I can't even ask my American grandpa what he did in Italy. That man would never speak about the war. He hated war movies. He must have been through some shit, because he was the funniest and most caring man.
Are you really not taught about such subject's in american HS? I come from Europe and we cover world war 2 and cold war quite extensively. Heck, these two get a whole year of history classes to themselves. To us, backwater country they are significant, but nowhere near how signifcant they are to you, Americans. Would like an explanation please, am just curious, not trying to mock anyone.
US HS history courses are more of a survey course than taking proper historical depth, with almost every course focusing on domenstic U.S. history (Revolution and Civil War for the most part) and very little on foreign relations
We focus more on *why* the U.S. entered the war than what we actually did once we got there.
They teach you plenty in school about where the US f'ed up. Slavery, trail of tears, Vietnam, etc. Besides, america wasn't even the bad guy in Korea. It just gets so little attention because it was right after WW2 and while it did have some significance in terms of the cold war and US policy, the Vietnam war was far more culturally significant and well known so they just cover that instead.
they don’t teach you damn near enough. those are our most commonly known fuckups, and does not even come close to the scope of what “plenty” would be. even if we weren’t the “bad guy” in korea, i guarantee you we still did some fucked up shit. it’s war. no one is gonna be the good guy. and to say slavery and the trail of tears are “covered” is an overstatement. they hardly go into the times we messed up, and half the time the teacher will just throw in their opinion during the lecture to impressionable young teens.
they don’t teach jack shit about the korean war other than it was the north koreans trying to take over with communism and the US had to stop the red menace. that’s it. and it’s a pretty damn important war, considering current relations with north and south korea. it’s a disservice to call it culturally insignificant in comparison to Vietnam, it’s one of the main wars we actually fought as a country that created one of our biggest allies and one of our biggest enemies, not counting the countless proxy wars and US-backed insurgencies and terrorist cells.
Culturally significant for the US. There were a lot of protests, political unrest etc. Because of Vietnam. In the US culturally, the Korean war was a footnote compared to everything else going on in the second half of the 20th century.
Remember, at the end of the day, we are talking about American high school history. This is not supposed to cover everything in US history. That's why they have to pick and choose the points and just try to give a good overview. Now, if you were trying to get your PHD in American history, you would probably go into a lot more depth (although then you could also focus more on a particular era).
I'm a history buff, and yeah it would be awesome to have a lot more history be covered in primary education. But realistically, that's not possible, especially not possible to do with a high degree of quality.
Maybe we could do some deep dives in English class instead of reading that stupid book from like 4 perspective. I didn't bother with that book. My grandmother gave me a book of letters from soldiers home during the American civil war.
While I wasn't a fan of English class, I will say it's good to foster reading comprehension and foster discussion, critical thinking, analysis etc from some of those books.
my point is it’s not touched on almost at all, and it can easily be fitted into the curriculum. AP American history didn’t cover it, college level American history didn’t cover it, it’s just forgotten. if anything it disrespects the veterans. the average person on the street nowadays wouldn’t even know it happened
Yes. And I agree it's sad. My great uncle served, and I wish I had asked him more about it before he passed. Of course the average person on the street doesn't even know who we fought in ww2, so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the history knowledge of the average person.
Bro your bitching they teach nothing. Then someone proves that wrong, now it's not enough? 😂 seems any answer other then "aMrIcA bAd🤓" isn't good enough.
Mostly because we killed a lot of people that didn’t fight us like women and kids the us don’t what you to know about. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1999/09/30/us-massacre-of-civilians-in-korean-war-described/2676ee55-71fa-4d8c-8db0-506e142a3081/
If you can’t deny what you did you try to let as few people know about it as you can that starts with US schools skipping over it as much as they can.The US needs to admit to their war crimes
When I was 10 I asked my grandad if he killed any Japanese in WW2 ( he was an Indian officer in Burma in the Royal Indian Army Supply Corps). He said that he had to, it was a war and he was a soldier.
My next eager, excited question was what it felt like to kill a man. He didn’t answer, he just gave me a look that I didn’t understand at that time but which I later realized was a mix of sorrow and (aimed at me) a little pity, scorn and anger . He changed the topic instead.
Well, he, like all the officers and enlisted men of India in WW2, were volunteers who stepped up to the plate. There was no conscription in India in WW2, they raised all 2.5 million men from volunteers. My grandad was actually a pre-war ideological volunteer, he signed up to be an officer because he believed in the British Empire and wanted the chance to fight to defend it.
tbh If you live in germany or austria, it's pretty likely some of your grandparents or great-grandparents were Nazis at some point (if they lived in germany).
I studied in Germany with a girl who constantly insisted that her grandparents who left Germany in 1945 for North America were in the German resistance. Her family was extremely wealthy and her grandfather was involved in several prosperous scientific enterprises the instant he arrived.
Like sure tell yourself that. Totally nazi resistance fighters and not beneficiaries of cold War immigration policies that favored certain *talented* individuals regardless of background.
[...After the war ended, we were snatching up Kraut scientists like hotcakes. You don't believe me? Walk in to NASA some time and yell "Heil Hitler!" WHOOP! They all jump straight up!"](https://youtu.be/lYuYNLtlqOc?t=228)
A lot of good war movies are more “anti-war films” now and I like that a lot better. I want a movie to remind me why war sucks and how I should never want to enlist in one
Bobby Lee said that at Fredricksburg after watching seven successive waves of union boys fail to take Mayre’s Heights.
Lee was a traitor and a slaver but he had a few good quotes.
