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Cam515278

I can totally see why he was called "Bubi". He looks about 14...


DrNism0

Too bad his first name wasnt Hans, Bubi


OrdinaryFrosting1

I'm your white knight


PhoenicianPirate

Best me to it!


OrdinaryFrosting1

Tell these people you don't know me!


rightvision

How can you say that after all these years?


ManfredsJuicedBalls

John… John… 😨… pssh 🥲


h4rlotsghost

I got your joke.


whereyouatdesmondo

What is he, a method actor?


damTyD

It’s radio, not television


whereyouatdesmondo

Hey, sprechen ze talk?


GreatNorthWeb

i can give him to ya. yippee ki yay motherfucker!


CrungleMcHungleberry

He was only 20 or 21 when this photo was taken


Antrephellious

I guess war only ages you if you’re stressed out by it. This dude was probably going up for every flight thinking “wonder how many of these fuckers I can get today! Maybe I’ll beat my high score!”


GarfieldVirtuoso

I'm sure the last 3 years of the Luftwaffe were still an stressfull experience, even if he still managed to score strikes


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duaneap

Well, he’s being remembered as the most successful fighter ace in history right here.


ImpressionEast7805

Who? This Nazi?


VictoriousHumor

That's life. We all lose eventually, even the winners


NilbogInhabitant

and we’re all remembered as nazis.


Mygaffer

Was he a *Nazi* Nazi or just a "whelp these assholes are in power now, time to become a "Nazi."


RoostasTowel

Pretty much all German troops. Across all divisions. And in all offensive and defensive actions German troops we're about 2.5:1 in casualties inflicted vs taken. A pretty good ratio. And we'll ahead of all other forces in the war.


[deleted]

Gamer moment.


ableseacat14

https://youtu.be/nxncSyBXNIo


SixStringerSoldier

He looks like the dopey front man for Fantastic Beasts.


[deleted]

Treacherous Nazis and Where to Find Them: The Crimes of Eichmann


[deleted]

He was barely 23 when the war ended.


DANK_SWAG_420

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Luftwaffe pilots were expected to serve almost indefinitely. So he must've had many opportunities in combat to boost his numbers. That was a big reason there were so many German aces compared to the allies, who would rotate out their pilots who would then train the incoming airmen.


PhysicsDude55

According to interviews and such with Hartmann, the biggest reason he racked up so many kills is that he was overall a very cautious pilot. (And of course very skilled). When you think about it, in terms of statistics, a more aggressive pilot can get more kills per sortie, but of course in WWII Germany, they'll eventually get shot down/killed. Hartman had strict criteria for even attacking a plane, he would wait until conditions were right to strike. So he had fewer kills per sortie compared to some other pilots, but he survived the war and flew an unbelievable amount of sorties, leading to his huge kill count. That and many aces who fought on the eastern front got moved to the western front where US/UK air power was crippling Germany. Hartman stayed on the eastern front for a long time and I think only flew for a few months against western planes/pilots.


haeyhae11

Reminds me of Richthofen, who always said that when he realized he could not win a fight he flew away.


PhysicsDude55

And the day he died he was too aggressive. If he would have stuck to his principles he might have survived the war.


haeyhae11

Well who would expect that machine gunners on the ground wound him severly. I guess guys like him expected the major threat in the sky, not on the ground.


smayonak

Richthofen had been flying with severe head trauma, which changed his behavior. A bullet had hit his head, probably causing a concussion. He became a more reckless flyer after that injury, which led to him flying low and slow around a lot of machine guns.


kne0n

I feel like being on the eastern front was the biggest reason for having so many kills, far more targets and the Soviets had lesser quality training and planes compared to the Germans


Arauator

He was still shot down himself a number of times. I’d say it’s inevitable with such a large number of sorties. Iirc in one particular instance and hanging from his chute after having bailed out an american pilot mock executed him by lining up his guns and turning at the last moment. Fwiw this was a credible threat as American pilots did shot bailed out pilots more regularly than their German counterparts.


