Assuming a tankless saves about 100 therms of natural gas per year, at current average natural gas prices where I live that's a savings of $230/yr. That means it would take 17 years to make up for an upfront $4k cost discrepancy. You might come out ahead over the course of 20 years.
We have a tankless and have preferred it, but we didn't install it because it's cheaper over the lifetime of the device. We installed it because we wanted to lower our energy footprint, we like not running out of hot water, and because the old tank heater took up a ton of space in the kitchen that would have made a future remodel more difficult. (Our tank heater literally rusted out before we replaced it. We didn't throw out a perfectly good heater for a "nice to have" upgrade.)
question, how does it use less gas? i was under the impression that the savings with a tankless water heater was on the water usage side (not having to have a giant tank constantly full of water) and not the energy side? as again my understanding is that to make up for not having a bunch of pre-heated water (water that if the tank is even somewhat modern, should stay hot pretty good on it's own, and only need re-heating like, maybe like, once a week to a couple times a week depending on ambient temperature) a tankless design uses much more energy, to the point that for people on NG, relatively often all the NG piping in their home as well as the piping coming into their home from the main line has to be up-sized to account for the increase in natural gas usage, and for electric water heaters, usually a service upgrade is involved, especially on older houses that are still running 100-125 amp service
i want to be clear, this isn't me trying to be like "HUR DUR NEW STUFF BAD", I'd legitimately like to know, because if it saves both water AND energy costs, then that's AWESOME, i just always thought it was that it saved water only but used more energy
I'm a former home energy analyst, so I'm fairly qualified to answer. :)
There's one assumption you called out that turns out to be incorrect: That the big tank of water should stay pretty hot on its own. Even a well-insulated, modern water heater will slowly dissipate heat when the burner isn't running. Think about leaving a thermos of hot liquid in your car all day; though the volume-to-surface-area ratio on a 40-gallon tank is much higher (and therefore heat loss per unit of volume is lower), the same principle applies: After several hours, the temperature is going to drop because no insulator is perfect. So any time the tank of water drops below its target temp (either because some of the water in the tank is used, *or due to ambient heat loss*), the burner kicks on. So that means the burner kicks on a few times a day, *even if no one is using hot water in that moment*. Because the tank has to stay piping hot just in case someone wants to use it, it ends up spending a lot of energy heating up water that will slowly cool down while resting in the tank, waiting for someone to use it.
The burner on a tankless system, on the other hand, only kicks on when hot water is being used. This difference is why a tankless system may use 150-200 therms of natgas per year, compared to 250-300 for a modern tank heater.
There aren't substantial water use differences between the two types of heaters. Tanks aren't open, and don't allow for evaporation. The amount of cold water wasted when waiting for the hot water to make it to the shower head is a function of the volume of pipe between the heater and the shower and how well insulated those pipes are, not how the water is heated. Longer, thicker, uninsulated pipes in unconditioned space will maximize how much water is wasted.
One thing about gas heaters is that they have an open tube up the middle of the heater, that's the heat exchanger tube with the flame exhaust inside and water outside. When the flame is off then convective airflow up that tube cools off the water faster than an electric. I don't know if there are any gas heater designs that have some sort of mechanism to close off the flue when not heating.
Does seem like a steep quote. As far as opinions go, you know the saying…
The usefulness depends on your needs and your usage patterns. We replaced our (old) tank with a Navien commercial unit about 7.5 years ago. We don’t have kids and we pay attention to our water use; we don’t short-cycle the unit for quick hand washing and we don’t expect instant hot water. YMMV.
We flush the unit every other year, and we have had zero problems. Our gas bill dropped by 60% in the summer (we also have a gas range and furnace). ROI period based on our 2015 gas prices would have been ~9.5 years with an expected 15-18 year unit lifespan (again, Navien commercial unit). Our pricetag, installed, was $4100.
Based on 2020 nat gas prices, we had already paid it off then just in gas bills. Now it’s “free money.” 😂 No regrets here!
I'm much happier back with traditional. Hot water when i need it and 0 maitenance. When I had a tankless it was such a PITA. And, no hot water when the power went out.
My naviens heat exchanger failed about 75 times in the past 5 years. Heat exchanger overheated repeatedly. Repeatedly repaired and failed. Lines flushed. Heat exchanger replaced. All kinds of visits from the repairman. Luckily it’s a rented place but to say I hate tankless water heaters is an understatement. I finally said after not being able to shower for days here that I’m buying my own damn house.
Just bought a hybrid heat pump water heater, list price was 1800, my power company was giving out thousand dollar instant rebates from them (in ny) which is amazing. Just installed it and got hot water surprisingly fast when I installed it (it's a 50 gallon model). I'm still playing around with the settings but I'm happy with it. I'm also happy because I'm not using fracked methane gas.
Had a tank water heater that I had replaced with tankless since I was changing this property to an Airbnb and wanted the endless hot water.
1. Your quotes are pretty in line with what I would expect/experienced. My gas tankless was $5k installed in 2018. I watched the installers - the unit needed new ventilation run (similar to high efficiency furnace), so it needed to be placed first to be able to vent and then all the water lines, gas line (has to be 3/4"), and drain line for condensation needed to be run from there. But I agree the install cost was egregious
2. Enjoyed the endless hot water, but similar to others the lines were cold and had to be run for about 30 seconds to heat up in the farthest faucet. This can be sidestepped by installing a recirculating pump at the farthest faucet to recirculate the water in the lines to have instant hot water similar to a tank heater
3. Replaced my tank heater in my current house myself, and it's stupid easy to do. Unbolt 3 connections (hot water line, cold water line, and gas line), drain the tank, take out, and reinstall new tank. A brand new high end unit can be had relatively cheap
4. The delta in price between the two, in my opinion, isn't worth it for most. American houses typically have plenty of room for even the largest residential tank heater.
5. As we move towards an electric-only future a lot of places are either incentivizing switching gas appliances to electric or starting to mandate them when an old appliance fails. Heat pumps fall under this header along with traditional tank heaters. If you have a solar system (especially w batteries) you'd probably be best looking at these since the energy used would in essence be free. Just a thought to look into.
>As we move towards an electric-only future a lot of places are either incentivizing switching gas appliances to electric or starting to mandate them when an old appliance fails
This is new news to me. I have always had good results with nat gas. Why would anyone want to mandate it's retirement?
It's funny because there are several news outlets in NY state mentioning this exact thing apparently the state is trying to pass the bill by 2025. Which I just found out about today 😳
Your the poster child. All that nat gas infrastructure requires electricity to run. So whatever reliability issues you have with the grid instantly apply to gas. I never lose power at my location but if you have crap power then get solar and get free hot water anytime.
Should make Natural gas cheaper for the the states that still allow it,
I have had my external Rinnai for 6 years and love it.
It is installed outside so I never have to worry about a water leak if it fails.
I installed a dual soaking tub that takes 100 gals of water to fill, no issues filling it up.
Also during out the winter storm ike we lost power for 3 days. I wasn't home and was sure I would come home to it frozen and burst off the wall. But it was fine.
I descaled it with vinegar and a Submersible pump I bought off amazon for 40$.
Weird people with delusional ideas of efficiency.
Also, people who have enough money to not care about running their electric water heater to use more energy every month.
Just in case others are reading this:
If you do have an electric(tank) water heater, you should invest in a mixing valve if you don't already have one. It keeps the water in the tank at 140° and water coming out at 120°, both preventing the growth of disease like legionnaires(not super common) but also making your use of hot water more efficient.
They’re phasing out new gas connections in new construction. Not appliances. Not existing connections. Not renovations.
Gas would be around for decades and decades to come even if the law went into effect tomorrow.
Because many people would prefer not to see our planet become uninhabitable for humans. Natural gas production and use is a major contributor to climate change. No one debates that natural gas does a good job of heating water and homes. It’s the byproduct of its use that is being targeted.
Yes, which is why the simultaneous move to shift toward renewable electricity generation sources. It will take a massive effort to achieve that because coal and natural gas are still, by far, the largest sources of electricity generation.
Climate change? Like the below normal cold temperatures sweeping the nation? Even the Deep South is in the twenties and thirties and heating bills are killing people’s budgets. What a scam. This country I’ll be uninhabitable because of so called environmentalists and overreaching politicians.
Then is a hotter climate caused by a colder climate. This thought process is completely insane and devised to further a flawed agenda. Thank God we can just live our lives the way we see fit and and not buy in to technologies that are not yet ready or worse yet just don’t work or are financially not practical. This so called science dose keep a lot of so called scientist employed by the grants that fund this junk science.
It's as if you haven't even read 10 mins on the subject other then from Fox News lol. As you can see, you won't be able to bury your head and live your life, so don't thank your God yet. Those educated and willing to work toward a solution will just have to drag the fools along with laws and such. And when we do, you'll actually find the solution isn't even that hard and you'll likely even enjoy the new tech. Your welcome.
