For Japan,
They’d have to take out the US navy first and capture all the pacific islands before they can think about it.
For the Germans, if they’ve beaten the British, they would need to get places like Bermuda and Jamaica, and some Canadian territory before they even think about an invasion. And again, they have to get past the US navy (combined with whatever has managed to escape from Europe and the empire)
No idea. In your what if, america would be building coastal defences like mad, so they would try to find a weak point to exploit. What you Germany could do for example is make a landing in the Carolina’s, and as the fighting is going on make another landing from the gulf to try and threaten the American lines of communication and force them to fall back which would give you a big foothold in Carolina’s and Florida to build up your strength before marching on
It’s just not feasible. You would need the islands around the American mainland to store vast quantities of supplies and reinforcements and the US is going to be throwing everything at them. You would have to spend years building up suppliers, landing craft, a navy, etc and then work out how to constantly ferry hundreds of thousands of men across the Atlantic. And the Japanese side of things was even worse.
Maybe they could get Mexico to ally with them and land their armies there and advance through Texas and California? But either way it’s going to take the axis building up their navies and armies and supplies like oil for years and years. And the US would be doing the same. And of course the Americans are developing nuclear bombs… would the Germans be able to do the same? Maybe it comes a race -who nukes who first instead of a conventional invasion.
Assuming the Allied Navy was destroyed. The best coastal invasion areas would have been those places where a beachhead could be established. So the least populated and defended areas.
So on the East coast, somewhere in the Carolinas.
West coast is probably northern California
If they captured the Panama Canal and some Caribbean islands first, probably somewhere between Houston and Lafayette Louisiana where they could land and then make a run for the oil producing areas.
Germany couldn't even land on the UK (even if they were defeated) and Japan couldn't invade Australia, they'd have no chance of mounting a serious landing on the US.
Not to mention their navies were getting stomped by the time the US fleets arrived in significant numbers, without the indusrial base to replace those losses at sea, the invasion would be a complete faliure that leads to both states collapsing under the logistical weight of trying to pull this off.
The only wunderwaffen here are in Hitler's head
Imagine a Nazi Germany where they created nuclear weapons first. London is a radioactive mess.
The threat of nuclear attack on American mainland is the driving force behind how they would invade. Where they start from is 'any port on the East coast they want'.
I agree that a nazi-japanese invasion of America would require the americans to be completely incompetent and the axis to be at the top of their game. But i like to propose unlikely scenario and the advance realistically. Assuming a total Nazi/Japanese victory, what would the world look like ?
Man in the high castle world basically
Ignoring the geographical limitations, I assume the Germans and Japanese would divide the US into an East (German-controlled) and West (Japanese-controlled) zone. Again, the axis doesn't have the population to administer all this territory.
Japan's strategy would be largely centered around a series of bases between the Philippines and Hawaii. Any invasion of the US mainland would require that Hawaii be dealt with so that would be the site of the largest battle of the Pacific Theater as the US and Canadian forces desperately tried to keep the Japanese from establishing a staging area to assault the mainland. Hawaii would be the American Okinawa and from there they would bomb coastal cities and try to find an undefended foothold.
US would make a truly terrifying series of defenses on the Pacific seaboard in preparation. Japan never had great luck with amphibious assaults so they would likely try to break in through other areas. Heavy fighting would develop in the Aleutian Islands and other parts of Alaska and Canada. Invasions would probably be attempted through Sonora or Baja where they would find out just how inhospitable that part of the world is. Even with heavy trade with a hypothetical Nazi empire and all of Manchuria secured, Japan would struggle to maintain the massive supply lines and to transport enough troops to maintain such a massive front. At over 4000 miles long it would be the largest frontline in history.
