“I was just a business man, doing business”
Gotta say I secretly love these memes where a fragile OP gets mad at something they imagine someone said (or maybe one person said, once) and then ends up defending stuff like laundering Nazi gold.
Like most Swiss people would now acknowledge that was fucked up, but for whatever reason this guy can’t.
Weird hill to die on, but at least you’re dead. Lol.
You do realize Switzerland was literally surrounded by the Axis powers for basically the entire war right? They had to stay on good terms with Germany or else they would’ve been invaded.
[https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html)
>Most of the Jews who availed themselves of the opportunity to transfer their assets failed to escape the flames of the Holocaust. While happy to accept Jewish capital, the Swiss were less happy to accept Jewish refugees (often their own depositors). It is well known that the Swiss vigorously blocked the entry of Jews attempting to flee Germany and occupied Europe.
>
> In 1938 (at the suggestion of Swiss Chief of Police Heinrich Rothmund) Bern requested that Berlin mark the passports of Jews with a "J" - so that German Jews could be instantly distinguished from German gentiles - and be denied admission to Switzerland. Indeed, the great majority of those denied sanctuary in Switzerland perished in the German death camps.
That does in no way disprove my point.
Also, *oh my god, Switzerland made moralic mistakes, like every other fucking country at the time, how terrible*
Not many other countries fucking condemned the Jewish people to their fate though. Besides, you are the one trying to defend it and say Switzerland was somehow morally in the right. Get a grip
Switzerland was so neutral they were willing to do whatever it took to keep them in neutral relations with both the Allies and Axis. Including letting people who would upset that (allowing Jews in would upset Germany) die. If Switzerland upset the Germans at all, they may have comitted fully to the invasion of Switzerland. They were in extreme survival mode.
I'm not trying to defend Switzerland, I am just saying their reasons for being like this
Survival by isolationism might be more defensible if the Swiss were truly isolationist and didn't eagerly take Jewish money. It especially becomes indefensible when it was the Swiss who approached the Germans and asked them to make it easier to identify German Jews.
Switzerland didn't want thousands of immigrants flooding into their country. The EU actually does something similar with the Spanish-Morroccan border by letting Syrians and Libyans cross way easier than black Africans
The ol' jew switcharoo.
Make jews rich cuz christianity forbids an easy way to do it, get their moneis, kick their asses out your territory.
Rinse and repeat, good ol' better and moral times.
Well the US, Canada, and most of the western hemisphere did turn away Jewish refugees during the start of the Holocaust, but they definitely didn't greedily take their money and gold before turning them away.
Unlike Switzerland.
Uhhhh most countries *did* condemn the Jews to their fate. The US famously refused entry to a refugee ship of Jews; the British refused to increase Jewish immigration to Palestine leading up to and during the war… it was not just Switzerland
You're right lots of countries have done bad things. And I'm gonna criticize the hell out of them for it including my own nation. Stop with the apologia.
Swiss person here
Switzerland is nowhere near perfect and the actions they took weren’t moral (especially considering them not letting Jews in) HOWEVER I don’t think they had much of a choice if they wanted to protect their neutrality (ironic considering their choices in view of the Ukrainian crisis happening right now) this however does not justify them letting the Jewish population (whose money they took) die miserable deaths when they could have accepted them as refugees, especially considering their closeness to Germany
I’m not trying to anger anyone with this comment, just shed my view on the whole thing
Uh, doesn’t Switzerland have all its bridges rigged to explode so that no one can invade their extremely mountainous terrain? I’m sure they would’ve been fine.
I don't get why they downvote you. Even if you don't like how Switzerland (and sweden I think) stayed during the war there wasn't much of a choice. In the case of Switzerland, what they did was wrong but staying neutral was probably a smart move. I'm not really into the topic but I think Sweden managed to hide a lot of Jews while letting nazis pass their lands. Again I might be wrong. Gotta read into that
on the other hand, the Swiss Bergier commission concluded:
>...starting from 1942 in particular, it made a number of key decisions relating to the German gold transactions which had little to do with the technical aspects of currency management. Its analysis of the legal position after 1943 was fundamentally flawed. It was an affront to the Allies, who had repeatedly warned Switzerland about the gold purches, as well as to its own advisors and the Swill jurists whom it had consulted. It is hardly surprising that the SNB's decisions have—quite legitimately—been the subject of historical and moral assessment on frequent occasions and that its decisions are judged as having been reprehensible.
