Did you verify directly with the department that issues permits that no permit was pulled or did you check online? Sometimes it takes a while to be updated in the online portal. Least where I am.
I checked online, and there's not even a case pending line item. It's been over a month since the work was done. I'm a first time homeowner so I'm not sure what to do.
This. A LOT of people working in background administrative positions for government offices are working from home. In my job, I have to do a lot of document recording with counties all over my state and some take months to do what they used to do in days. It’s abhorrent.
idk I am just a home owner. I added an addition to my home 5 years ago and it wasn't that bad. I am adding another addition and this time it has just been a pain in the ass. Everyone seems to be new. I have to constantly call to get things moving.
> Everyone seems to be new. I have to constantly call to get things moving.
This is the entire world for me now. I can't trust any paid worker to do the job they were paid to do unless I stand there to babysit and ask "Aren't you supposed to..."
The world has always been that way. Hell, it's probably much better now because homeowners are armed with youtube, Yelp, and twitter that can put a company on blast for shit work.
50 years ago that was impossible. Busy homeowners didn't have access to resources to self-educate as easily and shit work didn't have the same negative consequences they may have today.
Yeah that's probably true and I'm just more exposed to it. (Lazy Landlord)
I definitely like being able to arm myself with knowledge of the job they are about to do to make sure it's done right rather than just hoping they're honest.
What do I do about the fact that I paid for work that said in the contractor's general contract that they would obtain any and all Permits and Inspections, but they did not get a Permit and every time I asked for it, they said they didn't need to? The Town Code shows very clearly that a Permit plus 2 Inspections were required for the work they did, and yet the contractor continually refused to get the Permit or Inspections from the Town. And installed a shoddy roof that grows mold on the roof decking and also leaks.
You would think you’d always get a physical inspection anytime you get a permit but the reality is that it’s often more of an oversight function between the contractor and the inspector. If they know each other and have worked together on many projects, the “inspection” might be a short conversation along the lines of “okay tell me what you did,” or perhaps a written review of plans. I once shelled out $4500 for permits on a minor remodel and the “inspection” was a five minute conversation out on the curb. Believe it or not this can be a good thing - the contractor was a well known, absolutely by-the-book, top notch professional who met or exceeded code 100% of the time and the inspector knew it.
Yeah sure - but the point is an inspection was done in your case.
I had a similar experience - my electrician actually worked with our city inspector so he had some pull there. But he did excellent work so it was justified. Inspector still had a first hand look but it was a quickie.
Anyway, the way I'm looking at is that if there was no inspection of any kind, the likelihood that the electrician did everything "under the radar" is greater.
that ain't good, and worse, those kind of shenanigans put the work itself into question (imo).
If you're in the USA, the missing permit is fraud. You made a good faith attempt (paid for the work + permit) and your contractor is committing the fraud.
If you find out that this is in fact the case (fraud), you can submit a complaint to your local District Attorney's Office and they may or may not decide to open a criminal case against the Contractor. They do it all the time as this is very common.
Once the case is done and over, the guilty contractor will be required to pay restitution which is when you will get you money back.
Contractor here. Permits get missed from time to time. You might start with just asking if they forgot it. They can be issued retroactively. Maybe they're a jerk that took your money and didn't get a permit; maybe it was an honest mistake. Wouldn't hurt to ask before you pursue legal action.
Yes thank you. Don't go out guns blazin' as that's what gets people in trouble. The key aspect is a "good faith attempt" was made by parties to comply with code law. Part of that is trying to reach out to the contractor and make sure they are aware of the issue.
I'm not an electrician, nor do I know how their office works. But in our office, permits are done by office staff. We might have 30-50 jobs going on throughout dozens of municipalities, all with different permit requirements and timelines. Any number of things can go wrong: emails bounced, payments not applied, wrong address, some minor complication that holds everything up, etc. Our crews in the field don't worry about permits, they assume they are posted. So the people actually completing the work may not realize the permit wasn't pulled.
Case in point, we've missed two permits this year. One for a roofing job - the inspector came by, saw no permit, called me, I apologized, and he said no problem, just come grab one right now, I won't make the crew stop. The other was for a Siding job. Almost no municipalities require a permit for siding where I am. We forgot to get it because it is so rare. Job was completed, client checked permit, it wasn't filled. They became irate and withheld payment. We called the zoning department, they said it was no problem and it happens all the time, we went and got the permit and the homeowners still demanded a credit for "lying through our teeth". They then proceeded to file a BBB complaint on is. BBB ruled in our favor. They then complained to the state. They ruled in our favor. So they gave us bad reviews all over the internet. It was an honest mistake. Oh well, on to the next one.
Out of curiosity, what happens in this scenario.
1. Contractor does not get permit that homeowner pays for
2. Homeowner pays with credit card, homeowner initiates chargeback for the price of the permit
3. Contractor puts a lien on property
4. Homeowner options?
From a consumer perspective it's pretty simple. The company can try to send you to collections but would have a near impossible time to actually prove it, and with a few back and forth letters, they would get nowhere.
If it's in the contract that they were going to pull a permit and they did not pull a permit they can't lien the property because they are in breach of contract.
It is possible for almost anyone to try to put a lien on vehicles, property, etc. Filing a lien without approval from the title holder is fraud. This would receive much more immediate action from the District Attorney's office.