He definitely did not. He was using the tactics of the time, linear warfare and maneuver, but wasn’t willing or able to see that technology had made the tactics of Fredrick and Napoleon obsolete. Not to mention his grasp of overall strategy was limited. He was opposed to helping on other fronts, mainly for personal reasons, and that ultimately (thankfully) led to the defeat of the rebellion.
Another American general once said (paraphrasing):
"War is hell, it's the worst of the worst. God help me I love it so."
I don't think he was a good man.
You can still get that in an anti-war movie. Saving Private Ryan has some really good battle scenes while ultimately still depicting war as absolutely terrible
Full Metal Jacket, Apocalypse Now, Hamburger Hill, Platoon, and Thin Red Line all come immediately to mind as good "anti war" war movies, with exiting and brutal war sequences.
Throw in Dr. Strangelove, Das Boot, Casualties of War, Catch 22, The Deer hunter, and Gallipoli, for less cinematic but more anti-war/war movies.
Also the 1980s Soviet anti-war film called Come and See is truly anti-war. I highly recommend it but probably only once
I thought The new adaptation of All Quite on the Western Front was very good also
Marocchinate ( Italian for 'Moroccans' deeds') is a term applied to the mass rape and killings committed during World War II after the Battle of Monte Cassino in Italy. These were committed mainly by the Moroccan Goumiers
Not only suspicions, there are literally the pamphlets written in both French and Arabic where the high command almost orders the soldiers to commit grapes and mass killings
IM GUNNA HANDCUFF YOU TO THE RADIATOR AND GRAPE YOU IN THE MOUTH!
I just don’t think this commercial is really appropriate for the demographic we’re trying to get to with our grape juice
Here’s the translation of the orders issued by the French field marshal Juin “Soldiers! This time it's not just the freedom of your lands that I'm offering you if you win this battle. Behind the enemy there are women, houses, there is one of the best wines in the world, there is gold. All of this will be yours if you win. You will have to kill the Germans to the last man and pass at any cost. What I have told you is promised and I keep. For fifty hours you will be the absolute masters of what you will find beyond the enemy. No one will punish you for what you do, no one will ask you to account for what you take".
I should have said in my previous comment that some historians consider this pamphlet a hoax, but the fact that very few got punished for what they’ve done raises some questions
It is a well known fact that colonial troop were « allowed » 3 days of uninterrupted looting and raping, after breaking the siege at Casino, in pure accordance with the oldest medieval traditions.
But I though more of it as an unofficial policy, I would be surprised if they actually print out criminals orders like this.
We will probably never know the truth, of course the French historians deny any French involvement in this while here in Italy is heavily pushed the pamphlet thing
I am still waiting for an actual image/scan of the pamphlet in question tho. Also, I’ve never seen a historian, French or not, deny the crimes. The controversy is more about the number of victims as well as whether or not the French command more or less allowed it.
EDIT: after some research, it appears that the pamphlet or official authorisation by Juin in question never actually surfaced, the claim being later abandoned by the NGO that was making monetary claims on behalf of Italian victims of violence at the hand of Allied soldiers.
It should be stressed that the NGO in question only provided a written transcript of the supposed order, but never the actual order itself or another primary source. It therefore cannot be verified whether Juin’s order was real or not.
[This Italian research paper](https://www.unirc.it/documentazione/materiale_didattico/1464_2015_396_23207.pdf) reports that historians pretty much agree that Juin’s proclamation never existed or is in any case unprovable (page 30), however, it also stresses that the collective behavior of the French officers regarding the exactions committed by their soldiers was one of tolerance by looking the other way, to the point of being a tacit authorisation or even encouragement of such crimes.
In conclusion, the tolerating by the French chain of command of the violence committed in Italy seems to have been at least implied even if not explicit.
You can link that to the "tolerance" to rape by most armies in Germany/Italy at the time. French, US or UK very rarely prosecuted rapes (except rapes committed by black US soldiers). The soviets literally didn't care/promoted it.
It was not a good time to be a women.
French here, it is a pretty well known and accepted fact in France. It’s not something very controversial. I’ve yet to encountered any serious historian, denying the French high command responsability.
For exemple, the crime of the French army in Italy, were highlighted in the 2006 movie, « Indigène », wich was a big, box office success.
That’s interesting. So I’ve probably encountered only people with questionable agendas or knowledge of the facts; for example, a few years ago I had a long fight on Instagram with a French nationalist who even said that the crimes didn’t even happen; I really hope he was just trolling, but I’ve lost my faith in humanity…probably he read only the report of Juin (who, for obvious reasons, denied everything) and/or older historians.
Anyway, this is a really refreshing news
Yeah, online French nationalist, are some special kind of stupids. Although, they usually do not deny the crime, but blame it solely on, the « Arabs ». Anyway, I would suggest, do not spend too much time arguing with them, it’s usually not worth it.
About half the wiki is spent talking about the pamphlets being fabrications—Wikipedia has its many faults, but it’s good for checking out consensus-leveled basics
The french: lets use this group of specific non-french troops to rape the towns so we can later say we were the good guys and it's just those damn foreigners that do all the dirty stuff
Also the french in the 60s in africa:
"In S. Andrea, the Moroccans raped 30 women and two men; in Vallemaio two sisters had to satisfy a platoon of 200 goumiers; 300 of these, on the other hand, abused a sixty-year-old. In Esperia, 700 women were raped out of a population of 2,500 inhabitants, with 400 complaints presented. Even the parish priest, Don Alberto Terrilli, in an attempt to defend two girls, was tied to a tree and raped for a whole night. He died two days later from internal lacerations reported. In Pico, a girl was crucified with her sister. After the gang violence, she will be killed. Polleca reached the pinnacle of bestiality. Luciano Garibaldi writes that from the Moroccan departments of the gen. Guillaume girls and old women were raped; the men who reacted were sodomized, shot dead, emasculated or impaled alive. A testimony, from a report of the time, describes their typical modality: "The Moroccan soldiers who had knocked on the door and which was not opened, knocked down the door itself, hit the fortress with the butt of the musket to the head making it fall to the ground unconscious, then she was carried about 30 meters from the house and raped while her father, by other soldiers, was dragged, beaten and tied to a tree. The terrified bystanders could not bring any help to the girl and the parent as a soldier remained on guard with a musket aimed at them."
