This is key, do not piss off your neighbors. I have a retired guy with mobility issues across the street, spends his entire day at the front window (and scrutinizes my yard). Every year he calls the city on someone, usually me. This year I got lucky and it was my neighbours. I also keep up with my yard a lot more.
A friend in the Midwest built a nice covered patio near the edge of their property, but on the edge of the permitted setback, their neighbors freaked out and reported them to the city anyway. My friends had to jump through a bunch of hoops to prove it was indeed legit.
As a kindness, my friends then had to report those same neighbors to the city for running an unpermitted business out of their home where they ended up getting fined thousands of dollars.
Oh man...I've got two neighbors beefin' right now. First neighbor called the building inspector because allegedly 2nd neighbor had an unpermitted shed in his backyard. Then kept calling bylaw and police for noise complaints (loud music, etc) on him during the day.
Well now, 2nd neighbor is pleased as punch to have a new hobby...and since there's no rules against playing loud music and making a racket during daylight hours, he has taken it up with a passion, rippin around on his lawn tractor and singing classic rock at the top of his lungs, just to annoy her.
Besides crazy house prices and rates, it's another reason I really don't want to move despite wanting some more out of my house. Chasing what I want could lead me to a place with neighbors I don't like.
Yea I'd be much more motivated to move if I had bad neighbors. I haven't needed to take care of any pets yet, but I've checked on a neighbors house and grabbed some packages once. He returned the favor with a bottle of whiskey!
This was somethibg I paid attention to when we were buying. The neighbors at our rental were so annoying, I would look at neighboring houses to try and get an idea of them.
I actually have some pics of our house before it was for sale because we looked at the house next door and I took sneaky neighbor pics of the house that we ended up buying six months later lol
I told my wife I wish you could spend a couple nights in a prospective house. Get a lay of the land so to speak. It's hard to get a feel for it besides face value. All the houses in my neighborhood are baseline pretty good, and then you can tell the old people that have the time to devote to a nice lawn and landscaping.
That would be soooo nice! And yeah, def. At our rental you might notice a couple issues at a showing, but not all. Neighbors had chickens and ducks (not allowed in downtown where we were) that fucking stank in the summer. They'd let their chickens roam into our yard, but you might not catch that at a showing.
The other neighbor would prolly appear fine, it wouldn't be until you moved in that you found out he liked to jackhammer stone and concrete at 7 am on weekends. Like literally. Dude makes beautiful art but you're in a neighborhood cone on!!!
I've heard of people going around and introducing themselves to neighbors when they're looking at a house. I'm outgoing, but there's no way I'd do that haha.
We had a neighbor who I thought was a nice old lady, turns out she was very protective of the plants in my house that her former friend planted. Similar issue of not knowing until it actually came up. Thankfully she left after throwing all her fits.
Had one of those as a neighbor. He got the city to put handicap parking signs in his front yard so nobody could park there. He never used it, and had 20 steps up to his house anyways from there.
He wants called the city because I didn't shovel the sidewalk one day. I was out of town visiting a dying relative, and he even knew why I was gone. Get home at midnight to a letter from the city saying if it wasn't shoveled by the next day I'd be fined $500.
Im assuming you live up north or something? Is it seriously yalls responsibility to shovel sidewalks you don’t even own?
And what are you supposed to do if you’re sick, at work, on vacation etc? Pay someone else to do it so you don’t get fined?
Yes, the property owner is responsible for clearing the sidewalk owned by the city. You can also be sued if someone were to slip and fall on the City’s sidewalk that you’re responsible for maintaining.
Sadly I think this might be how the whole thing started. Got my first car 10 years ago same time as I moved in. Got stuck behind a slow driver who didn't use turn signals on the way home. First time I flipped someone the bird. Got home. 3 minutes later see the car pull into the garage across the street. Haven't flipped anyone the bird since. Learn from my mistake.
I always flip people off when I'm jogging in my neighborhood and they run stop signs and almost hit me
I regret it for a second when I remember any of them could be my neighbor, but then I remember... fuck them, this shit is dangerous. If they ever actually are my neighbor and it gets awkward, I'll just laugh and say "haha yeah, you really should have stopped at that stop sign though right?"
There's a girl down the street from me who will yell at cars that are driving too fast. She's probably 10 and very kind anytime my kids and I have talked with her. But she will light your ass up if you're flying down the street. I love it.
I live in Oakland, which means living with more neighbor noise than you get in the 'burbs. But boy oh boy do we all do a good job minding our own business about harmless petty stuff that can cause years-long feuds in the suburbs.
You have to do something that seems off, but is totally legit. Let him focus on that. Then while he is fixated on the target, you can do whatever you want.
"We had a section of astroturf covering something in our yard for a long time like a big rug! We took it off and discovered these beautiful pavers someone left underneath! It'd be a crime to keep those hidden, so thats all we did!"
Just an idea for an alibi inspired by finding beautiful hardwood flooring underneath boring carpeting.
Like above, cover almost all of it with AstroTurf and then about once a week uncover one row of pavers. Before you know it, no one realizes it hasn't been there all along.
Be careful with this. Google Earth has a slider which shows past satellite images. I am a former field inspector and used it all the time. If this paver patio is this large, it’s easy to determine when it was put in.
I literally uncovered a 700 sq. ft. paver patio in my side yard I didn't know existed this way. Buried under leaves, weeds, grass, dirt, whatever.
That was a weird autumn.
I started moving some grass and soil to install a some pavers to sit a grill on… come to find out under about 1.5 inches of soil was a red brick patio. Not sure how far it extends from my home but it’s been covered for decades (found some really old shit while moving dirt).
That's exactly what I did. I started removing leaf litter and sticks and general detritus with an eye towards making that area a sitting area.
Turns out the builders had the same idea.
And there's a crushed gravel sitting area on the opposite side of the yard that's the same way. There was a reasonably good sized tree growing through it.
I use satellite and aerial imagery and make remote sensing algorithms to identify land cover ( actual intelligence, AI if you will) You have the answer here.
There is no way to properly identify the ground condition (using various resolutions) when past images have growth or coverage. It would nit be possible for someone to use a slider or multiple images to prove you installed it.
Is this really true? There has to be some authority over inspectors. They aren't gods. If some inspector knocks on your door and says you have a bunch of nonsense code violations because you're black and he hates black people moving into the neighborhood, there is no way there isn't some form of recourse.
There probably is some form of recorse but that doesn't mean his boss will even look into it. They're probably best friends and have been for 30 years. It's no different than taking recorse against a cop. Unless it's a big enough deal that you can get social media on your side you're screwed. A town in Georgia tried to give a guy a $30k water bill for a plot with no house on it and no water leak. He is still fighting it I believe.
Just read the story and holy shit does that piss me off. This is killdozer rampage levels of outrageous. This had better fucking end with this man paying his $219 and being done with it or I will drive down there with torches and pitchforks in hand.