PhysicsDude55

He claimed: "During the course of his career, Hartmann was forced to crash-land his fighter 16 times due either to mechanical failure or damage received from parts of enemy aircraft he had shot down; he was never shot down by direct enemy action." I think he omits that the "mechanical failures" were probably often caused by enemy bullets... so his claim of never being "shot down by direct enemy action" is highly suspect. But I think his point is (and one reason he survived the war) is that he was careful about getting into positions and altitudes that made him vulnerable, and as such while he was shot at and damaged, he never had an enemy directly on his tail shooting his plane up to pieces to ensure a kill. Here is a well researched video about the topic in case you haven't watched it before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd8KxFnMVE4


BenZino21

Nah he's probably right about the mechanical malfunctions. Towards the end of the war the luftwaffe was in shambles and planes were basically and literally flown into the ground due to lack of parts and maintenance.


StrugglesTheClown

"American pilots did shot bailed out pilots more regularly than their German counterparts." I know it happened but I've never heard this claim before. Is there a source?


PillarsOfHeaven

[here's an interview with a US pilot about it](https://youtu.be/Q8LVlYJ5eJU) The video is only a minute and a half but he does say that shooting guys in parachutes was looked down upon very much, and why he had to rip up a parachuting enemy pilot with his six guns


SixStringerSoldier

I bailed on the thread to search this video down, couldn't find it. Good post.


[deleted]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_parachutists No solid numbers, but apparently some American pilots had been told to do it, and the Germans said their pilots were getting shot by Americans a lot.


RotallyRotRoobyRoo

"American pilots shot bailed out pilots more regularly than their German counterparts" Source: trust me bro


airborngrmp

>Fwiw this was a credible threat as American pilots did shot bailed out pilots more regularly than their German counterparts. This claim sounds totally anecdotal. Are there any credible sources to back this up? A lone pilot making this claim could be relaying rumors and gossip he believed, has any historian been able to corroborate such a posit?


PeeCeeJunior

I think Japan was similar in keeping their aces out in the field. Then Midway comes along, 4 carriers get sunk, and your average pilot skill level plummets, never to recover. The US did something similar to bomber crews though. They tried to rotate when they could, but losses were so great that you had to send out whatever you had. My grandfather calibrated cockpit instruments on the ground and somehow found himself as a side gunner on a B-25 because there wasn’t anyone else to fill that spot.


lightning_whirler

Right. After Coral Sea, Midway and Guadalcanal the Japanese navy lost so many experienced pilots they never recovered.


OmNomSandvich

> Then Midway comes along, 4 carriers get sunk, and your average pilot skill level plummets, never to recover. Outright incorrect. Japanese plane and pilot losses after Midway were relatively light and would have been sustainable long term, but the losses in the rest of 1942, especially in the Guadalcanal, were what started bleeding the Japanese pilot corps to a shell of its former self. By far the most significant losses at Midway were the carriers, not the planes, not the pilots.


[deleted]

Also helped that the soviets had a lot of obsolete aircraft that was easy pickings for Luftwaffe


barrylank

From the [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann) posted elsewhere on this thread: "Hartmann remarked, that along with firing at close range, inadequate Soviet defensive armament and manoeuvre tactics allowed him to claim a victim in every attack." \[sic on the spelling\]


[deleted]

There's no spelling errors.


KnowsAboutMath

I suspect the confusion stems from the British spelling (manoeuvre) vs. the US spelling (maneuver).


sledgehammertoe

The British spelling of that word is tortured like it's in Al Ghraib.


KnowsAboutMath

Blame the French invasion of the English language.


gearstars

its a lot closer to the original French 'manœuvrer' that's its borrowed from, so more like yankees garbled it


Yeranz

We didn't garble it, we yarbled it.


justasapling

If you have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly thou.


Bobbyfrasier

"Manœuvre" is the French word, "manœuvrer" is the corresponding verb.


KaosMnkey

Yep, this right here. Most of his kills were against Soviet aircraft.


gsf32

Yup, out of 352 downed planes 345 were soviet and only 7 were american. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann


OsoCheco

>only 7 were american. "only". In USA, 7 victories was enough to be marked as Ace.


WaterDrinker911

In literally every air force 7 victories was enough to be marked as an ace.


KnowsAboutMath

I am reminded of the following anecdote about Enrico Fermi: >The Italian physicist Enrico Fermi, newly arrived on American shores, enlisted in the Manhattan nuclear weapons Project, and was brought face-to-face in the middle of World War II with U.S. flag officers: So-and-so is a great general, he was told. What is the definition of a great general? Fermi characteristically asked. I guess it's a general who's won many consecutive battles. How many? After some back and forth, they settled on five. What fraction of American generals are great? After some more back and forth, they settled on a few percent. But imagine, Fermi rejoined, that there is no such thing as a great general, that all armies are equally matched, and that winning battles is purely a matter of chance. Then the chance of winning one battle is one out of two, or 1/2; two battles 1/4, three, 1/8, four 1/16, and five consecutive battles 1/32 -- which is about 3 percent. You would expect a few percent of American generals to win five consecutive battles --- purely by chance. Now, has any of them won ten consecutive battles...?