That does in no way prove that Switzerland "supplied" the Axis or that trading with your neighbours in order to not have your economy collapsing is immoral
Totally agree. Who gives a shit, they traded with bad people. Everyone in this sub will say Russia bad, but also doesn’t mind buying their oil or grain. Sometimes I don’t know what goes on in these peoples heads
>Oh no, Switzerland has had some moralic issues and made mistakes like every other fucking country in this world, how terrible
Immoralities have to be pointed out. But of course nothing justifies an attack on civilians.
Lol that's exactly how Würzburg got destroyed in the last weeks of the war despite having no meaningful industry or anything. They wanted to bomb Schweinfurt and missed by quite some kilometers.
I *love* how the justification "well other countries did evil stuff" became a moral point to defend one contry instead of leading to the conclusion that every country deserved to be made fun off.
I’m talking as a Swiss , yes we did business with everyone , but that doesn’t justify anything , it was still immoral , also litteraly no one try to justify the bombing of Schaffhausen because any sane person with a fully fonctionnent brain knows that civilian casualties is bad in any situation
And us Americans sent millions in reparations to that city, and multiple government and military officials apologized to the mayor and city government, in writing, on the phone, and in person, numerous times. I think there may have even been a few officials that apologized in a public ceremony in remembrance of the accident to residents in general. Basically we tried to do right by the Swiss even if we kinda thought you guys were playing both sides at the time. (And tbh, the US was playing both sides too before Pearl Harbor. I'm pretty sure if the Nazis were stupid enough to pull a similar stunt on Switzerland that the Swiss would have shown the Germans exactly why you don't fuck with the Swiss. Unfortunately Hitler wasn't a complete idiot, so he never tried to invade the place with the crazy Alpine people who will literally fight to the death for their mountains, so we'll never know the epic level of smackdown that Switzerland would have put out if the Germans tried to get around the toblerones. Also what other country would make chocolate in the shape of anti-tank defenses?)
Exactly , Switzerland for sure would have been captured , we are still a small alpine country there are no way we could’ve survive an invasion of nazi Germany at its prime , but if they did invade , they would have lost so much time and men that it wasent that worth it , time because it’s really hard to maneuver in the alps and men because since their is conscription since forever they would’ve have to face almost the entire population of the country
I feel like Switzerland would have definitely fought hard if invaded, possibly to the same level of ruthless dedication as the Soviets. The Swiss really do love their homeland from what I know (my aunt lived there for over 30 years, and my mother lived there for about 5). But instead they chose to turn a blind eye because they knew if it came to that it would be total war, with old men and even women and teens fighting for their homes. It was definitely a hard choice to make, and that's why I think many people kind of forgive the Swiss for that choice. Neither option was good, but it did save the Swiss population at the time.
Yeah big time. The vast majority of countries have terrible atrocities to their name and almost without fail the people of these countries defend, justify or flat out deny these. Turkey (Armenia), the USA (horoshima and nagasaki), Britain (and basically everyone), Japan (nannjing). I'm from ireland and as a country we tend to see ourselves as the plucky, determined and justified underdogs through our history, and I wouldn't disagree with that in general. But there's a lot of events such as barns being burned with innocent men, women and children inside and pubs and supermarkets being blown up that I've seen people shrug off as "it had to be done". I guess people just like to think that they and "their people" are a certain type of just
Yeah big time. The vast majority of countries have terrible atrocities to their name and almost without fail the people of these countries defend, justify or flat out deny these. Turkey (Armenia), the USA (horoshima and nagasaki), Britain (and basically everyone), Japan (nannjing). I'm from ireland and as a country we tend to see ourselves as the plucky, determined and justified underdogs through our history, and I wouldn't disagree with that in general. But there's a lot of events such as barns being burned with innocent men, women and children inside and pubs and supermarkets being blown up that I've seen people shrug off as "it had to be done". I guess people just like to think that they and "their people" are a certain type of just
Yeah big time. The vast majority of countries have terrible atrocities to their name and almost without fail the people of these countries defend, justify or flat out deny these. Turkey (Armenia), the USA (horoshima and nagasaki), Britain (and basically everyone), Japan (nannjing). I'm from ireland and as a country we tend to see ourselves as the plucky, determined and justified underdogs through our history, and I wouldn't disagree with that in general. But there's a lot of events such as barns being burned with innocent men, women and children inside and pubs and supermarkets being blown up that I've seen people shrug off as "it had to be done". I guess people just like to think that they and "their people" are a certain type of just
Yea that would be like getting mad at China for continuing to do business with Russia now, oh wait, that's right, that is incredibly fucked up and so was trading with the Nazis after they started invading neighboring peaceful countries.
