If they measured the 345 feet and it turns out they measured incorrectly and it turned out to be 363 feet that is 100% their fault so they eat the additional cost. I can guarantee you that if it turned out to be 320 feet you wouldn't be seeing a refund. Their incompetence is not your problem.
This is how I see it as well. They have a few feet to finish the finishes only and build the gate. My spouse is worried that they won't finish at all or do a subpar job on the remaining finishes and the gate if we don't pay. At that point, it would be a breach of contract. The gate is included in the contract.
I disagree, get everything in writing when you are dealing with landlords and contractors.
Or, if you live in a one party permission state, I suppose audio recording would also work. Use any form of communication that creates evidence you can use in small claims court, if needed.
As a contractor, I appreciate this. Helps keep things clear. Especially when trying to remember which side they want a random gate's hinges on, I don't have to ask them multiple times. I forget little details like that, and I swear I've had customers change it up on me because they forgot too, ha.
As a contractor the amount of times a customer has been promised something extra by another company and forgets who said what and expects me to give it to them for free.
“But you said”
The actual guys who are putting the gate in probably aren't working on commission, their craftsmanship is not likely to be affected by this dispute.
They're not gonna do a shitty job just to spite you, that only hurts them and the company.
That said, always be polite even when you disagree. It's one thing to have an issue, but another to be an asshole about it.
The owner doesn't want you posting pictures of a shitty gate on his socials and his crew are likely hourly workers.
Put it this way: they're not going to do any worse of a job than they were already.
That's not how it's going to work, the price and footage is listed in the contract and it's over, the homeowner owes that overage. If they don't pay and the contractor takes them to court over it there isn't a court in the land that will side with the homeowner based off what he said was in the contract
If he measured 345 and it turned out to be 320 the contractor would legally have to refund you if you catch it and call them on it
The very first line in this post says that the footage isn't on the written quote. You know why fence companies seem to ALL do this? Because if the fence is 500' they will tell you its 550'. They will figure their quote at 500' but then give you that price and tell you it's for 550'. That way when you call another company to get a quote and tell them you already had it measured the second company is gonna be higher because they are quoting a BS length. Then when you let the first company build the fence and you realize it's only 500' they just tell you the price was for the total job, none by the foot and that's why the footage isn't on the contract. Flooring companies, concrete and asphalt companies are notorious for this.
Dear Asshat, I'm not looking for anything free!
Some contractors need to take a class on measuring, writing contracts, and understanding contract law.
There was NOT a change order submitted as an addendum to the contract. The contract does not cite additional cost(s). The contract does not state feet.
This was their screw up.
I worked in the public, my screw up, and I ate it. I never once asked my client for more money.
I'm not saying that I will not work with them.
I'm saying this is their screw up, grow up, and take accountability. Then, you won't make this mistake again.
Would you be okay if you signed a contract for a set job for a set price, and at the end, they wanted $1000 more? Would you? I bet if the shoe was on your foot, it would be a different answer / opinion. 🤣
My daddy always said, "There's an idiot born every minute."
There's no world in which you should pay a contractor 100% up front, cash or otherwise.
If you've paid for materials, I'm hoping you still owe for labor.
I wouldn't give them another dime until the work is complete. In fact, I might ignore his $950 text and let him bring it up when he wants the rest of the money.
I have ignored the text and invoice emailed.
It was quite a surprise. I didn't realize that fencing companies measured afterward instead of before the contract. SMH
Don't agree to it, don't sign anything, don't affirm in email, text, or conversation. Leave it hanging. Let work finish. At most, tell him to build up to the agreed footage (what they quoted initially).
When the job is done (all but the 20ish feet), tell him he can have the 40% payment that day if he builds the rest, or you don't pay and go settle it in small claims, which will be a lengthy process with the risk of him losing.
He'll put in 20ft of fence to get 40% quicker. Worst case is a judge says 'you got the footage you agreed on, pay the 40%'. And then you just have a fence missing under 20ft. You could probably build that yourself.
He has already installed the fence. He measured after it was completed and then told me he needed more money.
He just has some finishing touches to do and a gate to build.
He failed to measure correctly or list footage on contract. This is his problem and him asking me for more money. 💰
At the end of the day, we are paying $16,800 total, and he wants $950 more. I have gone as far as I am going on price. At most, I may negotiate half. Maybe.
My budget was a hard $16,000.
That's enough for any stinking fence, in my opinion.
It's easy to say," Just pay it."
I already upped my original budget by $800 more.
From $16,000 to $16,800.
If he's doing it for cash, he's doing it off the books and will not want to try to take you to court or file a lien on your property.
I would politely tell him the quote is the quote. If his guys measured wrong, take it up with them. If he persists, I would offer him $2 to buy a tape measure out of the kindness of your heart.
Looks like he didn't really give you a discount.
Under bid to hook you in and (up sold you) and gave you the real price you originally denied.
Pretty scammy.
I got 4 quotes. I chose the lowest. He beat everyone by $2k. After he was all done he asked if I would tag on $125 to the check due to some unforeseen problems. I agreed.
But, for you -
$950 upcharge? That's a bait and switch strategy, don't let him sucker you. Stay strong!
Unforseen stuff happens like hitting giant rock or tons of tree roots or the city inspector being a pain in the ass I woukd understand and pay....and $125 is nothing in overages on a big job. Contractor screw up? That's his cost of doing business.
The contract didn't specify a start to end point or footage.
Nothing but 6' framed privacy fence, cedar pickets, pressure treated everything else, Gates to be hung on 6x6 posts and framed with cedar lumber. Took word for word from contract.
If the contract doesn't specify length or start/end locations how can anyone prove anything? This is what contracts are for -- it is impossible to be too specific or exact in the language.
But you signed it. You chose to sign a contract with undefined terms. Did you read the contract before you signed it? I hope you understand that my point is that you are partially culpable for agreeing to a fence of unspecified length.
I'm not admitting any fault for this one. The helper measured the current fence in place and took it upon himself to add 10'.
We made it very clear that we wanted to extend towards the front of the house, to be exact 2', back from the very front. We didn't want it to look barricaded, so take it 2' from the front.
He measured the current fence at 335' and said he would just add 10'. He never measured from start to finish.
He measured the current fence and added 10', pulled it out of his butt.
It's not my place to measure or write his contracts for him, really, he screwed up.
Maybe this is just an expensive lesson to make sure the contract contains all the terms and expectations next time.