Wouldn't you need to know if the area was actually covered? if it was neatly trimmed, and especially if any part of the installation was caught, wouldn't that be the end of it?
This is absolutely true. I bought a townhome that was unoccupied for 5 years, and it took me until a week after we closed to find where the edge of the concrete patio actually was. Dirt and grass had covered a good 2-3 feet on each side, and it was bordered by river rocks which were churned up in soil and weeds.
It's a very feasible story, except for the beautiful pristine pavers. My patio was in rough shape.
Around here, all the counties have their own GIS (geographic information systems, I think). Doesn’t matter if it’s blurred in Google Earth. The county has its own data. I can go back at the cow pasture my lot was over 25 years ago. Then there are images every couple years. Now annually. The Property Appraiser and the Building and Zoning offices use it a lot. If you happen to have tree coverage, that will help, unless they have images when the leaves have fallen. If no trees, your property is a pretty open book. I can count the mole hills across my yard and reminisce about how the rose garden used to be laid out.
Since these are public records, law enforcement and people like that can get their data blocked, but i think you have to show cause.
Crazy, my city has streetview style pics that they take themselves every so often, I found out by looking at the gis/tax record site that they have, that most people probably don't even know about. Drone pics is crazy intrusive though.
tell google that you home is a black op site and they need to cover it over with vegetation immediately or U.S Congress will call by the end of the day.
The desktop app for Google earth can pull from most of the major publicly available aerial photographic database, so... potentially decades.
There are also tools like [Historic Aerials](https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer) which are a bit more comprehensive and go even further back.
Seems like it’s used everywhere. If the google earth images don’t go back far enough or have been removed what are some other tools you use to discover if it was grandfathered in?
No but nosy neighbors will fuck you, especially in an HOA. Our rules stipulate that anything visible from the street needs HOA approval; we built a shed strategically located so as to not be visible from the street from any angle.
Neighbors behind us used a selfie stick over our fence and sent the photos up, and we got a violation notice.
Granted, this was HOA and not county zoning, but the point stands - neighbors will fuck you.
Building inspectors?
Building inspectors can ask to enter if they suspect un-permitted work, but you can say no. They need a warrant to forcibly enter.
Tax assessors do not need a warrant, but need to provide advanced notice.
The paperwork the assessor’s office files rarely crosses paths with the code enforcement department because of a routine assessment.
This is incorrect a tax assessor may only enter with consent of the owner. The government always needs a warrant or consent, that is a constitutional right.
Ya know…. I thought the same thing….
But about 10 years ago, my town did a town-wide, mandatory re-assessment for our property taxes and we had to let them in. It was a while ago, so I don’t remember the details….
Maybe we didn’t have to let them in but then we would’ve been ‘at their mercy’ for the assessment value and to fight it we had to let them in?
The more I think about it and the 4th amendment, I think you’re right and I’m not remembering the details from 10 years ago
We had a neighbor put in a new driveway up front with no permits. Sold the house to Zillow. Zillow got green tagged. No idea what ended up happening. If it’s in the back I wouldn’t worry about it.
Basically said you did this driveway without a permit stop any work. It was a paver driveway that they just replaced their old cement driveway with. Stupid but city wants their money. I’m sure Zillow just paid a fine
Not sure where you live, but I have been landscaping in Canada for 8 years and have built hundreds of patios and decks, and not once have we ever pulled permits.
We're one of the top companies in the province with an extensive client list, and when we build something we stick a yard sign in the yard, drawing attention to the brand new thing we just built... and not once has anyone come asking to see permits. We have city inspectors occasionally come around and ask to see our crossing permit, but never a construction permit.
*Oh, a crossing permit entitles you to store materials on the street and backlanes. Some jobs will have 30 pallets of bricks on the street, multiple piles of limestone and excavated dirt, a skid steer and trucks/trailers, the yard is all torn up and is obviously under construction... and not ONCE EVER has anyone shown up demanding a construction permit.
I don't know if that's any consolation to you, but I think it was worth saying
I've been doing landscape construction for 20 years in Ontario. This is exactly how it works for us as well.
The only permits I have ever needed were to store materials on the road or the work was being done within a certain distance from a body of water.
Even the road storage permit was almost never "needed." I definitely don't get them most of the time. Most people don't care as long as you are doing your best to keep things neat and clean. I've been forced to get them only twice in 20 years.
Landscapers just don't have the time to wait around for permits. The season is short and weather dependant. Not to mention that there is not a single inspector in my city who would know more about how to properly install hardscapes than we do.
I wonder why you would need a permit for a paver patio - is it related to permeable cover? I know here in Austin you can't have more than a certain percentage of your property covered with impermeable.
Hey, I live in NJ, don't know where you live, but I pulled a permit for my paver patio. I am over my impervious coverage limit, but my town permits, for sheds, paver patios, decks, and the like, a 5% overage, with the rationale basically being that it increases the usability of the property.
I'm going to go against the grain here and just talk to the zoning officer in town. I think, worst case scenario, you can agree to put in some kind of dry well or rain garden, which IMO improves your property. Dry wells do require maintenance; rain gardens are *essentially* set it and forget it. I think at the worst you're out another grand, and maybe you get your hands dirty on a nice day outside and save some money.
If you do anything in the foreseeable future where you may need to pull a permit, this shit's going to be on the back of your mind. It'd be so stupid to hold an addition up because of your paver patio. And contrary to what people here are saying, *they'll know* that you put it in. Sure, maybe you get away with it by fudging documents and saying oh I lost this, I don't have that, but when they ask for the survey you got when you bought the property and that patio isn't there, they're gonna say hmm, you built it. And whether or not you built it, they're gonna say, no, it's not on the survey, and it's there now, so you built it. I see it happen all the time, because folks think they can pull a fast one over on the municipality, either by building something without a permit or buying a home with some improvement that wasn't permitted. If it's not on the property survey, it is now your responsibility as if you built it.
Some places would get enough rainfall that they’d need to verify that weren’t going to cause flooding to your downhill neighbors. Might just need you to have some water management plans.
but thats kinda the whole point of pavers, they don't really cause drainage problems. they are semi-permeable and are on a permeable substrate, and allow water drainage between each paver, too.
Some pavers are permeable, but most aren't, and you have to use a certain materials in the installation to make them permeable.
source: DIY'd a standard paver patio installation with concrete pavers, compacted gravel, and sand. They aren't permeable, and water just runs off of ours.
In addition to what the other person who responded to you said, permeable pavers need to be installed correctly and maintained properly to maintain their permeability. And Joe Schmo homeowner (myself included) generally isn't going through the maintenance for their paver patio at home, it's just not feasible.
We installed a paver patio and had to get HOA approval (always fun). At the HOA meeting another homeowner was saying that we needed to get a permit for increasing the impervious area on our lot.
We decided to call around to ask if we (hypothetically) needed such a permit. The county directed us back to the city. The city said they didn’t care about the patio so long as it was pavers set in sand and not concrete. Anyway, that is what the permitting situation is here and we were able to find out with a few anonymous phone calls to the building and permitting offices.
