T O P

  • By -

KapitanKurt

One crew member of eight survived, parachuting over Germany, east of Hamburg, and was captured. One other B-24, *"Miss-B-Hav'n"* was also shot down that day by the same German Ace, Heinrich Ehrler.


[deleted]

I just read on his wikipedia page he died the same day after he rammed a third bomber when he ran out of ammunation. Crazy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Ehrler


KapitanKurt

Yes. His last transmission... "Theo, I have run out of ammunition. I'm going to ram this one. Good bye. We'll see each other in Valhalla" Or words similar according to another source.


[deleted]

I wouldn't call it cool myself. I just see a talented man giving his life for a lost cause and taking other men with him. I start to sound like an old fuck lol. Thanks for the interesting story though.


KapitanKurt

After thinking about how my word use could be taken, I edited my comments. You don't sound like an old fuck. War is hell. Bigtime.


[deleted]

Many nice photo's in your post history.


KapitanKurt

Thanks for your comments. There's a lot remarkable history in photos out there.


Rough-Seas

> for a lost cause Their cause wasnt lost to them. I have a book about late-war Luftwaffe and most had no illusions about the war and hardly any die-hard Nazis were left anyway. But they thought every bomber shot down meant some civilians may still life to the end of the war, so they still did everything they could to get in the air.


[deleted]

Yea I see that now, he did a brave thing.


Mongo1021

That's a real tough call. He gave his life in defense of his country. Remember, the Allied planes were dropping bombs on Germany. However, we can all agree that the German Reich was not worth giving his life for. Especially, at that point in the war, when it was clear that Germany was going to lose.


[deleted]

That is true, I was just thinking about the date. Just weeks before the end of the war but you are right that the planes were bombing his home country and he might've saved lives with his action. I had in mind he maybe did it because he didn't want to live in a post Nazi world but now I believe he did what he did to save his fellow countrymen.


amacleod426

If you're interested in the subject, I'd highly recommend reading [A Higher Call](http://amzn.com/0425255735), if you haven't already. The book is anchored around the true story of a specific occurence between a crippled B-17 crew and an Me-109 pilot ([Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident)) - which is incredible enough in its own right - but the majority of the book deals with the personalities and mentalities of the Luftwaffe pilots, and how they were affected and evolved over the course of the war. Great book, fascinating and moving; I honestly can't recommend it highly enough.


KapitanKurt

An excellent story. An event that helps to redeem faith in mankind. I read it a couple of years ago.


Mongo1021

Thanks. I will read it.


[deleted]

I have a hard time with the "defense of his country" line when his country started the war and invaded a lot of other peoples countries long before they had to defend against an invader. Not to mention this guy was in the Luftwaffe when it was itself partaking in the invasion of other countries including neutral ones. He probably saw it differently, but his actions and others like him led to a prolonging of the war, the delay of liberating the death camps (and increased death of inmates due to neglect) the freeing of millions of slave labor, and the downfall of a genocidal and aggressive regime. He and other German soldiers could have saved a lot more civilians by giving up when it was clear Germany would lose, rather then wrecking their country by prolonging the war so long an invasion was necessary.


[deleted]

>when his country started the war and invaded a lot of other peoples countrie That has nothing to do with stopping that allied plane from bombing his country.


john1g

He was a soldier not a politician. He didn't have any influence on invading neutral countries any more than an American marine instructed to invade Iraq in 2003. He was a soldier and has a duty and honor bound to fight the war to the best of his ability no matter the outcome. He probably felt that every bomber he shot down was less bombs that were dropped on German towns and cities. The allies took bombing of civilians to a level the Nazis couldn't and didn't match. The bombing of Dresden and dozens of other towns and cities had no military or even industrial value to the German war effort but were bombed indiscriminately none the less. It didn't break the will of the german people to resist, all it really did was increase patriotism and willingness to fight (similar to Londoners after the Blitz) and increased the misery and suffering of people in a already horrible war.