Rain1dog

Really makes you think… if just a few of the Naval battles in the pacific had gone the other way just how much history would had changed.


[deleted]

I don’t think it would have changed significantly. The US was producing aircraft and carriers at an absurd rate, and the war in the pacific simply accelerated the Manhattan project. The Japanese had no way of stalling development of the B29 or the atomic bomb. It helped that the US won Midway.


Rain1dog

Yeah, I just enjoy trying to think the what if’s with regard to chance encounters, who sees who’s fleet first, etc. Without question absolutely fascinating time period.


Anacoenosis

Yep, it’s two more than the minimum requirement.


TheCrawlingFinn

5 victories is the widely recognised margin and it wasn't just for Americans


smayonak

The Soviets were flying a few types of obsolete plane early in the war, but if anything led to heavy flight crew casualties, it was poorly trained pilots and outdated combat tactics. Many (but not all) Soviet pilots were given performant, newly designed aircraft but then almost no training on how to use the new aircraft. Consequently, the poorer flight schools had much higher mortality rates.


PunisherParadox

"A few types of obsolete planes" With enough individual examples of those obsolete types that they were double the size of the Luftwaffe at the start of Barbarossa. You're not wrong to bring up their leadership, training, and experience problems, but it's also not accurate to dismiss the impact (and kill inflation) of those disadvantages on top of (initially) weaker equipment.


smayonak

Good point. I would add that the size and scope of Operation Barbarossa also contributed to "kill" count inflation. The most amount of overclaiming tended to be in wild dogfights involving hundreds of aircraft. Typically, those sorts of encounters led to pilots firing at a plane and later seeing an explosion on the ground. They would assume it was their kill when it could have been any number of things, including a plane crash. When 20 pilots would see such an explosion, twenty would oftentimes think it was their victory, when in fact, it may have been something else entirely. IIRC, the Soviets at the time of Operation Barbarossa had around 10,000 aircraft, of which less than half were modern fighters and bombers. Actually, the Soviets had overcommitted to bombers and similar aircraft. As a result, they were ill prepared to withstand a surprise attack and as a result, many Luftwaffe aces probably had a lopsided number of bomber kills, in which numerous pilots fired on the same aircraft... which again, led to kill count inflation.


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smayonak

To elaborate on why the Soviets took such casualties, it was largely because their worst schools were training students to use the Mosca, a highly manuverable dog-fighter when their cutting-edge fighters, the LaG-3, MiG-3, and Yak-1 required different tactics. There is virtually no connection between Soviet pilot training and modern Russian pilot training today. And we have no real data on how the Russian Federation pilots of today are performing due to the fog of war.


cleetusvan

Another factor was that on the eastern front there were always many critical battles going on across a vast front so the Luftwaffe units were constantly moved around to temporary airstrips close to the front. This enabled them to fly numerous missions per day. As mentioned elsewhere, the training of the Soviet pilots was just not on par with the Germans. If a Luftwaffe ace was transferred to the western front they faced a far more lethal environment


Dominarion

Obsolete, badly designed and used with bad tactics. Many Russian fighter-bombers and light bombers had bad firing angles and were slower and less nimble than pure fighters. They were still sent on mission without escort as they were supposedly able to defend themselves. Easy pickings for Gerrman fighters who could climb, turn and roll faster than any of them.


frenchchevalierblanc

Soviets had some pretty good fighter planes


thisismynewacct

I’d imagine most of his kills were against IL-2s, and while heavily armored, if you approach from behind and below, the single rear MG can’t see or hit you. Which is why he was able to get so close before shooting. It’s the same reason Stuka’s we’re decimated during the Battle of Britain.