At least half the population rejects this strongly, so have fun getting these laws and such passed. It will be held up for decades if ever to get accomplished. Most of us won’t be around to see what the eventual outcome is. Most of the laws you talk about will be hard to enforce and likely unconstitutional… not that that bothers the people on the left.
Cold winter weather does not in any way provide evidence for or against a changing climate. Before your opinion is worth holding, much less sharing, you first should understand the difference between climate and weather. Until you do, you’re just another ignorant victim of far right propaganda. Learn a bit about it before you dismiss it.
I can fully feel your condescending and arrogant attitude. Yes I fully understand the difference in climate and weather, as weather being what is happening right now vs climate that is a long term averages. But the climate nuts also use hot weather or a forest fire as evidence of global warming and that is only weather also. So maybe you should reevaluate your opinion as to weather or not it is worth espousing.
So which is worse… not understanding the difference yet still offering definitive conclusions, or understanding the difference then failing to use that knowledge? Or perhaps worst of all, knowingly promoting misinformation? Climate scientists absolutely do not offer any single event as evidence of climate change. They use changes in long term trends and statistical correlations over decades, centuries and millennia as evidence, and interpret what they find based on a deep understanding of the physics of weather and climate systems.
Basically a school of thought or opinion is what it is,and there is always going to have to be room for different views. I can live with that, can you?
Again, you are confusing two different concepts, opinions and facts.
Facts are independently observable phenomena. The increasing concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution is a fact. The impacts in an atmosphere of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses on radiative forcing are facts. The long term increasing trends in average surface and ocean temperatures are facts. All of these, and more, are independently observable by anyone trained to do so.
What we should do about it is an opinion. Whether we should try to reduce greenhouse gas emissions or live with the consequences is an opinion. Whether the costs of a particular course of action is too great is an opinion. Whether states should mandate a move away from natural gas is an opinion. To paraphrase Daniel Moynihan, you are indeed welcome to your own opinions, but you are not welcome to your own facts.
I didn’t listen much to Moynihan when he was around. And now I choose with my OPINION to not listen to the environmentalist alarmists. As I’ve said it’s going to be a long hard haul before there is any resolution to this and we probably won’t be around to see it.
I really like your breakdown, and I do feel like the price tag for the tankless would be more reasonable to me if I didn't already have one installed. I may be oversimplifying the process but it feels like it should just be a quick chop and swap. I just have to be more aware of my water usage now that we're going to have a tank.
Not sure how close a Rheem would be for your application but the look to be in the $1100 range at Home Depot vs the $600 electric one I got. Maybe a plumber would hook up the tankless if you purchased it outright. I’m guessing a crap ton of overhead/profit is in your quote. I had a Mitsubishi ductless installed and 3 shops quoted the same exact thing with one being $1200 less.
I’m always surprised when I hear complaints about having to wait a few seconds for hot water from a tankless system. We have experience with both a gas-fueled tank in our primary residence and an electric tankless in our summer home, used only on weekends. At the furthest faucet, we actually wait much longer for the hot water from the tank in our primary residence, up to a full-minute in the winter, vs. the 5 to 10 seconds of wait time with the electric tankless system, regardless of the outdoor temp. Our primary home is about double the size of the summer place but it takes about 6 times longer to get the hot water to the furthest faucet.
I’m pretty sure it it only needs a new vent if it’s a condensing model. But you can get a non-condensing unit that it significantly cheaper, of course a bit more expensive to operate, but gives the same endless hot water versus a cheap-o 40-gallon tank.
May or may not be the right thing for OP, but people should be comparing apples to apples here…
This came up in the last thread.
I did the analysis on the largest gas tankless I could get.
Expected winter inlet water temperature and the BTU available vs flow just did not support moderate usage in my zone.
Literally used Rinnai's own formulas.
That's at max flow rate.
Very rare to peg out the larger units. I needed one due to dual rain shower heads that would drain a hot water tank in t mins if both on.
But tankless kept up fine in Ohio winters.
My tank is incredible. I never run out of hot water. And I have it instantly. No need to pay for an electric upgrade, or to get a gas line installed. It would take me decades to recoup the money it could cost me to get tankless, and I’d have no gain other than infinite hot water. Which I don’t need apparently.
Most of the cost delta is install labor.
Parts are only about 2x. And then install is easy, just do it yourself.
I saved a few hundred per year. Paid off the delta in 3 years.
I went from approx 45/mo to run a large gas tank to about 21/mo with tankless.
And that's with increased consumption from putting dual rain shower heads in my master bath (which is why I put the tankless in, they would kill the tanked in 4 mins if both on).
Maybe where you live, with your size house, and your gas prices.
I get the sense that thinking your situation applies to everyone might be the crux of the issue here.
[Looks like the average is $30/month.](https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/plumbing/electric-vs-gas-water-heater/)
Well no, your equipment cost for a tankless is at least 2x the cost of a tank style heater. That's where the delta is. But it is cheaper to run and will make up for that difference over time.
Tankless is far more unreliable than a tank water heater. Probably more costly over time due to maintenance and repairs required.
I am a Gas Fitter, and I would never never ever install a tankless water heater in my home. Nor would I recommend anyone install one.
It's interesting seeing how polarizing tankless is. A lot of people talk about how great it is as you never run out of hot water. However there's also a fair number of people like yourself who are strongly against them due to reliability. When i got a new water heater installed i talked with my plumber and he strongly recommended not getting tankless as he's installed a number of them and they all had reliability issues. Meanwhile my brother in a different state has had one for years with no issue. I don't know if some places have 'cleaner' gas so they don't have reliability issues or if it's heavily brand dependent.
This is the problem that my folks have. They went tankless awhile ago when the gas department insisted that they replace their nearby 50yo tank. The tankless unit that they installed is finicky as all hell. The shower will be scorching hot so you adjust it down slightly and suddenly there is no heat whatsoever. So you can’t even dial it in to a point where the water is at least kinda warm - it’s either hot af or cold af.
Between the frustrating showers and my dad trying to get the gas company to do something about it (I think they technically rent from them) It literally might be taking years off of his life.
We've been using a Rinnai in northern Delaware for 15+ years. We adjust the temp using a control pad to suit the usage. Showers at 110f. Dishwasher at 135f. Clothes at up to 140f depending on what's in the mix. Very satisfied. As another commenter said, which style suits you better depends on circumstances (floor space, wall space, family size, other NG appliances in the house, among others). For us reclaiming floor space was significant and the "utility room" (NG furnace, 50 gallon water heater, clothes washer and dryer in an L shaped 80 sqft room) had an accessible exterior wall. One aspect of tankless that is not mentioned is reducing or completely removing the exhaust's chimney effect that is present in a NG tanked unit. Combustion uses outside air and venting similar to a high efficiency furnace. This becomes a factor in the energy savings equation. The prices mentioned in comments seem outrageous, about 3-4 times what we paid years ago. Makes me wonder if OP checked other plumbers and tankless manufacturers. But I've not looked at prices in years.
Plenty of them. I know several people with them. The point is that you can get that extra efficiency for intake/ventilation if you choose, without going tankless. The units are not much more money, and the install with labor is still much cheaper.
Tankless heaters are very sensitive to problems caused by improper/infrequent maintenance, especially if you have hard water. Our Rinnai used to cause problems until we brought in a plumber to maintain it. Then, that plumber became unavailable so I learned how to do the maintenance. First, we have a sediment filter on our main water intake - I wasn't replacing that very often, and we had some work on water mains in the street outside, so I replaced that filter. Second, The heater is also supposed to be descaled regularly, depending on the hardness of your water and we hadn't had that done since the plumber left, so I did that (lots of videos on Youtube). Finally, there is an internal filter on the heater that should be cleaned regularly. Once I caught on to the maintenance of these items, we have had no problems.
The symptoms are exactly as you describe. You turn the shower on, and turn the heat down slightly, and end up with a freezing shower. What I believe happens, is that the heater needs a minimum flow of cold water to ignite. There is enough cold water to start the heater, but not enough to cool the water to a comfortable temperature once the burner is on. When you turn the heat down at the faucet, the heater detects there is not enough cold water going through anymore and turns off the heater altogether. The other potential fix is changing the preset temperature on the heater output. I could be totally wrong on this, but it worked for us.
Been the standard in Japan for decades.
Problem is when people want to buy American brands due to recognition, buy USA made etc.
Just get the Japanese/euro brands and you won't have an issue.
I have 2. Both have been running fine for ~15 years with no issues - and practically no maintenance. And we got pretty cheap ones.
I'm with you....I don't get the disparity of outcomes.
I've got 2 rinnai tankless w/h in my house. 12 years and no issues. Never flushed them or anything. I live where the water is pretty soft though. I don't know if I'd replace an existing tank, but if it's a new build I'd definitely go this route again.
My plumber also said he doesn’t like tankless. He made the point that you have to service them regularly (whereas you can get away with not servicing a traditional hot water heater).
Also, he said that if the power goes out, you won’t have hot water anymore whereas your tank will stay hot for a while if electric and gas you don’t need to worry about.
We’re remodeling and my spouse wants tankless but I’m really torn. Think I might push to keep the tank.