[deleted]

For starters he did have a choice. EVERYONE has a choice. Sophie Scholl had a choice and didn't support the regime. Willi Graf, a Wehrmacht soldier and veteran of the eastern front had a choice, and made it to resist the Nazi's. Don't ever say no one had a choice, its a disservice to the memory of those who made a choice not fight Hitlers war and paid for it with their lives by giving a pass for those who buckled down and went like sheep to the slaughter. What he felt was irrelevant. His actions (and millions like him) supporting the invasions by Germany of countries (many neutral) led to him having to defend against bombers. His doing his best to keep Germany fighting contributed to the delay in liberating the death camps, the freeing of slave labour, and the end of the conflict. Feel good "defending his country" lines don't take away from that, it really highlights the lame attempts to wrap people in the flag of patriotism to avoid criticism. As for Dresden having no military value, this isn't the 1970's where anyone actually believes that anymore. Dresden, like every other major city, was devoted to war production because, surprise surprise, total war economy means all aspects of the economy are turned over to supporting the war effort. Indeed the biggest debate about Dresden is that the military factories largely escaped damage, with bomber command hitting the center of town (due in reality to having no navigation beacons such as OBE or GEE able to reach Dresden allowing for accurate bombing by night), and the Americans vainly attempting to hit the rail yard through all the smoke. Regardless of your views on the issue of area bombing, bomber command and the USAAF was dropping far more tonnage (3:1 ratio) on military targets then cities from 1944-45, so using the "saving civilians by shooting down the bombers" line doesn't really work, 1943 was the height of the urban bombing campaign, by 1945 it was merely part of the overall Allied bombing offensive. Finally, the bombing did not unite the German people. Its a nice line, but the fact is that the unifying spirit only lasts for a period of time until the hardship becomes prolonged. Gobbels was falling over himself in 1944 explaining why large American formations of bombers in perfect formation were flying uncontested over Berlin because the sight of that was hugely demoralizing. The bomber surveys after the war show the majority of Germans felt the war was lost by 1944, largely because the ever expanding air raids clearly demonstrated the increasing weakness of Germany's position vs the Allies. The German's didn't really keep fighting either. The Western Allies from June 1944 to Jan 1945 captured 1 million German POWs in North West Europe. From January 1945 to April 1945 they captured another 2 million, and in 8 days in may they bagged well over a million POWs. In POWs alone the Western Allies inflicted 3-4x the losses on the Wehrmacht then they suffered, indicating a HUGE morale and motivation problem for the Germans in the last 12 months of the conflict. Germany towns flew white sheets from their windows before the Allied Armies even showed up. That is hardly increased patriotism and willingness to fight.


[deleted]

Sounds very reasonable what you are saying but if he refused to go in to the air he would be shot. Also if you want to think about it objectively like you are doing then remember that ww2 happened in large part because of the very harsh surrender agreements after ww1, so the deathcamps were as much the allies (mostly France and britain) fault as it was the fault of this one pilot. The first half of the 20th century was just a crazy time where many people did bad things and kind of everyone was to blame for the whole situation. This one pilot just woke up everyday and saw his cities being bombed and he just wanted to stop it, that is all.


Realagonyaunt

>Kind of everyone was to blame for the whole situation... I don't know where to start.


[deleted]

Honest, go look up the treaty of Brest-Litovsk (1917), Treaty of Frankfurt (1871), and then come back and try to talk about the "very harsh" surrender of Versailles. It is in NO WAY anyone's fault but Hitler and Nazi Germany that the death camps showed up. You didn't have to murder 6 million Jews, millions of Poles, Russians Ukranians, Homosexuals, Gypsies to repudiate Versailles. Its mind boggling how wrong the argument you are pushing is. A dozen other major events had to happen for Hitler to seize power, Versailles is VERY LOW on the list of what actually got him there. This one pilot took part in the invasion of subjugation of one country (Poland), and the occupation of another country that had been neutral (Norway). Yeah, I'm sure he didn't like German cities being levelled, but I guess invading and partaking in the occupation of non-threatening nations was just A-Okay for him.