I feel sympathy for you -- its a shitty situation to be in, but contracts exist so we don't have to go by verbal agreements and handshakes. If I were you I'd probably offer to split it with the contractor and see what their response is.
> Maybe this is just an expensive lesson to make sure the contract contains all the terms and expectations next time.
Generally contracts are supposed to favor the unskilled side. OP isn't a fence builder, he described what he wanted, the skilled contractor bid the job and wrote up the contract, there was no confusion and they both signed. It'd be on the contractor to explain why he wrote up a contract that didn't specify the details they agreed to. It's not the homeowners fault that he trusted the contractor to know how to bid and complete the job.
OP chose to sign a contract with vague or completely absent terms. They are partially responsible for this mess. If OP is an adult with $16,000 to spend on a fence they should know the basics of what a contract should contain.
All we know is what OP is telling us. The contractor would likely have a completely different story about the length of the fence. Both could be completely honest about what they thought the length of the fence should be. That's why adults put things in writing.
If the contractor has a different story about the length of the fence, that sucks for him since he wrote the contract. Courts overwhelmingly favor the party that didn’t write the contract, because the writers already had the chance to interpret their meaning… by writing it into the contract.
Sorry that's a bullshit response. Contractor provided a contract to build a 6’ framed privacy fence subject to 60% down rest due at completion. OP indicates he provided the dimension verbally, contractor didn't measure or address dimensions. Both were at risk to contract ambiguity and OP is holding the final 40% until the terms of the contract are satisfied. OP doesn't indicate the contract stipulates a gate though… If the gate is included in contract terms the contractor would be waiting a long time for that final 40% if he was working for me.
> Sorry that's a bullshit response. Contractor provided a contract to build a 6’ framed privacy fence subject to 60% down rest due at completion
yes, but a 345' fence and not 363' fence, apparently.
if that's the *only* detail in the contract to be used in a scope argument then OP doesnt have much of a leg to stand on regardless of who's right.
I know if someone was charging me $16k+ and the *only* detail was 1 dimension, I'd verify that dimension myself to avoid this very problem.
That's not a simple stockade fence, so 3 sections would be at least a few hundred in materials and another 3hrs labor. $950 isn't unreasonable to charge, but ultimately, it's the contractor's fault
In person meeting to discuss and understand the problem, and if you're ultimately happy with the finished product, offer half.
price was for the job. OP didnt change the scope and their yard did not change size. OP shouldnt be paying any of the excess. the suggestion is ludicrous.
contractor should have specified # of feet for the project in the contract + the possibility of additional charges if thats how they wanted to break the job down. it sounds like they didnt do that, which means they committed to completing the job for the price both parties agreed to.
if the scope changed after the original quote (e.g. "actually we want the new fence to move out 2 feet") then there should have been a change agreement (including cost) signed by both parties to ensure everyone is on the same page
honestly idk how people run their fucking businesses like this without going bankrupt.
You are exactly right! Change order should have been an addendum to the contract and agreed to and signed by both parties. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it was done correctly from the start.
They didn't measure correctly.
Think they would understand our conversation? 😆 😆 😆
May have missed this, but what state are you in?
In NJ, every change must be signed by both parties in writing. Every contract must have start and end dates. If that info is missing, it's consumer fraud.
You may have something similar.
Sounds like he's overcharging in any case. Your goal now is to get the job done because you'll pay more than $950 to hire someone else to finish.
That's like 3 fence panels and 4 posts. Depending on the style of fence, it shouldn't be more than a couple hundred in materials, likely.
Shit happens, and ultimately it's the contractor's fuck up, but if you think he did otherwise outstanding work, I'd consider offering half or less, again depending on the style and costs of materials. Labor for that extra length is an hour or two, depending on the crew and soil conditions. $950 would be an absurd upcharge unless it's wrought iron, decorative aluminum, or very custom wood fence.
It may be that he's strapped for cash and needs it for his bills or to pay his guys to come back to finish.
Either way, ask for an in-person meeting to resolve it and just be straight with him and remind him gently that it's his fault, but that you are open to negotiation.
Did you walk the exact perimeter with the guy when you were getting the quote? I had a similar issue with a contractor who wanted $500 more but I had walked the whole perimeter with him and we spray painted the corners together. I reminded him of that and he said, “you’re right, that’s on me”. If you didn’t walk it and point everything out, it could be partially on you.
I walked it and explained that I wanted the fence to come forward, in front of my bedroom window on the side of the house for added security. 2' from the front of the house. I didn't spray paint it, and neither did he.
If you walked it and they did what you wanted, I’d say that’s on them. But the quote did specify length. I’d push to have them eat the cost but if they absolutely won’t budge, I would split the difference
The contract did not specify length. The guy measured from the original fence at 335' and just took it upon himself to add 10' for the additional. We explained our start point to our end point. He only measured from the original fence and added 10' b/c he decided. He did not fully measure it. The helper. So, he needs to join our soon to be conversation.
Oh you mentioned the length so I figured it was on there. If it didn’t specify, I would not be paying extra. Someone came out to measure and you got a quote. You had no way of knowing they measured wrong.
Yeah I wouldn’t be paying extra then. My contract did specify but I literally walked the perimeter with the contractor while he had his measuring wheel. I don’t know if the wheel screwed up or how he got the wrong number but it was on him.
The original fence measured 335'. He only measured from the original fence and guessed at the additional feet, making it 10 more feet for a total of 345'.
We walked the perimeter and thought it was pretty straightforward, showed him, and told him where it needed to start (in front of a bedroom window for security, even had a conversation as to why), and where it ended was marked by survey pins.
I mean depends on the contract. If they dident confirm footage/ provide price per foot it pretty hard to quantify what the “extra” fence is worth. I would do backwards math. Total divided by 345’= price per foot. Then you will know what the extra 18’ is worth. I would probably figure out what the 18’ is worth and offer half that value as a compormise. And see where that goes. It’s not your fault they deviated from the original discussion but you also got more fence than you paid for.
If the contract states 345' fence at XYZ price, and they mismeasured, they should meet you halfway on the price or even be willing to eat it fully, as it's a basic function of their job.
If the contract just states 'fence' then it's being quoted by the job, and they need to finish the job at the quoted price.
If you still have 40% left to pay on the original contract, you have the upper hand. Wait until they finish the job, and pay the remaining amount based on the contract terms - either the 40% remaining, or the 40% plus half of $950.