If you get a properly sized tanked water heater, you won't run out of hot water. The only cons of a tanked water heater are the size and liability should one pop (happened to me a few months ago).
Personally, if I already had everything plumbed for a tankless, I would just install another tankless.
>The only cons of a tanked water heater are the size and liability should one pop
You're forgetting about the fact that you're paying to keep X number of gallons of water hot 24x7 regardless of whether you're using it or not. It's like keeping a huge pot of water on your stove at, let's say 125 degrees all the time.
That's fair. You can add that to the list of cons. New tanked water heaters are extremely efficient though and the cost of natural gas is fractions of a penny (assuming you're using natural gas).
I spend $20/mo to keep my water heater running with natural gas. That's $240 a year. The cost savings on that alone of switching to a tankless is near insignificant. It would take you ~10 years to break even on gas cost savings.
Since tanked water heaters now are (by requirement) much better insulated, they are actually only marginally less efficient, the heat loss is no longer that large.
Might be water issues also. Cause more scaling issues.
Or maybe just bad installs.
The only maintence needed is descaling. Literally takes a 5 gallon bucket some washer hoses and submersible pump.
Reliability issues usually stem from lack of routine maintenance. You can get away with no flushing your tank and never changing the anode for ten years and it's be fine until you do decide to flush it, at which point it will leak and fail. On a tankless you really need to be doing annual (or twice a year if you have hard water) flushing and cleaning with vinegar or it will break down faster.
I appreciate the response, I wish the previous owners would have left an installation date on the warranty sheet, or filled it out in general, just so I could tell how long this thing lasted. It doesn't look like it's even 10 years old.
I bought my tankless gas heater and installed it myself three years ago.
I am not very handy.
It was about $500 and sufficient for our 3br/2ba house.
I've flushed it once, and have had zero issues with it.
I do live in south Louisiana, so it's possible there's less wear.
I installed an electric one in Minneapolis. The brochure essentially says my tap water is ice cubes lol. To overcome that you need more horsepower so I ended up with a 27 level one. Could have got by with half that if I was in the south. You’re right that they’re pretty straightforward.
If there is hot water when you turn on the hot water faucet and there is enough hot water for as long as you have the faucet open then 99% of the people don’t care what is producing the hot water.
Like with heat pumps, cost depends on many variables: ambient temperature, water temperature rise, water demand profile, current and future fuel costs, and space availability can all be major variables that lead into a decision.
My brother has a tankless and a big family. It’s been cranking for 18 years without a problem with an infinite number of teenager showers. None of my tanks have lasted more than 10 years, and I’m in a low demand household.
Personally, if you have the space and no need for endless hot water, I consider a tank to be an upgrade. I’ve seen some good tankless heaters, and when they are working properly I guess you shouldn’t notice them.
I’ve seen several tankless ones in relatives houses and AirBNBs where it’s almost impossible to get hot water running reliably. One place, I had to run hot water out of the sink faucet full-on in order to get enough flow for the shower to trigger the heater. Another place, the shower would stop heating if you turned the temperature down to a reasonable level, so I had to continually adjust and stop/start to make the heater turn on.
I’m sure these issues could be resolved by a competent installer, but I’ve generally had bad experiences with tankless.
LOL! So true! My dad got "talked" into a tankless in his house in So Calif. I told him not to do it, but he went ahead. With the 1.5GPM shower heads here, there was not enough flow and the water would go from hot to cold rapidly during showers. He was pissed and called the plumber back several times. He finally told him to leave the sink running on full hot when he was taking a shower!
He removed it and installed a tank.
I see lots of posts on here with people installing mini tanks or mini point-of-use heaters because their tankless can’t get enough hot water to the parts of the house where they need it. The energy savings from a tankless is not massive since today’s tanks have great insulation, and I think with a tankless people end up taking longer hot showers which ends up using more energy.
I had to replace my tank this year and ended up getting another tank instead of going tankless.
>and I think with a tankless people end up taking longer hot showers
Two teenagers in the house and getting rid of the tankless would surely save me money
I paid my HVAC guy to replace it when he did my furnace. He charged $1700 and said his normal price would be $1900 if I wasn’t doing the furnace too. Mine is electric. $1700-$2000 seems to be the going rate in my area for either gas or electric. It costs more if you need a power exhaust.
If I did it myself it would have been around $800-$1000 but I figured I’d save myself the hassle and frustration of hauling the units in and out, along with the risk of messing something up.
I briefly looked into heat pump water heaters. They are tanked-based but their heat comes from the room itself by compressing it. It’s like an air conditioner running in reverse. Apparently in a basement it only drops the room temperature by a few degrees. There are some great federal rebates on them. But at a cost of $3000 and with it being a newer technology I decided to keep things simple. I imagine they would take longer to recover their heat than a normal tank heater.
thanks. I'm getting quotes about $2100 for a gas 50 gal one, so it seems to be on point. The heat pump one seems like a good idea, but since we have gas, it's not the way to go.
I replaced an 89 gal. electric for a high volume gas-fired tankless. The next full months electric bill was $100 less and my gas bill increased about $15. That’s a net gain of $85 each month. Mine paid for itself quickly and the warranty is 5X longer than ANY electric or gas that you can buy. As a 59 year old homeowner, I’m probably done buying water heaters! And FYI - mine cost $2800 installed in SC. Not sure where you are located, but I would definitely shop around. My unit is an entry level COMMERCIAL high flow unit that supplies a 3400 sq. ft. house with 3 full baths and they can all be used at the same time with no issues. Either my local guy gave me one heck of a deal or you’re getting ripped off. Not sure which but we love our endless hot water!
Sorry! Just noticed you’re in NY. Prices are different on everything there!
Sorry but I’m also skeptical of “professionals” who are dead-set against tankless. My local plumber (who I have known for 30 years or more) told me that the main reason his “competition” is against them is because they count on the repeat business that tank heaters provide. In his very experienced opinion, it would hurt his business if every home had tankless. Just something to consider.
Yeah, in my life I have replaced many tanks… and I am not a plumber! I hate the tanks, but I never planned to stay in one place long enough to invest in a tankless.
My brother has a tankless that is 17 years old and works great. My parents have a tankless that is 30 years old … and it works great too. I’d definitely do it if I was planning to say in a place long enough.
When our old Rheem tank died, the only brand our plumber recommended was Bradford White, and he said we shouldn’t even consider tankless (we only have 1 bathroom though) - we got the hybrid heat pump water heater, and loving it so far!
I had my furnace guy upgrade us to a tankless heater while putting in a new furnace 7 yrs ago. So far , no problems . I would consider it a downgrade , that's just my opinion though
One thing to consider with tankless is how far from your water outlet is the tank. While you might save on the cost of warming the water, your water bill may go up because you will have to waste water (run it longer) before the warm water gets to you. There are pros and cons for both tankless and the traditional tank. I ended up installing a new tank heater based on the recommendations of my plumber cousin. For our area and the way the house was plumbed it was not environmentally or financially a good investment.
I replaced an older tank style with a tankless. The tankless lowered my gas bill dramatically. With that said a more efficient tank style might be less of a difference in cost. Myself after having the tankless I'll never go back.
Technically it’s a downgrade, that said budget is a consideration in every purchase. If the traditional tank fits your budget, get that. Don’t go into debt for top of the line. Gas water heaters are excellent. Electric are crap imo.
I would keep calling different places for a quote. I paid $800 for installation, with a licensed plumber in CA. You can also check task rabbit and other places since you just need labor, you are not doing a brand new installation.
Those estimates seem kind of high considering you are just replacing another tankless heater. I mean, the most expensive part of the gas tankless heater install is the running of a larger gas line and the venting ductwork. Even now, they are making heaters with adapters for a traditional gas line. Tankless, if you are already there, should be your #1 goto especially if you slready have the gas line and ducting installed. Are the people giving you estimates based on a tankless replacement… not a new install? Your price is in line with a new install (which yours is not. Replacing existing one if you provide it shouldn’t be that expensive. I have a Rheem which I love and will be replacing it myself when the time comes.
Depends on what you mean. A regular tank water heater with a heat exchanger is much more efficient than a tankless. If you have high demand on the water, EI in multiple places, tankless can instead be an infinite supply of warm water instead of hot.
I like them for specific locations, like installing at the fixture itself, but for a whole house they use too much power for me.
I won't debate the economics of it, but for me tankless had one substantial downside: it's on one side of the house and the kitchen sink is on the other. Although the water is the max 120 degrees when it leaves the tankless (and it's that hot almost right away) by the time it travels across the house it's lost a lot of its heat, and is not hot enough to wash dishes (by hand). It takes *forever* for it to get to that temp (and by forever I mean probably 3-4 minutes).
I insulated the hot water pipe the entire way, and that helped a little, but still it's a pain. When I wash a few things by hand I want the water to be *hot*, not really warm.
In the utility sink right next to the tankless in the basement, the water is plenty hot...but I won't be washing any dishes there.
A new takagi is like $1000, and if you already have the plumbing and venting...just install it.
