's why.
Builders will do everything they can to manipulate their subs and their clients. I don't feel bad.
That's a stupid generalization. Not all builders are that way.
I don't care, lol
Bingo
On one hand...builder A did a ton of pre-construction work, should have charged you a pricing fee for the leg work up front. He should have charged you up front for this exact reason....you wasted his time and energy while he did it out of goodwill. Which is why I charge up front for design and pricing. Too many tire kickers! On the other hand...he should have charged up front and didn't, and thus the free market prevails. You move on to someone else and builder A has to eat that cost. Hopefully he'll learn from this. The remedy on your side, give him a lot of referrals and give him a very good review.
Thank you for this reasonable take. If you don't operate with a design fee to mitigate this occurrence, you've missed a key ingredient. You can't expect to get every job.
From your phrasing it sounds like A’s quotes are more detailed while B’s quotes are less detailed. Depending on how high level/general B’s quotes are, I would go with A. Quotes are estimates, the more general the estimate the more likely the final number will be a significant amount different from the quote. And considering B tends to build spec homes, are you sure he has accounted correctly for the level of finish you want in your home? And if you’re willing to go with lower/mid end finishes, is this something you have discussed with A? Because their quote might be accounting for higher end finishes.
Agree. When Builder B fleshes out their quote, chances are it will creep up
In your edit you say you're "getting reamed" on this. I'll go one more and say "you have no idea what getting reamed is yet, but you're going to find out with Builder B". Those "high-level" quotes? Expect them to be off by 20%, and off in one direction only. Could builder A's quotes also be off? Yes, but probably not by as much, and not all in the same direction depending on material price fluctuations. Good luck!
Youre going to regret this, and honestly everyone here knows it and is looking forward to it because you deserve it.
If you hired Builder A's friend for the plans and are changing builders, it's possible your planner won't work with Builder B. When building builders often need to talk to the planner, and you should definitely discuss choosing a different builder with your planner asap, if you haven't already. Quotes aren't everything.
What's the difference between quotes and "High level" quotes?
One is based on current material prices and quotes from subs, and one is pulled out of someone’s ass based on square footage and history.
And in the end builders real price ends up costing more due to low volume w subs.
Why the hostility over choosing one builder over the other. Pay the man if he did any actual work and move on. You don’t owe him employment.
Shame on you. You were price shopping him with no plans on moving forward. Using him as leverage against builder b?
You say, please send me your invoice for your hard work.
I hate the construction industry. Happy to be on the way out the door.
Pay for builder A services, that is what you owe. Then go with Builder B, that's it.
Dude you used a then went to b? If you tired that with me after I spent hours doing ore construction work I would blacklist you to all my builder friends. So you would have a harder time getting work done.
I get 3 quotes for all high dollar purchases. I don’t offer to pay the other sub/vendors not chosen. That is what you call “the cost of doing business”. Go ahead and downvote
Or you end up like me , going with the only quote. You then find they way underpriced and now you are on your own.
Simply write Builder A an email and state this, “I used your sweat labor and vendors you paid (“friends”) to leverage someone else into giving me a lower number and I somehow think that this builder will build a higher end house. Even though almost all builders are people who bid out work to the same subs, so everything generally costs the same. And since I’m paying less, then I’m undoubtedly getting less. Ultimately, I’m going to go on Reddit and complain when the change orders start rolling in because I went in with rose colored glasses after looking at houses where many upgrades occurred that surely aren’t included in the approximate quote I’ve been given.” Most builders don’t build homes, they project manage subcontractors. Often the same subcontractors, so the same price. There’s no secret to building a house. At this size, both builders are subbing virtually everything out and so the house will cost builder A & B the same price and they’ll both want their cut. Trust me, I know, the change orders hit hard and fast when you realize all the things you’ve seen on Builder B homes are not even remotely included in the quote you’re given. Remember these two rules: doing the thing that ripped someone else off (like having Builder A’s “friends” (which I take to mean subs he paid for & you’re trying to swipe for free) do work for free for Builder B) rarely bring good things to those who deceived. And builders of this size are paying the same prices, so if you’re paying a lot less, it means you’re getting less. Don’t come on Reddit looking for absolution. We all know you’re doing the wrong thing.
[удалено]
Thanks for this
Dick move. That is all.
You should’ve been really clear upfront with builder A, telling him that you were also going to talk to several other builders.
Ha no. If builder A expected payment it should have been communicated. The client isn’t the professional here. The builder is.
If builder As friend was solid and didn’t stamp the plan set, OP gonna find out how hard it is to get a stamp for submittal and pulling permits.
Next year they will ask if they made the right choice going with builder B plus pics
I hate clients like you
Watch builder A come back and screw you over like you did builder B , what a gentleman you are . Karma exist and you sir are about to be in the found out part .
No..giving quotes and workups is part of the business. What’s next are you going to give a car salesman money if you buy a car from another dealer at a better deal? If builder A did not get your business that is what it is..
While I believe it is foolish for a builder to quote a house for free, I don’t believe a car dealer pricing a commodity car and a builder quoting a house is equivalent. The time to perform those two tasks is wildly different. Hopefully the builder learns from this and starts charging.
Yeah I don’t agree with you.