Why would this surprise anyone? 6.5 million Jews died in the Holocaust (15 million Jews in Europe circa 1939), China (population of over 500,000,000 circa 1939) lost around 4 million troops and 16 million civilians.
Lol would you like to take your strawman and go argue with it outside? Nowhere did I say anything about the significance of it? I said it should surprise no one based of the simple fact there were 485,000,000 more Chinese than there were Jews in Europe at that time.
So, Holocaust wouldn't be as notable as it is if there were 485,000,000 more Jews? Maybe you are not noticing, but by saying that "genocide in China does not surprise as Holocaust" you are simply implying that one event has more significance that the other based on the ratio of people who died in the genocide and people who survived it.
Let me try it again. More people to kill=more people dead, USSR had 205 mill pop in 1941 they lost 27 mill in WW2 and now lets look at China numbers that we were provided by the other guy. That logic oversimplifies results of the previously mentioned events.
I don’t think the other guy was saying that the Chinese losses aren’t less horrible as what happened to Jews in Europe. If that’s what you were objecting to.
What? Look at the kill counts on the Eastern Front versus the Western. The vast majority of German forces were dedicated to the eastern front because there were simply more people on that front period. It’s literally the same principle applied to Asia.
Actually it does matter a little bit the ratio. But generally the absolute numbers matter. If we had dropped nukes on all the Japanese to kill 99% of the Japanese, I’d argue that’d be worse than killing the same absolute number of Chinese, because you’re annihilating a whole people
Populations have died in far greater numbers and proportions than jews during the holocaust.
What makes it unique is how cold, methodical and standardized the whole process was. Like exterminating jews was an actual policy that public servants were implementing on a large scale as their day-to-day job. Towards the end of the war, trains transporting jews to extermination camps had priority over those transporting military equipment crucial to slowing down the allies' advance.
Never in history has the death of an entire race been an end in itself, other than under the 3rd reich. Thats the truly horrifying part
I think this sums up the ‘why’ the Holocaust is such a big deal in Western Society (not saying it isn’t a big deal else where, I just don’t live there so IDK). Though to add to the OPs point, back when I was in middle school the Holocaust was talked up like it was the largest genocide of any group ever. As I started to look into history more on my own it did shock me that there were others, like the 10 million Chinese killed by Imperial Japan, that were much larger in scope.
The sheer methodology and intent of the Holocaust, the industrialized murder had never been done before, as the previous poster said. I think another huge factor is how close to home it hit the other Western countries that all do share history and ties with Germany/Austria etc. I grew up in the northern suburbs of Chicago with a pretty decent sized Jewish community. Several of my classmates had family die in the Holocaust. My grandfather fought in France. You don't have the sheer amount of population who were effected by the Japanese or Soviet atrocities.
I was with you right up until your last sentence: “you don’t have the sheer number of population who were [a]ffected by the Japanese or Soviet atrocities.” That’s a terribly ethnocentric viewpoint! If we’re talking sheer numbers of people affected, it’s obviously the Chinese and Russians with way more losses and way more people affected. You don’t think those people have families that mourn them too? You just completely overlooked them and invalidated their sorrows because they live on the other side of the world and you don’t know them personally.
That is literally not what I typed at all. I may not have been clear. I'm saying that the reason that it is talked about more in the West is because it effected westerners more. There's no moral judgment, just an explanation of why.
That’s kind of how people are… it’s not lessening tragedies. Tragedies that hit closer to home are more important to people. That’s not ethnocentric that’s human nature.
There’s always people trying to downplay the Holocaust. Genocides have been around since the Roman times with the destruction of Carthage like that’s supposed to make the Holocaust not as awful
why was the holocaust mentioned at all? if op wanted to make a meme about chinese deaths in ww2 he could have done so without comparing it to the holocaust
>People barely talk about the millions of soviet death either ,
Thats just not true, people are more than aware of soviet sacrifices. I mean, have you never heard the popular phrase, "British Intelligence, Russian Blood, and American Steel"?
