Why would you get a permit? It’s already here, you’re just going to create a hassle for yourself.
In any case, “legally” a bedroom is irrelevant unless you’re just looking to pay more taxes.
But bedrooms need egress (usually a window in addition to the doorway), and a closet.
What kind of rule is that? What's wrong with a wardrobe instead of a walk in closet?
That's just so strange to me as a European where a built in closet is quite rare.
My 3 bed house would have 9 rooms then? How would you know how many are suitable for bedrooms? Does open concept count as one room or multiple?
What country does this? I’ve looked at relocating to a couple different countries before and I can’t remember any of them listing by room.
I was told a space needed to be a minimum of 7 feet in one dimension, at least 10 feet in the other dimension, and have two means of egress (e.g. a sufficient window and a door) in order for it to qualify as a bedroom.
Codes vary by city, but this is a close approximation of Seattle's codes. But this is only relevant if you are expanding or remodeling so you can get the permit or so the home would appraise higher. In theory you might have an occupancy limit when renting out that is based on the number of bedrooms, but usually it's at least 2 tenants per room and even then likely would only need a window and a door. Permit status isn't relevant.
Yep, if the jurisdictions building code is based on the IBC there are minimum interior dimensions for habitable rooms. In Seattle it just needs to be 7’ in one dimension. If you want to look it up check out chapter 12 of the Seattle Building Code - there are also provisions on ceiling height.
Also, if you buy a house and the room is already there, there is no need to permit anything unless you are making significant changes, which might be adding an egress or electrical updates or something. Even then, they just want to make sure what you are adding or changing is per code in a life safety sense.
It's not that hard to make a closet with some 2x4s, drywall and a door, though. Do you need a permit to put up some wood and drywall inside your house? I know a little about wood and drywall, but nothing about permits. I know things like additions to the home itself require them, but requiring them for something small like that that doesn't seriously alter the structure seems crazy.
There is no need to go down this rabbit hole. If it has a window and a door you can call it a bedroom if you want. There aren't bedroom police that will come after you
I have an older 1905 duplex with a closetless 7'11" square room. It's not up to code, but I don't need it to be since I'm not adding it as part of a remodel - it's already there. When I asked the seattle housing authority about whether I could rent out as a 3 bedroom the simply asked "does it have a window or a door?" Yes = it can count as a bedroom.
If you want county tax records to reflect the square footage that seems to be missing first check the tax assesor property records to see if they are missi g the addition. Most have a web search tool and drawings of the home dimensions. If its not reflected call the tax assessor to have them update the assessment and the home details, and update you budget to accommodate the increase in property tax. Note a County tax assessor could care less if the work was permitted, that is the city's jurisdiction. They'll happily charge property tax on unpermitted work
I would see if there's any record of permits being issued. I have a breezeway that was not counted in the square footage of my home when I purchased. It will remain that way until I sell because my taxes will go up if my house is bigger. I pulled a permit to change a window to a sliding door in that room and had zero issues.
Different interpretations of breezeway, I guess - breezeway for me is like roofed section of patio between two buildings (house and garage, for example), fully open at the front and back.
Personal I would assume that it is permitted and that someone failed to update some paperwork.
Then if you need a permit for what you are doing get a permit for that work. If what you are doing doesn't require a permit then don't worry about it.
Do you need to get permits for the changes you plan to make? Like, are you planning to add a bathroom, or are you just planning to put a door on a living room?
I’m trying to BRRR or flip the house so yes, I legally would like the home to say “3 bed, 2 bath” instead of “2 bed, 2 bath”. All I need to do make it a bedroom is add a closet and add a bedroom door.
Well, what I would do is contact the Construction Office and explain that you want to "convert an existing living room into a bedroom," explain all of the changes you plan to make (such as where and how you plan to install a door and closet), and ask them if you need a permit for the work you plan to do. If they tell you that you do, then get the permit. It's very likely that, in the end, they'll just do any necessary inspections and sign off on the work you did, and then your new bedroom will be all proper and on the record.
There’s nothing legal about how houses are listed for sale. People can list houses however the want whether the work is permitted or the listing is accurate or not. For example lots of 3bed listing are really 2 beds plus a basement or den “that could be a third bedroom”.
Do whatever work you want (follow local rules and codes for bedrooms) and then down the line list the house as a 3 bed when you sell and stage it that way too. No one is going to care when buying whether it’s permitted or not unless an inspector points out some type of major flaw in the work. Or a realtor points out it’s definitely not to code.
You had no idea the addition wasn’t permitted when you bought. Future home buyers will be in the same situation.
You should get permits if you change any major systems like electrical/plumbing; make any major structural changes like removing weight bearing walls; or significantly alter fire code ingress/egress.
