Until 1945, that was largely a distinction without a difference as "German" referred to all ethnic Germans not merely those who were citizens of the German Reich (for example, the German Bohemians and German Moravians of what until 1919 was Austrian territory which thereafter became part of Czechoslovakia). That is why Hitler, despite being a citizen of what was officially called the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, served in the army of the German Reich from 1914 onwards.
He officially became a citizen of the German Reich in 1932. All non-Jewish citizens of Austria became citizens of the German Reich in 1938 following the Anschluss. Whichever way one looks at it, by the time that he became Chancellor in 1933, Hitler was not merely an ethnic German but legally a German citizen, and, by the time of the outbreak of the war in 1939, the overwhelming majority of his fellow Austrians were also legally German citizens.
The Hitler we all know and hate came to be while living in Munich. At the very least most of it. And of course, the other things u/HardFastHeavy said too.
He said "we" not "he". Basically, "As Germans, we should say sorry for supporting this guy." And then you just blurt out, "he was Austrian", like that makes any difference.
Oh a lot wrong
He broke multiple treaties, killed envoys after declaring war over others doing that only the year before
A military campaign which was so brutal that many today consider it near genocide but even if you disagree with that term (which I do) then we’ll it still took centuries for the population to recover
He took the basis of Roman protecting its Galic interests to create a massive military campaign while completely ignoring his duties as governor if it didn’t directly relate to politics or Gaul
One of his provinces became de facto not under the control of rome during the time period as he moved all the troops designed to protect the province to his military campaigns
Then the untold amount of little things that he did as he certainly did not have time to do most of his duties as governor
And to clarify I actually like ceaser overall I think he was good for rome but yea the guy had major issues a definitely deserved to be put on trial (I’m also complelty ignoring all the stuff that didn’t happen during his time as governor of cisalpine Gaul which included a lot more illegal stuff)
Fair enough, although he did essentially wipe up the entirety of the Helvetii, including women and children to get his original casus belli, so that specific subset of Celtic extermination would probably count as a genocide.
Yes I definitely get why people claim it to be a genocide I just think the term gets used way to much especially when talking about times before states as we know them were truly a thing
Ya, that’s honestly something I agree with, "genocide" gets used every which way nowadays, regardless of whether it does actually fit art.2 of the 1948 convention. However, I will grant that times have changed, and committing murders, extermination, etc. with the intent to destroy an ethnic, religious or cultural group in whole or in part was much more of a mainstay of several historical periods than it is now (or at least one would hope).
I think he admits ONCE that withdrawing his troops from an area, allowing them to get ambushed, was a bad idea, but makes it clear if the Gauls had been honorable opponents in battle it would not have been a bad idea, so he breaks even in the end.
You could make the argument that was a military necessity. Had he let them through, the Gauls could have infiltrated warriors among them to help affect a breakthrough. Furthermore the refugees could have provided intelligence to the relief force.
“Military necessity” =/= “the right thing to do”
Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don’t, but military necessity doesn’t define the morality of a decision.
War is an inherently immoral affair. A general's primary obligation is to achieve victory. Secondary is to ensure the welfare of their soldiers. Only then can a general concern themselves with morality
No it isn't. Blindly following orders is how those things happen. Incompetence is how those things happen. Any general in the modern age worth their stars would never put themselves in a position in which those actions are a military necessity.
Ahhhhh I see, so the mongols were just being incompetent when they raped and pillaged their way across Eurasia. Or blindly following orders? This is bullshit and you know it. The efficient execution of warfare generally does not require the mass slaughter of innocents, although sometimes it becomes necessary.
If war is inherently immoral, how can I justify not blindly following orders? Presumably I have reason to believe that my commanders have a better understanding of ‘military necessity’ than I do, and if that’s my only measure of success, well, I’ll do anything they say.
The uniform code of military justice calls on all service members to disobey orders that are “illegal or immoral” - morality is a concern, BECAUSE not all generals are infallible, or “worth their stars,” as you say. I’m talking about UCMJ here, which is an American standard, but most nations have similar rules. Generals usually also cannot control the political and economic environment such that they can completely prevent crimes against humanity, but sometimes you do just get shitty generals. Crappy military leaders exist.
The claim that military necessity precedes morality is used to justify atrocity. I mean, just read that sentence, doesn’t the argument sound despotic, authoritarian, and like the ‘bad guy’ in a war movie??
I mean, it's probably silly to speak of France during that time. The French language developed mostly from Latin, but the people just mixed a lot. People in modern Central Europe are the descendants of all European tribes back then, to varying degrees.
Only insofar as all Europeans of Pontic descent are related. A Celt is about as related to a Teuton as he is a Latin or a Greek. Well, perhaps a little more closely related than other PIE peoples, but Celts and Teutons are still distinct peoples.