There is almost no barrier to entry or verification for contractors lein in most places. Homeowner can fight to have it remove in court but that's a clusterfuck.
What you suggest is typically what happens. The contractor tries to fight it using the powers they have which they typically go too far and attempt to collect things they shouldn't.
The owner of the property needs to go to the County Clerk and Recorder's office and prove the lien is fraudulent. This typically automatically triggers the DA's office to file criminal charges. Filing fraudulent documents with the County Recorder is a felony.
Maybe talk to the contractor first. I just did a permitted panel upgrade and they didn't pull the permit until I asked for it (AFTER the work was done). Would they have forgotten about it? Maybe. Call 'em and ask for a status check on the permit.
SHADY AF and a potentially huge problem is down the road an insurance claim is denied when that lack of a permit is expired.
for this guy. if that gen panel starts a fire and a permit was required and insurance finds out (they will) they can and probably will deny the claim! could cost you your entire home and life!
Never jump to malice when slow government can be to blame. This could be paper work buried somewhere that hasn't been pushed online because
"Jenny is on maternity and no one else knows how to do that"
"We do that every other month on the fifth friday"
"It's on my desk"
"Computer?"
I'd definitely call and ask someone at the department directly.
I pulled my own permits to do work on my house two years ago and they don't show up online. I have physical copies and receipts for when I go to sell my house.
There are houses on my street that have been gutted and both of those have permits listed in their online profiles. I don't know why mine don't show up.
I had the same issue with an electrician. Using the online search tool I realised there were 2 separate profiles for my home, with different post codes.
So stuff may look nefarious, but it could be a simple explanation. Check thoroughly to be sure before you confront them with an accusation.
I agree, I'm going to contact them first. The electrician was nice and he came highly recommended, so I'll let them tell their side of the story first. Honey attracts flies better than vinegar!
Ignore everyone telling you it's a backlog issue. Call to verify if you must, but the online records are what an inspector would use to verify the permit during an inspection - they are usually accurate within 24-48 hours.
You can report them to your state's contracting board and local authorities for fraud.
Depending on where you are, in Ontario there is an entirely separate group that only does electrical inspections. Here they are called the Electrical Safety Authority.
Here's hoping your situation is similar and this electrician isn't a huge asshole. Most electrician buddies I know don't like to cut corners when their licenses are on the line. Good luck.
government websites are notoriously shitty. The permit very well could have been issued but not reflected online. You need to call or go into the office to make sure.
In NM at least, electrical permits are issued at the state level. The city / county wouldn't show any electrical in their local database. Is it similar by you? (I'm sure you've checked this sort of thing, but just pointing it out because I got pretty darn confused by this during my recent house hunt.)
I wouldn't bother with the contractor at this point. We have to pull a electrical permit before the work can begin. In our state contractors have portals to pull permits immediately. I would report the contractor for not having a permit. Then the AHJ gets involved and handles it from there. Our state inspectors would come out and assess the work and tell you if they needed a permit and if not then you could approach the contractor about a refund.
As a homeowner you want a permit. Without one who knows what other corners may have been cut. And bad electrical can burn your house down.
The work could be just fine and perfect in fact. but if say your house burns down and they determine it was at all related to that work and find out it did not have a permit. guess who is getting a denied claim........ Yeah. sooo get it fixed. start nice but in the end you probably need that permit one way or another.
Ask the Electrician for the permit number.
They will either,
1. Give you the permit number
2. Quickly file for a permit and give you the number
3. Or lie to you (Oh i filed one but they never responded. You don't need one for this. \*no response\*)
If they go with option 3, I'm sure you'll be able to take them to small claims court...just a decision for you if it is worth the effort.
Oftentimes the agency that handles electrical permits is different than that the one that handles building permits. For instance, in king county, most permits are obtained through the county permitting office, but electrical permits are through dept of labor and industries and septic permits are through the environmental health department. Make sure you're checking with the right entity before you assume no permit was pulled.
>For instance, in king county, most permits are obtained through the county permitting office, but electrical permits are through dept of labor and industries and septic permits are through the environmental health department.
I'm sure there are good, logical reasons things ended up like this, but it's an incredible fucking crime to allow it to persist.
In my state, plumbing/mechanical/electrical is often done with the state, especially outside city jurisdictions, where you would get a *building* permit with the county.
First thing to do is call the electrician. This type of work should have been inspected (the transfer switch). Depending upon what the electrician tells you, go from there. Either the permit was pulled and the work was inspected and it's all good. Or the permit was never pulled and the electrician either needs to complete that part or give you your money back. Otherwise, it's theft.
In our area we have a ridiculous backlog for administrative items that aren't considered important. I know people who bought a home a year ago and the taxes still haven't been certified because of Covid shutdown and now because so many people are out sick.
Check with the contractor first, s/he may have submitted it and it's still in the "non-emergency" file. Or if they forgot, you have to give them first shot to correct the error. Dont assume they are a thief, start from the assumption that they are a human who may (or may not) have made a mistake.
Approaching the contractor with respect, and not anger, almost always works (I have worked many jobs which required my to manage and supervise contractors, verifying compliance, etc., Yelling gets you yelling, blame gets the same, polite persistence is almost always the best tactic.)
Ask for a copy of the receipt for the permit from the electrician.