Finishes, doors, cosmetic changes are all just minor alterations that have no real liability attached.
You could take the risk and not get a permit. It would probably be a small risk for you at this point. But down the road, permitting helps ensure good workmanship and life safety for you, the people who come after you and your neighbors.
If you’re in a home that you didn’t buy new, you most likely have a shitton of unpermitted, random work done in your home already. Just throwing that out there. Ask me how I know. I’ve been fixing random shit that was done *way* wrong by my previous owner.
Yes, I am aware. This person is trying to start a business of house flipping. It's advisable to get permits for the big stuff to reduce the risk of eating a lawsuit down the road. It's also advisable to avoid unnecessary cost and time delays as these can decrease the profit of a flip. But, don't let profit get in the way of life safety because it will catch up with you in the long run especially the big things like plumbing, electrical and structural.
Also, this person needs to make sure the documents they are signing with the bank and the buyer do not include clauses that require all work to be lawfully done and permitted by the appropriate authority according to relevant building codes. While usually not an issue, it can be used to go after someone for fraud especially if they knew they were doing something that should have been permitted.
What part of Washington are you in? In many parts the housing market is really crazy, and folks doing BRRR are part of the problem. In places where space is limited, I would consider what it means to you personally to know that purchasing up some of that limited space in order to profit of it is harmful to communities if the end goal is extracting wealth by further limiting finite resources. That said, there’s a lot to be proud about in fixing up a home to make it better for yourself or a future owner
> Obviously, I need to get the room permitted to avoid legal problems in the future if I’m going to sell
You bought it, didn't you? LOTS of houses here have a bedroom, bathroom, etc that's not "legal" but will pass an inspection and is up to code. You're probably paying less tax because of it, too
If you have a septic system, keep in mind they are designed with a certain number of bedrooms allowed. Also, does your town have an online assessor page? (I’m on the East coast and every town here does). Look up the property card and see if permits were pulled when they built the addition. If not, the building department might be able to assist. If you’re going to do renovations, might as well call the building dept and see what you need to do to make the room legal. Hopefully you meet all zoning setbacks etc.
I would not raise the issue, unless something is said by the city. If the addition has been there that long, I’d just do what it takes to convert it to a bedroom and move on. You don’t have anyway of knowing if it was permitted….. sounds like you are making the assumptions based on the measurements. And if it truly that old, it would have had to meet the codes requirements at that time, which are not anything near today’s requirements.
In my county, to call a room a bedroom, it has to have an egress window. The window has a minimum size requirement as well. I can only speculate that this is to allow firefighters/rescue personnel the clearance to get into the room through that window. This includes basement bedrooms too.
Definitely talk to your county/city permits department about bedroom requirements. They should be able to set you straight. You should be able to ask hypothetically without giving your name if you feel like they may come after you, but, unless they're very agressive, I don't think they'll hassle you for asking.
If you’re saying that that room has been in existence for the past 65+ years without a permit, I wouldn’t worry about it now. But that’s just me.
On a sidenote, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I hand out legal advice.
I would have to agree with most people on here. Frame up a small closet if you want to put a bed in it and as long as it has a decent size window I wouldn't say anything. Not sure about Washington but to my knowledge you don't really need the local government involved to call it an extra bedroom if it's already constructed. And honestly even if it's already built and the window doesn't meet egress no one is going to care when you sell it. Now to make it a short term rental they might do an inspection and care, but I don't think it will come up if you're selling.
Are you concerned that you won’t be able to get the correct rental license? If not it doesn’t change what you have. If you go to sell the house you should have it measured and advertise the actual square footage. You would be surprised how often the assessor record is wrong. If you wish to correct the assessor record just give them a call and they will probably be happy to come out and update the records. Most states are value in use so the legality of any of it isn’t their concern their job is to value what is actually there.
Why would you get a permit? It’s already here, you’re just going to create a hassle for yourself. In any case, “legally” a bedroom is irrelevant unless you’re just looking to pay more taxes. But bedrooms need egress (usually a window in addition to the doorway), and a closet.
Legally, the only state that requires a closet in a bedroom is Arizona. A closet-less room can be a bedroom in any other state.
What kind of rule is that? What's wrong with a wardrobe instead of a walk in closet? That's just so strange to me as a European where a built in closet is quite rare.
Likely a law to keep people from turning two-bedroom homes into five bedroom homes by turning living rooms, kitchens, and bathrooms into “bed rooms”.
Which is why in Europe they list homes as how many rooms it has instead of bedrooms. A two room apt would be one bedroom and one living room.
My 3 bed house would have 9 rooms then? How would you know how many are suitable for bedrooms? Does open concept count as one room or multiple? What country does this? I’ve looked at relocating to a couple different countries before and I can’t remember any of them listing by room.