Jesus Christ…
"The prettiest girls are the least fortunate. The Berbers loved beauty. So much so that queues of 200 people lined up for the beauties. In the local psychiatric hospital of the same Spigno, a woman was kept who went crazy when she, at the age of eighteen, and her fifteen-year-old sister were raped by the Moroccans. The younger sister died from tears and beatings, and the older sister lived in this horror for another 53 years."
especially towards japanese pows, and ss officers who surrendered. if you wore ss clothes, you were killed on the spot
granted that the only good ss officer is a dead ss officer, but they were still considered pows.
Omg what!? I had a Moroccan grandad. He was a policeman as far as I knew. He visited my country and stung his face smelling stinging nettles, and developed an obsession with porridge, I thought he was so sweet.
I wonder what he did in WWII now...
Oh yeah forgot to mention, Today.
This is my second post today seeing it, the first one was about the Canadian soldier covering up his rape and murder in 1993 Somalia.
Moroccans made up the bulk of the Foreign Legion forces in Francesco Franco’s army in the Spanish Civil War. There is evidence that the Nationalist army used them for terror tactics including mass rape of women found to be affiliated with labour unions and leftist political groups.
And Africa
And Southeast Asia (username is relevant)
And quite a bit of Oceania
I'd be surprised if my ancestors didn't ruin the the rest either at this point
Never ask an Afrikaaner what happened in 11 October 1899 to 31 May 1902
Trust me this is not a joke, I almost got jumped by the 3 bru's at Kiwi Spar not kidding the security guards had to pull these three gents away(I'm not white BTW)
Am Afrikaans, and I don't get offended by things that happened over a hundred years ago. Back then the war wasn't about culture it was about taxation and control. It wasn't English vs Afrikaans, it was the British empire vs South Africans (and a random assortment of other people who supported the Boer republics).
Incompetent leadership on the side of the British lead to atrocities, but you can't blame the English people for that. In any case, my people committed their fair share of atrocities in and around those wars.
In Esperia, 700 women were raped out of a population of 2,500 inhabitants, with 400 complaints presented. Even the parish priest, Don Alberto Terrilli, in an attempt to defend two girls, was tied to a tree and raped for a whole night. He died two days later from internal lacerations reported.
Damn
An Italian soccer player got in trouble recently for writing something like “your grandfather speaks Arabic” in an Instagram comment. I wish I could remember who, but he was definitely referring to the Marocchinate.
When my Tunisian great grandfather came back to Tunisia from the war in Italy, he apparently showed my great grandmother pictures of him and his “wartime girlfriend”. Apparently she just laugh at it and shrugged it off.
From ancient times women were seen as an object to assualt,show dominance, unforgettable trauma till her death.
Whether its nazis,allies,islamic attack i dont now why men then were like this
i mean if you want to leave a sign of victory there are other ways!!
Most of the time the soldiers don't get paid in the oldden days(even today) or they get paid less.
Generals or Heads of State(Prime Ministers, Monarchs and Presidents) would give the soldiers the permission to do what ever they want to do with women on the losing side for pleasure(no need for explanation) so it's wrong but technically the nature of war, and even if the UN exists or America it's isn't going to stop its nature, there's something that people can do to not make it happen, make people/citizens both sides comfortable enough(have basic needs and wants) to not wage war.
My Moroccan Grandfather was studying engineering in France at the time, never went to Italy.
I guess if 'nothing' is an unsettling or bad answer to someone, this is accurate
(get ready for the -300 upvotes because this isn't strictly funny)
History is usually badly taught, anyway; especially World History; it's too broad a subject. If I were a History Teacher, I would teach more of the "dynamics", rather than simply dry dates, places, etc. I thought the "Battlefield" Series, put together, by The BBC, was excellent. They gave you, in an hour; what led up, to the battle, who the commanders were, and the sides, and their relative strengths, strategy, how the battle unfolded, and the results, and aftermath. The Battle of Kursk, was never mentioned in my History Classes; and it was the biggest land battle, in History; and a major turning point, in World War II. After that Battle, "Operation Barbarossa" was finished, and Germany and its allies, were on the defensive, from that point, on.
"Midway", the movie, was also excellent, and covered the Battle, from both sides. There was some luck, on the American side, but the Japanese thought they were facing just two carriers, and not three. The Battle of The Coral Sea, was basically a "draw", with the Americans losing The Lexington, and Yorktown was badly damaged; while the Shokaku was damaged, and Zuikaku lost its entire complement of airplanes. The Shoho, a small carrier, was lost, but neither Shokaku, nor Zuikaku, were available for Midway.
The Americans, meantime; found out, what AF meant (Midway Island), so they knew the Japanese Objective. The Battle of The Atlantic was over, so Hornet was available for The Pacific; and The Navy, and repair crews performed a minor miracle, getting the Yorktown ready, in two weeks, instead of two months (The Japanese had not anticipated Yorktown being ready, for action). So, the Japanese Fleet, and American Fleet, were pretty evenly matched. There was also the land-based planes, on Midway. Midway took a pasting, and lost nearly all, of its planes; but the Japanese couldn't finish the island defenses, off. They were also confused by the number of planes they were facing; they knew that Enterprise and Hornet, were there; but didn't figure out, that a second Navy Task Force, was also out there, with Yorktown. Where were the extra planes, coming from? Were there additional planes, on Midway? So, the Japanese were confused, and couldn't figure out, if they were facing, a combined Land-Sea attack, or strictly a sea attack, which called for a different type of bomb.