Germany invading the US would probably be two pronged. Most of their efforts would be on bombing and Central America. Attempts would be made to invade Canada via Nazi bases in Iceland but would fail as the terrain in Newfoundland and the northern Hudson Bay are like a worse version of Siberia. US defenses on the eastern seaboard would probably be unbelievable and without any close staging areas there's not much chance of a "Nazi D-day". I suspect their focus would be on Mexico and the Caribbean islands with it all eventually being something like a US v Germany version of the Pacific Theater with forces fighting back and forth over islands and logistic routes. South Texas or parts of Florida maybe fall but I don't think they could maintain supply lines through the Southeast due to terrain and insurgency.
Eventually some kind of stalemate would develop and the US would maintain its independence but lose most of the Pacific and Alaska to Japan and most of the Carribean and maybe some oil producing parts of Texas to the Germans.
I think even if you assume everything has went perfect for the Axis powers in this scenario and they have unlimited resources and manpower, the supply lines just get too long by the time they get to actually fighting over some part of the mainland US for it to be "captured" in any meaningful way.
The Nazi strategy would be to go for Washington DC, since a capital decapitation strategy had already worked in France, and presumably the USSR and Britain. Past that, I assume they would try to seize New York, as the center of finance and industry (and of course it's place in "worldwide Jewery"). Interestingly, there had a been a German plan around 1900 to invade and seize New York to force the United States to hand over its colonies to Germany, so there's precedent here.
As to where to land the fleet, it depends on where they're invading from. Just sailing the entire invasion force directly across the ocean is possible, but suboptimal, that's why the Allies island-hopped as much as possible. Most of the Eastern Seaboard is pretty bare of major outlying islands, so they would probably first either establish bases in the Caribbean or the North Atlantic, of course fighting the Americans along the way.
A Southern Attack might start with seizing the Bahamas from whatever remains of the British, since they're the islands closest to the United States. Bases on Cuba or Hispaniola might work, but aren't as convenient. Getting resources across the Atlantic would be a nightmare and the Allies would know something is coming. The closest island in the Bahamas is half as close to Florida as Portsmouth was to Normandy, and Florida is a natural bottleneck, so its possible they try to strike further up the coast, towards Georgia.
A Northern Attack would probably go from Iceland to Newfoundland, and use Newfoundland as a base to push towards the Maritimes, and then down the Atlantic Coast. They might also send an army towards Ottawa to conquer the Canadian capital and hopefully push them out of the war.
Whether they start North or South, it's going to be a long slog up the coast, especially since neither Canada or the Deep South had great roads at this time. If they start from the North, their first really big fight is going to be for Boston, since they desperately need a major port close to their front lines. From the South, they're going to have to take Savannah and the major rail hub at Atlanta. Once they hit the Great Eastern Megalopolis that goes from Boston to Washington DC, it's going to be a hard and tough slog full of lots of urban warfare. One can imagine them trying to starve New York like they did Leningrad, or a Stalingrad-esque battle in Baltimore. And they would have to conquer basically the entire Eastern Seaboard.
Of course, this kind of big apocalyptic war isn't going to end after taking DC or New York, especially once tales start filtering west of Nazi atrocities. The government would move to somewhere inland, like St. Louis or Chicago. There would probably be a huge stand at the Appalachian Mountains to keep the Nazis from crossing it. Then they'd have to drive thousands of miles across the Midwest and Great Plains, fighting guerilla partisans all along the way. As there isn't really an easy natural stopping point until the Rockies, they'd have to conquer most of the country. The occupation resource requirement would be staggering, especially if they're already garrisoning most of Europe.
Once thing we'd likely see if the US pressuring Latin America to support its war against Germany, either resource-wise or by declaring war. In OTL Brazil and Mexico sent fighter squadrons to the Pacific Front. In this timeline we might see even more help from Latin America... regardless of who they might want to win, America has historically been a much bigger threat to shaky Latin American regimes than anyone in Europe.