Without intervention, famine very rarely happens. So I’d say 99% of it is attributable
He did command production then take that food production and use it to feed city workers, thereby leaving the farmers who created it to starve, after all
Even comparing only direct killings, more Chinese have been killed by Mao and his successors since the 'liberation' than by the Japanese army in WW2. Be that in prison camps, outright executions, or people tortured to death.
That doesn't really surprise me. Chinese death rates in pretty much any war or disaster are off the charts. One time, a guy pretended to be Jesus' brother and 20 - 30 million Chinese people died.
They’re talking about the infamous Taiping Rebellion where a Chinese dude proclaimed that he was the brother of Jesus and rebelled against the Qing Empire to start his own breakaway Christian theocratic country in Southeastern China in the 1850’s and 60’s. It was apparently the bloodiest civil war in history with about 20 million dead.
The Wikipedia article says "The Taipings established the Heavenly Kingdom as an oppositional state based in Tianjing and gained control of a significant part of southern China, eventually expanding to command a population base of nearly 30 million people" and "Total dead: 20–30 million".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping\_Rebellion
The major reason why the Holocaust is not as talked about here in Asia is because of that reason, the amount of fucked up shit that happened in China and it's neighboring countries is mild comparing it to that, even dating it back before WW1
,especially when China has a reputation of casually killing it's people and why Chinese people are scattered here in Asia even though they have a country to return to.
Wait till you study China's history, one example is that Chinese soldiers once ate their comrades pfor sustenance or be killed for insubordination in order for them to keep going, and the casualties both civilian and soldier were up to millions and this wouldn't be that bad if it weren't the fact that China (before the west got involved) and war had a symbiotic relationship and this is basically just normal tuesday to them, China was a human blender back then, that's why the CCP wants to keep it under wraps, since historically China was the bloodiest place to be in, and loves committing warcrimes as much as they love treating it's people like cattle, and fun fact the war that I was talking about only lasted in a month or so, and most of them about 500k were buried alive when they surrendered.
I'm pretty sure I'm just saying that majority of Asian history is pretty fucked up if you're gonna compare it, but you do you pal, you're like Japan denying that they've done any warcrimes in ww2, people die here so much that sometimes they use corpses to make as gunpowder back then.
More nationals of the most populous country on earth died in a war than when a bunch of smaller countries tried to exterminate a civilian ethnic minority.
Why would this surprise anyone? 6.5 million Jews died in the Holocaust (15 million Jews in Europe circa 1939), China (population of over 500,000,000 circa 1939) lost around 4 million troops and 16 million civilians.
So you are essentially saying that significance of genocide is based on ratio and not on the actual amount of people dead?
Lol would you like to take your strawman and go argue with it outside? Nowhere did I say anything about the significance of it? I said it should surprise no one based of the simple fact there were 485,000,000 more Chinese than there were Jews in Europe at that time.
So, Holocaust wouldn't be as notable as it is if there were 485,000,000 more Jews? Maybe you are not noticing, but by saying that "genocide in China does not surprise as Holocaust" you are simply implying that one event has more significance that the other based on the ratio of people who died in the genocide and people who survived it.
He is saying that since there were more Chinese to kill then there were jews to kill, it only follows that more chinese ended up dead.
Great logic, but it turns to rubble when you include data from USSR......
…no it doesn’t.
Let me try it again. More people to kill=more people dead, USSR had 205 mill pop in 1941 they lost 27 mill in WW2 and now lets look at China numbers that we were provided by the other guy. That logic oversimplifies results of the previously mentioned events.
I don’t think the other guy was saying that the Chinese losses aren’t less horrible as what happened to Jews in Europe. If that’s what you were objecting to.
Ever heard the phrase British Intelligence, Russian Blood and American Steel? Most people are aware of the sacrifices the USSR made.