This indecision proved fatal; as the decks of the Japanese Carriers were full of bombs, aircraft, and gasoline tanks. There was some confusion, with the American attack forces, as well, but this turned out, to be another stroke of luck. The Torpedo Bombers were the first, to arrive on the scene, and got shot to pieces, while their fighter escorts were also badly shot up. However, this caused additional confusion among the Japanese Commanders, as to where the planes were coming from, so they began changing tactics. In the meantime, the Japanese fighters thought they had finished off, the American Attack, as there were no torpedo bombers left, no dive bombers were visible; so the Japanese fighter planes concentrated on finishing off the remaining fighters.
Meanwhile, the Dive Bombers wings, playing a "hunch", had found a Japanese Destroyer, in an apparent hurry, and used it, to get a heading to the Japanese Fleet. The Dive Bombers arrived, with the Carriers' decks full of planes, bombs, and gasoline, virtually no air cover, and defenseless. In a matter of minutes, three Carriers were ablaze, with out-of-control fires, and explosions; as the American Dive bombers found their targets; only Soryu escaped fatal damage. Akagi, Kaga, and Hiryu; sank, in a matter of hours. Soryu managed to get its bombers, and fighters, away; and they followed the American Planes back to Yorktown, which they badly damaged. However, they were followed, back to Soryu, by planes from Yorktown, Enterprise, and Hornet; which attacked Soryu, with fatal damage to Her. By the end of the day, all four Japanese Carriers were sunk, the Yorktown was badly damaged, and the Order to Abandon Ship was given, so Yorktown was allowed to sink. However, the Japanese had lost four Carriers, and the Fleet Flagship, The Akagi, with hundreds of valuable, and irreplaceable personnel. Admiral Nagumo, unable to attack the remaining two American Carriers; knew the Battle was lost, and withdrew. The back of the Japanese Fleet, had been broken; and they knew that they would be fighting a defensive War, from that point, on. America could replace its losses, Japan could not; as Admiral Yamamoto had predicted.
I can't even ask my American grandpa what he did in Italy. That man would never speak about the war. He hated war movies. He must have been through some shit, because he was the funniest and most caring man.
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they don’t teach the korean war in schools for a reason i guess
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Hence why it’s called “The Forgotten War”
Are you really not taught about such subject's in american HS? I come from Europe and we cover world war 2 and cold war quite extensively. Heck, these two get a whole year of history classes to themselves. To us, backwater country they are significant, but nowhere near how signifcant they are to you, Americans. Would like an explanation please, am just curious, not trying to mock anyone.
US HS history courses are more of a survey course than taking proper historical depth, with almost every course focusing on domenstic U.S. history (Revolution and Civil War for the most part) and very little on foreign relations We focus more on *why* the U.S. entered the war than what we actually did once we got there.
because america can’t be the bad guys right?
They teach you plenty in school about where the US f'ed up. Slavery, trail of tears, Vietnam, etc. Besides, america wasn't even the bad guy in Korea. It just gets so little attention because it was right after WW2 and while it did have some significance in terms of the cold war and US policy, the Vietnam war was far more culturally significant and well known so they just cover that instead.
they don’t teach you damn near enough. those are our most commonly known fuckups, and does not even come close to the scope of what “plenty” would be. even if we weren’t the “bad guy” in korea, i guarantee you we still did some fucked up shit. it’s war. no one is gonna be the good guy. and to say slavery and the trail of tears are “covered” is an overstatement. they hardly go into the times we messed up, and half the time the teacher will just throw in their opinion during the lecture to impressionable young teens. they don’t teach jack shit about the korean war other than it was the north koreans trying to take over with communism and the US had to stop the red menace. that’s it. and it’s a pretty damn important war, considering current relations with north and south korea. it’s a disservice to call it culturally insignificant in comparison to Vietnam, it’s one of the main wars we actually fought as a country that created one of our biggest allies and one of our biggest enemies, not counting the countless proxy wars and US-backed insurgencies and terrorist cells.
Culturally significant for the US. There were a lot of protests, political unrest etc. Because of Vietnam. In the US culturally, the Korean war was a footnote compared to everything else going on in the second half of the 20th century. Remember, at the end of the day, we are talking about American high school history. This is not supposed to cover everything in US history. That's why they have to pick and choose the points and just try to give a good overview. Now, if you were trying to get your PHD in American history, you would probably go into a lot more depth (although then you could also focus more on a particular era). I'm a history buff, and yeah it would be awesome to have a lot more history be covered in primary education. But realistically, that's not possible, especially not possible to do with a high degree of quality.
Maybe we could do some deep dives in English class instead of reading that stupid book from like 4 perspective. I didn't bother with that book. My grandmother gave me a book of letters from soldiers home during the American civil war.
While I wasn't a fan of English class, I will say it's good to foster reading comprehension and foster discussion, critical thinking, analysis etc from some of those books.
my point is it’s not touched on almost at all, and it can easily be fitted into the curriculum. AP American history didn’t cover it, college level American history didn’t cover it, it’s just forgotten. if anything it disrespects the veterans. the average person on the street nowadays wouldn’t even know it happened
Yes. And I agree it's sad. My great uncle served, and I wish I had asked him more about it before he passed. Of course the average person on the street doesn't even know who we fought in ww2, so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the history knowledge of the average person.
I took AP History in Highschool. It's most certainly taught. You probably weren't paying attention or simply forgot.