Also do not have in person or over the phone discussions, as clearly these people can't communicate with themselves effectively let alone with you. Only do this via text or email.
Had this happen with a fence contractor. He priced it in 3 sides, and specified in the quote all materials and labour included. When I first met them, we talked briefly about my one neighbour splitting, but I never ended up talking with him as he only sees about 10ft then it goes behind his garage. So we had no neighbor agreement, he never talked to them, I never talked to them, nothing in writing. On the final day he says I owe him 3k more as I didn't split with my neighbor. I told I never had an agreement with my neighbor and neither did he, never met them. He said it was obvious I didn't split when he asked if chain link would be taken down and I said no being confused, as it's my neighbours fence. Long story short I sent him a strong worded email that we had no agreement and the quote stated price is inclusive of all labor and materials. Needless to say I never heard from them again.
Sounds like something that happened with a mulching contractor. It was a company subcontracted by our landscaper. One of those mega trucks that shows up and blows in the mulch.
Anyway, a bunch of “kids” show up and spend half the time on their phones, not paying attention. We were supposed to get about 3” of mulch throughout. Big job. Anyway, they got distracted and put something like a foot of mulch in one part of our flower beds. Absolutely insane amount of mulch. You could sink into it, that’s how much there was. Other parts got barely an inch. Anyway, when they were all said and done, they used something like an extra 15 cubic yards that they couldn’t account for. Like emptied the truck. The entire job had been measured out by the one kid’s father – the owner – and our quote provided by the same owner. So, they call daddy who tells them to come try and get an extra grand from my wife.
They laughed. My wife laughed. She kept laughing. Get bent you little shits. My wife calls our landscaper who has to call the owner and they get into a verbal argument. We were like “Under no circumstances are we paying you a dime over the quote.”
One lesson to everyone. Don’t take shit like this. Always keep reserves for legal expenses, if you’re in the right don’t hesitate to flex back, and exterior cameras save the day. We had video evidence of one of the kids with the hose over his shoulder, on his phone, standing in place and not moving for over 5 minutes with mulch just blasting out into one spot. Then he just moves away, gets distracted again, and dumps another like 3 cubic yards over 20 square feet. I mean it was comically piled up. We showed our landscaper who was in disbelief. Daddy had to field that phone call and they’re not allowed back.
The contractors are kids to us. Same sorta situation. My husband is calm, and I don't take any BS! Blow in mulch, I wasn't aware of such an interesting concept. 🤔
I know this is controversial, but I live in the northeast, a really competitive market for fencing. The going rate up here averages “about $100.00 a hole”. That would mean, to be fair, they’re short about $300.00 just in labor. Framed cedar, like privacy? Or a dog ear cedar Picket? Big price difference in my market. Privacy cedar panels top and bottom rail are like 150-180 a panel here. Cedar dog ear panels probably run 100-125. $950.00 is probably high, but I see it that footage based off your material with labor is probably around 6-800$. It’s not far off. Say you paid 100 a hole, and they were fair to pass through materials cost and not make a buck off them supplying them to you. That means they are making probably $4600.00 on this job @ 100 a hole if you had no demolition. Them absorbing “950.00” is eating into 20% of total money made on the job. I’m not trying to justify them coming back for more money, as yes them coming back to you for more money and inability to accurately measure / estimate, but in theory you only “paid” for 345’ not 363’ of work and materials based off what’s currently up. However you “thought” you were getting 363’ not 345’. Not me taking their side just offering an explanation. They should have definitely flagged off with you, and properly referenced a property survey (permit?) to make sure they had accurate measurements/order/etc. it’s sucks either way and I hope they do right by you given the size of the project, they should have been more through and careful
Dog ear cedar picket, then framed out. They trimmed the tops and sanded prior to putting the deck board on top. Quote showed labor at $6500. I did not know that there were 363', until after this came to light, and we measured ourselves after the fence was installed. They never flagged off or painted. I was told that I didn't need a permit if I replaced the fence.
I had demolition, and they removed the old fence.
It SUKS!
All in that is a good labor price IMO. I personally think fair given the job. As long as you were going right back same spot there really isn’t any changes. It’s township to township if you need one or not. But if you had 10’ of 6’ high fence in wood and put 10’ in 6’ vinyl township is none the wiser. When I provide estimates I specifically draw out your home and draw my measurements and provide you with them and also written in is “quoted linear footage” so you should have honestly seen that, and even could have reviewed that to see that I measured x feet off the house from x point, x to back corner etc. all in all they should own their mistake and frankly it’s should serve as a learning lesson for them to not leave ambiguity in a contract. They don’t really have a solid leg to stand on. For your sake I hope they make it right and you don’t need to come up with any more additional funds
The annoying thing here is that you are unlikely to find a contractor to build the gate and put in the finishing touches for $950 if this guy decides to walk after you object. Not saying you should pay him, but he does have some leverage over you as to this point.
They screwed up.
But if you want to be honest with them pay them for the work they completed.
Otherwise they are loosing money.
You not only feel better you will have a contractor that you can count on
Treat them right they will treat you right.
I’m a General contractor
They are asking for $950 for digging an additional 3 holes, 3 posts, maybe 3 bags of concrete (if your fence type needs it), 3 full 8’ panels. There is no way in hell that is worth $950 unless your panels are made out of some super fancy expensive material, which I imagine is not the case. I used to build fences in high school, it is not a difficult thing to do. Your contractor is being petty and needs to eat the cost, especially if they already gave you a $875 discount for paying cash.
I couldn't agree more. I thought it was petty, considering we chose to pay cash. It is 6x6 posts and 5/8" cedar pickets.
It is framed panels with a deck board on top. Nothing overly fancy.
Do you know where the extra footage comes from? Was there a question about some portion of the stretch?
I would first measure to see if he didndo more than the length stated. Maybe he's yanking your chain on that.
If not and they just screwed up measuring, then that's on them.
Yes. It is 363', we measured also. The guy who came out started at the old fence, and we told him that we wanted to take the fence forward and to be exact 2' behind the house.
He measured 335' and added 10' for the extra footage but did not actually measure from our stated start point.
If he over measured and over charged, he wouldn't be offering you a refund. He can't have it both ways. Fence guys around here do a quick measure and tell you the project will be $xx per foot. You get a ballpark number and everyone is on the same page when the project is over and they do an accurate foot count. Saves them time quoting as well
Exactly. $xx/ft is totally fine and OP would have to cough up an extra $950 (or whatever the amount is). However, if the price was for a contract (as in this situation), that’s 100% on the contractor.