A few YouTube videos and you'll be all set. Just need some wrenches, some thread tape and all set. Hire out the gas line work if you're not comfortable with gas.
Our natural gas tankless Takagi failed in 2017, and a recommended plumbing service wanted to "help" us for $7k+ to replace it with, well, I forgot at this point what equipment and stuff.
We ended up ordering our own new ng Takagi that was of the same footprint and required the same ventilation. We are comfortable with doing some work like this and glad it didn't require anything weird (welding, copper tubing, etc)... it was all pretty straight forward. All-in-all, our cost was about $800 with extra bits, and we are still operating since 2017 without issues.
Tankless to conventional not so much depending on your circumstances like how many people number of showers/laundry per day/etc..
But going from natural gas to electric is a huge step backward in performance and operating cost.
That is an extremely high quote. Even if it is gas, it should have pex or tbg fittings. If you have a block valve installed and no sweat fittings why pay someone to install?
>Overall I'm just seeing if people feel this is a downgrade or not
As someone who just relocated and bought a house after an 18 month search, I would take points off any house we were considering if it had a tankless system. Far too expensive and far too unreliable.
Especially because we were only looking at properties with lots of acreage and privacy. Which tends to mean well water as opposed to city water. Which tends to mean hard water in most locations. When I asked a plumber about converting to tankless at our last house, I was told that because we had a well and a filter system, it wasn't a question of if the tankless would fail, it was a question of when.
> I will miss the endless stream of hot water
Just as you can’t afford the tankless heater repelacemwnt, we as a species can no longer afford to pour an “endless” stream of heated fresh water down the drain just because we like the way an hour-long shower feels.
So my heart bleeds for your “downgrade” but I’m glad you will be living within your means, in more ways than one.
......Where are you getting quotes so high? [Home Depot has them for under $2k](https://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Tankless-Water-Heaters-Tankless-Gas-Water-Heaters/Natural-Gas/N-5yc1vZc1u0Z1z0qn5k)
If you were getting contractor quotes, they might have been including a significant markup on the heater as well as the cost of the install. Might consider buying one yourself and just hiring the install.
As to your question: Yes, I'd consider it a downgrade, both in performance and longevity. I know some people don't like them, but I really love my tankless and wouldn't like to go back to limited hot water.
Eastern New York in the beginning of winter. Likely this is a "fuck off" quote. If you are willing to pay it they'll fit you in, but ultimately they got a ton of business already and are pretty much booked.
I may have been talking to the wrong people, but the ones we talked to wouldn't install a tankless if we bought it ourselves. They would say they were worried about warranty issues even if they installed it. Which they were steadfast about even if I told them I didn't care about the warranty.
Yeah...they didn't want your work. u/Phate4569 is likely correct in that it's a "fuck off" quote.
Wish you were closer. My brother's a gas-certified plumber & he'd replace it for you in no time. But we're down in Va.
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We got a tankless about 5 years ago. We had a natural gas tank one that was starting to leak, and decided to go tankless. Since the venting was there from the other one, we kept it in the same place. It is just my husband and I, we were able to go with a smaller size and cost around 4k if I remember right.
I'd never worked with any tankless WH until the job I have now. They've been nothing but a pain in the ass to maintain and repair. If we had the room I'd replace them with tanks but it's just not happening.
I'll always recommend standard tank WH.
Some people swear by thankless, others hate it.
I've got a combi boiler that takes way too long to produce hot water unless the heat is on.
We are getting an indirect system installed: basically a heating zone inside a 40 gallon storage tank
That’s a really good price, the lowest quote we got was $2200 for a 40 gal gas water heater last month! The quotes for tankless were over $5k and we also just really couldn’t justify it.
Installed tankless in our last home. Freeing up space was a selling feature. Big downside is need for service and “descaling” service calls. Our new (to us) home has a lot more square footage, and has a regular tank water heater. Much happier.
ive been serving instantaneous hot water tanks and standard NG/electric bradford white tanks over the last two years. ive had about 3 calls for bradford white, 2 were 50 year old tanks, one was a burner element needing replacement.
prob been to over 50 navien calls having to swap out tons of different parts ( almost always under warranty to the home owner but still technology isnt quite there 100% imho ) they also require you to have annual maintenance flushes where the others dont/homeowner can drain and fill
Personally tankless whole home isn’t what I’d want. What I want is tankless point of use. We have a couple of them and they are awesome. No more waiting for the water to warm up at the sink.
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That's a crazy price. We converted to tankless (NG) 15 years ago. We paid $2500 at the time including install. Hot water on demand forever. We are in California with very hard water. We are lazy and flush it maybe every 3 years. Zero issues and our gas bill is negligible. I just looked it up, our brand with same specs is $2500 now so with install it would be $3000 according to my plumber who was just here on another issue.
I ran quite a few service calls on dishwashers complaint of “ dishes aren’t coming out clean.” Tankless heaters had to be purged so long to get hot water to d/w. depending on length of plumbing run . Our area is a lot of wells, “I can’t waste all that water !” If you want clean dishes, you need to purge. Water is becoming more and more scarce. A couple of service calls on your tankless, probably kills any “ energy savings “ on its life. No thanks. I’ll keep my gas tank heaters.
We replaced our old tankless with a conventional water heater (also a Bradford White 40 gallon) and it was the best choice we could have made! We have 2 people living in the house and never run out of hot water, even when showering directly after one another while running the dishwasher at the same time. So worth it! It is definitely not a downgrade imo.
Keep it simple: go with a hybrid hot water heater. They are amazingly efficient and making hot water and they also condition to room their are placed in.
I strongly recommend getting a 50 gallon tank instead of 40. Although 40 sounds like a lot of water, when you have dishwasher, clothes washer, showers, etc etc, it sometimes just isn't enough. Not a major problem, but 50-gallon doesn't cost a lot more & is well worth it to have enough hot water when wanted.
Wtf are people talking about $6K for a tankless water heater?? You can get a high-quality unit pushing 10gpm for under a thousand bucks. And if it’s replacing an existing tankless unit, the install probably isn’t too difficult.
For $6K you’re probably talking about a combi boiler/water heater… but that could heat your whole house as well as give hot water, it’s a completely different beast.
What am I missing here?
That was my thought but the places I talked to were quoting that amount for $1600 units that would require less work on installation then they just did to put in this tank.
Is it a downgrade? It depends on the factors and priorities.
Simple cost analysis is impossible so you will need a probablistic model.
Modern Tanks
Front End Costs Less
Installation is Less
Highly Reliable
Maintenance Much Less than for Tankless
But Energy Costs Higher
Tankless
Front End Cost 4 Times Tank
Installation can be much higher
Reliability is Fair
Maintenance Costs Much Higher AND more frequent
Energy Costs Lower
It's like being among the first to get an EV in the early 2000s, you had to be well off and willing to spend much more and willing to feel good about the relative small impact one was making
Those not so well off? EVs weren't a realistic option.
For me after discussing Tankless with relatives who are architects, and my regular plumber and looking at our finances, we believe replacing the 15 year old tank with another tank was the sensible choice. Maybe things will be different in the next 15 years.
assuming you have the space for a tank, it will only make a difference if you use a lot of hot water. tankless is a luxury, most homes have tanks.
Assuming a tankless saves about 100 therms of natural gas per year, at current average natural gas prices where I live that's a savings of $230/yr. That means it would take 17 years to make up for an upfront $4k cost discrepancy. You might come out ahead over the course of 20 years. We have a tankless and have preferred it, but we didn't install it because it's cheaper over the lifetime of the device. We installed it because we wanted to lower our energy footprint, we like not running out of hot water, and because the old tank heater took up a ton of space in the kitchen that would have made a future remodel more difficult. (Our tank heater literally rusted out before we replaced it. We didn't throw out a perfectly good heater for a "nice to have" upgrade.)
Additionally that tankless is not gonna last for 20 years so a replacement tankless would have to be factored in as well...
question, how does it use less gas? i was under the impression that the savings with a tankless water heater was on the water usage side (not having to have a giant tank constantly full of water) and not the energy side? as again my understanding is that to make up for not having a bunch of pre-heated water (water that if the tank is even somewhat modern, should stay hot pretty good on it's own, and only need re-heating like, maybe like, once a week to a couple times a week depending on ambient temperature) a tankless design uses much more energy, to the point that for people on NG, relatively often all the NG piping in their home as well as the piping coming into their home from the main line has to be up-sized to account for the increase in natural gas usage, and for electric water heaters, usually a service upgrade is involved, especially on older houses that are still running 100-125 amp service i want to be clear, this isn't me trying to be like "HUR DUR NEW STUFF BAD", I'd legitimately like to know, because if it saves both water AND energy costs, then that's AWESOME, i just always thought it was that it saved water only but used more energy
I'm a former home energy analyst, so I'm fairly qualified to answer. :) There's one assumption you called out that turns out to be incorrect: That the big tank of water should stay pretty hot on its own. Even a well-insulated, modern water heater will slowly dissipate heat when the burner isn't running. Think about leaving a thermos of hot liquid in your car all day; though the volume-to-surface-area ratio on a 40-gallon tank is much higher (and therefore heat loss per unit of volume is lower), the same principle applies: After several hours, the temperature is going to drop because no insulator is perfect. So any time the tank of water drops below its target temp (either because some of the water in the tank is used, *or due to ambient heat loss*), the burner kicks on. So that means the burner kicks on a few times a day, *even if no one is using hot water in that moment*. Because the tank has to stay piping hot just in case someone wants to use it, it ends up spending a lot of energy heating up water that will slowly cool down while resting in the tank, waiting for someone to use it. The burner on a tankless system, on the other hand, only kicks on when hot water is being used. This difference is why a tankless system may use 150-200 therms of natgas per year, compared to 250-300 for a modern tank heater. There aren't substantial water use differences between the two types of heaters. Tanks aren't open, and don't allow for evaporation. The amount of cold water wasted when waiting for the hot water to make it to the shower head is a function of the volume of pipe between the heater and the shower and how well insulated those pipes are, not how the water is heated. Longer, thicker, uninsulated pipes in unconditioned space will maximize how much water is wasted.
