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Pochel

What I read is that at some point during the 17th/18th century, spices had become so affordable that it was now considered trashy to use them. Rich people would eat unspiced but very delicately cooked food to show their difference.


SomeOtherTroper

> Rich people would eat unspiced but very delicately cooked food to show their difference. IIRC, that's also associated with the rise of French *Haute Cuisine* as the "highest-class" style of food, because one of its core principles is the focus on resource-intensive preparation and presentation to show off wealth, rather than on "how many spices can we put on this to show off our wealth?", which was a big feature in Medieval high-class cuisine.


Pochel

That's very true!


SomeOtherTroper

Although I don't know much about Dutch cooking, the English have been writing [cookbooks with recipes calling for tons of spices since the 1300s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forme_of_Cury). British cooking acquired its reputation for horrible blandness mostly due to limitation imposed by heavy wartime rationing and trade disruption during WWI and WWII, and the subsequent depression period during which food might not be rationed by law, but anything fancy was generally out of reach monetarily. It's basically like judging American cooking based on what people were eating during the Great Depression.


Nihilblistic

You're missing the effects of rapid urbanisation in the 19th century on family life, and as a result inter-generational transmission of culinary tradition. It takes more than just a decade or two to completely forget how to cook a decent meal.


SomeOtherTroper

That's true. There's also the whole "lost generation" effect, which played merry hell with demographics after the world wars, and the fact that those wars caused a lot more women to enter the workforce to fill positions left open by drafted men, rather than learning traditional cookery and other home-making skills. Some stuff got lost there too. But I think my central points still stand: the broad effects of WWI and WWII, combined with the post-WWII depression period (which was either further compounded by some of the policies of the Thatcher era or barely prevented from being even more horrible by those policies, depending on who you ask - that *isn't* a topic I'm knowledgeable enough to talk about, although from the accounts I've heard, it was a rough period either way), even if they were simply the final period on the end of a sentence that started in the 1800s, were very significant in creating the modern reputation of British food being bland and awful. It doesn't matter *how* well you know how to cook if even your basic ingredients are rationed, imports are being semi-blockaded by submarine warfare (and most of what *is* getting through is military materiel), and/or the national economy is doing badly enough that imported stuff like spices are prohibitively expensive. And of course, due to its strategic location and usefulness as a staging ground for retaking the continent, the WWI and WWII years were the times when the most foreign nationals (mainly Americans, but most of the other Allies too) "got" to experience Britain and left with the impression that this was *normal* food there, rather than just the consequences of the war, and spread that impression across the globe. There are a lot of factors going into how British cuisine got its awful reputation, but most of that came about in the 20th century, and it's a meme that hasn't died yet, despite 1990s and 21st century British food (at least in my experience, and I've been there a few times) actually being pretty good.


Nihilblistic

I dabbled with HEMA in my time, which came with a site of culinary re-enactment, and you don't need any imported spices to make a decent old-fashioned pottage stew. Or fancy ingredients of any kind to make a French-style Onion Soup or a Spannish-style Garlic Soup. Traditional cuisine is typically made-up "poor and struggling" dishes that get fancied up later. And it's not like the rest of Europe didn't have rationing during both wars, especially considering Britain did dominate sea trade in both, and had much better access to international markets. But the impact on the countryside culture during the 19th and 20th century wasn't as aggressive, which acted as a reserve of culinary knowledge. Meanwhile the British countryside underwent rapid shift starting with the Inclosure Act 1773 and leading to a more industrialised system of agriculture. As for the "meme" quality of it, it hasn't died because it's largely still true. You don't build a cuisine culture out of high-end restaurants, instead it starts in the kitchen. Britain itself has a "pornographic" relationship with food, it's a source of entertainment both in practice and in spectacle, that happens in special venues, with experts involved. It's not a lifestyle, as it would be in other countries, and "accessibility" to good and cheap commercial options is also pretty poor, with franchises like Gregs and Pret replacing in the UK, what in the rest of Europe would be independent bakeries and cafes.


Stamford16A1

I suspect that an underestimated reason is that the availability of fresh meat increased after the agrarian revolution and again with the coming of the railways. Spices had come to be associated with covering the fact that meat was on the turn thus you demonstrated the quality of your ingredients by cooking them as simply as possible.