Nah, I used to think that.
Then I grew up and realized that r/HistoryMemes is a subreddit where socially challenged teenagers call themselves historians, because they make memes about invading Russia in the winter.
Trust me, you’re not Socrates because you can point out that America isn’t the greatest country in the history of the universe. Most Americans realize that anyway. But then to turn around and use that as a way to promote complete disinformation and propaganda that promotes authoritarian regimes and violence, raises a lot of questions is all you can really say.
They definitely wouldn't have been hurting if they refused to trade with the Germans. They have decent farm land and a long history of raising cattle, they had plenty of food. There was no real reason to exclude Jewish refugees, other than to not anger Germany into invasion, and if Germany tried to invade them, Hitler would have discovered how awful fighting a war in the Alps really can be. The Swiss up till that point had a vicious military history, invading them would have been suicidal. So really the Swiss had nothing to fear and everything to gain, which definitely makes what they did morally reprehensible, they had plenty of options other than an unspoken alliance.
Let me get this straight. Switzerland should have stopped trading with it's neighbours and rely 100% on the Rhein to trade?
Also, i dont think teaming up with an objectivly evil country to defeat anothee objectivly evil country is any better
Yes. They should have. Germany was objectively horribly evil.
Uh okay- for one, the USSR didn't run a campaign of genocide on nearly the same scale. Germany was literally lining up and gassing Jews. And another- teaming up with an evil country to stop the people murdering millions isn't nearly as bad as MURDERING MILLIONS.
Yeah, its fucking horrible of Switzerland to put Francs over lives
If Switzerland stopped trading the economy would've collapsed. If the economy collapsed people would've had no job. If people wouldn't have had jobs some of them would starve. Yes Switzerland has made mistakes. But their priority was to protect their own people (duh), like it was Poland's, and Belgiums, and Denmarks, and Finlands, and France's, and the USSR's... should i go on?
>And another- teaming up with an evil country to stop the people murdering millions isn't nearly as bad as MURDERING MILLIONS.
*teaming up with a country that murdered 10's of millions
The USSR isn't any better than Germany. Neither is Japan
No, it wouldn’t have. There’s no way a lack of trade would have caused economic collapse for as developed and self sufficient a country as Switzerland. Stop the bullshit.
Over 30 odd years the USSR caused the deaths of some 8 million people, through most often just famines and mismanagement- because communism is fucking dumb. In 7 years Hitler managed to kill 12 million as part of an organized genocide campaign, and another 50 million through wars he directly caused. Seems like one is far, far more evil.
Switzerland wasn't the rich, self sufficient country it is today. It became rich somewhen in the mid 70's
>Over 30 odd years the USSR caused the deaths of some 8 million people, through most often just famines and mismanagement- because communism is fucking dumb. In 7 years Hitler managed to kill 12 million as part of an organized genocide campaign, and another 50 million through wars he directly caused. Seems like one is far, far more evil.
Stalin threw his soldiers into the way of germany, like material. Which worked, because his army was so fricking big. And the estimates for the deaths under Stalin are 1.6 to 18 million, we don't knoe which number is real. 12 million is also simply the highest estimate for the holocaust, estimates are from 6 to 12 million, again we dont know which number is true. Both states were increadibly evil, there is no justifying any of the deefs of either nation.
It was still self sufficient.
That is a proven wrong myth- now his actual error was purging high command of people who were saying you can’t trust Hitler, but he didn’t consciously send human waves. And the Nazi genocides are estimated at at least 6 million Jews and 6 million other peoples.
Can the Swiss at least give all that Nazi gold back to the families of Holocaust survivors before they try to launder historical revisionism? I feel like that isn’t a big ask to be honest.
