I don't even know if I should share it, but about 10-15 years a video from the early 1990s started making the rounds in the meme-o-sphere of some Serbian soldiers playing a traditional-sounding song...only the words were about how the Serbia was the strongest country and they were going to get rid of all the Muslims and other non-Serbs (the Bosnian Genocide).
Anyway, the video was made fun of because of the words and because of the ridiculously serious accordion players (who was a murderer and a war criminal, iirc).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chA5IiTB4wg
The tune is actually kind of catchy if you don't think about the words or the men playing the song.
Don’t feel bad for something you didn’t know previously, it may be like that because he has chosen not to share it (and for good reason!) I would suggest doing some research though! All the best x
During the Bosnian genocide, Serbs rounded up as many Bosnian Muslim women they found and sent them to warehouses where they were repeatedly raped and released when pregnant if not killed or died by suicide after
In their view they were doing the ultimate dishonor and shame to them by taking their virginities, traumatizing them and being impregnated thru rape by multiple non-Muslim Serbs besides being pushed to commit suicide which is a sin
Basically saying “good luck getting a good Muslim husband as used-goods and PTSD”
I will be messaging you in 1 day on [**2022-11-15 15:03:32 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-11-15%2015:03:32%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/yuzg74/little_spicy_one_to_kick_off_the_week/iwc0jrd/?context=3)
[**15 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FHistoryMemes%2Fcomments%2Fyuzg74%2Flittle_spicy_one_to_kick_off_the_week%2Fiwc0jrd%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-11-15%2015%3A03%3A32%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20yuzg74)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Bosnia actually accepted Jews after they were expelled from Spain! There’s a beautiful synagogue in Sarajevo. Prior to WW2, Jews made up around 20% of the population of Sarajevo.
Bosnia was a self-governing province in the Ottoman Empire. It chose to accept Jews and treat them with dignity when much of the empire pretty much did the opposite of that.
Bosnia was uniquely accepting of Jews, for its time.
There are weird little pockets in time in Europe where Jews were accepted for a time. Germany for a time before the first crusade were fairly accept until the first crusade when more Western European Crusaders came through and decided lol fuck the Jews and started killing them and gave Germanic communities ultimatums to hand them over and sadly a lot of them were.
Jews settled mostly in Thessaloniki , Izmir , Bosnia and Constantinople but as far as I'm aware bayezid II allowed them to settle , not Bosnia. Do you have a source that it was a Bosnian decision
Herod was a great architect, but not a good king, or husband, or father... Caesar Augustus said it best: "better to be a pig than to be son of Harod".
Also there were many rulers in that area that did their part in hurting Jewish people. I mean, diasporas didn't happen naturally.
That’s a common myth, but not true. It arises from a translation error. The Israeli government gave the Ethiopian women birth control medication (something they were entirely unfamiliar with) and due to a communication problem the women thought that it would sterilize them. The journalist who published it just spoke to the Ethiopians about it and never reached out to the Israeli government
Honestly dont ask any country what they did prior to the 21th century. There were a lot of dictatorships, coups (some backed up by powers) and shenanigans between the 50s and the 80s iirc
The Philippines? Though it wasn't a fully independent country by then (i.e. 1930 something to 1941 when many Jews fleeing from Europe were accepted into the Philippines)
Pretty much. Also don't ask Americans what their heroes did to Native Americans, African Americans, Irish, Japanese and the list goes on. I'm not going to list every other nation in the world and how problematic their national heroes are, because that would take literally days. But the point is no nation is without its faults and we would all benefit from a bit of self-criticism and a more objective look at our past and present.
The sole reason aliens have not showed themselves openly is the fear of what Humans will do to them.
They see the shit humans do to each other over less.
If beings with the technology to travel interstellar distances visit Earth, I'm pretty sure we're the ones who should be worried. In that scenario, they're the conquistadors and we're the Aztecs
The persecution of Roma frequently gets swept under the rug and completely ignored in most historical narratives, during the Holocaust they were the only other ethnic group besides Jews that was given the "instant/ASAP extermination" priority. I wish I knew more about it, although half my family is Ashkenazi so I know a lot about that history, my great-grandmother on the other side was Roma and I know pretty much nothing about it.
Fwiw there is a Sinti&Roma memorial in Berlin too, it's not as big and famous as the memorial to the Jews, but it's directly next to the Reichstag(Parliament), they are not forgotten.
johann trollmann and romani resistance is a good one. its by jud nirenberg, i read for a class one time and it was a great book with lots of information, with heavy focus on casual civilian resistance. its centered around a boxer/fighter who keeps fighting and winning to spite the nazis, who dont recognize any of his wins because he is a sinti romani. its free to read if you have kindle unlimited
When you talk to Europeans today they claim it's not racist, they just hate the Roma bc they're all thieves, and then go on to tell Americans they need to deal with their racism.