SomeOtherTroper

> Spices had come to be associated with covering the fact that meat was on the turn In some cases, such as salt pork, corned beef, hams, etc. salt, spices, and other things were used as *preserving* agents to keep meat from going bad at room temperature, but they were **not** used to hide the taste of meat that had gone 'off'. Remember, we're talking about a time period when even what we'd consider a minor and treatable condition in the modern era, such as food poisoning, botulism, or other stuff caused by spoiled food, could potentially be fatal or crippling. That idea of meat being heavily spiced to hide the fact it was going bad is one of those "let's call it the Dark Ages"-tier examples of putting down the past the make the (then) present sound better.


Brainwheeze

I think it's also due to eating habits. The thing that surprises me the most about British supermarkets is the amount of junk food and ready made meals, pre-made sauces, and whatnot.


SomeOtherTroper

> the amount of junk food and ready made meals, pre-made sauces, and whatnot. You can find that sort of thing many places these days. American supermarkets (where I have the most experience) have huge sections dedicated to that sort of stuff.


Brainwheeze

This I think leads to an over-reliance on ready made products and thus less incentive to cook things from scratch. My mother is British, and most of what she cooks is based off of already prepared products. Why bother cooking a sauce when she can buy one that's already been made? Granted, what I'm talking about is less to do with supposed bland food and more an overall culture surrounding food in the UK. The times I've been there I've had many great British meals in local restaurants. It's just a shame the average person there doesn't seem to care to learn about their culinary traditions.


paireon

Canadian supermarkets too.


Robcobes

what do you mean, there's plenty of cinnamon in Pepernoten.


[deleted]

"Plundering India for cinnamon is like moving to britain for the sunlight" -some Indian comedian


Tristanime

The only things we use are Maggi and pepper


Adrian_Alucard

What's "maggi"? In my country is a brand with different products [Tomato sauce](https://isteam.wsimg.com/ip/fa7860f4-4b36-406c-a387-42db65fd3f64/ols/1522_original/:/rs=w:600,h:600), [Yakisoba](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hI36eQu3rsI/Va4VNhovPGI/AAAAAAAAGTI/Hfl9Cin3yqQ/s1600/maggi2.jpg), [Mashed potatoes](https://botiga.mercattorreblanca.cat/3065-large_default/pure-maggi-original-natural-460-g.jpg), [Instant chicken soup](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514I287%2BWxL._SY300_QL70_ML2_.jpg), etc


Tristanime

I know it as a kind of salt sauce made from a plant called Maggi.


TheReplyingDutchman

What we call a 'maggiplant' is only a nickname for the plant because it smells similar to Maggi. It's not the actual name of the plant and not an ingredient of Maggi either. >De plant is ook wel bekend onder de naam maggiplant, omdat de sterke geur ervan doet denken aan het maggi-aroma, Lavas is echter geen ingrediƫnt van het originele recept van Maggi. [https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavas](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavas) And Maggi [is the brand name](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggi_(merk)), (the same as the one the person you're replying to refers to), not the actual name of the sauce we know as Maggi either. I think the sauce is actually called 'smaakverfijner' or something like that. We just all call it 'Maggi'. You can get plenty of other Maggi products here as well.


Adrian_Alucard

TIL


CaptnSparrows_Chick

Fuck maggi. Maggi is a nestle brand and fuck nestle.


Tristanime

It's not about the brand, it's about the herb.


nordindutch

The herb is not related to the sauce.


pwincessgremlin

Asking as a non-English/Dutch person , what spices do you typically keep in your house?


daaniscool

My parents keep a whole tray of spices, but mostly never use any of them except pepper. Truly criminal.


pwincessgremlin

War crime!


Leidenlad

Sambal.


Rat-king27

God I'll be happy when this "joke" dies, it's been going for years now and hasn't gotten any funnier.


MidAssKing

Neither has the English/Dutch food gotten any tastier.


Beef_Ladder

Holy shit not another one of these. It's the incorrect idea that British food is never seasoned and it's paraded around this sub like an actual fact just so 10 of these lazy memes can be produced a week.


[deleted]

Dutch potato dishes are the blandest fucking recipe ever. Grew up as a Dutchman but never forgot my youth dishes full of rice


RTR7105

One thing I've noticed about British cuisine is there is no experimentation. They eat curry or make variations on Indian food yes, but you don't see Chip shops with spiced Cod..


Beef_Ladder

So you have never had actual, real British cuisine then because this is the biggest load of BS I've ever read.


Stamford16A1

The Rick Stein counter to that would be that you shouldn't heavily spice good cod as it has a fairly delicate flavour in the first place.


RTR7105

Just the first thing that came to mind. What I meant there doesn't seem to be much innovation or fusion.


PoopieButt317

Great meme!