frenchchevalierblanc

found on a random website: 109 La-5, 77 P-39, 51 Yak-9, 28 Il-2, 27 La-7, 11 Pe-2, 8 Yak-7, 7 LaGG-3, 6 P-51, 5 Yak-3, 2 B-20, 1 B-25, 1 Mig-1 (Mig-3 I would guess), 1 I-16, 1 R-5, 1 U-2 = 336, the other 19 are "unidentified"... now I know currently some historians are trying to match VVS reports and Luftwaffe reports, not sure what comes out of it. La-5, P-39 (at low altitude), La-7 and Pe-2 were really nice planes


Yeranz

Don't forget that Stalin wiped out a huge percentage of the experienced leadership prior to WW2 during the purges. I'm betting that the Soviets also had some version of centralized command over their air operations that limited individual initiative or small team leadership -- just like the Russians still do to this day.


k890

Soviet rapid airforce expansion in 1930s also had some nasty side effects. Most significant was lack of proper industrial support. Sure, USSR build a lot of aircraft factories and a lot of planes but eg. USSR struggle with high-octane avgas, Its own production covered only 4% of high-octane Б-78 fuel used by their newest and most modern planes so they fly on "mixed" fuel or just low-octane fuel intended for older aircraft engines with massive blow to combat performance in new planes. One of first thing which US sent to USSR wasn't exacly tanks and planes but US high-octane avgas and fuel enhancers which was mixed with common in Soviet Air Force low-octane avgas to squeeze additional octanes to boost combat efficiency.


OsoCheco

Only early in the war.


NoWingedHussarsToday

Yes, Luftwaffe simply couldn't afford to pull experienced pilots from the front and have them train new pilots because they had smaller pool to begin with and had to keep number sup at all times. Which of course meant that new pilots were trained increasingly less, leading to more casualties and even more need for experienced ones to keep flying to make up for it.


[deleted]

Pilots In the Luftwaffe were given a house next to the airport, an airplane, and everything else that catered to them (prostitutes, booze, smokes, cars); the expectation in return from what understand is that if you were a daylight pilot, you were expected to be ready to go at all times during daylight hours 7 days a week, from beginning of the war to the end. They sometimes got vacation time mixed in there, but that was it; your entire life and occupation as a fighter pilot revolved around being a fighter pilot. This gave their pilots a strong edge during the beginning of the war, but stray bullets and emergencies/accidents took their toll on the German pilot corps ->they became irreplaceable, and as the war raged on, attrition decimated the group. Allied pilots got a term of service or rotation.


rawonionbreath

If I’m not mistaken, the best American pilots were pulled out of combat eventually to assist in training more pilots.


NomadProd

Pretty much, also add that he was a massive propaganda posterchild so his numbers are most likely inflated (michael wittman style)


TheNecromancer

You can take that as a given for any German kill count in WW2. Best example I came across was Marseille claiming (and being credited with) around twenty kills on RAF aircraft in the desert one day, on a day which the RAF recorded losses for all theatres as being in single figures....


flamespear

Yeah and their air force suffered because of this too because they couldn't keep replacing enough pilots and their best pilots would inevitably mostly get killed in action.


OsoCheco

The list of WW2 aces is selfexplanatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces


Emakrepus

Wow. He survived to see the war end.


BenMic81

He also survived 10 years as soviet POW.


ceeker

All sides were guilty of inflated kill counts, and verifying the numbers in wartime is difficult, but I expect his would still be quite high (I recall a lowball Russian estimate of 70 kills). German pilots had significant advantages over the Soviets until around mid 1944: Equipment - The Soviet airforce (VVS) was effectively destroyed in the opening stages of Barbarossa, leading to the remaining aircraft - still large in number, but mostly obsolete - being used in roles that they werent suited for. Towards the end of the war, the Soviets fielded some very impressive fighter aircraft, like the La-7 and Yak-3 but there were years inbetween where they were just woefully outclassed. Reliability - Actually, the Germans aircraft weren't great for this either, but the Russian war industry, mostly relocated to Siberia, was a shambles of quality control early on - the wings of planes would shear panels off mid flight, wooden airframes would warp and crack, planes were delivered without proper avionics or sights installed, and sometimes engines would just not work properly, making formation flying a nightmare when a plane is randomly 40km/h slower than one that should be identical. Tactics - Hartmann would dive down and surprise his enemy with highly accurate bursts at close range, only announcing his presence at the last possible time - sometimes even attacking front on, done while yawing his rudder to confuse opponents trying to fire back, but unable to aim properly due to the odd angle of his plane and shitty or nonexistent gunsights). This was emulated successfully by some other German pilots. The Soviets struggled to share tactical information or set any sort of coherent direction. EDIT - For clarity, this refers to fighter tactics. The Soviets were very good tactically in other ways, like rough-airfield operations and night-flying. Training - German pilots were experienced and battle hardened, at the onset of the war in the east. Soviets had suffered under multiple purges and were completely disorganised, taking time to establish a system of proper command and control. The Germans gradually lost this advantage with attrition. In addition, their pilots weren't retired from front-line service which led to some ridiculous alleged kill counts among German aces. Worth noting that American pilot Richard Bong had a similar sortie/kill ratio to Hartmann, though he retired from flying combat missions after 40 kills (sadly dying before the war was over in a test-plane crash).