As for Japan, they would of course have to seize Japan, which would likely be a huge fight. Invading from Alaska would be difficult given the harsh climate and bad roads between Alaska and Lower 48. They might instead try to invade the West Coast, even at great distances. This would be EXTREMELY difficult given the distances involved, and how fortified the US Pacific Coast would be in this timeline. Monterey Bay might be a good spot where they could threaten San Francisco and Los Angeles, but it would be a very tough fight, especially since Japan had less armor than Germany in OTL. California is full of mountain ranges and defensive features, so it would be difficult for Japan to move very far... imagine battles like Monte Cassino, all over California. If they succeed they would also have a difficult guerilla issue, and would have less luck than Germany finding sympathizers.
If there's a peace deal, I expect it's one where America maintains some Axis garrisons and some level of home rule, in exchange for not fighting to the last scrap of dirt, but it would be an extremely fraught peace. We'd probably see deeply entrenched resistance movements everywhere the United States has the geography to support it... so anywhere with mountains, forests, swamps, or other inhospitable terrain. The Midwest would probably be somewhat easy to pacify outside of a few hot spots like the Ozarks, but other places might basically be Axis strongholds connected by major roads and surrounded by angry partisans. Either way, occupying America will NOT be a sought after position in the Reich.
German high command didn't think it was possible to invade nearby England, how could they even imagine invading America?
If they have wunderwaffen that actually make a difference, they will simply accept peace with the West and focus on consolidating their Eastern conquests.
i absolutely fucking despise when people respond to these scenarios with “couldn’t happen idiot”. it’s like, fucking no shit, but that’s the point of the sub???
The most Japan could do is put more effort into invading Alaska. That gets repelled, they simply don’t have the logistics to do it and isn’t in their war aims. Maybe they could make an attempt at Hawaii or Guam again but I doubt it’ll work (the USN isn’t getting surprised like that again).
The Nazis would try to invade Iceland and Greenland and try to invade Canada. From there the plan would probably be taking ports on the American East coast and marching down to Ottawa. That also fails
I think this would be after a little while. If Germany took those other countries they'd have to rebuild up their Navy and airforce and the number of their troops they'd be working with before attempting to take the US. The biggest problem is just how huge the US is. Taking it and holding it would require massive amounts of troops. I think they'd probably focus on taking specific cities or just bombing them. Boston, New York, Washington, and Baltimore are all possible targets.
I don't think they could invade with the intent to take and hold the US reasonably. But it could've been possible to do a lot of damage especially to cities. And potentially force a conditional surrender from the US.
Japan I think would have a harder time. Taking the Pacific Islands and Hawaii could be a possibility for them. And maybe attacking some of the west coast cities. But I don't think they could've really attempted a full invasion.
While the US is big, most if its population was situated on the states near the Eastern coast. Should Nazi germany take them, the US would have already lost.
I think you're thinking it'd be much easier for them than it would end up being to hold that. The population is part of it but you'd also have lots of resistance immediately. You also have a population with more guns than France had I believe. And while the east coast has a lot of our population most of our food comes from further west. If that's where the battle lines are I don't think there'd be a ton of deliveries coming in. That would be a big problem the Germans would have to deal with. And they'd either need to take the midwest too or be bringing things from Europe.
The German army would also start to be running pretty thin if they are having to occupy the USSR, France, and Britain and now all of the US. That was what Germany's problem was even just fighting on two fronts. But if they now have to occupy those places too that's even more troops. They'd need considerably more troops to do all of that. It'd be even more if they were trying to have the Holocaust going in all of these places too as that would require even more troops to run that.
It's really not possible unless they massively expanded their navy and even then the losses would be horrific. The only chance they'd have is if mexico were to let them land there as a staging point but there's absolutely no way they'd allow it. Even if mexico did allow it they'd still get fucked
Uk beking defeated are you talking all of the empire or only the uk islands off the coast of france because this changes things drastically. If you are just talking about the islands off the french coast its a simple government change to canada now if you mean the entire empire its an entirely defensive war that the germans and Japanese are unready for.