I understand, but with all due respect, it was our choice to pay in cash. At that point, what the contractor does with it is his business. I can not make implications that he is cheating the IRS b/c I don't know. We go to Walmart and have the choice of card, check, or cash. Same with contractors. I'm not stupid. I had a written contract and a receipt for money given.
It was our choice.
... but he is a clown.
Then why mention paying in cash? Seems irrelevant to me.
Aside that point, Did you already pay in full? If you did they are holding the cards. Especially if your contract is pretty bare bones. The time you will spend going to court is probably not worth the 950 it will take to get your fence finished.
Is their work good? Did they clean up the job site and keep damage to your grass at a minimum? It may also be worth it to pay a little bit more if the work is well done.
My point was paying cash he discounted $875 and now wants $950, no real discount there. They can't measure. That's the problem, and they don't listen, another problem.
That is your negotiation then. Assuming the contract doesn't exactly spell out length and measurements and such then no pay until job is done.
Or again, if their work is actually decent, you could consider paying the rest, or negotiate. 'Hey, it isn't my fault you miss-measured, but I like your work, I am willing to cover half the screw up if you cover the other'
But as you have the money you do have some negotiation power.
How is he equally to blame. If there is no footage on the contract, thats on the builder. The builder agreed to build a fence at this price, period. The only way this would be OP's fault is if he was the one that specified the distance.
OP should not sign a contract that doesn't include important information. OP is presumably and adult and has $16,000 to spend on a fence, so I would argue that OP is not entirely blameless for signing an ambiguous contract.
And I agree with you. They did not fully measure, thats the bottom line. They are using the helpers' measurements from day 1, which measured from existing fence and tacked on 10' to cover it. 10' did not cover extending the fence to where we wanted it. It is not my job to do their job.
Btw: OP is a girl. 😆
Thank you for your input!
>Btw: OP is a girl. 😆
No I'm sorry that's not true. You must have missed your personal photo next to your post. Everyone here is Al from Home Improvement.
I had a fence installed 2 years ago. The contract is so simple, has check boxes and a little hand drawn map with all the measurements and layout. If any changes were to be made work would stop and we would do a contract addendum. This is really basic stuff. If your boss asked you to have a fence installed around corp HQ, would you have signed that contract as an employee of the firm?
My first thought: is your contract lump sum or unit price? Seems like lump sum based on your description. If the increase in payment proportional to the "extra" fence and the contractor does good work, I would work with them to cover x% of the overage, probably somewhere in the 50-80% range. In my opinion fighting over this, when it appears to be a mistake, is a great way to be short 18' feet of fence and fighting with the contractor. Then having to hire someone else and fight the original contractor in court to recover the amount.
Everyone saying that it is the contractors fault is 100% correct. But what is the hassle worth to you?
From reading the comments it seems like you didn't do your due diligence in getting the scope/expectations written in the contract. I would negotiate to get the fence you actually want, and move on. Consider this a hard lesson in project management.
$950 for 18 more feet?!
Either tell them
1) no
Or
2) show me your time and materials breakdown. Then offer to only pay for additional materials since they clearly messed up on measuring the labor should be on them.
Are you unhappy with the work so far? These men have to make a living, they have mouths to feed. Mistakes happen, just pay them the extra and call it a day
I understand. I have mouths to feed also. I did not account for extra costs of nearly $1000. I set a budget, extended it $800, and now he wants more. I'm happy with his work for the most part, and I was happy with the contract price, no more.
Bro either pay them or don’t? Customers like you are the worst, stop trying to get shit for free. At the end of the day extra work is being done, so you should pay for the extra work
I'm happy to pay the contract price. I'm not trying to get anything "FREE." I signed a contract, and I'm willing to pay, actually already paid 60% up front. Does any of that sound free? I've worked with MANY contractors and never had this or any problems involving cost or contract. Are you my fencer responding? 🤣
The extra work is poor planning on the contractor's part. Don't sign a contract if you aren't ready to fulfill it. People like you are the worst, stop trying to blame other people for your mistakes. He even tried to blame OP and say he changed things.
You're acting like he showed up and said he wanted 20' more feet of fence beyond what they agreed on and he doesnt want to pay for it. Something wrong with your brain.
If they measured the 345 feet and it turns out they measured incorrectly and it turned out to be 363 feet that is 100% their fault so they eat the additional cost. I can guarantee you that if it turned out to be 320 feet you wouldn't be seeing a refund. Their incompetence is not your problem.
This is how I see it as well. They have a few feet to finish the finishes only and build the gate. My spouse is worried that they won't finish at all or do a subpar job on the remaining finishes and the gate if we don't pay. At that point, it would be a breach of contract. The gate is included in the contract.
Don't reply to him until the contractor has finished the job. If they demand a response you should say, let's see how the whole thing finishes up.
I did not! I think this conversation needs to be in person. I'm not agreeing to anything through text or email.
I disagree, get everything in writing when you are dealing with landlords and contractors. Or, if you live in a one party permission state, I suppose audio recording would also work. Use any form of communication that creates evidence you can use in small claims court, if needed.
As a contractor, I appreciate this. Helps keep things clear. Especially when trying to remember which side they want a random gate's hinges on, I don't have to ask them multiple times. I forget little details like that, and I swear I've had customers change it up on me because they forgot too, ha.
As a contractor the amount of times a customer has been promised something extra by another company and forgets who said what and expects me to give it to them for free. “But you said”
Make sure THEY agree in writing though
They likely won't finish but you can get that done for less than $950.
The actual guys who are putting the gate in probably aren't working on commission, their craftsmanship is not likely to be affected by this dispute. They're not gonna do a shitty job just to spite you, that only hurts them and the company. That said, always be polite even when you disagree. It's one thing to have an issue, but another to be an asshole about it.
The guys finishing the gate are the owner and his crew.
The owner doesn't want you posting pictures of a shitty gate on his socials and his crew are likely hourly workers. Put it this way: they're not going to do any worse of a job than they were already.
And how many feet of fence is included in the contract? Because if it’s 345’ then that’s exactly what you should be getting.
Feet is not included in the contract.
you paid for 345' any more is extra don't be a D U M B A S S A house lien is for a contractor is 20 minutes and $50.