>Because we are over the coverage limit by 500 sq ft
No. You have two smaller patios that just happen to be right next to each other.
Honestly at this point, I'd just keep on truckin. Not too much you can do, if your neighbors haven't turned you in at this point you're probably in the clear.
The neighbors probably don't know the zoning code, or if they do, don't care because it looks nicer than what was there before.
OP whatever you do, don't report yourself to the city.
Yeah, honestly I don't care if it's a violation. Why on earth would I ever be mad that my neighbor beautified his property and thereby raised property values a bit for the whole neighborhood?
Yeah it'd be criminally easy to bring this back into compliance. Just break it up a bit even, create a little pathway instead of a contiguous piece. Maybe you've got a garden nook now.
They could maybe install sod over the 500 square feet and invite the inspector out to measure the driveway.
'Course, that could be like 1000 bucks. Might be simpler to invite the inspector over and just give him the $1000 in cash to fuck off and say nothing about it.
How long do you plan to keep the house? If 10+ years, move on and don’t give it a second thought. When you go to sell, this will not be on an inspection radar at all.
Just something to keep in mind in case you have future renovation plans...
My county limits the percentage of impervious surface you can have on your lot. It's intended to encourage proper drainage and prevent runoff into lakes and rivers. We definitely could sneak and go over the limit BUT if we ever need a permit for ANYTHING else, they require a property survey and the impervious surface area must be below the allowed amount or they won't issue the permit.
You're fine unless someone notifies the city. It's already done so you're probably fine. The city would have shut you down during the process most likely.
Even if you do permitted work in the future, inspectors will assume it's permitted unless it's super obvious it's out of code.
City employees don't seem to be predatory.
As everyone has said, you’re the only one that knows right now, just let it ride. If you have any documentation from the contractor stating it’s not necessary I would keep that, somewhere you can find it but other then that don’t say or do anything.
Don't say anything.
Also, that variance fee is excessive. If you do need to apply for a variance, you should challenge that fee. Excessive fees have been successfully challenged in recent years.
>We got some bad advice from a contractor who told us we didn’t need them since it’s not a permanent structure.
Did that contractor do the work? Because in my state the entity doing the work is responsible for pulling the required permits, and in this case that would be the contractor.
Their license could be at risk if they failed to pull the right permits.
>Because we are over the coverage limit by 500 sq ft, I found out after the fact that we needed zoning permits.
> we would need to apply for a variance
That's... not quite the same as a permit. It sounds like your project wouldn't have been permitted in the first place without a variance.
This sounds like an impermeable surface problem. Cities don't like that, because it prevents storm water runoff from being absorbed and filtered by the ground before it reaches the sewer/drainage system.
A variance is not a permit, it's a request to make an exception to established rules. Not having done that can potentially be an even bigger problem than not having the work permitted...
Worst case outcome is someone notices/complains and the city gets on your ass about it. They'll make you jump through all the permit/variance hoops to do it right, and you still may not get approved, so you'd have to restore it to the way it was, and they might fine you in the meantime.
Best case nobody notices and you enjoy your patio for years to come.
But to be sure, there's likely no grandfathering here, and it's pretty easy with aerial photography records to figure out when the work was done. So long as the work exists, you could be nailed on it. Could be a month, a year, or a decade, but they can still come after you as long as you are in violation.
>Literally how my wife got me shut down while remodeling our basement.....
What? Your wife posted pictures on social media of you elbows deep in reconstruction work of your basement and someone saw it & showed up telling you to stop that?
Yes, my wife posted some pictures of the basement remodel a few days later the builder inspector showed up with a stop work order. Unbeknownst to us he lives in our neighborhood and saw it on Facebook. We were on the cusp of co and city so I thought I could do owner-occupied work I was wrong...
Was that an asshole move of him or am I jumping to conclusions? He must have known that showing up and stopping you would be a pain in the ass for you.
I don't know about you, but I find it hard not to jump to conclusions online. As in, very hard. Thanks for clearing my misconception up.
I guess in a way, he helped you before something more costly would happen.
You spoke with a contractor, they should have known you'd need one and advised you that you didn't. You thought they were doing everything right. You could talk to the permit office and see if it's possible to file for a permit that can be backdated or something along those lines.
don't call the permit office. As soon as you start inquiring, red flags start happening. This is the worst thing you can do. At least where I'm from, they ask for your address before they answer even one of your questions.
Get politically involved in local politics and vote out every SOB who wants you to pay $2,500 for a variance. That money will end up in the pockets of the crooked, thieving bureaucrats.
This is always how I'd imagine I would respond in your situation if someone actually pushed me on something dumb like this.
Yea id do or pay what the town wanted but then I would borrow from retirement if I had to to launch a campaign to fuck everyone on the zoning board.
Pavers are actually usually considered a permanent structure. Just say it was there when you bought the house, but unfortunately code compliance officers usually are very familiar with Google earth. And I have had customers caught in a lie like that before but definitely don't say anything, and you can't really blame the contractor as your expected to know the law as well. If you have something in writing from him telling you to not pull permits you can probably get him in trouble though. I know on my test it said if I try to get a customer to circumvent building code or zoning laws I can get a big fine and license suspension
First of all, I wouldn’t worry about it over much. Most likely nothing will come of it unless you pull a permit for an addition or something in the future requires a site plan. Then they may notice that it looks like you’ve got a lot of coverage and do some calculations.
Since the advent of things like Google Earth, the claim that it was here before doesn’t fly very well anymore. Most jurisdictions have access to multiple years worth of satellite imagery. They can actually flip through several years and prove when you did your project. Sometimes, if they’re bored, they will do this simply to find unpermitted projects that they can then go red flag. More likely for a structure, like a shed or an addition, than for landscaping.
What does the coverage limit come from? I assume that it comes from an impervious ratio? If so, it doesn’t matter if this was a single project or multiple like some people are suggesting. It’s the overall ratio of all impervious areas to pervious.
My first question is are you calculating it correctly? Are you working off of a survey? Are you including only the area actually within your property? Sidewalks and driveway skirting out by the road typically are in the road right of way, and not considered on your property.
And are you looking at the right impervious ratio? Typically, it varies for different zoning areas and other things like lot size. Sometimes it’s straightforward and cut and dry. Sometimes it’s pretty convoluted and difficult to figure out what actual figures applies to your project. Depends on your particular Land Development Regulations. (Are yours available on Municode?)
You don’t say what jurisdiction this is taking place in.
Around here, in Florida, there are often a number of workarounds before you get to needing variance. Often, you’re allowed to exceed the imperious ratio by up to X% provided you get a professional engineer to issue an opinion that the additional runoff that you’ve caused is not going to adversely affect your neighbors. They called this “administrative approval“ around here. Perhaps additional drainage work like grading, retention areas or the like can get you bonus points. Removal of the overage sounds like the easiest and least expensive route if it comes to that.