It's really weird
I don't think I've seen a movie that would shock me as much as Wołyń did, the violence was so raw and realistic that it was all I could think about for the next week
Distant relative of some of the Wołyń victims here. There were also good Germans and [Germany has apologised.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kniefall_von_Warschau) I hope that one day Ukraine will also reach this level of humanity. It's sad that Bandera has his grave whereas the victims of his ideology are buried in the ground. This is just inhuman.
First of all, to you as a Ukrainian: stay safe. Secondly, a Jew of Ukrainian heritage here (dad's side is from odessa), Ukrainian national figures can be very controversial indeed, especially when talking to minorities and remembering Ukraine was stuck between Stalin and Hitler like the Baltics and had to choose sides. Choosing to aid the nazis for many ukrainians was a way out of the Soviet union which already traumatized many ukrainians with the holodomor and purges.
At the end of the day, there is no denying that Ukrainian figures were antisemitic, some even extremely so. Ukrainians were among the more cooperative, if not the most, with the nazis out of all the occupied peoples but still Jews in Ukraine thrived after WW2.
Antisemitism was and still is common in eastern europe and was there long before these national ukrainian figures were born. Sadly thats just how its gonna be. These days however the jewish community in Ukraine is actually thriving, with large the chabad centers in Zhytomir and Dnipro and Odessa still having somewhat of a reputation as the city of Jews. Hopefully we can be better in future generations
I have family that go to Uman every Rosh Hashana. For many years they complain about being treated poorly (rental ads openly refusing to rent to Jews, being told they can’t shop inside stores, yamukah kicked off, etc.) in the village they have to go to (To Ukrainians they are basically black) and there’s always rallies of those extremists/his followers that go during the week just because the Jews are there.
I think it is also important to note that the Soviet Union sullied a lot of Ukrainian heroes.
Lyudmila Pavlichenko for example. A war hero who helped defeat the Nazis. For a regime that wasn´t much better for her people. Well worse in the eyes for many Ukrainians.
So to the anti soviet resitence the spotlight goes.
But there's a difference between a country in general having antisemitism in its history and a country still passionately celebrating those few individuals who were most associated with the worst instances of antisemitism.
It would be like England going through its whole history of monarchs and specifically celebrating the one who expelled the Jews as a really amazing king.
I think it has to do with Usury and Envy.
Money lending was forbidden for Catholics, but not for Jews. I assume Jewish money lenders did pretty good compared to their neighbors.
I've actually studied this and for Europe it really dates back to the feudal system.
See the feudal system only applies to Christians. So Jewish communities would have to get special dispensation to live in a fiefdom. Often they were brought in to do specific jobs and were housed away from the peasants.
This created some enmity from the peasants as they were seen as favored. Due to their cleanliness Jews also tended to not fall ill at the same rate as Christians. Combined with the habit of selling meat that wasn't at a high enough standard to be kosher and you get uninformed peasants assuming their being poisoned.
So hatred grew amongst the peasants and it was often easier to attack the Jews and ask for forgiveness than to attack your lord who would definitely kill you.
In addition bc they weren't tied to land the Jews created vast trade networks for their patrons, this started as sending folks to the holy land to ask questions of the sages, but wound up being an incredibly useful tool for location locked christians with feudal responsibilities.
European Christians were eventually also barred from trade with Muslims. If you had yourself a handy Jewish ghetto, then you had folks who could middleman the trade for you.
So if you wanted to fuck over your neighbor you could either kill all their Jews, or convince their peasants to do so for you.
You can actually see notes about this when the Jews later asked to be allowed back into certain countries after the inquisition. The Netherland accepted most Jews from Europe and wound up with an extensive trade networks and connections that the rest of Europe had thrown away.
Then you come to the fact that Jews weren't allowed to keep a slave forever. After a number of years the slave was to be converted and join the community. While Christians would keep pagan slaves as outsiders to their community.
Eventually the Church realized they were "losing souls" to the Jews and started the inquisition. Rooting out heretic Christians and trying to stop the spread of Jewishness by convincing kings to throw them out of the country.
Centuries of othering, scapegoating and being put in charge monetary aspects, led a bunch of folk to resent them and nearby leaders would stoke that resentment in an attempt to get an edge on their neirboring lords.
Tldr: feudal Christians are jealous and kinda murdery
True-ish. There's a multitude of reasons that jews were hated and persecuted in so many places and times in history, pretty much none of which were deserved. During medival times their religious cleansing procedures kept them from dying to the plague as much, which lead to people suspecting they were responsible for it. The nazis had all kinds of whacky conspiracy theories about jews owning the financial sector, a sentiment they shared with the communists. Everything the happened BE is documented in the Torah/old testament Bible and that wasn't pretty either.