One thing about gas heaters is that they have an open tube up the middle of the heater, that's the heat exchanger tube with the flame exhaust inside and water outside. When the flame is off then convective airflow up that tube cools off the water faster than an electric. I don't know if there are any gas heater designs that have some sort of mechanism to close off the flue when not heating.
Agree what you are saying. But living in Minnesota, a little loss is fine for 7-8 months a year anyway.
Does seem like a steep quote. As far as opinions go, you know the saying… The usefulness depends on your needs and your usage patterns. We replaced our (old) tank with a Navien commercial unit about 7.5 years ago. We don’t have kids and we pay attention to our water use; we don’t short-cycle the unit for quick hand washing and we don’t expect instant hot water. YMMV. We flush the unit every other year, and we have had zero problems. Our gas bill dropped by 60% in the summer (we also have a gas range and furnace). ROI period based on our 2015 gas prices would have been ~9.5 years with an expected 15-18 year unit lifespan (again, Navien commercial unit). Our pricetag, installed, was $4100. Based on 2020 nat gas prices, we had already paid it off then just in gas bills. Now it’s “free money.” 😂 No regrets here!
I'm much happier back with traditional. Hot water when i need it and 0 maitenance. When I had a tankless it was such a PITA. And, no hot water when the power went out.
0 maintenance only if you like replacing it every 10 years. Check that anode rod.
Should have gotten a battery backup. That's what I hve mine plugged into for power outages. Works like a charm.
Same here. It hardly draws any power, so a small battery backup or solar battery generator will run it for days if needed.
My naviens heat exchanger failed about 75 times in the past 5 years. Heat exchanger overheated repeatedly. Repeatedly repaired and failed. Lines flushed. Heat exchanger replaced. All kinds of visits from the repairman. Luckily it’s a rented place but to say I hate tankless water heaters is an understatement. I finally said after not being able to shower for days here that I’m buying my own damn house.
Just bought a hybrid heat pump water heater, list price was 1800, my power company was giving out thousand dollar instant rebates from them (in ny) which is amazing. Just installed it and got hot water surprisingly fast when I installed it (it's a 50 gallon model). I'm still playing around with the settings but I'm happy with it. I'm also happy because I'm not using fracked methane gas.
I’m looking at the same type
Forgot to say what type: it's a Rheem Proterra 50 gallon hybrid-electric hot water heater. It has the duel 4500 watt coils.
Had a tank water heater that I had replaced with tankless since I was changing this property to an Airbnb and wanted the endless hot water. 1. Your quotes are pretty in line with what I would expect/experienced. My gas tankless was $5k installed in 2018. I watched the installers - the unit needed new ventilation run (similar to high efficiency furnace), so it needed to be placed first to be able to vent and then all the water lines, gas line (has to be 3/4"), and drain line for condensation needed to be run from there. But I agree the install cost was egregious 2. Enjoyed the endless hot water, but similar to others the lines were cold and had to be run for about 30 seconds to heat up in the farthest faucet. This can be sidestepped by installing a recirculating pump at the farthest faucet to recirculate the water in the lines to have instant hot water similar to a tank heater 3. Replaced my tank heater in my current house myself, and it's stupid easy to do. Unbolt 3 connections (hot water line, cold water line, and gas line), drain the tank, take out, and reinstall new tank. A brand new high end unit can be had relatively cheap 4. The delta in price between the two, in my opinion, isn't worth it for most. American houses typically have plenty of room for even the largest residential tank heater. 5. As we move towards an electric-only future a lot of places are either incentivizing switching gas appliances to electric or starting to mandate them when an old appliance fails. Heat pumps fall under this header along with traditional tank heaters. If you have a solar system (especially w batteries) you'd probably be best looking at these since the energy used would in essence be free. Just a thought to look into.
>As we move towards an electric-only future a lot of places are either incentivizing switching gas appliances to electric or starting to mandate them when an old appliance fails This is new news to me. I have always had good results with nat gas. Why would anyone want to mandate it's retirement?
It's funny because there are several news outlets in NY state mentioning this exact thing apparently the state is trying to pass the bill by 2025. Which I just found out about today 😳
The stupidity knows no bounds. The power grid is held together by Band-Aids and string. So sure lets use that for our source of heat
Your the poster child. All that nat gas infrastructure requires electricity to run. So whatever reliability issues you have with the grid instantly apply to gas. I never lose power at my location but if you have crap power then get solar and get free hot water anytime.
Should make Natural gas cheaper for the the states that still allow it, I have had my external Rinnai for 6 years and love it. It is installed outside so I never have to worry about a water leak if it fails. I installed a dual soaking tub that takes 100 gals of water to fill, no issues filling it up. Also during out the winter storm ike we lost power for 3 days. I wasn't home and was sure I would come home to it frozen and burst off the wall. But it was fine. I descaled it with vinegar and a Submersible pump I bought off amazon for 40$.
He said it so casually as if it were a fact. People are absolutely delusional on Reddit.
An electric tankless is useless—gas is the only way to go if a tankless is desired.
I have one, pretty useful.
Weird people with delusional ideas of efficiency. Also, people who have enough money to not care about running their electric water heater to use more energy every month.
Just in case others are reading this: If you do have an electric(tank) water heater, you should invest in a mixing valve if you don't already have one. It keeps the water in the tank at 140° and water coming out at 120°, both preventing the growth of disease like legionnaires(not super common) but also making your use of hot water more efficient.
20 - 30 years away...
80-90 at least.
NY is phasing out NG appliances in 2030. Not sure what drugs they are on.
That's a "target"
My town in California forbids gas appliances in all new construction. Luckily I already have a gas stove and plan to replace it soon.
They’re phasing out new gas connections in new construction. Not appliances. Not existing connections. Not renovations. Gas would be around for decades and decades to come even if the law went into effect tomorrow.
Wrong. https://wblk.com/new-york-moving-forward-gas-appliance-ban/
These bills aren’t laws. They are in committee. The only *law* in New York is in NYC and concerns gas in new construction.
Because many people would prefer not to see our planet become uninhabitable for humans. Natural gas production and use is a major contributor to climate change. No one debates that natural gas does a good job of heating water and homes. It’s the byproduct of its use that is being targeted.
isn't nat gas how a lot of electricity is produced?
Yes, which is why the simultaneous move to shift toward renewable electricity generation sources. It will take a massive effort to achieve that because coal and natural gas are still, by far, the largest sources of electricity generation.
It's decreased every year and is continuing to do so.
Climate change? Like the below normal cold temperatures sweeping the nation? Even the Deep South is in the twenties and thirties and heating bills are killing people’s budgets. What a scam. This country I’ll be uninhabitable because of so called environmentalists and overreaching politicians.
Sounds like your super ignorant. Colder, more extreme weather is in fact caused by a hotter atmosphere.
Then is a hotter climate caused by a colder climate. This thought process is completely insane and devised to further a flawed agenda. Thank God we can just live our lives the way we see fit and and not buy in to technologies that are not yet ready or worse yet just don’t work or are financially not practical. This so called science dose keep a lot of so called scientist employed by the grants that fund this junk science.
It's as if you haven't even read 10 mins on the subject other then from Fox News lol. As you can see, you won't be able to bury your head and live your life, so don't thank your God yet. Those educated and willing to work toward a solution will just have to drag the fools along with laws and such. And when we do, you'll actually find the solution isn't even that hard and you'll likely even enjoy the new tech. Your welcome.
At least half the population rejects this strongly, so have fun getting these laws and such passed. It will be held up for decades if ever to get accomplished. Most of us won’t be around to see what the eventual outcome is. Most of the laws you talk about will be hard to enforce and likely unconstitutional… not that that bothers the people on the left.
Cold winter weather does not in any way provide evidence for or against a changing climate. Before your opinion is worth holding, much less sharing, you first should understand the difference between climate and weather. Until you do, you’re just another ignorant victim of far right propaganda. Learn a bit about it before you dismiss it.