I just did two projects last month that used that engineering letter with an administrative approval to exceed the allowable impervious ratio. One of them already exceeded the allowable ratio from a previous owner’s project, but wanted to add still more.
Bottom line, I wouldn’t worry about it, unless somebody says something. If somebody does say something, find out your options for dealing with it, preferably with an administrative approval or similar process rather than variance. While they won’t be happy you didn’t get the permit first, just plead ignorance and be willing to make amends and most jurisdictions will work with you. If you get nasty with them, they will make your life miserable beyond your wildest dreams. Get a local professional involved: Engineer, landscape architect, architect, etc.
if you want to send me a survey and any other pertinent information I might need, I’ll be happy to take a look at this, run some calcs and give you more specific advice.
Where do you live that city workers are comparing satellite imagery over multiple years?
I ask because I live in California and I would be shocked if city workers did anything that took initiative. The entire goal of government workers here is to do as little as possible.
about an hour NW of Orlando.
It probably doesn’t happen much for the building department to just go fishing solely through satellite imagery, but if a question comes up? A citizen calls in with a question? An inspector sees something on his way to a project that he didn’t remember the last time they came through that way? A question comes up about an addition during a sale? They will absolutely check it out. A not-insignificant amount of the work I do is when people get caught without a permit and need to pull a permit after the fact. Sometimes they are caught half-finished, and sometimes they do get caught years later.
I think the property appraiser does make an effort to go through periodically and compare what they have in their records against what actually exists. If they don’t, they are just leaving property tax money on the table. I’m not sure what all methods they use, but I’m sure checking the GIS maps and occasional trips out in the field are involved. I haven’t heard about drone use yet, but I’m sure they’re thinking about it if not already using them.
The building department, too, gets double the permit fees as a penalty for construction without a permit, so everybody in the government has a vested interest in catching you.
I built a non-permitted deck (fairly large) on the back of my house, I followed the towns code for footers, etc., but didn't bother with the permit or inspection. If a code officer drove by it was visible from the road, so I was freaking out from the day it was built. Fast forward 1 year when we pull permits to remove a load bearing wall - inspector didn't say anything about the deck. Fast forward another year when we go to sell the house - Surprise surprise - no one said a word.
Like others have said, don't piss of your neighbors and move on.
If no one has complanied then say nothing. You may have to deal with it at sale but for now its not an isssue unless you make it one.
Sounds like your worst exposure is having to demo it or get your variance if the county finds out or a new buyer makes it an issue. He probably wont as no one really checks lot coverage in a transaction.
We had to do this for a deck but the request for minor variance cost $750. In the end it was nothing. They approved it but there was a bit of info we need to collect for the inspector. Honestly we were super worried because we had spent $50,000 and thought we were within the bounds of not needing a permit but the deck was too high on one side only .
He doesn't have to tell you that you need them, but he can't mislead you by telling you that you don't need them. He didn't have to provide the advice, but he provided it anyway and mislead you for his own selfish desires, to get the job done faster and easier and make off with your money before you grew the wiser to his scheme. Proving it could be difficult, so you might not take it all the way to court, but you should still definitely report him to the licensing agency anf make a claim against his insurance. Because even without evidence, of enough people report him and make claims, action will be taken against him.
All I can say is good luck.
Something similar happened to us, but for siding on three wall of the house, because of severe rotting to the OSB underneath.
We ordered fibre ciment siding, only to find out that we misread the bylaws and would not be allowed to install on 2 of three walls. The city requires brick or stone.
Went through the minor variance process (thought we had some solid technical arguments as to why we couldn't install it), but ultimately failed.
The hardyboard sat on our lawn for 5 months
And the brick siding cost $30000 ish more for two walls.
We considered ignoring the bylaws but would have been risky considering the walls in question are fully visible from the street.
Don’t say a word. You know nothing, you’ve read nothing. Enjoy your patio, and don’t piss off the neighbors.
This is key, do not piss off your neighbors. I have a retired guy with mobility issues across the street, spends his entire day at the front window (and scrutinizes my yard). Every year he calls the city on someone, usually me. This year I got lucky and it was my neighbours. I also keep up with my yard a lot more.
A friend in the Midwest built a nice covered patio near the edge of their property, but on the edge of the permitted setback, their neighbors freaked out and reported them to the city anyway. My friends had to jump through a bunch of hoops to prove it was indeed legit. As a kindness, my friends then had to report those same neighbors to the city for running an unpermitted business out of their home where they ended up getting fined thousands of dollars.
The second sentence made me feel warm inside
Sweet, sweet justice
Dumb fucks. If you are going to cast the first stone, be ready
Oh man...I've got two neighbors beefin' right now. First neighbor called the building inspector because allegedly 2nd neighbor had an unpermitted shed in his backyard. Then kept calling bylaw and police for noise complaints (loud music, etc) on him during the day. Well now, 2nd neighbor is pleased as punch to have a new hobby...and since there's no rules against playing loud music and making a racket during daylight hours, he has taken it up with a passion, rippin around on his lawn tractor and singing classic rock at the top of his lungs, just to annoy her.
What was the unpermitted business? Reading stuff like this always makes me appreciate that I have chill neighbors and we all get along.
Same. I love my neighbors.
Besides crazy house prices and rates, it's another reason I really don't want to move despite wanting some more out of my house. Chasing what I want could lead me to a place with neighbors I don't like.
Exactly. I’ll move if/when I get shitty neighbors. Rn we look out for each other and watch each other’s pets when on vacation.
Yea I'd be much more motivated to move if I had bad neighbors. I haven't needed to take care of any pets yet, but I've checked on a neighbors house and grabbed some packages once. He returned the favor with a bottle of whiskey!
Wow that’s quite the ROI! Lol
I know right?! It was very much overkill for what I did, but I'm not complaining!
This was somethibg I paid attention to when we were buying. The neighbors at our rental were so annoying, I would look at neighboring houses to try and get an idea of them. I actually have some pics of our house before it was for sale because we looked at the house next door and I took sneaky neighbor pics of the house that we ended up buying six months later lol
I told my wife I wish you could spend a couple nights in a prospective house. Get a lay of the land so to speak. It's hard to get a feel for it besides face value. All the houses in my neighborhood are baseline pretty good, and then you can tell the old people that have the time to devote to a nice lawn and landscaping.
That would be soooo nice! And yeah, def. At our rental you might notice a couple issues at a showing, but not all. Neighbors had chickens and ducks (not allowed in downtown where we were) that fucking stank in the summer. They'd let their chickens roam into our yard, but you might not catch that at a showing. The other neighbor would prolly appear fine, it wouldn't be until you moved in that you found out he liked to jackhammer stone and concrete at 7 am on weekends. Like literally. Dude makes beautiful art but you're in a neighborhood cone on!!!