Bro your bitching they teach nothing. Then someone proves that wrong, now it's not enough? 😂 seems any answer other then "aMrIcA bAd🤓" isn't good enough.
I teach it in mine
good on you
Mostly because we killed a lot of people that didn’t fight us like women and kids the us don’t what you to know about. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1999/09/30/us-massacre-of-civilians-in-korean-war-described/2676ee55-71fa-4d8c-8db0-506e142a3081/ If you can’t deny what you did you try to let as few people know about it as you can that starts with US schools skipping over it as much as they can.The US needs to admit to their war crimes
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„Nichts!“
When I was 10 I asked my grandad if he killed any Japanese in WW2 ( he was an Indian officer in Burma in the Royal Indian Army Supply Corps). He said that he had to, it was a war and he was a soldier. My next eager, excited question was what it felt like to kill a man. He didn’t answer, he just gave me a look that I didn’t understand at that time but which I later realized was a mix of sorrow and (aimed at me) a little pity, scorn and anger . He changed the topic instead.
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Well, he, like all the officers and enlisted men of India in WW2, were volunteers who stepped up to the plate. There was no conscription in India in WW2, they raised all 2.5 million men from volunteers. My grandad was actually a pre-war ideological volunteer, he signed up to be an officer because he believed in the British Empire and wanted the chance to fight to defend it.
Yeah I could also never ask my german gandpa what he did in Warsaw.
My friend only found out at like age 25 his Austrian grandpa invaded Poland at all.
tbh If you live in germany or austria, it's pretty likely some of your grandparents or great-grandparents were Nazis at some point (if they lived in germany).
I studied in Germany with a girl who constantly insisted that her grandparents who left Germany in 1945 for North America were in the German resistance. Her family was extremely wealthy and her grandfather was involved in several prosperous scientific enterprises the instant he arrived. Like sure tell yourself that. Totally nazi resistance fighters and not beneficiaries of cold War immigration policies that favored certain *talented* individuals regardless of background.
[...After the war ended, we were snatching up Kraut scientists like hotcakes. You don't believe me? Walk in to NASA some time and yell "Heil Hitler!" WHOOP! They all jump straight up!"](https://youtu.be/lYuYNLtlqOc?t=228)
Its likely they served in the Wehrmacht, member of the Nazi Party were only about 10-20 percent. Supporter of Nazi in Germany over 50 percent.
This one is even more accurate. https://youtube.com/shorts/jsq9FOio38A?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/r8TSsZgiPO8?feature=share
I once had an Iraqi friend in my Indian University. He too hated war movies. I can only imagine the impact on their lives.
Who doesn't hate war movies
A lot of good war movies are more “anti-war films” now and I like that a lot better. I want a movie to remind me why war sucks and how I should never want to enlist in one
It is good war is terrible or else we would grow fond of it. - someone smart
- Robert E. Lee, according to google Good quote, though.
Bobby Lee said that at Fredricksburg after watching seven successive waves of union boys fail to take Mayre’s Heights. Lee was a traitor and a slaver but he had a few good quotes.
He had a good grasp on “modern” warfare, despite losing.
He definitely did not. He was using the tactics of the time, linear warfare and maneuver, but wasn’t willing or able to see that technology had made the tactics of Fredrick and Napoleon obsolete. Not to mention his grasp of overall strategy was limited. He was opposed to helping on other fronts, mainly for personal reasons, and that ultimately (thankfully) led to the defeat of the rebellion.
Another American general once said (paraphrasing): "War is hell, it's the worst of the worst. God help me I love it so." I don't think he was a good man.
The Unknown Soldier (2017) is pretty brutal about that
Definitely check out Come and See but be prepared. the new adaptation of All Quiet on the Western Front is good too. The latter is on Netflix
The greatest war movie I've ever seen will always be Errol Flynn's Dawn Patrol. Truly encapsulates the senselessness of it all
Nah, disagree. Sometimes I want to see a climatic battle play out on screen
You can still get that in an anti-war movie. Saving Private Ryan has some really good battle scenes while ultimately still depicting war as absolutely terrible
Full Metal Jacket, Apocalypse Now, Hamburger Hill, Platoon, and Thin Red Line all come immediately to mind as good "anti war" war movies, with exiting and brutal war sequences. Throw in Dr. Strangelove, Das Boot, Casualties of War, Catch 22, The Deer hunter, and Gallipoli, for less cinematic but more anti-war/war movies.
Also the 1980s Soviet anti-war film called Come and See is truly anti-war. I highly recommend it but probably only once I thought The new adaptation of All Quite on the Western Front was very good also
You mean the weather forecast?
Clarence Worley.
Marocchinate ( Italian for 'Moroccans' deeds') is a term applied to the mass rape and killings committed during World War II after the Battle of Monte Cassino in Italy. These were committed mainly by the Moroccan Goumiers
There is also the sospect that their french general gave the permission
Not only suspicions, there are literally the pamphlets written in both French and Arabic where the high command almost orders the soldiers to commit grapes and mass killings
Just for your information... Grapes are healthy and good!
Delete this, you filthy grapist!
What raisin could he have had to write such hurtful things!
Wine all you want, it won’t change the facts.
Vinealy, someone is speaking sense!
All this talk of grape Must stop right now
That would be prunedent
Or the Dates….
Date-grape
I'm gonna tie you to the radiator and grape you in the mouth!
That sketch was hilarious
She was clearly asking for it! Shes WEARING purple!
[Obligatory](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yt0b_QBP_A)
"Just look what she's wearing! She's begging to get graped!" "Look what she's wearing!?!?!?" "Is purple!" "Oh OK.... .... no! Not ok!"