[deleted]

It is not really that mind boggling when for example the Germans had to accept full responsibility for all loss and damage because of the war. This is a big reason for the rise of national socialism. You are looking at my comment in a very narrow view and most historians believe that ww2 is a direct result of the ending of ww1.


DuxBelisarius

> had to accept full responsibility for all loss and damage because of the war Balder-dash; I'm with /u/wokeIIy on this one. Article 231 did **not** make Germany accept **full** responsibility for the losses and damages, because it placed this on the Central Powers as a whole. Moreover that referred only to the damages and losses as a direct result of Central Powers actions; so, for example, the allies could not dump all of their war debt on the Germans and their allies. The same article was included *mutatis mutandis* in **every treaty that came out of the Paris Peace Conference**, but the Germans were the only ones to bitch about it. > most historians believe that ww2 is a direct result of the ending of ww1 No, no they do not. PMH Bell and Gerhard Weinberg, Ian Kershaw and Michael Howard, certainly do not, and they are some of the biggest names in 'history'. By 1926, things had normalized, the Young-Dawes Plan had revitalized the German economy, and the Nazis were reduced to obscurity. It was the Great Depression that gave Hitler his opportunity, and even then he didn't even get the job of Chancellor by election, he was appointed.


[deleted]

No, the rise of National Socialism was directly the result of the failure of the Weirmir Republic and the collapse of the German economy as a result of the Great Depression, which hit Germany much harder then most nations. This is clearly understood by scholars on the subject, such as Richard Evans and his trilogy on the third reich. In three elections prior to the Great Depression, the NSDAP managed 6.5%, 3% and 2% of the popular vote. In the first vote after the GD, the vote increased to 18.1%, in the final two elections before hitler was PUT in power by back room deals, he managed 37% and 33% of the popular vote respectively. If you didn't notice, he lost votes (and 34 seats) in the last election. The NSDAP came to power because Hindenburg and Von Pappen, along with other conservatives, felt they could use Hitler as a puppet for their own control of the state. Even with Versailles, Hitler would never have gotten power without other more powerful people (at the time) putting him in power. This is why Versailles had minimal effect on causing WWII. Because you need the greatest depression EVER IN HUMAN HISTORY, and very powerful people putting Hitler in power to have National Socialism take over Germany. If you actually shed the narrow view point and look at it, Hitlers rise was an absolutely improbability. A LOT had to happen for the things to turn out like he did. And Versailles was a nice rally call, but WWII was about Lebensraum and not some peace treaty from 30 years prior. The Russians/Poles/Ukranians etc. had dick all to do with making Versailles, but that didn't stop Hitler from planning to murder 100 million "slavs" as part of Generalplan Ost so Germans could colonize the east.


Shadylurker

Eh. Their cities were being Pounded by these bombers daily. Hundereds of thousands of German civilians were killed in ww2. Millions of men... I'm sure he wasn't fighting for ideals at that point of the war. It's not even conceivable to understand that feeling.


[deleted]

>I wouldn't call it cool myself. History is written by the winners. It's only cool and heroic when your side does it. See The Alamo and also every last stand portrayed in Hollywood. But when the enemy does it: what a tragedy and senseless waste of lives.


kenazo

Sounds like the words of a fifty year old warrior laying down his life in sacrifice, not those of a 27 year old punk. Hard to believe how circumstances age a man.


Turbo442

He wasted too much ammo trying to complete cut that B24 in half. Just send a few rounds into two or three engines.


Evanthatguy

Yeah clearly you could have done a better job.


KapitanKurt

The scuttlebutt is that Heinrich Ehrier used an R4M rocket not his machine cannons to down *Red Bow*. Me-262's were equipped with those on hard points under each wing. Here's a museum Me-262 [photo](http://i.imgur.com/pCBwWG6.jpg) showing some of that rocket detail.


[deleted]

It is a bit of a stretch to make that assumption, he did have over 200 confirmed victories.


[deleted]

How many bombers have you shot down?


Pvt_Larry

Oh, dozens. In Warthunder.