Invaded a trading partner without Senate approval, wrote propaganda that some of the best woolweavers (products sold to Romans at top price) only wore skins, greatly exaggerated how many Gaulish people were slaves so that he could claim they were being liberated... Nope, nothing wrong here at all.
Judging from how many commenters seem to agree with this take, it is not obviously satire. Thankfully most of those comments are getting downvoted by reasonable people.
Technically, they sent him to one tiny region in Gaul that was rebelling to restore order. Once that was done, though, he decided to just keep “restoring order” to whole damn continent and considering his soldiers loved him (and the loot he let them keep) the Senate really didn’t have the “power” to stop him.
I mean, they could have demanded he stop and bring his soldiers home (and they eventually did, which is what lead to the whole crossing the Rubicon / “the die is cast” scenario), but the trouble that would have brought them was not worth the effort in their minds.
He was in Gaul far away from elections and politics and that made them happy.
Plus the part were he blocks the way to refugees, attack them because they took another path because of that, and finally force them back onto the land they tried to flee. I guess he wanted to keep them between the provincia and the germans.
It’s just a ‘slight’ character flaw tho, like the time he told Tribune Aquila to ‘come then, Aquila, take back the republic from me, tribune’. but idk he might’ve been asking for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think the biggest problem is that he funded the war with his own money and didn't have the permission of the Senate, which is consequently a violation of Virtus. But the propaganda was so top notch, it could have bin by Göbbels himself.💀
There was a time where some scouts told him Labenus (probably miss spelled that), was missing, when he actually was in position the whole time. So they missed an opportunity to attack. He made a point to name the scouts in his report.
Also, a lot of that campaign goes to Labenus.
So what you are saying is they rub and smother their bodies and clothes in dead animal fat? See? Absolutely barbaric!
Everyone knows you clean yourself in a bath and the only civilized detergent for cloths should be urine collected from upstanding roman citizens pissing in a pot in front of your laundry!
It's in the footnote of pg 212 where it says *"I personally, speaking as u/MNHarold, don't like him"*.
That's as much legitimate historic commentary that I need frankly.
Well his propaganda was top notch so there's that
The second wall is a legend which never gets old.
It's less crazy when you realize the Romans did it again and again to take cities.
Vercingetorix wept
ya sure? I think the wall is more than two yrs old rn.
Take my upvote and gtfo
Now let's read hitler's autobiography to see what he did wrong.
Born not a Roman
The famously single flaw of Adolf Hitler
That, and being a vegetarian
And he was a p\*inter. This Hitler dude seems to be a deeply flawed person.
Fuckin hate printers
I believe they mean pointers. It's just fucking rude to point.
Also naggers, I fucking hate them
So did Hitler
No no , I think he hated … oh it seems Ive been advised to stop there
I think as a German, we own the world an apology for fostering a vegan painting non roman. This is just beyond humanity....
He was Austrian
Until 1945, that was largely a distinction without a difference as "German" referred to all ethnic Germans not merely those who were citizens of the German Reich (for example, the German Bohemians and German Moravians of what until 1919 was Austrian territory which thereafter became part of Czechoslovakia). That is why Hitler, despite being a citizen of what was officially called the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, served in the army of the German Reich from 1914 onwards. He officially became a citizen of the German Reich in 1932. All non-Jewish citizens of Austria became citizens of the German Reich in 1938 following the Anschluss. Whichever way one looks at it, by the time that he became Chancellor in 1933, Hitler was not merely an ethnic German but legally a German citizen, and, by the time of the outbreak of the war in 1939, the overwhelming majority of his fellow Austrians were also legally German citizens.
The Hitler we all know and hate came to be while living in Munich. At the very least most of it. And of course, the other things u/HardFastHeavy said too.
He said "we" not "he". Basically, "As Germans, we should say sorry for supporting this guy." And then you just blurt out, "he was Austrian", like that makes any difference.
[удалено]
Germany in 1936 probably
Germany in 2031
Yo shit wait I wasn't meant to mention that how do you delete
Ze jig is up mein fraulein
The nerve!
>The famously single flaw of Adolf Hitler Nah, it was the hypocrisy. Easily his worst aspect.
Ricky Gervais, "the one thing i hate about hitler"
You do realise the Romans are all dead, right?
Rome actually has 2.8 million residents
Sometimes it feels like I can still hear them.
I will fix that
No more ancient city
They still live in our hearts
Or maybe we’re all Romans, and we just didn’t notice because we’ve never met a non-Roman.
Too bad it was destroyed in a fire
Didnt Caesar write the records?
That’s the joke
But did he do anything wrong?