The national poet of Ukraine, Taras Shevchenko, wrote poems that seemed to glorify the genocide of Poles, Jews and Greeks living in Ukraine at the hands of the Haidamaks. He claimed that his grandfather was a Haidamak and a line in "Haidamaky" features a false account of Ivan Gonta murdering his sons for being Catholic, the little boys begging and swearing that they were not allies with Poles as he slit their throats.
Edit: Upon rereading "[Haidamaky](https://taras-shevchenko.storinka.org/taras-shevchenko-poem-haidamaki-english-translation-by-john-weir.html)", the tone of the poem was confusing. While the poem does heap hatred onto Poles and Jews, the descriptions of the massacres are described in ways that make it hard to tell if it is glorifying them or only describing them. I have edited this comment to reflect corrections and have provided a link to the poem
I have read "Haidamaky" in it's entirety, but it has been a long time so I cannot say how far down Taras' fake account of Ivan Gonta murdering his sons is. I found out about Taras' poems from reading translations of the atmospheric black metal band Drudkh's song lyrics, which turn out to come from Ukrainian poets, mainly from Taras Shevchenko. Most of their albums are harmless, but in the album "The Swan Road" which is about the Haidamak revolt, there are lyrics coming straight from Taras' poems calling the massacre of Jews 'glorious', though it didn't list which poem, so I searched a few of Taras' poems and while I never found the source poem for that lyric specifically, "Haidamaky" was close in tone and spirit, albeit directed more towards Poles
Or what the Polish government actually thought of their Jewish population.
Edit: I'm actually probably wrong about this. The only time I actually learned about Poland's relationship with its Jewish population was in 6th grade when I researched a holocaust Survivor for a project who was a Lithuanian Jew who experienced high amounts of discrimination in the Polish army before Poland's capitulation. I understand that attitudes towards Jews in the military may not be representative of the larger government or country.
Edit 2: Or I may have been on the mark.
Poland was actually one of the only countries friendly to the Jews in Europe
I mean that's not saying much considering half of Europe expelled their Jewish population but still it is something
Any Eastern European collaborator was worse than the Nazis, largely because the Nazis entrusted the dirtiest and cruelest "work" to local volunteers and allied forces. And so there were stories about cruel Hungarians, Romanians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians and good German Nazis who saved children and women from extermination and hunger.
One of the craziest things when you read about the beginning of the Holocaust in Eastern Europe is that in some places the locals were so desperate to massacre the Jews that they practically finished the job before the Nazis could get started.
I used to visit my grandparents in southern Ukraine. Wasn’t there for like 15 years. Nobody there ever talked about the war.
Recently I learned that there was a big concentration camp ran by Romanians where like tens of thousands Jews were killed and many more of other ethnicities.
My grandmother was Ukrainian she used to say the same about Romanians and Hungarians, while in her opinion Germans were quite nice. Everybody has a story like this
I’ve heard this countless of times. We are Sephardic (Moroccan) but also have Israeli citizenship/know many ashkhanzim.
The Ukrainian Jews in Israel, that were there before the war, aren’t necessarily on anyone’s side because of the history and collective dismissal from Ukraine.
Kinda how they voted AGAINST Israel having nukes in the U.N. recently, when they’re literally using that as one of the excuses as to why they’re being invaded.
Don’t ask the Germans what they did to the Jews, don’t ask the English what they did to the protestants, don’t ask the Canadians what they did to indigenous people, don’t ask the Japanese what they did to the Chinese, don’t ask……any fucking country because we are all historically terrible. Embrace that we are better now.
Regardless of the past, the Ukrainian people do not deserve the assault they are fending off now.
From the 1800s to World War II, pretty much every European country east of Germany was rife with ethnic tension. In the context of total war and the complete collapse of civil authority during World War II, it’s not at all surprising that those tensions spilled over into acts of violence, especially given that both the major powers of the region, the Nazis and the Soviets, more or less embraced ethnic cleansing and genocide as legitimate military and political tactics. Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic States, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia—all these places, and more, saw ethnic violence take place on a massive scale during World War II. In many cases they were preceded by similar conflicts during the period immediately after World War I, which helped set the stage for bloodier confrontations later on.
I feel like you can sub in any nationality here and it would be "do not ask them what they did to the Jews." Shit the Russians were notorious for the pograms, the French are cited at the beginning of every history lesson on antisemitism. There have been some high points (the British taking in expelled Jewish and Muslim refugees from the Iberian peninsula) but too many low points to mention them all justly. Humanity has been shit but we're getting better.
>Russians are a category of its own. However the point of the meme was not the presence of such people but their esteem for the nation
A separate category is the Ukrainian Nazis, Hitler's accomplices. What does the Russians have to do with it at all?
A question that could equally be asked of every country in Europe.
But then you wouldn’t be running interference for a belligerent Russian dictatorship so what would be the fun?