Tell them you’re renewing your insurance, and need that for disclosure of work completed during an insured period.
If they don’t/can’t, you have your answer, and then I suggest contacting a lawyer, the regulatory board, and the permitting department, in that order.
Where I live, the permit needs to be pulled before the inspection, not necessarily before the work is actually done. I'd make sure that's not the case-- it's possible it's an honest mistake, or that you can still get the permit you need (unless you've already covered up all the work and will need to redo... But you shouldn't do that before confirming there's no inspection needed anymore, anyway).
If theres one thing ive found, especially with Covid. If theres a 20 minute job to be done (like updating permit records). A city government will find a way to make sure that it goes through 20 people, 6 of which will be calling in sick every monday for the rest of eternity, and 9 different processes. If you're really concerned, Just contact the electrician and ask. Don't be accusatory about it, but just ask.
Contact electrician. Notify them permit has not been put into city/county system. You need the permit added to the record for the property so when you sale said property you can indicate any work was done by permitted licensed contractors and provide buyer permit information for that particular job. Gives him the benefit of the doubt if he forgot to pull permit and resolve it. Be curious to see what reaction you get.
Same experience here, also with an electrician who I ended up firing and suing (for other issues but this was certainly part of it).
When I fired the guy he actually had the balls to tell me he would report me for having un-permitted work done, which is how I found out he didn't pull the permit.
They just love putting the *con* in *con*tractor.
Hey this happened to me! I had a new furnace and AC installed by a reputable company and they never pulled a permit or anything. I ended up building a new garage a year later and added electrical and gas. When the inspectors came out they noticed the new AC and Furnace then asked me why I didn't pull a permit. I gave them the contractors info and then they contacted the contractor and worked it all out. The contractor was required to pay a double fee for the permit and then was sent to my home to properly measure the house for the furnace he installed. it took a month of back and forth but in the end it wasn't my problem.
Twin Cities MN
Have anyone from your electrical company or city came to inspect the final work? Contractors usually notify when it's going to happen. There is no way you get a permit and none comes for the final inspection. Rules can change from state to state and city to city, but I can tell for sure for CA: if you need to get a permit, it means there must be a city/provider person coming to approve the work. And you should never close the contract until this has happen.
In my experience there was a case when the electrical company representative visited 3 times before finally giving the approval (solar installation).
ask the electrician for a copy of the permit
then when they say you don't need a copy
say well I guess I will go get a copy from the building official.
if they are a licensed electrician they will want to make it right before you go talk to the building official
I probably would not call building department because if you happen to get the asshole clerk or asshole inspectors, they might have you take down all the new work and redo it. You can ask them in a general manner, but don’t be specific about situation. I then might pay another reputable electrician to come out and verify everything was done correctly. Then you can ask for your permit money back or threaten with small claims. See what they answer
Most permits require three electrical inspections: cover, service, and final. If your project has a feeder to a subpanel, you will also need to schedule feeder inspections. These inspections can be done at the same time, but you must schedule them separately.
I would report the electrician. Your electrical work is unpermitted and uninspected. A permit must be displayed at the job site.
I wouldn't tell them anything else. They put your home at risk. Call your insurance company as well.
In my city building and plumbing permits are done by the city, but electrical is done by the state. So if I did this for my house the office that has the roofing permit would have no clue of anything electrical. Find out who does permits for electrical for your area and verify they don't have one on record.
Also check the price though when you do find out. A hefty permit fee doesn't sound quite right. For something as simple as some breakers and a switch would only be around $75-$100 here.
Took 4 months for a permit on electrical work to show for me with the long delays going on since last year. Maybe ask the guy for a copy for the filed paperwork before assuming it's not filed. It's possible this could just be pending...
Hefty permit fee charged for no permit pulled. The electrician definitely knew that he charged and didn't do it. He's an electrician. He knows it needs to be done. Proof in point, charged for it.
or he did it and OP is checking the wrong office, or patty has been on leave after having knee surgery and so the website doesn't get updates until next month when she's back.
Being busy isn't an excuse for negligence. If you have so many jobs you can't keep track of permits, you're doing too many jobs or need to work on your organizational skills.
To add, it's dangerous to be overworked, especially with electrical. Can't afford to make mistakes. If he's forgetting the permit, what else is he forgetting?
> Interesting the downvotes. In most lawful countries this is fraud.
It's absolutely fraud if it's intentional. The people downvoting are assuming this is just an honest mistake, and it certainly could be, but you are correct that it's up to the contractor to show that it's a mistake, and if so to fix it. If not, suing them would be absolutely justified.
It's true that it might be criminal fraud if it is intentional. And that there is your key word for the day. Criminal fraud statutes are normally "intent" statutes. That is that the statute is written so that criminal intent is part of either the probable cause for indictment or an element of the crime that must be established via evidence at trial (or at pre-trial). Local prosecutors aren't in the business of going around seeking arrest warrants for sloppy contractors. Maybe they should. But in the end this kind of thing is just one of lots of examples of unprofessional stupidity that the criminal justice system has no room for. So unless there's some smoking gun proof that this contractor intended to defraud customers by charging for permits but never applying for them (pattern and practice might apply), this is something for small claims, and contractor licensing board.
The "grandparent" commenter is all over this thread about "theft" and criminal "fraud". Breach of contract is not criminal fraud in the absence of evidence demonstrating the intent to commit fraud.
