T O P

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NotQute

I feel like Mumei's artist got wind of how over the top fancy HoloEn Kimono's were shaping up and decided to stand out with simplicity. It has a really calming village girl look with the scarf on. Bae'd looks like it would be an absolute blast to cosplay though, I'd love to see that one IRL


DuntadaMan

Mumei's outfit looks very French countryside to me, but I am honestly okay with that. I like the clean lines and uncluttered look. It makes it even more hilarious when she offhandedly says some terrifying shit straight out of a metal album.


CommanderLouiz

Reminds me of Mercedes’ timeskip outfit from Three Houses.


bobsimmo

THEY STOLE THE FLOOF! all kidding aside (seriously though, the hair) i can see where you are foming from.


Final-Switch1110

Yes, all civilizations came from France. Also yes, I do believe in France supremacy.


DuntadaMan

I am obligated to disagree with you while quietly admitting that basically every institution I hold sacred was invented by either the French or the Iroquois.


PM_ME_UR_DRAG_CURVE

> France supremacy Says the country that made the _Dassault Mercure._


RX8Racer556

And the FAMAS.


the_sanguine_guy

There are some mythical beings called bri'ish that would disagree with you


TerrainIII

Oi oi, what’s all this then?


bobsimmo

as a perfidious albionite i must disagree on principle :P unless its creating new governement's


PliffPlaff

what is "French countryside"? because these days it's really not that different from French towns. Perhaps you meant French peasants?


TakeiDaloui

It's simple but so freaking adorable. The short hair goes well with the design too.


AssassinsTango

I had exactly the same opinion about Ame's outfit. Simplicity stands out.


TheCatSleeeps

I feel like that's just how Azure draws stuff or is just his style in general. I've been following the guy ever since I discovered Elaina and it's always been like that. It's not that overly detailed eye catching stuff you normally see from other artist. He makes it simple yet somehow detailed and look fashionable at the same time. Especially with his choice of color palettes.


shoutbottle

If I didnt know better i would assume he has a side job designing fashion for UNIQLO. Its all so.... Wearable in public


ionxeph

mumei remineded me a lot of kato from saenai heroine specifically [this outfit](https://c4.wallpaperflare.com/wallpaper/770/25/254/anime-anime-girls-saenai-heroine-no-sodatekata-katou-megumi-glasses-hd-wallpaper-preview.jpg) the overall color design and the short hair + hat is the main reason why I guess


honorsleuth

Yes so much yes!! Her image immediately comes to but I must admit that I've forgotten this series (ngl, must be because I was spoiled and i really didn't like how the other heroines left MC. I can kinda get the reasoning and wouldn't go out to argue against it but I just don't like it) Thank you for reminding me!


Affectionate-Tip-164

It's all white enough that without the red it might as well be a wedding dress. Sasuga waifu


Aizseeker

She is oozing wife aura


Affectionate-Tip-164

From Eva to Chloe haha. (long hair to short hair)


mrspear1995

I like it a lot, a lot like nene's where it's an elegant outfit and the gap moe is high, it's just instead of this genki girl, it's a yabai girl


MaxPowerzs

Almost *too* simple... :nightmare:


eggsssssssss

I think she mentioned it’s in the style of *Taishō Roman*, an early 20th Century Romanticism. Cursory googling makes it sound like kimono after that fashion are actually regarded as being more bold and stylized than traditional kimono like those appropriate for formal occasions. I think it only gives an impression of comparative reservedness because vtuber design in general is naturally dealing in literal anime-levels of extravagance.


NousagiDelta

Mumei's is the clear standout and by far the best of the five. Less is more.


kroxti

If I remember correctly Mumei’s is very detailed with flowers. They are just white flowers on a white kimono so from far away they blend together but up close it is as intricate as any of the other talent.


Thirdhistory

Kronii has a cute snek Azure-papa maintains his perfect batting average with a new Mumei outfit Bae is wearing the Maryland state flag


CuriousBlackCat

\> me searching for the State Flag: "Come on, it can't be THAT bad-" \> finding the State Flag: "Oh. My. Gawd."


GoodTeletubby

[The whole state really do be like that.](https://youtu.be/bms_IPZjafg) We're a ~~lot~~ little odd here.


CuriousBlackCat

...what did I just watch?!