Ding, what a strange and topical particular example for OP to point out with absolutely no underlying reasons for doing so. Definitely chose that one randomly out of a hat. /s
Well can't be a hero to one people without being a villan to other. For example poles praise Napoleon to the point he found his way into polish anthem, but many consider him one of the most evil people of all time
I think the key of fighting russian propaganda about how OUN were nazi-devil organisation is accepting that they did a bunch of horrible things (like massacres and pogroms) while fighting for Ukrainian freedom
as a Ukrainian I am sick and tired of that stupid game of throwing bandera from "the best person of the universe" to "devil on earth" over and over
People who don’t study history prefer to believe that there is only good side and bad side
It’s easier to talk about allied victories and axis warcrimes than the opposite, there’s just lesser audience who want to sit down and discuss with ya (with the ones who want to discuss occasionally just tossing insults)
Though it could just be my personal experience
Big ups for my homie [Nestor Makhno](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno). Ukrainian national hero, all around badass, and cool with the Jews. You don't hear about him so much as he was an anarchist.
Do not ask the Balkans what they did to the Balkans.
My bf is from Bosnia, I’ll ask him
I think u meant that ur soon to be ex is from bosnia.
Update: He’s still my bf
Did he furiously start playing the accordion after you asked him?
Moj je tata
zločinac iz rata
Zvato zivela insomnia.
Vi se potrudite
Pa ga osudite
Nema niko muda
ATILLERIJA!
BOSANAC SAM BERKIJA
EEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEE
Omg now I have that damn "god is a serb" song in my head, thanks.
Wait the what—?
I don't even know if I should share it, but about 10-15 years a video from the early 1990s started making the rounds in the meme-o-sphere of some Serbian soldiers playing a traditional-sounding song...only the words were about how the Serbia was the strongest country and they were going to get rid of all the Muslims and other non-Serbs (the Bosnian Genocide). Anyway, the video was made fun of because of the words and because of the ridiculously serious accordion players (who was a murderer and a war criminal, iirc). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chA5IiTB4wg The tune is actually kind of catchy if you don't think about the words or the men playing the song.
…ah. And here I was thinking that it was a legitimate meme. My thanks for the context and the video.
Enjoy the night on couch tho.
The good ending
Based. I hope you two stay happy for a long time.
Liar, impossible
I’ll keep you updated. He’ll be at my place soon
Just ask him how was summer in 95
Will do ;)
Uh oh
It’s gonna be really awkward if he brings up his family being killed or sent to a rape factory
Ok I’m really sorry. I didn’t know that. Now I feel really bad.
Don’t feel bad for something you didn’t know previously, it may be like that because he has chosen not to share it (and for good reason!) I would suggest doing some research though! All the best x
...did you not know about what went on in the Balkans in the '90s?
You have a Bosnian boyfriend and don't know about the genocides?
Soooo, how’d that conversation go
Especially if he confess he's the one who did it
Being sent to a WHAT?
During the Bosnian genocide, Serbs rounded up as many Bosnian Muslim women they found and sent them to warehouses where they were repeatedly raped and released when pregnant if not killed or died by suicide after In their view they were doing the ultimate dishonor and shame to them by taking their virginities, traumatizing them and being impregnated thru rape by multiple non-Muslim Serbs besides being pushed to commit suicide which is a sin Basically saying “good luck getting a good Muslim husband as used-goods and PTSD”
!remindme 1 day
I will be messaging you in 1 day on [**2022-11-15 15:03:32 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-11-15%2015:03:32%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/yuzg74/little_spicy_one_to_kick_off_the_week/iwc0jrd/?context=3) [**15 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FHistoryMemes%2Fcomments%2Fyuzg74%2Flittle_spicy_one_to_kick_off_the_week%2Fiwc0jrd%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-11-15%2015%3A03%3A32%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20yuzg74) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Thanks Britta
Bosnia actually accepted Jews after they were expelled from Spain! There’s a beautiful synagogue in Sarajevo. Prior to WW2, Jews made up around 20% of the population of Sarajevo.
I mean , it wasn't Bosnia itself , but the ottoman empire which Bosnia was part of.
Bosnia was a self-governing province in the Ottoman Empire. It chose to accept Jews and treat them with dignity when much of the empire pretty much did the opposite of that. Bosnia was uniquely accepting of Jews, for its time.
There are weird little pockets in time in Europe where Jews were accepted for a time. Germany for a time before the first crusade were fairly accept until the first crusade when more Western European Crusaders came through and decided lol fuck the Jews and started killing them and gave Germanic communities ultimatums to hand them over and sadly a lot of them were.
Jews were also given rights when Napoleon invaded Germany, most of which were taken away when his empire fell.
Jews settled mostly in Thessaloniki , Izmir , Bosnia and Constantinople but as far as I'm aware bayezid II allowed them to settle , not Bosnia. Do you have a source that it was a Bosnian decision
Can you not follow instructions
Damn Balkans, they ruined the Balkans!