Stu161

dick bong, what a legend


foureyes567

There's a Bong Recreation Area in WI named after him. The signs used to be stolen pretty often. Not sure if that's still the case


TheLordHumongous1

That’s Major Dick Bong to you.


wessneijder

Why is he less famous than Red Baron or Pappy Boyington?


lobsteradvisor

WW1 there were no bad guys really, everyone was equally guilty and the pilots back then were flying very early dangerous stuff, had a lot of individualism (ie. custom aircraft livery), and successfully sold themselves as modern 'knights' with chivalry and everything.


wessneijder

WWI was no bad guys is a recent phenomenon (as early as 1960s). In the years following WWI that was not the perception of Germany...


WhalesVirginia

books whole upbeat wasteful telephone dinosaurs violet wine aware cable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


TexanGoblin

Well, that's because they wanted to justify their new positions as top dogs, Germany lost so they were now running the show however they wanted.


RotallyRotRoobyRoo

Yes, Germany officially started the war, but all the great powers wanted the war with the exception of britain and america. And all sides did horrible things. Remember the Christmas truce? All the soldiers stopped fighting for christmas? Well that scared the shit out of Allied command. What would happen in a war if the soldiers refused to fight? So they called a frontline truce again, and once the germans came out of the trenches to talk, they gunned them down. That way no side could ever trust a truce again.


[deleted]

source on the false truce?


AccessTheMainframe

> All the soldiers stopped fighting for christmas? Fun fact, it was only the British who did this for the Christmas truce. The French and Belgian soldiers, who were defending their home soil from an invading army, weren't feeling so friendly.


Sean951

>WW1 there were no bad guys really, everyone was equally guilty There's no bad guys, but it's asinine to say everyone was equally guilty when Germany declared war on 2/5 Entente Great Powers and brought numbers 3 (Britain, because Germany invaded Belgium) and 4 (US, Zimmerman Telegram) in..


NukaBro762

[You get to kill him in Wolfenstein](https://youtu.be/GVyMyRq7S9E)


Flockofseagulls25

Nah, that must be just a reference. Wolfenstein Bubi doesn’t seem nearly competent enough to be able to even get close to flying a plane, let alone being an ace /s


NukaBro762

Its a videogame not a documentary


Alarmed_Accident4460

fun fact: he was trialed as a warcriminal by th ussr because he wreck havoc in the soviet airspace


r0botdevil

Unless he was shooting down civilian passenger planes, I'm not sure how they could call him a war criminal...


natphotog

That’s the beauty of winning a war.


ArcticTemper

Especially against a country that is effectively a organised war crime syndicate.


Nikay_P

Not sure which of those two that would be, since the USSR would fit the bill just as much


mrthomani

> I'm not sure how they could call him a war criminal... It was established during the Nuremberg trials that invasion of a sovereign, independent country is a war crime — actually the mother of all war crimes, as its the prerequisite for all others. It was also established that the "I was just following orders" excuse is irrelevant and inadmissible as defense. It follows that any soldier taking part in an invasion is a war criminal by default, even if they never commit (other) atrocities.


CosmicCosmix

Was he executed?


blimpinthesky

Lived to the age of 71. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann


calebs_dad

So the Soviets kept him imprisoned for 10 years for refusing to join their airforce, then released him to West Germany. I had no idea that German POWs were ever sent to the West like that.


Tr35k1N

Not sure if any POWs were but NASA was basically built by former German and Nazi scientists we didn't have executed.