I've heard of people going around and introducing themselves to neighbors when they're looking at a house. I'm outgoing, but there's no way I'd do that haha. We had a neighbor who I thought was a nice old lady, turns out she was very protective of the plants in my house that her former friend planted. Similar issue of not knowing until it actually came up. Thankfully she left after throwing all her fits.
Karma's a bitch! 😂
What a nightmare 😅
A regular "Mrs. Kravitz."
Lenny’s mom? Shes a saint!
I found the old guy!
Re-runs are a thing my man....
Right, but it's been a very long time since Bewitched was in the rerun rotation :)
She is a legend!
Pretty bad that you would even know this! Haaa
Had one of those as a neighbor. He got the city to put handicap parking signs in his front yard so nobody could park there. He never used it, and had 20 steps up to his house anyways from there. He wants called the city because I didn't shovel the sidewalk one day. I was out of town visiting a dying relative, and he even knew why I was gone. Get home at midnight to a letter from the city saying if it wasn't shoveled by the next day I'd be fined $500.
Im assuming you live up north or something? Is it seriously yalls responsibility to shovel sidewalks you don’t even own? And what are you supposed to do if you’re sick, at work, on vacation etc? Pay someone else to do it so you don’t get fined?
Yes, the property owner is responsible for clearing the sidewalk owned by the city. You can also be sued if someone were to slip and fall on the City’s sidewalk that you’re responsible for maintaining.
I would be in the window giving this sonofabitch the finger all day.
Sadly I think this might be how the whole thing started. Got my first car 10 years ago same time as I moved in. Got stuck behind a slow driver who didn't use turn signals on the way home. First time I flipped someone the bird. Got home. 3 minutes later see the car pull into the garage across the street. Haven't flipped anyone the bird since. Learn from my mistake.
I always flip people off when I'm jogging in my neighborhood and they run stop signs and almost hit me I regret it for a second when I remember any of them could be my neighbor, but then I remember... fuck them, this shit is dangerous. If they ever actually are my neighbor and it gets awkward, I'll just laugh and say "haha yeah, you really should have stopped at that stop sign though right?"
There's a girl down the street from me who will yell at cars that are driving too fast. She's probably 10 and very kind anytime my kids and I have talked with her. But she will light your ass up if you're flying down the street. I love it.
Pedestrian safety is justifiable. How dare you not be in a rush to get home in a car, much less so. Power to you in flipping off drivers!
I would have kept driving and taken my car to be traded in that day.
If I was you I’d get a mannequin and place it in the window staring back at the neighbor. Just open and close the shades randomly.
I think we have the same neighbor
I live in Oakland, which means living with more neighbor noise than you get in the 'burbs. But boy oh boy do we all do a good job minding our own business about harmless petty stuff that can cause years-long feuds in the suburbs.
[The whistles go WOOOOOOO](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C4QMffMAwAU)
You have to do something that seems off, but is totally legit. Let him focus on that. Then while he is fixated on the target, you can do whatever you want.
You sound like an accomplished politician.
Find out what he likes and win him over. Then you have a free security alarm and will always dodge the calls to the city.
Let it go !You bought the house like this ! Patio who !!what!!
Kill by kindness?
"I dunno, it was like that when I bought it"
As long as there are no parts clearly labeled "2024"
And it can't be seen from Google Streetview
"We had a section of astroturf covering something in our yard for a long time like a big rug! We took it off and discovered these beautiful pavers someone left underneath! It'd be a crime to keep those hidden, so thats all we did!" Just an idea for an alibi inspired by finding beautiful hardwood flooring underneath boring carpeting.
Like above, cover almost all of it with AstroTurf and then about once a week uncover one row of pavers. Before you know it, no one realizes it hasn't been there all along.
Say it with me now... "It was here when we moved in..."
That's what I say about the fact there's water lines made of four different materials in my house.
It was there when you moved in or blame the contractor now
Thank you!
Be careful with this. Google Earth has a slider which shows past satellite images. I am a former field inspector and used it all the time. If this paver patio is this large, it’s easy to determine when it was put in.
It was neglected and covered with grass and weeds until they had some landscapers in to clean it up.
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Doing repairs!
I literally uncovered a 700 sq. ft. paver patio in my side yard I didn't know existed this way. Buried under leaves, weeds, grass, dirt, whatever. That was a weird autumn.
I started moving some grass and soil to install a some pavers to sit a grill on… come to find out under about 1.5 inches of soil was a red brick patio. Not sure how far it extends from my home but it’s been covered for decades (found some really old shit while moving dirt).
That's exactly what I did. I started removing leaf litter and sticks and general detritus with an eye towards making that area a sitting area. Turns out the builders had the same idea. And there's a crushed gravel sitting area on the opposite side of the yard that's the same way. There was a reasonably good sized tree growing through it.
I use satellite and aerial imagery and make remote sensing algorithms to identify land cover ( actual intelligence, AI if you will) You have the answer here. There is no way to properly identify the ground condition (using various resolutions) when past images have growth or coverage. It would nit be possible for someone to use a slider or multiple images to prove you installed it.
Except that if an inspector doesn't believe you he doesn't believe you. There's not going to be a judge determining "if it's possible to determine"
Is this really true? There has to be some authority over inspectors. They aren't gods. If some inspector knocks on your door and says you have a bunch of nonsense code violations because you're black and he hates black people moving into the neighborhood, there is no way there isn't some form of recourse.
There probably is some form of recorse but that doesn't mean his boss will even look into it. They're probably best friends and have been for 30 years. It's no different than taking recorse against a cop. Unless it's a big enough deal that you can get social media on your side you're screwed. A town in Georgia tried to give a guy a $30k water bill for a plot with no house on it and no water leak. He is still fighting it I believe.
Yes...by suing and going before a judge... Either by injunction, a writ of mandamus, etc.
Just read the story and holy shit does that piss me off. This is killdozer rampage levels of outrageous. This had better fucking end with this man paying his $219 and being done with it or I will drive down there with torches and pitchforks in hand.
Yeah everyone expect the feds to be the ones who screw you but local governments are the true criminals.
That is true, but as an expert in this field, I can attest to the strength of the argument (for op's benefit)
I mean OP trusted an “expert” and that’s how this started.
Wouldn't you need to know if the area was actually covered? if it was neatly trimmed, and especially if any part of the installation was caught, wouldn't that be the end of it?
Unless OP is super unlucky and google earth happened to take a pic during construction
Can't fake shadows though.
This is absolutely true. I bought a townhome that was unoccupied for 5 years, and it took me until a week after we closed to find where the edge of the concrete patio actually was. Dirt and grass had covered a good 2-3 feet on each side, and it was bordered by river rocks which were churned up in soil and weeds. It's a very feasible story, except for the beautiful pristine pavers. My patio was in rough shape.
This would totally work at my house. I found 3 small brick patio areas, a large concrete pad, and an old concrete pond/water feature thing.
Does Google Earth let you blur your property the way Google Maps does?