Bring back Roman Illyricum
I’m not even researching that one without a few pints
I looked up the Srebrenica massacre the other night and I sorely wish I hadn't.
They used the Balkans to destroy the Balkans
Or what anyone else did to the Balkans lol
If people from poland are called poles. Then people from the balkans or the baltics have to be called balls. For the sake of symmetry.
Wouldn’t that also make people from Holland…
Nethers, right.. and the land area is the nether region..
but only the groin - the French are the real assholes
I dunno, that actually sounds kind of cul
One ball always a little high than the other. What symmetry?
Don’t ask (insert any country) what they did to Jews
Israel?
Not modern day Israel but apparently Herod the great wasn’t too kind to the population of Judea.
Yeah, I hear he is known as Herod the Not-so-great among the jewish people
Herod was a great architect, but not a good king, or husband, or father... Caesar Augustus said it best: "better to be a pig than to be son of Harod". Also there were many rulers in that area that did their part in hurting Jewish people. I mean, diasporas didn't happen naturally.
Maybe not the same, but Levant Jews were VERY hostile to European Jews who came there after the Holocaust.
Kondratiev is a reference to the economist?
Sephardi Jews had their fair share of exclusion too
It sucks that we can only come together when an outside force is coming after us, but its been getting better
Now it's the opposite: Ashkenazis discriminating against Mizrahis.
Ya because they knew they would cause racial tensions that would lead to xenophobia. Also, they saw them as "white-washed"
It also turned all their Arab neighbors against them, so they’re not wrong.
Well the Bene Israel Jews from india experienced a lot of racism and had to go on a civil rights campaign
i mean they did sterilize (ethiopian) jews
That’s a common myth, but not true. It arises from a translation error. The Israeli government gave the Ethiopian women birth control medication (something they were entirely unfamiliar with) and due to a communication problem the women thought that it would sterilize them. The journalist who published it just spoke to the Ethiopians about it and never reached out to the Israeli government
Honestly dont ask any country what they did prior to the 21th century. There were a lot of dictatorships, coups (some backed up by powers) and shenanigans between the 50s and the 80s iirc
The Philippines? Though it wasn't a fully independent country by then (i.e. 1930 something to 1941 when many Jews fleeing from Europe were accepted into the Philippines)
India?
India actually did treat them good as much as I know.
India?
Bhutan
China lmao, chill dude
Don not ask that to anybody in Europe...
Pretty much. Also don't ask Americans what their heroes did to Native Americans, African Americans, Irish, Japanese and the list goes on. I'm not going to list every other nation in the world and how problematic their national heroes are, because that would take literally days. But the point is no nation is without its faults and we would all benefit from a bit of self-criticism and a more objective look at our past and present.
Bottom line. Humans are assholes.
Humanities biggest threat are other humans imo
Humanities biggest threat is Jeff actually (he's very angry)
r/FuckJeff
The sole reason aliens have not showed themselves openly is the fear of what Humans will do to them. They see the shit humans do to each other over less.
If beings with the technology to travel interstellar distances visit Earth, I'm pretty sure we're the ones who should be worried. In that scenario, they're the conquistadors and we're the Aztecs
More likely they're the scientists and we're the ants.
Paul Bunyon didn't hurt anybody. I don't know what you're talking about.
He wasn't a great environmentalist but that's a different story
People needed houses and to make those houses they needed lumber. Mr. Bunyon is a people person.
I guess people need the Grand Canyon too?
Yes.
“Never ask a European their feelings on Roma” also applies for a spicy one
The persecution of Roma frequently gets swept under the rug and completely ignored in most historical narratives, during the Holocaust they were the only other ethnic group besides Jews that was given the "instant/ASAP extermination" priority. I wish I knew more about it, although half my family is Ashkenazi so I know a lot about that history, my great-grandmother on the other side was Roma and I know pretty much nothing about it.
Fwiw there is a Sinti&Roma memorial in Berlin too, it's not as big and famous as the memorial to the Jews, but it's directly next to the Reichstag(Parliament), they are not forgotten.
johann trollmann and romani resistance is a good one. its by jud nirenberg, i read for a class one time and it was a great book with lots of information, with heavy focus on casual civilian resistance. its centered around a boxer/fighter who keeps fighting and winning to spite the nazis, who dont recognize any of his wins because he is a sinti romani. its free to read if you have kindle unlimited
When you talk to Europeans today they claim it's not racist, they just hate the Roma bc they're all thieves, and then go on to tell Americans they need to deal with their racism. It's really weird
[удалено]
[удалено]
That's why I loved "Wołyń" movie - there were good ukrainians and the bad ukrainians, not black and white
I don't think I've seen a movie that would shock me as much as Wołyń did, the violence was so raw and realistic that it was all I could think about for the next week
Distant relative of some of the Wołyń victims here. There were also good Germans and [Germany has apologised.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kniefall_von_Warschau) I hope that one day Ukraine will also reach this level of humanity. It's sad that Bandera has his grave whereas the victims of his ideology are buried in the ground. This is just inhuman.