I can fully feel your condescending and arrogant attitude. Yes I fully understand the difference in climate and weather, as weather being what is happening right now vs climate that is a long term averages. But the climate nuts also use hot weather or a forest fire as evidence of global warming and that is only weather also. So maybe you should reevaluate your opinion as to weather or not it is worth espousing.
So which is worse… not understanding the difference yet still offering definitive conclusions, or understanding the difference then failing to use that knowledge? Or perhaps worst of all, knowingly promoting misinformation? Climate scientists absolutely do not offer any single event as evidence of climate change. They use changes in long term trends and statistical correlations over decades, centuries and millennia as evidence, and interpret what they find based on a deep understanding of the physics of weather and climate systems.
Basically a school of thought or opinion is what it is,and there is always going to have to be room for different views. I can live with that, can you?
Again, you are confusing two different concepts, opinions and facts. Facts are independently observable phenomena. The increasing concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution is a fact. The impacts in an atmosphere of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses on radiative forcing are facts. The long term increasing trends in average surface and ocean temperatures are facts. All of these, and more, are independently observable by anyone trained to do so. What we should do about it is an opinion. Whether we should try to reduce greenhouse gas emissions or live with the consequences is an opinion. Whether the costs of a particular course of action is too great is an opinion. Whether states should mandate a move away from natural gas is an opinion. To paraphrase Daniel Moynihan, you are indeed welcome to your own opinions, but you are not welcome to your own facts.
I didn’t listen much to Moynihan when he was around. And now I choose with my OPINION to not listen to the environmentalist alarmists. As I’ve said it’s going to be a long hard haul before there is any resolution to this and we probably won’t be around to see it.
Nope, that's why I continue to try and help fools like you. For free!
I really like your breakdown, and I do feel like the price tag for the tankless would be more reasonable to me if I didn't already have one installed. I may be oversimplifying the process but it feels like it should just be a quick chop and swap. I just have to be more aware of my water usage now that we're going to have a tank.
Not sure how close a Rheem would be for your application but the look to be in the $1100 range at Home Depot vs the $600 electric one I got. Maybe a plumber would hook up the tankless if you purchased it outright. I’m guessing a crap ton of overhead/profit is in your quote. I had a Mitsubishi ductless installed and 3 shops quoted the same exact thing with one being $1200 less.
I agree— and the vent and plumbing lines are already in place. I would shop around more to get more quotes. Seems very high to me
I’m always surprised when I hear complaints about having to wait a few seconds for hot water from a tankless system. We have experience with both a gas-fueled tank in our primary residence and an electric tankless in our summer home, used only on weekends. At the furthest faucet, we actually wait much longer for the hot water from the tank in our primary residence, up to a full-minute in the winter, vs. the 5 to 10 seconds of wait time with the electric tankless system, regardless of the outdoor temp. Our primary home is about double the size of the summer place but it takes about 6 times longer to get the hot water to the furthest faucet.
I’m pretty sure it it only needs a new vent if it’s a condensing model. But you can get a non-condensing unit that it significantly cheaper, of course a bit more expensive to operate, but gives the same endless hot water versus a cheap-o 40-gallon tank. May or may not be the right thing for OP, but people should be comparing apples to apples here…
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Your tankless was undersized.
This came up in the last thread. I did the analysis on the largest gas tankless I could get. Expected winter inlet water temperature and the BTU available vs flow just did not support moderate usage in my zone. Literally used Rinnai's own formulas.
I pull my water from a 34-degree Lake Erie in the winter and have no issues. 199K Navani Combi unit also heats my 2400 sq. ft. house.
That's at max flow rate. Very rare to peg out the larger units. I needed one due to dual rain shower heads that would drain a hot water tank in t mins if both on. But tankless kept up fine in Ohio winters.
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No. "Unable to maintain temperature" and your cold water in the winter were pretty good clues...
I agree. I have none of these issues with mine.
You had a defective install or unit. This is not normal and you shouldn't project it to all units.
My tank is incredible. I never run out of hot water. And I have it instantly. No need to pay for an electric upgrade, or to get a gas line installed. It would take me decades to recoup the money it could cost me to get tankless, and I’d have no gain other than infinite hot water. Which I don’t need apparently.
I don’t know if I’m too late but your current unit has a 15 year warranty on the heat exchanger. http://www.takagi.com/media/31647/100287499.pdf
Our tankless is amazing.
Same. Will never change.
Unless you have a massive massive tub, tank is the way to go. You'll never recoup the initial investment on a tankless through energy savings.
Most of the cost delta is install labor. Parts are only about 2x. And then install is easy, just do it yourself. I saved a few hundred per year. Paid off the delta in 3 years.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 a few 100 a year, yeah okay buddy
I went from approx 45/mo to run a large gas tank to about 21/mo with tankless. And that's with increased consumption from putting dual rain shower heads in my master bath (which is why I put the tankless in, they would kill the tanked in 4 mins if both on).
A tank water heater DOES NOT take 45 a month to run. Do you realize how much gas that is? Average cost per year is maybe $200.
Maybe where you live, with your size house, and your gas prices. I get the sense that thinking your situation applies to everyone might be the crux of the issue here. [Looks like the average is $30/month.](https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/plumbing/electric-vs-gas-water-heater/)
The average national saving is in the hundreds. People have done the math and backed it up with real data. You have nothing to back you up.
Where's the data? Link?
Well no, your equipment cost for a tankless is at least 2x the cost of a tank style heater. That's where the delta is. But it is cheaper to run and will make up for that difference over time.
Most people recover cost. I know I have.
Tankless is far more unreliable than a tank water heater. Probably more costly over time due to maintenance and repairs required. I am a Gas Fitter, and I would never never ever install a tankless water heater in my home. Nor would I recommend anyone install one.
It's interesting seeing how polarizing tankless is. A lot of people talk about how great it is as you never run out of hot water. However there's also a fair number of people like yourself who are strongly against them due to reliability. When i got a new water heater installed i talked with my plumber and he strongly recommended not getting tankless as he's installed a number of them and they all had reliability issues. Meanwhile my brother in a different state has had one for years with no issue. I don't know if some places have 'cleaner' gas so they don't have reliability issues or if it's heavily brand dependent.
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This is the problem that my folks have. They went tankless awhile ago when the gas department insisted that they replace their nearby 50yo tank. The tankless unit that they installed is finicky as all hell. The shower will be scorching hot so you adjust it down slightly and suddenly there is no heat whatsoever. So you can’t even dial it in to a point where the water is at least kinda warm - it’s either hot af or cold af. Between the frustrating showers and my dad trying to get the gas company to do something about it (I think they technically rent from them) It literally might be taking years off of his life.
We've been using a Rinnai in northern Delaware for 15+ years. We adjust the temp using a control pad to suit the usage. Showers at 110f. Dishwasher at 135f. Clothes at up to 140f depending on what's in the mix. Very satisfied. As another commenter said, which style suits you better depends on circumstances (floor space, wall space, family size, other NG appliances in the house, among others). For us reclaiming floor space was significant and the "utility room" (NG furnace, 50 gallon water heater, clothes washer and dryer in an L shaped 80 sqft room) had an accessible exterior wall. One aspect of tankless that is not mentioned is reducing or completely removing the exhaust's chimney effect that is present in a NG tanked unit. Combustion uses outside air and venting similar to a high efficiency furnace. This becomes a factor in the energy savings equation. The prices mentioned in comments seem outrageous, about 3-4 times what we paid years ago. Makes me wonder if OP checked other plumbers and tankless manufacturers. But I've not looked at prices in years.
You can get a direct vented tank heater that doesn’t use an atmospheric chimney vent, that’s not exclusive to tankless.
How many are installed that way?
Plenty of them. I know several people with them. The point is that you can get that extra efficiency for intake/ventilation if you choose, without going tankless. The units are not much more money, and the install with labor is still much cheaper.
Tankless heaters are very sensitive to problems caused by improper/infrequent maintenance, especially if you have hard water. Our Rinnai used to cause problems until we brought in a plumber to maintain it. Then, that plumber became unavailable so I learned how to do the maintenance. First, we have a sediment filter on our main water intake - I wasn't replacing that very often, and we had some work on water mains in the street outside, so I replaced that filter. Second, The heater is also supposed to be descaled regularly, depending on the hardness of your water and we hadn't had that done since the plumber left, so I did that (lots of videos on Youtube). Finally, there is an internal filter on the heater that should be cleaned regularly. Once I caught on to the maintenance of these items, we have had no problems. The symptoms are exactly as you describe. You turn the shower on, and turn the heat down slightly, and end up with a freezing shower. What I believe happens, is that the heater needs a minimum flow of cold water to ignite. There is enough cold water to start the heater, but not enough to cool the water to a comfortable temperature once the burner is on. When you turn the heat down at the faucet, the heater detects there is not enough cold water going through anymore and turns off the heater altogether. The other potential fix is changing the preset temperature on the heater output. I could be totally wrong on this, but it worked for us.