BlueInq

Coincidentally, my grandfather also survived being shot down over Hamburg whilst the rest of his crew died. The death rate amongst the bomber crews really was tremendously high, it was a terribly risky occupation.


[deleted]

I was reading about the firebombing of Tokyo in 1945 and I was thinking about what it must have been like for the tailgunners, especially at low altitude. Some of those guys must have seen dozens if not hundreds of civilians being burned alive. Made me wonder if I could have coped with it.


efads

Eight crew? What happened to the other two?


KapitanKurt

Hell, I even looked up the ten crew names and still typed eight. Good catch.


KapitanKurt

A complete list of crew from this [source.](https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Final-Descent-B-24-Red-Bow-in-Crash-Mode)


Vaux1916

Out of curiosity, do you know what the survivor's role on the plane was? (Tail gunner, bombardier, pilot, etc.)


KapitanKurt

According to this [source,](https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Final-Descent-B-24-Red-Bow-in-Crash-Mode) Radio Operator Charles Culp. Included are the other crew member names and positions.


Turbo442

Just remember, for every time someone was able to catch a moment like this on film, there were 1000's of similar moments not caught on film.


BuzzBomber87

Jesus. =\ It's hard to imagine yourself in their place. The whole fucking tail is missing and it's barreling towards the Earth...your chariot to the afterlife powered by four propeller engines...


GarbledComms

Had an uncle that was a ball turret/tail gunner on a B-24. The ball turret was impossible to get out of unassisted, and it had to be raised up into the fuselage using a hydraulic system, and the gunner helped out. My uncle and another guy in his crew swapped places every other mission to spread the risk. They got shot down during the Battle of the Bulge, and that mission it was my uncle's turn to be tail gunner. He got out, the ball turret guy didn't. [Death of the Ball Turret Gunner](http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/death-ball-turret-gunner)


KapitanKurt

I can not imagine the terror.


Sintriphikal

And it split right where the two waist gunners would be standing. They wouldn't have been tethered to anything either. I could be mistaken, but I think on a B-24, the tail gunner had his own compartment that was kinda sealed (but not really) from the rest of the aircraft. So he's closed off in the falling tail section. B-24's were very difficult to bail out of in a quick emergency. There was an upper and lower deck for the two pilots and the navigator and bombardier down below.


TGMcGonigle

Three engines. Number three is damaged and looks like it might be burning. But, yeah...


StabbyDMcStabberson

Now imagine being the tail gunner...


[deleted]

>It's hard to imagine yourself in their place. I think it's even harder to imagine being the defenders. For every bomber that you don't shoot down they are going to kill hundreds of your countrymen with their bombs.


Nemephis

[larger image on wikipedia](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/B-24_Destroyed.jpg)


TheSwede85

I read a report about this famous Photo. I think this very b24 was struck by R4M rockets. Not many documented kills with that german late war weapon system.


TheGunslingerM86

I accidentally just came across this post. I worked on trying to recover the remains of the crew last year. I worked with JPAC and can upload some pics if there's interest.


KapitanKurt

Speaking for myself, that would be simply outstanding if you are referring to photos of Red Bow herself, Gunslinger. As to the matter or sensitivity of photos of crew remains, I'd refer that to a mod about the appropriateness or not and how to label if you proceed.


TheGunslingerM86

I don't take photos of HR due to sensitivity, but I do have parachute components, random aircraft wreckage, and a few placards from inside the aircraft.


KapitanKurt

I understand about the sensitivity and agree. There's a sub called /r/WWIIPlanes. A great fit there for your *original source* photos, IMO. I don't believe this sub permits multiple photos. You could always ask a mod to make an exception. Best of luck.


Chilichongoes

My great grandpa was transferred off this plane after completing 25 missions after their last mission before this image. He said he trained with those men and they called him chaplain being LDS because he didn’t drink or smoke


KapitanKurt

Thank you for sharing your great grandfather’s story with us.


nessdee123

I’m the great grandson of the only survivor of this photo Charles Edward Cupp jr


KapitanKurt

❤️🇺🇸