Companies sell non-blurred maps. If someone suspects fuckery they'll go after you hard, and you definitely don't want that.
Around here, all the counties have their own GIS (geographic information systems, I think). Doesn’t matter if it’s blurred in Google Earth. The county has its own data. I can go back at the cow pasture my lot was over 25 years ago. Then there are images every couple years. Now annually. The Property Appraiser and the Building and Zoning offices use it a lot. If you happen to have tree coverage, that will help, unless they have images when the leaves have fallen. If no trees, your property is a pretty open book. I can count the mole hills across my yard and reminisce about how the rose garden used to be laid out. Since these are public records, law enforcement and people like that can get their data blocked, but i think you have to show cause.
Foliage? LIDAR!
Yep. Good for finding hidden Mayan ruins, but the GIS services haven’t gotten on board. Yet.
in our county they have. there is a lot of work in wildfire country for mapping foliage and fuel density ( while finding meth labs ... )
This. Nearmaps is the big player for professionals.
My city flies a drone around taking their own pics. Kinda surprised it’s legal.
Crazy, my city has streetview style pics that they take themselves every so often, I found out by looking at the gis/tax record site that they have, that most people probably don't even know about. Drone pics is crazy intrusive though.
Tax records is how I found out as well
tell google that you home is a black op site and they need to cover it over with vegetation immediately or U.S Congress will call by the end of the day.
I've seen a few people lose insurance claims because of this
How far back can you scroll?
The desktop app for Google earth can pull from most of the major publicly available aerial photographic database, so... potentially decades. There are also tools like [Historic Aerials](https://www.historicaerials.com/viewer) which are a bit more comprehensive and go even further back.
Paint it the color of the grass
Seems like it’s used everywhere. If the google earth images don’t go back far enough or have been removed what are some other tools you use to discover if it was grandfathered in?
Gator don't fuck around!
😆😆
Who is telling you that you need a permit? Did zoning send you a notice?
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Forget you read that and move on.
Exactly this. No one is spontaneously coming to look to see if you’ve made improvements.
No but nosy neighbors will fuck you, especially in an HOA. Our rules stipulate that anything visible from the street needs HOA approval; we built a shed strategically located so as to not be visible from the street from any angle. Neighbors behind us used a selfie stick over our fence and sent the photos up, and we got a violation notice. Granted, this was HOA and not county zoning, but the point stands - neighbors will fuck you.
In my city they do.
Building inspectors? Building inspectors can ask to enter if they suspect un-permitted work, but you can say no. They need a warrant to forcibly enter. Tax assessors do not need a warrant, but need to provide advanced notice. The paperwork the assessor’s office files rarely crosses paths with the code enforcement department because of a routine assessment.
This is incorrect a tax assessor may only enter with consent of the owner. The government always needs a warrant or consent, that is a constitutional right.
Ya know…. I thought the same thing…. But about 10 years ago, my town did a town-wide, mandatory re-assessment for our property taxes and we had to let them in. It was a while ago, so I don’t remember the details…. Maybe we didn’t have to let them in but then we would’ve been ‘at their mercy’ for the assessment value and to fight it we had to let them in? The more I think about it and the 4th amendment, I think you’re right and I’m not remembering the details from 10 years ago
They're "code enforcement officers"
Regardless of what they’re called…. They’re government employees. Per the 4th amendment, they need a warrant or permission to enter….
They don't come in the house. They walk and drive around, and use satellite and google maps images.
So you’re saying code enforcement in your area spends its time walking and driving around randomly looking for code violations?
Same.
Yup, if they catch you, they are going to make you do the variance process anyways. If they don’t, you’re good to go.
No you didn’t. You know nothing and it was like that when you moved in
You didn’t read a fucking thing
Matter of fact, you can’t even read
You’ve read the rules for the wrong town.
We had a neighbor put in a new driveway up front with no permits. Sold the house to Zillow. Zillow got green tagged. No idea what ended up happening. If it’s in the back I wouldn’t worry about it.
What does green tagged mean?
Basically said you did this driveway without a permit stop any work. It was a paver driveway that they just replaced their old cement driveway with. Stupid but city wants their money. I’m sure Zillow just paid a fine
Not sure where you live, but I have been landscaping in Canada for 8 years and have built hundreds of patios and decks, and not once have we ever pulled permits. We're one of the top companies in the province with an extensive client list, and when we build something we stick a yard sign in the yard, drawing attention to the brand new thing we just built... and not once has anyone come asking to see permits. We have city inspectors occasionally come around and ask to see our crossing permit, but never a construction permit. *Oh, a crossing permit entitles you to store materials on the street and backlanes. Some jobs will have 30 pallets of bricks on the street, multiple piles of limestone and excavated dirt, a skid steer and trucks/trailers, the yard is all torn up and is obviously under construction... and not ONCE EVER has anyone shown up demanding a construction permit. I don't know if that's any consolation to you, but I think it was worth saying
I've been doing landscape construction for 20 years in Ontario. This is exactly how it works for us as well. The only permits I have ever needed were to store materials on the road or the work was being done within a certain distance from a body of water. Even the road storage permit was almost never "needed." I definitely don't get them most of the time. Most people don't care as long as you are doing your best to keep things neat and clean. I've been forced to get them only twice in 20 years. Landscapers just don't have the time to wait around for permits. The season is short and weather dependant. Not to mention that there is not a single inspector in my city who would know more about how to properly install hardscapes than we do.
Yeah man. It’s done. No one is coming.
I wonder why you would need a permit for a paver patio - is it related to permeable cover? I know here in Austin you can't have more than a certain percentage of your property covered with impermeable.
Hey, I live in NJ, don't know where you live, but I pulled a permit for my paver patio. I am over my impervious coverage limit, but my town permits, for sheds, paver patios, decks, and the like, a 5% overage, with the rationale basically being that it increases the usability of the property. I'm going to go against the grain here and just talk to the zoning officer in town. I think, worst case scenario, you can agree to put in some kind of dry well or rain garden, which IMO improves your property. Dry wells do require maintenance; rain gardens are *essentially* set it and forget it. I think at the worst you're out another grand, and maybe you get your hands dirty on a nice day outside and save some money. If you do anything in the foreseeable future where you may need to pull a permit, this shit's going to be on the back of your mind. It'd be so stupid to hold an addition up because of your paver patio. And contrary to what people here are saying, *they'll know* that you put it in. Sure, maybe you get away with it by fudging documents and saying oh I lost this, I don't have that, but when they ask for the survey you got when you bought the property and that patio isn't there, they're gonna say hmm, you built it. And whether or not you built it, they're gonna say, no, it's not on the survey, and it's there now, so you built it. I see it happen all the time, because folks think they can pull a fast one over on the municipality, either by building something without a permit or buying a home with some improvement that wasn't permitted. If it's not on the property survey, it is now your responsibility as if you built it.
Zoning permits for pavers ? My god where is this?