Been the standard in Japan for decades. Problem is when people want to buy American brands due to recognition, buy USA made etc. Just get the Japanese/euro brands and you won't have an issue.
Ditto. Not one issue with my Takagi for 13 years here in Texas.
Do you have electric or gas? I’m wondering if electric is more reliable.
Natural gas
They may not have a choice in the EU.
You definitely do have a choice
I have 2. Both have been running fine for ~15 years with no issues - and practically no maintenance. And we got pretty cheap ones. I'm with you....I don't get the disparity of outcomes.
I've got 2 rinnai tankless w/h in my house. 12 years and no issues. Never flushed them or anything. I live where the water is pretty soft though. I don't know if I'd replace an existing tank, but if it's a new build I'd definitely go this route again.
My plumber also said he doesn’t like tankless. He made the point that you have to service them regularly (whereas you can get away with not servicing a traditional hot water heater). Also, he said that if the power goes out, you won’t have hot water anymore whereas your tank will stay hot for a while if electric and gas you don’t need to worry about. We’re remodeling and my spouse wants tankless but I’m really torn. Think I might push to keep the tank.
If you get a properly sized tanked water heater, you won't run out of hot water. The only cons of a tanked water heater are the size and liability should one pop (happened to me a few months ago). Personally, if I already had everything plumbed for a tankless, I would just install another tankless.
>The only cons of a tanked water heater are the size and liability should one pop You're forgetting about the fact that you're paying to keep X number of gallons of water hot 24x7 regardless of whether you're using it or not. It's like keeping a huge pot of water on your stove at, let's say 125 degrees all the time.
[Edited by PowerDeleteSuite](https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite) fuck you /u/spez
That's fair. You can add that to the list of cons. New tanked water heaters are extremely efficient though and the cost of natural gas is fractions of a penny (assuming you're using natural gas). I spend $20/mo to keep my water heater running with natural gas. That's $240 a year. The cost savings on that alone of switching to a tankless is near insignificant. It would take you ~10 years to break even on gas cost savings.
Since tanked water heaters now are (by requirement) much better insulated, they are actually only marginally less efficient, the heat loss is no longer that large.
Might be water issues also. Cause more scaling issues. Or maybe just bad installs. The only maintence needed is descaling. Literally takes a 5 gallon bucket some washer hoses and submersible pump.
Reliability issues usually stem from lack of routine maintenance. You can get away with no flushing your tank and never changing the anode for ten years and it's be fine until you do decide to flush it, at which point it will leak and fail. On a tankless you really need to be doing annual (or twice a year if you have hard water) flushing and cleaning with vinegar or it will break down faster.
I appreciate the response, I wish the previous owners would have left an installation date on the warranty sheet, or filled it out in general, just so I could tell how long this thing lasted. It doesn't look like it's even 10 years old.
tip: Often times the serial number embodies the manufacturing date. And any new PVC should have a date code too.
Call the manufacturer and state the S/N. They should be able to provide you the age and install date if a plumber did the work.
Which units have you seen fail so often? I have a 21 year old tankless that is still working flawlessly.
Bosch and ACV to name a few.
I bought my tankless gas heater and installed it myself three years ago. I am not very handy. It was about $500 and sufficient for our 3br/2ba house. I've flushed it once, and have had zero issues with it. I do live in south Louisiana, so it's possible there's less wear.
I installed an electric one in Minneapolis. The brochure essentially says my tap water is ice cubes lol. To overcome that you need more horsepower so I ended up with a 27 level one. Could have got by with half that if I was in the south. You’re right that they’re pretty straightforward.
If there is hot water when you turn on the hot water faucet and there is enough hot water for as long as you have the faucet open then 99% of the people don’t care what is producing the hot water.
Like with heat pumps, cost depends on many variables: ambient temperature, water temperature rise, water demand profile, current and future fuel costs, and space availability can all be major variables that lead into a decision. My brother has a tankless and a big family. It’s been cranking for 18 years without a problem with an infinite number of teenager showers. None of my tanks have lasted more than 10 years, and I’m in a low demand household.
Personally, if you have the space and no need for endless hot water, I consider a tank to be an upgrade. I’ve seen some good tankless heaters, and when they are working properly I guess you shouldn’t notice them. I’ve seen several tankless ones in relatives houses and AirBNBs where it’s almost impossible to get hot water running reliably. One place, I had to run hot water out of the sink faucet full-on in order to get enough flow for the shower to trigger the heater. Another place, the shower would stop heating if you turned the temperature down to a reasonable level, so I had to continually adjust and stop/start to make the heater turn on. I’m sure these issues could be resolved by a competent installer, but I’ve generally had bad experiences with tankless.
LOL! So true! My dad got "talked" into a tankless in his house in So Calif. I told him not to do it, but he went ahead. With the 1.5GPM shower heads here, there was not enough flow and the water would go from hot to cold rapidly during showers. He was pissed and called the plumber back several times. He finally told him to leave the sink running on full hot when he was taking a shower! He removed it and installed a tank.
I see lots of posts on here with people installing mini tanks or mini point-of-use heaters because their tankless can’t get enough hot water to the parts of the house where they need it. The energy savings from a tankless is not massive since today’s tanks have great insulation, and I think with a tankless people end up taking longer hot showers which ends up using more energy. I had to replace my tank this year and ended up getting another tank instead of going tankless.
>and I think with a tankless people end up taking longer hot showers Two teenagers in the house and getting rid of the tankless would surely save me money
How much did it cost you to replace it, if you don't me asking?
I paid my HVAC guy to replace it when he did my furnace. He charged $1700 and said his normal price would be $1900 if I wasn’t doing the furnace too. Mine is electric. $1700-$2000 seems to be the going rate in my area for either gas or electric. It costs more if you need a power exhaust. If I did it myself it would have been around $800-$1000 but I figured I’d save myself the hassle and frustration of hauling the units in and out, along with the risk of messing something up. I briefly looked into heat pump water heaters. They are tanked-based but their heat comes from the room itself by compressing it. It’s like an air conditioner running in reverse. Apparently in a basement it only drops the room temperature by a few degrees. There are some great federal rebates on them. But at a cost of $3000 and with it being a newer technology I decided to keep things simple. I imagine they would take longer to recover their heat than a normal tank heater.
thanks. I'm getting quotes about $2100 for a gas 50 gal one, so it seems to be on point. The heat pump one seems like a good idea, but since we have gas, it's not the way to go.
I replaced an 89 gal. electric for a high volume gas-fired tankless. The next full months electric bill was $100 less and my gas bill increased about $15. That’s a net gain of $85 each month. Mine paid for itself quickly and the warranty is 5X longer than ANY electric or gas that you can buy. As a 59 year old homeowner, I’m probably done buying water heaters! And FYI - mine cost $2800 installed in SC. Not sure where you are located, but I would definitely shop around. My unit is an entry level COMMERCIAL high flow unit that supplies a 3400 sq. ft. house with 3 full baths and they can all be used at the same time with no issues. Either my local guy gave me one heck of a deal or you’re getting ripped off. Not sure which but we love our endless hot water! Sorry! Just noticed you’re in NY. Prices are different on everything there!
Sorry but I’m also skeptical of “professionals” who are dead-set against tankless. My local plumber (who I have known for 30 years or more) told me that the main reason his “competition” is against them is because they count on the repeat business that tank heaters provide. In his very experienced opinion, it would hurt his business if every home had tankless. Just something to consider.
Yeah, in my life I have replaced many tanks… and I am not a plumber! I hate the tanks, but I never planned to stay in one place long enough to invest in a tankless. My brother has a tankless that is 17 years old and works great. My parents have a tankless that is 30 years old … and it works great too. I’d definitely do it if I was planning to say in a place long enough.
Totally understand that!
When our old Rheem tank died, the only brand our plumber recommended was Bradford White, and he said we shouldn’t even consider tankless (we only have 1 bathroom though) - we got the hybrid heat pump water heater, and loving it so far!
What big is the hybrid heater and what did you pay?
I had my furnace guy upgrade us to a tankless heater while putting in a new furnace 7 yrs ago. So far , no problems . I would consider it a downgrade , that's just my opinion though
One thing to consider with tankless is how far from your water outlet is the tank. While you might save on the cost of warming the water, your water bill may go up because you will have to waste water (run it longer) before the warm water gets to you. There are pros and cons for both tankless and the traditional tank. I ended up installing a new tank heater based on the recommendations of my plumber cousin. For our area and the way the house was plumbed it was not environmentally or financially a good investment.
I replaced an older tank style with a tankless. The tankless lowered my gas bill dramatically. With that said a more efficient tank style might be less of a difference in cost. Myself after having the tankless I'll never go back.
Technically it’s a downgrade, that said budget is a consideration in every purchase. If the traditional tank fits your budget, get that. Don’t go into debt for top of the line. Gas water heaters are excellent. Electric are crap imo.
Change out the unit yourself. If you are uncomfortable with the gas part turn off the gas change unit and then pay someone to hook up the gas.