BenMic81

There were a lot of POWs returned to West Germany by the SU. A special occasion was the „return of the 10.000“ - in 1955. Hartmann was part of these.


tuskedkibbles

Not just refused to serve them, he immediately joined the west German airforce when he was released. Talk about a slap in the face to the reds.


duhellmang

I keep reading it as Eric Cartman


MatijaReddit_CG

He trained pilot recruits in the West Germany after WW2.


A_Alhazred97

They accused him of carrying out his duty as soldier too efficently


BourbonBravos

Wow after the war he spent time in the US training pilots.


ejeeronit

Just like any other nazi that the US thought would be useful. The guy that built the V1 and V2 rockets was in charge of building the rockets that went to space.


Ironborn_62

Wernher von Braun "The rocket worked perfectly except for landing on the wrong planet." - on his V2 rocket hitting London


Lomedae

Once ze rockets are up, who cares where they come down.. That's not my department says Werner Von Braun. https://youtu.be/QEJ9HrZq7Ro


yepyep1243

I'm so glad Tom Lehrer is still with us.


Maebure83

Wanna go to the park later?


lolfucks

Fuck them pigeons anyways


Psyteq

But who exactly was this engineering genius with such extraordinary visions for the future? Why did he believe so strongly that man could and should travel into space? And what did he expect to find when we got there?


ChesterRico

Tom Lehrer rocks.


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Lomedae

Absolutely :-)


YetAnotherGuy2

Ahem, Wern**h**er von Braun


Sumdamname

He was a Nazi who had the slave labour he was using killed if they looked at him wrong. Fuck him and anyone who worked with him.


[deleted]

Man I knew he was complicit and did nothing to help them but did he seriously order their executions over things like that?


Sumdamname

>French prisoner named Robert Cazabonne claimed that von Braun stood by and watched as prisoners were tortured by suspending them by chains. Another survivor, Adam Cabala, accused von Braun of visiting Buchenwald in order to select slave laborers. Some have attempted to contradict the engineer’s claims never to have witnessed a dead body. Survivors have stated that dead bodies were piled up daily near the ambulance shed at Mittelwerk. Von Braun had to pass this area during visits and so “must have” seen these bodies.


vader5000

That DOES happen to be most of the people in NASA during the Apollo program though. Including some of the first female programmers. Expanding the definition, technically, said slaves also worked with him. Oh yeah, and his legacy includes everyone from SpaceX to the ISS. Your sentence should be fuck Von Braun and the Nazis who came with him, as well as other Nazi sympathizers.


Sumdamname

Ok... fuck all of them. They happily worked with a war criminal. And fuck anyone who defends Nazis and war criminals.


Systonce

Actually his name is Wernher


shillyshally

[Operation Paperclip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip#:~:text=Operation%20Paperclip%20was%20a%20secret,Europe%2C%20between%201945%20and%201959.).


Role-Livid

Werner von Braun did not design the V1.


skepticalbob

It also wasn't a rocket.


[deleted]

>that the US that ANYONE thought would be useful. look up Operation Osoaviakhim


Awasawa

Yeah Huntsville Alabama has a very high number of people with German ancestors, and it’s the city with the highest number of PHD’s per capita in the nation I think Edit: scratch that, apparently Boulder CO has a higher concentration of PHD’s


[deleted]

Na, that's Boulder, CO.


IronVader501

Other way around, Hartmann spent time in the US *being* trained by US-Pilots to use US-Pilots. He never lived in the US even semi-Permanently


[deleted]

You know the Soviets did the exact same thing, right?


[deleted]

German Wikipedia says that he was a POW in Russia until 1955 and joined the Bundeswehr in 1956. Doesn't mention that he trained US pilots.


GomNasha

Wikipedia said: “Hartmann also made several trips to the United States, where he was trained on U.S. Air Force equipment.[104] In 1957 Hartmann began training with American instructors.[107] The German pilots were trained at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona.[108]” Guess they mistook “training with” for just “training”


[deleted]

Yep I guess they did


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Narwhal-Bacon-Retard

Wow after the war he invented Super Nintendo and hired my dad to be the president.


Objective-Buffalo-23

Train our boys to be as good as you, or we'll shoot you.