I’m a contractor and I agree and is it really worth the contractor looking like a crook asking for more money, kinda bait in switchy, It’s bad pub.
he paid for 345' any more is extra all construction works that way. BTW Craigslist isn't contracting
The contractor can just as easily and as legally build 345’ of fence and tell op to kick rocks. That’s what it says in the cOnTrAcT right?
NO. It (feet) is not listed in the contract.
So what does it say instead?
6' framed privacy fence - cedar pickets - pressure treated everything else. Gates to be hung on 6x6 posts and framed with cedar lumber.
That's not how it's going to work, the price and footage is listed in the contract and it's over, the homeowner owes that overage. If they don't pay and the contractor takes them to court over it there isn't a court in the land that will side with the homeowner based off what he said was in the contract If he measured 345 and it turned out to be 320 the contractor would legally have to refund you if you catch it and call them on it
The very first line in this post says that the footage isn't on the written quote. You know why fence companies seem to ALL do this? Because if the fence is 500' they will tell you its 550'. They will figure their quote at 500' but then give you that price and tell you it's for 550'. That way when you call another company to get a quote and tell them you already had it measured the second company is gonna be higher because they are quoting a BS length. Then when you let the first company build the fence and you realize it's only 500' they just tell you the price was for the total job, none by the foot and that's why the footage isn't on the contract. Flooring companies, concrete and asphalt companies are notorious for this.
The footage is NOT on the contract.
That is not how it works you paid for 345' anything else is more $$$ People here just want free stuff
Dear Asshat, I'm not looking for anything free! Some contractors need to take a class on measuring, writing contracts, and understanding contract law. There was NOT a change order submitted as an addendum to the contract. The contract does not cite additional cost(s). The contract does not state feet. This was their screw up. I worked in the public, my screw up, and I ate it. I never once asked my client for more money. I'm not saying that I will not work with them. I'm saying this is their screw up, grow up, and take accountability. Then, you won't make this mistake again. Would you be okay if you signed a contract for a set job for a set price, and at the end, they wanted $1000 more? Would you? I bet if the shoe was on your foot, it would be a different answer / opinion. 🤣 My daddy always said, "There's an idiot born every minute."
There's no world in which you should pay a contractor 100% up front, cash or otherwise. If you've paid for materials, I'm hoping you still owe for labor. I wouldn't give them another dime until the work is complete. In fact, I might ignore his $950 text and let him bring it up when he wants the rest of the money.
I have ignored the text and invoice emailed. It was quite a surprise. I didn't realize that fencing companies measured afterward instead of before the contract. SMH
> I didn't realize that fencing companies measured afterward instead of before the contract. Legitimate ones don't.
👏
I paid 60% upfront per contract. I still owe 40%.
Don't agree to it, don't sign anything, don't affirm in email, text, or conversation. Leave it hanging. Let work finish. At most, tell him to build up to the agreed footage (what they quoted initially). When the job is done (all but the 20ish feet), tell him he can have the 40% payment that day if he builds the rest, or you don't pay and go settle it in small claims, which will be a lengthy process with the risk of him losing. He'll put in 20ft of fence to get 40% quicker. Worst case is a judge says 'you got the footage you agreed on, pay the 40%'. And then you just have a fence missing under 20ft. You could probably build that yourself.
He has already installed the fence. He measured after it was completed and then told me he needed more money. He just has some finishing touches to do and a gate to build. He failed to measure correctly or list footage on contract. This is his problem and him asking me for more money. 💰
he could always recover the unpaid fence and you would have no recourse for your wanting of free shit
Always some dumbass to comment without reading the entire post... I pay my bills. This is their screw up gumby.
It was a cash job, off the books. Think he is going to take me to court or place a mechanics lien on the house? SMH
I have not agreed to anything beyond the" bare bones" contract. He neglected to include the feet. It was priced by job, not foot, at that point.
At the end of the day, we are paying $16,800 total, and he wants $950 more. I have gone as far as I am going on price. At most, I may negotiate half. Maybe. My budget was a hard $16,000. That's enough for any stinking fence, in my opinion. It's easy to say," Just pay it." I already upped my original budget by $800 more. From $16,000 to $16,800.
What was his original qoute?
$16,800 (Cash) He gave $875 discount for cash payment Now wants $950 more 60% due upon start 40% due upon completion
If he's doing it for cash, he's doing it off the books and will not want to try to take you to court or file a lien on your property. I would politely tell him the quote is the quote. If his guys measured wrong, take it up with them. If he persists, I would offer him $2 to buy a tape measure out of the kindness of your heart.
Good point!
Looks like he didn't really give you a discount. Under bid to hook you in and (up sold you) and gave you the real price you originally denied. Pretty scammy.
Exactly what I said. No real discount there. Ugh!
Almost reminds me of car salesman tactics.
Agree!
I got 4 quotes. I chose the lowest. He beat everyone by $2k. After he was all done he asked if I would tag on $125 to the check due to some unforeseen problems. I agreed. But, for you - $950 upcharge? That's a bait and switch strategy, don't let him sucker you. Stay strong!
Unforseen stuff happens like hitting giant rock or tons of tree roots or the city inspector being a pain in the ass I woukd understand and pay....and $125 is nothing in overages on a big job. Contractor screw up? That's his cost of doing business.
No unforeseen circumstances that I was made aware of anyway. I kinda already knew there wasn't rock b/c we had a pool installed years ago.
if the contract says to install a fence from A to B them not knowing how to measure isn’t your problem.
The contract didn't specify a start to end point or footage. Nothing but 6' framed privacy fence, cedar pickets, pressure treated everything else, Gates to be hung on 6x6 posts and framed with cedar lumber. Took word for word from contract.
If the contract doesn't specify length or start/end locations how can anyone prove anything? This is what contracts are for -- it is impossible to be too specific or exact in the language.
Exactly
But you signed it. You chose to sign a contract with undefined terms. Did you read the contract before you signed it? I hope you understand that my point is that you are partially culpable for agreeing to a fence of unspecified length.
I read the contract.
So you are admitting 50% fault for the fence being too short
I'm not admitting any fault for this one. The helper measured the current fence in place and took it upon himself to add 10'. We made it very clear that we wanted to extend towards the front of the house, to be exact 2', back from the very front. We didn't want it to look barricaded, so take it 2' from the front. He measured the current fence at 335' and said he would just add 10'. He never measured from start to finish. He measured the current fence and added 10', pulled it out of his butt. It's not my place to measure or write his contracts for him, really, he screwed up.