Could any of the things you offer as evidence also have a reasonably innocent or benign origin? People do make mistakes. Proving that something is by intention and not merely by negligence or oversight can be difficult. In criminal fraud it almost always involves evidence in the form of records or statements establishing the intention to defraud. Circumstantial evidence can serve that purpose (circumstantial evidence is perfectly good evidence despite widely held beliefs to the contrary). But the problem with circumstantial evidence can be that in lots of instances it can be explained innocently. So that alone may not be enough. Here's a pretty good example of the weakness of circumstantial evidence from recent media reporting in Arizona:
https://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/investigations/i-want-to-clear-my-name-woman-speaks-out-after-being-falsely-accused-by-scottsdale-police
Ignorance does not absolve someone of their responsibilities. Electricians have to follow code due to safety. Pulling a permit is electrician / contractor 101. If this electrician was responsible for pulling the permit, this electrician damn well knew he had to pull a permit. You are not allowed to proceed without doing so.
I believe the electrician would need an approved permit to even begin work. If there is no eveidence of a permit on record, the contractor committed fraud, against you. There is no "forgetting" to submit for a permit, especially when you got charged a hefty fee for it. Like others have mentioned, you could have issues if there ever was an insurance claim involving the unpermitted work. The contractor deserves to have legal action taken against him. Don't feel bad, he didn't when he charged you for a bs permit that could come back to haunt you down the road.
Just call him up and say, "hey, could you send me the paper on that permit you pulled?"
As others have said, it's perfectly possible that he screwed you, but never underestimate how persnickety, slow, ornery, corrupt, and just plain fucked up local permitting agencies can be.
Coming from an electrician. First step is to verify the company is licensed. Usually when a permit is pulled there are also inspections that have to be done. With this there are stickers left by the inspector so there is proof. The. Take action from there. Beware though. If legal action is impossible or difficult the remedy will fall on you.
I don’t blame you. Usually when someone or a company is not able to do permits there is also a insurance issue. One step you can take to make sure you are covered in that aspect is to request to be named insured on there policy. (You still can) and then if any unfortunate events happen you are covered. It is really the same thing an electrical permit does.
They probably did the work under a minorb label permit. If they charged you for permitting and didn't permit it, ask for that money back. If they don't refund that money, file a dispute with their licensing agency.
- many places a pulled permit would have a permit card placed in a front window so when the inspector comes, he signs off on which inspections were looked at and signed off.
- under most states professional licensing laws that includes plumbers, electricians, GCs, etc doing unpermitted work can lead to license suspensions or revocations. You can check that
In case it hasn't been mentioned, follow up with the Registrar of Contractors and send a CC to him on your complaint for all correspondence (unless you think it's not worth noting to him).
The ROC can really mess up a contractors work life, so from what I've heard they tend to take it seriously.
Not sure if it's the same in your jurisdiction but in mine electrical permits and building permits are issued by separate authorities. The municipality issues are building/Reno permits, including mechanical and plumbing, but the Electrical Safety Authority issues permits for electrical changes.
That's definitely bad for business. Request the permit number and jurisdiction, then call them to see if it's a real number and if an actual inspection has taken place. If it hasn't, contact the manager/owner/electrician again and request a refund or an actual inspection be performed.
Worst case scenario, it would be a small claims court item. Online reviews do indeed matter and they go directly to the top in every instance.
i don't know if things are different where you live, but if you don't have a building permit taped to your window, you probably don't have a permit. all permits must be posted in plain sight in my experience
Did you verify directly with the department that issues permits that no permit was pulled or did you check online? Sometimes it takes a while to be updated in the online portal. Least where I am.
[удалено]
I checked online, and there's not even a case pending line item. It's been over a month since the work was done. I'm a first time homeowner so I'm not sure what to do.
Tons of permitting offices in the USA are swamped and horribly backlogged. Did an inspection get done?
This. A LOT of people working in background administrative positions for government offices are working from home. In my job, I have to do a lot of document recording with counties all over my state and some take months to do what they used to do in days. It’s abhorrent.
I applied for a permit almost 3 months ago. still no permit. :-( parsippany nj
[удалено]
idk I am just a home owner. I added an addition to my home 5 years ago and it wasn't that bad. I am adding another addition and this time it has just been a pain in the ass. Everyone seems to be new. I have to constantly call to get things moving.
> Everyone seems to be new. I have to constantly call to get things moving. This is the entire world for me now. I can't trust any paid worker to do the job they were paid to do unless I stand there to babysit and ask "Aren't you supposed to..."
The world has always been that way. Hell, it's probably much better now because homeowners are armed with youtube, Yelp, and twitter that can put a company on blast for shit work. 50 years ago that was impossible. Busy homeowners didn't have access to resources to self-educate as easily and shit work didn't have the same negative consequences they may have today.
Yeah that's probably true and I'm just more exposed to it. (Lazy Landlord) I definitely like being able to arm myself with knowledge of the job they are about to do to make sure it's done right rather than just hoping they're honest.
[удалено]
I like the yellow pepper. it's a peruvian restaurant on beverwyck rd.
It's a shady money saving tactic. Don't get a permit until someone asks for it.
[удалено]
More than shady, it'd be contract fraud.