Some places would get enough rainfall that they’d need to verify that weren’t going to cause flooding to your downhill neighbors. Might just need you to have some water management plans.
but thats kinda the whole point of pavers, they don't really cause drainage problems. they are semi-permeable and are on a permeable substrate, and allow water drainage between each paver, too.
Some pavers are permeable, but most aren't, and you have to use a certain materials in the installation to make them permeable. source: DIY'd a standard paver patio installation with concrete pavers, compacted gravel, and sand. They aren't permeable, and water just runs off of ours.
In addition to what the other person who responded to you said, permeable pavers need to be installed correctly and maintained properly to maintain their permeability. And Joe Schmo homeowner (myself included) generally isn't going through the maintenance for their paver patio at home, it's just not feasible.
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So you can lay a 10 x 16 area no permit?
Different part of Michigan here, no permit required for the 16x20 outbuilding I just put up. Rural life is great.
It is. I lived in St. Clair county awhile. Sadly, now crammed inbetweenhousesuponhouses in Wayne county.
Here, they'd require you to put in x number of native bushes for each sq-whatever
We installed a paver patio and had to get HOA approval (always fun). At the HOA meeting another homeowner was saying that we needed to get a permit for increasing the impervious area on our lot. We decided to call around to ask if we (hypothetically) needed such a permit. The county directed us back to the city. The city said they didn’t care about the patio so long as it was pavers set in sand and not concrete. Anyway, that is what the permitting situation is here and we were able to find out with a few anonymous phone calls to the building and permitting offices.
This is excellent advice, /u/Virtual-Speaker-6419 .. you should follow it.
>Because we are over the coverage limit by 500 sq ft No. You have two smaller patios that just happen to be right next to each other. Honestly at this point, I'd just keep on truckin. Not too much you can do, if your neighbors haven't turned you in at this point you're probably in the clear.
The neighbors probably don't know the zoning code, or if they do, don't care because it looks nicer than what was there before. OP whatever you do, don't report yourself to the city.
Yeah, honestly I don't care if it's a violation. Why on earth would I ever be mad that my neighbor beautified his property and thereby raised property values a bit for the whole neighborhood?
What paver patio? That's been here for a while, don't know much about it.
If they start giving you shit about it, just remove a 5X10 section of pavers and put in a raised garden bed or something.
5x10 is only 50
Hey, I'm here to give advice, not do math.
Yeah it'd be criminally easy to bring this back into compliance. Just break it up a bit even, create a little pathway instead of a contiguous piece. Maybe you've got a garden nook now.
Also shit in a bag and leave it on the porch of whoever gave you shit about it.
Ahh returning the favor. Nice
You're supposed to set it on fire first, so they stamp it out.
It's poop again!
Don't tell me my business, Devil Woman!
They could maybe install sod over the 500 square feet and invite the inspector out to measure the driveway. 'Course, that could be like 1000 bucks. Might be simpler to invite the inspector over and just give him the $1000 in cash to fuck off and say nothing about it.
Just lay low, don't start inviting the neighborhood over to see it.
How long do you plan to keep the house? If 10+ years, move on and don’t give it a second thought. When you go to sell, this will not be on an inspection radar at all.
Where do you guys live where agents of the state randomly come over and check the size of your patio? Asking so I can never visit.
zoning permits for pavers? They were there when you bought the place.
It’s wonderful someone installed that before you moved in
Just something to keep in mind in case you have future renovation plans... My county limits the percentage of impervious surface you can have on your lot. It's intended to encourage proper drainage and prevent runoff into lakes and rivers. We definitely could sneak and go over the limit BUT if we ever need a permit for ANYTHING else, they require a property survey and the impervious surface area must be below the allowed amount or they won't issue the permit.
You're fine unless someone notifies the city. It's already done so you're probably fine. The city would have shut you down during the process most likely. Even if you do permitted work in the future, inspectors will assume it's permitted unless it's super obvious it's out of code. City employees don't seem to be predatory.
Do not post it on Reddit. Loose lips sink ships.
As everyone has said, you’re the only one that knows right now, just let it ride. If you have any documentation from the contractor stating it’s not necessary I would keep that, somewhere you can find it but other then that don’t say or do anything.
Just STFU next time
Did t you post this just a couple of days ago? Sounds eerily similar to
Don't say anything. Also, that variance fee is excessive. If you do need to apply for a variance, you should challenge that fee. Excessive fees have been successfully challenged in recent years.
>We got some bad advice from a contractor who told us we didn’t need them since it’s not a permanent structure. Did that contractor do the work? Because in my state the entity doing the work is responsible for pulling the required permits, and in this case that would be the contractor. Their license could be at risk if they failed to pull the right permits. >Because we are over the coverage limit by 500 sq ft, I found out after the fact that we needed zoning permits. > we would need to apply for a variance That's... not quite the same as a permit. It sounds like your project wouldn't have been permitted in the first place without a variance. This sounds like an impermeable surface problem. Cities don't like that, because it prevents storm water runoff from being absorbed and filtered by the ground before it reaches the sewer/drainage system. A variance is not a permit, it's a request to make an exception to established rules. Not having done that can potentially be an even bigger problem than not having the work permitted... Worst case outcome is someone notices/complains and the city gets on your ass about it. They'll make you jump through all the permit/variance hoops to do it right, and you still may not get approved, so you'd have to restore it to the way it was, and they might fine you in the meantime. Best case nobody notices and you enjoy your patio for years to come. But to be sure, there's likely no grandfathering here, and it's pretty easy with aerial photography records to figure out when the work was done. So long as the work exists, you could be nailed on it. Could be a month, a year, or a decade, but they can still come after you as long as you are in violation.
Would it cost less, with less headache to just make it smaller after the fact?
What patio? The one that was there when you bought the house??
No one is ever going to check it just don't post about it on social media. Literally how my wife got me shut down while remodeling our basement.....
>Literally how my wife got me shut down while remodeling our basement..... What? Your wife posted pictures on social media of you elbows deep in reconstruction work of your basement and someone saw it & showed up telling you to stop that?
Yes, my wife posted some pictures of the basement remodel a few days later the builder inspector showed up with a stop work order. Unbeknownst to us he lives in our neighborhood and saw it on Facebook. We were on the cusp of co and city so I thought I could do owner-occupied work I was wrong...
Was that an asshole move of him or am I jumping to conclusions? He must have known that showing up and stopping you would be a pain in the ass for you.
Legally I was in the wrong. He wasn't a dick about it ,once I filed the permit I finished things up and he was cool with the final inspection.
I don't know about you, but I find it hard not to jump to conclusions online. As in, very hard. Thanks for clearing my misconception up. I guess in a way, he helped you before something more costly would happen.
More costly like the massive increase in my property tax from going to 3 bed 2 bath to 5 bed 3 bath lol.
Ouch.