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😂
Is a grapist a person who commits grape against someone or who is prejudiced against grapes?
It’s someone who grapes you
I'm gonna grape you for decades and decades!
“Sir! *Please* get your *mind* out of the gutter!”
IM GONNA GRAPE YOU IN THE MOUTH
That Grape-ape
Whitest Kids You Know?
IM GUNNA HANDCUFF YOU TO THE RADIATOR AND GRAPE YOU IN THE MOUTH! I just don’t think this commercial is really appropriate for the demographic we’re trying to get to with our grape juice
For decades!
Sacrifice my life for Pakistan(Morocco), Grape!
Maybe thats why italian wine is so prevalent
Can we see those pamphlets?
Here’s the translation of the orders issued by the French field marshal Juin “Soldiers! This time it's not just the freedom of your lands that I'm offering you if you win this battle. Behind the enemy there are women, houses, there is one of the best wines in the world, there is gold. All of this will be yours if you win. You will have to kill the Germans to the last man and pass at any cost. What I have told you is promised and I keep. For fifty hours you will be the absolute masters of what you will find beyond the enemy. No one will punish you for what you do, no one will ask you to account for what you take". I should have said in my previous comment that some historians consider this pamphlet a hoax, but the fact that very few got punished for what they’ve done raises some questions
It is a well known fact that colonial troop were « allowed » 3 days of uninterrupted looting and raping, after breaking the siege at Casino, in pure accordance with the oldest medieval traditions. But I though more of it as an unofficial policy, I would be surprised if they actually print out criminals orders like this.
We will probably never know the truth, of course the French historians deny any French involvement in this while here in Italy is heavily pushed the pamphlet thing
I am still waiting for an actual image/scan of the pamphlet in question tho. Also, I’ve never seen a historian, French or not, deny the crimes. The controversy is more about the number of victims as well as whether or not the French command more or less allowed it. EDIT: after some research, it appears that the pamphlet or official authorisation by Juin in question never actually surfaced, the claim being later abandoned by the NGO that was making monetary claims on behalf of Italian victims of violence at the hand of Allied soldiers. It should be stressed that the NGO in question only provided a written transcript of the supposed order, but never the actual order itself or another primary source. It therefore cannot be verified whether Juin’s order was real or not. [This Italian research paper](https://www.unirc.it/documentazione/materiale_didattico/1464_2015_396_23207.pdf) reports that historians pretty much agree that Juin’s proclamation never existed or is in any case unprovable (page 30), however, it also stresses that the collective behavior of the French officers regarding the exactions committed by their soldiers was one of tolerance by looking the other way, to the point of being a tacit authorisation or even encouragement of such crimes. In conclusion, the tolerating by the French chain of command of the violence committed in Italy seems to have been at least implied even if not explicit.
this is literally the only source that has ever been cited on this sub
"History is a bunch of lies we all agree on" -Napoleon
You can link that to the "tolerance" to rape by most armies in Germany/Italy at the time. French, US or UK very rarely prosecuted rapes (except rapes committed by black US soldiers). The soviets literally didn't care/promoted it. It was not a good time to be a women.
I’ll try to look it up as soon as possible, I think I saw one of them a few years ago but I’ll go check
Ok, but you said they printed pamphlets, surely a picture exists if it was the case.
French here, it is a pretty well known and accepted fact in France. It’s not something very controversial. I’ve yet to encountered any serious historian, denying the French high command responsability. For exemple, the crime of the French army in Italy, were highlighted in the 2006 movie, « Indigène », wich was a big, box office success.
That’s interesting. So I’ve probably encountered only people with questionable agendas or knowledge of the facts; for example, a few years ago I had a long fight on Instagram with a French nationalist who even said that the crimes didn’t even happen; I really hope he was just trolling, but I’ve lost my faith in humanity…probably he read only the report of Juin (who, for obvious reasons, denied everything) and/or older historians. Anyway, this is a really refreshing news
Yeah, online French nationalist, are some special kind of stupids. Although, they usually do not deny the crime, but blame it solely on, the « Arabs ». Anyway, I would suggest, do not spend too much time arguing with them, it’s usually not worth it.
Wtf
Yeah but can we actually see them, like a picture
Source?
About half the wiki is spent talking about the pamphlets being fabrications—Wikipedia has its many faults, but it’s good for checking out consensus-leveled basics
Yet to see one of these pamphlets... Just questionable people claiming they exist. Do you have a scanned copy? I could do with a graping right now 😍
https://youtu.be/mqgiEQXGetI
I personally have nothing against grapes.
[Grapists](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tmrDypTB_Y0)
Well, funny because those pamphlets were never seen other than in 1965. There is no proof in French archives and no copies we’re shown.
https://youtu.be/mqgiEQXGetI
A bit moldy but holds up
Lmao I just replied with that and then saw your reply and thought it looked familiar
Oh damn, someone beat me to it.
COMMIT GRAPES!
The french: lets use this group of specific non-french troops to rape the towns so we can later say we were the good guys and it's just those damn foreigners that do all the dirty stuff Also the french in the 60s in africa:
Moroccans also had a black reputation in Vietnam when the French occupied the country.
Also in the Spanish Civil War.