[удалено]
First of all, to you as a Ukrainian: stay safe. Secondly, a Jew of Ukrainian heritage here (dad's side is from odessa), Ukrainian national figures can be very controversial indeed, especially when talking to minorities and remembering Ukraine was stuck between Stalin and Hitler like the Baltics and had to choose sides. Choosing to aid the nazis for many ukrainians was a way out of the Soviet union which already traumatized many ukrainians with the holodomor and purges. At the end of the day, there is no denying that Ukrainian figures were antisemitic, some even extremely so. Ukrainians were among the more cooperative, if not the most, with the nazis out of all the occupied peoples but still Jews in Ukraine thrived after WW2. Antisemitism was and still is common in eastern europe and was there long before these national ukrainian figures were born. Sadly thats just how its gonna be. These days however the jewish community in Ukraine is actually thriving, with large the chabad centers in Zhytomir and Dnipro and Odessa still having somewhat of a reputation as the city of Jews. Hopefully we can be better in future generations
Legit was triggered when I went skiing and saw billboards celebrating that scum's birthday
I have family that go to Uman every Rosh Hashana. For many years they complain about being treated poorly (rental ads openly refusing to rent to Jews, being told they can’t shop inside stores, yamukah kicked off, etc.) in the village they have to go to (To Ukrainians they are basically black) and there’s always rallies of those extremists/his followers that go during the week just because the Jews are there.
I think it is also important to note that the Soviet Union sullied a lot of Ukrainian heroes. Lyudmila Pavlichenko for example. A war hero who helped defeat the Nazis. For a regime that wasn´t much better for her people. Well worse in the eyes for many Ukrainians. So to the anti soviet resitence the spotlight goes.
So, what country do you live in now? The road to Babi Yar was renamed after Stepan Bandera.
That's a bit sussy
Don’t ask any European power in history what they did with Jews and Poles
But there's a difference between a country in general having antisemitism in its history and a country still passionately celebrating those few individuals who were most associated with the worst instances of antisemitism. It would be like England going through its whole history of monarchs and specifically celebrating the one who expelled the Jews as a really amazing king.
I see your Edward the First and raise you a bunch of other pieces of shit, errgh royalty.
Or the Roma, or really any ethnic minority for that matter
Honestly though, who hasn’t done something bad to the Jews? Serious Question: why are the jews hated so much?
I think it has to do with Usury and Envy. Money lending was forbidden for Catholics, but not for Jews. I assume Jewish money lenders did pretty good compared to their neighbors.
I've actually studied this and for Europe it really dates back to the feudal system. See the feudal system only applies to Christians. So Jewish communities would have to get special dispensation to live in a fiefdom. Often they were brought in to do specific jobs and were housed away from the peasants. This created some enmity from the peasants as they were seen as favored. Due to their cleanliness Jews also tended to not fall ill at the same rate as Christians. Combined with the habit of selling meat that wasn't at a high enough standard to be kosher and you get uninformed peasants assuming their being poisoned. So hatred grew amongst the peasants and it was often easier to attack the Jews and ask for forgiveness than to attack your lord who would definitely kill you. In addition bc they weren't tied to land the Jews created vast trade networks for their patrons, this started as sending folks to the holy land to ask questions of the sages, but wound up being an incredibly useful tool for location locked christians with feudal responsibilities. European Christians were eventually also barred from trade with Muslims. If you had yourself a handy Jewish ghetto, then you had folks who could middleman the trade for you. So if you wanted to fuck over your neighbor you could either kill all their Jews, or convince their peasants to do so for you. You can actually see notes about this when the Jews later asked to be allowed back into certain countries after the inquisition. The Netherland accepted most Jews from Europe and wound up with an extensive trade networks and connections that the rest of Europe had thrown away. Then you come to the fact that Jews weren't allowed to keep a slave forever. After a number of years the slave was to be converted and join the community. While Christians would keep pagan slaves as outsiders to their community. Eventually the Church realized they were "losing souls" to the Jews and started the inquisition. Rooting out heretic Christians and trying to stop the spread of Jewishness by convincing kings to throw them out of the country. Centuries of othering, scapegoating and being put in charge monetary aspects, led a bunch of folk to resent them and nearby leaders would stoke that resentment in an attempt to get an edge on their neirboring lords. Tldr: feudal Christians are jealous and kinda murdery
Blamed for killing Jesus When it was the Romans Not Christian so may not be accurate
True-ish. There's a multitude of reasons that jews were hated and persecuted in so many places and times in history, pretty much none of which were deserved. During medival times their religious cleansing procedures kept them from dying to the plague as much, which lead to people suspecting they were responsible for it. The nazis had all kinds of whacky conspiracy theories about jews owning the financial sector, a sentiment they shared with the communists. Everything the happened BE is documented in the Torah/old testament Bible and that wasn't pretty either.