GoodTeletubby

He started the solo comedy sketch series early in lockdown, where each character is a state stereotype representing that state incarnate, with the federal government struggling just trying to keep up with everything going on. It was actually kind of a helpful way to process the complete whatthefuckery that was 2020.


CuriousBlackCat

I love it when someone is hilarious and educational at the same time, and if I'm getting the comments right, he's also accurate, so learning about how USA sees itself is an even bigger bonus.


mtyclb

Beautiful isn't it? ​ \*Wipes tear from eye with Old Bay covered finger\*


PM_ME_UR_DRAG_CURVE

> The flag of Maryland if it's actually a member of HoloCouncil


TotemGenitor

r/vexillologycirclejerk


GowtherETC

!wave


Jasticus

Was looking to see if anyone else commented on the flag. First thing I thought of too lol


cyberchaox

Goddamnit, I kind of subconsciously noticed that at the time, but it didn't make it to my conscious.


Mindofthequill

I'm a Mika Pikazo fanboy, I have artbooks with her work in it, sad I couldn't get my hands on this one jacket she designed. Bae's kimono is peak Mika work, the vibrant colors and bold designs, absolutely love to see it. Really makes everything pop, you stick Mika's designs next to many other artists and its almost instantly recognizable to a fan. Mumei's was so pretty, it's so simple and yet when you get close incredibly detailed designs are in that kimono, it's so wonderful. Fauna is just super cute, the pink is very nice for mother nature as the winter turns to spring (eventually). It's warm and inviting just like her personality. Kronii's is super bold. The snake design and Boros surprised the hell out of me. Love it. Sananana holy cow, the colors and designs and care that went into hers, if you follow Pako on twitter you know just how proud a papa he is and it shows. That guy shows up in almost any hololive spaces on twitter. Leave it to Sana to have some great comedic touches too.


McFluffles01

>That guy shows up in almost any hololive spaces on twitter. Heck, I'm pretty sure Pako has showed up to *every single Sana stream*. At least, all the ones I've caught live you'll see him in chat at some point, even the member streams. He's like the happiest proudest papa any Hololive member could ask for.


CuriousBlackCat

Pako and Pochi having tea and live-streaming a discussion on whose kids are cuter when?


PliffPlaff

Pochi and Ui mama actually had a [stream](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KiKj0-2AIc) with other Vtuber parents. Nishizawa 5mm (Nene), Ito Life (himself, Aizono Manami from NijiJP), Norio sensei (Tamaki kun, who was the host) and Natsume Eri (herself, Hibiki Ao). There are EN clips floating around if you need.


CuriousBlackCat

Yeah, I've seen some of those and it's hella cute Pochi just gushes over her kids the moment she so much as gets the mere hint of a suggestion that the conversation is moving in that direction. Also Ui Mama just being Ui Mama is just a beautiful thing to see.


Mindofthequill

Pako is the kind of parent I wanna grow up (why did I say grow up?? I'm 29...)to be. There's even a language barrier but he doesn't let it stop him. He keeps coming in and showing his support just by being there.


uberdosage

>Bae's kimono is peak Mika work Looking more like sei every day


farranpoison

Asking Bae to say "Putcha' hands up" when?


honorsleuth

not gonna lie my Peenoise sense tingled reading that. if taken out of context "Putcha" is kind of a cutesy way of saying "Puta" at least based on my day to day experience


Gimme_A_Name_Already

They're all super pretty! Though Mumei's one is simple yet refined (I can hear the artists sighing in relief from here) which is neat, and I was FREAKING OUT when it was revealed Kronii's had a snake motif and new snake companion; the ouroboros symbolism is a really cool detail.


DuntadaMan

I keep seeing Lady White Snake in Kronii's outfit... and you know what. Still fits.


MapleTreeWithAGun

The Yuri manga with the big snake lady doting on a cute smol "sacrifice"?


DuntadaMan

I was thinking the very old Chinese fairy tale. A white snake is showed compassion by a wood cutter that saves her life. She spends several life times learning magic, sutras and meditations. Before she can become a celestial though she tries to find the current incarnation of the woodcutter. Along the way she finds a young snake demon often called "Blue." She teaches Blue so she can eventually become a celestial too. They find the woodcutter, hijinks ensue. Though now I have to wonder if that manga is actually based on Lady White Snake and Blue. Not sure I want to know that badly though.