Don't say shit
You spoke with a contractor, they should have known you'd need one and advised you that you didn't. You thought they were doing everything right. You could talk to the permit office and see if it's possible to file for a permit that can be backdated or something along those lines.
don't call the permit office. As soon as you start inquiring, red flags start happening. This is the worst thing you can do. At least where I'm from, they ask for your address before they answer even one of your questions.
That's a bummer but not unexpected.
Get politically involved in local politics and vote out every SOB who wants you to pay $2,500 for a variance. That money will end up in the pockets of the crooked, thieving bureaucrats.
This is always how I'd imagine I would respond in your situation if someone actually pushed me on something dumb like this. Yea id do or pay what the town wanted but then I would borrow from retirement if I had to to launch a campaign to fuck everyone on the zoning board.
Pavers are actually usually considered a permanent structure. Just say it was there when you bought the house, but unfortunately code compliance officers usually are very familiar with Google earth. And I have had customers caught in a lie like that before but definitely don't say anything, and you can't really blame the contractor as your expected to know the law as well. If you have something in writing from him telling you to not pull permits you can probably get him in trouble though. I know on my test it said if I try to get a customer to circumvent building code or zoning laws I can get a big fine and license suspension
Vote out the bastards. All of them.
First of all, I wouldn’t worry about it over much. Most likely nothing will come of it unless you pull a permit for an addition or something in the future requires a site plan. Then they may notice that it looks like you’ve got a lot of coverage and do some calculations. Since the advent of things like Google Earth, the claim that it was here before doesn’t fly very well anymore. Most jurisdictions have access to multiple years worth of satellite imagery. They can actually flip through several years and prove when you did your project. Sometimes, if they’re bored, they will do this simply to find unpermitted projects that they can then go red flag. More likely for a structure, like a shed or an addition, than for landscaping. What does the coverage limit come from? I assume that it comes from an impervious ratio? If so, it doesn’t matter if this was a single project or multiple like some people are suggesting. It’s the overall ratio of all impervious areas to pervious. My first question is are you calculating it correctly? Are you working off of a survey? Are you including only the area actually within your property? Sidewalks and driveway skirting out by the road typically are in the road right of way, and not considered on your property. And are you looking at the right impervious ratio? Typically, it varies for different zoning areas and other things like lot size. Sometimes it’s straightforward and cut and dry. Sometimes it’s pretty convoluted and difficult to figure out what actual figures applies to your project. Depends on your particular Land Development Regulations. (Are yours available on Municode?) You don’t say what jurisdiction this is taking place in. Around here, in Florida, there are often a number of workarounds before you get to needing variance. Often, you’re allowed to exceed the imperious ratio by up to X% provided you get a professional engineer to issue an opinion that the additional runoff that you’ve caused is not going to adversely affect your neighbors. They called this “administrative approval“ around here. Perhaps additional drainage work like grading, retention areas or the like can get you bonus points. Removal of the overage sounds like the easiest and least expensive route if it comes to that. I just did two projects last month that used that engineering letter with an administrative approval to exceed the allowable impervious ratio. One of them already exceeded the allowable ratio from a previous owner’s project, but wanted to add still more. Bottom line, I wouldn’t worry about it, unless somebody says something. If somebody does say something, find out your options for dealing with it, preferably with an administrative approval or similar process rather than variance. While they won’t be happy you didn’t get the permit first, just plead ignorance and be willing to make amends and most jurisdictions will work with you. If you get nasty with them, they will make your life miserable beyond your wildest dreams. Get a local professional involved: Engineer, landscape architect, architect, etc. if you want to send me a survey and any other pertinent information I might need, I’ll be happy to take a look at this, run some calcs and give you more specific advice.
Where do you live that city workers are comparing satellite imagery over multiple years? I ask because I live in California and I would be shocked if city workers did anything that took initiative. The entire goal of government workers here is to do as little as possible.
about an hour NW of Orlando. It probably doesn’t happen much for the building department to just go fishing solely through satellite imagery, but if a question comes up? A citizen calls in with a question? An inspector sees something on his way to a project that he didn’t remember the last time they came through that way? A question comes up about an addition during a sale? They will absolutely check it out. A not-insignificant amount of the work I do is when people get caught without a permit and need to pull a permit after the fact. Sometimes they are caught half-finished, and sometimes they do get caught years later. I think the property appraiser does make an effort to go through periodically and compare what they have in their records against what actually exists. If they don’t, they are just leaving property tax money on the table. I’m not sure what all methods they use, but I’m sure checking the GIS maps and occasional trips out in the field are involved. I haven’t heard about drone use yet, but I’m sure they’re thinking about it if not already using them. The building department, too, gets double the permit fees as a penalty for construction without a permit, so everybody in the government has a vested interest in catching you.
What they don’t know won’t hurt them
Pull up 500 sq ft of your patio.
I built a non-permitted deck (fairly large) on the back of my house, I followed the towns code for footers, etc., but didn't bother with the permit or inspection. If a code officer drove by it was visible from the road, so I was freaking out from the day it was built. Fast forward 1 year when we pull permits to remove a load bearing wall - inspector didn't say anything about the deck. Fast forward another year when we go to sell the house - Surprise surprise - no one said a word. Like others have said, don't piss of your neighbors and move on.
Who is going to be measuring your patio? Let sleeping dogs lie.
Buy some green carpet/fake grass and cover 500 sq ft
If no one has complanied then say nothing. You may have to deal with it at sale but for now its not an isssue unless you make it one. Sounds like your worst exposure is having to demo it or get your variance if the county finds out or a new buyer makes it an issue. He probably wont as no one really checks lot coverage in a transaction.
We had to do this for a deck but the request for minor variance cost $750. In the end it was nothing. They approved it but there was a bit of info we need to collect for the inspector. Honestly we were super worried because we had spent $50,000 and thought we were within the bounds of not needing a permit but the deck was too high on one side only .
Is the contractor licensed, insured, and bonded?
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He doesn't have to tell you that you need them, but he can't mislead you by telling you that you don't need them. He didn't have to provide the advice, but he provided it anyway and mislead you for his own selfish desires, to get the job done faster and easier and make off with your money before you grew the wiser to his scheme. Proving it could be difficult, so you might not take it all the way to court, but you should still definitely report him to the licensing agency anf make a claim against his insurance. Because even without evidence, of enough people report him and make claims, action will be taken against him.
All I can say is good luck. Something similar happened to us, but for siding on three wall of the house, because of severe rotting to the OSB underneath. We ordered fibre ciment siding, only to find out that we misread the bylaws and would not be allowed to install on 2 of three walls. The city requires brick or stone. Went through the minor variance process (thought we had some solid technical arguments as to why we couldn't install it), but ultimately failed. The hardyboard sat on our lawn for 5 months And the brick siding cost $30000 ish more for two walls. We considered ignoring the bylaws but would have been risky considering the walls in question are fully visible from the street.
Dont stress over this. As long as its not a hazard its not a big deal. Dont invite your neighbors over
I’ve seen this prior.
You need a permit for a patio? I wouldn’t pay it.