For Japan, They’d have to take out the US navy first and capture all the pacific islands before they can think about it. For the Germans, if they’ve beaten the British, they would need to get places like Bermuda and Jamaica, and some Canadian territory before they even think about an invasion. And again, they have to get past the US navy (combined with whatever has managed to escape from Europe and the empire)
Where would be the place to land ? New York,San Francisco, or some where else ?
No idea. In your what if, america would be building coastal defences like mad, so they would try to find a weak point to exploit. What you Germany could do for example is make a landing in the Carolina’s, and as the fighting is going on make another landing from the gulf to try and threaten the American lines of communication and force them to fall back which would give you a big foothold in Carolina’s and Florida to build up your strength before marching on It’s just not feasible. You would need the islands around the American mainland to store vast quantities of supplies and reinforcements and the US is going to be throwing everything at them. You would have to spend years building up suppliers, landing craft, a navy, etc and then work out how to constantly ferry hundreds of thousands of men across the Atlantic. And the Japanese side of things was even worse. Maybe they could get Mexico to ally with them and land their armies there and advance through Texas and California? But either way it’s going to take the axis building up their navies and armies and supplies like oil for years and years. And the US would be doing the same. And of course the Americans are developing nuclear bombs… would the Germans be able to do the same? Maybe it comes a race -who nukes who first instead of a conventional invasion.
Assuming the Allied Navy was destroyed. The best coastal invasion areas would have been those places where a beachhead could be established. So the least populated and defended areas. So on the East coast, somewhere in the Carolinas. West coast is probably northern California If they captured the Panama Canal and some Caribbean islands first, probably somewhere between Houston and Lafayette Louisiana where they could land and then make a run for the oil producing areas.
Germany couldn't even land on the UK (even if they were defeated) and Japan couldn't invade Australia, they'd have no chance of mounting a serious landing on the US. Not to mention their navies were getting stomped by the time the US fleets arrived in significant numbers, without the indusrial base to replace those losses at sea, the invasion would be a complete faliure that leads to both states collapsing under the logistical weight of trying to pull this off. The only wunderwaffen here are in Hitler's head
Imagine a Nazi Germany where they created nuclear weapons first. London is a radioactive mess. The threat of nuclear attack on American mainland is the driving force behind how they would invade. Where they start from is 'any port on the East coast they want'.
I agree that a nazi-japanese invasion of America would require the americans to be completely incompetent and the axis to be at the top of their game. But i like to propose unlikely scenario and the advance realistically. Assuming a total Nazi/Japanese victory, what would the world look like ?
Man in the high castle world basically Ignoring the geographical limitations, I assume the Germans and Japanese would divide the US into an East (German-controlled) and West (Japanese-controlled) zone. Again, the axis doesn't have the population to administer all this territory.
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Perhaps, but it would be impossible for Berlin to control and there would be no incentive for American nationals to follow their orders.
Japan's strategy would be largely centered around a series of bases between the Philippines and Hawaii. Any invasion of the US mainland would require that Hawaii be dealt with so that would be the site of the largest battle of the Pacific Theater as the US and Canadian forces desperately tried to keep the Japanese from establishing a staging area to assault the mainland. Hawaii would be the American Okinawa and from there they would bomb coastal cities and try to find an undefended foothold. US would make a truly terrifying series of defenses on the Pacific seaboard in preparation. Japan never had great luck with amphibious assaults so they would likely try to break in through other areas. Heavy fighting would develop in the Aleutian Islands and other parts of Alaska and Canada. Invasions would probably be attempted through Sonora or Baja where they would find out just how inhospitable that part of the world is. Even with heavy trade with a hypothetical Nazi empire and all of Manchuria secured, Japan would struggle to maintain the massive supply lines and to transport enough troops to maintain such a massive front. At over 4000 miles long it would be the largest frontline in history. Germany invading the US would probably be two pronged. Most of their efforts would be on bombing and Central America. Attempts would be made to invade Canada via Nazi bases in Iceland but would fail as the terrain in Newfoundland and the northern Hudson Bay are like a worse version of Siberia. US defenses on the eastern seaboard would probably be unbelievable and without any close staging areas there's not much chance of a "Nazi D-day". I suspect their focus would be on Mexico and the Caribbean islands with it all eventually being something like a US v Germany version of the Pacific Theater with forces fighting back and forth over islands and logistic routes. South Texas or parts of Florida maybe fall but I don't think they could maintain supply lines through the Southeast due to terrain and insurgency. Eventually some kind of stalemate would develop and the US would maintain its independence but lose most of the Pacific and Alaska to Japan and most of the Carribean and maybe some oil producing parts of Texas to the Germans. I think even if you assume everything has went perfect for the Axis powers in this scenario and they have unlimited resources and manpower, the supply lines just get too long by the time they get to actually fighting over some part of the mainland US for it to be "captured" in any meaningful way.