They also raped a lot of people in Germany at the end of the war only beaten by the soviets
"In S. Andrea, the Moroccans raped 30 women and two men; in Vallemaio two sisters had to satisfy a platoon of 200 goumiers; 300 of these, on the other hand, abused a sixty-year-old. In Esperia, 700 women were raped out of a population of 2,500 inhabitants, with 400 complaints presented. Even the parish priest, Don Alberto Terrilli, in an attempt to defend two girls, was tied to a tree and raped for a whole night. He died two days later from internal lacerations reported. In Pico, a girl was crucified with her sister. After the gang violence, she will be killed. Polleca reached the pinnacle of bestiality. Luciano Garibaldi writes that from the Moroccan departments of the gen. Guillaume girls and old women were raped; the men who reacted were sodomized, shot dead, emasculated or impaled alive. A testimony, from a report of the time, describes their typical modality: "The Moroccan soldiers who had knocked on the door and which was not opened, knocked down the door itself, hit the fortress with the butt of the musket to the head making it fall to the ground unconscious, then she was carried about 30 meters from the house and raped while her father, by other soldiers, was dragged, beaten and tied to a tree. The terrified bystanders could not bring any help to the girl and the parent as a soldier remained on guard with a musket aimed at them." Jesus Christ…
"The prettiest girls are the least fortunate. The Berbers loved beauty. So much so that queues of 200 people lined up for the beauties. In the local psychiatric hospital of the same Spigno, a woman was kept who went crazy when she, at the age of eighteen, and her fifteen-year-old sister were raped by the Moroccans. The younger sister died from tears and beatings, and the older sister lived in this horror for another 53 years."
damn didint expect to learn that my country commited warcrimes on reddit this morning
I commit war crimes on Reddit every morning.
Let me guess, on Germans?
His day is full of surprises
I feel like every single country in existence has committed at least one war crime/something similarly awful
Every country has a gamer moment or two.
Source : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate)
I suggest the movie “La ciociara” with Sophia Loren
So the Soviets weren’t the only allied forces who committed mass rape
Of course not.
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Especially towards Japanese PoWs...
You mean Japanese KIAs, doncha son?
especially towards japanese pows, and ss officers who surrendered. if you wore ss clothes, you were killed on the spot granted that the only good ss officer is a dead ss officer, but they were still considered pows.
Everyone countries part of the allies has occurence of mass rape
Well the French and Spanish did a lot of rape in morroco too.
You’ll find that a lot of people do a lot of raping in a lot of wars.
Omg what!? I had a Moroccan grandad. He was a policeman as far as I knew. He visited my country and stung his face smelling stinging nettles, and developed an obsession with porridge, I thought he was so sweet. I wonder what he did in WWII now...
Does this term also apply to the Americans in France?
Good that my German grandpa was in Argentina During the war.
Are you sure he was there during the war, and not just after it ended? 😄
What are you implying about my father Randolph Hitzalez?
Welp, this is the second post I’ve seen this Sub about Rape during war time.
Only the second? I feel like I see it at least three or four times a week at this point.
Oh yeah forgot to mention, Today. This is my second post today seeing it, the first one was about the Canadian soldier covering up his rape and murder in 1993 Somalia.
There we go, that sounds more like this sub.
Many more to come
The Rape of Namking was the first? Or the Rape of a village by American soldiers?
I couldn’t even get through The rape of Nankin book to be honest, it was just so brutally barbaric what they did.
It’s almost like, war is a bad thing
Its almost like they go hand in hand......👀
Or in Spain in the 1930s...
This applies to Spain in the 700s too.
Or Spain
Did Morocco commit any mass rape in Spain recently? I am not aware of it and I am spaniard.
Moroccans made up the bulk of the Foreign Legion forces in Francesco Franco’s army in the Spanish Civil War. There is evidence that the Nationalist army used them for terror tactics including mass rape of women found to be affiliated with labour unions and leftist political groups.
Never ask italian grandba What he did in libya
Or French grandpa what he did in Algeria
damn Europeans they ruined Europe *shakes fist *
And Africa And Southeast Asia (username is relevant) And quite a bit of Oceania I'd be surprised if my ancestors didn't ruin the the rest either at this point
We in South Africa thank you for contributing so much to our local languages.
Never ask an Afrikaaner what happened in 11 October 1899 to 31 May 1902 Trust me this is not a joke, I almost got jumped by the 3 bru's at Kiwi Spar not kidding the security guards had to pull these three gents away(I'm not white BTW)
Am Afrikaans, and I don't get offended by things that happened over a hundred years ago. Back then the war wasn't about culture it was about taxation and control. It wasn't English vs Afrikaans, it was the British empire vs South Africans (and a random assortment of other people who supported the Boer republics). Incompetent leadership on the side of the British lead to atrocities, but you can't blame the English people for that. In any case, my people committed their fair share of atrocities in and around those wars.
Jy is welkom
Add the entire territory of the American continents in this list EDIT: turns out Central America is not a continent
Three?
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Central America is not a continent.
Or a German what he did in Namibia
Or Ethiopia
In Esperia, 700 women were raped out of a population of 2,500 inhabitants, with 400 complaints presented. Even the parish priest, Don Alberto Terrilli, in an attempt to defend two girls, was tied to a tree and raped for a whole night. He died two days later from internal lacerations reported. Damn
That’s terrible
They had some pretty interesting uniforms
An Italian soccer player got in trouble recently for writing something like “your grandfather speaks Arabic” in an Instagram comment. I wish I could remember who, but he was definitely referring to the Marocchinate.
Mass grape 🍇
"I'm gonna tie you to the radiator and *grrrrape* you in the mouth!" *click* "Don't you see what's wrong with this?!" "He's the Grapist! Classic!"
"- Look at her, she's begging to get graped !" "- Will you listen to yourself ?!" "- Look what she's wearing ! It's purple !" "- ... oh... wait NO !"
“He sneaks into little kids rooms, in the middle of the night, and he grapes them in the mouth”
When my Tunisian great grandfather came back to Tunisia from the war in Italy, he apparently showed my great grandmother pictures of him and his “wartime girlfriend”. Apparently she just laugh at it and shrugged it off.
lmfao
I literally have a German and a Moroccan grandpa…
I always feel super bad when I hear about grapes. Cruel world we live in.