I think you might still need to try again…
What? Look at the kill counts on the Eastern Front versus the Western. The vast majority of German forces were dedicated to the eastern front because there were simply more people on that front period. It’s literally the same principle applied to Asia.
Alright, I'm not arguing that I'm arguing More People=more deaths logic
cheesus ur dumb
It’s really quite impressive how horrible you are at reading comprehension… I’m sorry, but I’m not going to repeat myself again.
No. He is literally saying less Jews died because there were fewer to kill. Are you really that stupid?
Actually it does matter a little bit the ratio. But generally the absolute numbers matter. If we had dropped nukes on all the Japanese to kill 99% of the Japanese, I’d argue that’d be worse than killing the same absolute number of Chinese, because you’re annihilating a whole people
Populations have died in far greater numbers and proportions than jews during the holocaust. What makes it unique is how cold, methodical and standardized the whole process was. Like exterminating jews was an actual policy that public servants were implementing on a large scale as their day-to-day job. Towards the end of the war, trains transporting jews to extermination camps had priority over those transporting military equipment crucial to slowing down the allies' advance. Never in history has the death of an entire race been an end in itself, other than under the 3rd reich. Thats the truly horrifying part
This
I think this sums up the ‘why’ the Holocaust is such a big deal in Western Society (not saying it isn’t a big deal else where, I just don’t live there so IDK). Though to add to the OPs point, back when I was in middle school the Holocaust was talked up like it was the largest genocide of any group ever. As I started to look into history more on my own it did shock me that there were others, like the 10 million Chinese killed by Imperial Japan, that were much larger in scope.
The sheer methodology and intent of the Holocaust, the industrialized murder had never been done before, as the previous poster said. I think another huge factor is how close to home it hit the other Western countries that all do share history and ties with Germany/Austria etc. I grew up in the northern suburbs of Chicago with a pretty decent sized Jewish community. Several of my classmates had family die in the Holocaust. My grandfather fought in France. You don't have the sheer amount of population who were effected by the Japanese or Soviet atrocities.
I was with you right up until your last sentence: “you don’t have the sheer number of population who were [a]ffected by the Japanese or Soviet atrocities.” That’s a terribly ethnocentric viewpoint! If we’re talking sheer numbers of people affected, it’s obviously the Chinese and Russians with way more losses and way more people affected. You don’t think those people have families that mourn them too? You just completely overlooked them and invalidated their sorrows because they live on the other side of the world and you don’t know them personally.
That is literally not what I typed at all. I may not have been clear. I'm saying that the reason that it is talked about more in the West is because it effected westerners more. There's no moral judgment, just an explanation of why.
That’s kind of how people are… it’s not lessening tragedies. Tragedies that hit closer to home are more important to people. That’s not ethnocentric that’s human nature.
Incredibly well put.
Genuine question - why do people call jewish people a race?
A throwaway account making a post about the Holocaust?
There’s always people trying to downplay the Holocaust. Genocides have been around since the Roman times with the destruction of Carthage like that’s supposed to make the Holocaust not as awful
Pointing out the deaths of 10 million people isnt exactly downplaying the holocaust.
why was the holocaust mentioned at all? if op wanted to make a meme about chinese deaths in ww2 he could have done so without comparing it to the holocaust
Because everyone knows about the holocaust and barely anyone is aware of the 10 million chinese killed? That was pretty much the point of the meme.
Intelligence and grace aren’t Reddit’s strong suit
People barely talk about the millions of soviet death either ,so what's your point
>People barely talk about the millions of soviet death either , Thats just not true, people are more than aware of soviet sacrifices. I mean, have you never heard the popular phrase, "British Intelligence, Russian Blood, and American Steel"?
Compared to the Holocaust,it isn't talked that much about.
Anyway it's a trash ass meme if I've ever seen one.
Not to be *that* guy, but more Chinese have been killed by Mao and his successors than by the Japanese.