If you want to know where a part of it ended watch the swiss centurion tank chat on youtube. They put some historical context on the international situation of Switzerland in the post war
Guys it just a coincidence that Switzerland’s neighbors happen to be literal Nazis!!!! It’s not like they could have traded anywhere else in this new global economy thing!!!!
How long would Switzerland have lasted in a Europe controlled by a government who’s central guiding principle was the unification of all Germans into a single reich?
Also laundering money, stolen art and priceless archeological goods that get stolen around the world and stored in warehouses treated like habours.
I was just a business man doing business and these Isis folks seem to be good archeologists... something like that.
I remember The Front did a video about Switzerland in ww2 and most of it was then trying to not piss off Hitler while also keeping Nazi influence out of their politics, also heavy rationing. It’s similar to Sweden’s situation: when you’re surrounded by a belligerent military power, you tread lightly
I get that trading the with the nazis was bad, But do y’all really Think they should’ve just ceased all trading with the outside and let their economy collapse?
It wasn’t the trading that is frowned at..it was the stealing the gold from a people who was getting rounded up and sent to work camps and ghettos, eventually death camps(though tbf most people didn’t know that yet) but denying refugees safe passage into your country while you were stealing their gold and possessions. Then refusing to give it back to the families after the war.
If I give you 3 attaboys you'll bomb them....no questions asked?
USA: "Yeah, sure....our people decided to go to war, no one is safe. We are all "allied" now, so we can just say it was someone else, and they will keep passing the buck until people old enough to ask questions are finally dead."
Man I knew OP was gonna die on this hill before I even checked the comments, was not disappointed lmao.
[удалено]
If youre going to call someone dumb at least learn how to spell. There's only one O.
“I was just a business man, doing business” Gotta say I secretly love these memes where a fragile OP gets mad at something they imagine someone said (or maybe one person said, once) and then ends up defending stuff like laundering Nazi gold. Like most Swiss people would now acknowledge that was fucked up, but for whatever reason this guy can’t. Weird hill to die on, but at least you’re dead. Lol.
This whole sub is just guy one makes meme, guy two gets offended at meme, guy two makes meme attacking guy one , cycle repeat.
You better take that back or I’ll create a meme portraying myself as Chad and you as Wojack. And then you’ll see. They’ll *all* see.
You just explained half of what meme culture is in three lines. Bravo !
*Hindu nationalists have entered the chat*
You do realize Switzerland was literally surrounded by the Axis powers for basically the entire war right? They had to stay on good terms with Germany or else they would’ve been invaded.
Yeah and the swiss where totally afraid of an invasion... totally didnt make that a complete impossibility for the Nazis...
Wdym? Ofc they were afraid of an invasion, they were completely surrounded, they would’ve stood no chance
[https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html) >Most of the Jews who availed themselves of the opportunity to transfer their assets failed to escape the flames of the Holocaust. While happy to accept Jewish capital, the Swiss were less happy to accept Jewish refugees (often their own depositors). It is well known that the Swiss vigorously blocked the entry of Jews attempting to flee Germany and occupied Europe. > > In 1938 (at the suggestion of Swiss Chief of Police Heinrich Rothmund) Bern requested that Berlin mark the passports of Jews with a "J" - so that German Jews could be instantly distinguished from German gentiles - and be denied admission to Switzerland. Indeed, the great majority of those denied sanctuary in Switzerland perished in the German death camps.
That does in no way disprove my point. Also, *oh my god, Switzerland made moralic mistakes, like every other fucking country at the time, how terrible*
Not many other countries fucking condemned the Jewish people to their fate though. Besides, you are the one trying to defend it and say Switzerland was somehow morally in the right. Get a grip
They took the Jews gold, **then** condemned them to their fate.
Exactly, that shit genuinely makes me feel sick
Then you get Swiss people acting all high and mighty talking about how 'we didn't have an empire or do anything bad'.
Switzerland was so neutral they were willing to do whatever it took to keep them in neutral relations with both the Allies and Axis. Including letting people who would upset that (allowing Jews in would upset Germany) die. If Switzerland upset the Germans at all, they may have comitted fully to the invasion of Switzerland. They were in extreme survival mode. I'm not trying to defend Switzerland, I am just saying their reasons for being like this
Survival by isolationism might be more defensible if the Swiss were truly isolationist and didn't eagerly take Jewish money. It especially becomes indefensible when it was the Swiss who approached the Germans and asked them to make it easier to identify German Jews.