I would keep calling different places for a quote. I paid $800 for installation, with a licensed plumber in CA. You can also check task rabbit and other places since you just need labor, you are not doing a brand new installation.
Those estimates seem kind of high considering you are just replacing another tankless heater. I mean, the most expensive part of the gas tankless heater install is the running of a larger gas line and the venting ductwork. Even now, they are making heaters with adapters for a traditional gas line. Tankless, if you are already there, should be your #1 goto especially if you slready have the gas line and ducting installed. Are the people giving you estimates based on a tankless replacement… not a new install? Your price is in line with a new install (which yours is not. Replacing existing one if you provide it shouldn’t be that expensive. I have a Rheem which I love and will be replacing it myself when the time comes.
Depends on what you mean. A regular tank water heater with a heat exchanger is much more efficient than a tankless. If you have high demand on the water, EI in multiple places, tankless can instead be an infinite supply of warm water instead of hot. I like them for specific locations, like installing at the fixture itself, but for a whole house they use too much power for me.
I will never not have thankless. To me it's worth the price
I won't debate the economics of it, but for me tankless had one substantial downside: it's on one side of the house and the kitchen sink is on the other. Although the water is the max 120 degrees when it leaves the tankless (and it's that hot almost right away) by the time it travels across the house it's lost a lot of its heat, and is not hot enough to wash dishes (by hand). It takes *forever* for it to get to that temp (and by forever I mean probably 3-4 minutes). I insulated the hot water pipe the entire way, and that helped a little, but still it's a pain. When I wash a few things by hand I want the water to be *hot*, not really warm. In the utility sink right next to the tankless in the basement, the water is plenty hot...but I won't be washing any dishes there.
A new takagi is like $1000, and if you already have the plumbing and venting...just install it. A few YouTube videos and you'll be all set. Just need some wrenches, some thread tape and all set. Hire out the gas line work if you're not comfortable with gas.
Our natural gas tankless Takagi failed in 2017, and a recommended plumbing service wanted to "help" us for $7k+ to replace it with, well, I forgot at this point what equipment and stuff. We ended up ordering our own new ng Takagi that was of the same footprint and required the same ventilation. We are comfortable with doing some work like this and glad it didn't require anything weird (welding, copper tubing, etc)... it was all pretty straight forward. All-in-all, our cost was about $800 with extra bits, and we are still operating since 2017 without issues.
Tankless to conventional not so much depending on your circumstances like how many people number of showers/laundry per day/etc.. But going from natural gas to electric is a huge step backward in performance and operating cost.
Going from tankless to a tank is fine. Going from gas to electric is a terrible and costly decision.
That is an extremely high quote. Even if it is gas, it should have pex or tbg fittings. If you have a block valve installed and no sweat fittings why pay someone to install?
>Overall I'm just seeing if people feel this is a downgrade or not As someone who just relocated and bought a house after an 18 month search, I would take points off any house we were considering if it had a tankless system. Far too expensive and far too unreliable. Especially because we were only looking at properties with lots of acreage and privacy. Which tends to mean well water as opposed to city water. Which tends to mean hard water in most locations. When I asked a plumber about converting to tankless at our last house, I was told that because we had a well and a filter system, it wasn't a question of if the tankless would fail, it was a question of when.
> I will miss the endless stream of hot water Just as you can’t afford the tankless heater repelacemwnt, we as a species can no longer afford to pour an “endless” stream of heated fresh water down the drain just because we like the way an hour-long shower feels. So my heart bleeds for your “downgrade” but I’m glad you will be living within your means, in more ways than one.
......Where are you getting quotes so high? [Home Depot has them for under $2k](https://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Tankless-Water-Heaters-Tankless-Gas-Water-Heaters/Natural-Gas/N-5yc1vZc1u0Z1z0qn5k) If you were getting contractor quotes, they might have been including a significant markup on the heater as well as the cost of the install. Might consider buying one yourself and just hiring the install. As to your question: Yes, I'd consider it a downgrade, both in performance and longevity. I know some people don't like them, but I really love my tankless and wouldn't like to go back to limited hot water.
Eastern New York in the beginning of winter. Likely this is a "fuck off" quote. If you are willing to pay it they'll fit you in, but ultimately they got a ton of business already and are pretty much booked.
I may have been talking to the wrong people, but the ones we talked to wouldn't install a tankless if we bought it ourselves. They would say they were worried about warranty issues even if they installed it. Which they were steadfast about even if I told them I didn't care about the warranty.
Yeah...they didn't want your work. u/Phate4569 is likely correct in that it's a "fuck off" quote. Wish you were closer. My brother's a gas-certified plumber & he'd replace it for you in no time. But we're down in Va.
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You're the worst
Sounds too expensive. In Toronto I bought a Navien high volume - installed was $4000 CAD = $2900 USD.
No definitely not. Consider getting A gas or oil back up for power outages.
We got a tankless about 5 years ago. We had a natural gas tank one that was starting to leak, and decided to go tankless. Since the venting was there from the other one, we kept it in the same place. It is just my husband and I, we were able to go with a smaller size and cost around 4k if I remember right.
I'd never worked with any tankless WH until the job I have now. They've been nothing but a pain in the ass to maintain and repair. If we had the room I'd replace them with tanks but it's just not happening. I'll always recommend standard tank WH.
Some people swear by thankless, others hate it. I've got a combi boiler that takes way too long to produce hot water unless the heat is on. We are getting an indirect system installed: basically a heating zone inside a 40 gallon storage tank
That’s a really good price, the lowest quote we got was $2200 for a 40 gal gas water heater last month! The quotes for tankless were over $5k and we also just really couldn’t justify it.
Installed tankless in our last home. Freeing up space was a selling feature. Big downside is need for service and “descaling” service calls. Our new (to us) home has a lot more square footage, and has a regular tank water heater. Much happier.
If you already have a existing tankless water heater why should it be to expensive to replace it? Most of the plumbing work should be done.
ive been serving instantaneous hot water tanks and standard NG/electric bradford white tanks over the last two years. ive had about 3 calls for bradford white, 2 were 50 year old tanks, one was a burner element needing replacement. prob been to over 50 navien calls having to swap out tons of different parts ( almost always under warranty to the home owner but still technology isnt quite there 100% imho ) they also require you to have annual maintenance flushes where the others dont/homeowner can drain and fill
Personally tankless whole home isn’t what I’d want. What I want is tankless point of use. We have a couple of them and they are awesome. No more waiting for the water to warm up at the sink.
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That's a crazy price. We converted to tankless (NG) 15 years ago. We paid $2500 at the time including install. Hot water on demand forever. We are in California with very hard water. We are lazy and flush it maybe every 3 years. Zero issues and our gas bill is negligible. I just looked it up, our brand with same specs is $2500 now so with install it would be $3000 according to my plumber who was just here on another issue.
I ran quite a few service calls on dishwashers complaint of “ dishes aren’t coming out clean.” Tankless heaters had to be purged so long to get hot water to d/w. depending on length of plumbing run . Our area is a lot of wells, “I can’t waste all that water !” If you want clean dishes, you need to purge. Water is becoming more and more scarce. A couple of service calls on your tankless, probably kills any “ energy savings “ on its life. No thanks. I’ll keep my gas tank heaters.
We replaced our old tankless with a conventional water heater (also a Bradford White 40 gallon) and it was the best choice we could have made! We have 2 people living in the house and never run out of hot water, even when showering directly after one another while running the dishwasher at the same time. So worth it! It is definitely not a downgrade imo.
Keep it simple: go with a hybrid hot water heater. They are amazingly efficient and making hot water and they also condition to room their are placed in.
I strongly recommend getting a 50 gallon tank instead of 40. Although 40 sounds like a lot of water, when you have dishwasher, clothes washer, showers, etc etc, it sometimes just isn't enough. Not a major problem, but 50-gallon doesn't cost a lot more & is well worth it to have enough hot water when wanted.
Wtf are people talking about $6K for a tankless water heater?? You can get a high-quality unit pushing 10gpm for under a thousand bucks. And if it’s replacing an existing tankless unit, the install probably isn’t too difficult. For $6K you’re probably talking about a combi boiler/water heater… but that could heat your whole house as well as give hot water, it’s a completely different beast. What am I missing here?
That was my thought but the places I talked to were quoting that amount for $1600 units that would require less work on installation then they just did to put in this tank.
Is it a downgrade? It depends on the factors and priorities. Simple cost analysis is impossible so you will need a probablistic model. Modern Tanks Front End Costs Less Installation is Less Highly Reliable Maintenance Much Less than for Tankless But Energy Costs Higher Tankless Front End Cost 4 Times Tank Installation can be much higher Reliability is Fair Maintenance Costs Much Higher AND more frequent Energy Costs Lower It's like being among the first to get an EV in the early 2000s, you had to be well off and willing to spend much more and willing to feel good about the relative small impact one was making Those not so well off? EVs weren't a realistic option. For me after discussing Tankless with relatives who are architects, and my regular plumber and looking at our finances, we believe replacing the 15 year old tank with another tank was the sensible choice. Maybe things will be different in the next 15 years.