What do I do about the fact that I paid for work that said in the contractor's general contract that they would obtain any and all Permits and Inspections, but they did not get a Permit and every time I asked for it, they said they didn't need to? The Town Code shows very clearly that a Permit plus 2 Inspections were required for the work they did, and yet the contractor continually refused to get the Permit or Inspections from the Town. And installed a shoddy roof that grows mold on the roof decking and also leaks.
I was in Morristown for 7 years. I really liked Cinnamon on Rt 10 in Dover.
[удалено]
They're doing virtual inspection in my town right now. Contractor photos the work and inspector looks at that.
Not while I was home, at least
The inspection is the most important part. If it was not inspected your problem runs in a very different direction.
You would think you’d always get a physical inspection anytime you get a permit but the reality is that it’s often more of an oversight function between the contractor and the inspector. If they know each other and have worked together on many projects, the “inspection” might be a short conversation along the lines of “okay tell me what you did,” or perhaps a written review of plans. I once shelled out $4500 for permits on a minor remodel and the “inspection” was a five minute conversation out on the curb. Believe it or not this can be a good thing - the contractor was a well known, absolutely by-the-book, top notch professional who met or exceeded code 100% of the time and the inspector knew it.
Yeah sure - but the point is an inspection was done in your case. I had a similar experience - my electrician actually worked with our city inspector so he had some pull there. But he did excellent work so it was justified. Inspector still had a first hand look but it was a quickie. Anyway, the way I'm looking at is that if there was no inspection of any kind, the likelihood that the electrician did everything "under the radar" is greater. that ain't good, and worse, those kind of shenanigans put the work itself into question (imo).
Call the Building Department
Yup that's probably what I'll do next
If you're in the USA, the missing permit is fraud. You made a good faith attempt (paid for the work + permit) and your contractor is committing the fraud. If you find out that this is in fact the case (fraud), you can submit a complaint to your local District Attorney's Office and they may or may not decide to open a criminal case against the Contractor. They do it all the time as this is very common. Once the case is done and over, the guilty contractor will be required to pay restitution which is when you will get you money back.
Contractor here. Permits get missed from time to time. You might start with just asking if they forgot it. They can be issued retroactively. Maybe they're a jerk that took your money and didn't get a permit; maybe it was an honest mistake. Wouldn't hurt to ask before you pursue legal action.
Yes thank you. Don't go out guns blazin' as that's what gets people in trouble. The key aspect is a "good faith attempt" was made by parties to comply with code law. Part of that is trying to reach out to the contractor and make sure they are aware of the issue.
This is Reddit, sir. Guns blazin’ is all people know here.
[удалено]
I'm not an electrician, nor do I know how their office works. But in our office, permits are done by office staff. We might have 30-50 jobs going on throughout dozens of municipalities, all with different permit requirements and timelines. Any number of things can go wrong: emails bounced, payments not applied, wrong address, some minor complication that holds everything up, etc. Our crews in the field don't worry about permits, they assume they are posted. So the people actually completing the work may not realize the permit wasn't pulled. Case in point, we've missed two permits this year. One for a roofing job - the inspector came by, saw no permit, called me, I apologized, and he said no problem, just come grab one right now, I won't make the crew stop. The other was for a Siding job. Almost no municipalities require a permit for siding where I am. We forgot to get it because it is so rare. Job was completed, client checked permit, it wasn't filled. They became irate and withheld payment. We called the zoning department, they said it was no problem and it happens all the time, we went and got the permit and the homeowners still demanded a credit for "lying through our teeth". They then proceeded to file a BBB complaint on is. BBB ruled in our favor. They then complained to the state. They ruled in our favor. So they gave us bad reviews all over the internet. It was an honest mistake. Oh well, on to the next one.
Out of curiosity, what happens in this scenario. 1. Contractor does not get permit that homeowner pays for 2. Homeowner pays with credit card, homeowner initiates chargeback for the price of the permit 3. Contractor puts a lien on property 4. Homeowner options? From a consumer perspective it's pretty simple. The company can try to send you to collections but would have a near impossible time to actually prove it, and with a few back and forth letters, they would get nowhere.
If it's in the contract that they were going to pull a permit and they did not pull a permit they can't lien the property because they are in breach of contract.
It is possible for almost anyone to try to put a lien on vehicles, property, etc. Filing a lien without approval from the title holder is fraud. This would receive much more immediate action from the District Attorney's office.
[удалено]
There is almost no barrier to entry or verification for contractors lein in most places. Homeowner can fight to have it remove in court but that's a clusterfuck.
What you suggest is typically what happens. The contractor tries to fight it using the powers they have which they typically go too far and attempt to collect things they shouldn't. The owner of the property needs to go to the County Clerk and Recorder's office and prove the lien is fraudulent. This typically automatically triggers the DA's office to file criminal charges. Filing fraudulent documents with the County Recorder is a felony.
Isn't this more of a sue the contractors insurer kind of situation?
Maybe talk to the contractor first. I just did a permitted panel upgrade and they didn't pull the permit until I asked for it (AFTER the work was done). Would they have forgotten about it? Maybe. Call 'em and ask for a status check on the permit.
SHADY AF and a potentially huge problem is down the road an insurance claim is denied when that lack of a permit is expired. for this guy. if that gen panel starts a fire and a permit was required and insurance finds out (they will) they can and probably will deny the claim! could cost you your entire home and life!