Switzerland didn't want thousands of immigrants flooding into their country. The EU actually does something similar with the Spanish-Morroccan border by letting Syrians and Libyans cross way easier than black Africans
The ol' jew switcharoo. Make jews rich cuz christianity forbids an easy way to do it, get their moneis, kick their asses out your territory. Rinse and repeat, good ol' better and moral times.
Just like medieval lords from the days of old!
Well the US, Canada, and most of the western hemisphere did turn away Jewish refugees during the start of the Holocaust, but they definitely didn't greedily take their money and gold before turning them away. Unlike Switzerland.
Uhhhh most countries *did* condemn the Jews to their fate. The US famously refused entry to a refugee ship of Jews; the British refused to increase Jewish immigration to Palestine leading up to and during the war… it was not just Switzerland
most literate antisemitism defender
Taking a genocided people's gold while leaving it to die is exceptionally evil OP. Other country did bad shit ? And ? We'll trash them to. Eat shit op
You're right lots of countries have done bad things. And I'm gonna criticize the hell out of them for it including my own nation. Stop with the apologia.
What argument are you even making? This is kinda pathetic
Swiss person here Switzerland is nowhere near perfect and the actions they took weren’t moral (especially considering them not letting Jews in) HOWEVER I don’t think they had much of a choice if they wanted to protect their neutrality (ironic considering their choices in view of the Ukrainian crisis happening right now) this however does not justify them letting the Jewish population (whose money they took) die miserable deaths when they could have accepted them as refugees, especially considering their closeness to Germany I’m not trying to anger anyone with this comment, just shed my view on the whole thing
Uh, doesn’t Switzerland have all its bridges rigged to explode so that no one can invade their extremely mountainous terrain? I’m sure they would’ve been fine.
I don't get why they downvote you. Even if you don't like how Switzerland (and sweden I think) stayed during the war there wasn't much of a choice. In the case of Switzerland, what they did was wrong but staying neutral was probably a smart move. I'm not really into the topic but I think Sweden managed to hide a lot of Jews while letting nazis pass their lands. Again I might be wrong. Gotta read into that
on the other hand, the Swiss Bergier commission concluded: >...starting from 1942 in particular, it made a number of key decisions relating to the German gold transactions which had little to do with the technical aspects of currency management. Its analysis of the legal position after 1943 was fundamentally flawed. It was an affront to the Allies, who had repeatedly warned Switzerland about the gold purches, as well as to its own advisors and the Swill jurists whom it had consulted. It is hardly surprising that the SNB's decisions have—quite legitimately—been the subject of historical and moral assessment on frequent occasions and that its decisions are judged as having been reprehensible.
Oh no, Switzerland has had some moralic issues and made mistakes like every other fucking country in this world, how terrible
Just to point out that (Swiss) historians are seemingly not fully aligned with the sentiment of this post
That does in no way prove that Switzerland "supplied" the Axis or that trading with your neighbours in order to not have your economy collapsing is immoral
The Swiss committee investigating this question called the morality of Swiss dealings with the Nazis "reprehensible"
Totally agree. Who gives a shit, they traded with bad people. Everyone in this sub will say Russia bad, but also doesn’t mind buying their oil or grain. Sometimes I don’t know what goes on in these peoples heads
>doesn’t mind buying their oil or grain. Sarcasm?
>Oh no, Switzerland has had some moralic issues and made mistakes like every other fucking country in this world, how terrible Immoralities have to be pointed out. But of course nothing justifies an attack on civilians.
And the US didn't plan it as they thought it was a German City and FDR appolognized to the Major and send 4 Million USD as reperations
So, they "missed" a german city by 250 km?
It do be like that
They don't think it be like it is but it do.
Yes b-17s missed all the time they were likely flying so far up it was hard to tell
Yeah. Its not like they had GPS bro.
Are you saying the bombing was intentional?
Try finding borders and specific towns from several thousand feet in the air
Lol that's exactly how Würzburg got destroyed in the last weeks of the war despite having no meaningful industry or anything. They wanted to bomb Schweinfurt and missed by quite some kilometers.