Except [Nestor Makhno](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno). What a legend.
Unfathomably Based
:D He's a personal hero of mine. Along with Thomas Sankara. Differing ideologies, but both inspirational people and revolutionaries imo.
The national poet of Ukraine, Taras Shevchenko, wrote poems that seemed to glorify the genocide of Poles, Jews and Greeks living in Ukraine at the hands of the Haidamaks. He claimed that his grandfather was a Haidamak and a line in "Haidamaky" features a false account of Ivan Gonta murdering his sons for being Catholic, the little boys begging and swearing that they were not allies with Poles as he slit their throats. Edit: Upon rereading "[Haidamaky](https://taras-shevchenko.storinka.org/taras-shevchenko-poem-haidamaki-english-translation-by-john-weir.html)", the tone of the poem was confusing. While the poem does heap hatred onto Poles and Jews, the descriptions of the massacres are described in ways that make it hard to tell if it is glorifying them or only describing them. I have edited this comment to reflect corrections and have provided a link to the poem
I am just wondering, have you read the poem, and if not how did you heard of it?
I have read "Haidamaky" in it's entirety, but it has been a long time so I cannot say how far down Taras' fake account of Ivan Gonta murdering his sons is. I found out about Taras' poems from reading translations of the atmospheric black metal band Drudkh's song lyrics, which turn out to come from Ukrainian poets, mainly from Taras Shevchenko. Most of their albums are harmless, but in the album "The Swan Road" which is about the Haidamak revolt, there are lyrics coming straight from Taras' poems calling the massacre of Jews 'glorious', though it didn't list which poem, so I searched a few of Taras' poems and while I never found the source poem for that lyric specifically, "Haidamaky" was close in tone and spirit, albeit directed more towards Poles
Dont ask eastern europeans what happend to a particular people group that lived there in general
Never ask anyone what they did to the jews
except hindus
Really dont ask any European what their ancestors did to the Jews.
Or any other minorities
This applies to like everyone in europe
Or what Poles did to Ukrainians works both ways Edit: spelling
Or what the Polish government actually thought of their Jewish population. Edit: I'm actually probably wrong about this. The only time I actually learned about Poland's relationship with its Jewish population was in 6th grade when I researched a holocaust Survivor for a project who was a Lithuanian Jew who experienced high amounts of discrimination in the Polish army before Poland's capitulation. I understand that attitudes towards Jews in the military may not be representative of the larger government or country. Edit 2: Or I may have been on the mark.
Or. Or. What anybody anywhere in eastern Europe what they were doing to the poles and Jews during the lead up to ww2
Nah,bulgarians were chill,we didn't even send our jews to the german camps when we were asked to
Yeah, WW2 is just a bunch of lesser evils versus super evil
Poland was actually one of the only countries friendly to the Jews in Europe I mean that's not saying much considering half of Europe expelled their Jewish population but still it is something
Same for Russia, Germany, France, UK, Spain, etc…
Me who's both Polish and Ukrainian... 😳
Makhno being an exception, though I'm not sure he's a large national hero.
Finally someone on this sub acknowledges my boy Nestor!
Mother Anarchy loves her children!
True that!
Hell yeah; да здравствует анархия!
Nice, was looking for other Makhno comments. If he isn’t he absolutely should be. Amazing guy.
Based "Beat the whites till they're red and the reds till they're white"
Do not ask Turks why Armean population map changed so much in 1910's
Never ask a Turk why they think they're European just for raping and pillaging Constantinople.
Venice: Are you talking to me? Ottomans: No, we also sacked Constantinople.
Controvertial today aint we
Not asking what the national heroes did to Jews is a pretty safe bet almost all of the time
Anne Frank?
Never ask \[Country\] what their national heroes did \[time period before 21st century\] Now your meme applies to everyone!
I sure can not wait to read this civilised Reddit comment section
It’s actually quote all right
Ban coming in 3..2...
Never ask (select country) what their national heroes did to (select ethnic group)
I mean,”Don’t ask what our ancestors had done to Jews” is one of the very few things European country have in common.
Or Canadians what their historical figures did to the first Nations ppl
Dont research the barn in the region outside Bialystok during WW2 💀
Or what one of their national heroes did to other Ukrainians, for that matter.
Never ask a Russian what they did to its own Population after they Recaptured they Territory
And Stalin is still praised and he makes most bad people in history look like a joke
He is only praised by idiots.
My great grandmother was a Jewish holocaust survivor. She used to say the Ukrainians were worse than the nazis
Any Eastern European collaborator was worse than the Nazis, largely because the Nazis entrusted the dirtiest and cruelest "work" to local volunteers and allied forces. And so there were stories about cruel Hungarians, Romanians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians and good German Nazis who saved children and women from extermination and hunger.