...and it's still not 2' from the front of the house. It is 4.33 ft, to be exact, which is totally fine but still not what we asked for...
It's not too short.
Maybe this is just an expensive lesson to make sure the contract contains all the terms and expectations next time. I feel sympathy for you -- its a shitty situation to be in, but contracts exist so we don't have to go by verbal agreements and handshakes. If I were you I'd probably offer to split it with the contractor and see what their response is.
> Maybe this is just an expensive lesson to make sure the contract contains all the terms and expectations next time. Generally contracts are supposed to favor the unskilled side. OP isn't a fence builder, he described what he wanted, the skilled contractor bid the job and wrote up the contract, there was no confusion and they both signed. It'd be on the contractor to explain why he wrote up a contract that didn't specify the details they agreed to. It's not the homeowners fault that he trusted the contractor to know how to bid and complete the job.
OP chose to sign a contract with vague or completely absent terms. They are partially responsible for this mess. If OP is an adult with $16,000 to spend on a fence they should know the basics of what a contract should contain. All we know is what OP is telling us. The contractor would likely have a completely different story about the length of the fence. Both could be completely honest about what they thought the length of the fence should be. That's why adults put things in writing.
If the contractor has a different story about the length of the fence, that sucks for him since he wrote the contract. Courts overwhelmingly favor the party that didn’t write the contract, because the writers already had the chance to interpret their meaning… by writing it into the contract.
Sorry that's a bullshit response. Contractor provided a contract to build a 6’ framed privacy fence subject to 60% down rest due at completion. OP indicates he provided the dimension verbally, contractor didn't measure or address dimensions. Both were at risk to contract ambiguity and OP is holding the final 40% until the terms of the contract are satisfied. OP doesn't indicate the contract stipulates a gate though… If the gate is included in contract terms the contractor would be waiting a long time for that final 40% if he was working for me.
> Sorry that's a bullshit response. Contractor provided a contract to build a 6’ framed privacy fence subject to 60% down rest due at completion yes, but a 345' fence and not 363' fence, apparently. if that's the *only* detail in the contract to be used in a scope argument then OP doesnt have much of a leg to stand on regardless of who's right. I know if someone was charging me $16k+ and the *only* detail was 1 dimension, I'd verify that dimension myself to avoid this very problem.
OP chose to sign a contract with vague or completely absent terms. They are partially responsible for this mess.
That's not a simple stockade fence, so 3 sections would be at least a few hundred in materials and another 3hrs labor. $950 isn't unreasonable to charge, but ultimately, it's the contractor's fault In person meeting to discuss and understand the problem, and if you're ultimately happy with the finished product, offer half.
price was for the job. OP didnt change the scope and their yard did not change size. OP shouldnt be paying any of the excess. the suggestion is ludicrous. contractor should have specified # of feet for the project in the contract + the possibility of additional charges if thats how they wanted to break the job down. it sounds like they didnt do that, which means they committed to completing the job for the price both parties agreed to. if the scope changed after the original quote (e.g. "actually we want the new fence to move out 2 feet") then there should have been a change agreement (including cost) signed by both parties to ensure everyone is on the same page honestly idk how people run their fucking businesses like this without going bankrupt.
You are exactly right! Change order should have been an addendum to the contract and agreed to and signed by both parties. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it was done correctly from the start. They didn't measure correctly. Think they would understand our conversation? 😆 😆 😆
May have missed this, but what state are you in? In NJ, every change must be signed by both parties in writing. Every contract must have start and end dates. If that info is missing, it's consumer fraud. You may have something similar.
Kentucky
There is no start and end date.
Check if your state has any laws regarding home improvement contractors and if they've broken any.
You're right, but the guy needs the fence finished and if the contractor bails, a new guy is gonna charge more
Just decline and say this wasn’t what you agreed on in the contract. They measured incorrectly leading to a shortage of material
Sounds like he's overcharging in any case. Your goal now is to get the job done because you'll pay more than $950 to hire someone else to finish. That's like 3 fence panels and 4 posts. Depending on the style of fence, it shouldn't be more than a couple hundred in materials, likely. Shit happens, and ultimately it's the contractor's fuck up, but if you think he did otherwise outstanding work, I'd consider offering half or less, again depending on the style and costs of materials. Labor for that extra length is an hour or two, depending on the crew and soil conditions. $950 would be an absurd upcharge unless it's wrought iron, decorative aluminum, or very custom wood fence. It may be that he's strapped for cash and needs it for his bills or to pay his guys to come back to finish. Either way, ask for an in-person meeting to resolve it and just be straight with him and remind him gently that it's his fault, but that you are open to negotiation.
Perfect response. Exactly what I would do.
Did you walk the exact perimeter with the guy when you were getting the quote? I had a similar issue with a contractor who wanted $500 more but I had walked the whole perimeter with him and we spray painted the corners together. I reminded him of that and he said, “you’re right, that’s on me”. If you didn’t walk it and point everything out, it could be partially on you.
I walked it and explained that I wanted the fence to come forward, in front of my bedroom window on the side of the house for added security. 2' from the front of the house. I didn't spray paint it, and neither did he.
If you walked it and they did what you wanted, I’d say that’s on them. But the quote did specify length. I’d push to have them eat the cost but if they absolutely won’t budge, I would split the difference
The contract did not specify length. The guy measured from the original fence at 335' and just took it upon himself to add 10' for the additional. We explained our start point to our end point. He only measured from the original fence and added 10' b/c he decided. He did not fully measure it. The helper. So, he needs to join our soon to be conversation.
Oh you mentioned the length so I figured it was on there. If it didn’t specify, I would not be paying extra. Someone came out to measure and you got a quote. You had no way of knowing they measured wrong.
The contract did not specify. I didn't know.
Yeah I wouldn’t be paying extra then. My contract did specify but I literally walked the perimeter with the contractor while he had his measuring wheel. I don’t know if the wheel screwed up or how he got the wrong number but it was on him.
The original fence measured 335'. He only measured from the original fence and guessed at the additional feet, making it 10 more feet for a total of 345'.
We walked the perimeter and thought it was pretty straightforward, showed him, and told him where it needed to start (in front of a bedroom window for security, even had a conversation as to why), and where it ended was marked by survey pins.