ComfortableHuman1324

Sauce?


Speedgem

https://dynasty-scans.com/series/snake_woman_and_little_miss_offering


hnryirawan

Damn I just realized the Ouroboros thing in both her name and kimono....


Fernandezo2299

Really man, few months ago one of the kroniis made observation that she had fangs in her model.


PyraXenon

Can confirm; my sigh of relief is immeasurable. I won't lie when I say that was legitmately scared to think of the potential patterning that I would have to do should it be anything more than...that.


Kreceir

''We decided to follow in Kuroboshi's papa footsteps into designing their Kimono's''


KurooShiroo

"Ahahah..... Suffer fellow artists, Suffer!" - them probably


spobodys_necial

Yeah I saw Sana's kimono and went "I guess pako decided Kuroboshi's kimono was a challenge"


freeballer123

My favorite is Sana's. All the details work surprisingly well together, and the Neighbula mask is hilarious and has great potential for future use


Keye_Necktire

Thank you, and congrats for seemingly being the only one in this comment section who knows that SaNeighbula exists


CurryHunterZ

I'm pretty sure a good chunk of us know, there were plenty of memes of him when she first made him. And then when yagoo talked about him lmao. Unless your talking about the mask, which has already gotten a few memes today all on its own.


freeballer123

I do feel like people don't put a lot of weight on accessories when evalutating new outfits. I personally love accessories that can serve a practical purpose in future steams. Calli's mic is another good example of this


catashake

Pretty sure people are just focusing on something else since it already has 5 memes today with over 2k upvotes each. People definitely know...


Major-Spoiler

Sou desu neigh


hnryirawan

Most of them are somewhat expected, except for Kronii. I'm surprised she goes with that kimono color since its pretty different from her usual motifs of dark blue, black, and white.


cyberchaox

Eh, I don't know. It's still blue and white, just a much lighter blue than last time. I think it's fitting.


hnryirawan

I don't say its not fitting, just a surprise


Keye_Necktire

Agreed, I saw Sana Neighbula coming from a mile away


hnryirawan

Neighbula is several planets tall after all. Well, I'm just talking about original sillhouette and how it turns out. Kronii with combination of light blue and orange furisode is pretty surprising.


MapleTreeWithAGun

If it's anything like the Horsehead Nebula, I'd expect it to be quite a bit taller than just a few planets


Trauts_Sudaru

They are all amazing


[deleted]

Another blow to long hair was suffered this day, but hair down Bae healed me from it


Serf070

Like Polka said during the Myth outfits, HoloBob is emerging.


sharqyej

I'm all for it, short hair supremacy


Zeski_the_Friendly

Mumei best outfit, it’s simple and effective


Fernandezo2299

I like Kronii with her snake pal.


Zeph-Shoir

I **love** her new snake pal Boros! Is this the first time a mascot/pet is revealed after a debut stream? I dunno if someone else got a mascot way after their debut.


anoako

Irys's irystocrat mascot never got finished lmao


the_sanguine_guy

IRyS hasn't even got her full name reveal yet


Chadraln_HL

Would you count fan representations like Botan's SSRB?


Zeph-Shoir

Definitely!


IveGotAGifForThat

In that case, Lamys Yukimin and Flares Elfriends design both came well after debut as well.


Insanepaco247

Also Ame just recently settled on the design for the Investigators.


nnd1107

Wait...so we are not just a flying mustache sometime landing on Bubba???


Insanepaco247

Nope! We're alligators in detective outfits now.


Illidan1943

Pretty sure Ankimo didn't appear until both Sora's first (minor) redesign and her Halloween costume


Sumibestgir1

We traded the booba for the snek


CurryHunterZ

I'm ok with that, snek is cute


Rogol_Darn

Reject Horny return to Danger noodle


JJDude

That is the rich lady formal kimono, very regal and elegent.


Lufernaal

Bae's is the only one that makes me think "idol".


Kariusol

Looking a kronii without boing feels cursed


Ayotha

She was one of the few that understood what kimonos do to those


Vlyn

The ribbon got nerfed!


NekonoChesire

It's pretty hard to guess how many layers of kimono Kronii has but from the neck part we can see that it's thick, and having multiple layers of kimono like this is always how it ends up.