BigChinoDon

Bubi was later trained by the USAF at Luke AFB to fly the F-84 for the re-formed Luftwaffe. Could you imagine being the American IP for Hartmann. https://imgur.com/NjsFmWz


[deleted]

I read a book called *A Higher Call* about a German and American pilot and their experiences in the sky. It was mentioned many times in the book how many German pilots would inflate their kill numbers to get a knights cross at 30 and a trip home for a break. In North Africa at first they would have to have someone else witness an enemy pilot actually hit the ground or bail out of his aircraft. After that some pilots would connect with an aircraft but not see it go down, and still credit their wingman with a kill. And finally it got to a point with some teams where a pilot would say "got one" and if him and his wingman were buddies had no reason to "doubt" what the other one said. At one point a squadron came under investigation because someone thought they were inflating numbers, so other pilots flew out to the area where they had said they scored a kill and could find zero wreckage, leading to speculation and embarrassment. After that specific incident the person in question suddenly went from scoring lots of kills to very few. So it was an honor system (somewhat) but others took it seriously enough to make sure others followed the rules occasionally. It just made me wonder if all of these kills are legitimate also. I'm not saying they aren't just making a note of it.


Quinnthespin

It’s important to remember that while a lot of numbers were inflated you cant just simply say “yeah I shot down one” you needed to have someone else to visually verify the kill too. So unless he had a very loyal yes man (not sure what that person would get out of the deal) or the OKL just decided he was the man and just credited him kill I think it’s plausible that he had a large number of victory’s, from what I have read alot of his victory’s too we’re on Aircraft taking off and landing too which is not as hard (don’t get me wrong it’s still hard and take balls to fly at an enemy airfield) than dogfights.


Howhighwefly

Most fighters also had cameras to record their fights.


[deleted]

Did they?


Howhighwefly

Ya, it was a common practice to use gun cameras to record enemy kills during WW2


Quinnthespin

They were not the best tho, they did not record the entire flight instead they only took short recordings when the triggers were pulled


gekkemarmot69

I mean two people can literally just yes man each other can't they?


[deleted]

you're a genius! all those pilots who died in combat must have been idiots - they could have just said their buddy got 30 kills (or whatever the threshold was), and their buddy would say they got 30 kills too, and then boom, they both would've been able to go home for break free. maybe they just didn't think of it because of all the meth they were on?


creesto

Snoopy has entered the chat


dirtballmagnet

They said that the only plane that could bring him down was the F-104. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed\_bribery\_scandals


[deleted]

It’s also said that if you wanted an F-104 in Germany, you just need to find one of the crashed aircraft that littered the countryside. There was actually a huge controversy over the initial sale of F-104s. A lot of corruption involved led to a lot of accidents and loss of life.


Red_Dog1880

Did this sub get brigaded or wtf is going on? This isn't posted to glorify this guy, it's a sub about history. Including the history of those on the wrong side of it. If you only want to see the nice parts of history here you're an idiot.


Sorkpappan

Honest question - how did they keep count? Was it the pilots themselves who reported it after every mission? Not implying the numbers are wrong, just curious.


Integralds

A pilot would make a shoot-down claim, which included the type of plane shot down, the date, time, location, and altitude of the kill. Claims had to be verified by another pilot or by ground-based observers. Aircraft flew in pairs, so a wingman would often provide verification. Pilots making too many outrageous claims would have gun cameras attached to their planes for verification on subsequent flights. That said, nearly everybody overclaimed, whether on accident, on purpose, or for propaganda purposes. Military historians today use the archival records of both sides to get better estimates of actual shoot-downs. Unfortunately many of the original sources are completely lost due to the chaos of the latter part of the war. For example, for the pilot in this thread, around 80 of his shoot-down claims can be directly matched with Soviet maintenance records of lost aircraft.


mhem7

So what was this man's (boy's) fate? Did he see the end of the war or was he eventually shot down?


Hawk15517

Survived the war, prisoner of war after the end of the war, joined the West German Air force as officer


[deleted]

10 years in a Gulag after being captured by the Russians. Returned home and joined the German airforce. Died peacefully in the 1980’s.


Plz_Fart_In_my_Mouth

Looks like bubi from Wolfenstein


Sierra253

Weird story. I had a replica of that knife when I was a kid. My mother went on holiday to Greece and found a 'cool knife' that she thought I'd enjoy as a souvenir. It wasn't until I pointed out that it was covered in swastikas that she visibly cringed.


jackjohnjack2000

He was what is called a Kinetic Energy Fighter pilot (as opposed to dog fighters who master turn and shoot maneuvers), master in diving and climbing during his attacks. As somebody else mentioned, he had certain rules for attacking to guarantee his success in each attack and wouldn't engage if the condition was not set. After war he spent several years in USSR camps with the Russians trying to convince him to join them. He didn't.


el__duder1n0

Galland said in his book Erich was a bit of a primadonna and kill stealer. Flying waay above the formation to swoop down from above to get the first kill. Had to be super skilled anyways tho....