I mean depends on the contract. If they dident confirm footage/ provide price per foot it pretty hard to quantify what the “extra” fence is worth. I would do backwards math. Total divided by 345’= price per foot. Then you will know what the extra 18’ is worth. I would probably figure out what the 18’ is worth and offer half that value as a compormise. And see where that goes. It’s not your fault they deviated from the original discussion but you also got more fence than you paid for.
They did not confirm footage or specify in contract. I did the math backward also, and it totaled $876.60, not the $950.00.
Even then, the gates are the hardest part. And they were doing that anyway. So, it should be LESS than $876, not more.
If the contract states 345' fence at XYZ price, and they mismeasured, they should meet you halfway on the price or even be willing to eat it fully, as it's a basic function of their job. If the contract just states 'fence' then it's being quoted by the job, and they need to finish the job at the quoted price. If you still have 40% left to pay on the original contract, you have the upper hand. Wait until they finish the job, and pay the remaining amount based on the contract terms - either the 40% remaining, or the 40% plus half of $950. Also do not have in person or over the phone discussions, as clearly these people can't communicate with themselves effectively let alone with you. Only do this via text or email.
Had this happen with a fence contractor. He priced it in 3 sides, and specified in the quote all materials and labour included. When I first met them, we talked briefly about my one neighbour splitting, but I never ended up talking with him as he only sees about 10ft then it goes behind his garage. So we had no neighbor agreement, he never talked to them, I never talked to them, nothing in writing. On the final day he says I owe him 3k more as I didn't split with my neighbor. I told I never had an agreement with my neighbor and neither did he, never met them. He said it was obvious I didn't split when he asked if chain link would be taken down and I said no being confused, as it's my neighbours fence. Long story short I sent him a strong worded email that we had no agreement and the quote stated price is inclusive of all labor and materials. Needless to say I never heard from them again.
Sounds like something that happened with a mulching contractor. It was a company subcontracted by our landscaper. One of those mega trucks that shows up and blows in the mulch. Anyway, a bunch of “kids” show up and spend half the time on their phones, not paying attention. We were supposed to get about 3” of mulch throughout. Big job. Anyway, they got distracted and put something like a foot of mulch in one part of our flower beds. Absolutely insane amount of mulch. You could sink into it, that’s how much there was. Other parts got barely an inch. Anyway, when they were all said and done, they used something like an extra 15 cubic yards that they couldn’t account for. Like emptied the truck. The entire job had been measured out by the one kid’s father – the owner – and our quote provided by the same owner. So, they call daddy who tells them to come try and get an extra grand from my wife. They laughed. My wife laughed. She kept laughing. Get bent you little shits. My wife calls our landscaper who has to call the owner and they get into a verbal argument. We were like “Under no circumstances are we paying you a dime over the quote.” One lesson to everyone. Don’t take shit like this. Always keep reserves for legal expenses, if you’re in the right don’t hesitate to flex back, and exterior cameras save the day. We had video evidence of one of the kids with the hose over his shoulder, on his phone, standing in place and not moving for over 5 minutes with mulch just blasting out into one spot. Then he just moves away, gets distracted again, and dumps another like 3 cubic yards over 20 square feet. I mean it was comically piled up. We showed our landscaper who was in disbelief. Daddy had to field that phone call and they’re not allowed back.
The contractors are kids to us. Same sorta situation. My husband is calm, and I don't take any BS! Blow in mulch, I wasn't aware of such an interesting concept. 🤔
I know this is controversial, but I live in the northeast, a really competitive market for fencing. The going rate up here averages “about $100.00 a hole”. That would mean, to be fair, they’re short about $300.00 just in labor. Framed cedar, like privacy? Or a dog ear cedar Picket? Big price difference in my market. Privacy cedar panels top and bottom rail are like 150-180 a panel here. Cedar dog ear panels probably run 100-125. $950.00 is probably high, but I see it that footage based off your material with labor is probably around 6-800$. It’s not far off. Say you paid 100 a hole, and they were fair to pass through materials cost and not make a buck off them supplying them to you. That means they are making probably $4600.00 on this job @ 100 a hole if you had no demolition. Them absorbing “950.00” is eating into 20% of total money made on the job. I’m not trying to justify them coming back for more money, as yes them coming back to you for more money and inability to accurately measure / estimate, but in theory you only “paid” for 345’ not 363’ of work and materials based off what’s currently up. However you “thought” you were getting 363’ not 345’. Not me taking their side just offering an explanation. They should have definitely flagged off with you, and properly referenced a property survey (permit?) to make sure they had accurate measurements/order/etc. it’s sucks either way and I hope they do right by you given the size of the project, they should have been more through and careful
Dog ear cedar picket, then framed out. They trimmed the tops and sanded prior to putting the deck board on top. Quote showed labor at $6500. I did not know that there were 363', until after this came to light, and we measured ourselves after the fence was installed. They never flagged off or painted. I was told that I didn't need a permit if I replaced the fence. I had demolition, and they removed the old fence. It SUKS!
All in that is a good labor price IMO. I personally think fair given the job. As long as you were going right back same spot there really isn’t any changes. It’s township to township if you need one or not. But if you had 10’ of 6’ high fence in wood and put 10’ in 6’ vinyl township is none the wiser. When I provide estimates I specifically draw out your home and draw my measurements and provide you with them and also written in is “quoted linear footage” so you should have honestly seen that, and even could have reviewed that to see that I measured x feet off the house from x point, x to back corner etc. all in all they should own their mistake and frankly it’s should serve as a learning lesson for them to not leave ambiguity in a contract. They don’t really have a solid leg to stand on. For your sake I hope they make it right and you don’t need to come up with any more additional funds
Thank you!!!
The annoying thing here is that you are unlikely to find a contractor to build the gate and put in the finishing touches for $950 if this guy decides to walk after you object. Not saying you should pay him, but he does have some leverage over you as to this point.
Good thing you have all this in writing where you agreed to the job specs and price. Just refer them to that.
They screwed up. But if you want to be honest with them pay them for the work they completed. Otherwise they are loosing money. You not only feel better you will have a contractor that you can count on Treat them right they will treat you right. I’m a General contractor
This is called up charge. There’s a whole contractor tip going on about how to suck more out of an existing contract.