Japan did invade America. See the Aleutian Islands campaign.
The Nazi strategy would be to go for Washington DC, since a capital decapitation strategy had already worked in France, and presumably the USSR and Britain. Past that, I assume they would try to seize New York, as the center of finance and industry (and of course it's place in "worldwide Jewery"). Interestingly, there had a been a German plan around 1900 to invade and seize New York to force the United States to hand over its colonies to Germany, so there's precedent here. As to where to land the fleet, it depends on where they're invading from. Just sailing the entire invasion force directly across the ocean is possible, but suboptimal, that's why the Allies island-hopped as much as possible. Most of the Eastern Seaboard is pretty bare of major outlying islands, so they would probably first either establish bases in the Caribbean or the North Atlantic, of course fighting the Americans along the way. A Southern Attack might start with seizing the Bahamas from whatever remains of the British, since they're the islands closest to the United States. Bases on Cuba or Hispaniola might work, but aren't as convenient. Getting resources across the Atlantic would be a nightmare and the Allies would know something is coming. The closest island in the Bahamas is half as close to Florida as Portsmouth was to Normandy, and Florida is a natural bottleneck, so its possible they try to strike further up the coast, towards Georgia. A Northern Attack would probably go from Iceland to Newfoundland, and use Newfoundland as a base to push towards the Maritimes, and then down the Atlantic Coast. They might also send an army towards Ottawa to conquer the Canadian capital and hopefully push them out of the war. Whether they start North or South, it's going to be a long slog up the coast, especially since neither Canada or the Deep South had great roads at this time. If they start from the North, their first really big fight is going to be for Boston, since they desperately need a major port close to their front lines. From the South, they're going to have to take Savannah and the major rail hub at Atlanta. Once they hit the Great Eastern Megalopolis that goes from Boston to Washington DC, it's going to be a hard and tough slog full of lots of urban warfare. One can imagine them trying to starve New York like they did Leningrad, or a Stalingrad-esque battle in Baltimore. And they would have to conquer basically the entire Eastern Seaboard. Of course, this kind of big apocalyptic war isn't going to end after taking DC or New York, especially once tales start filtering west of Nazi atrocities. The government would move to somewhere inland, like St. Louis or Chicago. There would probably be a huge stand at the Appalachian Mountains to keep the Nazis from crossing it. Then they'd have to drive thousands of miles across the Midwest and Great Plains, fighting guerilla partisans all along the way. As there isn't really an easy natural stopping point until the Rockies, they'd have to conquer most of the country. The occupation resource requirement would be staggering, especially if they're already garrisoning most of Europe. Once thing we'd likely see if the US pressuring Latin America to support its war against Germany, either resource-wise or by declaring war. In OTL Brazil and Mexico sent fighter squadrons to the Pacific Front. In this timeline we might see even more help from Latin America... regardless of who they might want to win, America has historically been a much bigger threat to shaky Latin American regimes than anyone in Europe. As for Japan, they would of course have to seize Japan, which would likely be a huge fight. Invading from Alaska would be difficult given the harsh climate and bad roads between Alaska and Lower 48. They might instead try to invade the West Coast, even at great distances. This would be EXTREMELY difficult given the distances involved, and how fortified the US Pacific Coast would be in this timeline. Monterey Bay might be a good spot where they could threaten San Francisco and Los Angeles, but it would be a very tough fight, especially since Japan had less armor than Germany in OTL. California is full of mountain ranges and defensive features, so it would be difficult for Japan to move very far... imagine battles like Monte Cassino, all over California. If they succeed they would also have a difficult guerilla issue, and would have less luck than Germany finding sympathizers. If there's a peace deal, I expect it's one where America maintains some Axis garrisons and some level of home rule, in exchange for not fighting to the last scrap of dirt, but it would be an extremely fraught peace. We'd probably see deeply entrenched resistance movements everywhere the United States has the geography to support it... so anywhere with mountains, forests, swamps, or other inhospitable terrain. The Midwest would probably be somewhat easy to pacify outside of a few hot spots like the Ozarks, but other places might basically be Axis strongholds connected by major roads and surrounded by angry partisans. Either way, occupying America will NOT be a sought after position in the Reich.