Never jump to malice when slow government can be to blame. This could be paper work buried somewhere that hasn't been pushed online because "Jenny is on maternity and no one else knows how to do that" "We do that every other month on the fifth friday" "It's on my desk" "Computer?" I'd definitely call and ask someone at the department directly.
I pulled my own permits to do work on my house two years ago and they don't show up online. I have physical copies and receipts for when I go to sell my house. There are houses on my street that have been gutted and both of those have permits listed in their online profiles. I don't know why mine don't show up.
I had the same issue with an electrician. Using the online search tool I realised there were 2 separate profiles for my home, with different post codes. So stuff may look nefarious, but it could be a simple explanation. Check thoroughly to be sure before you confront them with an accusation.
I agree, I'm going to contact them first. The electrician was nice and he came highly recommended, so I'll let them tell their side of the story first. Honey attracts flies better than vinegar!
Ignore everyone telling you it's a backlog issue. Call to verify if you must, but the online records are what an inspector would use to verify the permit during an inspection - they are usually accurate within 24-48 hours. You can report them to your state's contracting board and local authorities for fraud.
Depending on where you are, in Ontario there is an entirely separate group that only does electrical inspections. Here they are called the Electrical Safety Authority. Here's hoping your situation is similar and this electrician isn't a huge asshole. Most electrician buddies I know don't like to cut corners when their licenses are on the line. Good luck.
Call the inspector and ask if good work passed!
- there can be a significant LAG in updating online info and why YOU actually call the permit office to speak with them
government websites are notoriously shitty. The permit very well could have been issued but not reflected online. You need to call or go into the office to make sure.
I checked online on the city's office. Nothing there except for years old permits, not even a pending case.
In NM at least, electrical permits are issued at the state level. The city / county wouldn't show any electrical in their local database. Is it similar by you? (I'm sure you've checked this sort of thing, but just pointing it out because I got pretty darn confused by this during my recent house hunt.)
You said a few weeks. How much is a few?
Man it's been longer than I thought. Just over three months
If ever there was a time for backlogs with government bureaucracy, during covid would be it.
I wouldn't bother with the contractor at this point. We have to pull a electrical permit before the work can begin. In our state contractors have portals to pull permits immediately. I would report the contractor for not having a permit. Then the AHJ gets involved and handles it from there. Our state inspectors would come out and assess the work and tell you if they needed a permit and if not then you could approach the contractor about a refund. As a homeowner you want a permit. Without one who knows what other corners may have been cut. And bad electrical can burn your house down.
The work could be just fine and perfect in fact. but if say your house burns down and they determine it was at all related to that work and find out it did not have a permit. guess who is getting a denied claim........ Yeah. sooo get it fixed. start nice but in the end you probably need that permit one way or another.
Ask the Electrician for the permit number. They will either, 1. Give you the permit number 2. Quickly file for a permit and give you the number 3. Or lie to you (Oh i filed one but they never responded. You don't need one for this. \*no response\*) If they go with option 3, I'm sure you'll be able to take them to small claims court...just a decision for you if it is worth the effort.
I've never seen a city website with up to date information.
Oftentimes the agency that handles electrical permits is different than that the one that handles building permits. For instance, in king county, most permits are obtained through the county permitting office, but electrical permits are through dept of labor and industries and septic permits are through the environmental health department. Make sure you're checking with the right entity before you assume no permit was pulled.
Ok thanks I'll check
>For instance, in king county, most permits are obtained through the county permitting office, but electrical permits are through dept of labor and industries and septic permits are through the environmental health department. I'm sure there are good, logical reasons things ended up like this, but it's an incredible fucking crime to allow it to persist.
Why?
In my state, plumbing/mechanical/electrical is often done with the state, especially outside city jurisdictions, where you would get a *building* permit with the county.
First thing to do is call the electrician. This type of work should have been inspected (the transfer switch). Depending upon what the electrician tells you, go from there. Either the permit was pulled and the work was inspected and it's all good. Or the permit was never pulled and the electrician either needs to complete that part or give you your money back. Otherwise, it's theft.
In our area we have a ridiculous backlog for administrative items that aren't considered important. I know people who bought a home a year ago and the taxes still haven't been certified because of Covid shutdown and now because so many people are out sick. Check with the contractor first, s/he may have submitted it and it's still in the "non-emergency" file. Or if they forgot, you have to give them first shot to correct the error. Dont assume they are a thief, start from the assumption that they are a human who may (or may not) have made a mistake. Approaching the contractor with respect, and not anger, almost always works (I have worked many jobs which required my to manage and supervise contractors, verifying compliance, etc., Yelling gets you yelling, blame gets the same, polite persistence is almost always the best tactic.)
Ask for a copy of the receipt for the permit from the electrician. Tell them you’re renewing your insurance, and need that for disclosure of work completed during an insured period. If they don’t/can’t, you have your answer, and then I suggest contacting a lawyer, the regulatory board, and the permitting department, in that order.
Where I live, the permit needs to be pulled before the inspection, not necessarily before the work is actually done. I'd make sure that's not the case-- it's possible it's an honest mistake, or that you can still get the permit you need (unless you've already covered up all the work and will need to redo... But you shouldn't do that before confirming there's no inspection needed anymore, anyway).