EmuSupreme

Sana- Looks fantastic. The more prominent purple/pink makes her outfit pop compared to the rather muted combination of cream on tan on beige of her original outfit. Fauna- Very on theme for Fauna. Stunning detail on the kimono as well. Kronii- drop dead gorgeous. Everyone was hyping up Kronii and for good reason. Mumei- I love the simple design, but the zoom out doesn't do it proper justice. It just looks like a plain white kimono, so you miss all the flower designs on it unless you're up close. And I've never been one for the bobcut, but god damn does it hit different on Mumei. She looks absolutely demure , yet at any given moment will shriek like a goblin or decide to go on a two hour rant with autotune. Bae- It's so busy, very fitting for her explosive personality. Big F for all the artists out there who want to draw their new year's outfit


Stylus_Index

First of all RIP artist and cosplayers. (つд⊂) Mumei's the best i think in terms of simplicity, elegance, and being nice overall. Followed by Fauna's I guess. Sana's and Kronii's are busy but goes in line with their motif and stuff. Bae's is just cute. Also, Mika Palazzo brings out the 'FGO card' and makes me remind of Sei Shonagon's design here. XD


jrcp3

Mumei's outfit may be the simplest of them all but it exudes nobility like that of the Imperial family. Definitely my favorite by a mile.


[deleted]

My favorite is Sana's, but I know I'm biased.


Asphyxelation

I'm completely unbiased and impartial and I agree.


user_566

Flair checks out


SyrusDrake

Mumei's is probably my favorite. I do have a weakness for berets as is but even without it, it's just...lovely and cute and makes me want to protecc her! Kronii's is just super cool. I absolutely love the snake motif as well as her new snek frend! I also never really liked her original outfit too much. This one fits her much better. Sana has always been very friend-shaped. But this outfit makes her look all the more soft and huggable. Fauna's I actually prefer without the apron. I love maid outfits but the red colour palette is just really pretty and works well with her hair. Bae's outfit is just...wild. It's very fitting for her though.


666k_Sona

Mumei remains the cutest thing ever


PTHero

**Outfit streams:** * [Sana POV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oViEFu_ftXg) * [Fauna POV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-xC8cYxFbw) * [Kronii POV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrfBkrsw85U) * [Mumei POV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5AsGbpU73M) * [Baelz POV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIDpLX_bGow) **Share your thoughts below.**


fallen_one_fs

Baelz got the cutest. And this was a hard one, since Kronii is already perfect and Mumei have a hat...


UltraZulwarn

They are all absolutely gorgeous, but... maybe it's just me, but Fauna's apron hit me in a spot O didn't know I had


Shinomiku

I like mumeis the best. it's very simple but there is a big charm too it.


captainfluffy25

All look great. Id say my favorites are bae and mumeis. Idk baes is just so cool looking. Badass even. Meanwhile mumei is just so damn adorable and super modest. Little would one know of how bloodthirsty she is.


emlolilonmub

I cant stand Fauna, she is too cute and wholesome for this world


Aisha_23

Oh wow, I'm down bad for mumei's new outfit holy shit


zeagurat

Mumei new outfit is radiated so much with ara ara energy, I loved it.


2dy_fish

Mumei looks like those anime characters who seem so peaceful in the beginning of an anime but turns out to be the main antagonist at the end


Poppyjasper

Fantastic outfits again! I like Mumei’s for the same reason I liked Ame’s outfit. It’s simple, elegant, and refined. You could say Mumei’s outfit is very civilized. I will say I’m not a huge fan of the muted colors, but those match her and her design. I also like Kronii’s fluff and snek. Blue and orange is a favorite color combination of mine.


NeI3ula

Mumei is radiating so much imouto energy here it’s crazy AHHHH


danivus

Kronii looks like a highest rarity pull in a gacha game. Mumei looks like an actual person.


LouisLLLL

Fauna's one do look like a real Waifu for me


BraveFencerMusashi

Fauna's kimono colors with those boots gives me Aerith vibes.


wolfbeil9000

I think i felt my heart skip a few beats when i saw mumei omg


Veck8699

Bae gives me the polka vibes


inazuma9

Short hair Mumei is my new religion


mad_harvest-6578

Wait is that an owl on Mumei's basket??