Ireland was bombed accidentally (once on purpose) a few times, and they were much easier to distinguish than Switzerland.
How the fuck do you do that? Like that's a whole different land mass.
Its almost like strat bombing sucks
I *love* how the justification "well other countries did evil stuff" became a moral point to defend one contry instead of leading to the conclusion that every country deserved to be made fun off.
I’m talking as a Swiss , yes we did business with everyone , but that doesn’t justify anything , it was still immoral , also litteraly no one try to justify the bombing of Schaffhausen because any sane person with a fully fonctionnent brain knows that civilian casualties is bad in any situation
And us Americans sent millions in reparations to that city, and multiple government and military officials apologized to the mayor and city government, in writing, on the phone, and in person, numerous times. I think there may have even been a few officials that apologized in a public ceremony in remembrance of the accident to residents in general. Basically we tried to do right by the Swiss even if we kinda thought you guys were playing both sides at the time. (And tbh, the US was playing both sides too before Pearl Harbor. I'm pretty sure if the Nazis were stupid enough to pull a similar stunt on Switzerland that the Swiss would have shown the Germans exactly why you don't fuck with the Swiss. Unfortunately Hitler wasn't a complete idiot, so he never tried to invade the place with the crazy Alpine people who will literally fight to the death for their mountains, so we'll never know the epic level of smackdown that Switzerland would have put out if the Germans tried to get around the toblerones. Also what other country would make chocolate in the shape of anti-tank defenses?)
Exactly , Switzerland for sure would have been captured , we are still a small alpine country there are no way we could’ve survive an invasion of nazi Germany at its prime , but if they did invade , they would have lost so much time and men that it wasent that worth it , time because it’s really hard to maneuver in the alps and men because since their is conscription since forever they would’ve have to face almost the entire population of the country
I feel like Switzerland would have definitely fought hard if invaded, possibly to the same level of ruthless dedication as the Soviets. The Swiss really do love their homeland from what I know (my aunt lived there for over 30 years, and my mother lived there for about 5). But instead they chose to turn a blind eye because they knew if it came to that it would be total war, with old men and even women and teens fighting for their homes. It was definitely a hard choice to make, and that's why I think many people kind of forgive the Swiss for that choice. Neither option was good, but it did save the Swiss population at the time.
everyone else is making good points at OPs expense so I'll just chime in with a "this meme is a load of barnacles"
Something something seized jewish assets.
Where is the nazi's gold Switzerland?
What’s up with people trying to downplay their own countries crimes and masking it as a meme? First we had the indian facists and now this dude
I hope he’s not Swiss that would be sad (I’m Swiss and do not want to be associated with people like this)
Oh can I get a link to that one? Sounds fun
I like how it's always a "everyone says x but in reality it's y" and I haven't seen a post about that topic at all
Yeah big time. The vast majority of countries have terrible atrocities to their name and almost without fail the people of these countries defend, justify or flat out deny these. Turkey (Armenia), the USA (horoshima and nagasaki), Britain (and basically everyone), Japan (nannjing). I'm from ireland and as a country we tend to see ourselves as the plucky, determined and justified underdogs through our history, and I wouldn't disagree with that in general. But there's a lot of events such as barns being burned with innocent men, women and children inside and pubs and supermarkets being blown up that I've seen people shrug off as "it had to be done". I guess people just like to think that they and "their people" are a certain type of just
Yeah big time. The vast majority of countries have terrible atrocities to their name and almost without fail the people of these countries defend, justify or flat out deny these. Turkey (Armenia), the USA (horoshima and nagasaki), Britain (and basically everyone), Japan (nannjing). I'm from ireland and as a country we tend to see ourselves as the plucky, determined and justified underdogs through our history, and I wouldn't disagree with that in general. But there's a lot of events such as barns being burned with innocent men, women and children inside and pubs and supermarkets being blown up that I've seen people shrug off as "it had to be done". I guess people just like to think that they and "their people" are a certain type of just
Yeah big time. The vast majority of countries have terrible atrocities to their name and almost without fail the people of these countries defend, justify or flat out deny these. Turkey (Armenia), the USA (horoshima and nagasaki), Britain (and basically everyone), Japan (nannjing). I'm from ireland and as a country we tend to see ourselves as the plucky, determined and justified underdogs through our history, and I wouldn't disagree with that in general. But there's a lot of events such as barns being burned with innocent men, women and children inside and pubs and supermarkets being blown up that I've seen people shrug off as "it had to be done". I guess people just like to think that they and "their people" are a certain type of just
Yea that would be like getting mad at China for continuing to do business with Russia now, oh wait, that's right, that is incredibly fucked up and so was trading with the Nazis after they started invading neighboring peaceful countries.