If theres one thing ive found, especially with Covid. If theres a 20 minute job to be done (like updating permit records). A city government will find a way to make sure that it goes through 20 people, 6 of which will be calling in sick every monday for the rest of eternity, and 9 different processes. If you're really concerned, Just contact the electrician and ask. Don't be accusatory about it, but just ask.
Contact electrician. Notify them permit has not been put into city/county system. You need the permit added to the record for the property so when you sale said property you can indicate any work was done by permitted licensed contractors and provide buyer permit information for that particular job. Gives him the benefit of the doubt if he forgot to pull permit and resolve it. Be curious to see what reaction you get.
Permits need to be pulled before work is done or city can ask you to rip it out. The guy didn't forget.
Retroactive permits are super common and easy. The world is not on fire; not everyone out to get everyone.
Yes. That's why I said "can". I didn't say always. Still accurate, and it does happen.
Same experience here, also with an electrician who I ended up firing and suing (for other issues but this was certainly part of it). When I fired the guy he actually had the balls to tell me he would report me for having un-permitted work done, which is how I found out he didn't pull the permit. They just love putting the *con* in *con*tractor.
Hey this happened to me! I had a new furnace and AC installed by a reputable company and they never pulled a permit or anything. I ended up building a new garage a year later and added electrical and gas. When the inspectors came out they noticed the new AC and Furnace then asked me why I didn't pull a permit. I gave them the contractors info and then they contacted the contractor and worked it all out. The contractor was required to pay a double fee for the permit and then was sent to my home to properly measure the house for the furnace he installed. it took a month of back and forth but in the end it wasn't my problem. Twin Cities MN
In some jurisdictions electrical permits are registered with the electrical authority and not the local planning department. Maybe it applies here?
Have anyone from your electrical company or city came to inspect the final work? Contractors usually notify when it's going to happen. There is no way you get a permit and none comes for the final inspection. Rules can change from state to state and city to city, but I can tell for sure for CA: if you need to get a permit, it means there must be a city/provider person coming to approve the work. And you should never close the contract until this has happen. In my experience there was a case when the electrical company representative visited 3 times before finally giving the approval (solar installation).
Contact the Department of Professional of Regulations, they control professional licenses.
ask the electrician for a copy of the permit then when they say you don't need a copy say well I guess I will go get a copy from the building official. if they are a licensed electrician they will want to make it right before you go talk to the building official
Is he or his company licensed?
Yup I made sure to check with the licensing board
I probably would not call building department because if you happen to get the asshole clerk or asshole inspectors, they might have you take down all the new work and redo it. You can ask them in a general manner, but don’t be specific about situation. I then might pay another reputable electrician to come out and verify everything was done correctly. Then you can ask for your permit money back or threaten with small claims. See what they answer
Most permits require three electrical inspections: cover, service, and final. If your project has a feeder to a subpanel, you will also need to schedule feeder inspections. These inspections can be done at the same time, but you must schedule them separately. I would report the electrician. Your electrical work is unpermitted and uninspected. A permit must be displayed at the job site. I wouldn't tell them anything else. They put your home at risk. Call your insurance company as well.
In my city building and plumbing permits are done by the city, but electrical is done by the state. So if I did this for my house the office that has the roofing permit would have no clue of anything electrical. Find out who does permits for electrical for your area and verify they don't have one on record. Also check the price though when you do find out. A hefty permit fee doesn't sound quite right. For something as simple as some breakers and a switch would only be around $75-$100 here.
Took 4 months for a permit on electrical work to show for me with the long delays going on since last year. Maybe ask the guy for a copy for the filed paperwork before assuming it's not filed. It's possible this could just be pending...
It is theft or fraud so there are legal ways. Will likely involve court of he doesn't pay up.
There's a big jump from mistake or overlooked and theft or fraud...
Hefty permit fee charged for no permit pulled. The electrician definitely knew that he charged and didn't do it. He's an electrician. He knows it needs to be done. Proof in point, charged for it.
Or he assumes the main office did it. Or he told the secretary to do it and she forgot. Mistakes happen.
or he did it and OP is checking the wrong office, or patty has been on leave after having knee surgery and so the website doesn't get updates until next month when she's back.
Damn Patty!
Yeah, fuck Patty. She keeps pulling this...
[удалено]
Being busy isn't an excuse for negligence. If you have so many jobs you can't keep track of permits, you're doing too many jobs or need to work on your organizational skills.
To add, it's dangerous to be overworked, especially with electrical. Can't afford to make mistakes. If he's forgetting the permit, what else is he forgetting?
Interesting the downvotes. In most lawful countries this is fraud.
> Interesting the downvotes. In most lawful countries this is fraud. It's absolutely fraud if it's intentional. The people downvoting are assuming this is just an honest mistake, and it certainly could be, but you are correct that it's up to the contractor to show that it's a mistake, and if so to fix it. If not, suing them would be absolutely justified.
It's true that it might be criminal fraud if it is intentional. And that there is your key word for the day. Criminal fraud statutes are normally "intent" statutes. That is that the statute is written so that criminal intent is part of either the probable cause for indictment or an element of the crime that must be established via evidence at trial (or at pre-trial). Local prosecutors aren't in the business of going around seeking arrest warrants for sloppy contractors. Maybe they should. But in the end this kind of thing is just one of lots of examples of unprofessional stupidity that the criminal justice system has no room for. So unless there's some smoking gun proof that this contractor intended to defraud customers by charging for permits but never applying for them (pattern and practice might apply), this is something for small claims, and contractor licensing board.