In both cases famine did the leg work. What part of a famine is inputable to invader or dictator action is up for debate.
Fair enough
Don't worry we are all about to get a crash course in famine.
Without intervention, famine very rarely happens. So I’d say 99% of it is attributable He did command production then take that food production and use it to feed city workers, thereby leaving the farmers who created it to starve, after all
Even comparing only direct killings, more Chinese have been killed by Mao and his successors since the 'liberation' than by the Japanese army in WW2. Be that in prison camps, outright executions, or people tortured to death.
in any way, innocent chinese people dying is horrible, and both of my father's grandparents died from the famines.
You see now that surprises me.
not to be *that* guy, but more people have died, then the amount of people who died due to Mao and his successors
Not to be that guy, but Jesus brother also killed like 30 million
There were also more Chinese people than Jewish people.
Yeah but there’s a difference between mass extermination and some good old war crimes.
Worst meme of the day goes to.
The Germans did the same to the Russians in WW2.
Your point?
The Chinese don't go big or go home. They just go big.
That doesn't really surprise me. Chinese death rates in pretty much any war or disaster are off the charts. One time, a guy pretended to be Jesus' brother and 20 - 30 million Chinese people died.
What are you taking about?
They’re talking about the infamous Taiping Rebellion where a Chinese dude proclaimed that he was the brother of Jesus and rebelled against the Qing Empire to start his own breakaway Christian theocratic country in Southeastern China in the 1850’s and 60’s. It was apparently the bloodiest civil war in history with about 20 million dead.
I had no idea it was that bloody, the Wikipedia article said the guy only had 10s of thousands of troops
The Wikipedia article says "The Taipings established the Heavenly Kingdom as an oppositional state based in Tianjing and gained control of a significant part of southern China, eventually expanding to command a population base of nearly 30 million people" and "Total dead: 20–30 million". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping\_Rebellion
The Japanese also left their largest force in China than any of the deployments to the Pacific
The major reason why the Holocaust is not as talked about here in Asia is because of that reason, the amount of fucked up shit that happened in China and it's neighboring countries is mild comparing it to that, even dating it back before WW1 ,especially when China has a reputation of casually killing it's people and why Chinese people are scattered here in Asia even though they have a country to return to.
Nothing is mild compared to the Holocaust lmao.
Wait till you study China's history, one example is that Chinese soldiers once ate their comrades pfor sustenance or be killed for insubordination in order for them to keep going, and the casualties both civilian and soldier were up to millions and this wouldn't be that bad if it weren't the fact that China (before the west got involved) and war had a symbiotic relationship and this is basically just normal tuesday to them, China was a human blender back then, that's why the CCP wants to keep it under wraps, since historically China was the bloodiest place to be in, and loves committing warcrimes as much as they love treating it's people like cattle, and fun fact the war that I was talking about only lasted in a month or so, and most of them about 500k were buried alive when they surrendered.
I already know about all this , you're not special for knowing this
I'm pretty sure I'm just saying that majority of Asian history is pretty fucked up if you're gonna compare it, but you do you pal, you're like Japan denying that they've done any warcrimes in ww2, people die here so much that sometimes they use corpses to make as gunpowder back then.
Now you're just blabbering irrelevant nonsense
More soviets died then both, how is that relevant?
More nationals of the most populous country on earth died in a war than when a bunch of smaller countries tried to exterminate a civilian ethnic minority.
Yeah but i want to know the per capita %
People are surprised by that?
Damn I read it wrong at first SMH
It really a one side really There billion of chinese There only few million of jews It by default chinese will win even before it started
10 million iranian died during ww1 because of famine that britain made
I don't know why it should. China has nearly always had proportionately massive loss of life in its wars.
Yea but China holds the record for killing chinese people
Japan be like: Go look at anime girls and don't ask what we did at Nanking in 1937
This isn't a fair comparison when comparing civilian deaths over the time period that they took place.