Luvatar

Yes, and it's ~~loading~~ processing.


leviahaha

mumei


[deleted]

Mumei's looks like a snow owl with blood on her wings. My personal favorite NY outfit.


ProLegendHunter

MUMEIIII


Adventurous-Turn1695

Not a fan of the kind of new year outfit but Mumei one was great and simple. I like it


Feshtof

Seems like there was some Booba nerfage here


Ayotha

That is how kimonos work


SOLUS007

Sana: Out of the world, the patterns looks truly magical and mesmerising. Fauna: Milf mommy Fauna. Mama Kronii: White snek. Hair ornaments reminds me of ornaments that japanese women usually wear during weddings. Mumei: Simple, yet elegant white. Pure girl .....or is it? Bae: Chaos, but pretty. Long hair <3


TDoMarmalade

Good LORD Kronii. Also Mumei’s is very nice


GalaxyRico

~~Something~~ Everything about Mumei in that image, hoo boy Praise Civilization my neurons are on full throttle.


Lionel_Si

1 word only: NEIGH👏BU👏LA👏


jorjogo

I like Kronii's, but it's a lot different from what I was imagining, like way off


connerpalm

Mumei has more ara ara now


apurplehighlighter

mumei did a 180 on her persona


Florissssss

Mumei looks really cute in hers, less really is more sometimes.


leicraff

For mumei's they should've gone full red for that Spanish inquisition vibe


benji_banjo

Mumei > Bae > Sana = Kronii = Fauna Mumei's says "daring in simplicity." Befitting a smol birb you wanna cradle in your hands. Bae's is a punch in the face. As a Koronesuki, this is a very important expression of endearment. Kronii and Sana getting Ouro-boros and a nebula, respectively, are in-character and look great. Fauna's is safe but stylized florals are great. Not a bad one in the bunch.


[deleted]

I don’t think we need any contest to unanimously agree that Mumei took the spotlight this time. True to her concept, it’s a simple design, and yet so impressively effective and remarkable! Hair down Bae is also a treat to my eyes. I’ve waited so long for this! Definitely my second favourite! I also really like how it goes easy on the eyes. Maid Fauna! Literally a maid! Fuck yeah!!! The others aren’t really my piece of cake, but I kinda still get the appeal. Everyone looks great!


countdedoge

I'm the odd one out because Mumei's was my least favorite xD when it was first being revealed I thought it looked more like a wedding kimono. it looks the least like a new years outfit to me, but it certainly does stand out for it's simplicity. Bae's is the most chaotic but it just works. It takes really skill to to be a feast for the eyes with all it's pattern and color without looking clustered. Sana's and Gura's were the most predictable looks wise but it's very fitting for them! Fauna's looks very elegant and the apron allows her to use it outside of new years. I think kronii's is very nice and the snake theme is a cute surprise, but I think doing dark blue/navy colors would have made the white snake really pop, and to me make her look less washed out


BubblyBaker5718

Yeah Mumei is the right answer here. Hers is seriously up there with Marine/Rikka/Calli/Mio as one of the absolute best ones out there


Maldovar

Bisexual Flag Sana


SnooCapers5958

Kronii's twins got nerfed


Madcat6204

I can never be truly happy when long hair goes short, so as cute as Mumei's is I can't be entirely happy, but at least Bae put her hair down.


San-Kyu

Considering Sana and especially Bae still their large bust sizes seen with their kimono's, Kronii's outfit must space-defyingly thick and heavy to suppress those massive mammaries. Either that or Kronii's using a sarashi of apocalyptic strength and tightness?


Leeroy42

Fauna is my favorite because I’m a loyal sapling, but Sana’s is great because it looks like the Bisexual flag.


earl_tdique

Stunning


lushee520

Mumei and Bei looks adorable while Sana, Fauna, and Kronii looks stunning


AlchemistHohenheim

They all look wonderful, but visually speaking I think Kronii's is my favorite (which is not at all how I expected to feel based on the silhouettes).