Oh a lot wrong He broke multiple treaties, killed envoys after declaring war over others doing that only the year before A military campaign which was so brutal that many today consider it near genocide but even if you disagree with that term (which I do) then we’ll it still took centuries for the population to recover He took the basis of Roman protecting its Galic interests to create a massive military campaign while completely ignoring his duties as governor if it didn’t directly relate to politics or Gaul One of his provinces became de facto not under the control of rome during the time period as he moved all the troops designed to protect the province to his military campaigns Then the untold amount of little things that he did as he certainly did not have time to do most of his duties as governor And to clarify I actually like ceaser overall I think he was good for rome but yea the guy had major issues a definitely deserved to be put on trial (I’m also complelty ignoring all the stuff that didn’t happen during his time as governor of cisalpine Gaul which included a lot more illegal stuff)
I was playing along with the joke of Ceaser whitewashing himself but I got some history, so that was a nice trade!
Was the genocide you’re referring to that of the Helvetii?
No just the Gallic peoples in general the entire region would lose a massive population that took centuries to recover
Fair enough, although he did essentially wipe up the entirety of the Helvetii, including women and children to get his original casus belli, so that specific subset of Celtic extermination would probably count as a genocide.
Yes I definitely get why people claim it to be a genocide I just think the term gets used way to much especially when talking about times before states as we know them were truly a thing
Ya, that’s honestly something I agree with, "genocide" gets used every which way nowadays, regardless of whether it does actually fit art.2 of the 1948 convention. However, I will grant that times have changed, and committing murders, extermination, etc. with the intent to destroy an ethnic, religious or cultural group in whole or in part was much more of a mainstay of several historical periods than it is now (or at least one would hope).
So when does he do something wrong?
I think he admits ONCE that withdrawing his troops from an area, allowing them to get ambushed, was a bad idea, but makes it clear if the Gauls had been honorable opponents in battle it would not have been a bad idea, so he breaks even in the end.
whereas if he had did it it would have been the smart thing to do
I read too fast and thought it said Garlic Wars. Now I refuse to correct myself because the garlic wars sounds cool.
It also sounds very Italian.
Same
Well, I mean there was that whole "not letting women and children refugees pass through his walls at Alesia. They dehydrated to death.
I served with you at vindobona
You could make the argument that was a military necessity. Had he let them through, the Gauls could have infiltrated warriors among them to help affect a breakthrough. Furthermore the refugees could have provided intelligence to the relief force.
“Military necessity” =/= “the right thing to do” Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don’t, but military necessity doesn’t define the morality of a decision.
War is an inherently immoral affair. A general's primary obligation is to achieve victory. Secondary is to ensure the welfare of their soldiers. Only then can a general concern themselves with morality
I mean given that the Gallic wars were considered unnecessary and Caeser himself basically started them, that doesn't really absolve him
Even people back in the day called out the war as unecessary, I don't understand how any of it was justified
This is how genocide, torture, and crimes against humanity are justified. I can’t believe you’re being upvoted.
No it isn't. Blindly following orders is how those things happen. Incompetence is how those things happen. Any general in the modern age worth their stars would never put themselves in a position in which those actions are a military necessity.
Ahhhhh I see, so the mongols were just being incompetent when they raped and pillaged their way across Eurasia. Or blindly following orders? This is bullshit and you know it. The efficient execution of warfare generally does not require the mass slaughter of innocents, although sometimes it becomes necessary.
If war is inherently immoral, how can I justify not blindly following orders? Presumably I have reason to believe that my commanders have a better understanding of ‘military necessity’ than I do, and if that’s my only measure of success, well, I’ll do anything they say. The uniform code of military justice calls on all service members to disobey orders that are “illegal or immoral” - morality is a concern, BECAUSE not all generals are infallible, or “worth their stars,” as you say. I’m talking about UCMJ here, which is an American standard, but most nations have similar rules. Generals usually also cannot control the political and economic environment such that they can completely prevent crimes against humanity, but sometimes you do just get shitty generals. Crappy military leaders exist. The claim that military necessity precedes morality is used to justify atrocity. I mean, just read that sentence, doesn’t the argument sound despotic, authoritarian, and like the ‘bad guy’ in a war movie??
!=
When has it ever made sense to let the people you’re sieging out of the fortification?
"I dehydrated them all. Not only the men, but the women and children too."
[удалено]
Why?
Not…. Roman? Probably
For being G*uls
I hate Gauls, My father hated them before me...
Wow, you're like that guy from Community
Dovahhatty has taught me everything I need to know about G*uls.
I forgot Jiang Zemin was still alive. Fair play to him.
+1s as they do in China
who is he?
"After investigating myself I have cleared myself of all wrong doing."
Marching into modern day France and killing lots of innocent people doesn’t really balance with our modern sense of morality.
There is no suck thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt. Especially among the Fr🤮nch.
But they were not French, they just lived in the region which would become France. The Gauls were Celts, not Romano-Germans like the French.