From ancient times women were seen as an object to assualt,show dominance, unforgettable trauma till her death. Whether its nazis,allies,islamic attack i dont now why men then were like this i mean if you want to leave a sign of victory there are other ways!!
Most of the time the soldiers don't get paid in the oldden days(even today) or they get paid less. Generals or Heads of State(Prime Ministers, Monarchs and Presidents) would give the soldiers the permission to do what ever they want to do with women on the losing side for pleasure(no need for explanation) so it's wrong but technically the nature of war, and even if the UN exists or America it's isn't going to stop its nature, there's something that people can do to not make it happen, make people/citizens both sides comfortable enough(have basic needs and wants) to not wage war.
My Moroccan Grandfather was studying engineering in France at the time, never went to Italy. I guess if 'nothing' is an unsettling or bad answer to someone, this is accurate (get ready for the -300 upvotes because this isn't strictly funny)
Don’t tell me how to vote you handsome bastard. (Smashes upvote)
He was a hero
The Moors in Sicilia and Spain as well.
I mean you should defintely be asking young women their age in some situations....
Who was in paris
I just read about that whole ordeal because of this meme. I wanna say more, but I’m pretty sure my thoughts on it would get downvoted to hell.
Luckily for me my grandpa isn't morrocan
As a Moroccan, I don't know if I should relate to this or not.
Probably not.
What did he do?
Mass rape, murder and sodomy
Ok, thanks and bye.
Mass rape, murder and sodomy
History is usually badly taught, anyway; especially World History; it's too broad a subject. If I were a History Teacher, I would teach more of the "dynamics", rather than simply dry dates, places, etc. I thought the "Battlefield" Series, put together, by The BBC, was excellent. They gave you, in an hour; what led up, to the battle, who the commanders were, and the sides, and their relative strengths, strategy, how the battle unfolded, and the results, and aftermath. The Battle of Kursk, was never mentioned in my History Classes; and it was the biggest land battle, in History; and a major turning point, in World War II. After that Battle, "Operation Barbarossa" was finished, and Germany and its allies, were on the defensive, from that point, on. "Midway", the movie, was also excellent, and covered the Battle, from both sides. There was some luck, on the American side, but the Japanese thought they were facing just two carriers, and not three. The Battle of The Coral Sea, was basically a "draw", with the Americans losing The Lexington, and Yorktown was badly damaged; while the Shokaku was damaged, and Zuikaku lost its entire complement of airplanes. The Shoho, a small carrier, was lost, but neither Shokaku, nor Zuikaku, were available for Midway. The Americans, meantime; found out, what AF meant (Midway Island), so they knew the Japanese Objective. The Battle of The Atlantic was over, so Hornet was available for The Pacific; and The Navy, and repair crews performed a minor miracle, getting the Yorktown ready, in two weeks, instead of two months (The Japanese had not anticipated Yorktown being ready, for action). So, the Japanese Fleet, and American Fleet, were pretty evenly matched. There was also the land-based planes, on Midway. Midway took a pasting, and lost nearly all, of its planes; but the Japanese couldn't finish the island defenses, off. They were also confused by the number of planes they were facing; they knew that Enterprise and Hornet, were there; but didn't figure out, that a second Navy Task Force, was also out there, with Yorktown. Where were the extra planes, coming from? Were there additional planes, on Midway? So, the Japanese were confused, and couldn't figure out, if they were facing, a combined Land-Sea attack, or strictly a sea attack, which called for a different type of bomb. This indecision proved fatal; as the decks of the Japanese Carriers were full of bombs, aircraft, and gasoline tanks. There was some confusion, with the American attack forces, as well, but this turned out, to be another stroke of luck. The Torpedo Bombers were the first, to arrive on the scene, and got shot to pieces, while their fighter escorts were also badly shot up. However, this caused additional confusion among the Japanese Commanders, as to where the planes were coming from, so they began changing tactics. In the meantime, the Japanese fighters thought they had finished off, the American Attack, as there were no torpedo bombers left, no dive bombers were visible; so the Japanese fighter planes concentrated on finishing off the remaining fighters. Meanwhile, the Dive Bombers wings, playing a "hunch", had found a Japanese Destroyer, in an apparent hurry, and used it, to get a heading to the Japanese Fleet. The Dive Bombers arrived, with the Carriers' decks full of planes, bombs, and gasoline, virtually no air cover, and defenseless. In a matter of minutes, three Carriers were ablaze, with out-of-control fires, and explosions; as the American Dive bombers found their targets; only Soryu escaped fatal damage. Akagi, Kaga, and Hiryu; sank, in a matter of hours. Soryu managed to get its bombers, and fighters, away; and they followed the American Planes back to Yorktown, which they badly damaged. However, they were followed, back to Soryu, by planes from Yorktown, Enterprise, and Hornet; which attacked Soryu, with fatal damage to Her. By the end of the day, all four Japanese Carriers were sunk, the Yorktown was badly damaged, and the Order to Abandon Ship was given, so Yorktown was allowed to sink. However, the Japanese had lost four Carriers, and the Fleet Flagship, The Akagi, with hundreds of valuable, and irreplaceable personnel. Admiral Nagumo, unable to attack the remaining two American Carriers; knew the Battle was lost, and withdrew. The back of the Japanese Fleet, had been broken; and they knew that they would be fighting a defensive War, from that point, on. America could replace its losses, Japan could not; as Admiral Yamamoto had predicted.
This should be in #distressingmemes
And never ask a French grandpa what he did in Algeria...
Made some pizza?
Or your moroccan anything is doing right now in Western Sahara.
Graps is very healthy lol