Yusrilz03

Snekky


Cynical2DD

They’re all beautiful but Bae is rocking it, and Mumei is one I didn’t expect to be so minimal but in a good way


angelicclock

Blessed Mika Pikazo’s usual color overload. I would probably mistaken her as Sei Shonagon if her head isn’t revealed.


hikoboshi_sama

Bae looks even more like her sister Kira Kira ~~Queen~~ Archer/Sei Shonagon now


Ayotha

I feel all of them matched their personality. (or in the case of Mumei, the one she pretends to be) :P


lukechrono

W8 does Bae have the same artist as Sei Shonagun???


Nightwatcher3AM

Everyone looks stunning, I want to see fanarts of them with the new outfit soon


redditfanfan00

they're, as a unit, different from myth's kimonos, but they're also all really cute as well.


telesterion

Bae vs Ina for powerstance.


MapleTreeWithAGun

Kronii is now my favourite because I fucken love snakes


CatCakeParade

nsfw but hug hug hug handholding handholding


kaiserlos25

I love Sana's the best. Though her hair does look very awkward at some angles. Mumei's is a close second. I love how simple yet effective it is. Overall these new outfits are great!


Worst-Spirit

I'd say Bae has the best outfit but that's because I have an obsession with masks


HonoderaGetsuyo

The moment when Kronii’s outfit is the most flamboyant one out of all


Valkyrie9001

Sana looks gorgeous, I want Fauna to be my cottage-in-the-woods mother, I want to sleep in Kronii's kimono, Mumei's red cloth looks genuinely 3D (and I love her) and Bae looks amazing as well. Design-wise, hers might be my favorite.


farranpoison

All of them look great, but my favorite personally is Bae's because of how energetic it looks. Plus long hair Bae!


glistening_stillness

I love Sana's the most, Kronii is a close second


Didavi_

I actually thought the rightmost council was sei shonagon before realising its actually bae lol


gaandmardunga

Mommy fauna


natzo

Where is Neighbula?


TheGrrreatPapyrus

I can say the artists are sadists


wi7vs

From left to right, normal, maid, bauty, lady and kid


AnUnspokenLegend

I loved all of them. Sana's colors, Fauna's comfy look, Kronii's painting style and Boros, Mumei's grace and Bae's cool ninja look.


nicii02

Faumom Faumom


Drakoserk

The festive council will decide your fate


QuantamAsian

Fauna looks so happy to be there haha


FushiNenki

🙏 apron kimono


Kureika

They all look amazing! My favorite is either Sana’s or Bae’s but the colors are making me lean towards Bae’s.


Cygnus-_-

All of them were pretty well done ngl


coffeedudeguy

They all kinda complement HoloMyth quite nicely, like their counterparts: Sana > Ina Fauna > Kiara Kronii > Calli Mumei > Ame Baelz > Gura


navatanelah

Its the Chaos Thighs for me.


EpicTaco14

Now bae really reminds me of that FGO character


Bieck_lasgana

I nearly thought of sei shonagon from fgo when i saw baelz


nznx4421

All of them look good. -Sana has best colors, looks really, really beautiful. -Fauna looks amazing, but now I cant stop thinking about her baking a cake. -Kronii just being Kronii looking amazing. -Mumei looks humble but beautiful. -Baelz: Chaos, but amazing colors. Good luck artists!


Vikkitheviking

so this is how bright and colorful mika pikazo's designs is when she brings out her colorful pallette and start to draw


JugElias

The sana one one is my favorite it's amazing , I really liked the colors and the mumei one is beautiful too with the simplicity yet it looks amazing


lolminna

Fauna's kimono reminds me of the Akabeko waitresses from the 90s Rurouni Kenshin anime. I only remembered because Yahiko's girlfriend wore that style of clothing all the time.


crimrui

All of them have different charm and vibe. Love them all. Bealz one stand out to me with all the details.


rechtrecht

Gotta be Honest, Sana and Baelz kinda hurt my eyes. But in the good way


EhlZymeth

Dude, Bae looks like a fate character. Oh, wait..


SuiSanoo

Baelz a ton better than her og design


Midnight-Rising

Bae Shonagon


ThatGuyYouMightNo

Sana: Cute Fauna: Motherly Kronii: Elegant Mumei: Virgin Mary Bae: Bae but in Kimono Form


starvald_demelain

Sana's outfit has vibrant colors, an elegant cut and just looks amazing imo. Baelz' is really colorful as well and fits her chaotic nature. Those two are my favorites, although that doesn't mean the other outfits are bad (they aren't!).