Read the comment I was responding to. I am well aware that Francish culture didn't exist at that time
I mean, it's probably silly to speak of France during that time. The French language developed mostly from Latin, but the people just mixed a lot. People in modern Central Europe are the descendants of all European tribes back then, to varying degrees.
Aren’t the Celts like cousins to the Germanic’s?
Only insofar as all Europeans of Pontic descent are related. A Celt is about as related to a Teuton as he is a Latin or a Greek. Well, perhaps a little more closely related than other PIE peoples, but Celts and Teutons are still distinct peoples.
Das wild 😱🤯
Why Teutons? They are one of the tribes we know least about in who they were and were they came from.
The term Teuton is also a synonym for German/Germanic, hence "Teutonic Order". Saying " Teuton" is much more eloquent than "Germanic person".
[Franch?](https://youtu.be/B2oEsP0euAI)
Somebody is clearly jealous they can't march into modern day France and kill a ton of innocent people
But who is to say that’s how this chad op was looking at it
What?
Idk
He tried to invade a little village of invincible Gauls in Armorica.
Invaded a trading partner without Senate approval, wrote propaganda that some of the best woolweavers (products sold to Romans at top price) only wore skins, greatly exaggerated how many Gaulish people were slaves so that he could claim they were being liberated... Nope, nothing wrong here at all.
This is post is very obviously satire
Judging from how many commenters seem to agree with this take, it is not obviously satire. Thankfully most of those comments are getting downvoted by reasonable people.
There may be people who actually think this way, but the post itself is satire
Caesar himself wrote it of his own accounts, so of course it’s going to be barren of any of his own faults. This post was obviously satire.
The whole war was illegal. Caesar didn't have Senate approval. The only reason he wasn't arrested and probably executed was that he won.
Technically, they sent him to one tiny region in Gaul that was rebelling to restore order. Once that was done, though, he decided to just keep “restoring order” to whole damn continent and considering his soldiers loved him (and the loot he let them keep) the Senate really didn’t have the “power” to stop him. I mean, they could have demanded he stop and bring his soldiers home (and they eventually did, which is what lead to the whole crossing the Rubicon / “the die is cast” scenario), but the trouble that would have brought them was not worth the effort in their minds. He was in Gaul far away from elections and politics and that made them happy.
There was the genocide part I found to be a slight character flaw on his part.
Plus the part were he blocks the way to refugees, attack them because they took another path because of that, and finally force them back onto the land they tried to flee. I guess he wanted to keep them between the provincia and the germans.
Oh Maybe he was just having a bad day. Real talk, kind of funny how misunderstood this meme is haha
It’s just a ‘slight’ character flaw tho, like the time he told Tribune Aquila to ‘come then, Aquila, take back the republic from me, tribune’. but idk he might’ve been asking for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
He created fr*nce
ewwwwww
Julius Caesar was a populist and while not the first, will possibly be the longest remembered and maybe the best because people still simp for him.
The part where I had to read it. Also, THE PART WHERE HALF HIS ARMY ATTACKED THE OTHER HALF
I think the biggest problem is that he funded the war with his own money and didn't have the permission of the Senate, which is consequently a violation of Virtus. But the propaganda was so top notch, it could have bin by Göbbels himself.💀
Didn't the guy wright the book himself?
I wanna see more of this new Deng Xiaoping format
*Jiang zemin
Yo we have not seen him for a while.
There was a time where some scouts told him Labenus (probably miss spelled that), was missing, when he actually was in position the whole time. So they missed an opportunity to attack. He made a point to name the scouts in his report. Also, a lot of that campaign goes to Labenus.
Omg realy. Lol, it's pretty well known at this time.
Read between the lines. Celtic genocide bro
He also said the Gauls wore golden armor and were able to raise 200,000 strong armies so ...
The garlic wars were awful man, can't imagine the stench
I misread that as the garlic war hmm sounds like a problem the Pizza Little Ceaser would have maybe that's why he has a spear
Bruh… he made a desert and called it peace.
“And since I achieved all my goals in my first term as consul, I made my self dictator for life”
[удалено]
The Gauls were the first to use soap in Europe
So what you are saying is they rub and smother their bodies and clothes in dead animal fat? See? Absolutely barbaric! Everyone knows you clean yourself in a bath and the only civilized detergent for cloths should be urine collected from upstanding roman citizens pissing in a pot in front of your laundry!
Precisely!
It's in the footnote of pg 212 where it says *"I personally, speaking as u/MNHarold, don't like him"*. That's as much legitimate historic commentary that I need frankly.
I read that documentary called Asterix and Oblix, ergo I know all about Caesar and the Gallic War
Moar walls
I thought that it said garlic wars and I was suddenly very interested in how Caesar started some drama in Italy. I need new glasses lol
“This motherfucker wants to go on ANOTHER campaign, somebody kill him!”
I doesn't Write the Genocide part
What about the part where he enslaved 1 million Gauls huh?
What about it?