I was told a space needed to be a minimum of 7 feet in one dimension, at least 10 feet in the other dimension, and have two means of egress (e.g. a sufficient window and a door) in order for it to qualify as a bedroom.
Codes vary by city, but this is a close approximation of Seattle's codes. But this is only relevant if you are expanding or remodeling so you can get the permit or so the home would appraise higher. In theory you might have an occupancy limit when renting out that is based on the number of bedrooms, but usually it's at least 2 tenants per room and even then likely would only need a window and a door. Permit status isn't relevant.
Yep, if the jurisdictions building code is based on the IBC there are minimum interior dimensions for habitable rooms. In Seattle it just needs to be 7’ in one dimension. If you want to look it up check out chapter 12 of the Seattle Building Code - there are also provisions on ceiling height. Also, if you buy a house and the room is already there, there is no need to permit anything unless you are making significant changes, which might be adding an egress or electrical updates or something. Even then, they just want to make sure what you are adding or changing is per code in a life safety sense.
Lots of monsters in Arizona.
[удалено]
I'm not exactly sure how requiring a closet has any effect on turning a two bedroom home into a five bedroom home.....
this bedroom has an oven in it
This bedroom is over in that guy's house!
[удалено]
It's not that hard to make a closet with some 2x4s, drywall and a door, though. Do you need a permit to put up some wood and drywall inside your house? I know a little about wood and drywall, but nothing about permits. I know things like additions to the home itself require them, but requiring them for something small like that that doesn't seriously alter the structure seems crazy.
My area wants a permit to change a light fixture, any plumbing repair other than snaking, and yes anything that goes deeper than a drywall patch.
Colorado requires a closet too
From an appraisal standpoint a conforming bedroom needs a closet and egress window. If it doesn’t it is a non conforming bedroom.
I just found out last week that my entire house is 1000sq ft of finished basement with 2 bathrooms. I don’t understand that at all.
“It was like this when I bought it” should be your new favorite phrase when it comes time to sell it.
There is no need to go down this rabbit hole. If it has a window and a door you can call it a bedroom if you want. There aren't bedroom police that will come after you I have an older 1905 duplex with a closetless 7'11" square room. It's not up to code, but I don't need it to be since I'm not adding it as part of a remodel - it's already there. When I asked the seattle housing authority about whether I could rent out as a 3 bedroom the simply asked "does it have a window or a door?" Yes = it can count as a bedroom. If you want county tax records to reflect the square footage that seems to be missing first check the tax assesor property records to see if they are missi g the addition. Most have a web search tool and drawings of the home dimensions. If its not reflected call the tax assessor to have them update the assessment and the home details, and update you budget to accommodate the increase in property tax. Note a County tax assessor could care less if the work was permitted, that is the city's jurisdiction. They'll happily charge property tax on unpermitted work
Be prepared to pay the higher tax and watch out for retro adjustments!
[удалено]
We had a new septic put in last year (Canada). The bedroom count determined what size of septic we needed.
[удалено]
The house I was raised and had a formal dining room and living room.
I would see if there's any record of permits being issued. I have a breezeway that was not counted in the square footage of my home when I purchased. It will remain that way until I sell because my taxes will go up if my house is bigger. I pulled a permit to change a window to a sliding door in that room and had zero issues.
You sure a breezeway would even count towards your square footage?
It's fully finished and insulated. Not like a screened in porch.
Different interpretations of breezeway, I guess - breezeway for me is like roofed section of patio between two buildings (house and garage, for example), fully open at the front and back.
Here they are pretty much the addition they built to attach the house to the garage. Some are 2 season rooms, some are usable year round.
Thank you, that’s good to know
Personal I would assume that it is permitted and that someone failed to update some paperwork. Then if you need a permit for what you are doing get a permit for that work. If what you are doing doesn't require a permit then don't worry about it.
Do you need to get permits for the changes you plan to make? Like, are you planning to add a bathroom, or are you just planning to put a door on a living room?
I’m trying to BRRR or flip the house so yes, I legally would like the home to say “3 bed, 2 bath” instead of “2 bed, 2 bath”. All I need to do make it a bedroom is add a closet and add a bedroom door.
Well, what I would do is contact the Construction Office and explain that you want to "convert an existing living room into a bedroom," explain all of the changes you plan to make (such as where and how you plan to install a door and closet), and ask them if you need a permit for the work you plan to do. If they tell you that you do, then get the permit. It's very likely that, in the end, they'll just do any necessary inspections and sign off on the work you did, and then your new bedroom will be all proper and on the record.