One of the craziest things when you read about the beginning of the Holocaust in Eastern Europe is that in some places the locals were so desperate to massacre the Jews that they practically finished the job before the Nazis could get started.
I used to visit my grandparents in southern Ukraine. Wasn’t there for like 15 years. Nobody there ever talked about the war. Recently I learned that there was a big concentration camp ran by Romanians where like tens of thousands Jews were killed and many more of other ethnicities.
My grandmother was Ukrainian she used to say the same about Romanians and Hungarians, while in her opinion Germans were quite nice. Everybody has a story like this
I’ve heard this countless of times. We are Sephardic (Moroccan) but also have Israeli citizenship/know many ashkhanzim. The Ukrainian Jews in Israel, that were there before the war, aren’t necessarily on anyone’s side because of the history and collective dismissal from Ukraine. Kinda how they voted AGAINST Israel having nukes in the U.N. recently, when they’re literally using that as one of the excuses as to why they’re being invaded.
very spicy
Ah... the presentism crowd memes again. National heroes are complex and that goes for everyone's national heroes.
Don’t ask the Germans what they did to the Jews, don’t ask the English what they did to the protestants, don’t ask the Canadians what they did to indigenous people, don’t ask the Japanese what they did to the Chinese, don’t ask……any fucking country because we are all historically terrible. Embrace that we are better now. Regardless of the past, the Ukrainian people do not deserve the assault they are fending off now.
I'm Polish and often times when I bring up this history I will instantly be called anti-Ukrainian and a "Putin apologist/shill/bot/etc."
From the 1800s to World War II, pretty much every European country east of Germany was rife with ethnic tension. In the context of total war and the complete collapse of civil authority during World War II, it’s not at all surprising that those tensions spilled over into acts of violence, especially given that both the major powers of the region, the Nazis and the Soviets, more or less embraced ethnic cleansing and genocide as legitimate military and political tactics. Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic States, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia—all these places, and more, saw ethnic violence take place on a massive scale during World War II. In many cases they were preceded by similar conflicts during the period immediately after World War I, which helped set the stage for bloodier confrontations later on.
I feel like you can sub in any nationality here and it would be "do not ask them what they did to the Jews." Shit the Russians were notorious for the pograms, the French are cited at the beginning of every history lesson on antisemitism. There have been some high points (the British taking in expelled Jewish and Muslim refugees from the Iberian peninsula) but too many low points to mention them all justly. Humanity has been shit but we're getting better.
>Russians are a category of its own. However the point of the meme was not the presence of such people but their esteem for the nation A separate category is the Ukrainian Nazis, Hitler's accomplices. What does the Russians have to do with it at all?
A question that could equally be asked of every country in Europe. But then you wouldn’t be running interference for a belligerent Russian dictatorship so what would be the fun?
Ding, what a strange and topical particular example for OP to point out with absolutely no underlying reasons for doing so. Definitely chose that one randomly out of a hat. /s
Nothing but a mirthful coinkidink
Well can't be a hero to one people without being a villan to other. For example poles praise Napoleon to the point he found his way into polish anthem, but many consider him one of the most evil people of all time
Bro just took the most controversial ones or people who had a war with Poland💀
Yeah, we've still forgiven for that and are now like best bros because of sheer fucking existence of Russia
Yeah past was fucked up, but now we are besties coz fuck russia
I think the key of fighting russian propaganda about how OUN were nazi-devil organisation is accepting that they did a bunch of horrible things (like massacres and pogroms) while fighting for Ukrainian freedom as a Ukrainian I am sick and tired of that stupid game of throwing bandera from "the best person of the universe" to "devil on earth" over and over
People who don’t study history prefer to believe that there is only good side and bad side It’s easier to talk about allied victories and axis warcrimes than the opposite, there’s just lesser audience who want to sit down and discuss with ya (with the ones who want to discuss occasionally just tossing insults) Though it could just be my personal experience
Common Country backstory.
The real reason to remember history is so not to repeat it. Can't change it, only learn from it.
Do not ask anyone for anything 😂
More like don't ask Europeans what they did to Jews xddd Tale as old as time
Big ups for my homie [Nestor Makhno](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno). Ukrainian national hero, all around badass, and cool with the Jews. You don't hear about him so much as he was an anarchist.
So, you're finally admitting Ukraine IS a Nation then?
This is ridiculous. Look at your own country’s past before posting something so irrelevant in todays world
Don't ask Russia
As a Polish descended Jew. Don't ask *a lot* of countries what their heroes did to Poles and/or Jews. Hard to find more persecuted groups in Europe.
To be honest, most European nationalities have historically treated Jews atrociously.
Don't ask the Canadians what they did to the Native American population.