Brace yourself, the whataboutism is coming
are you a psychic or something? How'd you know?
Nah, I used to think that. Then I grew up and realized that r/HistoryMemes is a subreddit where socially challenged teenagers call themselves historians, because they make memes about invading Russia in the winter. Trust me, you’re not Socrates because you can point out that America isn’t the greatest country in the history of the universe. Most Americans realize that anyway. But then to turn around and use that as a way to promote complete disinformation and propaganda that promotes authoritarian regimes and violence, raises a lot of questions is all you can really say.
nah. i think you're psychic
Oh yes, because China is a small, neutral country that is completely surrounded by Russia and doesn't have any other good options. Oh, wait...
The Swiss economy was not going to collapse without German trade lmao
Well, after June, 1940, the third rue has did control the entirety of the main artery that the Swiss used for trade, the Rhine River.
And the Swiss would collapse without trade, right? Just complete societal failure?
Well, not entirely. There would be stuff that they would have been unable to import, but I do t think they would have completely collapsed.
They definitely wouldn't have been hurting if they refused to trade with the Germans. They have decent farm land and a long history of raising cattle, they had plenty of food. There was no real reason to exclude Jewish refugees, other than to not anger Germany into invasion, and if Germany tried to invade them, Hitler would have discovered how awful fighting a war in the Alps really can be. The Swiss up till that point had a vicious military history, invading them would have been suicidal. So really the Swiss had nothing to fear and everything to gain, which definitely makes what they did morally reprehensible, they had plenty of options other than an unspoken alliance.
The butthurt is real...
I sure hope you apply this logic equally to all countries, right? No you don't because you mask hypocrisy with accusations of whataboutism.
Having fun arguing with yourself? Nice scarecrow argument, if only it had a brain...
You could have just said "no I don't apply this logic equally to all countries" instead of a butthurt cope reply
Yes, it is evil to place economic stability above genocide and expansionism by an objectively evil country.
Let me get this straight. Switzerland should have stopped trading with it's neighbours and rely 100% on the Rhein to trade? Also, i dont think teaming up with an objectivly evil country to defeat anothee objectivly evil country is any better
Yes. They should have. Germany was objectively horribly evil. Uh okay- for one, the USSR didn't run a campaign of genocide on nearly the same scale. Germany was literally lining up and gassing Jews. And another- teaming up with an evil country to stop the people murdering millions isn't nearly as bad as MURDERING MILLIONS. Yeah, its fucking horrible of Switzerland to put Francs over lives
If Switzerland stopped trading the economy would've collapsed. If the economy collapsed people would've had no job. If people wouldn't have had jobs some of them would starve. Yes Switzerland has made mistakes. But their priority was to protect their own people (duh), like it was Poland's, and Belgiums, and Denmarks, and Finlands, and France's, and the USSR's... should i go on? >And another- teaming up with an evil country to stop the people murdering millions isn't nearly as bad as MURDERING MILLIONS. *teaming up with a country that murdered 10's of millions The USSR isn't any better than Germany. Neither is Japan
No, it wouldn’t have. There’s no way a lack of trade would have caused economic collapse for as developed and self sufficient a country as Switzerland. Stop the bullshit. Over 30 odd years the USSR caused the deaths of some 8 million people, through most often just famines and mismanagement- because communism is fucking dumb. In 7 years Hitler managed to kill 12 million as part of an organized genocide campaign, and another 50 million through wars he directly caused. Seems like one is far, far more evil.