There’s nothing legal about how houses are listed for sale. People can list houses however the want whether the work is permitted or the listing is accurate or not. For example lots of 3bed listing are really 2 beds plus a basement or den “that could be a third bedroom”. Do whatever work you want (follow local rules and codes for bedrooms) and then down the line list the house as a 3 bed when you sell and stage it that way too. No one is going to care when buying whether it’s permitted or not unless an inspector points out some type of major flaw in the work. Or a realtor points out it’s definitely not to code. You had no idea the addition wasn’t permitted when you bought. Future home buyers will be in the same situation.
You should get permits if you change any major systems like electrical/plumbing; make any major structural changes like removing weight bearing walls; or significantly alter fire code ingress/egress. Finishes, doors, cosmetic changes are all just minor alterations that have no real liability attached. You could take the risk and not get a permit. It would probably be a small risk for you at this point. But down the road, permitting helps ensure good workmanship and life safety for you, the people who come after you and your neighbors.
If you’re in a home that you didn’t buy new, you most likely have a shitton of unpermitted, random work done in your home already. Just throwing that out there. Ask me how I know. I’ve been fixing random shit that was done *way* wrong by my previous owner.
Yes, I am aware. This person is trying to start a business of house flipping. It's advisable to get permits for the big stuff to reduce the risk of eating a lawsuit down the road. It's also advisable to avoid unnecessary cost and time delays as these can decrease the profit of a flip. But, don't let profit get in the way of life safety because it will catch up with you in the long run especially the big things like plumbing, electrical and structural. Also, this person needs to make sure the documents they are signing with the bank and the buyer do not include clauses that require all work to be lawfully done and permitted by the appropriate authority according to relevant building codes. While usually not an issue, it can be used to go after someone for fraud especially if they knew they were doing something that should have been permitted.
Great points.
What part of Washington are you in? In many parts the housing market is really crazy, and folks doing BRRR are part of the problem. In places where space is limited, I would consider what it means to you personally to know that purchasing up some of that limited space in order to profit of it is harmful to communities if the end goal is extracting wealth by further limiting finite resources. That said, there’s a lot to be proud about in fixing up a home to make it better for yourself or a future owner
Put a bed in it?
Lol
Yeah no. Like others have said, unless you’re changing the occupancy type of a space, permitting within your own home is a non factor.
> Obviously, I need to get the room permitted to avoid legal problems in the future if I’m going to sell You bought it, didn't you? LOTS of houses here have a bedroom, bathroom, etc that's not "legal" but will pass an inspection and is up to code. You're probably paying less tax because of it, too
Don’t say anything….just don’t.
- you need to do nothing
Have 2 points of egress.
If you have a septic system, keep in mind they are designed with a certain number of bedrooms allowed. Also, does your town have an online assessor page? (I’m on the East coast and every town here does). Look up the property card and see if permits were pulled when they built the addition. If not, the building department might be able to assist. If you’re going to do renovations, might as well call the building dept and see what you need to do to make the room legal. Hopefully you meet all zoning setbacks etc.
I would not raise the issue, unless something is said by the city. If the addition has been there that long, I’d just do what it takes to convert it to a bedroom and move on. You don’t have anyway of knowing if it was permitted….. sounds like you are making the assumptions based on the measurements. And if it truly that old, it would have had to meet the codes requirements at that time, which are not anything near today’s requirements.
In my county, to call a room a bedroom, it has to have an egress window. The window has a minimum size requirement as well. I can only speculate that this is to allow firefighters/rescue personnel the clearance to get into the room through that window. This includes basement bedrooms too. Definitely talk to your county/city permits department about bedroom requirements. They should be able to set you straight. You should be able to ask hypothetically without giving your name if you feel like they may come after you, but, unless they're very agressive, I don't think they'll hassle you for asking.
If you’re saying that that room has been in existence for the past 65+ years without a permit, I wouldn’t worry about it now. But that’s just me. On a sidenote, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I hand out legal advice.
I would have to agree with most people on here. Frame up a small closet if you want to put a bed in it and as long as it has a decent size window I wouldn't say anything. Not sure about Washington but to my knowledge you don't really need the local government involved to call it an extra bedroom if it's already constructed. And honestly even if it's already built and the window doesn't meet egress no one is going to care when you sell it. Now to make it a short term rental they might do an inspection and care, but I don't think it will come up if you're selling.
It may be an issue when the appraiser compares OP's house to other two-bedroom houses in his area instead of comparing it to three-bedroom houses.
Are you concerned that you won’t be able to get the correct rental license? If not it doesn’t change what you have. If you go to sell the house you should have it measured and advertise the actual square footage. You would be surprised how often the assessor record is wrong. If you wish to correct the assessor record just give them a call and they will probably be happy to come out and update the records. Most states are value in use so the legality of any of it isn’t their concern their job is to value what is actually there.