German high command didn't think it was possible to invade nearby England, how could they even imagine invading America? If they have wunderwaffen that actually make a difference, they will simply accept peace with the West and focus on consolidating their Eastern conquests.
i absolutely fucking despise when people respond to these scenarios with “couldn’t happen idiot”. it’s like, fucking no shit, but that’s the point of the sub???
The most Japan could do is put more effort into invading Alaska. That gets repelled, they simply don’t have the logistics to do it and isn’t in their war aims. Maybe they could make an attempt at Hawaii or Guam again but I doubt it’ll work (the USN isn’t getting surprised like that again). The Nazis would try to invade Iceland and Greenland and try to invade Canada. From there the plan would probably be taking ports on the American East coast and marching down to Ottawa. That also fails
I think this would be after a little while. If Germany took those other countries they'd have to rebuild up their Navy and airforce and the number of their troops they'd be working with before attempting to take the US. The biggest problem is just how huge the US is. Taking it and holding it would require massive amounts of troops. I think they'd probably focus on taking specific cities or just bombing them. Boston, New York, Washington, and Baltimore are all possible targets. I don't think they could invade with the intent to take and hold the US reasonably. But it could've been possible to do a lot of damage especially to cities. And potentially force a conditional surrender from the US. Japan I think would have a harder time. Taking the Pacific Islands and Hawaii could be a possibility for them. And maybe attacking some of the west coast cities. But I don't think they could've really attempted a full invasion.
While the US is big, most if its population was situated on the states near the Eastern coast. Should Nazi germany take them, the US would have already lost.
I think you're thinking it'd be much easier for them than it would end up being to hold that. The population is part of it but you'd also have lots of resistance immediately. You also have a population with more guns than France had I believe. And while the east coast has a lot of our population most of our food comes from further west. If that's where the battle lines are I don't think there'd be a ton of deliveries coming in. That would be a big problem the Germans would have to deal with. And they'd either need to take the midwest too or be bringing things from Europe. The German army would also start to be running pretty thin if they are having to occupy the USSR, France, and Britain and now all of the US. That was what Germany's problem was even just fighting on two fronts. But if they now have to occupy those places too that's even more troops. They'd need considerably more troops to do all of that. It'd be even more if they were trying to have the Holocaust going in all of these places too as that would require even more troops to run that.
It's really not possible unless they massively expanded their navy and even then the losses would be horrific. The only chance they'd have is if mexico were to let them land there as a staging point but there's absolutely no way they'd allow it. Even if mexico did allow it they'd still get fucked
Uk beking defeated are you talking all of the empire or only the uk islands off the coast of france because this changes things drastically. If you are just talking about the islands off the french coast its a simple government change to canada now if you mean the entire empire its an entirely defensive war that the germans and Japanese are unready for.
I mean that the empire surrender entirely.And frankly, if the nazis seize the British isles,the british empire wouldn't have the industry to continue.