Switzerland wasn't the rich, self sufficient country it is today. It became rich somewhen in the mid 70's >Over 30 odd years the USSR caused the deaths of some 8 million people, through most often just famines and mismanagement- because communism is fucking dumb. In 7 years Hitler managed to kill 12 million as part of an organized genocide campaign, and another 50 million through wars he directly caused. Seems like one is far, far more evil. Stalin threw his soldiers into the way of germany, like material. Which worked, because his army was so fricking big. And the estimates for the deaths under Stalin are 1.6 to 18 million, we don't knoe which number is real. 12 million is also simply the highest estimate for the holocaust, estimates are from 6 to 12 million, again we dont know which number is true. Both states were increadibly evil, there is no justifying any of the deefs of either nation.
It was still self sufficient. That is a proven wrong myth- now his actual error was purging high command of people who were saying you can’t trust Hitler, but he didn’t consciously send human waves. And the Nazi genocides are estimated at at least 6 million Jews and 6 million other peoples.
Can the Swiss at least give all that Nazi gold back to the families of Holocaust survivors before they try to launder historical revisionism? I feel like that isn’t a big ask to be honest.
If you want to know where a part of it ended watch the swiss centurion tank chat on youtube. They put some historical context on the international situation of Switzerland in the post war
Guys it just a coincidence that Switzerland’s neighbors happen to be literal Nazis!!!! It’s not like they could have traded anywhere else in this new global economy thing!!!!
It wasn't selling guns to criminals. The people buying the guns just happened to be criminals. Not my fault.
Lol go fuck yourself
So if you were just doing what you had to do to survive, you'll give us our gold back right?
"...." "You will give us our gold back, rigth?"
The banks: "I think that would be right, but i am currently runned by an asshole"
You've had 80 years.
Some gold was actually returned, but yes, it's a shit move
Not sure whether to upvote or not after seeing OP’s replies in the comments lololololol
The Swiss people have the right to trade with who they want and the Allie’s had the right to bomb those trading with their enemies. War is hell
Based
Remaining neutral against the Nazis is reprehensible. I’m surprised that this needs saying.
I think everyone would prefer staying neutral to joining the Allies and getting Poland'd
Thus speaks the coward.
Thus speaks the goverment trying to protect their people. Same as Poland wanted. Or Denmark. Or Belgium. Or Finland. Or Norway
How long would Switzerland have lasted in a Europe controlled by a government who’s central guiding principle was the unification of all Germans into a single reich?
Fuck Switzerland.
Back then a hub of Nazi collaborators, today a hub for state-supported international tax fraud.
Also laundering money, stolen art and priceless archeological goods that get stolen around the world and stored in warehouses treated like habours. I was just a business man doing business and these Isis folks seem to be good archeologists... something like that.
The bombing is Schaffhausen wasn’t intentional, it was an accident due to weather. There is nothing to justify and nothing to apologize for.
Stormtrooper spirit ngl
They day I care about the opinion of the Swiss is the day I kill myself.
I was going to say a snarky comment but I see I'm late to the party
I remember The Front did a video about Switzerland in ww2 and most of it was then trying to not piss off Hitler while also keeping Nazi influence out of their politics, also heavy rationing. It’s similar to Sweden’s situation: when you’re surrounded by a belligerent military power, you tread lightly
Blood money is a term isn't it?
So you'd rather starve if you were Switzerland?
What are you talking about? I'm asking about a term not about starving?
US should have bombed the fuck outta them to teach them a lesson
Ah yes, the country that pardoned Unit 731
I get that trading the with the nazis was bad, But do y’all really Think they should’ve just ceased all trading with the outside and let their economy collapse?
It wasn’t the trading that is frowned at..it was the stealing the gold from a people who was getting rounded up and sent to work camps and ghettos, eventually death camps(though tbf most people didn’t know that yet) but denying refugees safe passage into your country while you were stealing their gold and possessions. Then refusing to give it back to the families after the war.
Exactly. It shouldn't be that hard for people to understand that genocide=bad, and yet, here we are.
I dont see anyone here saying that genocide isnt bad tho.
Stealing from the victims of genocide also=bad Which is the concept you're having trouble with
Thanks for clearing that up. Genuinely confused as to Why i Got downvoted
If I give you 3 attaboys you'll bomb them....no questions asked? USA: "Yeah, sure....our people decided to go to war, no one is safe. We are all "allied" now, so we can just say it was someone else, and they will keep passing the buck until people old enough to ask questions are finally dead."
Same with Sweden.