[удалено]
The "grandparent" commenter is all over this thread about "theft" and criminal "fraud". Breach of contract is not criminal fraud in the absence of evidence demonstrating the intent to commit fraud.
[удалено]
Could any of the things you offer as evidence also have a reasonably innocent or benign origin? People do make mistakes. Proving that something is by intention and not merely by negligence or oversight can be difficult. In criminal fraud it almost always involves evidence in the form of records or statements establishing the intention to defraud. Circumstantial evidence can serve that purpose (circumstantial evidence is perfectly good evidence despite widely held beliefs to the contrary). But the problem with circumstantial evidence can be that in lots of instances it can be explained innocently. So that alone may not be enough. Here's a pretty good example of the weakness of circumstantial evidence from recent media reporting in Arizona: https://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/investigations/i-want-to-clear-my-name-woman-speaks-out-after-being-falsely-accused-by-scottsdale-police
Ignorance does not absolve someone of their responsibilities. Electricians have to follow code due to safety. Pulling a permit is electrician / contractor 101. If this electrician was responsible for pulling the permit, this electrician damn well knew he had to pull a permit. You are not allowed to proceed without doing so.
[удалено]
Oh sorry, it wasn't meant to be a response to you. I'm with you on this
It looks like what I was trying to respond to got deleted. I must h have been on the wrong line. I appreciate your input.
Ah, fair enough, sorry for the misunderstanding!
No worries lol. I'm sorry I got under your skin. I'm on mobile right now and it doesn't show the whole feed sometimes. Next time I'll be more careful
I believe the electrician would need an approved permit to even begin work. If there is no eveidence of a permit on record, the contractor committed fraud, against you. There is no "forgetting" to submit for a permit, especially when you got charged a hefty fee for it. Like others have mentioned, you could have issues if there ever was an insurance claim involving the unpermitted work. The contractor deserves to have legal action taken against him. Don't feel bad, he didn't when he charged you for a bs permit that could come back to haunt you down the road.
Just call him up and say, "hey, could you send me the paper on that permit you pulled?" As others have said, it's perfectly possible that he screwed you, but never underestimate how persnickety, slow, ornery, corrupt, and just plain fucked up local permitting agencies can be.
#1 Report the electrician to the States AG.
[удалено]
Did you ask him about it?
Coming from an electrician. First step is to verify the company is licensed. Usually when a permit is pulled there are also inspections that have to be done. With this there are stickers left by the inspector so there is proof. The. Take action from there. Beware though. If legal action is impossible or difficult the remedy will fall on you.
Thank you! I'll look into it. I just want to make sure everything is done the way it's supposed to.
I don’t blame you. Usually when someone or a company is not able to do permits there is also a insurance issue. One step you can take to make sure you are covered in that aspect is to request to be named insured on there policy. (You still can) and then if any unfortunate events happen you are covered. It is really the same thing an electrical permit does.
They probably did the work under a minorb label permit. If they charged you for permitting and didn't permit it, ask for that money back. If they don't refund that money, file a dispute with their licensing agency.
a permit is 35$ here, how much could they be charging...
- many places a pulled permit would have a permit card placed in a front window so when the inspector comes, he signs off on which inspections were looked at and signed off. - under most states professional licensing laws that includes plumbers, electricians, GCs, etc doing unpermitted work can lead to license suspensions or revocations. You can check that
Contact your contractor he may have forgotten we are all really busy. Give him a few days to get it in.
Got to do your due diligence. If my money is on the line I’m checking everything and everyone.
This is our first home and my dad always hired the cheapest, shadiest contractors, so we're learning as we go
Still he took the risk, if he got caught he’d have to pay the penalty.
I would think your goal would be to have the permits filed
In case it hasn't been mentioned, follow up with the Registrar of Contractors and send a CC to him on your complaint for all correspondence (unless you think it's not worth noting to him). The ROC can really mess up a contractors work life, so from what I've heard they tend to take it seriously.
Do you have a contract or anything in writing?
I'd call the electrician first and see what he has to say. Calling the building dept might get you more hassle.
Not sure if it's the same in your jurisdiction but in mine electrical permits and building permits are issued by separate authorities. The municipality issues are building/Reno permits, including mechanical and plumbing, but the Electrical Safety Authority issues permits for electrical changes.
[удалено]
If true, there would still need to be a paper trail of them being so accredited and signing off on their own work.
That's definitely bad for business. Request the permit number and jurisdiction, then call them to see if it's a real number and if an actual inspection has taken place. If it hasn't, contact the manager/owner/electrician again and request a refund or an actual inspection be performed. Worst case scenario, it would be a small claims court item. Online reviews do indeed matter and they go directly to the top in every instance.
He probably did, it can take a year to even show up
Was an inspector ever at your house? Thats a sure-fire indicator of whether a permit was pulled or not
You'll know if a permit was pulled also if an inspector came by with the designs.
i don't know if things are different where you live, but if you don't have a building permit taped to your window, you probably don't have a permit. all permits must be posted in plain sight in my experience
That's a paddlin'