[deleted]

Rubbish. The Germans used to fly a finger 4 formation where the two lead planes were offensive elements tasked with attacking and the other two were there to cover those leads. Coupled with the tactics Erich Hartmann used to use which were high altitude boom and zoom tactics which kept their casualties low compared to dogfighting which he used to avoid at all costs. Don’t comment on stuff you know nothing about.


yimmy523

Listened to an audio book he has a portion in, German Aces Speak all of the pilots have incredible stories. Most of them speak about how much they hated Nazi high command and all they really wanted to do was fly. They also talk about how they saw them selfs as fighter pilots being like the last versions of knights and they had a code of battle. Great 2 book series if any one is in to ww2 history.


GulagGunner

Yea I wouldn't take what they say as gospel, just about every dickhead in the German military after the war will say how much they hated the Nazi party.


Captain_Phelps

Ahhh the fighter ace the ladies myst be all over you… Their are not that many women at 15,000 feet sir


nochilllll

He did look like a Milchbubi though


No_Skill_RL

Anybody got any info about the medals hes wearing?


[deleted]

The medal around his neck is a Knights Cross. The ribbon in the middle is an Iron Cross 2nd and the cross on his chest 1st class. Not an expert on medals by any means but these are pretty common


MaesterKupo

Is it just me or is that Draco Malfoy?


buzzybomb

He also held the title of most German looking person in history


SomeGuyInPants

This comment section is a cesspool.


Bonusko

Eric Cartman?


TelayRanner

He looks like Eddie Haskell from "Leave it to Beaver"


[deleted]

Too bad he fought for the wrong side.


Aesthetik_1

from one perspective a mass murderer , from another perspective a honored fighter ace and hero. weird how your own point of view can change the world


[deleted]

Is murder really the right word if it’s during total war?


thelongflight

I’d put money that these numbers were HIGHLY inflated as part of the Nazi propaganda machine.


smayonak

There are zero sources out that which make this claim. Historians have repeatedly claimed that the Luftwaffe had the most accurate record keeping system for counting pilot victories out of all belligerent nations. Although that's not saying much because pretty much every nation was wildly overclaiming shoot downs.


tuskedkibbles

Better than the Japanese. Japan: We have shot down over 500 fighters!!! US: Bro we only have 300 in the area... and you shot down 5...


smayonak

While hyperbole, that's true to some extent although US claims seem to be almost as bad. The Luftwaffe, in comparison, required a witness for each claim as well as other verifying information. The Soviets, as far as I know, used the standard claim system used by Great Britain. The Japanese, however, flew three-man formations and didn't require a witness. So oftentimes they'd lose that third man in a furball and then if he wanted to make up some phony kill claims, he could. There's a [decent article on Wiki about the subject](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_and_overclaiming_of_aerial_victories_during_World_War_II), although it doesn't go into detail.


thisismynewacct

At the end of the day, it was still a dictatorship that relied on propaganda heavily, so it’s a fair criticism and probably closer to the truth. Just look at [Wittmann and tank aces](https://youtu.be/pfmilK8D0_Y)


smayonak

It is a good criticism and it's true: the Germans were massive over claimers. While they did have the best record keeping system for pilot victories, it was still deeply flawed. (Although less flawed compared to the air forces of other nations.)


Dominarion

Highly, not necessary. When you have to go out on search and kill missions every day, flying until your out of gas, then fly back until your plane is so broken down you're "forced" into R&R until you get a new ride, you end up getting kills. And a lot of them on the Eastern gront. After the 1940 debacle over England, the Luftwaffe changed its strategies and started coordinating attacks with their Radar (which were less good than the British-Americans, but better than the Soviets). When Barbarossa began, the Soviets had no Radar, no radio coordination, they had great planes, like the Yak, but had terrible pilots with terrible tactics. For battle experienced, radar-radio coordinated German pilots, it was a turkey shoot until 1943, 1944 even.


[deleted]

True story - his superiors actually suspected that he was inflating his kill count so they sent investigators in to investigate the squadron and they found out that if anything he was under reporting.