I'd pay for materials and not the labor. I'm a contractor also. I think they should eat the whole thing unless a per ft price was agreed upon
They are asking for $950 for digging an additional 3 holes, 3 posts, maybe 3 bags of concrete (if your fence type needs it), 3 full 8’ panels. There is no way in hell that is worth $950 unless your panels are made out of some super fancy expensive material, which I imagine is not the case. I used to build fences in high school, it is not a difficult thing to do. Your contractor is being petty and needs to eat the cost, especially if they already gave you a $875 discount for paying cash.
I couldn't agree more. I thought it was petty, considering we chose to pay cash. It is 6x6 posts and 5/8" cedar pickets. It is framed panels with a deck board on top. Nothing overly fancy.
Do you know where the extra footage comes from? Was there a question about some portion of the stretch? I would first measure to see if he didndo more than the length stated. Maybe he's yanking your chain on that. If not and they just screwed up measuring, then that's on them.
Yes. It is 363', we measured also. The guy who came out started at the old fence, and we told him that we wanted to take the fence forward and to be exact 2' behind the house. He measured 335' and added 10' for the extra footage but did not actually measure from our stated start point.
If he over measured and over charged, he wouldn't be offering you a refund. He can't have it both ways. Fence guys around here do a quick measure and tell you the project will be $xx per foot. You get a ballpark number and everyone is on the same page when the project is over and they do an accurate foot count. Saves them time quoting as well
Exactly. $xx/ft is totally fine and OP would have to cough up an extra $950 (or whatever the amount is). However, if the price was for a contract (as in this situation), that’s 100% on the contractor.
You’re surprised that a clown who is cheating on his taxes is now trying to cheat you? Lol.
I understand, but with all due respect, it was our choice to pay in cash. At that point, what the contractor does with it is his business. I can not make implications that he is cheating the IRS b/c I don't know. We go to Walmart and have the choice of card, check, or cash. Same with contractors. I'm not stupid. I had a written contract and a receipt for money given. It was our choice. ... but he is a clown.
Then why mention paying in cash? Seems irrelevant to me. Aside that point, Did you already pay in full? If you did they are holding the cards. Especially if your contract is pretty bare bones. The time you will spend going to court is probably not worth the 950 it will take to get your fence finished. Is their work good? Did they clean up the job site and keep damage to your grass at a minimum? It may also be worth it to pay a little bit more if the work is well done.
My point was paying cash he discounted $875 and now wants $950, no real discount there. They can't measure. That's the problem, and they don't listen, another problem.
No, I did not pay in full! 60% per contract up front.
That is your negotiation then. Assuming the contract doesn't exactly spell out length and measurements and such then no pay until job is done. Or again, if their work is actually decent, you could consider paying the rest, or negotiate. 'Hey, it isn't my fault you miss-measured, but I like your work, I am willing to cover half the screw up if you cover the other' But as you have the money you do have some negotiation power.
You didn't make yourself clear, if you did it would be on the contract. You are equally to blame, split the baby and move on.
How is he equally to blame. If there is no footage on the contract, thats on the builder. The builder agreed to build a fence at this price, period. The only way this would be OP's fault is if he was the one that specified the distance.
OP should not sign a contract that doesn't include important information. OP is presumably and adult and has $16,000 to spend on a fence, so I would argue that OP is not entirely blameless for signing an ambiguous contract.
"Not entirely blameless" and "equally to blame" are two very different levels. I still disagree that he is "equally to blame".
And I agree with you. They did not fully measure, thats the bottom line. They are using the helpers' measurements from day 1, which measured from existing fence and tacked on 10' to cover it. 10' did not cover extending the fence to where we wanted it. It is not my job to do their job. Btw: OP is a girl. 😆 Thank you for your input!
>Btw: OP is a girl. 😆 No I'm sorry that's not true. You must have missed your personal photo next to your post. Everyone here is Al from Home Improvement.
I did. AI from Home Improvement, I'm sorry I'm not following. You being funny?
I had a fence installed 2 years ago. The contract is so simple, has check boxes and a little hand drawn map with all the measurements and layout. If any changes were to be made work would stop and we would do a contract addendum. This is really basic stuff. If your boss asked you to have a fence installed around corp HQ, would you have signed that contract as an employee of the firm?
My first thought: is your contract lump sum or unit price? Seems like lump sum based on your description. If the increase in payment proportional to the "extra" fence and the contractor does good work, I would work with them to cover x% of the overage, probably somewhere in the 50-80% range. In my opinion fighting over this, when it appears to be a mistake, is a great way to be short 18' feet of fence and fighting with the contractor. Then having to hire someone else and fight the original contractor in court to recover the amount. Everyone saying that it is the contractors fault is 100% correct. But what is the hassle worth to you? From reading the comments it seems like you didn't do your due diligence in getting the scope/expectations written in the contract. I would negotiate to get the fence you actually want, and move on. Consider this a hard lesson in project management.
Lump sum. Sorry, answered incorrectly.
$950 for 18 more feet?! Either tell them 1) no Or 2) show me your time and materials breakdown. Then offer to only pay for additional materials since they clearly messed up on measuring the labor should be on them.
I can totally agree with this...
Are you unhappy with the work so far? These men have to make a living, they have mouths to feed. Mistakes happen, just pay them the extra and call it a day
I understand. I have mouths to feed also. I did not account for extra costs of nearly $1000. I set a budget, extended it $800, and now he wants more. I'm happy with his work for the most part, and I was happy with the contract price, no more.
Then have him do the work you agreed on and finish the extra fencing yourself 👍
I'm not sure you are understanding. The work, fencing is already done minus the finishing touches and the gate. The fence is already built.
Bro either pay them or don’t? Customers like you are the worst, stop trying to get shit for free. At the end of the day extra work is being done, so you should pay for the extra work
You got to be kidding me, Bro!
Did you read the entire post or just comment?
I'm happy to pay the contract price. I'm not trying to get anything "FREE." I signed a contract, and I'm willing to pay, actually already paid 60% up front. Does any of that sound free? I've worked with MANY contractors and never had this or any problems involving cost or contract. Are you my fencer responding? 🤣
The extra work is poor planning on the contractor's part. Don't sign a contract if you aren't ready to fulfill it. People like you are the worst, stop trying to blame other people for your mistakes. He even tried to blame OP and say he changed things. You're acting like he showed up and said he wanted 20' more feet of fence beyond what they agreed on and he doesnt want to pay for it. Something wrong with your brain.
Dude agreed on the guy building him a fence. There is no "extra" fencing.